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Meep
30th December 2005, 3:26 AM
What are your opinions on writing psychic types? Do you image them to be sly, able to take over an opponent's own body, or as weaklings who can barely lift a straw, and have to rely on their (perhaps weak) mental powers?

For everyone it's different. You may think of an Abra as a short, wimpy creature who has not that many mental powers, while your friend sees the same Abra as a strong beast, able to rip apart enemies using only the mind.

I write my psychic types as being very, very strong. In my opinion, many, if not all, have at least the abillity to 'talk' inside of someone's head. The stronger ones could take over an opponent's mind, making them run into a wall, hit itself, ect.

Orion-Sama
30th December 2005, 3:37 AM
I treat Psychic Pokémon as Pokémon that can use their mind powers as energy. Only a few have full-on capacity of controlling their opponents and every attack thrown at them. Unexperienced Psychics attack with weak mind waves and small orbs/rings of blue energy formed by their mental power.

Also, the state of the mind is important for when a Psychic Pokémon is battling. Dark Pokémon are frightening by nature, and thusforth, Psychics can't keep their mind in focus at all, as it's driven by their fears. A weakened Psychic Pokémon can't perform as well as a healthy Psychic too.

They're quite hard to portray, seeing how the Anime has them as all-powerful and pretty much omnipotent. I prefer to take a more Game-based focus myself. They're strong, but not invincible, as the Anime makes them stand out as...

Negrek
30th December 2005, 5:36 AM
I generally have them as being on the strong side. They have the inherent ability to speak telepathically, and most can lift or manipulate small objects even in their weakest form. As they become stronger, they are able to actually look into other's thoughts and detect them from a distance. It takes a very powerful psychic and a very weak-minded individual for them to have any degree of control over their target's physical actions, though attacking emotions, playing upon fears, and the like.

Also, I don't have them attack with psychic energy or the like; while they can lift and manipulate objects telekinetically, when directly attacking an opponent they usuall use their powers to trigger pain centers in the foe's brain and cause neurological distress--while little physical damage occurs, it is far from pleasant.

But even physically, not all psychic pokemon are weak. Take, for example, medicham.

Ash_Junior
30th December 2005, 6:44 AM
for me, Psychics are strong. Even ridiculously so.

in my fics, they are the ones that put up Barriers/Force Fields that hold back attacks in my massive battles, they coordinate said large battles, they're the only translators between Pokes and humans, and they are copmetent long-range (Psybeam)/short-range (Psychic) attackers. Plus, teleportation (especially for covert insertion) has always fascinated me with the Psychics, so I use that a lot.

I do consider Psychics to be the ultimate type. Not even Dark types can overcome them if they're all linked together Psychically (they don't share power with each other or any of that other nonsense, but they do have an EXTREME coordination that lets them plan things to the minutest detail....

thus letting them defeat Dark types, even though they're weak to 'em.

because in my book....excellent tactics>extreme strength

:D

my two creds

Iveechan
30th December 2005, 10:13 AM
I treat Psychic as a regular Pokemon. I really REALLY hate the concept of a god-modding type, one who's all powerful and above you. It just reminds me of being in school and having to deal with holier than thou people (I tend to dislike mystical Pokemon and favor down to earth types anyhow). I made a Hitmonchan beat the crap out of Kadabra out of spite (the chan was very well-trained though).

PDL
30th December 2005, 4:52 PM
it's weird how the star of my fic is a psychic type, yet she hasn't done anything psychic typish yet o_O;

The Big Al
30th December 2005, 5:01 PM
I treat them like any other Pokemon. They attack the mind instead of the body. However, they can't defend themselves while attacking because all their faculties are geared towards attacking. they have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Eternal Daydreamer
30th December 2005, 5:10 PM
I think Physic types are powerful. Or at least some of them are. Such Alakazam. But others such as Hypno and Ralts (a really young one) cannot live as long or get as powerful.

Ash_Junior
30th December 2005, 5:53 PM
er...if you look at their stats, Hypno are better suited to taking a physical pounding...

although Alakazam are more powerful in the final special strength department

Hypno rule!

btw, what I meant was that Psychics are a lot more versatile and used for a lot more stuff than any other type in my fics.

not that they were legendary pwoerful or anything.

they're jsut as powerful as any other Poke, but they're a lot more valuable.

Evanji Axu
30th December 2005, 6:13 PM
I imagine Psychic types to use their psychic powers as energy, attacking with blasts and beams, putting up invisible barriers, telepathy, and teleporting. They are somewhat stronger than other types, but their attacks take a long time to prepare. Because Dark types are opportunistic and sly, they take advantage of this and strike while the attack is charging, breaking the psychic-type's concentration, hence the weakness to Dark. Also, Dark types are tough-minded and independent, and can resist a psychic blast with ease.

A near-godly psychic could take over a weak-minded Pokemon and manipulate them like a puppet, but most can only induce nervous-system-related symptoms like hallucinations and headaches. They may be smart, but there are other Pokemon, like Dragonite and Ninetales, who are just as intelligent, if not more so.

+Chaos Blade+
30th December 2005, 6:22 PM
As for me, having a Pokemon with Psi abilities is great. If you are using an Alakazam, you can make it walk by letting it levitate in a Zen-like position, and as you walk, it waits, and teleports to where you're going to [Remember kids, it has an Intelligence Quotient of 5,000]. It uses its spoons to cause serious damage - it can lift opponents just by thinking about lifting.

Sounds pretty powerful to me.

Nylf
30th December 2005, 6:57 PM
In my fics Psychics are a rarity for use. In EL, Drake's team has 0 psychic Pokemon, or in fact anything that can use Psychic attacks. Suila as well, zip even in the pseudo psychic(Gorebyss) department. The third MC will have a Metagross but he uses it as more of an offensive tank, preferring it's physical attacks such as Meteor Mash over stuff like Psychic. The only even slightly regular character who is a Psychic Pokemon is a Pokemon from Zel's past, and she generally only appears in flash backs and in chapter 6. She will not be uber whatever. Her psychic powers are used to allow telepathy, teleportation, and blasts of energy(Psybeam, Psychic). And that's it. Psychics are just another Pokemon type, though for the purposes of NL, NH, I treat them less Psychic more as light, as most attacks, excluding Solarbeam, that revolve around light are Psychic or used by psychics.

Or to put it simply, brain=bron. They aren't uber, they just use a differant elemental source for their power than Fighting/Dragon/Normal etc.

Kiyohime
30th December 2005, 7:06 PM
Meh, I see them as a typical Pokemon, just able to use their mind as a weapon the same way Fire types use fire as a weapon. They have their own limitations and strengths like all other Pokemon. Metagross is incredibly strong, but he'll be destroyed by a hefty Fire Blast if he doesn't manage to get up a barrier in time. It's also all about how well they were trained.

mindripper
30th December 2005, 7:30 PM
Logically speaking, a psychic entity would be stronger than a physically efficient entity of the same attributes, ie same physical resistances for sure. Look to comics for the best possible analogy. Leaving cosmic entities, ie silver surfer, galactus, thanos etc aside, we quickly find that psychics are often the most powerful mutants around. Sue Storm is almost safely regarded as the most powerful member of F4, while X-man pretty much hammers everyone in the x-men verse.

Aside from comics, a psychic's power comes from the fact that resistance to mental intrusion is likely to be lower to that of a physical attack, esp if psychic entities are realistically going to kill once given a chance. How? Why not a simple forcefield within the victim's body, expanding outwards? Or telekinesis, releasing the victim from a height? That leaves out mental takeovers and psychic energies converted into concussive forces. Saying that a psychic's abilities lie in attack is incorrect, for defensive abilities as well as offensive abilities should have corresponding ties, depending on an entity's psychic abilities. Speaking in RPG lingo, if a level 60 elemental or physical user was to go up against a level 60 psychic, I would put my money on the psychic, and probably win 99 out of 100. Beside offensive abilities, of which I have only touched the tip of the iceberg, we go on to defensive abilities like teleportation and the formation of barriers. Physical entities should not even trouble a psychic, as premeditated teleporation takes care of any problems. Elemental attacks only travel as fast as the attack allows, and there is a lag time to charge the attack. For example, even if fire were to move at mach speed, about 330m/s, charge-up time notwithstanding, all a psychic needs to do is to think about setting up a barrier, and it's there. How fast do cognitive synapses allow electrical impulses to travel? Speed of light, or approximately 300000000m/s. Do the math. If both entites are of a similar level, there is little chance anything can get past the barrier at all.

The barrier might not last! Of course, nothing is infinite. however, a mental contraption borne of concentration is a lot easier to maintain than elemental attacks. How long do you think Squirtle can hold a watergun? In the game, and to a larger extent, anything requiring more than a 10 second victory for psychic entities 99% of the time, gameplay mechanics, as well as storyline techs are introduced.

Nylf
30th December 2005, 7:49 PM
Man am I glad Maths never was a problem. mindripper probably just made the most valid point to make me think. As I said, my view on psychic powers was limited as I rarely need to touch on anything more than telepathy. Though of course, with the elemental vs psychic argument, is there a differance? Psyche(I think that's right) is the energy of the mind manifested into various physical and ethereal forms, and elemental energy is natures power being manipulated into various physical and ethereal forms. Now, how does something manipulate nature? The same way a psychic manipualtes their own energy. Therefore, in my eyes, wielding psychic energy is simply wielding a closer source of energy than nature. So, for my personal favourite example, a Combusken vs a Kirlia, in this fight a Combusken would be wielding a physical form of psyche which manifests as it's fighting element and a physical form of elemental energy in the form of it's fire element, while the Kirlia would be wielding both a physical and ethereal form of psyche as it is psychic type. Psychic power is wielding the mind, fighting power is wielding the body and elemental power is wielding nature. Ki, chi and something else are outer examples. Ki is the power of the mind made wieldable, like psychic power in Pokemon, while chi is the power of the body made wieldable like fighting power in Pokemon. So let's try an example.

A Kirlia uses Reflect, using it's mind's energy to create a barrier of energy. Takes less than a second.

A Combusken counters with Brick Break, using it's body's energy to smash through the barrier and land a punch/kick. Takes less than a second to get that energy where needed.

There is no differance in how anything is wielded or what it is. In the end it all comes down to the wielder. A Combusken with a large amount of experience could take down a Kirlia in seconds, and vice versa. I have no justified a little better my views on Psychic power. It is simply another way to fight. It's why Dark/Psychic/Fighting form a trio, Dark=Nature, borrowing the power of darkness to attack, Psychic=Ki, wielding the very power of the mind to attack and Fighting=chi, wielding the body's energy to attack.

Nylf
30th December 2005, 7:50 PM
Man am I glad Maths never was a problem. mindripper probably just made the most valid point to make me think. As I said, my view on psychic powers was limited as I rarely need to touch on anything more than telepathy. Though of course, with the elemental vs psychic argument, is there a differance? Psyche(I think that's right) is the energy of the mind manifested into various physical and ethereal forms, and elemental energy is natures power being manipulated into various physical and ethereal forms. Now, how does something manipulate nature? The same way a psychic manipualtes their own energy. Therefore, in my eyes, wielding psychic energy is simply wielding a closer source of energy than nature. So, for my personal favourite example, a Combusken vs a Kirlia, in this fight a Combusken would be wielding a physical form of psyche which manifests as it's fighting element and a physical form of elemental energy in the form of it's fire element, while the Kirlia would be wielding both a physical and ethereal form of psyche as it is psychic type. Psychic power is wielding the mind, fighting power is wielding the body and elemental power is wielding nature. Ki, chi and something else are outer examples. Ki is the power of the mind made wieldable, like psychic power in Pokemon, while chi is the power of the body made wieldable like fighting power in Pokemon. So let's try an example.

A Kirlia uses Reflect, using it's mind's energy to create a barrier of energy. Takes less than a second.

A Combusken counters with Brick Break, using it's body's energy to smash through the barrier and land a punch/kick. Takes less than a second to get that energy where needed.

There is no differance in how anything is wielded or what it is. In the end it all comes down to the wielder. A Combusken with a large amount of experience could take down a Kirlia in seconds, and vice versa. I have now justified a little better my views on Psychic power. It is simply another way to fight. It's why Dark/Psychic/Fighting form a trio, Dark=Nature, borrowing the power of darkness to attack, Psychic=Ki, wielding the very power of the mind to attack and Fighting=chi, wielding the body's energy to attack. Man I feel dull.

The Big Al
30th December 2005, 9:07 PM
Then their's the mental capacity. Creating a barrier able to hold off another's attack takes a lot of concentration and mental power. Not mention the Abra line seems to suffer from severe physical atropheed making them very delicate and unable to take damage. So they're entirely reliant on their psychic abilities for both offense and defense.

Then is also the possibilty of pokemon gaining a resistance to psychic attacks through training. So just because the mind can be a powerful weapon, doesn't make Psychics all powerful. Don't forget, Dark's a completely immune to psychic attacks.

mindripper
30th December 2005, 9:56 PM
Hey Al, I understand what you are trying to make out, and I realise that concentration is needed, in the same vein as the logic that concentration is needed on an elemental user's part as well, to carry on with an attack. However, ask yourself this: If I had negligible physical abilities, would I not pretty damn well make sure that my actual assets are utilised at an optimum level? Does not make sense that a pure psychic would develop other attributes save their own psionic abilities. Atrophy or not is beside the point, as mental capacity is waht a psychic needs, and real-world studies have shown the limitless capacity a mind has when properly attuned.


Then is also the possibilty of pokemon gaining a resistance to psychic attacks through training. So just because the mind can be a powerful weapon, doesn't make Psychics all powerful. Don't forget, Dark's a completely immune to psychic attacks.

As I have said, is it not logical to assume that certain gameplay elements combine to stem the power of psychics, or any other overly dominant character? Another comics analogy. Storm and wolverine. The latter does not stand an ice cube's chance in hell with the former, with flight and elemental abilities meaning it is only a matter of time before Wolverine is frozen, charred by lightning, etc. however, gameplay mechanics in the x-men games gives Wolverine a fair chance against the former. True in the game? Yes. Possible in comics canon? Not really. The same applies here. I do not see a flying pokemon ever losing to a fighting pokemon which has no range attacks of note. Logically, it is nigh impossible. A charizard would just go for an airborne starbucks, before flamethrowering the ground artillery style. A flying pokemon may get tired, yes, but I am willing to wager that ducking around and avoiding ranged attacks with splash AOE is far more tiresome. In the game, we only get a "resistance". A fair reflection? No. Logical? Possibly.

Eternal Daydreamer
30th December 2005, 10:05 PM
This discussion could go on for a while. -.-; I agree with Mindripper because I am mostly a logical person when I'm not deciphiring hidden meanings of things.

About the Hypno Vs. Alakazam thing, I never said Hypno wasn't good. They are and I will have two (albiet very old) Hypnos in my story: "The Chocolate Factory". But in that story, it's more of a parable/parody so that may not be the best example.

Elemental Charizam
30th December 2005, 10:10 PM
Psychics aren't particularly powerful in my view, though they are unusual. They can use their element to effect the body through telekinesis or orbs/beams of energy, or attack the mind through telepathy. Most pokemon are a little more susceptible to them if they attack in the last manner simply because they have less resistance to it, as it is unique among psychics.

But unless very strong, a Pschic type would'nt attack the mind directly, only project ideas into their oponents head, like being tired (hypnosis), confused (confusion) or blocking the way to certain attacks (imprison). Once the connection is in place though, it can be used to attack the psychic back... something Dark types can natrually do, and others can learn.

Psychic types are easily knocked out by physical attack as well, so all a strong oponent needs to do is land a few hits on the opponent. Even oone would probably break the concentration of the Psychic.

Telekinesis can't pass through the skin of any pokemon, either. So a forcefield pushing from the inside would be impossible.

mindripper
30th December 2005, 10:40 PM
But unless very strong, a Pschic type would'nt attack the mind directly, only project ideas into their oponents head, like being tired (hypnosis), confused (confusion) or blocking the way to certain attacks (imprison). Once the connection is in place though, it can be used to attack the psychic back... something Dark types can natrually do, and others can learn.

Are we not taling about pokemon of the approximate same levels here? To pay a psychic back in his/her/its own coin, the opponent must have psychic capabilities as well. You cannot literally fight fire with fire if a squirtle cannot do a flamethrower, is that not true? You speak of a connection between two entities. I assume that is a dark pokemon's attack, the name of which eludes me right now. However, as I have already said, attacking a psychic requires psychic abilities, and I think that perhaps we should view this logically, and not by game mechanics, as dark pokemon were obviously engineered to counter psychic pokemon from a game point of view. Why else would a fighting pokemon be doubly effective against a normal type?


But unless very strong, a Pschic type would'nt attack the mind directly, only project ideas into their oponents head, like being tired (hypnosis), confused (confusion) or blocking the way to certain attacks (imprison). Once the connection is in place though, it can be used to attack the psychic back... something Dark types can natrually do, and others can learn.

Hmm, is mental intrusion then not an attack on the mind? Also, if I were a psychic, why would I want to clobber anyone with my fists when I do so much more effectively with my mind?

As for dark pokemon, I still fail to understand the "connection" you refer to. If they are psionically competent, I concede the point that said connection can indeed be made, but you concede the point that non-psychics cannot attack a psychic entity psionically. If they are not, I ask you to look away from that attack and logically tell everyone how such an accomplishment is possible. If you refer to the connection made when a psychic intrudes on another's mind, then it applies for every entity, not just a "dark" entity. If you do not, I await your logic.


Psychic types are easily knocked out by physical attack as well, so all a strong oponent needs to do is land a few hits on the opponent. Even oone would probably break the concentration of the Psychic.

Yes they are. However, how logical is it that a fighting pokemon can land a hit on a teleporting Alakazam, for instance? Also, you forget the fact I mentioned in my previous post that psychic abilites are simply activated faster than anything else due to speed of thought over reaction and building up of an attack for any other entity. A fighting pokemon has to pull back a fist or **** a leg, and I would be amused if a psychic pokemon could not think up something quicker than the time it takes to draw a fist back, rotate slightly, and strike. If you know anything about martial arts, you will probably agree with me there. The little thing about teleporting to a distance before using psychic attacks pretty much works as well.


Telekinesis can't pass through the skin of any pokemon, either. So a forcefield pushing from the inside would be impossible.

Telekinesis is the psychic movement of an object, so I do not see what it has to do with forcefields. Unless you count psychic barriers as telekinesis. All mental abilities can be activated regardless of whether the user can see the target at all, because they work on a point in space, and that point exists whether or not it can be seen and whether or not an object is occupying that space. More comics examples. Nightcrawler never teleports where he cannot see. Why? not because he cannot, because his teleportation teleports him to a place projected and visualised by his mind, ie sight has nothing to do with it, but if he teleports into prior occupied space, he dies, together with the organism he teleports into. Any psychic in the Marvel canon who is worth his/her salt, ie not a bottomfeeder like the vulture, and who can create forcefields has at some point of time used that ability inside a person. Phoenix did it pretty well, and Sue storm nearly killed the human torch. Perhaps you reject the connection, but unless we look past the restrictions that the game places on abilities, we get nowhere. In the game, we take turns to attack. True in real life? True logically? I have stated some of what a psychic can logically do in any world, and backed it up with parallel examples. I believe that this discussion is over if an insistance on following game logic is forced. Otherwise, once anyone looks logically, mental powers always overcome physical and elemental ones.

Zerodius
30th December 2005, 11:22 PM
I see Psychic Pokemon as uber powerful personally, in my fics, and see things as "games want things to be fair but aren't necessarely logical"... and I prefer to cling to logic than to the games.

In short, while it is easy for a Fighting Pokemon to KO a Flying Pokemon in the games... not so in my fics!

Likewise, Psychic Pokemon are extremely powerful in my fics... in a way.

The Psychic ability is more or less the ability to wield ALL elements through manipulation of energy and objects as well as a possible mind-control and direct mental assault... but the problem is that Psychic Pokemon start off weaker than other Pokemon and rarely reach their full potential.

Also, Psychic Pokemon have two distinct weaknesses: Dark and Shadow Pokemon.

Dark Pokemon are Pokemon who are skilled with the shadows and who either have the mental strenght to resist Psychic assaults or have such chaotic ways of thinking that conventionnal Psychic abilities won't affect them.

Shadow Pokemon/Demons are actually made of Darkness or infused with them and as such, Psychic Pokemon cannot grasp the form of their souls thus meaning that they are completely immune to Psychic abilities.

Regarding Psychic abilities... I do not see Psychic as a single element but as a serie of elements that can be gathered in a single classification.

Basically, there are three types of Psychic abilities:

-telekinesis, which is the power to control matter with the mind. (Alakazam is skilled at this)

-energy-control or pure psychic energy control. (Gardevoirs specialize in this)

-mind-control, hallucinations, purely mental manipulation (Hypnos and Xatus use this type of Psychic abilities)

Apart from Legendary Pokemon, few are the Psychic Pokemon who actually control two or all three types of Psychic abilities. Also, unless the Psychic Pokemon in question is a Shadow Pokemon, a Demon, or has some special talent or training, Dark and Shadow Pokemon laugh at them usually... although, in this matter, Dark Pokemon don't really have a resistance ; it's just that their natural state of mind make them harder to target while most other Pokemon must train to reach such a state of mind.

Surprisingly, in my fics, a chaotic and unfocused mind is much harder to harm with Psychic abilities than a logical, focused one... which is why Dark Pokemon tend to shrug off Psychic blasts while Fighting Pokemon get KOed pretty quickly... but there are exceptions. With extensive training, some Dark Pokemon can actually be harmed with Psychic abilities and some Fighting Pokemon have developped a strong resistance to Psychic-based abilities (more often than not, the half-Psychic ones or those who focus more on the state of the mind than on physical training).

All in all... I don't know if what I said made sense but well... that's that for now.

Jem
31st December 2005, 12:16 AM
I like Psychic Pokemon myself, so I tend to think of them highly. But at the same time, I know a Psychic Pokemon has to be a certain strength before it is technically any good. If you have a new, weak Psychic Pokemon, obviously they won't be able to do much. But if you train it right, like with any Pokemon, it will become strong and able to do whatever you want it to do.

PDL
31st December 2005, 12:31 AM
technically, in pokemon, Psychic types are usually seen as the equivelent of characters with magic powers simlair to Harry Potter and such.

It may explain why there are many psychic legendaries... somewhat.

Of course it is kind of difficult to explain psychic power since it defies scientific reasoning most of the time...

not sure how this would help in the discussion though :\

Dilasc
31st December 2005, 12:37 AM
Psychics, the way I see it, are not all mental magic, they are artists, of sorts, at peace with themselves. As such, trying to read the mind of an evil (dark) Pokemon fills their head with evils, sins, angst, pain, and other horrors, which is why they cannot penetrate their mind without hurting themselves if they dare.

I had a small bit on this in my story. Basically, the almighty Lugia cannot pierce through to the minds of the Kertonmel demons, which are all (except for one) part dark. Doing so would fill the legendary's mind with sins, pains, and swiftly plummet it into a babbling, mind numbing state of pure insanity.

Elemental Charizam
31st December 2005, 12:49 AM
Are we not taling about pokemon of the approximate same levels here? To pay a psychic back in his/her/its own coin, the opponent must have psychic capabilities as well. You cannot literally fight fire with fire if a squirtle cannot do a flamethrower, is that not true? You speak of a connection between two entities. I assume that is a dark pokemon's attack, the name of which eludes me right now. However, as I have already said, attacking a psychic requires psychic abilities, and I think that perhaps we should view this logically, and not by game mechanics, as dark pokemon were obviously engineered to counter psychic pokemon from a game point of view. Why else would a fighting pokemon be doubly effective against a normal type?
The connection between the two pokemon is initiated by the Psychic pokemon upon attacking in anyway psionically. Unless the connection is severed instantly,the pokemon attacked can strike the Psychic pokemon through its own link. I.E:

Alakazam attempts to Hypnotize an Umbreon. To do so, they are connected psionically by the Alakazam. The connection is not one-way, and the Umbreon lashes out mentally (something it couldn't do unless linked) and forces the Alakazam to sever the connection.

In pop culture terms, think of what happend on Farscape recently, with the chip and blue empath.


Hmm, is mental intrusion then not an attack on the mind? Also, if I were a psychic, why would I want to clobber anyone with my fists when I do so much more effectively with my mind?


As for dark pokemon, I still fail to understand the "connection" you refer to. If they are psionically competent, I concede the point that said connection can indeed be made, but you concede the point that non-psychics cannot attack a psychic entity psionically. If they are not, I ask you to look away from that attack and logically tell everyone how such an accomplishment is possible. If you refer to the connection made when a psychic intrudes on another's mind, then it applies for every entity, not just a "dark" entity. If you do not, I await your logic.
True, any entity can strike back across the psychic connection, but it is instictual for dark pokemon to do so, and other types have to learn it, which very few do.


Yes they are. However, how logical is it that a fighting pokemon can land a hit on a teleporting Alakazam, for instance? Also, you forget the fact I mentioned in my previous post that psychic abilites are simply activated faster than anything else due to speed of thought over reaction and building up of an attack for any other entity. A fighting pokemon has to pull back a fist or **** a leg, and I would be amused if a psychic pokemon could not think up something quicker than the time it takes to draw a fist back, rotate slightly, and strike. If you know anything about martial arts, you will probably agree with me there. The little thing about teleporting to a distance before using psychic attacks pretty much works as well.
But you can't concentrate in that amount of time, can you? In the heat of battle, it could take over a minute to concentrate enough to fully acess psychic abilities of that nature. Obviously, a psychic would be trained to do so quicker, but when dealing with multiple blows it would be very very hard to stop them all in time. Teleporting would be a little easier, but the Psychic needs to see the place with its mind, and concentrate.



Telekinesis is the psychic movement of an object, so I do not see what it has to do with forcefields. Unless you count psychic barriers as telekinesis. All mental abilities can be activated regardless of whether the user can see the target at all, because they work on a point in space, and that point exists whether or not it can be seen and whether or not an object is occupying that space. More comics examples. Nightcrawler never teleports where he cannot see. Why? not because he cannot, because his teleportation teleports him to a place projected and visualised by his mind, ie sight has nothing to do with it, but if he teleports into prior occupied space, he dies, together with the organism he teleports into. Any psychic in the Marvel canon who is worth his/her salt, ie not a bottomfeeder like the vulture, and who can create forcefields has at some point of time used that ability inside a person. Phoenix did it pretty well, and Sue storm nearly killed the human torch. Perhaps you reject the connection, but unless we look past the restrictions that the game places on abilities, we get nowhere. In the game, we take turns to attack. True in real life? True logically? I have stated some of what a psychic can logically do in any world, and backed it up with parallel examples. I believe that this discussion is over if an insistance on following game logic is forced. Otherwise, once anyone looks logically, mental powers always overcome physical and elemental ones.
I never argued that you couldn't manipulate somehing psychically without sight. However, things do not simply appear and dissapear, in one form or another they have to cross the space between the two points. Unless you think psychics fold space or something...

In real life of course, there are no psychics. Your parallels are pointless; just because others believe the same as you makes it no more true. I could start a comic caled 'cfrt' where my view was true, then reference it here, but my argumentn would be no truer. In an case, I didn't think this was a debate in any case, merely our view. Things can be interpreted differently by different people. There is no ultimate truth in the matter.

Besides, a pokemon battle could technically be turn based in 'real life', with opponents striking each other with one attack at a time.Not that I ever said it was, but whatever.

Using our own example BTW, the human Torch is thousands of times more powerful than the others.... He can get so hot, we are led to believe, that he'd burn up the entire atmosphere.

Pinecone Tortoise
31st December 2005, 5:55 AM
I take a rather strange view of 'psychic' types and view their abilites simply as the manipulation of electricity at the atomic level. Essentially, I see psychic types as using their specially developed brains to produce electricty in a way that produces a reaction with other objects. They control the very particles of of matter, thus the secret to all the telekinesis, special effects, etc.

When interacting with other pokemon, I see their own minds producing a field of electricity that interacts with the other pokemon's mind and sends feedback that the psychic type can interpret to understand the basics of the other pokemon's thoughts/feelings/intentions. Obviously, this would not be a very specific field, or the psychic type would be in for an information overload. Not to mention that such detailed control is extremely difficult.

Which brings me to answering the question. Strong or weaklings? Depends on the amount of refinement in the psychic type's skills. If they can handle the extremely complex tasks with constant precision and stamina, then they qualify as 00ber in their own way. However, most cannot cope with the precision and strain of maintaining that precision to rise above mediocre. So yes, while the potential is there, most psychic types remain at a level akin to their fellow pokemon.

And on the Dark/Psychic type alignment? I see Dark types as having fur/minute scales/feathers that refract the light and play havoc with sight. But the refraction is specifically designed to create chaotic patterns among the light/atoms thingies so that the Psychic's 'electric field' is disrupted and no organised 'psychic' attack can penetrate through to the pokemon's actual body.

Thus too, is how 'Dark' attacks work. For Shadow Ball, the refraction angles are shifted to shape the 'chaotic field' into a spherical form which is then directed at the foe. The attack has an effect akin to an electric attack in that it burns and twists at the particles in the foe's body as the electricity between the attack and the foe intereacts. For Faint Attack, obviously, the refraction angles are shifted to conceal the Dark type's body whilst it approaches then claws/bites/hits/etc.

A slightly bizarre view, but one that amuses me.

Piney.
;204;;324;

Ash_Junior
31st December 2005, 6:58 AM
I see Psychic Pokemon as uber powerful personally, in my fics, and see things as "games want things to be fair but aren't necessarely logical"... and I prefer to cling to logic than to the games.

In short, while it is easy for a Fighting Pokemon to KO a Flying Pokemon in the games... not so in my fics!

Likewise, Psychic Pokemon are extremely powerful in my fics... in a way.

The Psychic ability is more or less the ability to wield ALL elements through manipulation of energy and objects as well as a possible mind-control and direct mental assault... but the problem is that Psychic Pokemon start off weaker than other Pokemon and rarely reach their full potential.

Also, Psychic Pokemon have two distinct weaknesses: Dark and Shadow Pokemon.

Dark Pokemon are Pokemon who are skilled with the shadows and who either have the mental strenght to resist Psychic assaults or have such chaotic ways of thinking that conventionnal Psychic abilities won't affect them.

Shadow Pokemon/Demons are actually made of Darkness or infused with them and as such, Psychic Pokemon cannot grasp the form of their souls thus meaning that they are completely immune to Psychic abilities.

Regarding Psychic abilities... I do not see Psychic as a single element but as a serie of elements that can be gathered in a single classification.

Basically, there are three types of Psychic abilities:

-telekinesis, which is the power to control matter with the mind. (Alakazam is skilled at this)

-energy-control or pure psychic energy control. (Gardevoirs specialize in this)

-mind-control, hallucinations, purely mental manipulation (Hypnos and Xatus use this type of Psychic abilities)

Apart from Legendary Pokemon, few are the Psychic Pokemon who actually control two or all three types of Psychic abilities. Also, unless the Psychic Pokemon in question is a Shadow Pokemon, a Demon, or has some special talent or training, Dark and Shadow Pokemon laugh at them usually... although, in this matter, Dark Pokemon don't really have a resistance ; it's just that their natural state of mind make them harder to target while most other Pokemon must train to reach such a state of mind.

Surprisingly, in my fics, a chaotic and unfocused mind is much harder to harm with Psychic abilities than a logical, focused one... which is why Dark Pokemon tend to shrug off Psychic blasts while Fighting Pokemon get KOed pretty quickly... but there are exceptions. With extensive training, some Dark Pokemon can actually be harmed with Psychic abilities and some Fighting Pokemon have developped a strong resistance to Psychic-based abilities (more often than not, the half-Psychic ones or those who focus more on the state of the mind than on physical training).

All in all... I don't know if what I said made sense but well... that's that for now.

*shudders*

I generally try to avoid the supernatural (well, I use scientific supernatural in my fics, a la numerous dimensions to the universe, but not the Heaven/Hell supernatural, as you seem to be getting at) in my fics. So Shadow Pokes would never be used in mine. personally, I think it's stupid.

I mean, they were invented for the TRADING CARDS! it isn't canon to me. It's not in the games (the originals), and it's not in the anime, I don't think.

*shudders*

and as for the "three types of Psychic abilities"

personally, I throw 'em all together and have any Psychic use all three.

but most of 'em in my fics are trained for army use, so they are trained to use the energy control to put up defensive forcefields that defend the entire army (however, I disagree with mindripper that they're fire and forget...it takes CONCENTRATION to keep the shield up), connect all the minds of the army together so they can fight as a much more cohesive and more efficient army, defend against Psychic mental invasions by opposing forces, and to make Psychic mental attacks against enemy forces.

In addition, they CAN use Telekinesis, if need be, but it'srarely needed, as the other types are the heavy hitters.

and yes, I agree that Dark types could cut through Psychics like butter, but when deployed with supporting types, they're nigh unstoppable if the Psychic and their companions are properly trained.

HOWEVER, I don't agree with your assessment that Dark Types are



Dark Pokemon are Pokemon who are skilled with the shadows and who either have the mental strenght to resist Psychic assaults or have such chaotic ways of thinking that conventionnal Psychic abilities won't affect them.

I think it's genetic, and that they're just naturally not affected by them, much as polar bears aren't affected by cold because of their fur/fat. maybe that's a bad example, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at here.

same thing with all types--they get their abilities because of their genetics. They all have the potential for all types (thus the Hidden Power technique), but different species have more of a certain type as a dominant type. This would allow for two, three, or even four major types (primary or secondary).

personally, I find this aspect rather fascinating, along with the possibilities it would open up.

back on topic, and speaking purely as a single combatant, I'd say that Psychics would win over half of their battles, due to the afore-mentioned force fields, teleportation, and whatever offensive ability they've got.

*shrugs*

my two creds.

mindripper
31st December 2005, 10:32 AM
The connection between the two pokemon is initiated by the Psychic pokemon upon attacking in anyway psionically. Unless the connection is severed instantly,the pokemon attacked can strike the Psychic pokemon through its own link.

IE psychically. No way you can lash out at a mind, whether or not a connection is made, unless the other entity has psychic abilities as well. Is not a psychic ability all about making a connection to another mind? For example, hypnotism, a very real, albeit watered form of telepathy, forms a mental connection between hypnotist and subject, with the latter given mental stimuli. However, how many times have you heard of a subject having similar access and ability to mentally stimulate the hypnotist in kind? We're talking real life here.



Alakazam attempts to Hypnotize an Umbreon. To do so, they are connected psionically by the Alakazam. The connection is not one-way, and the Umbreon lashes out mentally (something it couldn't do unless linked) and forces the Alakazam to sever the connection.

How is this lashing done if not psychically? You are basically admitting that dark pokemon have psychic abilities as well when you say something like that. Also, immediate mental trauma can be caused instead of stimuli, rendering the "connection" part, even if it can be manipulated by the victim, useless if the victim is under mental stress from pain already.




True, any entity can strike back across the psychic connection, but it is instictual for dark pokemon to do so, and other types have to learn it, which very few do.

Again, please let me know how you lash out at a psychic's mind if you are not psychically inclined in the first place. You cannot learn to be psychic-- you either have it or not. Resistance to mental intrusion is possible, but requires concentration on the victim's part, and just boils down to a matter of time before the psychic makes a breakthrough. Resistance to mental trauma through psychic attacks is impossible, unless one is psychic.




But you can't concentrate in that amount of time, can you? In the heat of battle, it could take over a minute to concentrate enough to fully acess psychic abilities of that nature. Obviously, a psychic would be trained to do so quicker, but when dealing with multiple blows it would be very very hard to stop them all in time. Teleporting would be a little easier, but the Psychic needs to see the place with its mind, and concentrate.

You judge a psychic's mental capabilities with a non-psychic's viewpoint. "Could" is not good enough for an argument, as a Blastoise "could" also take a pretty long time to get a watergun going. Perhaps from anime it is not the case, but then and again how many times have we seen a psychic from the anime taking a minute to do anything at all?

Huh? A barrier encompasses the user, so why would stopping multiple blows be any harder? i assume you are talking about a fighting pokemon. To land two seperate blows instantaneously is pretty much impossible, unless one forgoes most of the physical power behing the blow. Try punching with both fists and see. Dropkicks are possible, but anyone trying that will be toast in the recovery time.


I never argued that you couldn't manipulate somehing psychically without sight. However, things do not simply appear and dissapear, in one form or another they have to cross the space between the two points. Unless you think psychics fold space or something...

So you might be saying that they turn into a fly and scoot across to the other point? jk. Well, as we both agree that teleportation is already an ability a psychic would possess, I would like to hear what you think is the means of getting from point A to B. Let me explain using nightcrawler again and link it to reality. Nightcrawler opens portals to an alternate reality in which the spatial-temporal framework is different from ours, and returns via portals. Real-life? Look at research done on certain phenomena. Vortices etc. You will quickly realise that the folding of physical space is not as farfetched, albeit currently impossible and perhaps impossible in the future as well. However, if teleportation is already justified to exist, it does not matter how a psychic gets from A to B. As long as in intangible form, nothing anything can do to stop it. If you believe it becomes a fly, I rest my case.


In real life of course, there are no psychics. Your parallels are pointless; just because others believe the same as you makes it no more true. I could start a comic caled 'cfrt' where my view was true, then reference it here, but my argumentn would be no truer. In an case, I didn't think this was a debate in any case, merely our view. Things can be interpreted differently by different people. There is no ultimate truth in the matter.

There are no comic type psychics. Mind-reading, OOB travel, telepathy, telekinesis and mental rejuvenation have all been documented in reality by scientists better versed than you or me. Poltergeists, the sole supernatural phenomena to be generally accepted in the scientific world to be real, are actually results of the human subconscious, usually pertaining to teenagers under hormonal stress.

However, the point is that we are talking about real-life in the sense that said battle takes place in reality, not in the game continuum. Comics are great parallels, because they give insight into what a psychic can do with full utilisation of their abilities. It does not happen too often in comics as othe characters would be killed off pretty quickly. For example, Spiderman bench presses ten tons (already canon), and yet he is depicted as one who pulls his punches because he does not want to kill anybody. Put a psychic in real life, with real logic and lack of game or story mechanics to pull him/her/it down, and it will win almost every time. A simple usage of telekinesis, to restrict the flow of blood to the brain, and goodnight. I don't see how anything can block that.


Using our own example BTW, the human Torch is thousands of times more powerful than the others.... He can get so hot, we are led to believe, that he'd burn up the entire atmosphere.

I assume you are referring to the movie? If so, Sue pretty much contaied it, did she not? Even in comics, the "supernova" takes time to build, and he would be finished by then. Perhaps a slowly constricting forcefield...