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View Full Version : PokeShipping Vs. AdvanceShipping Debate Thread



Swifty
23rd January 2006, 5:26 PM
I'm posting this thread for reserve, in case one of us on either side runs into "that time of month again" and need to lash out against a poor hapless Poke/AdvanceShipper. I don't want Kagome what's-her-face (Whatever. I don't watch Inuyasha :P ) to have the honor of posting a new debate thread.

Ground covered in the last debate thread. Please review (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=93631) before posting:

- Implications of Misty staying at Ash's house before he comes back from Hoenn and what that means when taking Japanese societal norms into account.
- Misty's line in A Date For Delcatty regarding an unstated love interest.
- Misty's statement to a Luvdisc saying that it must not give up on love which could very well reflect Misty's affection for Ash.
- Debate over if no hints for a ship means it's no longer canon.
- Implications of Sid liking May.
- Implications of Drew liking May.

I don't want to see any truthiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness) in this thread, peoples. With that covered, I guess we're set. GO FORTH AND EXPERIENCE THE CLASHING OF BONE AND SINEW.

Meganium Ex
23rd January 2006, 9:01 PM
Uhh...I asked Kiori to close the old one I made, but I was still gonna restart it, I just wasn't online at the time :/

BTW, who said I wasn't gonna restart it? You shoulda have asked me first to make sure I wasn't gonna remake it, but meh

intergalactic platypus
23rd January 2006, 9:35 PM
Meganium XD, it doesn't matter who did and didn't remake it. The only difference is whose name appears in the threads title thingy. Now time to slay the shippers! Be warned cause in this debate I don't take either side really; I'm here for fun so I'll be criticizing both of your sides

Rex Kamex
23rd January 2006, 10:44 PM
Rats... I wanted to restart it... (at least consulting Meganium XD first). Oh well, as long as this thread doesn't turn into the last one, I'll be happy. (Aw, who am I kidding?)

I personally wanted Ash and Misty to get together before May came along. I think that the anime, at the beginning, showed lots of hints for something to happen between Ash and Misty. The problem was that the hints have been decreasing to barely anything. That's why I've been wondering if the idea for Ash and Misty went with the idea about the GS Ball.

About Misty's statement about not giving up for love, what did Misty say, exactly? I'd like it if someone stated what she said in the Japanese version of the show, but the dub would work too. No matter what she said, anybody could say something about not giving up on love.

(By the way, I'd like to see Ash and May get together, but I'm not what the writers think of that idea.)

Alfonso
23rd January 2006, 10:48 PM
Uhh...I asked Kiori to close the old one I made, but I was still gonna restart it, I just wasn't online at the time :/

BTW, who said I wasn't gonna restart it? You shoulda have asked me first to make sure I wasn't gonna remake it, but meh

You requested for your thread to be closed. It was closed, and nobody had any idea that you were going to restart it. Therfore, Swifty was in his right to make a new thread- He doesn't have to 'ask' or 'report' to you. It's tough that it was remade without your consent.

The Red Butterfly
23rd January 2006, 11:03 PM
OK well either way the thread is re-opened so who wants to start the debate????????? I say I don't think they're gonna put Ash and May together because They already put hints towards her and Drew, they ALSO already put hints for Ash and Misty!!

STJ
23rd January 2006, 11:04 PM
I was just wondering, is there really anything to discuss which hasn't already been discussed to death?

The Red Butterfly
23rd January 2006, 11:10 PM
Well were just continuing where it left off, but baisclly a lot has been discussed to death!!!

Alfonso
23rd January 2006, 11:18 PM
I was just wondering, is there really anything to discuss which hasn't already been discussed to death?

No.

Nothing new to discuss whatsoever.

Pointless really, unless Advanceshippers other than Cybercubed would like to get off their arse and frikking help him out in defending the Advanceshipping line.

Swifty
23rd January 2006, 11:47 PM
You shoulda have asked me first to make sure I wasn't gonna remake it, but meh Well, I did it anyway. I guess it's time for me to be immature about it:

SUCKS TO BE YOU.

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 12:00 AM
OK well either way the thread is re-opened so who wants to start the debate????????? I say I don't think they're gonna put Ash and May together because They already put hints towards her and Drew, they ALSO already put hints for Ash and Misty!!

I'm here to back CyberCubed up^^ personally this is my opinion.....POKESHIPPING HAPPEND.......But it's dead now so the writers stuck Misty with Tracey. Now its all AdvanceShipping Vs. ContestShipping. and chances are Advanceshipping will win^^.

intergalactic platypus
24th January 2006, 12:50 AM
Satoshi EX, can you please back up your statement with examples of real Ash/May hints? And no most "hints" for the ship won't suffice. So please do us a favor and instead of saying you think it will happen then please explain why. What makes you believe Ash and May were ever written as a couple?

Lady Barbara
24th January 2006, 12:53 AM
...so the writers stuck Misty with Tracey...
Did they really? From what little I've seen, there's not much evidence for Orangeshipping.

Alfonso
24th January 2006, 12:59 AM
Did they really? From what little I've seen, there's not much evidence for Orangeshipping.

This is Pokeshipping vs. Advanceshipping, not Pokeshipping vs. Orangeshipping.

Orangeshipping seemed like a huge OMFG HI I'M HERE to me in the BF episodes. But I guess they were overshadowed by Japanese cultural references and the 'Misty waiting' hint, eh. :rolleyes:

intergalactic platypus
24th January 2006, 1:05 AM
Did they really? From what little I've seen, there's not much evidence for Orangeshipping.
That doesn't matter. This isn't an orangeshipping debate thread, and the writers seem to be making more of a possibility then before. Before people would have laughed it off but now it has basis of sorts. Anyway, as I said earlier I'll be fighting you pokeshippers but the people I'm really itching to argue with are the advanceshippers due to my contempt for that ship

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 1:12 AM
okay cranky but tell me when was the last time wisty winked at ash or should I go staight to the donphan episode^^

Alfonso
24th January 2006, 1:14 AM
okay cranky but tell me when was the last time wisty winked at ash or should I go staight to the donphan episode^^

What the hell does winking have to do with anything? I wink at my female friends, when we're discussing certain things. Doesn't mean I want to get in their pants though.

Who the hell is Wisty? Wasumi's sister I suppose.

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 1:25 AM
I meant misty ^^'

And I mean when May says "Love is a wonderful thing!" and winks at Ash

Lady Barbara
24th January 2006, 1:33 AM
This is Pokeshipping vs. Advanceshipping, not Pokeshipping vs. Orangeshipping.
I can read thread titles, you know. He stated that Pokéshipping was dead. I pointed out how that's not necessarily the case since there's not much evidence that Misty has moved on and likes someone else.

Kiori
24th January 2006, 1:34 AM
I meant misty ^^'

And I mean when May says "Love is a wonderful thing!" and winks at Ash

..So? Just because she said it to Ash and winked at him, doesn't mean it's a hint. Can be cute, subtle, but a hint? I don't think so. Even if you were to ask me what would've happened if she did that to Drew (as another scenario), I wouldn't think it counts as a hint unless he did blush, which Ash did not.

And since when does winks count as a hint?

goldplumes
24th January 2006, 1:40 AM
^ As above, if WINKS count as HINTS, then heck, we could ship the characters with us since they wink us very often. Even Pikachu could now be considered a love interest. *rolleyes*

Rex Kamex
24th January 2006, 1:45 AM
OK well either way the thread is re-opened so who wants to start the debate?????????

And yet two posts earlier...


Rats... I wanted to restart it... (at least consulting Meganium XD first). Oh well, as long as this thread doesn't turn into the last one, I'll be happy. (Aw, who am I kidding?)

I personally wanted Ash and Misty to get together before May came along. I think that the anime, at the beginning, showed lots of hints for something to happen between Ash and Misty. The problem was that the hints have been decreasing to barely anything. That's why I've been wondering if the idea for Ash and Misty went with the idea about the GS Ball.

About Misty's statement about not giving up for love, what did Misty say, exactly? I'd like it if someone stated what she said in the Japanese version of the show, but the dub would work too. No matter what she said, anybody could say something about not giving up on love.

(By the way, I'd like to see Ash and May get together, but I'm not what the writers think of that idea.)

I did start the debate, but now I feel like chopped liver...

Anyway, telling someone not to give up on love doesn't mean that that person is in the same situation. It at least shows that the person is supporting the other person. You know, I think that the hints between Ash and Misty that recently came were just to keep the fans talking...

Jo-Jo
24th January 2006, 1:48 AM
For the record, Misty winked twice at Ash as recently as in the Showdown At Oak's Lab episode. Not that it means anything either way. Misty and May both have cutesy streaks. Winking is in character for them both.

The Red Butterfly
24th January 2006, 1:51 AM
I highly doubt that, the writers wouldn't put hints in just for the fans IT'S THEIR SHOW!!!!! If they didn't want Ash and Misty to be together they wouldn't have put in hints AT ALL but THEY DID!!!!!!
I did start the debate

Sorry must have overlooked that whole post!! I was more referring to the fact that they were still takling about who should have opened the thread and they weren't even continuing the debate!!!!!

Rex Kamex
24th January 2006, 1:59 AM
I highly doubt that, the writers wouldn't put hints in just for the fans IT'S THEIR SHOW!!!!! If they didn't want Ash and Misty to be together they wouldn't have put in hints AT ALL but THEY DID!!!!!!

Sorry must have overlooked that whole post!! I was more referring to the fact that they were still takling about who should have opened the thread and they weren't even continuing the debate!!!!!

It's okay, but you're right; there was more of a debate over who should open the debate than a debate about what was in the debate.

About the fans thing, I wish they'd show better "hints" in the show. That way we don't have any trouble figuring out who likes who. Yes, romance isn't a real genre in Pokemon, but this is just ridiculous.

The thing about the winking though is that it happened when someone talked about love, so it's not any sort of random wink. By saying something like "love is a wonderful thing" and then winking at the opposite gender shows that May is trying to imply something. Even if it wasn't a shipping hint, it shows something, right?

Kiori
24th January 2006, 2:03 AM
The thing about the winking though is that it happened when someone talked about love, so it's not any sort of random wink. By saying something like "love is a wonderful thing" and then winking at the opposite gender shows that May is trying to imply something. Even if it wasn't a shipping hint, it shows something, right?

It shows something, but it's vague imo. No one can actually claim that she's actually hinting who her love interest is because there's too many options at what she may be talking about. It could've just been an implication that she just adore romance.

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 2:11 AM
No offense but this is why I ignored the first debate because all this is becoming Pokeshippers yell at Advanceshippers and thier only excuse is Misty was in the show for 5 seasons and they belong together...at least I tried to mention hints before you guys got all i dont think that winking counts on me. plus you never replied to the Donphan epi hints which are majorly mushy^^. Besides the first season suked with bad animation and TERRIBLE voices IMO...

Jo-Jo
24th January 2006, 2:20 AM
About the fans thing, I wish they'd show better "hints" in the show. That way we don't have any trouble figuring out who likes who. Yes, romance isn't a real genre in Pokemon, but this is just ridiculous.
If you ask me, they have made it obvious who likes who in the show. The reason we have problems figuring it out is because many people get so attached to their pairing of choice that they won't accept any evidence that it might not happen.

Swifty
24th January 2006, 2:20 AM
No offense but this is why I ignored the first debate because all this is becoming Pokeshippers yell at Advanceshippers and thier only excuse is Misty was in the show for 5 seasons and they belong together...at least I tried to mention hints before you guys got all i dont think that winking counts on me. plus you never replied to the Donphan epi hints which are majorly mushy^^. Excuse me? The first debate being PokeShippers yell at AdvanceShippers? Oh, please. The first debate was all about PokeShipping being on the defensive with anti-PokeShippers constantly on the offensive. There were no turnovers, no offensive plays by us, consistently defense plays with no downs in sight... We rarely were the ones that brought up our own points, much less go on the offensive against AdvanceShipping. Not to mention, all of our arguments were purely based on events that occured post-Johto. I don't know where the hell you guys are getting that cuckoo notion that we were exclusively using arguments based on facts from the first five seasons. :rolleyes:

Please, why don't you actually read (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=93631) what we wrote in the previous thread.


Besides the first season suked with bad animation and TERRIBLE voices IMO..What does the quality of the first season have anything to do with romantic relationships? >:O

Rex Kamex
24th January 2006, 2:21 AM
It shows something, but it's vague imo. No one can actually claim that she's actually hinting who her love interest is because there's too many options at what she may be talking about. It could've just been an implication that she just adore romance.

Even so, you can't compare her winking in that situation to Misty's winking. Still, May winking at Ash after mentioning whatever she said about love is nothing to be ignored.


Besides the first season suked with bad animation and TERRIBLE voices IMO...

What does that have to do with anything?

EDIT: Never mind.

Kiori
24th January 2006, 2:26 AM
No offense but this is why I ignored the first debate because all this is becoming Pokeshippers yell at Advanceshippers and thier only excuse is Misty was in the show for 5 seasons and they belong together...at least I tried to mention hints before you guys got all i dont think that winking counts on me. plus you never replied to the Donphan epi hints which are majorly mushy^^. Besides the first season suked with bad animation and TERRIBLE voices IMO...

Who's yelling? Our reasons for Pokeshipping is because of the hints (the cuteness, fanfics, and fanarts, too, of course ^^). Although some people's reason is that Misty has been there for five seasons, it doesn't exactly excuse the hints that's listed in the Pokeshipping hint list. Besides, debates are meant for arguements. What'dya expect?

Winks don't count as a hint. It's the context and/or the reaction whom the person is talking to that makes the scene count as a hint.

Who cares if you think the first season sucked because of the poor quality of the animation along with the voices? It's just being potrayed as an excuse. And "They belong together" was just a shipper's opinion, like how you and your fellow Advanceshippers have said that so many times in the Advanceshipping thread.

The Donphan epi . . . no hints. As far as I can go with that epi, I can only claim it as far as subtle hint. I could as very well do that to a friend and we both won't think of that as romantic. What Ash said did not make it shippy. Not at all. He would say the same stuff as to any other people he meets. Still, it doesn't portray more as a subtle hint.

Edit: To MCJ - Can you actually take the time to read the posts? I said:


..So? Just because she said it to Ash and winked at him, doesn't mean it's a hint. Can be cute, subtle, but a hint? I don't think so. Even if you were to ask me what would've happened if she did that to Drew (as another scenario), I wouldn't think it counts as a hint unless he did blush, which Ash did not.

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 2:34 AM
Excuse me? The first debate being PokeShippers yell at AdvanceShippers? Oh, please. The first debate was all about PokeShipping being on the defensive with anti-PokeShippers constantly on the offensive. There were no turnovers, no offensive plays by us, consistently defense plays with no downs in sight... We rarely were the ones that brought up our own points, much less go on the offensive against AdvanceShipping. Not to mention, all of our arguments were purely based on events that occured post-Johto. I don't know where the hell you guys are getting that cuckoo notion that we were exclusively using arguments based on facts from the first five seasons. :rolleyes:

Please, why don't you actually read (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=93631) what we wrote in the previous thread.

What does the quality of the first season have anything to do with romantic relationships? >:O

Well people said that They were yellin at us and I just wanted to mention the first season thing because I just felt like it ^^'... And Sorry for giving My opinion kiori but you are chrushing our hope here dso Im out of this mess....

Rex Kamex
24th January 2006, 2:35 AM
If you ask me, they have made it obvious who likes who in the show. The reason we have problems figuring it out is because many people get so attached to their pairing of choice that they won't accept any evidence that it might not happen.

Maybe they partially made it obvious then, but in recent episodes with hints we've only seen them with Misty. There's no getting around that there was something going on in the house, but what about now? Even if Misty did like Ash, there's no guarantee about Ash feeling the same way anymore.

It doesn't look like they've been showing too many Advanceshipping hints, but the hints with Ash and Misty have died down. There's no getting around that either. Misty showed many emotions when she left Ash in Johto, but she hasn't showed the same emotion when she left him twice later on. Even without her much on the show, that shouldn't be any excuse for a lack of frequent hints.

Ember
24th January 2006, 2:46 AM
i'm on your side Satoshi EX, so please take no offense to what I'm saying. The fact is, everyone else is right, I haven't seen anyone yelling, and since when does poor animation and graphics have to do with romance? But still, even being the advanceshipper I am, there hasn't been a whole lot of hints recently, but all the same they haven't seemed to continue on with the pokeshipping hints either. But there still is some "sweet moments" between Ash and May but I wouldn't consider them nessesarily hints even though I'd like to think that. Still though, Advanceshipping does seem more likely, or contestshipping is always a possibility as well.

Atoyont
24th January 2006, 2:49 AM
As far as I know, there is no evidence for Advanceshipping. There was a bad impact on it in "Once in a Mawile," where Ash says something like, "I don't get it (the love thing). May responds, "Spoken like a man."

Now that I think about it though, that hint goes against Ash loving anyone, including Misty. Drat.

Kiori
24th January 2006, 2:54 AM
Now that I think about it though, that hint goes against Ash loving anyone, including Misty. Drat.

Sometimes action means more than words, no matter how it's paraphrased to death. Just because she said it, it didn't give an excuse as to how jealous Ash was over Danny. As for now, I don't exactly know. :p


Still though, Advanceshipping does seem more likely, or contestshipping is always a possibility as well.

'Scuse me for taking this a bit off topic, but, imo, Contestshipping is way more likely than Advanceshipping. :p

Ember
24th January 2006, 2:57 AM
Sometimes action means more than words, no matter how it's paraphrased to death. Just because she said it, it didn't give an excuse as to how jealous Ash was over Danny. As for now, I don't exactly know. :p

Ah, back when I was a pokeshipper used to want to see that epp all of the time. You can't really ignore what happened the but it was still a long time ago.



'Scuse me for taking this a bit off topic, but, imo, Contestshipping is way more likely than Advanceshipping. :p

I actually think that they're pretty even right now, hint wise.

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 2:59 AM
As far as I know, there is no evidence for Advanceshipping. There was a bad impact on it in "Once in a Mawile," where Ash says something like, "I don't get it (the love thing). May responds, "Spoken like a man."

May teases Ash about love in a few episodes, I don't see why that's an anti hint. Misty used to tease Ash about love too, seeing as how both girls seem to love the aspect of well, "love", it's no surprise that the writers have both girls tease Ash on occasion.


'Scuse me for taking this a bit off topic, but, imo, Contestshipping is way more likely than Advanceshipping. :p

Well for as long as he's still on the show anyway, because in another year or so Contestshipping could be in the same boat as Palletshipping.

But let me stop myself here before I get carried away and get back on topic.

Jo-Jo
24th January 2006, 3:26 AM
As I recall, Misty often got annoyed when Ash acted clueless about love. Figures, since she fancied him and was frustrated that he wasn't taking notice of her.

May, on the other hand, just teases Ash. She seems to think he's funny when he's being obtuse. She gives no sign of disappointment at his lack of hormones.

Rex Kamex
24th January 2006, 3:35 AM
Welcome back, CyberCubed!


As I recall, Misty often got annoyed when Ash acted clueless about love. Figures, since she fancied him and was frustrated that he wasn't taking notice of her.

When was any of this? When did she ever show any disappointment?

To be honest, Contestshipping does show more hints (especially with Drew) than Advanceshipping. If Contestshipping really does become "canon", it will increase the chances of Pokeshipping unless Ash becomes jealous. Likewise, if May was with Tracey (which shows even less hints), Ash's not being jealous would increase the chances of him being with May. To be honest, this whole debate could lie in the hands of May...

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 4:06 AM
To be honest, Contestshipping does show more hints (especially with Drew) than Advanceshipping. If Contestshipping really does become "canon", it will increase the chances of Pokeshipping unless Ash becomes jealous. Likewise, if May was with Tracey (which shows even less hints), Ash's not being jealous would increase the chances of him being with May. To be honest, this whole debate could lie in the hands of May...

Well actually which ship becomes "canon" depends on what characters still remain on the series. The longer Misty remains off the show, the less likely the writers are going to have her show affection to Ash again. I still have yet to hear from Pokeshippers why Misty showed no affection to Ash when she actually met him in both the Mirage Kingdom episodes and the Pallet town episodes.

When the writers deem that they've done everything they could with the May/Drew rivalry, Drew will be following the same path Gary took.

Which characters the writers still like and want to write for will depend on which ships they go with.

Case in point, look at the Palletshipping fanbase today. It's almost non-existent on most major Pokemon forums as Gary has been written off the series. It's an obscure ship, despite being one of the biggest ships back in the day (For what reason I have no idea, the concept of Ash/Gary together is mind boggling).

Magus
24th January 2006, 4:40 AM
So this topic, like its predecessor, is less a Pokéshipping vs Advanceshipping debate than a Pokéshipping vs anti-Pokéshipping debate. Unless some Advanceshippers want to actually step up to the plate and make a case for their own ship rather than exclusively arguing against Pokéshipping, I don't see the point of reviving this topic.

Swifty
24th January 2006, 4:42 AM
I still have yet to hear from Pokeshippers why Misty showed no affection to Ash when she actually met him in both the Mirage Kingdom episodes and the Pallet town episodes.I don't think it really matters if we didn't get any displays of affection from Misty. The Mirage Kingdom episodes aired September 25, 2003. A Date For Delcatty, where we see Misty show her feelings for Ash, was aired September 2, 2003. I doubt that within a month of those two episodes airing, the producers made a sudden conscious decision to retcon Misty's crush on Ash. I think it's safe to assume that during the Mirage Kingdom episodes that Misty still likes Ash, despite the fact that no hints were seen in the two-part episode; no evidence does not mean the evidence of absence. Because of how closely those two episodes aired, declaring Misty's crush faded during the timeline when those episodes occured is a lofty proclamation.

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 4:47 AM
Maybe so, then why not the three Pallet Town episodes? As you're trying to prove that Misty being in Ash's house was meant to be shippy, then howcome Misty's personality and demeanor didn't reflect that?

I'm not asking for a megaton of hints here, just wondering why Misty and Ash were so platonic in those three episodes. You honestly could not make Ash and Misty more platonic than the writers have done so when they met again after Hoenn.

Why were Misty's interactions with Ash so lackluster, especially since she haden't seen him since the Mirage Kingdom, which was most likely months ago? And of course, the fact that she probably won't see him again until he's finished his Battle Frontier quest.

Misty and Ash hardly see each other anymore, why isn't Misty more affectionate toward him when she actually sees the guy?

Swifty
24th January 2006, 5:00 AM
Maybe so, then why not the three Pallet Town episodes? As you're trying to prove that Misty being in Ash's house was meant to be shippy, then howcome Misty's personality and demeanor didn't reflect that?

I'm not asking for a megaton of hints here, just wondering why Misty and Ash were so platonic in those three episodes. You honestly could not make Ash and Misty more platonic than the writers have done so when they met again after Hoenn.

Why were Misty's interactions with Ash so lackluster, especially since she haden't seen him since the Mirage Kingdom, which was most likely months ago? And of course, the fact that she probably won't see him again until he's finished his Battle Frontier quest.

Misty and Ash hardly see each other anymore, why isn't Misty more affectionate toward him when she actually sees the guy?Misty hadn't seen Ash for months since she left his party at Viridian City. Although we know she still likes Ash by reference of the Date for Delcatty episode, we didn't see her feelings overtly conveyed to the audience during the Mirage Kingdom episodes one month later. Whatever reason that prevented her from gushing over Ash during those episodes can most likely be applied to the first Battle Frontier episodes as well.

Sika
24th January 2006, 5:17 AM
Misty hadn't seen Ash for months since she left his party at Viridian City. Although we know she still likes Ash by reference of the Date for Delcatty episode, we didn't see her feelings overtly conveyed to the audience during the Mirage Kingdom episodes one month later.

Now, can you explain us how in "A Date With Delcatty" it was referenced Misty´s affection for Ash? I saw it, and I can´t recall thinking "OMG she´s thinking of Ash.


Whatever reason that prevented her from gushing over Ash during those episodes can most likely be applied to the first Battle Frontier episodes as well.

How? I´d like to see your points ;).

As for the debate, it´s not a great idea, since chances of AS (with almost no hints, imo) happening depends almost fully on PS and CS. So if any of you is gonna say this is "Advanceshippers bashing on Pokeshippers´ hints" is because, as i stated above, our ship depends on PS and CS going down (not much likeky with the last one :(). Naturally, the topic of the debate should be if Pokeshipping still has a chance on Animé.

Swifty
24th January 2006, 5:31 AM
Now, can you explain us how in "A Date With Delcatty" it was referenced Misty´s affection for Ash? I saw it, and I can´t recall thinking "OMG she´s thinking of Ash.There was already a prior set up for her feelings before that episode aired. There's no other reason to believe that Misty was talking about anyone else other than Ash. We have five years of backstory to buttress that claim. The burden of proof is on you guys. You guys need to proof it's not Ash and simply saying that she wasn't thinking about Ash isn't enough.

Sika
24th January 2006, 5:36 AM
There was already a prior set up for her feelings before that episode aired. There's no other reason to believe that Misty was talking about anyone else other than Ash. We have five years of backstory to buttress that claim. The burden of proof is on you guys. You guys need to proof it's not Ash and simply saying that she wasn't thinking about Ash isn't enough.

The only other plausible option is Orangeshipping, but let´s not get into that.

Then explain why she restrained her feelings at the beginning of BF.

Magus
24th January 2006, 6:18 AM
The only other plausible option is Orangeshipping, but let´s not get into that.
Misty thinking of Tracey during that scene isn't plausible, since her reaction to being asked if there's a guy she likes is much more emotional than her reaction to being asked (with Tracey in the same room) if Tracey is her boyfriend. The only way that makes any sense at all is if she was thinking of somebody other than Tracey. The list of candidates is very short. Ash's name is at the top of the list. It's also the bottom of the list if you get my drift.

Ash is the only reasonable candidate for who the guy was that Misty was thinking about in that scene, which proves that her feelings for him haven't gone away.


Then explain why she restrained her feelings at the beginning of BF.
For the same reason she did during the Mirage Kingdom episodes, I would guess.



Misty and Tracey hardly even appear in the show anymore to begin with, so all debates about all that nonsense have been done already. Next time we see Misty will probably be right before the BF arc ends, and I'm sure Tracey (and Oak, and Delia, lol) will all be there too.

It's hard to find new evidence for a ship when one of the said (or in Orangeshippings case, BOTH characters) hardly even appear in the show anymore. They basically appear once a year. That's rough.
By comparison, it should be a lot easier to find new evidence for Advanceshipping. After all, Ash and May are both in every new episode. You don't have to wait until the end of the story arc for them to interact again. Every week gives you a chance to look for new hints. So where are they?

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 6:30 AM
^ Your point being? Pokeshipping did not have new hints in every single episode. Since Pokemon is not a romance show, they're not going to shove hints down our throats in every single episode. Even when Misty was on the show, 90% of the episodes weren't shippy. Especially in the Johto seasons, real Pokeshipping hints were a rarity.

With characters who only appear once every year or so, the writers have a much LESS of a chance to show hints. Misty is barely in the show anymore, and for the three episodes that her and Ash meet, what do we get? Nothing more than platonic friendship.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with the Misty in Ash's house thing and how it doesn't match up with her behavior?

So theoretically, if Misty never shows affection to Ash again for the rest of the series, but continues to show up at his house (and then only platonic friendship ensues in said episodes), then by that logic Pokeshipping is still being written? Huh?

Magus
24th January 2006, 7:12 AM
My point is, there have been 160 episodes in a row (in Japan) that both Ash and May have been in, as well as three movies. That's a lot of episodes to look for hints in. So where are they?

You might think it's ridiculous to say Pokéshipping is still being written, but given the dearth of hints I think it's ridiculous to say Advanceshipping was ever being written.

Mamoru
24th January 2006, 1:44 PM
I really don't understand your obsession with Misty showing affection to Ash, Cybercubed. Rather than asking us why she's not showering him with affection every time she meets him, perhaps you should ask yourself these questions. When did she ever shower him with affection; and why should this lack of obvious outward affection to a guy who she hasn't actually really confessed her feelings to yet even matter in the first place, given the clear establishment of her feelings through other means?

You're quite right that Pokémon isn't a romance show, and that there shouldn't be hints in every episode. However....if AdvanceShipping was going to stand even a chance of happening, I would expect from it hints at least as frequent as those for PokéShipping during Johto. From my perspective, AdvanceShipping has no hints whatsoever. If you would like to disagree with that opinion, kindly actually outline some hints, because right now, you're just doing your impression of a broken record again.

Atoyont
24th January 2006, 2:06 PM
So this topic, like its predecessor, is less a Pokéshipping vs Advanceshipping debate than a Pokéshipping vs anti-Pokéshipping debate. Unless some Advanceshippers want to actually step up to the plate and make a case for their own ship rather than exclusively arguing against Pokéshipping, I don't see the point of reviving this topic.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Magus. CyberCubed, the only reason Misty did not show affection is because May and Max were around. She didn't want to reveal her feelings to the world. (I don't think that anyone else would want to either)

intergalactic platypus
24th January 2006, 3:49 PM
okay cranky but tell me when was the last time wisty winked at ash or should I go staight to the donphan episode^^

The scene with love is a beatiful thing wasn't a hint. Ash barely reacted, and the entire episode was anti shippy because they were at a freakin love festival for couples and they didn't respond a single bit. It could have been the perfect set up for advanceshipping but instead the writers ignored it in that ep for the most part. As for the Donphan ep, when I saw how truly blown out of proportion that episode was I actually laughed. If thats the biggest bit of evidence your ship has, that doesn't say much

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 5:42 PM
CyberCubed, the only reason Misty did not show affection is because May and Max were around. She didn't want to reveal her feelings to the world. (I don't think that anyone else would want to either)

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Misty had no problem showing Ash affection in the past.


When did she ever shower him with affection; and why should this lack of obvious outward affection to a guy who she hasn't actually really confessed her feelings to yet even matter in the first place, given the clear establishment of her feelings through other means?

She danced with him in the "Ghost of Maidens Peak" episode in front of everyone. She showed various jealousy moments over Ash that anyone would realize why she did it. She doesn't need to "shower him with affection", but just let us know that she still has lingering feelings for him when she actually SEES him.

I don't know why Pokeshippers are ignoring the fact that Misty's interactions with Ash are so lackluster in AG. Surely not seeing a guy for ages would have her more interested in him for the time being since she's not going to see him again for another couples of months.

And that's the problem I have with the AG Pokeshipping hints. Misty's behavior doesn't reflect them. Which is why the little kids who have just started watching Pokemon with AG would have never known that Misty had a crush on Ash, because the writers fail to make it apparent. Since some of thse new kids don't even know Misty's character outside of the few episode she's been in, they probably just think she's one of Ash's former traveling companions.

That's why I have problems seeing Pokeshipping in AG, because the writers just don't have Misty interact with Ash in a manner that's not platonic anymore. Hell, they don't even have their trademark bickering and fighting like they used to. So what's left?

Jo-Jo
24th January 2006, 6:46 PM
She danced with him in the "Ghost of Maidens Peak" episode in front of everyone. She showed various jealousy moments over Ash that anyone would realize why she did it. She doesn't need to "shower him with affection", but just let us know that she still has lingering feelings for him when she actually SEES him.
Wait, hang on - I don't recall anyone holding a ball in the Oak's Lab ep. No girls were hitting on Ash, either. When would Misty have had the opportunity to dance with Ash or get jealous?

Misty didn't show hints towards Ash at random. It was always in response to something. Daisy/Team Rocket/Melody/Tracey/Danny accused her of being Ash's girlfriend; she furiously denied it. Pretty girls popped up and kissed Ash on the cheek; she scowled. If nothing happens in an episode to prompt her to display her feelings, then why should she show them?

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 6:51 PM
Wait, hang on - I don't recall anyone holding a ball in the Oak's Lab ep. No girls were hitting on Ash, either. When would Misty have had the opportunity to dance with Ash or get jealous?

Jo-Jo I was talking about the Maidens Peak episode as a sign of showing affection for him in the past, I didn't mean she had to dance with him now.


Misty didn't show hints towards Ash at random. It was always in response to something. Daisy/Team Rocket/Melody/Tracey/Danny accused her of being Ash's girlfriend; she furiously denied it. Pretty girls popped up and kissed Ash on the cheek; she scowled. If nothing happens in an episode to prompt her to display her feelings, then why should she show them?

And with that being said, if Misty doesn't suspect May of anything, and if no other girls hit on Ash, then when WILL Misty show affection or jealousy toward Ash again? Since she's hardly on the show anymore the writers have written Pokeshipping into a wall, it's just hard to do anything with it at the moment. This is of course assuming Misty still has a lingering crush on Ash, although I'd say she doesn't seem to be as interested in him as she used to due to her lackluster platonic conversations with him nowadays.

gamehunter
24th January 2006, 8:02 PM
(damn im gonna get creamed.....)
This is fer all u pokeshippers out there that think there was even a pokeshipping. U all seem to have fer gotten that pokeshipping is based on Ash and misty love and fer that i ask u all, since when the hell has ash ever showed affection towards misty. Even when she left and gave him the (whatever it was) he still was as dim whitted as he'll everbe, because i bet u he didn't even have a clue on what it met. Again i will go to the point that pokeshipping is ash and misty. And so far as i can tell, its only misty who actually seems to be involved in the whole damn thing. Ash hasn't given out no hints or nothin. And wasn't it was misty who got picked on in the first place by her sisters fer even meetin them with ash. They just assumed and didn't even ask him about what he thought bout misty as a g/f.

Swifty
24th January 2006, 8:40 PM
And with that being said, if Misty doesn't suspect May of anything, and if no other girls hit on Ash, then when WILL Misty show affection or jealousy toward Ash again?Misty will show affection and/or jealousy towards Ash when it comes an appropriate time and setting to write it in an episode and when the producers feel like it. I doubt having episodes in boring ol' Smallville, I mean, Pallet Town, :) is a good opportunity for Misty's crush on Ash to be displayed. I would think that an episode taking place, say, Cerulean City or Maiden's Peak would have more opportunities in writing a screenplay that would be handle a shippy hint within an episode's plot structure. We'll just have to see what happens in future episodes. Unless we get something similar to James' anti-RocketShippy statement regarding him and Jessie being married or Misty is paired up with another guy, the possibility for PokeShipping existing in the anime still remains.


U all seem to have fer gotten that pokeshipping is based on Ash and misty love and fer that i ask u all, since when the hell has ash ever showed affection towards mistySince when did Ash show romantic affections for May? Or since when did May ever show romantic affections for Ash? At least we could claim that Misty has/had feelings for Ash while you guys can't seem to make any equal claims regarding May's feelings for Ash. In fact, isn't the show displaying trends of May falling in love with another boy, someone other than Ash (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=71871)?

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 8:52 PM
Is there a reason Contestshipping is constantly being brought up here? You guys have criticized people for bringing up Orangeshipping in this thread, so why bring up Contestshipping?

If I can't talk about the Orangeshipping angle here and the fact that Misty and Tracey appear to be getting close and having people accusing them of being a couple, they why is Contestshipping being brought up?

Swifty
24th January 2006, 8:57 PM
I have no problem with the opposing side bringing up OrangeShipping. Whoever said that anything other than AdvanceShipping and PokeShipping can't be used as support should be shot.

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 8:59 PM
Well I believe Kiori stated a few times in previous debate threads that "other" ships shouldn't be used in a debate about two totally different ships. So yeah. :rolleyes:

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 9:21 PM
First of all to add up the last page pokeshipping has become more onesided anyway and ash HAS always ben worried about May when she was in contests or when she was upset then you will just say that its a big brother type relationship but its more. And if you think that May will leave like Misty then she wouldnt of been in the battle frontier because the only places that ORIGINALLY had contests was Hoenn and May is very popular in japan WHERE THE SHOW IS WRITTEN and then That damn KidsWB takes out all shipping hints because they think were all 5 friggin years old!!!!

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 9:28 PM
Misty will show affection and/or jealousy towards Ash when it comes an appropriate time and setting to write it in an episode and when the producers feel like it. I doubt having episodes in boring ol' Smallville, I mean, Pallet Town, :) is a good opportunity for Misty's crush on Ash to be displayed. I would think that an episode taking place, say, Cerulean City or Maiden's Peak would have more opportunities in writing a screenplay that would be handle a shippy hint within an episode's plot structure. We'll just have to see what happens in future episodes.

So in other words, you guys accept the fact that Misty and Ash haven't shown anything but platonic friendship together in AG. And in other words, you're just hoping that in the future that the writers dig into the "established backstory," and write Pokeshipping again despite the fact that they haven't done anything shippy between Misty and Ash in the last 5 years.

Thanks Swifty, that's all I wanted to hear. :D

Well my job here is done, it's been fun! ;)

gamehunter
24th January 2006, 9:31 PM
In fact, isn't the show displaying trends of May falling in love with another boy, other than Ash?

Another guy eh. Well what the hell do u expect the writers to do, just bring in a whole nother main character and not give them some kind of challenge along the way, that'd be bullsht. Sides, u still haven't said how pokeshipping can be ash and misty love when the fact is ash is to dense to even begin to comprehend what the hell to do if a girl even came on to him. At least with advanceshipping we get him starting to show some real affection towards others girls. And what better way to begin doin that kinda stuff than with the one that he taught prettymuch every thing that she knows and loves about pokemon, eh.

Meganium Ex
24th January 2006, 9:48 PM
You requested for your thread to be closed. It was closed, and nobody had any idea that you were going to restart it. Therfore, Swifty was in his right to make a new thread- He doesn't have to 'ask' or 'report' to you. It's tough that it was remade without your consent.
Yeah, who cares now anyway :D

Anways, almost everybody knows I'm an AdvanceShipper, and hates PokéShipping no matter how much I loved it before...*people gasp!*

Anways, you mean you're quiting this debate, Cyber? If yes...NO!!! ;)

PS. I closed the other thread of fricking SPAM, including that idiot, mayash. Soon that was going to be a 100% SPAM thread -_-

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 9:53 PM
Another guy eh. Well what the hell do u expect the writers to do, just bring in a whole nother main character and not give them some kind of challenge along the way, that'd be bullsht. Sides, u still haven't said how pokeshipping can be ash and misty love when the fact is ash is to dense to even begin to comprehend what the hell to do if a girl even came on to him. At least with advanceshipping we get him starting to show some real affection towards others girls. And what better way to begin doin that kinda stuff than with the one that he taught prettymuch every thing that she knows and loves about pokemon, eh.

Alright stop this Before you get banned gamehunter! you are giving Advanceshippers a bad name. This thread is about proving that the ship you support is real. NOT BAHING POKESHIPPERS FOR BEING THEMSELVES. You are just stereotyping them and NOT HELPING US!!!!! (And PLEASE don't leave Cy your the best debater^^)

Meganium Ex
24th January 2006, 9:58 PM
Alright stop this Before you get banned gamehunter! you are giving Advanceshippers a bad name. This thread is about proving that the ship you support is real. NOT BAHING POKESHIPPERS FOR BEING THEMSELVES. You are just stereotyping them and NOT HELPING US!!!!! (And PLEASE don't leave Cy your the best debater^^)
....*Slaps Head* As far as I recall, gamehunter wasn't SPAMming...And he isn't giving us a bad name, just telling the truth; though he explained a little things wrong

Anyways, you gotta admit that PokéShipping slaps AdvanceShipping in almost any way, and that PokéShipping has hundreds of hints

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 10:00 PM
Well al he does is sware and yell at Pokeshippers....plus tell me one thing he did to PROVE THE SHIP......

Meganium Ex
24th January 2006, 10:05 PM
Well al he does is sware and yell at Pokeshippers....plus tell me one thing he did to PROVE THE SHIP......
Well, sometimes you have to admit the truth about a ship, even if you don't like it. Just like I said before, PokéShipping has a higher chance at canon, I have to admit

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 10:10 PM
so do I but he is just yelling at pokeshippers and Stereotyping them. I don't care what ship people have as long as they are willing to be my friend.

And for the debate....the thing about Ash is that he dosent show his love intrests towards anyone. While it is quite obvious that Misty and May both like him...but I am almost absolutely sue May likes nobody BUT Ash. Misty however may like a number of boys (note I did not say GIRLS, All pokemon charecters are straight....except Harley^^) Like Tracey or brock or even Gary. While Drew might like May I really doubt that May likes him.

STJ
24th January 2006, 10:12 PM
Anways, you mean you're quiting this debate, Cyber? If yes...NO!!! ;)

Well, considering the fact that he's debated everything about Pokeshipping in the present which could be debated, there's not much left for him to do, is there?

Of course, he (and the rest of you guys) could defend Advanceshipping, but then, since most Advanceshippers recognise the fact that there are no many 'hints' then defending it is pretty redundent, especially if the opposition will not agree..

gamehunter
24th January 2006, 10:21 PM
Okay Shatoshi EX i'll shut up fer now and like i already said that i was just gettin a little pi*sed off, but now im good. As fer all ya pokeshippers out there, im srry if i affended anyone, also i bet u think that all this quarlin is as funny as hell eh. And as fer provin advanceshippin, all i got to say is.......watch "Love At First Flight".

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 10:32 PM
You dont have to quit just understand anyone can have an poinion...My cousin was banned from this site *coughTWICEcough* for getting out of hand when his fic got closed^^ (he is a moron sometimes^^).

Shipping wise the main thing about Advanceshippin is that it is just as fragile as Pokeshipping. The only thing keeping May on the show is contests which makes me feel that May was going to be like Tracey and be a one-season charecter but she is the most popular charecter in japan after Ash^^ basicly the Japaneese kids have the biggest influence on the entire show because of things like that so in my opinion...The shipping is all up to the Children of Japan (and I think they like ash and MAy^^.

Mamoru
24th January 2006, 10:32 PM
So in other words, you guys accept the fact that Misty and Ash haven't shown anything but platonic friendship together in AG. And in other words, you're just hoping that in the future that the writers dig into the "established backstory," and write Pokeshipping again despite the fact that they haven't done anything shippy between Misty and Ash in the last 5 years.

Thanks Swifty, that's all I wanted to hear. :D

Well my job here is done, it's been fun! ;)

:rolleyes:
You just love twisting facts to try and prove your point, don't you? Conveniently ignoring every little thing that would send your house of cards tumbling down.

So...if there's no hints in AG, how do you explain the hints of Misty's affections towards Ash in HoSo then? It's an unescapable fact that Misty's behavior *does* show there being something more than just a platonic friendship from her side. She doesn't need to suddenly leap upon the guy for that to be displayed, nor does she need to show it right in front of him.

Just how old do you think these characters are anyway, and what kind of culture do you think they would've been brought up in? Stop applying your American standards to them. The Japanese do not in general go for outward displays of affection like that. Bloody oath, just holding hands can be a moment of sheer embarassment for any starting couple, and Ash & Misty certainly aren't at that level yet.



So anyway....when are *you* CyberCubed, going to admit that AdvanceShipping has no hints whatsoever? All your pals here have done it, so when are you going to get around to doing it? Or are you going to show some balls, and actually post a hints list?

intergalactic platypus
24th January 2006, 10:35 PM
(damn im gonna get creamed.....)
This is fer all u pokeshippers out there that think there was even a pokeshipping. U all seem to have fer gotten that pokeshipping is based on Ash and misty love and fer that i ask u all, since when the hell has ash ever showed affection towards misty. Even when she left and gave him the (whatever it was) he still was as dim whitted as he'll everbe, because i bet u he didn't even have a clue on what it met. Again i will go to the point that pokeshipping is ash and misty. And so far as i can tell, its only misty who actually seems to be involved in the whole damn thing. Ash hasn't given out no hints or nothin. And wasn't it was misty who got picked on in the first place by her sisters fer even meetin them with ash. They just assumed and didn't even ask him about what he thought bout misty as a g/f.
And to drive the point home further, if you think pokeshipping has no hints then name ONE advanceshipping hint that can't easily be shot down. You just mentioned Love At First Flight but that was fairly anti-shippy with an entire plot focused around love and Ash and May not reacting towards each other in the slightest. So please, inform us what about advanceshipping is stronger then pokeshipping ever was?

Meganium Ex
24th January 2006, 10:45 PM
Learn spelling and grammar moron. And to drive the point home further, if you think pokeshipping has no hints then name ONE advanceshipping hint that can't easily be shot down. You just mentioned Love At First Flight but that was fairly anti-shippy with an entire plot focused around love and Ash and May not reacting towards each other in the slightest. So please, inform us what about advanceshipping is stronger then pokeshipping ever was?
I already admited it; PokéShipping DOES have a higher chance of happening!

Jeez...And if you want a strong hint, there isn't any. All of our hints can be shot down, bt no one knoes the future. It's like in Harry Potter. No one EVER thought Harry and Hermonie would be shot down and Hermonie and Ron would come instead. So we never know

(Harry Potter Spoils)

gamehunter
24th January 2006, 10:56 PM
So please, inform us what about advanceshipping is stronger then pokeshipping ever was?

First off, my spellin and gramer come from bein a hoser (if ya don't know what that is then look it up american, no offence to other americans). And second ya'll where askin fer a shipping hint and I gave u one, then u said that it was anti-shippy. Well if you actually watched the eppy, and "listened" fer a change, then you would of heard plenty of hints. In our advthread, I stated awhile back plenty of shippyhints fer that eppy and not one of them was found by "watch it once and that was it".

CyberCubed
24th January 2006, 11:04 PM
So anyway....when are *you* CyberCubed, going to admit that AdvanceShipping has no hints whatsoever? All your pals here have done it, so when are you going to get around to doing it? Or are you going to show some balls, and actually post a hints list?

Check the Advanceshipping thread.

gamehunter
24th January 2006, 11:16 PM
Yet again, I will state that pokeshipping is supposed to be Ash and misty but ash has done nothin towards throwin hints at misty. Its misty thats actually doin all the work, but I can't say the same fer advanceshipping. In advanceshipping, we actually have both sides doin there part like there supposed to.

Jo-Jo
24th January 2006, 11:20 PM
This is fer all u pokeshippers out there that think there was even a pokeshipping. U all seem to have fer gotten that pokeshipping is based on Ash and misty love and fer that i ask u all, since when the hell has ash ever showed affection towards misty.
Alrighty, then, since you asked:

Evidence that Ash likes Misty

- Ash and Misty bicker a lot. There is a massive trend in fiction for characters who fight all the time to fall in love. The fact that Misty has been confirmed as liking Ash makes it all the more plausible that the Pokemon writers are using the bickering lovers pattern with Ash/Misty.

- Ash is awed at Misty's appearance. In The Ghost Of Maiden's Peak, while he is sitting at the side during the dancing at the end, Misty comes over in a pretty kimono. Ash lowers the Pokedex, his mouth falling open. We are given a long, upwards panning shot of Misty, with a sparkly background behind her and a harp sound effect. Then the camera cuts back to Ash, who is still staring at Misty, open-mouthed.

- Ash gets jealous over perceived romantic threats towards Misty. Ash folds his arms, frowns and says to Misty, "You only want that picture taken with Fiorello" when she enters the Princess Day festival. He spends an entire episode throwing fits because Misty gets a crush on Danny, an Orange Islands gym leader. There are also two scenes in Misty Meets Her Match where he gets bent out of shape because Rudy is paying attention to Misty.

- Ash is over-sensitive to the idea of him and Misty as a couple. Every time characters say Ash and Misty are in love, they freak. When Daisy says it, Ash falls over backwards and Misty blushes and screams, "My boyfriend?!". When Team Rocket do it, they blush, avoid each others' eyes and say "That's crazy!" "Never in a million years!". When Tracey does it, they get in his face and yell out, "You must be crazy!" Since we know that Misty likes Ash, and Ash's reaction is identical to Misty's, it makes no sense to conclude that he doesn't feel the same way about her.

Now, I'll admit all of this evidence was in the first two series. I don't know of a single Ash-->Misty hint from Johto onwards. But at least he liked her at one point, and I'm sorry, but that's more than can be said for May. In fact, you can see a huge difference in the way Ash used to behave around Misty and the way he is around May:

- Ash gives no sign of being attracted to May. Ash has seen May in skimpy swimsuits and cute little nurses outfits, and he has never had an impressed reaction to her on any of these occasions. When he thought she was stripping off on the beach in Brave The Wave, all he did was sweatdrop, which is the exact same way Max responded. On top of that, in the eighth movie (the Lucario one), Ash is the only one not to stop and stare at May when she gets changed into her festival outfit. When she first emerges from the changing racks, Brock, Max and Pikachu(?) all gaze at her, smiling, and compliment her on the way she looks. But Ash bursts out and starts posing in his own costume, not even giving May a glance.

- Ash is not jealous of May's relationships with other boys. Sid gets a huge crush on May in the seventh movie. Drew throws May roses. Harley spends most of the Grand Festival gushing over May and holding her hands. May stares and blushes over Drew while he walks away down the beach. Does Ash care? You betcha he doesn't.

- Ash doesn't over-react when accused of being in love with May. When Oscar and Andi call Ash and May a "happy couple", A&M look at them in surprise, fold their arms, turn their backs on each other and make a sarcastic retort. They don't blush, yell, fire off 'the lad/y doth protest too much'-style denials, or do any of the typical things that Ash and Misty always did in such situations. At the risk of a smack on the wrist from CyberCubed ;), it's also worth mentioning that May did blush and over-react when accused of liking Drew forty episodes later, which suggests that she isn't interested in Ash. Since Ash and May have the same reactions in The Bicker The Better, we can therefore deduce that Ash doesn't like her, either.


Jeez...And if you want a strong hint, there isn't any. All of our hints can be shot down, bt no one knoes the future. It's like in Harry Potter. No one EVER thought Harry and Hermonie would be shot down and Hermonie and Ron would come instead. So we never know
........I'm sorry, but you are joking, right? Pretty well EVERYBODY knew that Ron and Hermione were going to end up together. Check some of the pre-HBP shipping polls on neutral websites; an overwhelming majority predicted Ron/Hermione, and over 50% predicted Harry/Ginny.

Meganium Ex
24th January 2006, 11:24 PM
As much as hints matter, check my spoil (IF you don't want to ruin the Shipping Surprise). It proves that hints don't always need to be "here an there", "There and here." It proves that Shippings really can really be canon or true without those hints. And you're all forgetting the 2 most important things of all:

1. Pokémon is not a Shippy show. Sure, they have romance many times, but it's not focused on couples. It's a show abpout how a few characters reach their goal with little critters on their side

2) They're kids! 10-year-olders! (Not Max...XD) Doyou really expect them to be in love? The only reason that people belive Misty has a crush on Ash is because (I think) she was about 13 years old when she met Ash. Ash is dense, which everybody knoes, and still is, so he can't possibly have feelings for a girl. Brock...You know. And yeah, Max's crush on Vivi was unexpected, and was just for a filler

Anyways, May can possibl have a crush on Ash, maybe not though. And Misty's crush (If she had one to begin with), was lost long ago (It seems) in the Hoso's. Meh, that's enough for now :p

Edit:
........I'm sorry, but you are joking, right? Pretty well EVERYBODY knew that Ron and Hermione were going to end up together. Check some of the shipping polls on neutral websites; an overwhelming majority predicted Ron/Hermione, and over 50% predicted Harry/Ginny.
Really? Wow, I HAVE to go to more websites now...XD

gamehunter
24th January 2006, 11:33 PM
Ash and misty bicker alot
Who doesn't

Ash is awed by misty's appearance
who wouldn't

Romantic threats
if you'd known someone fer a long time, id think u'd get angery too

Over sensative as couple
Thats just the way guys are

May attraction
You even bothered watching the AG series

May jealousy
would you get jealous over Sid (......didn't think so) and the other he aint gonna get jealous when he thinks drew is leavin fer good

Over-reacting
I will say again, did you even bother watching the episode

Shatoshi
24th January 2006, 11:35 PM
Jo-Jo you are such a killjoy...and try checking the advanceshipping thread^^

And game hunter is fight I was just too lazy to write that much^^

Jo-Jo
24th January 2006, 11:52 PM
As much as hints matter, check my spoil (IF you don't want to ruin the Shipping Surprise). It proves that hints don't always need to be "here an there", "There and here." It proves that Shippings really can really be canon or true without those hints.
.......Wha...?? Ron/Hermione had a HUGE amount of hints. It couldn't have been more blatant there was something going on there. All that business at the Yule Ball? Ron getting jealous of Krum? Hermione screaming at him to ask her first next time?


And you're all forgetting the 2 most important things of all:

1. Pokémon is not a Shippy show. Sure, they have romance many times, but it's not focused on couples. It's a show abpout how a few characters reach their goal with little critters on their side
Just because romance isn't a main issue in Pokemon doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There have been dozens of romantic relationships in the show, involving main and filler characters. Brock crushes on every girl he sees. A few of them - Wilhemina, Temacu and Lucy - even liked him back. Misty liked Ash for five seasons, maybe longer. Ash liked Misty for at least two. Drew likes May. Rudy liked Misty. Love is in the air! ;)


2) They're kids! 10-year-olders! (Not Max...XD) Doyou really expect them to be in love?
Your side largely believes that May is in love with Ash, and she's ten. Max and Vivi Winstrate were about eight. Ash, at age ten, blushed and said Giselle was "really pretty". Drew can't be older than eleven and hands May roses.


Anyways, May can possibl have a crush on Ash, maybe not though. And Misty's crush (If she had one to begin with), was lost long ago (It seems) in the Hoso's. Meh, that's enough for now
If May can possibly have a crush on Ash at ten, then Ash can have a crush on Misty at ten.


Ash and misty bicker alot
Who doesn't
Ash and Brock, May and Brock, Ash and Pikachu, Misty and Brock, Misty and Tracey, Tracey and Daisy, Misty and Max, Ash and Tracey, and most of the time, Ash and May.


Ash is awed by misty's appearance
who wouldn't
Why isn't he awed by May's appearance, then?


Romantic threats
if you'd known someone fer a long time, id think u'd get angery too
Ash has known Brock for ages and he didn't get angry when Brock cheered for Lucy in their Frontier battle.


Over sensative as couple
Thats just the way guys are
Except when the girl they're accused of liking is May, apparently.


May attraction
You even bothered watching the AG series
No, I only know who the characters are from reading my brother's colouring book. :rolleyes: You want to find me one example from the show where Ash gives any sign of appreciating May's booty? Bet you can't.


May jealousy
one of those he wasn't even there fer and the other he aint gonna get jealous when he thinks drew is leavin fer good
Ash was there for most of the Sid/May, Harley/May and Drew/May business, and he never had a jealous reaction, ever. And I don't know where on earth you got Drew leaving for good from. Drew told May at the end of the Grand Festival that he'd see her in the next GF. As far as Ash knows, he's staying put.


Over-reacting
I will say again, did you even bother watching the episode
Yeah, amazingly enough I did. And if you think the way Ash and May acted was anything alike to Ash and Misty's responses, I can only conclude that you didn't watch the episode.


EX Jo-Jo you are such a killjoy...and try checking the advanceshipping thread^^
This is a debate thread. If reading anti-Advanceshipping arguments upsets you, I suggest you don't follow it any more.

Meganium Ex
24th January 2006, 11:56 PM
Anyways...

Alrighty, then, since you asked:

Evidence that Ash likes Misty

1. - Ash and Misty bicker a lot. There is a massive trend in fiction for characters who fight all the time to fall in love. The fact that Misty has been confirmed as liking Ash makes it all the more plausible that the Pokemon writers are using the bickering lovers pattern with Ash/Misty.

2. - Ash is awed at Misty's appearance. In The Ghost Of Maiden's Peak, while he is sitting at the side during the dancing at the end, Misty comes over in a pretty kimono. Ash lowers the Pokedex, his mouth falling open. We are given a long, upwards panning shot of Misty, with a sparkly background behind her and a harp sound effect. Then the camera cuts back to Ash, who is still staring at Misty, open-mouthed.

3. - Ash gets jealous over perceived romantic threats towards Misty. Ash folds his arms, frowns and says to Misty, "You only want that picture taken with Fiorello" when she enters the Princess Day festival. He spends an entire episode throwing fits because Misty gets a crush on Danny, an Orange Islands gym leader. There are also two scenes in Misty Meets Her Match where he gets bent out of shape because Rudy is paying attention to Misty.

4. - Ash is over-sensitive to the idea of him and Misty as a couple. Every time characters say Ash and Misty are in love, they freak. When Daisy says it, Ash falls over backwards and Misty blushes and screams, "My boyfriend?!". When Team Rocket do it, they blush, avoid each others' eyes and say "That's crazy!" "Never in a million years!". When Tracey does it, they get in his face and yell out, "You must be crazy!" Since we know that Misty likes Ash, and Ash's reaction is identical to Misty's, it makes no sense to conclude that he doens't feel the same way about her.

Now, I'll admit all of this evidence was in the first two series. I don't know of a single Ash-->Misty hint from Johto onwards. But at least he liked her at one point, and I'm sorry, but that's more than can be said for May. In fact, you can see a huge difference in the way Ash used to behave around Misty and the way he is around May:

5. - Ash gives no sign of being attracted to May. Ash has seen May in skimpy swimsuits and cute little nurses outfits, and he has never had an impressed reaction to her on any of these occasions. When he thought she was stripping off on the beach in Brave The Wave, all he did was sweatdrop, which is the exact same way Max responded. On top of that, in the eighth movie (the Lucario one), Ash is the only one not to stop and stare at May when she gets changed into her festival outfit. When she first emerges from the changing racks, Brock, Max and Pikachu(?) all gaze at her, smiling, and compliment her on the way she looks. But Ash bursts out and starts posing in his own costume, not even giving May a glance.

6. - Ash is not jealous of May's relationships with other boys. Sid gets a huge crush on May in the seventh movie. Drew throws May roses. Harley spends most of the Grand Festival gushing over May and holding her hands. May stares and blushes over Drew while he walks away down the beach. Does Ash care? You betcha he doesn't.

7. - Ash doesn't over-react when accused of being in love with May. When Oscar and Andi call Ash and May a "happy couple", A&M look at them in surprise, fold their arms, turn their backs on each other and make a sarcastic retort. They don't blush, yell, fire off 'the lad/y doth protest too much'-style denials, or do any of the typical things that Ash and Misty always did in such situations. At the risk of a smack on the wrist from CyberCubed ;), it's also worth mentioning that May did blush and over-react when accused of liking Drew forty episodes later, which suggests that she isn't interested in Ash. Since Ash and May have the same reactions in The Bicker The Better, we can therefore deduce that Ash doesn't like her, either.
1. Yes, you're right. Fighting is the first sign of love. But does everyone who bicker fight a lot? I don't think so; and if you fight with someone like mad, you probably arn't in love

2. Good point. But notice how that was years ago in the animé, a long time passed. And I've never seen Ash awe in Misty's appreance ever again

3. Maybe because he wanted to battle? You know how Ash is always looking forward to battling and earning another badge. It may be true that Ash was jealous, but that was years ago. And how could Ash be jealous if he dosen't even know what love means? LOL! ;)

4. Another good point. But all those moments were years ago, just like I keep mentioning. And even though Misty was gone in Hoenn, I saw little hints in Johto. And yes, you said that was only in the first 2 series, so I don't know why I repeated myself...XD But isn't it confusing how Ash can be in love when he dosen't know anything about love at all? And I'm not joking

5. Meh, did we ever see Ash being impressed by Misty? The only time he;s been amazed by a Misty appearnce was in that Maidan Peak episode, which like I said a million times: it was years ago

6. Ash knew May didn't like Sid, so why be jealous? Misty was liking Rudy, so that's a reason to be jealous. And about Drew, not really everyone thinks of them as a hint, just a good luck thing, and Harley, well...Ash knew May wasn't in love with him anyway

7. She wasn't blushing over Drew (Was she? I remember in the guid in SPP something else), I think. Wasn't she blushing because her Mom said that Drew was a good openent? Meh, I don't remember...

Rex Kamex
24th January 2006, 11:59 PM
Alrighty, then, since you asked:

Evidence that Ash likes Misty

- Ash and Misty bicker a lot. There is a massive trend in fiction for characters who fight all the time to fall in love. The fact that Misty has been confirmed as liking Ash makes it all the more plausible that the Pokemon writers are using the bickering lovers pattern with Ash/Misty.

So did Ash in May in one episode, and even a couple mentioned that that meant love for Ash and May (even though they did say the same thing for Team Rocket).


- Ash is awed at Misty's appearance. In The Ghost Of Maiden's Peak, while he is sitting at the side during the dancing at the end, Misty comes over in a pretty kimono. Ash lowers the Pokedex, his mouth falling open. We are given a long, upwards panning shot of Misty, with a sparkly background behind her and a harp sound effect. Then the camera cuts back to Ash, who is still staring at Misty, open-mouthed.

That was then and this is now. The opinions of the writers have changed in multipe ways since they first began.


- Ash gets jealous over perceived romantic threats towards Misty. Ash folds his arms, frowns and says to Misty, "You only want that picture taken with Fiorello" when she enters the Princess Day festival. He spends an entire episode throwing fits because Misty gets a crush on Danny, an Orange Islands gym leader. There are also two scenes in Misty Meets Her Match where he gets bent out of shape because Rudy is paying attention to Misty.

Now that was a better hint, but would he do the same thing in a current Japanese episode?


- Ash is over-sensitive to the idea of him and Misty as a couple. Every time characters say Ash and Misty are in love, they freak. When Daisy says it, Ash falls over backwards and Misty blushes and screams, "My boyfriend?!". When Team Rocket do it, they blush, avoid each others' eyes and say "That's crazy!" "Never in a million years!". When Tracey does it, they get in his face and yell out, "You must be crazy!" Since we know that Misty likes Ash, and Ash's reaction is identical to Misty's, it makes no sense to conclude that he doens't feel the same way about her.

How come we haven't seen that in a recent episode? They won't even bother to make Misty come back much to even do that again.


Now, I'll admit all of this evidence was in the first two series. I don't know of a single Ash-->Misty hint from Johto onwards. But at least he liked her at one point, and I'm sorry, but that's more than can be said for May. In fact, you can see a huge difference in the way Ash used to behave around Misty and the way he is around May:

True, they have done more hints with Misty then than with May now.


- Ash gives no sign of being attracted to May. Ash has seen May in skimpy swimsuits and cute little nurses outfits, and he has never had an impressed reaction to her on any of these occasions. When he thought she was stripping off on the beach in Brave The Wave, all he did was sweatdrop, which is the exact same way Max responded. On top of that, in the eighth movie (the Lucario one), Ash is the only one not to stop and stare at May when she gets changed into her festival outfit. When she first emerges from the changing racks, Brock, Max and Pikachu(?) all gaze at her, smiling, and compliment her on the way she looks. But Ash bursts out and starts posing in his own costume, not even giving May a glance.

You have a point there, but Ash only stared at Misty's swimsuit in "Beauty and the Beach".


- Ash is not jealous of May's relationships with other boys. Sid gets a huge crush on May in the seventh movie. Drew throws May roses. Harley spends most of the Grand Festival gushing over May and holding her hands. May stares and blushes over Drew while he walks away down the beach. Does Ash care? You betcha he doesn't.

That one's true, too, but then again, the real threat would've been Drew anyway.


- Ash doesn't over-react when accused of being in love with May. When Oscar and Andi call Ash and May a "happy couple", A&M look at them in surprise, fold their arms, turn their backs on each other and make a sarcastic retort. They don't blush, yell, fire off 'the lad/y doth protest too much'-style denials, or do any of the typical things that Ash and Misty always did in such situations. At the risk of a smack on the wrist from CyberCubed ;), it's also worth mentioning that May did blush and over-react when accused of liking Drew forty episodes later, which suggests that she isn't interested in Ash. Since Ash and May have the same reactions in The Bicker The Better, we can therefore deduce that Ash doesn't like her, either.

They haven't done that recently with Misty, either, and there are ways to do that without Misty being on the show.

Shatoshi
25th January 2006, 12:01 AM
Jo-Jo get used to it that big post proved nothing..... May and Ash consider eachother BEST FRIENDS. Ash didnt call misty his BEST FRIEND until AFTER Jhoto. He called may that in Hoenn^^

Rex Kamex
25th January 2006, 12:21 AM
To be honest though, it was pretty clear that May and Misty were both best friends of Ash before he even said it.

Shatoshi
25th January 2006, 12:41 AM
-_-' I'm trying to make a point...

Jo-Jo
25th January 2006, 1:04 AM
1. Yes, you're right. Fighting is the first sign of love. But does everyone who bicker fight a lot? I don't think so; and if you fight with someone like mad, you probably arn't in love
That's not true. Bickering couples fight like cats. Often their squabbles are hurtful and can even result in tears and storm-offs. The aforementioned Ron/Hermione is a case in point. In book 3, Hermione runs from the room crying because of something Ron says. In book 4, she "looked as though Ron had slapped her" during one of their arguments. She hurts Ron's feelings by being less-than-complimentary about his Quidditch ability in book 5, and attacks him with a flock of magical canaries in book 6. Bickering couples have extremely tempestuous relationships. Ash/Misty is actually fairly tame in comparison to some of the pairings out there.


2. Good point. But notice how that was years ago in the animé, a long time passed. And I've never seen Ash awe in Misty's appreance ever again
I did say they were all early hints. And Ash and Brock were both mildly awed at Misty's appearance in Beauty and the Beach, Princess vs. Princess and The Misty Mermaid.


3. Maybe because he wanted to battle? You know how Ash is always looking forward to battling and earning another badge.
That reasoning can work for the scenes with Ash and Rudy, but not the ones with Ash and Danny, since Ash didn't know Danny was the gym leader until some way into the episode.


It may be true that Ash was jealous, but that was years ago. And how could Ash be jealous if he dosen't even know what love means? LOL!
I never said Ash doesn't know what love means. I think he has a basic idea by now after watching Brock humiliate himself for eight seasons. His problem is more that he's too clueless to figure out when he likes someone. He has the capacity to find girls attractive, IMO, he just doesn't understand what he's feeling.


5. Meh, did we ever see Ash being impressed by Misty? The only time he;s been amazed by a Misty appearnce was in that Maidan Peak episode, which like I said a million times: it was years ago
But he's never been impressed by May at all. Why should his mouth fall open when he sees Misty in a lovely kimono, but not when he sees May in a beautiful dress?


6. Ash knew May didn't like Sid, so why be jealous?
Misty knew Ash didn't like Macey, and she was still jealous.


And about Drew, not really everyone thinks of them as a hint, just a good luck thing
Caroline teases May about Drew ("that's what I call young love!" - approximate translation) while Ash is standing right there. And his expression doesn't change.


and Harley, well...Ash knew May wasn't in love with him anyway
Then why did Drew get jealous?


7. She wasn't blushing over Drew (Was she? I remember in the guid in SPP something else), I think. Wasn't she blushing because her Mom said that Drew was a good openent? Meh, I don't remember...
She was blushing. When Brock asks, "Is that Shuu?" May nods and smiles with her hands clasped in front of her, while blushing. Then Caroline teases her and she turns even redder.


So did Ash in May in one episode, and even a couple mentioned that that meant love for Ash and May (even though they did say the same thing for Team Rocket).
Fighting in one episode while getting along fine the rest of the time does not a bickering couple make. The idea behind antagonistic romances is that the characters fight to suppress (or, sometimes, express) their feelings. Therefore in order for the fighting to be a hint, they have to do it regularly, not as a one-off thing.

And Oscar and Andi are stark raving mad. They called Ash and May a "happy couple" when they were yelling "I hate you!" at each other. Weeeirdos.


Now that was a better hint, but would he do the same thing in a current Japanese episode?
I don't know. He hasn't been given the opportunity. He's been given plenty of opportunities with May, though, and not a peep of jealousy.


How come we haven't seen that in a recent episode?
...Because Misty's not on the show any more?


They won't even bother to make Misty come back much to even do that again.
I hardly think they'd go to the trouble of bringing Misty back just so somebody could ask her if she liked Ash.


You have a point there, but Ash only stared at Misty's swimsuit in "Beauty and the Beach".
He also teased her about her Goldeen outfit in The March of the Exeggcutor Squad, and stared at her along with Brock in her mermaid costume.


EX Jo-Jo get used to it that big post proved nothing..... May and Ash consider eachother BEST FRIENDS. Ash didnt call misty his BEST FRIEND until AFTER Jhoto. He called may that in Hoenn^^
When did he say May was his best friend? Quote, please. And in any case, so what? It matters not the tiniest bit who Ash's best friend is (and for the record, it's Pikachu. Sorry, shippers). You don't automatically become attracted to the person you care about the most, or else May is in love with Max.

Shatoshi
25th January 2006, 1:10 AM
He also teased her about her Goldeen outfit in The March of the Exeggcutor Squad, and stared at her along with Brock in her mermaid costume.

Exactly (GYMSHIPPING)

Jo-Jo
25th January 2006, 1:22 AM
He also teased her about her Goldeen outfit in The March of the Exeggcutor Squad, and stared at her along with Brock in her mermaid costume.

Exactly (GYMSHIPPING)
Yup. Both boys sat up and took notice when Misty got a costume change a hell of a lot more often than they do now with May. IMO, this proves that both Ash and Brock are more attracted to Misty than they are to May. In Brock's case, this is probably because May is so much younger than him. In Ash's... I dunno, perhaps May's just not his type.

As for it being Gymshippy, well, it kind of is. I think that Brock sees Misty as a kid sister for the most part, but he does acknowledge that she can look very pretty when she makes the effort. These infrequent moments of appreciation aside, though, he isn't interested in her. Ash, on the other hand, responds to Misty in a romantic way in many other situations when Misty looks like her normal self. And the scene in The Ghost Of Maiden's Peak is far stronger than any time Brock has stared at Misty.

Swifty
25th January 2006, 1:22 AM
So in other words, you guys accept the fact that Misty and Ash haven't shown anything but platonic friendship together in AG. And in other words, you're just hoping that in the future that the writers dig into the "established backstory," and write Pokeshipping again despite the fact that they haven't done anything shippy between Misty and Ash in the last 5 years.

Thanks Swifty, that's all I wanted to hear. :D

Well my job here is done, it's been fun! ;)lol internet. We've said countless times in the previous thread that the interactions between Ash and Misty were platonic in the main series episodes she was in. And now all of a sudden you're putting that admission against us, despite the fact that we've already rationalized why their interactions were strictly platonic? Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

And how many times have we postulated that Misty has shown her feelings towards Ash post-Johto? No, you cannot claim that the writers "haven't done anything shippy between Misty and Ash in the last 5 years" because the Hosos proves that proclamation as erroneous.

Shatoshi
25th January 2006, 1:34 AM
Whatever......I'm out this is ruining my hope for Ash and May.

Rex Kamex
25th January 2006, 1:52 AM
...Because Misty's not on the show any more?

Does that even matter? Yes, Misty's not on the show anymore (which isn't exactly going to help with and relationship with her and Ash), but couldn't Ash do something else to "deny" his feelings and then blush. Couldn't he mention something about Misty, then Brock (the "love doctor" of the group) could mention that Ash and Misty would make a cute couple or something? Misty being away from Ash shouldn't mean that she shouldn't do anything about her relationship.

Seriously though, there are more fans making Pokeshipping more realistic than it really is. (Of course, the same thing goes for Advanceshipping.) To be honest, even if somebody did have feelings for each other, at this rate, nobody'll even confess their true love except Brock.

CyberCubed
25th January 2006, 2:06 AM
lol internet. We've said countless times in the previous thread that the interactions between Ash and Misty were platonic in the main series episodes she was in. And now all of a sudden you're putting that admission against us, despite the fact that we've already rationalized why their interactions were strictly platonic? Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

And how many times have we postulated that Misty has shown her feelings towards Ash post-Johto? No, you cannot claim that the writers "haven't done anything shippy between Misty and Ash in the last 5 years" because the Hosos proves that proclamation as erroneous.

The only thing you have is Misty denying a crush in the Delcatty episode, and that could have very well been about Tracey. She blushed when Casey asked her the first time, and then when Casey (and Psyduck) pester her AGAIN about the same thing, she blew up. That's the way I see it.


Yup. Both boys sat up and took notice when Misty got a costume change a hell of a lot more often than they do now with May. IMO, this proves that both Ash and Brock are more attracted to Misty than they are to May. In Brock's case, this is probably because May is so much younger than him. In Ash's... I dunno, perhaps May's just not his type.

As for it being Gymshippy, well, it kind of is. I think that Brock sees Misty as a kid sister for the most part, but he does acknowledge that she can look very pretty when she makes the effort. These infrequent moments of appreciation aside, though, he isn't interested in her. Ash, on the other hand, responds to Misty in a romantic way in many other situations when Misty looks like her normal self. And the scene in The Ghost Of Maiden's Peak is far stronger than any time Brock has stared at Misty.

You know Jo-Jo, that's actually a point against your argument about Ash not gushing over May.

Fact is, the writers have Ash AND Brock act very differently nowadays. Both Ash and Brock had moments in Kanto where they found Misty more attractive than usual, yet NEITHER say that for May.

Ash and Brock were both impressed the first time they see Misty in a bikini (banned ep) and in her Goldeen suit. Yet when May wears a bikni, appears in a Nurse outfit, or the princess dress, neither one make a comment.

I chalk this up to the writers writing their characters differently, as this is 2004-2006 and not 1998-1999. Different writers probably, different time period, and Ash and Brock have established characters now than their early Kanto counterparts.

Or maybe it's the fact that both Ash and Brock know May is a hell of a lot hotter than Misty, so they're not as shocked when she's in a bikini, because her breasts are already quite visible. :D

Jo-Jo
25th January 2006, 2:07 AM
Does that even matter? Yes, Misty's not on the show anymore (which isn't exactly going to help with and relationship with her and Ash), but couldn't Ash do something else to "deny" his feelings and then blush. Couldn't he mention something about Misty, then Brock (the "love doctor" of the group) could mention that Ash and Misty would make a cute couple or something?
That would be awfully random. I don't think the writers would refer to Ash's feelings for a character who isn't currently on the show. IMO, if they're planning to resurrect Pokeshipping further down the line, they probably mean to keep it on the backburner until Misty comes back to the main cast.

Magus
25th January 2006, 2:50 AM
The only thing you have is Misty denying a crush in the Delcatty episode, and that could have very well been about Tracey. She blushed when Casey asked her the first time, and then when Casey (and Psyduck) pester her AGAIN about the same thing, she blew up. That's the way I see it.
That's the way you want to see it. The problem is there's no logic to that explanation. When she's asked directly if Tracey is her boyfriend, with Tracey standing right there to see and hear the whole thing, she calmly says he's not and displays what might be the least noticable "blush" in anime history. A few minutes later in the same episode, she's asked if there's a guy she likes. No mention of Tracey, who's on the other side of town this time. Her this time she's clearly very embarassed and blushes very noticably. If Tracey is the guy she's thinking of in that scene, her reactions make no sense. It's obviously more embarassing to be asked if you're dating the person you have a secret crush on with that person right there to hear it, than to just be asked if there's anybody you like. Since her reactions don't make sense if she likes Tracey but do make sense if she likes Ash, the more sensible conclusion is that Misty still likes Ash romantically.

CyberCubed
25th January 2006, 2:55 AM
I disagree, and that's not what I "want" to see since I'm not an Orangeshipper, it's just the most likely scenario. Ash was not mentioned or referenced once in the entire episode.

On the other hand, Misty was already teased about liking Tracey in said episode. The blush was small, and it makes more sense that when Casey bugs her again, AND Psyduck makes fun of her, Misty has a greater reaction.

Swifty
25th January 2006, 2:59 AM
But she was already blushing harder and her behavior was way different than it was before, even before Psyduck popped out of his Pokeball.

Magus
25th January 2006, 3:07 AM
Again, Misty's reactions are backwards if it's Tracey she's thinking of in the second scene. When asked directly, in his presence, if Tracey is her boyfriend, Misty barely reacts. When asked if there's a guy she likes, with Tracey nowhere to be seen, Misty reacts...much like she would when people suggested Ash was her boyfriend.

If you also consider Misty's long-established backstory of romantic feelings for Ash and the fact that she's never indicated similar feelings for Tracey, Ash is by far the more believable candidate.

*Twilight Night*
25th January 2006, 5:18 AM
Wouldn't that scene just take place just a bit after Johto? She was still wearing the same clothes, and the time gap isn't large, don't even deserve the word large, so she still might of have "feelings' for Ash at that point. It could be early in the game. Then there is also the fact that there was the mention of Tracey. If it didn't mean anything, why did the writers even put Tracey in at all? Why the situation? Or even gave Misty a small blush for him, and probably the second scene being for him too. Why just keep Tracey visiting the gym altogether? It is either random or is implying something. I'll go for the one that makes more sense. If it was some hint at Misty's feelings, it wouldn't have been so vague.

Considering AG doesn't show any reaction or anything romantic or hinty when Ash and Misty interact, like many people have posted, she probably moved on after staying in the gym for awhile, and managing to do something worthwhile. And you have to consider Ash in this. Just cause a girl is crushing doesn't mean he has to follow. And it shows he isn't blatantly.

Swifty
25th January 2006, 5:48 AM
Wouldn't that scene just take place just a bit after Johto? She was still wearing the same clothes, and the time gap isn't large, don't even deserve the word large, so she still might of have "feelings' for Ash at that point. It could be early in the game.The point is that she's still feeling for Ash, even after she left him. From a producer and writer point of view, why are they reminding the viewers that Misty still has feelings for Ash if their intention was to make her crush fade like you guys claim they're doing? Afterall, wasn't Gotta Catch You Later supposed to be the episode where Misty's crush on Ash was finally resolved? If they knew right from the bat that May was going to be Ash's new love interest, why did they remind the viewers that Misty still has a crush on Ash? Considering how much development Misty gets post-Johto, showing Misty having a crush on Ash and then all of a sudden plan to revoke it doesn't make any sense at all.


Then there is also the fact that there was the mention of Tracey. If it didn't mean anything, why did the writers even put Tracey in at all? Why the situation? Or even gave Misty a small blush for him, and probably the second scene being for him too. Why just keep Tracey visiting the gym altogether? It is either random or is implying something. I'll go for the one that makes more sense. If it was some hint at Misty's feelings, it wouldn't have been so vague.Because the producers felt like it. Obviously out of all the main characters, Tracey had received the least screentime. The writers figured that the Misty Hosos was a good opportunity to get Tracey some more screentime, albeit, in limited roles. There's no indication that Tracey's inclusion in these episodes was inherently shippy.


Considering AG doesn't show any reaction or anything romantic or hinty when Ash and Misty interact, like many people have posted, she probably moved on after staying in the gym for awhile, and managing to do something worthwhile. No hints does not mean that Misty's crush has faded. The keywords here is plausible deniability. No evidence does not mean the evidence of absence. Unless we get evidence that conclusively proves otherwise, we get the luxury to continually assume Misty's feelings are still there. If they haven't told us anything, that simply means that they haven't told us anything.


And you have to consider Ash in this. Just cause a girl is crushing doesn't mean he has to follow. And it shows he isn't blatantly.Which is better to build a foundation on? Our one-sided ship or your no-sided ship?

Magus
25th January 2006, 5:54 AM
Or even gave Misty a small blush for him, and probably the second scene being for him too.
Why was the second scene (the one with a blush actually worthy of the name) probably for Tracey? I've explained several times why Misty's behavior makes no sense if Tracey is the one she's thinking about but is totally in keeping with her past reactions if it's Ash she's thinking of.

Atoyont
25th January 2006, 2:29 PM
The writers have changed the way they write- for the worse- in the recent years. I wish I could see the Hoso's, as they seem to hide a lot of hints.

However, Jo-Jo summed up pretty well all of our arguments. MJC CartoGuy, your argument of Ash and Misty fighting all the time was LOL. Ash and May bickered in one episode, the episode, the episode with BICKER in its name.

PokeProphet
25th January 2006, 4:00 PM
*Twilight Night*, I would like to react to some of your points, but I think it would be better off in the Pokeshipping vs. Orangeshipping thread, since it's mainly about that and not about Advanceshipping. Don't mean to be rude or to be mini-modding, but discussing Orangeshipping here is off-topic. The Ps v. Os thread can still be revived, btw. You need to be quick though, it will expire in three days.


Which is better to build a foundation on? Our one-sided ship or your no-sided ship?
Bullseye!

Alfonso
25th January 2006, 5:14 PM
*Twilight Night*, I would like to react to some of your points, but I think it would be better off in the Pokeshipping vs. Orangeshipping thread, since it's mainly about that and not about Advanceshipping. Don't mean to be rude or to be mini-modding, but discussing Orangeshipping here is off-topic. The Ps v. Os thread can still be revived, btw. You need to be quick though, it will expire in three days.


Bullseye!

No point reviving any Pokeshipping vs. Anything threads imo. Every single point has already been exhased, and any attempt to repeat them would just be even more boring than this new thread is. (Considering that every f*cking thread just turns into another Pokeshippers Defend Themselves Against Rival Shippers and That's It thread.)

Probably because there's hardly any decent Advanceshipper debaters apart from Cyber. All the other attempts have just been embarrassing imo.

Swifty
25th January 2006, 6:37 PM
*Twilight Night*, I would like to react to some of your points, but I think it would be better off in the Pokeshipping vs. Orangeshipping thread, since it's mainly about that and not about Advanceshipping. Don't mean to be rude or to be mini-modding, but discussing Orangeshipping here is off-topic. The Ps v. Os thread can still be revived, btw. You need to be quick though, it will expire in three days. I beg to differ. Other potential relationships are quite relevant to this conversation. Since we're discussing where Misty's heart lies, OrangeShipping is a credible argument to use against us. It's when the conversation goes beyond the two echelons of relationship discussion when things start getting noticeably off-topic.

Jo-Jo
25th January 2006, 8:24 PM
^ I agree, I think Orangeshipping is relevant so long as we can link it back to PS vs. AS in some way. I think most of us will agree that the writers are doing something with it. Misty and Tracey have now been romantically linked in the HoSos three times: when Sakura and Casey asked if they were a couple, and when Daisy fantasised about them in the play. There has to be a reason why they keep shoving the Misty/Tracey pairing in our faces. As I see it, there are two possible reasons why they're doing it. 1) They're writing Orangeshipping. 2) They're trying to make it clear that Misty and Tracey don't like each other like that. If we can figure out which it is, then the Pokeshipping issue will be settled.

Evidence for Orangeshipping/against Pokeshipping

- Orangeshipping has been brought up in three consecutive HoSos featuring Misty and Tracey. If this is intended as anti-shippy, then why do the writers need to keep hammering the point home?

- Misty has been settling down at the gym. She seems to be happy there. This doesn't bode well for her eventual return. It struck me from the HoSos that the writers are trying to resolve her character arc and give her a happy ending. It would make more sense to show her as unsatisfied with her work at the gym, if the plan was to eventually bring her back to the main cast and hook her up with Ash.


Evidence for Pokeshipping/against Orangeshipping

- Misty and Tracey's reactions to Sakura's, Casey's and Daisy's Orangeshipping suggestions are seriously lacklustre. The one time Misty's response is potentially shippy is the part with Casey, and even then it's much less strong than the other shippy denials we've seen before in the show.

- The difference in intensity between Misty's two blushes in A Date With Delcatty make much more sense if you assume she likes Ash than if you assume she likes Tracey.

- Misty and Tracey don't go all lovey-dovey when the Luvdisc use Attract.


Going from that, I'd say the anti-OS interpretation fits the evidence better than the pro-OS one. But Pokeshipping has some holes in it, too.

Mamoru
25th January 2006, 10:05 PM
Evidence for Orangeshipping/against Pokeshipping

- Orangeshipping has been brought up in three consecutive HoSos featuring Misty and Tracey. If this is intended as anti-shippy, then why do the writers need to keep hammering the point home?

Quite simply....it became a running joke. They're the two main characters for HoSo, always seen together in the episodes....frankly, if two people of that age were together that much in real life in Japan, and didn't have feelings for one another, then they'd be forced to make denials repeatedly too.


- Misty has been settling down at the gym. She seems to be happy there. This doesn't bode well for her eventual return. It struck me from the HoSos that the writers are trying to resolve her character arc and give her a happy ending. It would make more sense to show her as unsatisfied with her work at the gym, if the plan was to eventually bring her back to the main cast and hook her up with Ash.

That she's settling down is entirely irrelevant to who she still has feelings for. For all we know, she's just got too used to having a soft bed to sleep on to go on the road like she used to.

Rex Kamex
26th January 2006, 12:43 AM
That would be awfully random. I don't think the writers would refer to Ash's feelings for a character who isn't currently on the show. IMO, if they're planning to resurrect Pokeshipping further down the line, they probably mean to keep it on the backburner until Misty comes back to the main cast.

Isn't it a little too late for Misty to come back like that? She's been gone for over a total of 150 episodes with no sign of coming back permanently. (Brock was only gone for 30, even though the Orange Islands didn't have as many gyms to take over a lot of episodes.) She's been gone (for the most part anyway) for over three years, and if the writers really wanted to bring her back, they would have done it by now. Apparently though, the show seems to be getting along without her anyway. I'm not a Misty hater or anything like that, but what are the chances of her coming back for the next arc?

And even if she did come back, there's still no guarantee that there will even be hints like in the old days. Like CyberCubed said, the writers have changed in the last few years.


That she's settling down is entirely irrelevant to who she still has feelings for. For all we know, she's just got too used to having a soft bed to sleep on to go on the road like she used to.

So that means she can completely forget about her crush just because she's relaxed if that was the case. However, she really is settling down. Wasn't there a Hoso (with the boy who had a crush on Misty (not Ash)) where Daisy came back to the gym and said that Misty didn't have to be the gym leader anymore? Afterwards, she visited Ash for a little bit, and that was it (besides watching him on TV). If she could be free to travel with Ash, why wouldn't she? She shouldn't let her settlement stop her (though I know you said for all we know).

Atoyont
26th January 2006, 12:52 AM
Three years? That's funny. At the Indigo Plateau, someone stated that the Leages take place once every year. Misty's been gone for 1 1/2 years at the most.

CyberCubed
26th January 2006, 12:54 AM
He's talking about real life time. -_-

It's been nearly 4 years since she left the show.

Jo-Jo
26th January 2006, 12:58 AM
I don't see why that would be a barrier to Misty returning. For anyone in the audience who doesn't know who she is, it'll be no different to a new character joining the cast. And I think it's highly unlikely that many people will even be in that position, considering that Misty's been in two AG episodes, three BF ones and about five HoSo specials.

Shatoshi
26th January 2006, 12:58 AM
yes and May has been on for almost the same time as Misty (may will be on more by december I think^^)

Atoyont
26th January 2006, 2:02 AM
He's talking about real life time. -_-

It's been nearly 4 years since she left the show.

Let me play dumb. (it's fun)
And she didn't leave the show. She's still in it.

Magus
26th January 2006, 2:03 AM
yes and May has been on for almost the same time as Misty (may will be on more by december I think^^)
Counting Hosos, Misty's been in 284 episodes. May's been in 160.

CyberCubed
26th January 2006, 2:04 AM
Let me play dumb. (it's fun)
And she didn't leave the show. She's still in it.

Jesus Christ, I know that. She left the show as a main character and now she's just a minor recurring character. She's no more important than Tracey or Prof. Oak now.

Atoyont
26th January 2006, 2:15 AM
She will come back as a main character, better and more active in the show then ever before!!
That's my opinion.

CyberCubed
26th January 2006, 2:21 AM
She will come back as a main character, better and more active in the show then ever before!!
That's my opinion.

That's wishful thinking, not an opinion.

Magus
26th January 2006, 2:24 AM
Wishful thinking? I could say the same about the idea that Ash and May will get together despite showing no romantic interest in each other, ever.

STJ
26th January 2006, 3:33 AM
That doesn't change the fact that T Lord's post wasn't based upon factual

Atoyont
26th January 2006, 2:05 PM
Misty has become more confident as a trainer, hence why I think that.
And you're free to think whatever you want, STJ and CyberCubed, just like I can.

intergalactic platypus
26th January 2006, 3:58 PM
Cyber, perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing someone else for wishful thinking. You after all seem convinced that advanceshipping will be canon, so it could also easily be said about you ;)

STJ
26th January 2006, 10:15 PM
Cyber, perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing someone else for wishful thinking. You after all seem convinced that advanceshipping will be canon, so it could also easily be said about you ;)

It's not as though CyberCubed suggested that wishing thinking was a bad thing, but the fact remains that it was wishful thinking. He's free to believe what he wants, of course.

My point is, given the information that we currently have, his belief is no more valid than another who believes that Misty won't return

Convinced? I have never heard an Advanceshipper say that they were 100% sure that Advanceshipping was going to happen. For the most part, they just hope that will be the case

The Red Butterfly
26th January 2006, 11:01 PM
For one thing I don't think either ship will work out due to Ash, but I have to say pokeshipping is most likely bcuz they've already put in to many hints to not do anything about them!!

Raevell
27th January 2006, 7:07 PM
For one thing I don't think either ship will work out due to Ash, but I have to say pokeshipping is most likely bcuz they've already put in to many hints to not do anything about them!!

I disagree with that. Different times, different intentions... I don't think that the writers are even referring back to the Kanto seasons. Ask them five or six years ago and they probably would have never expected for the show to go on so long or even considered replacing Misty.

And Ash has shown no opposition to the affections of the opposite sex. ;) He's just not one to make the first move. Though I do feel that the only way either pairing would 'hook up' is if they pulled a Digimon and did a final episode where the characters are older.

The Red Butterfly
27th January 2006, 10:41 PM
True, but figuring May is hung up on contsts I don't think she'll be making the first move either!!!

intergalactic platypus
27th January 2006, 11:06 PM
I think if shippers are expecting either to ask the other out before the shows end they will be dissapointed ;). Chances are if two characters do become a couple it will be at the end of the series to avoid the messiness of trying to write in a relationship on a show focused around pokemon battles

The Red Butterfly
27th January 2006, 11:10 PM
ya and so even if anyone do go out we won't get to see it:( *Crosses fingers and hopes it ends with Ash and Misty*

Shatoshi
28th January 2006, 2:50 AM
True, but figuring May is hung up on contsts I don't think she'll be making the first move either!!!

Definitly not true^^

The Red Butterfly
28th January 2006, 3:39 AM
want to explain yourself a bit more???????????

Shatoshi
28th January 2006, 7:19 PM
Well like in Love at first flight may will stop anything to match true love (espesially for ash). Also I will admit that at this point Advanceshipping is one sided (may likes Ash), but Ash is warming up to her. Pokeshipping WAS cannon, but died after the Indigo leauge. Orangeshipping came along and Johto had little to no hints AND signs of ANY ship. Plus all signs point towards May staying on till the end (adding contests to reigons that never had them, ie Kanto)^^

The Red Butterfly
28th January 2006, 7:56 PM
Well we know May is staying on until the end but Misty makes appearences, and we won't know how Ash feels about either girl until the end, if the writers fell like putting it in, Because they could put Misty in the last episode as Ashs gf or keep May, but still pokeshipping makes more sense figuring they put in contestshipping into the show!!

Shatoshi
28th January 2006, 7:59 PM
...Yeah right....I have a gut feeling that that wont hapern

The Red Butterfly
28th January 2006, 8:03 PM
well then how do you know advaceshipping is ging to happen?????? I mean yeah it pretty is one sided ship if anything (even though I don't see hoe figuring I haven't seen any hints from either one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) At least there were pokeshipping hints from BOTH Ash and Misty, I highly doubt they're going to make advaceshipping happen because if they were they probably would have done something about it by now (my opinion!!!)

AdvancedK9
28th January 2006, 8:05 PM
MMmm
well advanceshipping sounds the best i dont know why pokeshippers never give up ya all are dedicated to the wrong shipping arent ya all thinking about the consequences for each shipping? in pokeshipping it seemed that misty was gonna be too bossy shes 11 and ash is 10 may is better causeshe cheers more for ash than misty for ash so as you can see there are bad consequences in pokeshippers and satoshi and the writers knowthat more than any other living person in the world even than me and i trust deep in my heart there WILL be advanceshipping and i know that you pokeshippers know
you all are choosing the path of sadness, darkness, and depression

intergalactic platypus
28th January 2006, 9:30 PM
Mayash, you make me weep tears of blood for the state of humanity. Honestly. And Satoshi EX, would you mind elaborating a bit more as to how May likes Ash? I'm not trying to be defiant or obnoxious, I'm asking a serious question as to why you think May has a crush on Ash

Shatoshi
28th January 2006, 11:17 PM
its just the way she acts around him and Mayash....you give us a bad name......*thwacks*

intergalactic platypus
29th January 2006, 3:06 AM
Examples? Debating requires you use examples as evidence to back up your theory. Once again not to be rude but I can't debate your opinion if you don't present me with why you believe it

Umi Mizuno
29th January 2006, 3:33 AM
MMmm
well advanceshipping sounds the best i dont know why pokeshippers never give up ya all are dedicated to the wrong shipping arent ya all thinking about the consequences for each shipping? in pokeshipping it seemed that misty was gonna be too bossy shes 11 and ash is 10 may is better causeshe cheers more for ash than misty for ash so as you can see there are bad consequences in pokeshippers and satoshi and the writers knowthat more than any other living person in the world even than me and i trust deep in my heart there WILL be advanceshipping and i know that you pokeshippers know
you all are choosing the path of sadness, darkness, and depression

XDDDD That is so funny! HAHAHAHHA! ok, i'll stop. Serious time now. And excuse me.. Wrong shipping? If May leaves the show and the writers replace her with another girl people will start making a shipping out of that. Then we will just repeat what you just said. Quote, "all ya never give up ya all are dedicated to the wrong shipping arent ya all thinking about the consequences for each shipping?" Unquote. NEWS FLASH You are just putting your opinions in there. I don't see one speck of evidence in your paragraph. And you say you think Advanceshipping is better then Pokeshipping because May cheers more then Misty does? Hello! Reality check please. You are just saying that. Do you have any proof? Misty has been with Ash since Episode 1. Misty has been with Ash for 5 seasons. May however has only been in 2. And what do you mean by bad consequences? We could just say the same to you. And YOU trust deep in your heart that advanceshipping will become canon? *maniacal laughter* MY gosh, you and all the other millions of shippers who think that too. And you really think that's going to happen? You think that we have chosen the path of sadness, darkness, and depression? I think someone would go pretty low to say that to a shipping. And yes right now you are bashing a shipping and shippers by saying they have chose the inccorrect path. You're reason is mere propaganda and derogatry. Next time THINK about what you're saying.


Examples? Debating requires you use examples as evidence to back up your theory. Once again not to be rude but I can't debate your opinion if you don't present me with why you believe it

I agree. And this is beginning to be like what Swifty said he didn't want. Truthiness. And it's beginning to look like that.

I don't want to see any truthiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness) in this thread, peoples.

Meganium Ex
29th January 2006, 3:36 PM
Just to say: PokéShippers belive "The Bicker, the Better!" wasn't an AdvanceShipping hint episode because the couple was obssesed with love, so they could've said that "You 2 are in love!" to any group of 2 people. But if AdvanceShipping wasn't in the episode, why did they make it? Sure, there are filler episodes, but that episode, IMO, wasn't just a filler. If half of the episode was foucused on Ash and May bickering, and the other half was foucused on the couple beliving Ash and May were in love (Or hiding their true feelings), I'm sure it wasn't just another filler

Why would they make an episode foucusing on Ash any May's feelings and bickering if it had no reason for it; it was just a pointless epi?

intergalactic platypus
29th January 2006, 5:16 PM
Ah the infamous TBTB. Take this into consideration: why would the writers bother putting rocketshipping in an ep too if it wasn't rocketshippy? They've put Jesse and James into episodes just to hurt the ship. Hell, rocketshipping isn't just dead; it was abducted, tortured, gang-style murdered, and had its corpse thrown into a ditch yet that appears in episodes. Why not put advanceshipping in an ep to demonstrate to viewers that Ash and May are not a couple as well?

Jo-Jo
29th January 2006, 5:35 PM
*insert HEADDESK here* at the idea that half of TBTB was about Ash and May being called a couple. Two minutes, more like.

In any case, I think the main reason those lines were in there was because it was funny. Some crazy love-obsessed couple getting the complete wrong idea about Ash and May's relationship was very amusing to me. It's also a delightful spoof on the way some viewers are about shipping. And it's a good way to make it clear to the audience that Ash and May don't like each other like that.

Shatoshi
29th January 2006, 8:13 PM
Haty YOU guys think that dancing at a stupid festival is a hint, who else was he gonna dance with? Brock? Pikachu? he didnt know anyone else there! besides the whole he thought she looked good thing! well so did Brock, me , and about 10 thousand or so other viewers (yes I think misty is still hot^^).

And Umi_mizumo you are right bout Mayash^^

Umi Mizuno
29th January 2006, 8:49 PM
Haty YOU guys think that dancing at a stupid festival is a hint, who else was he gonna dance with? Brock? Pikachu? he didnt know anyone else there! besides the whole he thought she looked good thing! well so did Brock, me , and about 10 thousand or so other viewers (yes I think misty is still hot^^).

And Umi_mizumo you are right bout Mayash^^

Thank you. And that dancing is a hint too. He could've danced with himself but he decided to dance with Misty. And plus Ash was staring at her and until Misty told him to dance, that's when he followed her and did the dance. And that thing about Mayash, I'm still laughing.

Meganium Ex
29th January 2006, 10:16 PM
*insert HEADDESK here* at the idea that half of TBTB was about Ash and May being called a couple. Two minutes, more like.
An episode is about 20 mintues, and at least 8 minutes took part in the battle between Ash and May and Oscar and Andy where they kept saying TONS of things about love, plus at least 2 more when they meet and leave


In any case, I think the main reason those lines were in there was because it was funny. 1) Some crazy love-obsessed couple getting the complete wrong idea about Ash and May's relationship was very amusing to me. It's also a delightful spoof on the way some viewers are about shipping. 2) And it's a good way to make it clear to the audience that Ash and May don't like each other like that.
1) We don't even KNOW if Ash and May have feelings for each other; sure, it's unlikely, but we still can't determite anything yet

2) Same as above


Ah the infamous TBTB. Take this into consideration: why would the writers bother putting rocketshipping in an ep too if it wasn't rocketshippy? They've put Jesse and James into episodes just to hurt the ship. 1) Hell, rocketshipping isn't just dead; it was abducted, tortured, gang-style murdered, and had its corpse thrown into a ditch yet that appears in episodes. Why not put advanceshipping in an ep to demonstrate to viewers that Ash and May are not a couple as well?
1) Well, was the way that RS was torn apart involved love situations? Guess not. It is dead, but because they ALWAYS argued, never agreed on anything, ect. But did it involve a couple calling them a couple? Nope

Also, notice how PokéShipping hasn't recive any hints since Johto. IMO, it seems it was torn apart too. Was Ash even happy-as-can-be when he saw Misty at his house? No

Oh yes, Mayash, please make a point next time. Thanx :D

Swifty
29th January 2006, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Joanna to save her typing time:

Once again, STRONG objection from this corner to the idea that the entire episode was about Advanceshipping. I mean, really! But I will agree that the writers are aware of the ship and were blatant about bringing it into the open. They are also clearly aware of Contestshipping and have been even more blatant about bringing that ship into the open. Are they planning to make May a bigamist? Doubtful. So that's one hole in your argument right away - we know that one of these ships must be a red herring.

Personally, I think that the purpose of the 'Advanceshippy' bits in TBTB was to make it clear to the audience that Ash and May aren't interested in each other that way. I've already covered their not-especially-inspiring reactions and the way that they pretty well forget all about it once the tag battle couple have left, but here are a couple of other reasons for my explanation:

1. The Ash/May relationship was pointedly parallelled with the Jessie/James one throughout the episode. J&J were informed by Oscar and Andi that they were madly in love in the exact same manner as Ash and May were. Their answers were about the same, too. So if you want to argue that the episode was Advanceshippy, you also have to argue that it was Rocketshippy, and I may be a Rocketshipper, but I have no illusions about the current state of Jessie and James's relationship. Those two simply do not fancy each other. At all.

There hadn't been any hints for Rocketshipping since Kanto. And on top of that, there was some strong evidence against the ship not all that long before TBTB, in Love At First Flight. There's a scene where Jessie gets excited at the fact that they're at a festival that will bring luck in love to anyone who sees it. James replies, "but I thought it only worked on people who are already in love?", which destroys the idea that he and Jessie have been dating all this time (a popular theory). Jessie then goes into a fantasy sequence about how she will meet her Prince Charming and he will sweep her off her feet, etc, etc. The fact that she is daydreaming about meeting someone new suggests she isn't exactly pining after James. And James doesn't get at all jealous or offended, which suggests that he doesn't mind that Jessie wants someone other than him.

So if TBTB was meant to be Rocketshippy, we have to believe that the ship had been in steady decline ever since season one, with strong indications in Hoenn that Jessie and James weren't interested in each other, and then suddenly, just for this one episode, the writers not only made them like each other, but brought the ship right out into the open by having Oscar and Andi state out loud that J&J were in love. Then they apparently forgot all about this idea, never included another hint afterwards, and eventually killed the ship off for good.

Whereas if we follow my theory, then all we have to believe is that Rocketshipping ceased to exist some time ago and the writers have taken some efforts in Hoenn to make that clear, most notably with TBTB and the Manene ep. You have to admit, it's a much less convoluted idea.

2. Oscar and Andi were portrayed as total lunatics. They prance around the forest in Roses of Versaille costumes challenging couples to battles, for goodness sakes. When fighting, they preface each attack with "show us the love!" They even add the word 'love' into the attack names. It's made very clear that they have romance permanently on the brain and see it everywhere. One of the parts of the episode that always gets a giggle from me is when Ash and May deny being a couple - whatever they say, Oscar and Andi just happily claim that it only further proves their feelings. They introduce themselves with "seeing how much in love you two appear to be"... right when Ash and May are screaming their heads off at each other. Erm, I'm a big believer in fighting=suppressed hidden feelings, but fighting=blissful couplehood? Does not compute. They call Ash and May a "happy couple" as they leave - are they blind or something? The kids are clearly not happy! Neither are they a couple, even if you do believe that they secretly like each other.

Besides which, if you 'know' that Ash and May aren't interested in each other, then the scene with Oscar and Andi becomes downright hilarious. It is extremely funny to watch them cheerfully twist everything Ash and May say into evidence of their pure and perfect love, when in actuality Ash and May don't fancy each other, are currently in the middle of a raging fight because they're angry with each other and not due to any repressed romantic feelings, and are getting more and more exasperated with this weird love-obsessed couple by the minute. It makes me laugh, that's for sure.


Haty YOU guys think that dancing at a stupid festival is a hint, who else was he gonna dance with?The dancing wasn't a hint. It's more of a meta-hint to me. Sure, it was nice to see and it conveyed PokeShipping to the audience, but that's beside the point. Ash seeing Misty as attractive is indeed a hint, considering he almost never shows any interest in girls. Last time I checked, there hasn't been a single time of when Ash has considered May attractive.

Shatoshi
30th January 2006, 1:46 AM
Frankly, advanceshipping is more likelt at this point...im not saying it exsists yet but if any ash ship exists in the future it will probably be advanceshipping. same for may...Brendan wont be in the show any time soon and just like you say about TBTB the Contest shipping hints are ther to prove that there is NOTHING between may and drew. and harley......he's gay anyways.

The Red Butterfly
30th January 2006, 1:50 AM
They put contestshipping hints in because they WABT it to happen they wouldn't put it in if they didn't want to pokeshipping HAD hints as for advanceshipping there were none!!!!!

Swifty
30th January 2006, 1:53 AM
Excuse me? Nothing between May and Drew?

* Caroline's teasing of May:

TAKESHI: Isn't that Shuu?
HARUKA: Yes. I have to tell you something..
MITSUKO: That's what I call 'young love'!
HARUKA: That's not true!

* Harley's suspicion of something occuring between May and Drew:

HARLEY: Shuu-kun, the most noteworthy Coordinator at the moment! You're
friends with such a famous person, Haruka-chan?
HARUKA: Not correct. Shuu's always making fun of me!
HARLEY: What are you talking about? You got a rose from him, a
rose!...Wait a sec, I guess you two are in love then...I guess!
HARUKA: Harley-san!

* Drew's flirting with May (Biggest example I can muster up):

May: I suppose this rose is for Beautifly, right?
Drew: Yeah... something like that...

* Stares after him, blushing and smiling, while he's walking away (GF part 3)
* Drew getting jealous of Harley.

Shatoshi
30th January 2006, 1:59 AM
well then all that proves is that drew likes may and everyone thinks they make a cute (but maybe not good) couple but may has NO feelings for drew its pretty clear that may likes ash and ive already explained why......to bad ash is to dumb to realize may is perfect for him^^

Swifty
30th January 2006, 2:02 AM
well then all that proves is that drew likes may and everyone thinks they make a cute (but maybe not good) couple but may has NO feelings for drew its pretty clear that may likes ash and ive already explained why......to bad ash is to dumb to realize may is perfect for him^^No, May clearly likes Drew. It should've been clear after reading these hints:

* Caroline's teasing of May:

TAKESHI: Isn't that Shuu?
HARUKA: Yes. I have to tell you something..
MITSUKO: That's what I call 'young love'!
HARUKA: That's not true!

* Stares after him, blushing and smiling, while he's walking away (GF part 3)

* Harley's suspicion of something occuring between May and Drew:

HARLEY: Shuu-kun, the most noteworthy Coordinator at the moment! You're
friends with such a famous person, Haruka-chan?
HARUKA: Not correct. Shuu's always making fun of me!
HARLEY: What are you talking about? You got a rose from him, a
rose!...Wait a sec, I guess you two are in love then...I guess!
HARUKA: Harley-san!

(Note, May goes into a gigantic blushing fit)

Where was this hint that shows May liking Ash?

Shatoshi
30th January 2006, 2:05 AM
1) that is my point I blush when people say I like siomeone I dont because it is embarrasing

2) may always act around ash the way I do around someone I like (romanitcly I am just like may^^)

Swifty
30th January 2006, 2:15 AM
1) that is my point I blush when people say I like siomeone I dont because it is embarrasingWhereas, we see May not blushing at all during The Bicker, The Better. If May had her crush revealed to ALL THE WORLD, I would expect her to have a similar reaction like she does when Caroline teases her about Drew or when Harley suspects there's something going on between May and Drew.

And that still doesn't explain why May was staring and blushing at Drew as he walked off the beach, failing to ignore Ash and company as they approach her. It wasn't until Ash physically shoves an ice cream cone into her face to get her out of her love-induced trance.


2) may always act around ash the way I do around someone I like (romanitcly I am just like may^^)That's complete truthiness. Anything regarding what you feel is irrelevent to what the writers, producers, and directors feel regarding how they should handle behavior concerning a character's secret love interest.

Rex Kamex
30th January 2006, 2:48 AM
Ah the infamous TBTB. Take this into consideration: why would the writers bother putting rocketshipping in an ep too if it wasn't rocketshippy? They've put Jesse and James into episodes just to hurt the ship. Hell, rocketshipping isn't just dead; it was abducted, tortured, gang-style murdered, and had its corpse thrown into a ditch yet that appears in episodes. Why not put advanceshipping in an ep to demonstrate to viewers that Ash and May are not a couple as well?

They didn't emphasize the love with Jessie and James as much as they did with Ash and May, and that was not because this was the second time the loving couple said that two people were in love.


Thank you. And that dancing is a hint too. He could've danced with himself but he decided to dance with Misty. And plus Ash was staring at her and until Misty told him to dance, that's when he followed her and did the dance. And that thing about Mayash, I'm still laughing.

It would've been awkward for him to dance with himself. By the way, it would also have been awkward for him to dance with Pikachu or Brock. Speaking of Brock, Brock asked Misty to dance in the episode with Bill's lighthouse. Sure it wasn't the exact same way with Ash and Misty, but that still shouldn't be something to forget.


She will come back as a main character, better and more active in the show then ever before!!
That's my opinion.

And you say my argument was LOL? I hate to say this, but at this rate, she's pretty gone though. The only way she could really regain her status as a main character is if she joins Ash in the next arc.

♥~Darkness Within~♥
30th January 2006, 2:53 AM
They didn't emphasize the love with Jessie and James as much as they did with Ash and May, and that was not because this was the second time the loving couple said that two people were in love.



It would've been awkward for him to dance with himself. By the way, it would also have been awkward for him to dance with Pikachu or Brock. Speaking of Brock, Brock asked Misty to dance in the episode with Bill's lighthouse. Sure it wasn't the exact same way with Ash and Misty, but that still shouldn't be something to forget.



And you say my argument was LOL? I hate to say this, but at this rate, she's pretty gone though. The only way she could really regain her status as a main character is if she joins Ash in the next arc.Well she could join the next one after that but she will become a main charecter, I don't see any hints with Advancedshipping at all

Swifty
30th January 2006, 3:06 AM
It would've been awkward for him to dance with himself. By the way, it would also have been awkward for him to dance with Pikachu or Brock. Speaking of Brock, Brock asked Misty to dance in the episode with Bill's lighthouse. Sure it wasn't the exact same way with Ash and Misty, but that still shouldn't be something to forget.Well, considering the episode was all about love and romance, it's not a very big coincidence that the producers and storyboarders purposely and blatantly showed Ash and Misty in a romantic light. It's undeniable that Ash was attracted to Misty in that final scene when they showed Misty in the perspective of Ash, giving her a bubbly background and having a harp playing as a sound effect. I would know, because it was the episode that made me kawaiiploded and made me a PokeShipper. ^__________^


They didn't emphasize the love with Jessie and James as much as they did with Ash and May, and that was not because this was the second time the loving couple said that two people were in love.Jo-Jo already had that covered :D :


Ash and May got more focus because they're the main characters and the episode started out with them, only bringing in Jessie and James after A&M had already lost to the tag battle couple (I think...?). But it is undeniable that Jessie and James were very painstakingly and deliberately paralleled with Ash and May. Both pairs were fighting about the same topic; both were accused of being in love; both lost the battle to Oscar and Andi; both ended up bickering all day; both ended up teaming up with 'the opposition' in a literal battle of the sexes; and so on. There are even scenes which cut between the Ash/May and Jessie/James fighting.

Magus
30th January 2006, 9:55 AM
well then all that proves is that drew likes may and everyone thinks they make a cute (but maybe not good) couple but may has NO feelings for drew its pretty clear that may likes ash and ive already explained why......
Somehow I missed the explanation. I also missed any hints in AG that May thinks of Ash as anything more than a friend. You wanting her to like him or "feeling" that she does is not a hint.

Shatoshi
30th January 2006, 12:35 PM
Well I just got up so i dont want to explain things but swifty...try to keep CONTESTSHIPPING into its own thread.

Swifty
30th January 2006, 12:54 PM
Well I just got up so i dont want to explain things but swifty...try to keep CONTESTSHIPPING into its own thread.I beg to differ. Other potential relationships are quite relevant to this conversation. Since we're discussing where May's heart lies, ContestShipping is a credible argument to use against you guys, just like how OrangeShipping is a credible argument to use against us. It's when the conversation goes beyond the two echelons of relationship discussion when things start getting noticeably off-topic.

Raevell
31st January 2006, 5:15 AM
No, May clearly likes Drew. It should've been clear after reading these hints:

* Caroline's teasing of May:

TAKESHI: Isn't that Shuu?
HARUKA: Yes. I have to tell you something..
MITSUKO: That's what I call 'young love'!
HARUKA: That's not true!


Hold on a second, when the heck was this decided? For the past six months I have been hearing a completely different translation for that. Caroline said something about Drew being a good coordinator, didn't she? If she had said this I would have thought it to be all over the contestshipping debate thread...

The dance... Well, Brock and Misty also danced and in a much more suggestive way than Ash and Misty ever did. They actually put their hands on each other. -_-;; Misty didn't so much dance with Ash, as much as she asked him if she wanted to join her in dancing. There's a difference.

Yikes, I can't believe I'm actually getting involved in this thread. @_@

♥~Darkness Within~♥
31st January 2006, 5:19 AM
Hold on a second, when the heck was this decided? For the past six months I have been hearing a completely different translation for that. Caroline said something about Drew being a good coordinator, didn't she? If she had said this I would have thought it to be all over the contestshipping debate thread...

The dance... Well, Brock and Misty also danced and in a much more suggestive way than Ash and Misty ever did. They actually put their hands on each other. -_-;; Misty didn't so much dance with Ash, as much as she asked him if she wanted to join her in dancing. There's a difference.

Yikes, I can't believe I'm actually getting involved in this thread. @_@
well dancing still a hint isn't it

STJ
31st January 2006, 5:20 AM
Not to everybody it isin't

Raevell
31st January 2006, 5:27 AM
well dancing still a hint isn't it

It all depends on the dance. I've danced with my friends before and I certainly wouldn't say it was at all suggesting that we have feelings for each other beyond friendship. Blech. ^^;

Now if it was a slow dance, where their arms wrapped around each other...

Besides, as I've said, if you consider dancing a hint than Misty must have feelings for Brock as well, yes?

Swifty
31st January 2006, 5:29 AM
Hold on a second, when the heck was this decided? For the past six months I have been hearing a completely different translation for that. Caroline said something about Drew being a good coordinator, didn't she? If she had said this I would have thought it to be all over the contestshipping debate thread...Sushi translated it about two months ago. But if you have a problem with that translation, fine, let's fall back on the "Drew is amazing" line:


That part would still be shippy no matter what adjective you substitute. The gist of the scene is that Caroline teases May about liking Drew by dropping in some innuendo-ridden line about how great he is, while smirking like Cassidy on speed. It's a bit of an insult to everyone's intelligence to pretend that the kids who watch the show are too dim to figure out what Caroline is getting at just because she didn't state what was on her mind in 100% unambiguous terms. Secondly, even if they didn't get it from that scene alone, they probably would when putting it together with Harley's line in the first episode.


The dance... Well, Brock and Misty also danced and in a much more suggestive way than Ash and Misty ever did. They actually put their hands on each other. -_-;; Misty didn't so much dance with Ash, as much as she asked him if she wanted to join her in dancing. There's a difference....Except that Ash clearly saw Misty as attractive in that last scene of the Ghost of the Maiden's Peak, cued by the bubbly backgrounds and the harp playing as a sound effect. Having Misty asking Ash to dance with her was just sugar on top.

Why are we arguing this? If you're trying to get at the fact that PokeShipping wasn't canon during Kanto... Enjoy the uphill battle.

STJ
31st January 2006, 5:30 AM
I guess people see the same thing differently then

Raevell
31st January 2006, 5:44 AM
Sushi translated it about two months ago. But if you have a problem with that translation, fine, let's fall back on the "Drew is amazing" line:

I was merely curious because I had been hearing something different for the past six months. And, hey, Mom's tease, but they're not always right.




...Except that Ash clearly saw Misty as attractive in that last scene of the Ghost of the Maiden's Peak, cued by the bubbly backgrounds and the harp playing as a sound effect. Having Misty asking Ash to dance with her was just sugar on top.

Yeah, and Brock did the same gaze at Misty in the Princess vs. Princess episode.


Why are we arguing this? If you're trying to get at the fact that PokeShipping wasn't canon during Kanto... Enjoy the uphill battle.

Canon is when something happens undoubtedly. It was not canon, because there has been no official hook up or admission of feelings. Not even in their heads. It's canon that in the beginning the writers were hinting at it but Ash and Misty is not a canon pairing.


I guess people see the same thing differently then

I believe that is why shipping debates exist in the first place. ;) That statement says it all.

Swifty
31st January 2006, 6:23 AM
Yeah, and Brock did the same gaze at Misty in the Princess vs. Princess episode.Uh... Those two scenes can't be set as standards to each other as they have entirely different contexts and connotations. Brock's seeing Misty as attractive can't possibly be seen as romantic, considering Ash, Pikachu, and Brock's collective view of her didn't have the same romantic audio cue in Ash's individual perspective of viewing Misty. Plus, the setting itself in that episode lacked the romantic setting that the Maiden's Peak episode had. It's not a big coincidence that Ash and Misty happened to be shown in a romantic light, contrasting with Brock and James' awful love collision mishap. Even if the writers didn't intend for that episode to be PokeShippy, the inclusion of that scene doesn't add up, considering how they followed up the Ash x Misty concept into the Orange Islands.


And, hey, Mom's tease, but they're not always right.
One character suggesting ContestShipping? Fine, it can be argued as an anomaly. However, it gets awfully suspicious where the writers are headed if they have two characters in the same episode suggesting the possibility of ContestShipping, have Drew be jealous of Harley's interactions with May, have her staring at Drew as he's walking off the beach without even noticing Ash and Company walking towards her, and have her STILL staring at Drew, even after Ash and Company get her attention, this time blushing for no apparent reason.


Canon is when something happens undoubtedly. It was not canon, because there has been no official hook up or admission of feelings. Not even in their heads. It's canon that in the beginning the writers were hinting at it but Ash and Misty is not a canon pairing.Bolded mine. Your definition of canon may differ from my definition of canon. However, we both seem to agree that the writers were writing PokeShipping at the time, regardless of the magnitude in which it has been portrayed in.

Raevell
31st January 2006, 7:06 AM
Uh... Those two scenes can't be set as standards to each other as they have entirely different contexts and connotations. Brock's seeing Misty as attractive can't possibly be seen as romantic, considering Ash, Pikachu, and Brock's collective view of her didn't have the same romantic audio cue in Ash's individual perspective of viewing Misty. Plus, the setting itself in that episode lacked the romantic setting that the Maiden's Peak episode had. It's not a big coincidence that Ash and Misty happened to be shown in a romantic light, contrasting with Brock and James' awful love collision mishap. Even if the writers didn't intend for that episode to be PokeShippy, the inclusion of that scene doesn't add up, considering how they followed up the Ash x Misty concept into the Orange Islands.

I completely disagree with you. Just because the episode focused on a romantic tale does not make whatever comes afterwards more hinty or not. Ash was also stunned when Misty showed up in a bathing suit in the banned episode, but due to his dialogue it is obvious that he was oogling Misty due to shock about her difference in appearance and not because he found her attractive.

But the writers never did anything definite with the couple is my opinion.

Besides finding someone pretty does not equal love. Ash found Giselle much prettier than he ever did Misty.



One character suggesting ContestShipping? Fine, it can be argued as an anomaly. However, it gets awfully suspicious where the writers are headed if they have two characters in the same episode suggesting the possibility of ContestShipping, have Drew be jealous of Harley's interactions with May, have her staring at Drew as he's walking off the beach without even noticing Ash and Company walking towards her have her, and have her STILL staring at Drew, even after Ash and Company get her attention, this time blushing for no apparent reason.

I will not argue on this as I have not seen these episodes.



Bolded mine. Your definition of canon may differ from my definition of canon. However, we both seem to agree that the writers were writing PokeShipping at the time, regardless of the magnitude in which it has been portrayed in.

But I also think that it was one-sided and that the writers have no real intention of doing anything with it from this point on. What they were interested in conveying to the audience in the beginning has changed.

Swifty
31st January 2006, 7:49 AM
I completely disagree with you. Just because the episode focused on a romantic tale does not make whatever comes afterwards more hinty or not.And I somehow doubt the writers are that tactless that they would mistakenly show Ash and Misty in a suggestive romantic light right after they have an entire episode dedicated to romance.
Ash was also stunned when Misty showed up in a bathing suit in the banned episode, but due to his dialogue it is obvious that he was oogling Misty due to shock about her difference in appearance and not because he found her attractive.But Ash clearly did find Misty attractive during Ghost Of The Maiden's Peak, as distinguished by the bubbly backgrounds and the harpy sound cue. In contrast, the banned episode did nothing to indicate that Ash was physically attracted to Misty in the way that was similar to the Maiden's Peak episode. He didn't gape at Misty, awestruck by her appearance. He just stood there, blankly looking at her, admittedly confused that she actually looked like a girl.
But the writers never did anything definite with the couple is my opinion.It's certainly more definite than AdvanceShipping where most of the hints from both sides have been sketchy at best, that's for sure. Considering how main character romances aren't top priority when it comes to the things to write in the screenplays, us having a character that has had his/her romantic intentions made the clearest out of all the main and secondary characters of the show (Aside from Drew) seems pretty damn definite to me in a show like Pokemon.
Besides finding someone pretty does not equal love. Ash found Giselle much prettier than he ever did Misty.Considering how one-sided Misty's affection is, having Ash, a character who rarely gives a crap about romance, showing an attraction, to Misty of all people, show that he's at least capable of liking her. Beyond Giselle, Ash hasn't displayed evidence of having any attraction, much less physical attraction, to any other girl other than Misty. Couple that with his moments of jealousy toward Firorello Capucino and Danny and his having similar reactions to Misty when being accused of liking her make it quite apparent that Ash did indeed like his red haired friend at least during Kanto and the Orange Islands.
But I also think that it was one-sidedI'll give you Johto and beyond in claiming that the feelings are one-sided. But in Kanto and the Orange Islands the feelings weren't mutual? You're going to have to fight to make that proclamation.
and that the writers have no real intention of doing anything with it from this point on. What they were interested in conveying to the audience in the beginning has changed.Except that Misty has been shown to still have feelings for Ash post-Johto. I don't think that's a very telling indicator that the creators have completely abandoned PokeShipping.
The Anti-PokeshipperWow. That. That kinda scares me a bit to see someone who not only disagrees with me when it comes to PokeShipping but someone who fervently hates PokeShipping. I would know quite a few AdvanceShippers would be upset if I put in my sig or custom title "The Anti-AdvanceShipper." Lucky for you guys that I can't fit that inside of the custom title character limit. :p Plus, I'm not against the concept of AdvanceShipping. I just happen to disagree with people claiming that it's going to be canon in the future.

I just hope your personal feelings regarding how "detestable" PokeShipping is won't rear its ugly head anytime soon. But, jeez, you really hate our ship that much? :\

STJ
31st January 2006, 10:47 AM
Wow. That. That kinda scares me a bit to see someone who not only disagrees with me when it comes to PokeShipping but someone who fervently hates PokeShipping. I would know quite a few AdvanceShippers would be upset if I put in my sig or custom title "The Anti-AdvanceShipper." Lucky for you guys that I can't fit that inside of the custom title character limit. :p Plus, I'm not against the concept of AdvanceShipping. I just happen to disagree with people claiming that it's going to be canon in the future.

Personally, so long as the person remains intelligent and respectful orf other's feelings, then it woudn't bother me if someone put 'Anti-Gymshipper' in their sig or whatever.

It's not as though it's a religion, and it's not as though she was goiing around protesting that Pokeshipping was rediculus or stupid. It's not as though she was going around belittling Pokeshippers and mocking their intepretation of hints and insinuating that they were idiots for believing in Pokeshipping and that it could ever happen.


I just hope your personal feelings regarding how "detestable" PokeShipping is won't rear its ugly head anytime soon. But, jeez, you really hate our ship that much? :\
Does it disturb you that much? Is it really that difficult to live with the fact that there happen to be shippers who despise Pokeshipping? Really?

Alfonso
31st January 2006, 12:17 PM
Why are we arguing this? If you're trying to get at the fact that PokeShipping wasn't canon during Kanto... Enjoy the uphill battle.

Oh, I see you've jumped on Jo-Jo's definition on what 'canon' is. Funny how it's only Pokeshippers that do that, just so you guys can say Pokeshipping was 'canon'. (In your definition.)

A lot of people consider canon to be something a little stronger than sparkly backgrounds and the rather pathetic 'Misty hits Ash with mallet' moments that you guys seem to think it is.

Jo-Jo
31st January 2006, 4:24 PM
*sigh*

Yes, Ginevra, R/Hr IS canon (http://angua9.livejournal.com/132488.html).

ENTIRE ESSAY REPOSTED BY ME AND TWEAKED TO APPLY TO POKEMON. DO NOT GIVE ME CREDIT, THE FOLLOWING IS NOT MINE:


Many things puzzle me in life. This is one of them.

Why is it that so many people in this fandom -- intelligent, literate people -- continually say things like "no matter what you may wish or predict, Pokeshipping isn't canon until it happens?" There seems to be a very widespread tacit assumption that a romantic relationship doesn't exist in a literary work until it is consummated. Openly acknowledged by both parties. 'I love you's and snogs exchanged.

I can hardly say how vehemently I disagree. Literary relationships are plot lines. They start existing when the plot line starts, not when it finishes. In the typical love story, "getting together" is the end of the plot line. But the plot line exists all along. To think otherwise is absurd.

Say you are watching Pirates of the Caribbean (a procedure I enthusiastically endorse) for the first time, and the power goes out before the final reel. Is Will/Elizabeth any less canon at any point in the movie than it is in the end? I say no. Any culturally-literate viewer will have been aware since very early in the movie that they are watching a Will/Elizabeth romance. W/E is canon when Elizabeth strokes Will's forehead and says "I'll take care of you." It is canon when she says "Good day, Mr. Turner" and he stares after her and whispers "Good day... Elizabeth." It is canon when Elizabeth flirts with Jack and when she agrees to marry Norrington and when Will suggests that she go back to her fiancé. Thoughout the movie, W/E is canon.

This widespread perception that a subplot can't be said to exist until it is resolved and proved beyond a shadow of doubt and no one can possibly argue against it is just bumfuzzling to me. How many frames do you have to be into 48 Hours before it becomes a buddy picture? How many pages do you have to read of Gone with the Wind before it turns into a novel about the Scarlett/Rhett romance? Did you have to wait until the prophecy was revealed at the end of Book 5 to proclaim that the Harry Potter series is a Good vs. Evil plot pitting Harry against Voldemort?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. It's all very well trying to be open-minded and even-handed and stuff, but... let's get serious. Audiences are not blank slates. We are perfectly capable of recognizing what kind of story we are watching.

The Pokemon writers were, during the first five seasons of the show, well along in writing a romantic subplot pairing Ash with his best girl friend, Misty. This has been recognized and openly discussed by several people involved in adapting the series into English. In the DVD commentary for the third(?) movie, the producer, Norman Grossfeld, discusses the existence (current, not future) of an Ash/Misty relationship subplot matter-of-factly and with no hint of doubt or unease. It is simply apparent.

Now, this doesn't guarantee that Ash and Misty will "get together" or live happily ever after or have dozens of babies with messy red hair. This doesn't guarantee that neither one of them will be involved in a romantic subplot with someone else. Not all romantic plots end happily; the Rhett/Scarlett one certainly didn't. Not all romantic plots are lasting. But it is a FACT that Ash and Misty were being written in a romantic subplot in the Pokemon anime.

I understand that not everyone who watches the series agrees with the above statement, but that doesn't make it any less true. The dubbers recognize the existence of the Ash/Misty romantic subplot -- failure to do so would be an astonishing lapse on the part of people who translate stories for a living. Ash/Misty is canon.

And what of those who feel that it isn't? Well, that's not a problem, is it? I mean, not everyone has to be aware of every single thing that exists in the universe. You can happily enjoy watching Pokemon without catching every subplot and theme. Unless you are someone like Norman Grossfeld, there is no particular reason for you to need to recognize that there was an Ash/Misty romance subplot in operation. However, if you do happen to have missed it, I am not going to be putting a lot of reliance on you as a predictor or analyst of how romances in this show will ultimately play out.

[/END OF ESSAY STEALAGE]

------

It's not just Pokeshippers who use that definition of canon, incidentally. Contestshippers do too. And if they don't, they bloody should, since they have more reason than any other ship at the moment to do so.

Swifty
31st January 2006, 5:23 PM
Personally, so long as the person remains intelligent and respectful orf other's feelings, then it woudn't bother me if someone put 'Anti-Gymshipper' in their sig or whatever.YES! Let's encourage more people putting "Anti-Whatever" in their custom titles! Let's create MORE gnashing of teeth and create LESS civility in the Shipper's Community! LET'S!
It's not as though it's a religion, and it's not as though she was goiing around protesting that Pokeshipping was rediculus or stupid. It's not as though she was going around belittling Pokeshippers and mocking their intepretation of hints and insinuating that they were idiots for believing in Pokeshipping and that it could ever happen.Oh? That's what I fear. It's not so much the idea that people hate my ship, but the fact that people could be close to sacrificing any semblance of civility we have in the forum is what really disturbs me.
Does it disturb you that much? Is it really that difficult to live with the fact that there happen to be shippers who despise Pokeshipping? Really?You seem to relish the idea, 'cause, LOL, pokeshipping is an anathema. But to answer your question, no. It's just that in debating and in communicating to my opponents, I at least would like to have some sort of indication that we're being somewhat like professionals and educated beings in debating our causes, not doing things that would ruin the civility of the debate by doing things such as putting "The Anti-AdvanceShipper" in our custom titles.
Oh, I see you've jumped on Jo-Jo's definition on what 'canon' is. Funny how it's only Pokeshippers that do that, just so you guys can say Pokeshipping was 'canon'. (In your definition.)Funny, cause I had that definition of canon long before I even joined this forum, Bulbagarden, or even met Jo-Jo. Star Wars debates, yo. Freespace 2 debates, yo. DC Animated Universe debates, yo.

Alfonso
31st January 2006, 5:51 PM
Yo. My coolness and ability to 'get down' with 'da kidz' pales in comparison to yours.

Word.

Jo-Jo, everytime I bring up the subject of your definition of canon, you go and post up some sort of long explanation as to what it is, and why Pokeshipping is canon in your definition. No offense, because you know I respect you, but I get it. :P

Swifty
31st January 2006, 5:54 PM
Yo. My coolness and ability to 'get down' with 'da kidz' pales in comparison to yours.

Word.Damn straight. It says "Los Angeles" in the location tag for a reason. ;)

Jo-Jo
31st January 2006, 7:02 PM
Jo-Jo, everytime I bring up the subject of your definition of canon, you go and post up some sort of long explanation as to what it is, and why Pokeshipping is canon in your definition. No offense, because you know I respect you, but I get it. :P
I know. :p But it's now gotten to the point where every time I post the explanation, nobody refutes it, but then a couple months down the line everyone goes and says Pokeshipping's not canon - again - anyway, and then I start wondering if it's just that they aren't paying attention to me, and the only way I know how to get attention is to post another long-winded essay. :p (Or in this case, someone else's long-winded essay.)

STJ
31st January 2006, 9:23 PM
YES! Let's encourage more people putting "Anti-Whatever" in their custom titles! Let's create MORE gnashing of teeth and create LESS civility in the Shipper's Community! LET'S!

It's not as though I'm encouraging people to put anti-whatever titles..I'm just saying that she's perfectly entitled to express her opinion as is everybody else provided they be considerate of other people's feelings.

People have put such titles before, and it hasn't afffected the community in any large detrimental way I can remember.


Oh? That's what I fear. It's not so much the idea that people hate my ship, but the fact that people could be close to sacrificing any semblance of civility we have in the forum is what really disturbs me.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html


You seem to relish the idea, 'cause, LOL, pokeshipping is an anathema. But to answer your question, no. It's just that in debating and in communicating to my opponents, I at least would like to have some sort of indication that we're being somewhat like professionals and educated beings in debating our causes, not doing things that would ruin the civility of the debate by doing things such as putting "The Anti-AdvanceShipper" in our custom titles.

Did putting the title make the debating you had with her any less civil than normal? Did she appear any less professional or civil to you simply because she labelled herself an Anti-Pokeshipper?

You may not agree or like it, but the truth is that there are people who hate Pokeshipping, and I'm sure that they have perfectly valid reasons for doing so, as valid as Pokeshipper liking their ship.

Meh, I could go on and give my views on what is canon and what is not, but I think it best if I keep my opinions to myself on that one XD

Raevell
1st February 2006, 5:17 PM
It's not as though I'm encouraging people to put anti-whatever titles..I'm just saying that she's perfectly entitled to express her opinion as is everybody else provided they be considerate of other people's feelings.

People have put such titles before, and it hasn't afffected the community in any large detrimental way I can remember.

Did putting the title make the debating you had with her any less civil than normal? Did she appear any less professional or civil to you simply because she labelled herself an Anti-Pokeshipper?

You may not agree or like it, but the truth is that there are people who hate Pokeshipping, and I'm sure that they have perfectly valid reasons for doing so, as valid as Pokeshipper liking their ship.


Lol, I appreciate you defending me STJ. Thank you.

Swifty, I'm sorry you take offense to it, maybe the word 'anti' is stronger to you than it is to me.

I got granted the title a looong time ago, back on the old TRHQ board. A fellow 'anti' called me it in jest, saying I was the ultimate anti-pokeshipper. Now let me tell you, back then I was much less civil about pokeshipping than I am now. Now it just makes me go 'meh' before I was definitely worthy of the nickname.

I would not find it offensive if someone had an 'anti-advanceshipper' title. They're just stating that they don't like something, as long as they're not going around saying everyone should agree with them I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like I jump into the pokeshipper thread and start bashing people or trying to change their views.

I completely understand where pokeshippers are coming from. There are hints and in America it is so common to just throw the two main characters of the opposite gender together. I don't have anything against pokeshippers, but I do not like the ship and I don't support it and I do feel that many things are completely blown out of proportion or not taken into consideration when it comes to it.

Please, don't let me affect you negatively. I know this is the second time I've gotten on your bad side. I don't want any enemies. ^^;

Anyways, onward with the discussion.

Jo-Jo, interesting essay and you make some good points. I don't agree all of it, (as I'm sure you expected). For example with PotC, the love between the characters is much more obvious than with pokeshipping, in my opinion. There is some 'hints' and flirtation with Ash and Misty but not something that shouts out to me 'head over heels in love'. If the writers were trying to get that across I think they failed, especially with me.

Also I've watched the Hoso's and the episodes after Johto featuring Misty. I haven't heard about or seen any hints regarding Pokeshipping besides Nanako (Casey) teasing Misty about having feelings for someone and she starts blushing and gets mad when Psyduck gives her a look. In that scene people just assume it must have been Ash she was thinking of. Is there something I missed that are now being declared hints post-Johto?

PokeProphet
2nd February 2006, 11:59 AM
I would not find it offensive if someone had an 'anti-advanceshipper' title. They're just stating that they don't like something, as long as they're not going around saying everyone should agree with them I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like I jump into the pokeshipper thread and start bashing people or trying to change their views.
Well, don't get me wrong, you seem like a nice person and you're entitled to your opinion. But I for one just fail to see why anyone would want to label themself as anti-this or anti-that. I mean, what's the point? All you're going to achieve is getting the people who support the ideas you're against riled up. And those people have a right of opinion too.

Besides, arguments against conflicting ships are not always arguments in favor of your own ship. It says something, but not everything. Let's suppose, for example, that Orangeshipping becomes canon in a while. Will that automatically mean that Advanceshipping will happen? No. The chance increases, but not to a 100%.

Look, a lot of people here, including me, love Pokeshipping passionately. We write fics, we draw fanart, we make banners, all in all we put in a lot of effort. By stressing that you're an anti-Pokeshipper, people who like it a lot will just feel bad. Not that you have to like Pokeshipping, but try to put the emphasis on liking your own ship, not on disliking ours. And bare in mind that customary user titles are a lot easier to see and read then posts. I've read your post, and from it I can tell that you're not a bad person, or overly fanatic about opposing Pokeshipping. But what happens the next time when you wonder in a thread where Pokeshippers are posting too. They won't see the thorough explanation you gave here, with the part where you explain that you see where Pokeshippers are coming from. They will just see "Anti-Pokeshipper" and they'll respond to that part.


Also I've watched the Hoso's and the episodes after Johto featuring Misty. I haven't heard about or seen any hints regarding Pokeshipping besides Nanako (Casey) teasing Misty about having feelings for someone and she starts blushing and gets mad when Psyduck gives her a look. In that scene people just assume it must have been Ash she was thinking of. Is there something I missed that are now being declared hints post-Johto?
Well, as for the 'Date with Delcatty'-thing, I have an argumentation as to why it was about Ash and not about Tracey, but it's a bit philosophical and I've posted it before, so I don't think it will be appreciated here.

And even though Alfonso is going to kill me over this, there's a guy called Mamoru over here who knows a lot about Japanese language and culture, and he says that in the Japanese version there are a lot of cultural references to Ash and Misty being a couple. Couldn't tell you whether it's true though, since I myself don't know too much about it. But you can ask him about it, if you want to.

Mamoru
2nd February 2006, 2:13 PM
I wouldn't, and didn't, say "a lot". However, there are scenes which would imply things to a Japanese person that would seem perfectly innocent to many of us, and few people really seem to really take notice of them until you bash them over the head with it. ^^;

Shatoshi
3rd February 2006, 3:04 AM
Back to an old topic of Anit- pokeshipper...that is just a couple words they put nwxt to thier avaar I am changing mine to an inside joke with my friends Nicole Lilly and TJ.... give Ravel chance^^

Raevell
3rd February 2006, 4:04 PM
Well, don't get me wrong, you seem like a nice person and you're entitled to your opinion. But I for one just fail to see why anyone would want to label themself as anti-this or anti-that. I mean, what's the point? All you're going to achieve is getting the people who support the ideas you're against riled up. And those people have a right of opinion too.

Besides, arguments against conflicting ships are not always arguments in favor of your own ship. It says something, but not everything. Let's suppose, for example, that Orangeshipping becomes canon in a while. Will that automatically mean that Advanceshipping will happen? No. The chance increases, but not to a 100%.

Look, a lot of people here, including me, love Pokeshipping passionately. We write fics, we draw fanart, we make banners, all in all we put in a lot of effort. By stressing that you're an anti-Pokeshipper, people who like it a lot will just feel bad. Not that you have to like Pokeshipping, but try to put the emphasis on liking your own ship, not on disliking ours. And bare in mind that customary user titles are a lot easier to see and read then posts. I've read your post, and from it I can tell that you're not a bad person, or overly fanatic about opposing Pokeshipping. But what happens the next time when you wonder in a thread where Pokeshippers are posting too. They won't see the thorough explanation you gave here, with the part where you explain that you see where Pokeshippers are coming from. They will just see "Anti-Pokeshipper" and they'll respond to that part.

Obviously you are right about people making assumptions based on a title. I'm surprised that this conversation has lasted for more than one or two posts. While I do see where you're coming from and you make a valid point, I still just don't understand why anyone would be so offended or suddenly go off on me about it. By debating against pokeshipping I think it would be pretty clear I don't agree with it or like it necessarily.

What it comes down to, I feel, is that people are getting overly affected by my opinion. I don't like it, and this all got started because someone took offense to me not liking something. I don't care if someone doesn't like something I do like, so long as they are not coming to me and telling me I'm stupid or I'm wrong.

Honestly I meant 'anti' as a simple title to describe me being against something, that's all. I don't see how giving myself a title that states I oppose something is being offensive. I don't see where being an 'anti' is saying that anyone who isn't is wrong or an imbecile.

I think it comes down to people taking the word anti much stronger than I do.

But I probably will change my title eventually, not so much because of the ruckus it has caused here but because I'm starting to feel I'm not anti enough to give myself such a title.

Shatoshi, thanks for the support. :)



Well, as for the 'Date with Delcatty'-thing, I have an argumentation as to why it was about Ash and not about Tracey, but it's a bit philosophical and I've posted it before, so I don't think it will be appreciated here.


I've heard a reason before why people think it's Ash she's crushing on and I can see the point, but it was giving the writers quite bit of credit. Why not post it here? I would be interested in reading it. I was just curious if there were other hints and there was something I missed because someone was going on about there being quite a few of them. But I hadn't heard of what they were supposedly.

Shatoshi
3rd February 2006, 10:20 PM
No problem^^ (told you I made it an inside joke!!!)