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meowth-in-boots
18th February 2006, 7:10 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say is that Harley in the Japanese version might be gay but in the U.S version they don't tell you he is.

Torchic23
18th February 2006, 7:11 PM
Well as we all know, Harley hates May and is always trying to butter her and her friends up so he can trick her, yes I think Harley is a weird freak guy but they won't tell us that in the US

Brinstar
18th February 2006, 7:15 PM
Harley is a stereotypical flamboyant girly-man that is commonly seen in anime. I don't think he's specifically labeled as gay in either versions, nor does it really matter. Harley's weird...but he's purposely weird and he does add some flavor and comedy to the Pokemon anime.

ChaosMage
18th February 2006, 7:19 PM
If you'd prefer a generic Harley, please give me a good idea of how he would look and act... oh, yeah- BORINGLY!!!

YoshiAngemon
18th February 2006, 7:19 PM
He's nothing like Gary Oak! Now THERE'S a rival who we can love. He used to rub it in Ash's face, calling him a loser, and he didn't even bother to tell Ash what his Starter Pokémon was until we saw him unleash it in its final form - Blastoise! And he has his own squad of cheerleaders!

MondoTR
18th February 2006, 8:18 PM
Why do members here act wierd? What I'm trying to say is why do people put topics that are obviously related to the anime in this section? :p

*moves*

Moonlight.
18th February 2006, 8:23 PM
Do I detect a stereotype?

Heh, just saying. First you say Harley acts weird, then you ask if he's gay...

Well, we can't say he's gay unless it actually shows him atracted to guys.

He just...has a typical girly-guy personality I guess.

ChaosMage
18th February 2006, 8:28 PM
Yes, surf. You do detect a stereotype.

And no, seconds person also named surf, you certainly cannot call him gay until he shows that he's attracted to guys

And you, third consecutive member named surf, coincidentally having the same personal details and Corphish avatar asthe two previous members sharing your name, I also agree with this third rendering of the same post. Harley is a typical girly-guy.

See. I agree with all of you guys. Keep on truckin'!

CyberCubed
18th February 2006, 8:41 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say is that Harley in the Japanese version might be gay but in the U.S version they don't tell you he is.

Um, the writers don't directly tell us Harley's preferences in either version.

They have alluded us to the fact that he prefers boys being as stereotypical as he is, but he never directly says anything about it in either the Japanese version or the dub.

hIrAm
18th February 2006, 8:45 PM
I agree, Harley is a freak, kinda. Although, he's got good taste in Pokémon, so I won't complain.

ChaosMage
18th February 2006, 8:52 PM
Is homosexuality as much a taboo in Japan as it is here? There isn't a single directly homosexual character on any USA children's show- is Japan the same?

CyberCubed
18th February 2006, 9:04 PM
Is homosexuality as much a taboo in Japan as it is here? There isn't a single directly homosexual character on any USA children's show- is Japan the same?

Judging by the insane about of gay and lesbian characters in anime, I don't think so.

Literally every shoujo anime in Japan has at least one gay or lesbian character.

Since May's story arc is pretty shoujo-ish, the writers decided to throw in as many cliche's as possible. Pretty boy metrosexual, (Drew), Comic relief gay guy who hates protagonist (Harley), Rich bisexual man with blonde hair (Robert), token fangirl of pretty boy metrosexual (Wakana), bisexual girl who crushes on main girl (Kelly), timid boy (Timmy), mother and daughter (Savannah and Sandra).

etc.

All of May's contest rivals seem like they jumped out of a shoujo anime.

ChaosMage
18th February 2006, 9:12 PM
token fangirl of pretty boy metrosexual (Wakana)

And there I was thinking his token fangirl was Roselia, that filthy little plant.

PDL
18th February 2006, 9:20 PM
And there I was thinking his token fangirl was Roselia, that filthy little plant.

we haven't seen Roselia do anything aside from just preforming petal dance and magical leaf...

what about all those MILFs in "A Fan with a Plan"? don't they count?

CyberCubed
18th February 2006, 9:24 PM
Ah yeah, they're counted with Savannah since she was part of them.

Even worse that the MILF's are crushing over Drew, who is probably no older than Ash. So these married mothers blush and drool over a 14 year old boy?

I mean if there's no age of consent in the Pokemon world that's fine, but to see 25-30 year old mothers crush on a 14 year old kid is really something.

Swifty
18th February 2006, 9:33 PM
Since May's story arc is pretty shoujo-ish, the writers decided to throw in as many cliche's as possible. Pretty boy metrosexual, (Drew), Comic relief gay guy who hates protagonist (Harley), Rich bisexual man with blonde hair (Robert), token fangirl of pretty boy metrosexual (Wakana), bisexual girl who crushes on main girl (Kelly), timid boy (Timmy), mother and daughter (Savannah and Sandra).

etc.

All of May's contest rivals seem like they jumped out of a shoujo anime.A part of the plotline owes a lot to the nature of Pokemon Coordinating. I've been watching a lot of Olympic primetime coverage on NBC. Coordinating is a lot like figure skating with concentration on showmanship and techniques.

Just look at Johnny Weir and Yevgeny Plushenko. Do they not scream Harley and Robert to you? Especially Plushenko (http://www.nbcolympics.com/figureskating/5112656/detail.html) as Robert. :D

Evanji Axu
18th February 2006, 10:06 PM
11 out of 10 fangirls conclude that Harley is gay.

Jo-Jo
18th February 2006, 10:30 PM
Anyone with a pair of eyeballs ought to conclude that Harley's gay.

Apparently in Hi Ho Silver Wind he calls May "girlfriend". My, my.

Juputoru
18th February 2006, 11:56 PM
Harley's about as straight as a rainbow. But that's okay, we wouldn't want him any other way. :)

Oh sure, it's never directly shown that he's gay, but these are the Pokemon writers we're talking about. They're as subtle as a sledgehammer when it comes to showing that a Pokemon's meant to be female/a person's a homosexual/someone's in love(...hmm, that could be a reason why I don't believe that main character shippings are canon. The evidence almost always involves the writers being subtle :p)/someone is evil/etc. As much as we all hate stereotypes, that's what they use to get the point across whenever possible. :<

Jesse GS the II
19th February 2006, 12:02 AM
Judging by the insane about of gay and lesbian characters in anime, I don't think so.

Literally every shoujo anime in Japan has at least one gay or lesbian character.

Since May's story arc is pretty shoujo-ish, the writers decided to throw in as many cliche's as possible. Pretty boy metrosexual, (Drew), Comic relief gay guy who hates protagonist (Harley), Rich bisexual man with blonde hair (Robert), token fangirl of pretty boy metrosexual (Wakana), bisexual girl who crushes on main girl (Kelly), timid boy (Timmy), mother and daughter (Savannah and Sandra).

etc.

All of May's contest rivals seem like they jumped out of a shoujo anime.

Oddly enough, I never noticed that before (well, it's not that odd, given that I don't particularly watch a lot of shoujo anime, but still, I tend to keep abreast of all the outside references on the show).

Satoshi
19th February 2006, 2:02 AM
Is homosexuality as much a taboo in Japan as it is here? There isn't a single directly homosexual character on any USA children's show- is Japan the same?
There's a huge history of anime (even anime aimed at children) that implies homosexuality.

Check Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura and see if you get my drift. :]

Magus
19th February 2006, 3:02 AM
Act? Harley doesn't act weird. He just is weird. :D

ハルカ and ゴンベ
19th February 2006, 5:10 AM
Harley's about as straight as a rainbow. But that's okay, we wouldn't want him any other way. :)

Oh sure, it's never directly shown that he's gay, but these are the Pokemon writers we're talking about. They're as subtle as a sledgehammer when it comes to showing that a Pokemon's meant to be female/a person's a homosexual/someone's in love(...hmm, that could be a reason why I don't believe that main character shippings are canon. The evidence almost always involves the writers being subtle :p)/someone is evil/etc. As much as we all hate stereotypes, that's what they use to get the point across whenever possible. :<

No kidding...>_> But, thats what we all love about Harley...and I swear when he met Shuu in today's episode...*cough*

Raevell
19th February 2006, 5:58 AM
Ah, another person questioning if Harley is gay? XD

We don't have any idea for sure as the term homosexual refers to someone who is attracted to people of the same sex. We haven't seen anything from Harley, his interest in romance is about the same as Ash. (though he's not as dense about it) He's just extremely feminine which in society typically points to said person being gay whether they are or not. Ah, the joy of stereotyping...

Being gay in Japan is not an issue like it is in America. It's my understanding that most feel if it's between two adults behind closed doors it's nobodies business.

I'm actually surprised though that Harley is as feminine in the American version as he is in the Japanese version. Still, do the writers sit down and discuss a characters sexuality? Do they bother to give them a label? I wonder.

CyberCubed, that is quite an interesting theory. You're completely right. I guess Pokemon is trying to appeal more to girls, hmm?

ハルカ and ゴンベ
19th February 2006, 6:13 AM
I'm actually surprised though that Harley is as feminine in the American version as he is in the Japanese version. Still, do the writers sit down and discuss a characters sexuality? Do they bother to give them a label? I wonder.


I was wondering this same thing too..Why did they do that? of all the dubbing companys..I though 4kids would edit that out.

Blackjack Gabbiani
19th February 2006, 6:37 AM
Homosexuality seems to be the one thing they don't have a problem with. And they'd be hypocrates if they did, given that one of their top VAs is a transsexual activist.

halloweenghost
19th February 2006, 6:55 AM
Homosexuality seems to be the one thing they don't have a problem with. And they'd be hypocrates if they did, given that one of their top VAs is a transsexual activist.

Thats probably why...or they do not want to offend any other homosexuals out there and just left Harley the same. He could be a metrosexual for all we know..

sin
19th February 2006, 3:30 PM
But the do show him attracted to a man. May's dad.

Dogasu
19th February 2006, 3:31 PM
You can find just as many homophobes in Japan as you do in the U.S. The difference is that the Japanese media isn't as uptight about showing homosexuals in children's shows as the American media is.

But times are changing, and we're starting to see more homosexuals in the media than we ever have before.


But the do show him attracted to a man. May's dad.

Idolizing someone isn't the same thing as being sexually attracted to him.

Judai Yuki
19th February 2006, 3:33 PM
When do they show him attracted to May's dad?

ghost master
19th February 2006, 3:38 PM
When do they show him attracted to May's dad? They never do. He just is a fan of his not attracted to him.

ChaosMage
19th February 2006, 7:33 PM
Imagine in the Kanto Grand Festival there's an episode called "Harley's Confession! Homosexual?" and 4Kids have to kiddify it...

Jesse GS the II
19th February 2006, 8:24 PM
Imagine in the Kanto Grand Festival there's an episode called "Harley's Confession! Homosexual?" and 4Kids have to kiddify it...

Well, I've always said that Shogakukan should make one episode that's just a big "try and translate this, you jerks!" to 4Kids. That'd be one interesting route to take, I'm sure.

MarcmenX
20th February 2006, 7:10 PM
He's flamming, he's fabulous, he's f*cking drop dead sexy, so leave him be! ;.;

Chris
20th February 2006, 11:15 PM
Anyone with a pair of eyeballs ought to conclude that Harley's gay.

Apparently in Hi Ho Silver Wind he calls May "girlfriend". My, my.
You FAIL HARD for quoting the DUB. --; These are the same people that turned Bashou into a woman. Who the hell calls anyone "girlfriend" anymore when using it as a generic term, anyways?

Folks, Harley is not gay. You idiots base everything off of stereotypes. Harley's simply a girlish-looking man who acts effeminate. Doesn't mean he's gay. e_e


He's nothing like Gary Oak! Now THERE'S a rival who we can love. He used to rub it in Ash's face, calling him a loser, and he didn't even bother to tell Ash what his Starter Pokémon was until we saw him unleash it in its final form - Blastoise! And he has his own squad of cheerleaders!
Shigeru did HARDLY anything rival-like. We hardly ever saw him, and when he did, he just bragged about being better. Now Masamune was a BETTER rival. We actually saw him and Satoshi compete in nearly everything. They refused to let one or the other outdo themselves.

Obviously you forgot he also ditched his cheerleaders in the begining of Jouto.


If you'd prefer a generic Harley, please give me a good idea of how he would look and act... oh, yeah- BORINGLY!!!
His name is Shuu. He acts exactly like Shigeru, only he has an issue with looking good as well as making his Pokémon look good. This is the definition of a boring, cliché rival.

As pointed out, at least Harley spiced it up abit to make it different. To the point where he carries a book with pictures of everyone he wants revenge on.

Then again, I'm talking to the same crowd of people who think girls and guys who are close friends automatically are in "love" with eachother, or that Satoshi "gives away" his Pokémon, and also thinks any guy who doesn't act masculine is automatically gay. I guess my argument's going to go ignored or frowned upon by said idiots. :(

Water Pokemon Master
20th February 2006, 11:26 PM
I nominate Edward Elric for most intelligent person on this forum.

Gravy
20th February 2006, 11:27 PM
Folks, Harley is not gay. You idiots base everything off of stereotypes. Harley's simply a girlish-looking man who acts effeminate. Doesn't mean he's gay. e_e
Of course people are basing everything on stereotypes. This series is known for it's blatant stereotyping of characters to get its point across and has thrived on that for the past 10 years. Now, I've never been one to pair up characters and jump to conclusions on their sexuality based upon a few minor actions in various scenes, but its like the scriptwriters are going out of their way to say "Hey look! Stereotypical flaming homosexual on the port bow!" in this particular instance.

Heracross
20th February 2006, 11:31 PM
I've gotta disagree about Harley, Ed. D: In cartoons like Pocket Monsters there isn't much else to go by. They have to have to rely on stereotypes to define characters in a way everyone will understand.

Edit: damn you Gravy. ;;

Haruka's Swimsuit
20th February 2006, 11:33 PM
Judging by the insane about of gay and lesbian characters in anime, I don't think so.

Literally every shoujo anime in Japan has at least one gay or lesbian character.

Since May's story arc is pretty shoujo-ish, the writers decided to throw in as many cliche's as possible. Pretty boy metrosexual, (Drew),

Actually, Shuu seems more like the quiet, standoff-ish rival type usually seen in sentai groupings.



Folks, Harley is not gay. You idiots base everything off of stereotypes. Harley's simply a girlish-looking man who acts effeminate. Doesn't mean he's gay. e_e

Good point. I forget, is okama a stereotype for characters that are gay or just for effeminate mannerisms?

CyberCubed
20th February 2006, 11:47 PM
Ah, Ed...I really don't know what to say.

Maybe I'll just wait till Jo-Jo gets here, or taitofan.

Blackjack Gabbiani
20th February 2006, 11:51 PM
You FAIL HARD for quoting the DUB. --; These are the same people that turned Bashou into a woman. Who the hell calls anyone "girlfriend" anymore when using it as a generic term, anyways?

Folks, Harley is not gay. You idiots base everything off of stereotypes. Harley's simply a girlish-looking man who acts effeminate. Doesn't mean he's gay. e_e


Oh yeah, because the dub is the only place where he's flamingly flamboyant.

Go to the Harley fan club and look at the posts before the dub came out.

STJ
20th February 2006, 11:53 PM
Ah, Ed...I really don't know what to say.

Maybe I'll just wait till Jo-Jo gets here, or taitofan.

LOL... Somehow I don't think Jo-Jo or Taitofan will be able to convince Edward Elric otherswise, CuberCubed.. He seems to be the type of person who sticks by his convictions no matter what other people think..

As for me.. well.. it doesn't bother me either which way if Harley is gay or not... I don't happen to think we'll ever get him all fangirly over another guy.. but then again...

As for the dub, well, for some reason his voice and demenour me of Uncle Arthur from Bewitched....

But people are always going to have different opinions, so what can you do?

Chris
20th February 2006, 11:58 PM
Good point. I forget, is okama a stereotype for characters that are gay or just for effeminate mannerisms?
Effeminate. Another person who follows the okama type that a lot of people also swear he's gay (thanks to the dub) would be Freeza of Dragon Ball Z. He and Harley tend to have effeminate mannerisms while somewhat being polite at first..until they show off their true colors and just drop the polite mannerism.


Of course people are basing everything on stereotypes. This series is known for it's blatant stereotyping of characters to get its point across and has thrived on that for the past 10 years. Now, I've never been one to pair up characters and jump to conclusions on their sexuality based upon a few minor actions in various scenes, but its like the scriptwriters are going out of their way to say "Hey look! Stereotypical flaming homosexual on the port bow!" in this particular instance.
The only stereotypes they've done a majority of the time was the helpless damsel in distress or tough girl. Both being the generic girl of the week that plagued Jouto. :s We haven't seen any pervish old men. Nor have we seen any black folk in the series, at all (Rougela NOT included), so no black-face people. Takeshi's close to the young male stereotype, only he isn't a perv but rather just loves the ladies and wishes to make one his girlfriend.

With Harley, it's not so much the stereotype of being gay, but rather giving him the effeminate attitude since we've not really had any male in the series do it before. And believe it or not, not all effeminate men are gay. Harley has shown nothing to conclude that he's gay. We don't see him flirting with men. He has not said anything about his sexual preferences. Going by stereotypes = null argument since they're nothing but stereotypes that have no evidence to prove true.


Oh yeah, because the dub is the only place where he's flamingly flamboyant.

Go to the Harley fan club and look at the posts before the dub came out.
The Japanese version just has him being effeminate. The dub just flat out makes him camp, like they've done with poor James over the years. :|

And once again, manner of speech or your actions do NOT tell others what your sexual preferences are. e_e Otherwise one would conclude that tomboy girls or girls that act boyish are automatically lesbians.

Blackjack Gabbiani
21st February 2006, 12:05 AM
He's pretty camp in Japanese.

And we've seen pervish old men *and* black people. Remember the old guy from Aopulco? Ryu or whatever? And one of the three jerks who was beating up Lapras was black, in addition to a Rocket Grunt from the first movie.

Alfonso
21st February 2006, 1:01 AM
Not to mention Jump, a Hoenn League opponent. He was black.

And had stereotypical big lips, as all black anime characters seem to have.

ハルカ and ゴンベ
21st February 2006, 1:12 AM
Folks, Harley is not gay. You idiots base everything off of stereotypes. Harley's simply a girlish-looking man who acts effeminate. Doesn't mean he's gay. e_e



So Ed, you're pretty much saying That if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...then it must be a Chicken? -_-; and i'd also like to point out you're saying "Harley is not gay" yet we have seen no evidence that He isn't.

taitofan
21st February 2006, 1:20 AM
Oh, my poor little head. I'd bust out the "atashi" argument again, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. Seriously... This is Pocket Monsters people. Gravy put it very nicely indeed.

Oh, and in Japan your speech can indeed say a lot about you. But that's going back to the atashi speech. And it seems that a certain someone is bound and determined to not care. Oh well. Think whatever you like, but for the love of all that's good and holy, don't call us idiots for believing what we like. Especially when the original is more on our side this time. What happened to "live and let live"?

That said... I'm glad Harley acts/talks the way he does. In my own personal opinion, he's the most interesting character to come about in a long time.

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 1:38 AM
So Ed, you're pretty much saying That if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...then it must be a Chicken? -_-; and i'd also like to point out you're saying "Harley is not gay" yet we have seen no evidence that He isn't.
Actually it'd be more like a goose. Metrosexuals (and the "sexual" suffix is really misleading) are straight as an arrow but enjoy things not considered to be a part of the stereotypical male's likes and dislikes. Like Ed said the ONE thing that would prove Harley is a homosexual is if he hit on men. He doesn't hit on men. Just because he acts like a girl doesn't make him gay. Him and Brock in bed together would.

ハルカ and ゴンベ
21st February 2006, 1:41 AM
. Just because he acts like a girl doesn't make him gay. Him and Brock in bed together would.

ROFL!!! I think Harley could do better.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that Harley and I act almost identical...so...^_^;

articuno_trumps_all
21st February 2006, 1:51 AM
So Ed, you're pretty much saying That if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...then it must be a Chicken? -_-; and i'd also like to point out you're saying "Harley is not gay" yet we have seen no evidence that He isn't.
Owned!

Harley act’s “weird” because he’s very flamboyant. That is very separate from his homosexuality. And that's all I have to say about that. e_e

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 1:52 AM
Him acting like you doesn't prove jack. Because you get on the internet and post in a forum, you're a student at CMU because you're doing the same thing I'm doing? Believe or not, people's actions are not dictated by their sex habits.

articuno_trumps_all
21st February 2006, 2:05 AM
Him acting like you doesn't prove jack. Because you get on the internet and post in a forum, you're a student at CMU because you're doing the same thing I'm doing? Believe or not, people's actions are not dictated by their sex habits.
Maybe you should reread my post with the use of a dictionary. XD I thought most people would understand what the word separate meant, but I guess that was overestimating you.

Atashi proves it all. End of story.

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 2:09 AM
1). I write that post before you posted.
2). I think you've missed the point. He acts the way he does because that's what he does. It has nothing to do with his sexuality. Actually, I'm surprised you're over analyzing a cartoon character.

articuno_trumps_all
21st February 2006, 2:16 AM
1). I write that post before you posted..
Fair enough.


2). I think you've missed the point. He acts the way he does because that's what he does. It has nothing to do with his sexuality. Actually, I'm surprised you're over analyzing a cartoon character
Isn't that the exact same thing I said (except actually being true to his character)......


Harley act’s “weird” because he’s very flamboyant. That is very separate from his homosexuality

Torchic23
21st February 2006, 2:24 AM
EDIT: I'd also like to point out that Harley and I act almost identical...so...^_^;


Ok, that's a little odd ^^; [Don't worry, i'm not trying to bash ya, I'm just not a Harley fan]

Why is Harley odd:
Because that's the way the dub is, and that's what everybody else says ^^;

Is Harley gay:
It has never been said but some people do believe it. It may or may not be true, he could be a very girly guy, but that doesn't make him gay, like everyone else said -_-;

I think Harley is a little gay, but that's just my opinion, and it may not be true

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 2:24 AM
He acts femine =/= he fraks men. It could be he prefers being that way because that's what he does because that's his personality, sexuality not withstanding. Why do I always wear slacks and never jeans? Why do I study the weather instead of accounting?

Wait, I know. Harley is a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Geki
21st February 2006, 3:00 AM
Harley is most likely gay in Japan, but the dub would NEVER mention that. XD The dub does give him a pretty good gay voice though, I have to admit. He basically tries to confuse May by acting nice and sincere, like Caroline said about being sincere. He tries to hard in my opinion.

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 3:13 AM
If anything, he's worse in the dub :/

Chris
21st February 2006, 3:13 AM
So Ed, you're pretty much saying That if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...then it must be a Chicken? -_-;
Hello. We're talking about an animated human character. Not an animal. Stay focused, here. We can walk and act like animals, yet that doesn't make us animals. ;\

YOUR LOGIC IS FAULTY!

NEXT!


Atashi proves it all. End of story.
Again, let's refer back to the Harley and Freeza comparison. Both put up the images that they can be polite and mocking another person at the same time. They both have mannerisms that differ from what regular people are acostumed to. But once the crap hits the fan, they drop it and let their full rage drop their mannerisms.

You can't say Harley doesn't act differently when he's angry, especially when it comes to his heated battles with Haruka.

Oh and btw, I'm refering to the Japanese voices of both characters. Not the English one. ;\ So this applies to the words they say and use.

NEXT!


Harley is most likely gay in Japan, but the dub would NEVER mention that. XD
Again, 4Kids has made a good deal of jokes to make James come across as being pretty camp when he never did in the original. Don't underestimate 4Kids' abilities to slip a few things under the radars in ways of adult jokes.

Heracross
21st February 2006, 3:49 AM
Don't we all act differently when we're angry? >.>

ハルカ and ゴンベ
21st February 2006, 3:53 AM
Hello. We're talking about an animated human character. Not an animal. Stay focused, here. We can walk and act like animals, yet that doesn't make us animals. ;\

YOUR LOGIC IS FAULTY!

NEXT!



Ok...You have to know thats an expression (maybe not the exact expression but it's the gist of one) I'm saying that all evidence points to it that he is, except they didn't show behind the scenes where he makes out with Shuu. =D

I take it thats the only type of thing that will convince you.

Oh well..I guess we all have our opinion, we can't all agree on everything.

CyberCubed
21st February 2006, 4:06 AM
So apparently the writers having Harley do stuff like this doesn't suggest anything?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/coordinators1/Modamo%20Harley/6harley03.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/coordinators1/Modamo%20Harley/6harley08.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/coordinators1/Modamo%20Harley/6harley228.jpg

Uhuh. Credit to taitofan.

Do they honestly have to show him crushing on another guy to prove his sexual orientation? I mean, it can be argued that he already showed attraction for both Norman (when James was dressed as him), and Drew (flirty!)

It's like saying that a character can't be straight unless they show an obvious attraction in the opposite gender.

Jo-Jo
21st February 2006, 4:13 AM
You FAIL HARD for quoting the DUB. --;
:rolleyes: EW! Not the icky DUB!

For your information, I mentioned the "girlfriend" line because I found it amusing. It wasn't intended as an argument to back up the first part of my post, since I don't need an argument to back up the statement that Harley's gay. It's so MIND-BOGGLINGLY obvious that he is that anybody who can't figure it out for themselves from watching him - in either version, since it's equally clear in both - is clearly a lost cause, and wouldn't be convinced no matter what I said.


Folks, Harley is not gay. You idiots base everything off of stereotypes. Harley's simply a girlish-looking man who acts effeminate. Doesn't mean he's gay. e_e
'Believes Harley's gay' = idiot.

Whereas, 'insults several dozen people, under no provocation, over a cartoon character's sexuality' = not an idiot.

OK!


Shigeru did HARDLY anything rival-like. We hardly ever saw him, and when he did, he just bragged about being better.
Right, that's not rival-like in the slightest. Because rivals never employ trash-talk or claim that they're better than each other. That's simply unthinkable!


Now Masamune was a BETTER rival. We actually saw him and Satoshi compete in nearly everything. They refused to let one or the other outdo themselves.
Ah, so 'employs blanket statements to assert personal opinion as the only valid and true viewpoint' also = not an idiot. Gotcha!


His name is Shuu. He acts exactly like Shigeru, only he has an issue with looking good as well as making his Pokémon look good. This is the definition of a boring, cliché rival.
That's funny, I seem to recall you telling me a few weeks ago that character bashing was discouraged on SPPF. Let me guess - it's only not OK to bash characters that you like. If you dislike them, then what the hey, say whatever the hell you like about them!

For the record, Drew gets uncomfortable around crowds of gushing fans, is more solitary and aloof than Gary, has poorer people skills, has a better handle on his ego, withdraws and closes down when upset as opposed to getting into childish strops, is more manipulative, has a romantic streak, is MUCH more of a flirt, and is apparently obsessed with his own hair. He is also a love interest as well as a rival, which Gary was not. *waits for Palletshippers to arrive ;)*


As pointed out, at least Harley spiced it up abit to make it different. To the point where he carries a book with pictures of everyone he wants revenge on.
Wrong again, I'm afraid. Harley's scrapbook isn't a hit list. He keeps photos of co-ordinators, but there's no evidence that he wants revenge on them all. If that were the case, there would have been no need for him to mark out May's picture by drawing a skull and crossbones over it. He takes Drew's photo in the Grand Festival, and he doesn't seem to have a particular grudge against him (or at least, he didn't at the time he took the picture).


Then again, I'm talking to the same crowd of people who think girls and guys who are close friends automatically are in "love" with eachother, or that Satoshi "gives away" his Pokémon, and also thinks any guy who doesn't act masculine is automatically gay. I guess my argument's going to go ignored or frowned upon by said idiots. :(
Oh, diddums. Such a tragic figure you make, put upon this forum to suffer daily at the hands of brainless peons such as us. How we must annoy you, constantly going around posting our opinions about stuff with no consideration for the feelings of poor, long-suffering you. Tell you what - how about next time any of us has an emotional response to the show, we'll get in contact with you first and check that we're interpreting things the right way, before we go around spreading our uninformed piffle all over the messageboard?

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 4:36 AM
The latest Harley episode doesn't count because the animators had an extra squig of Jesus Juice. Even for Harley it was extra campy.

Heracross
21st February 2006, 4:45 AM
You can't just say an entire episode doesn't count simply because it's convenient for your argument.

Satoshi
21st February 2006, 5:46 AM
Just because he acts wierd and uh...feminine doesn't mean he's gay. He's will only be proven to be gay if he's shown being sexually attracted to a guy. Hence the meaning of the word.

gay
adj. gay·er, gay·est
Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

Of course Harley's guy. Because acting out of the ordinary for your gender certainly means you're hot for guys. :rolleyes: Its like saying someone's gay for wearing a pink shirt. STEREOTYPING (I wish it wasn't actually aimed at anyone...but.... ;P).

I'm not saying he's not gay, but it shows nowhere in the anime of him being homosexual.

It's like saying that a character can't be straight unless they show an obvious attraction in the opposite gender.
That's because the character isn't possibly being protrayed as being gay. Most writers for anime, if they want to protray him/her as gay/lesbian, make it apparent at least somewhere in the early parts of the story.

Heracross
21st February 2006, 6:01 AM
And how else would they make it apperent in a show with hardly any romantic subtexts?

taitofan
21st February 2006, 6:01 AM
Oh for the love of... Okay, busting out the atashi talk.


The "girl's" word for I is "atashi," and a homosexual speaking in an effeminate manner would use this word for himself.Sound familiar?

Jo-Jo
21st February 2006, 6:05 AM
Can anyone come up with a single fictional anime male who refers to himself with "atashi" and isn't gay? Bet there aren't any. And even if there are, I bet they're overwhelmingly outnumbered by the gay atashi-referers.

CyberCubed
21st February 2006, 6:09 AM
And besides that, the belly button shirt is highly convincing. I don't know of too many guys that like to show off their belly buttons in public. Brody shares the same fashion sense, but 4kids made him campy too.

Yamato-san
21st February 2006, 6:36 AM
Atashi proves it all. End of story.

I haven't seen too many male characters use "atashi", personally, but as Ed said earlier, girls that act like tomboys aren't instantly lesbians, and the same applies to girls that I've seen using masculine forms of first-person. Bleach's Kuukaku uses "ore", and she doesn't seem to come off as a lesbian. And .hack's Mia uses "boku", yet people would be more liable to pair her off with Elk than any other character. So I don't see why a male using "atashi" instantly signifies he's gay.

Jo-Jo
21st February 2006, 6:38 AM
I repeat: can anyone come up with a non-gay male character who uses "atashi" when referring to himself?

taitofan
21st February 2006, 6:42 AM
The basic word for I is "watashi" but not used all that much. Words that boys usually use are "boku" (a soft word, usually polite) or "ore" (a rougher word, which can be rude depending on the setting you use it in). A girl who is somewhat tomboyish might use the former, or if she's really tough, she might even use the latter; similarly, a young boy (like my son) might show how grown-up he is by using "ore."It makes no reference to lesbians, unlike with atashi. Double standard? Perhaps. Ask the people who made the language though.


I repeat: can anyone come up with a non-gay male character who uses "atashi" when referring to himself?I'm assuming that men disguised as women don't count. In that case, no.

Chris
21st February 2006, 7:32 AM
Right, that's not rival-like in the slightest. Because rivals never, ever employ trash-talk or claim that they're better than each other. That's simply unthinkable!
Let's look up rival.

"One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor."

Shigeru did NOTHING of the sort but brag. We only see him and Satoshi compete against one another twice. To try to surpass the other. As a rival, Shigeru made a pretty lousy one since the writers rarely showed him.


Ah, so 'employs blanket statements to assert personal opinion as the only valid and true viewpoint' also = not an idiot. Gotcha!
Obviously you never saw the episodes involving the two actually competing through nearly an entire episode to outdo eachother. Please read the definition of rival before you start making claims that my statements are not valid and based merely on opinion.


That's funny, I seem to recall you telling me a few weeks ago that character bashing was discouraged on SPPF. Let me guess - it's only not OK to bash characters that you like. If you dislike them, then what the hey, say whatever the hell you like about them!
You read too much into things. Bashing involves insulting with no justified reasoning and usually involves nonsensical explanations such as "lolz he sux cuz hes not cool!!" And if you learned how to read I said "This is the definition of a boring, cliché rival." This means the type of character is boring. Not the character themself. Although this itself is not bashing since I gave a legit reasoning behind it.

Seems all you're trying to do is make yourself look smart by trying to one-up my statements.


For the record, Drew gets uncomfortable around crowds of gushing fans, is more solitary and aloof than Gary, has poorer people skills, has a better handle on his ego, withdraws and closes down when upset as opposed to getting into childish strops, is more manipulative, has a romantic streak, is MUCH more of a flirt, and is apparently obsessed with his own hair. He is also a love interest as well as a rival, which Gary was not. *waits for Palletshippers to arrive ;)*
True, they do act differently in a few ways. Shigeru's the egotist and Shuu has a slight ego problem but plays the role of lone wolf. Either way, it's still cliché and not very interesting.


Oh, diddums. Such a tragic figure you make, put upon this forum to suffer daily at the hands of brainless peons such as us. How we must annoy you, constantly going around posting our opinions about stuff with no consideration for the feelings of poor, long-suffering you. Tell you what - how about next time any of us has an emotional response to the show, we'll get in contact with you first and check that we're interpreting things the right way, before we go around spreading our uninformed piffle all over the messageboard? Wouldn't that be swell!
How about going through EVERYTHING in this forum? Look at all the mindless dribble said here. Not all of it is bad. Some thought is put into a lot of things. But a majority of statements made in this forum are mind-boggling.

Such as the topic at hand. Apparently you people believe that when one moves and speaks feminine-like, they just HAVE to be gay. All because of stereotype info.


I repeat: can anyone come up with a non-gay male character who uses "atashi" when referring to himself?
Because we all know it's perfectly fine to ignore what Yamato-san said because girl speech with males =/= male speech with girls. Again, this is proof that you're all going by stereotype views.

Kuukaku from Bleach says "ore" despite being male. "Ore" is masculine, and something girls rarely say. To quote a Japanese guide:

"Ore is even more overtly masculine, and implies either that a man is speaking among intimates (at the least that there are no women present) or that he is aggressively macho."

In otherwords, she (Kuukaku) speaks in a butch-like quality. However, this doesn't mean she's into females just because she speaks like a guy.

Let us not forget that "atashi" is not just something women generally use, but it's slightly less formal than "watashi" but not bordering onto being rude like "ore."

The fact that you folks are writing off females using male speech while claiming males using female speech means they're gay shows a rather stereotypical and close-minded view. Sexism, anyone? ;\

Btw, no Japanese language guides I'm seeing mention ANYTHING about only girls and gay men using "atashi." They only mention them being something women use in a polite manner. Nothing more.

Blackjack Gabbiani
21st February 2006, 7:39 AM
EE, it's a double-edged sword. Prove he's straight.

mannyguy
21st February 2006, 8:16 AM
who cares if he's gay or not he adds something new to the anime which i think is kinda kool

and by the way....no to steriotype...but if someone acts as feminie as harley in real life then most likely they are gay..i mean harley's obviously meant to be blamoyant and even straight seeming gays have some femine to them if you really get to know them..long story short harley is probably gay..but who cares he's funny and he adds a weird but nice flavor to the show

Jo-Jo
21st February 2006, 8:54 AM
Let's look up rival.

"One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor."
'or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor'.

Gary and Ash had the same goal in the series: to be Pokemon Masters. They also had the same short-terms goals: to win the Indigo League, and later, the Silver Conference. That makes them rivals. Characters in the show talked about them being rivals. Ash thought of Gary as a rival. Guides written for the show refer to Gary as "Ash's rival".

In Kanto and some of Johto, Gary had no interest in defeating Ash because in his mind, his superiority was already apparent. Towards the end of Johto, he began to recognise Ash as a worthy rival. Ash had to work hard over a long period of time to earn Gary's respect (this is one big way in which May and Drew differ). This doesn't make Gary an inferior rival to Masamune; it means that his relationship to Ash was different to Masamune's relationship to Ash. Nothing else.

I don't know what you're trying to prove. If you only consider a rival character acceptable once he meets a quota of scenes pitting him in competition with Ash, that's your opinion and not one any of the rest of us should have to stick to. I liked that Gary was completely unlikable to begin with and then got his ego crushed and then matured into a decent person. It was an interesting character arc. It is totally untrue to say that he did nothing but brag. I think it hilarious that you accuse us of stereotyping, and then go and flatten characters you don't like into a single stock characteristic that tells us nothing about what they were actually like. Your insistance that Gary was a lousy rival because he and Ash only battled twice only demonstrates that you've missed the point.

Now, what on EARTH does this discussion have to do with the topic?


Please read the definition of rival before you start making claims that my statements are not valid and based merely on opinion.
Your statements are not facts and therefore shouldn't be stated as statements in the first place. Please read the definition of fact and opinion before you start ordering me to look words up.


You read too much into things.
Yes, silly me. Clearly I was reading too much into things when I presumed "SPPF does not encourage character bashing" meant that "SPPF does not encourage character bashing".


Bashing involves insulting with no justified reasoning and usually involves nonsensical explanations such as "lolz he sux cuz hes not cool!!"
Right, because stating "His name is Shuu. He acts exactly like Shigeru, only he has an issue with looking good as well as making his Pokémon look good. This is the definition of a boring, cliché rival" is the epitome of justified reasoning. Hence the many explanations and canon citations you provided to show why Drew acts "exactly" like Gary, where in the show he is demonstrated as being vain, and how this makes him "the definition of a boring, cliché rival".


And if you learned how to read I said "This is the definition of a boring, cliché rival." This means the type of character is boring. Not the character themself.
*looks up dictionary definition of boring, cliché rival* *is puzzled to see that Drew's picture is not featured*

It would seem, then, that I actually didn't read enough into things earlier. I shouldn't have taken your remark about Drew being boring and cliché at face-value, but rather ought to have examined the subtext and realised that you were only talking about the type of character he is. Which, errrrrr, is totally different from calling the character himself boring and cliché. I'm sure. Somehow.


Although this itself is not bashing since I gave a legit reasoning behind it.
Which was...?


Seems all you're trying to do is make yourself look smart by trying to one-up my statements.
What can I say, I have this irrational desire to try to show up people who think they have the right to lay down the law and tell everyone else how to interpret a TV show. Especially when they seem determined to ignore crystal-clear authorial intent.


True, they do act differently in a few ways. Shigeru's the egotist and Shuu has a slight ego problem but plays the role of lone wolf. Either way, it's still cliché and not very interesting.
You're doing it again. Three little letters: IMO. They'll serve you in good stead.


How about going through EVERYTHING in this forum? Look at all the mindless dribble said here. Not all of it is bad. Some thought is put into a lot of things. But a majority of statements made in this forum are mind-boggling.
Yeah, I find statements like "Anyone who thinks Harley's gay is an idiot" fairly mind-boggling.


Such as the topic at hand. Apparently you people believe that when one moves and speaks feminine-like, they just HAVE to be gay. All because of stereotype info.
Uhh, yeah. You know what show we're talking about, right?


Because we all know it's perfectly fine to ignore what Yamato-san said because girl speech with males =/= male speech with girls. Again, this is proof that you're all going by stereotype views.
And I suppose it's also perfectly fine of you to ignore completely the facts taitofan posted about 'atashi', as well as her explanation on how the language works differently for men using female pronouns than for girls using male pronouns. As she already pointed out, it's not our fault that the double-standard exists. We didn't invent Japanese. It is a fact that tomboyish girls can use male pronouns without it necessarily reflecting on their sexualities, whereas 'atashi' is solely used by women and gay men. Find me an example of a non-gay male character in fiction who uses atashi, and then you might have an argument. Though you'll still be massively outnumbered by the army of flamboyant atashi-using gay male characters.


The fact that you folks are writing off females using male speech while claiming males using female speech means they're gay shows a rather stereotypical and close-minded view. Sexism, anyone? ;\
*SNORT* In case you didn't know, I'm a girl. And as I just said, I didn't invent Japanese. Start a campaign to introduce 'atashi' into the non-gay male population if it means that much to you, but don't cry sexism to any of us for reporting the facts.

The Big Al
21st February 2006, 12:35 PM
Frak it all. My head's spinning with all these first person pronouns. And are you all sure this works the way you think it does? Frankly, I'm in the dark about this. However, one thing I've learned about the world is there is no such thing as absolutes.

I'll bring a real life example. On Air America Mornings there's a man named Kent Jones who does the news. He sounds as campy as Harley but it's just an act, he has said on radio he is . Granted he speaks English so he used "I".

Jesse GS the II
21st February 2006, 5:12 PM
Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax."

Raevell
22nd February 2006, 4:13 AM
Woah! This thread just lit on fire! XD;;

I would say that Harley is gay simply because of the stereotypes. Since we are talking about a made up character, it would be silly to give him stereotypical "gay" actions if you were not attempting to portray him as such. Unless you made it a running joke about him acting that way but then confusing everyone by hitting on girls, or were trying to get a message across that stereotypes are wrong.

This has no baring in real life. I know there are feminine guys who are not gay as well as very masculine guys that are.

But it would appear to me that they are playing Harley to the extreme stereotype.

Personally, I think societies ideas are insanely stupid, always labeling and putting people into boxes. As CC put, although I know it was a bit in jest, it angers me how guys get picked on or are accused of being a certain way simply because of what they wear. Likewise, I get sick of the weird looks I get when they find out I'm an anime fangirl and a video game geek.

*end of rant*

Kabuto
22nd February 2006, 4:22 AM
Surely many feminine guys are not gay. But Harley is:

A. "Atashi"

B. Clothing (open belly button)

C. Hatred toward May - Most guys don't have fierce rivalries with the opposite sex (especially over cookies)

D. Feminine actions- Showing his arse, Using that girlish tone and action

Basically the writers are showing us that he is gay but sugarcoating it for the little kids. I can care less about Harley and his obsession.

Judai Yuki
22nd February 2006, 4:41 AM
Lol seizureman gets a A+ for exellence
*Takes out a camera and takes a picture of seizureman and puts it in a book and writes A+ over it*

ハルカ and ゴンベ
22nd February 2006, 4:56 AM
Yeah...Not only is he gay..he also has that weird stalker thing going with the pictures...Does anyone else find that creepy?

~*Myuu the Ryuu*~
22nd February 2006, 5:20 AM
harley is kinda creepy. in my upcoming fic he's the villain.

this is the most creepiest of all!

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b32/Miroku2113/ag121harleybutt.jpg

The Big Al
22nd February 2006, 11:50 AM
I thought Harley hated May with a pashion because she called his Cacturne scary?

Chris
22nd February 2006, 12:03 PM
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/Tsukento/objection.gif

Surely many feminine guys are not gay. But Harley is:

A. "Atashi"

Once again, no other guide I see mentions ANYTHING about women AND gay males saying this.


B. Clothing (open belly button)
And when girls wear clothing for guys, that = lesbian. 8D

Right.


C. Hatred toward May - Most guys don't have fierce rivalries with the opposite sex (especially over cookies)
She called Noctus scary-looking. Her speech quirks (ending things with "kamo") aggrivated him due to it not being proper speech. Then you have her BEATING him after he worked hard to humiliate her. Most guys don't have fierce rivalries with the opposite sex? Um, it's because you don't see it happen often. Usually it's because the same sex tend to be competitive with eachother. However, this has NOTHING to do with one's sexual preference. Where the hell'd that one come from?


D. Feminine actions- Showing his arse, Using that girlish tone and action
Girlish tone? No. Soft tone of voice is more accurate. And even that's just as inaccurate. Stereotype? Yes. But that doesn't always = homosexual. o_O


Basically the writers are showing us that he is gay but sugarcoating it for the little kids. I can care less about Harley and his obsession.
If they pretty much mention death from time to time (even having it occur three times) and have even shown BIG breasted characters in the most awkward moments (Kanna leaning over a railing or Uchikido-Hakase in a very tight yet revealing bikini), I'd say they're definately not sugar coating much since Japanese society is different and a tad more tollerant than the western side is.


Personally, I think societies ideas are insanely stupid, always labeling and putting people into boxes. As CC put, although I know it was a bit in jest, it angers me how guys get picked on or are accused of being a certain way simply because of what they wear. Likewise, I get sick of the weird looks I get when they find out I'm an anime fangirl and a video game geek.
A winner is you.

intergalactic platypus
24th February 2006, 4:29 AM
Harley reminds me of a transexual in a lot of ways. I know hes not a true drag queen, but he has extremely feminine mannerisms, uses some term in Japanese usually reserved for women, and looks like a chick. I know that doesn't make him a transexual, thats just what he makes me think of a lot of the time. Needless to say I personally think hes gay since this isn't a show known for subtlety. And Jo-Jo, you have always been kickass at debates but this particular one makes you my hero for this week *gives gold star sticker*

Jo-Jo
24th February 2006, 6:31 PM
Harley reminds me of a transexual in a lot of ways. I know hes not a true drag queen, but he has extremely feminine mannerisms, uses some term in Japanese usually reserved for women, and looks like a chick. I know that doesn't make him a transexual, thats just what he makes me think of a lot of the time. Needless to say I personally think hes gay since this isn't a show known for subtlety. And Jo-Jo, you have always been kickass at debates but this particular one makes you my hero for this week *gives gold star sticker*
^_^ YAY! *sticks sticker on forehead*

intergalactic platypus
24th February 2006, 7:58 PM
I can't WAIT till the Dodgemasters at pokemopolis get ahold of Harley. Since they rabidly support the James Is Gay theory, they'll go wild with a character as campy as Harley

Jo-Jo
24th February 2006, 10:40 PM
Hehehehehe. Poor James. Harley's stolen the crown of camp from right off his head.

Dogasu
25th February 2006, 3:09 AM
Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax."

Sad thing is...I'm probably the only one in this thread who got that reference...

ハルカ and ゴンベ
25th February 2006, 3:40 AM
Sad thing is...I'm probably the only one in this thread who got that reference...
Indeed you are. Sorry.

Blackjack Gabbiani
25th February 2006, 5:14 AM
Sad thing is...I'm probably the only one in this thread who got that reference...

You've got to be kidding me. That's one of my favorite shows.

Nny
25th February 2006, 2:19 PM
I think Harley is gay because everyone knows that a lot of people mistaken him for a her. But Nitendo or whatever don't want to say anything because parents always make a big deal of things like this. Saying that gay characters on t.v should be taken off. So it's possible he is gay but people don't want to say anything.

Blackjack Gabbiani
25th February 2006, 7:28 PM
Feminine doesn't equal gay though.

ハルカ and ゴンベ
25th February 2006, 9:05 PM
Have you noticed that every main character in a Contest (Shuu, Haruka, Harley, ect.) Are all either girls or feminine?

CyberCubed
25th February 2006, 11:04 PM
Yes we know that, as I said before.

All of May's Contest rivals are based on stereotypes from shoujo manga. It's what's made her Contest arc so enjoyable, the shoujo angle of Pokemon is something they couldn't do before May was introduced in the series.

Skittygirl
4th August 2006, 9:20 PM
I always considered that he was metrosexual.

CaptainBrain
4th August 2006, 9:41 PM
Harley's a male?!? J/K

He does act kind of feminine. He showed his butt, ew.

Enix
4th August 2006, 9:46 PM
I think he is ECENTRIC at most.

thunderblade12
4th August 2006, 11:38 PM
Um, the writers don't directly tell us Harley's preferences in either version.

They have alluded us to the fact that he prefers boys being as stereotypical as he is, but he never directly says anything about it in either the Japanese version or the dub.

even if the japanese writers do deside to say hes gay the us dubbing company will probably just change it the way they did with bon clay from one piece

Ash6K
5th August 2006, 12:14 AM
Why are we talking about this? It's obvious that Harley acts wierd so us viewers could see some humor in the contests. Anyway, Cyber is right. The contest arcs do have a lot of shoujo stereotypes. Harley is one of them.

HoennMaster
5th August 2006, 4:31 AM
And why are people starting to post in it again?