PDA

View Full Version : AG 168: Decisive Game! May VS Brock!!



Shadowcat
21st February 2006, 9:39 AM
All righty... A discussion thread by Sapphire again.... Yes... I haven't been here recently, as nothing seemed to be interesting till I saw the next three epi titles...

From the looks of it... Takeshi will fight against Haruka of course... lol... And since the epi airs in two weeks and two days time... We must as well have the thread to start talking about our random, crazy ideas we have on this epi with only its title up...

Now... Most people have already assumed this and discussed about this in the Title Thread, but I'm just going to mention this... Brock may just be competing just because the person he likes/has a crush on thinks he'll fair well in Contests and so on and stuff... According to one of the ideas I saw in the title thread...

jynx
21st February 2006, 11:07 AM
the title reminds me of that time they were fighting each other for Togepi...

MaskedManAbsolkid
21st February 2006, 11:24 AM
According to loads of different sites, Brock's Bonsly is up against May's Eevee, and he's competing not because a breeder said Bonsly was good, but because he has a mega crush on the breeder, Yuki. Maybe May wins and she congratulates may and ignores Brock.

CyberCubed
21st February 2006, 4:30 PM
I had an argument on Bulbagarden awhile ago about why May would win, and then I got attacked by all the rabid Misty/Brock/anti-May fans about how May sucks and that she'll lose because Brock has much more experience.

Man, I'd so love to have a great piece of canon evidence to prove them wrong.

In the end, I'm expecting Eevee to Shadow Ball that tree to a crisp. I already think it's plain as day that the writers will have May win, but I guess some people think that Brock will kick her off the show, steal her role, and start doing Contests himself in the future.

::laughs::

V Faction
21st February 2006, 4:54 PM
All righty... A discussion thread by Sapphire again.... Yes... I haven't been here recently, as nothing seemed to be interesting till I saw the next three epi titles...
Does that mean you thought the Sceptile episodes were unintersting?

Geki
21st February 2006, 5:27 PM
I think Brock will win if they do battle. He has three good Pokemon, and May does as well, but Brock has more experience.

Kabuto
21st February 2006, 5:29 PM
www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=105811 Take the discussion here....Anyway i root for Brock because Bonsly > Eevee.

JazzJazz
21st February 2006, 5:37 PM
I think Brock will win if they do battle. He has three good Pokemon, and May does as well, but Brock has more experience.

We've seen trainers without the upper hand in experience take victory in the anime before, Brock's longer history as a pokemon trainer probably won't help him against May (not if the writers have anything to say about it).

CyberCubed
21st February 2006, 5:39 PM
Reminds me of Wakana, a rookie coordinator who almost beat May and Combusken with her Vibrava.

Or rather, May beating Grace and her Medicham, when Grace had 3 ribbons and May didn't have a single win at the time.

Jo-Jo
21st February 2006, 6:36 PM
I wish Brock would win. He deserves it, and I'm so tired of him being shunted into the background. But the odds are stacked against him, sadly. :(

Manene!
21st February 2006, 7:01 PM
Brock's fate is already set in stone. Notice how Bonsly is always in Brock's arms? As soon as the D/P region is done with (If not the BF) Brock will leave taking his Bonsly with him. Only to return to send off the little angel to parts unknown. It's no longer about Brock, It's all about Bonsly now. He'll suffer the same fate as Misty and become a prop to hold Bonsly. So, It doesn't hurt it's precious little feet. So, like Misty, The little amount of interesting-ness will be sucked out of Brock right in front of are eyes. Eventually leading to a new male character to come in and start a new batch of "Brock .vs. ??????" that we will have to suffer with for all eternity. Brock basically died when he caught the little tree, rock. Therefore, Brock will most likely lose. But, Will advance Bonsly by making him use solarbeam, naturally. Then the world will see how great Bonsly is and show the true evilness of the horrible hell spawn Eevee as it is the Antichrist. I'm rooting for you, you horrible hell spawn Eevee.

Jikkle
21st February 2006, 8:01 PM
I would really like Brock to win not because I hate May or anything but just to shake things up but I doubt it will happen since I don't think the writers have time to throw in another contest loss for May but hopefully I'm wrong. I really hope that Brock does well though and should be an interesting episode no matter who wins.

To be honest I expected an episode like this would happen but I figured it would've been Ash to enter due to Drew making fun of him and wanting to show up Drew or him getting in another fight with May and showing her up. I'm sure that kind of episode will happen one day though but probably sometime in the D/P saga

PDL
21st February 2006, 8:36 PM
I predict that Brock will win, but will give the newly won ribbon to May by the end of the episode... since he's a nice guy (and doesn't plan on entering more contests)

the only reason why he's entering this one in the first place was because of a hot woman.

that and the writers would really want Brock to do a "winning pose"

ghost master
21st February 2006, 9:01 PM
shouldnt this thread be locked? Since there is already a thread discussion.

Anyway I hope Brock wins although its most likely May's going to win. I would really like to see Brock win because he never gets spotlight and will most likely be gone next saga. Besides Bonsly is kinda cool and I'd rather see Bonsly do something important because we know were going to see Eevee do something important and be good we dont need to see that. Although knowing the writers they are somehow going to find a way around it. Whether that means getting a tie or some other interference.

FabuVinny
21st February 2006, 9:26 PM
Still going on about how Bulbagarden is so anti-AG, Cybercubed?

May will win this because she needs the contest ribbon. End of story.

≈*Virulent Tsunami*≈
21st February 2006, 9:35 PM
May will win this because she needs the contest ribbon. End of story.

What, this is the last Contest in Kanto? 0_0 It's not like May can't lose here and get her Ribbon in the next one >>;; Either way, may will get all her Ribbons, so why not postpone this one and let Brock actually do something ._.


~*CB*~
The 8th Champion

ChaosMage
21st February 2006, 9:55 PM
Well, Ash has 5 symbols, and one to go (in the actual journey before the pyramid) and May needs two ribbons quickly, as one of her rivals has already qualified for the GF and Harley is nearly there too. She can't afford to lose now, as she'll have another one after Ash's Battle Tower challenge before the GF. Don't hate me, just accept that that's the formula the show works by.

But there's no saying Brock can't just give her his ribbon... or maybe it'll be a tie!

MagicBox
21st February 2006, 10:08 PM
The only reason I want Brock to win is so he can show the audience that he is still a great trainer. I mean, look at this forum alone. Everyone always says that Brock should leave the group because he doesn't do anything anymore and that he's gotten stale. If he wins, that might get him some long-awaited respect from fans. But I have a bad hunch that he'll lose anyway.


What, this is the last Contest in Kanto? 0_0 It's not like May can't lose here and get her Ribbon in the next one >>;; Either way, may will get all her Ribbons, so why not postpone this one and let Brock actually do something ._.I would love that, but all signs point to May winning this one. May has already gotten her "motivation loss" for this saga, and I can't see them giving her another one in such a short time. Plus, while May has enough time to get all five ribbons, Brock doesn't, so there would be no point in giving him one just to have.


But there's no saying Brock can't just give her his ribbon... or maybe it'll be a tie!I don't think Brock will just give it to May if he wins. The writers have kind of an unwritten policy nowadays that main characters can only get a badge or a ribbon if they earn it. The don't just give things to them anymore.

But sadly, Brock isn't going to win anyway. The plot won't advance unless May gets it, so it's obvious they won't give Brock the victory. It's as simple as that.

ghost master
21st February 2006, 10:12 PM
Well, Ash has 5 symbols, and one to go (in the actual journey before the pyramid) and May needs two ribbons quickly, as one of her rivals has already qualified for the GF and Harley is nearly there too. She can't afford to lose now, as she'll have another one after Ash's Battle Tower challenge before the GF. Don't hate me, just accept that that's the formula the show works by.

But there's no saying Brock can't just give her his ribbon... or maybe it'll be a tie!ya know she could earn another ribbon after the tower and then after the pyramid. Last region May earned her 5th ribbon after Ash earned his 8th badge. Or May could earn two ribbons sometime afterwords as you said Ash needs two symbols. Hypothetically if the last battle to end the saga was Brandon which many believe it is(but I doubt) May could enter enough contests between now and then. It depends on the writers afterall May entered two contests inbetween pike and palace.

ChaosMage
21st February 2006, 10:48 PM
If Brock wins a ribbon, it'll follow the path of the heavy ball, the two fast balls, and Forretress. Just there for no reason.

MagicBox
21st February 2006, 10:56 PM
If he does win it though, I'd love to see him use it for bragging rights. Next time they see a cute filler girl, Brock could do his idiotic pick-up lines and then randomly bust out the ribbon.

"Lookie at my ribbon, be with me!"

...And then Bonsly tackles him away. That would be funny for a little while before the joke is abused for 100+ episodes.

cold_katanagirl
22nd February 2006, 12:33 AM
... You know what would be funny? If Team Rocket interrupted their final battle and May gets the ribbon because Brock decided she deserved it more or some crap.

Yeah. I'd laugh. <_<

Seriously though, I'd like for Brock to win. He kinda needs it, but it seems pretty obvious the poor guy is going to phail. D:

Kabuto
22nd February 2006, 3:02 AM
I wonder. Why would brock enter if he wants May to succeed? It truly makes no sense.

Flamez
22nd February 2006, 3:05 AM
To impress the girl that will air in this episode from what im hearing.

brock vs. may- i dont know, may will most likely win although i would like brock to beat her.

Judai Yuki
22nd February 2006, 3:12 AM
Oh course Brock will win they shouldn't have him battle May if he wouldn't.

Almighty Zard
22nd February 2006, 3:29 AM
here's my prespective

Hoenn region
8 gyms
8 contest halls total, even if may only competed in seven the first one still counts as it got her intrested in them.

Kanto Region
7 facilities
do the math on the contest halls she has enough room for one more loss.

and before any of you start saying that the writers don't have the time to squeeze them in, we don't know jack squat about diamond and peral other than the new pokemon so until we do they have plenty of time to make this saga lengthier. Heck i hope Brock does win, and it's either marshtomp vs combusken or forretress against squirtle. After all it's not comfirmed that Eevee and Bonsly will battle each other yet, all the contests in Kanto have been using GF rules, different pokemon for different rounds so hopefully it will continue here, and we get one of two matches above instead of a crapped out baby battle.

Shigeru-kun
22nd February 2006, 3:54 AM
I don't hate Takeshi or anything, but I seriously hope he loses this battle. Haruka's Eevee may be young, but the thing seems more capable than Takeshi's Usohachi. At least it doesn't need to be carried and bottle fed. <<;

Also no offense to you Sapphire, but I think we need a rule about making these threads too early. I mean, come on? Two weeks? It almost seems like people compete to be the thread maker anymore. ._.

CyberCubed
22nd February 2006, 4:35 AM
Oh course Brock will win they shouldn't have him battle May if he wouldn't.

More like the writers are having Brock enter a contest so they don't have to create another new coordinator for just one episode.

This episode will also establish May "above" Brock, by having her beat him. We've seen Ash beat Brock. We've never seen May beat Brock. (This is the first time they've even battled)

They're not going to have Brock upstage May in her own quest. Which is why Brock entering a Contest is a one-time only thing (to impress the girl he's trying to swoon over in this ep), and why the victor will be May as it's her storyarc and it helps her on her quest.

Oh and another point:

Heracross. They brought him into a battle and he didn't get a single win. I don't see why Brock entering a contest means the writers will allow him to win, as much as some people want to see it.

Shadowcat
22nd February 2006, 7:23 AM
It's because the other thread was on the titles and the discussions started from that thread...

lol...

And Gravy, it's because I don't like certain episodes... But that's just IMO...

I predict that Bonsly will lose as it doesn't know anything that can do good damage to Eevee at all, if this turns out to be 'Bonsly VS Eevee' at the end...

MaskedManAbsolkid
22nd February 2006, 9:54 AM
Also no offense to you Sapphire, but I think we need a rule about making these threads too early. I mean, come on? Two weeks? It almost seems like people compete to be the thread maker anymore. ._.


If I'm right, didn't Nintendo Theatre's Battle Palace one come about 3 weeks early?

Almighty Zard, it is Bonsly Vs Eevee. Why would he use a different pokemon if a breeder complimented him on Bonsly? -_- And Eevee's a given, seeing as pokemon who have achieved something go into the next contest/gym or frontier battle.

I just found out this ep airs on my birthday o_o I thought it aired on the 10th, not the 9th.

Raevell
22nd February 2006, 10:34 AM
I'm looking so forward to this! I love both characters so it doesn't matter to me who wins. Either way I'm sure to be satisfied as long as we get a battle. They could pull something lame like have Brock not even make it past the first round. (I don't think they'll do this, but...) I love that Brock will have a big part! I wonder how May is going to react to Brock entering the contest though. Whether she's going to mad or just determined to beat him.

Not only that but what will Ash and Max do? They're kind of going to be in the middle of this mini-rivalry. It's going to be funny seeing them sitting by themselves in the stands.

I haven't been this excited about an episode in a while.

The thing about Brock giving her the ribbon in the end though... They scan those things so wouldn't the computer know that she didn't actually win it? I doubt the contest league will let you pass your ribbons around to other people.

Then again is not as if this show doesn't have the occasional loop hole.

I think this episode is going to be awesome no matter which way it goes.

Shigeru-kun
22nd February 2006, 11:31 AM
If I'm right, didn't Nintendo Theatre's Battle Palace one come about 3 weeks early?
Three weeks, two weeks...my point was that thread just seems a little early. I guess I just don't see much of a point until the preview airs in Japan. Otherwise all the other speculation is pretty much left for the "new episode title!" threads.

Almighty Zard
22nd February 2006, 1:37 PM
Almighty Zard, it is Bonsly Vs Eevee. Why would he use a different pokemon if a breeder complimented him on Bonsly? -_- And Eevee's a given, seeing as pokemon who have achieved something go into the next contest/gym or frontier battle.

they'll be used for appeals that much is certain. Who said Brock was restricted from using other pokemon just cause he was wanting to show off to a girl, i'd think he'd want to impress with his other pokemon as well not just Bonsly, besides i can't see either Eevee or Bonsly actually doing serious fighting in this contest, and i would rather not see them battle at all cause Baby battes bore me to death, and did we already forget the May could still lose one more contest before the GF, and for those of you so certain May is going to win, let me say this, Ash lost the first time he went up against Brock, now it's her turn, if she wins all it proves to me is the writers are tring to show her more dominant than Ash and i don't like that, i like May but their going to far with it.

FabuVinny
22nd February 2006, 2:35 PM
Ash had a Pikachu, Pidgeotto and Butterfree against an Onix and a Geodude. May has an Eevee with Shadow Ball against a Bonsly.

This battle is a little more evenly matched.

Jo-Jo
22nd February 2006, 3:16 PM
Ugh, if May wins and I have to listen to her rabid fans crowing about how this proves she's 'superior' to Brock now, I'm going to hurl. It's annoying enough when Misty gets that treatment. Leave the rest of my favourites alone. *huggles poor Brock*

I really like the idea of him winning and giving May his ribbon. Sure, everyone would b*tch about May not having earned it, but it would be a great character moment. But Raevell had a good point about the scanner.

Flamez
22nd February 2006, 3:45 PM
Almighty Zard you really cant say just because ash lost to brock the first time around may has to do also. Although i do want brock to beat her. Its just that ash was so inexperienced back then and his pokemon were all new and that was his 1st gym battle. Pikachu wasn't invincible back then while fight rock types.lol. May has gone through the whole hoenn region won 5 ribbons and got top 8 in the grand festival. and now has 3 ribbons so she is definelty way more experienced than ash was at that time, and if she beats brock that will make sense since she has the experience to battle, And besides brock never trains his pokemon, while may has definetly been doing some offscreen training with eevee.

CyberCubed
22nd February 2006, 4:30 PM
I really like the idea of him winning and giving May his ribbon. Sure, everyone would b*tch about May not having earned it, but it would be a great character moment.

Except it would be extremely out of character for May to accept a ribbon she didn't win. After all the speeches she's made about how she earned her ribbons with her own Pokemon, why would she accept a ribbon from Brock?

Sure, he's her friend, but I don't see her doing that. Even if we say Brock wins and he offers her the ribbon, I'm sure May will refuse.

It would be extremely out of character and destroy everything May's character is about to accept the easy way out. May, like Ash, need to accomplish their goals by themselves without any cheap cop-outs. May knows this, after getting 5 ribbons in Hoenn and coming in the Top 8th in the Grand Festival, as well as having 3 ribbons so far in Kanto. She'll earn the ribbons herself.

ghost master
22nd February 2006, 4:55 PM
Who said Brock was restricted from using other pokemon just cause he was wanting to show off to a girl, i'd think he'd want to impress with his other pokemon as well not just Bonsly, besides i can't see either Eevee or Bonsly actually doing serious fighting in this contest, and i would rather not see them battle at all cause Baby battes bore me to death, and did we already forget the May could still lose one more contest before the GF, and for those of you so certain May is going to win, let me say this, Ash lost the first time he went up against Brock, now it's her turn, if she wins all it proves to me is the writers are tring to show her more dominant than Ash and i don't like that, i like May but their going to far with it. Manene and Munchlax battling were pretty exciting. I dont know why those battles bored you. Also keep in mind Ash didnt even have one badge. I would want Brock to win but, knowing the writers May will either win or the writers will somehow cop out like they did in the last Ash vs. May scenario. It could end up in a tie and Brock step down, TR causes distraction and causes Brock to lose, or vice versa may could lose by some fluke. As I said before we've seen May win we're going to see Eevee win for sure. Why not let us see Brock win for once?

As for the rest of the contest I hope Jessie to enter so we can see a good Jessie vs. Brock battle. Maybe Manene will be entered again.

MagicBox
22nd February 2006, 5:09 PM
I hadn't even considered the possibility of Jesse entering. I'd love to see Brock beat her, if not May. Since the writers like having the smallest Pokemon be able to beat up Team Rocket, I can see Bonsly beating up Seviper.

And I agree with Jo-Jo, if May wins, we're going to be hearing a bunch of crap about how May is so much better than Brock. I don't want that. Hell, if Brock wins, I don't even want to hear anything about how Brock is better than May, since she's another one of my favorites.

And how did Misty become regarded as a better trainer than Brock in the first place? They never even battled.

Gravy
22nd February 2006, 6:30 PM
And Gravy, it's because I don't like certain episodes... But that's just IMO...

...pardon me?

Even though Brock is going to lose (There's no 'IMO' about it as far as I'm concerned), it'll still be a nice change to see him put up a fairly decent fight, especially with a Bonsly that hasn't really done much of anything since its capture. Who gives a crap if he wins or loses, as he's actually going to be doing something. Something that contributes to the plot, no less!

High Commander Solomon
22nd February 2006, 7:21 PM
May's going to win. They wrote themselves into a corner with this; she has to. If this episode happened a lot earlier in the arc, I'd say Brock had hope. In fact, I hope he wins, because I want to be surprised for once.

That and I just don't like May. I'm not even sure why not. I just...don't.

Almighty Zard
22nd February 2006, 11:54 PM
May's going to win. They wrote themselves into a corner with this; she has to. If this episode happened a lot earlier in the arc, I'd say Brock had hope. In fact, I hope he wins, because I want to be surprised for once.

i would like to know where people are getting the "time constraints means May instantly wins" from. We no nothing about the next gen people, the is a chance for May to lose this(as well as Brock) so quit using that as an excuse, i've been saying Brock has a chance in this while everyone else thinks may's win is a definant insta-win.

Bionickai001
23rd February 2006, 1:18 AM
I made a thread about time constraints a long time ago but no one seemed to look at it. We have more than enough time until about the time Diamond and Pearl comes out to have May lose another one. Like I said on that other thread, if we keep on getting a symbol and a contest in every set of five episodes we'll be doig fine. That is still in effect with this episode being the last of the current set of five.

Kabuto
23rd February 2006, 2:13 AM
Everything you say is just random speculation now. Lets look at the facts:

Brock has been a pokemon trainer longer than May and even Ash and qualifies as a Gym leader. Brock has no experience with contests and has been slacking off in Hoenn when it comes to training his pokemon.

May hasn't been a trainer as long as Brock but entered many contests and won 4th place in the Grand Festival. She doesn't train that much either, but battles alot in contests.

So judging by what I know I still am unsure. if Brock manages to get past the appeals (which he most likely will) than its a mere battle. And they both seem to have equal battling experience so who will win is up in the air. We'll have to wait and see.

Geki
23rd February 2006, 3:03 AM
We've seen trainers without the upper hand in experience take victory in the anime before, Brock's longer history as a pokemon trainer probably won't help him against May (not if the writers have anything to say about it).

I guess you're right. The writers probably will have May win, but I still would like to see Brock pound her.

Flamez
23rd February 2006, 3:40 AM
Seizureman just to clear it up she got top 8 in the grand festival.

Almighty Zard
23rd February 2006, 4:16 AM
Seizureman just to clear it up she got top 8 in the grand festival.
funny considering alot of people i've heard it from said top four oh well.

CyberCubed
23rd February 2006, 4:20 AM
Nah it was Top 8th. You don't think they'd let her place higher than Ash ever has do you? :p

Both Ash and May came in the Top 8th in Hoenn. Hmm, almost as if the writers are trying to put them on even ground.

Fizban
23rd February 2006, 7:30 AM
funny considering alot of people i've heard it from said top four oh well.They didn't show the round between the May/Drew battle and the Drew/Robert one.

I really don't want to think much about this episode until the preview for it is up. Speculating too far in advance always gets the better of me.

Pitchi
23rd February 2006, 2:04 PM
Oh so Brock was just entering the contest because of the girl? Oh... O_o But oh well, he is Brock^_^ Hey is this girl also a cooridinator?

I`m not sure which one should but I`m going to root both^^ But... Imagine Brock with ribbon... ugh O_o


Sure, he's her friend, but I don't see her doing that. Even if we say Brock wins and he offers her the ribbon, I'm sure May will refuse.

I agree, I don`t see she accept the ribbon which she didn`t even win.

intergalactic platypus
24th February 2006, 1:13 AM
LMAO! Watch poor Brocko get his arse kicked by a 10 year old. You know its gonna happen, judging from the fact that Brocks battle ability is rarely showcased these days

Squirtle_007
24th February 2006, 1:37 AM
LMAO! Watch poor Brocko get his arse kicked by a 10 year old. You know its gonna happen, judging from the fact that Brocks battle ability is rarely showcased these days

Well ... that´s not something new I mean, Takeshi has been beaten by too much people: Satoshi, Kojirou, even Meowth had beat him once, Haruka would be one more to the list.
Anyway, I don´t like Takeshi at all because the writers made him pathetic, lame and ... a maid, his role would be replaced by a kettle and a life-long Cup Noodles supply.

I hope Haruka get the ribbon, I wouldn´t support another lost against a character who I don´t like

MagicBox
24th February 2006, 2:22 AM
Well ... that´s not something new I mean, Takeshi has been beaten by too much people: Satoshi, Kojirou, even Meowth had beat him once, Haruka would be one more to the list.Uh, James cheated to defeat Brock. Of course James won, he had outside help. Meowth cheated in his battle with Brock as well. How is dumping a bucket of water on Brock's Onix a fair victory? Ash's only official victory against Brock was WAY back in episode 4. All their other battles were interrrupted somehow, except for the Torkoal & Lombre battle.

Face it guys, none of us know how capable Brock is against May, Ash, Team Rocket, or anybody else. He could be 10 times better than any of the other characters; he could be 10 times worse. We don't know right now. He hasn't battled anybody in a very long time; he also has a different team of Pokemon now. Now, it makes sense for May to win, given the fact that we're very late in the storyline for this saga, but none of us know for sure. It's still up in the air.


I hope Haruka get the ribbon, I wouldn´t support another lost against a character who I don´t likeWhat characters do you even like besides May?

Rudoku
24th February 2006, 2:24 AM
The only reason I want Brock to win is so he can show the audience that he is still a great trainer. I mean, look at this forum alone. Everyone always says that Brock should leave the group because he doesn't do anything anymore and that he's gotten stale. If he wins, that might get him some long-awaited respect from fans.
They tried that horribly with Kasumi/Misty. Remember her crappy Whirl Cup win vs. Satoshi/Ash?


The writers probably will have May win, but I still would like to see Brock pound her.
You would.

intergalactic platypus
24th February 2006, 3:11 AM
Honestly I would rather see Brock win even though he won't. I dislike May quite a bit and feel her ability is way out of proportion, and it adds to her Mary Sue status when shes an uber trainer. Poor Brocko doesn't get a shot anymore on the other hand

Squirtle_007
24th February 2006, 3:55 AM
Uh, James cheated to defeat Brock. Of course James won, he had outside help. Meowth cheated in his battle with Brock as well. How is dumping a bucket of water on Brock's Onix a fair victory?

Musashi cheated too and she had even more outside help than Kojirou and she still lost against Satoshi


What characters do you even like besides May?

If you mean MAIN characters, I like Musashi, Kojirou, Satoshi, Kasumi and Shuu
I didn´t like Takeshi since the beginning, his character is boooooooring, he don´t have any ESSENTIAL mean in the series and his "breeder" side is ... well ... isn´t
Another thing, what would Takeshi do with a ribbon?
We all know that in the end that girl will ditch him like ALWAYS

Andromache
25th February 2006, 3:39 AM
I don't count Ash's Gym battle as a victory. Neither does Ash, I suspect. Brock only counts it because he's actually modest and humble. I suppose the Torkoal vs. Lombre battle was a sort of victory, but it was still not entirely decisive because it was semi-interrupted. I count it as a win for Ash, but not completely, if that makes sense. Even if it was a true win, Ash still seems to like battling Brock, so he's not completely hopeless.

I agree that it is highly unlikely Brock will win in the contest, but it's the bragging I'm going to be hearing that worries me more than May winning, which I've already mostly accepted. If Brock won, sure we Brock fans would be squeeeing, but I don't think we'd assert that he was better than May. I'd be glad to see his reputation salvaged somewhat, but it's really enough just to say who won. I'm not a May fan, by the way. I used to be neutral toward her but now that they've made her, dare I say, an even worse Mary Sue than Misty, she gets on my nerves.

Alfonso
25th February 2006, 3:59 AM
If you mean MAIN characters, I like Musashi, Kojirou, Satoshi, Kasumi and Shuu


Misty and Shuu aren't main characters, genius.

Misty is a Reaccuring Character now, and Shuu is a Main Character's Rival. He only appears once in a blue moon and thus is not a main character.

KuwabaraTheMan
25th February 2006, 4:03 AM
Misty and Shuu aren't main characters, genius.

Misty is a Reaccuring Character now, and Shuu is a Main Character's Rival. He only appears once in a blue moon and thus is not a main character.
Kasumi appearing in around 300 episodes total is enough to qualify her as a main character. Did people suddenly stop refering to Takeshi is a main character when he left? Not that I can remember(I still counted him as one...)

Shuu appears a lot more then characters like Nanako, Sakura, Imite, etc, so while he isn't as important as the core group, he is one of the more significant characters.

Alfonso
25th February 2006, 4:10 AM
Kasumi appearing in around 300 episodes total is enough to qualify her as a main character. Did people suddenly stop refering to Takeshi is a main character when he left? Not that I can remember(I still counted him as one...)

She *was* a main character. She's now a Secondary Character that pops up once in a while, like Tracey. How many episodes she's been in doesn't mean a thing considering that her status NOW isn't the same as it was before.

The writers dumped her and she's not important. Her status of one of the oldest characters doesn't mean a thing, it seems.

She isn't anymore, so deal with it. She's been sidelined and dumped back into Cerulean Gym, where's she's happy and doing a hell of a lot more than she did when she was a Main Character.


Shuu appears a lot more then characters like Nanako, Sakura, Imite, etc, so while he isn't as important as the core group, he is one of the more significant characters.

...

...

Not sure why you're throwing Duplica and Sakura into the mix there, considering that their status in the show isn't as high as any of the characters we're talking about.

KuwabaraTheMan
25th February 2006, 4:45 AM
She *was* a main character. She's now a Secondary Character that pops up once in a while, like Tracey. How many episodes she's been in doesn't mean a thing considering that her status NOW isn't the same as it was before.

The writers dumped her and she's not important. Her status of one of the oldest characters doesn't mean a thing, it seems.

She isn't anymore, so deal with it. She's been sidelined and dumped back into Cerulean Gym, where's she's happy and doing a hell of a lot more than she did when she was a Main Character.

That doesn't keep her from being a main character. Is Amuro not a main character in UC Gundam just because he wasn't around in ZZ Gundam?

Kasumi is still has more apperances then any character aside from Satoshi, Pikachu, Musashi, Kojirou, Nyasu, and Takeshi(well Sonansu might have her beat too, since he's shown up in every episode since appearing, but I'm too lazy to check exact numbers).

She might not be the center of attention anymore, but I don't think you can pass her off any easier then you can say "Orihime and Chad do nothing in Soul Society, their not main characters in Bleach!".




...

...

Not sure why you're throwing Duplica and Sakura into the mix there, considering that their status in the show isn't as high as any of the characters we're talking about.
I was using it as an example. Shuu might not be as important as Satoshi or Haruka, but he's not a 3rd stringer like those guys are either.

Jo-Jo
25th February 2006, 3:28 PM
...Why on Earth are you guys having this argument? lol.

Alfonso, even if you do class Misty as a minor character in AG, Squirtle_007 never specificied that he was listing the main AG characters that he likes. Misty is a main character in the Pokemon anime overall. As for Drew, he's a secondary character. I'd say he's closer to being main than minor. Either way, though, does it matter? It does kinda look like you're jumping on Squirtle_007 for no real reason.


I don't count Ash's Gym battle as a victory. Neither does Ash, I suspect. Brock only counts it because he's actually modest and humble. I suppose the Torkoal vs. Lombre battle was a sort of victory, but it was still not entirely decisive because it was semi-interrupted. I count it as a win for Ash, but not completely, if that makes sense. Even if it was a true win, Ash still seems to like battling Brock, so he's not completely hopeless.

I agree that it is highly unlikely Brock will win in the contest, but it's the bragging I'm going to be hearing that worries me more than May winning, which I've already mostly accepted. If Brock won, sure we Brock fans would be squeeeing, but I don't think we'd assert that he was better than May. I'd be glad to see his reputation salvaged somewhat, but it's really enough just to say who won. I'm not a May fan, by the way. I used to be neutral toward her but now that they've made her, dare I say, an even worse Mary Sue than Misty, she gets on my nerves.
Agreed on all counts. I'd be fine with May beating Brock, so long as it was a close match - it's the inevitable crowing from the damn May-fanatics that's going to make me toss my cookies. >_>

If you don't mind me asking, though, how is Misty a Mary-Sue?

Squirtle_007
26th February 2006, 1:21 AM
Misty and Shuu aren't main characters, genius.

Misty is a Reaccuring Character now, and Shuu is a Main Character's Rival. He only appears once in a blue moon and thus is not a main character.

Check this link and tell me where are Kasumi and Shuu

http://www.serebii.net/anime/characters/

Andromache
26th February 2006, 2:01 AM
If you don't mind me asking, though, how is Misty a Mary-Sue?
Hahaha. Um...actually, I have no real basis for that. :P It just sort of sounded good at the time. It's not even an opinion I really hold. It was just to say that May is one. I haven't analyzed Misty enough to say whether or not she is one, simply because I'm not interested enough. Sorry. No good discussion this time.

KuwabaraTheMan
26th February 2006, 3:11 AM
How is Haruka a Mary Sue? The first time we see her she's riding a bike and gets scared, going off course. Then she gets attacked by a Pokemon she sends out. After that she completely fails at her first capture, and Achamo runs wild. It takes her time before she starts to get the hang of things, and she still experiences plenty of losses.

That's about as far from a Mary Sue as you can get.

CyberCubed
26th February 2006, 3:31 AM
I guess she means that she wins most of her contests, which really isn't May's fault, because the plot of the anime would never advance if May didn't win.

It's the same reason Ash wins most of his Gyms the first time and gets far into the league, the show wouldn't advance if he didn't. May getting 5 ribbons and into the GF is inevitable, because that's what the show is about, so I don't see her becoming a Mary sue because of that.

The heroes will succeed in their goals, that's just how this show works.

Raevell
26th February 2006, 3:40 AM
Arg, it hurts my eyes seeing someone write that May is a Mary Sue. >_<;; May is no more of a Mary Sue than Ash is. I hate how people want to say that because she's a chick therefore if she's good at anything she does she's Mary Sue.

If that is the case every single main female character out there is a Mary Sue. At least she doesn't angst or get kidnapped like Yuna from FFX or Kairi from KH or have silly boys fighting over her.

Anyway...

I'm enjoying the theories people are coming up with concerning Brock. We really haven't seen him battle in a long time but he does have some pretty good Pokemon on his team. Usohachi hasn't really done much but it does seem to back quite a wallop when it comes to beating up Brock. (sending him over the trees for example...)

intergalactic platypus
26th February 2006, 3:59 AM
Errrmmm we're not pulling the May as a Mary Sue theory out of our arses. Its not just cause shes female; its cause if anyone tried to stick a character like her in a fanfic they would get their heads ripped off for using Mary Sue characters

CyberCubed
26th February 2006, 4:12 AM
I'm still not seeing why. The only possible Mary Sue traits I see people arguing about is:

1) She's attractive. I've seen several female members of this board envy May because of her body at age 10. So she's a cute girl with the body of a 16 year old, so what?

2) She succeeds at Pokemon Contests and wins most of them. Again, this is not her fault. The show wouldn't be able to advance if May never won most of her Contests. It's the same reason why Ash wins most of his battles.

At the end, if you consider May a Mary Sue, you have to consider Ash one as well.

Raevell
26th February 2006, 4:45 AM
As Cybercubed said. A lot of characters on any show are Mary Sues. Some are just more extreme than others. May is incredibly mild IMO and I've never so much as considered her one. This label truly surprised me.

From Wikipedia:
Originally, the Mary Sue concept came out of Star Trek fan fiction and described an original female character who had a romantic liaison with an established, "canon" character, particularly if she possessed unrealistic or unlikely traits above and beyond those expected of a character in that particular series, or a conventional author surrogate.

I don't think this describes May at all. She loses from time to time, she doesn't have any huge love interest who worships her, and as far as we know at least she isn't based on anyone else in real life.

Ash/Satoshi is named after the creator for crying outloud.

If you don't like her that's your opinion but calling her a Mary Sue seems a touch silly to me.

Anyway, this doesn't need to turn into a defend May thread so shutting up about this.

On topic: This episode is next week, isn't it?

MagicBox
26th February 2006, 4:48 AM
On topic: This episode is next week, isn't it?The Red Inazuma episode airs this coming Thursday, and this episode airs the week after that.

High Commander Solomon
26th February 2006, 5:45 AM
Ash has been referred to as a Mary Sue in the past, especially given the fact that he's named for the franchise's creator. Nobody's gonna back away from it on those grounds, are they? The Mary Sue concept isn't strictly applied to that wikipedia definition anymore, either. It's grown somewhat, to the point where it's probably arguable depending on which definition you go by. As is mentioned, that would drag Ash into the mix as well, but so what?

It's close. I don't know, I think debating it is pointless anyway. There are, as I see it, only two or three ways the debate could go, all ending in stupid flame wars.

Ash is by many accounts a Mary Sue himself. If we take this assumption as fact, the argument has two paths - one, if May is similar in character (which has been stated ad nasueum), does that make her herself a Mary Sue? And number two, if similarity to one makes a Mary Sue, does May have enough differences to overcome it?

That's evading the definition thing altogether. Ignoring this assumption and aiming for a definition, you'll get pure chaos. People will make claims which are impossible to argue either for or against in order to support the definition they want. In general May's fans will look more specific (easier to exclude); anti-fans broader (more inclusive). This will go nowhere fast. Eventually the lesser debators will go for ad hominem attacks, as though they make a real difference.

In conclusion, don't even bother with that guy's post and just discuss the episode unless you want a flame war. Will Brock win? Doubtful. What's likely is that Brock will play defensive in the battle and lose points all the way through before hitting with some KO attack at the end, but he'll be after the time limit slightly, since he's not used to a time limit and Max will explain that contests are different from Brock's normal gym battles. Brock will lose on the points, because he isn't gonna get blasted and he won't beat a lead at her specialty, because that would open up a Pandora's Box storywise.

Yamato-san
26th February 2006, 6:59 AM
I'm still not seeing why. The only possible Mary Sue traits I see people arguing about is:

1) She's attractive. I've seen several female members of this board envy May because of her body at age 10. So she's a cute girl with the body of a 16 year old, so what?

2) She succeeds at Pokemon Contests and wins most of them. Again, this is not her fault. The show wouldn't be able to advance if May never won most of her Contests. It's the same reason why Ash wins most of his battles.

At the end, if you consider May a Mary Sue, you have to consider Ash one as well.

You're also forgetting two other things.

1) The way she scored cheap wins in a couple of her contests.... not to say Satoshi scored cheap wins himself, but these have been a bit more recent than Satoshi's Kantou experiences, so fans are more liable to bring them up. But as I've said before, there was really nothing wrong with Eneko's build-up before the battle with Phantom. Those writers just ended up screwing the battle itself. Yamabuki, though.... it wasn't really necessary for Haruka to get a ribbon that early on, and Harley really could've stood to score a win. Let's not forget the Pokemon used in Yamabuki, which brings me to point #2.

2) Yeah, you all know my stance on Zenigame. Not only is it cheap as hell, but the way Haruka gets it is pulled out of nowhere. A sudden fear of Monster Balls and then just jumping into Haruka's arms for merely walking into the room. She didn't need to do a damn thing to accomplish that capture. Though, Zenigame is more likely the Mary Sue here, not Haruka. For whatever reason, those writers wanted to have that thing around (and came up with a half-assed excuse to put it on the team), then shove it down our throat for several episodes while scoring cheap wins in spite of a good indication of receiving almost no training beforehand. Fortunately, the much cuter and less Sueish Eievui came along to upstage the thing ^^.

Squirtle_007
26th February 2006, 7:34 AM
You're also forgetting two other things.

1) The way she scored cheap wins in a couple of her contests.... not to say Satoshi scored cheap wins himself, but these have been a bit more recent than Satoshi's Kantou experiences, so fans are more liable to bring them up. But as I've said before, there was really nothing wrong with Eneko's build-up before the battle with Phantom. Those writers just ended up screwing the battle itself. Yamabuki, though.... it wasn't really necessary for Haruka to get a ribbon that early on, and Harley really could've stood to score a win. Let's not forget the Pokemon used in Yamabuki, which brings me to point #2.

2) Yeah, you all know my stance on Zenigame. Not only is it cheap as hell, but the way Haruka gets it is pulled out of nowhere. A sudden fear of Monster Balls and then just jumping into Haruka's arms for merely walking into the room. She didn't need to do a damn thing to accomplish that capture. Though, Zenigame is more likely the Mary Sue here, not Haruka. For whatever reason, those writers wanted to have that thing around (and came up with a half-assed excuse to put it on the team), then shove it down our throat for several episodes while scoring cheap wins in spite of a good indication of receiving almost no training beforehand. Fortunately, the much cuter and less Sueish Eievui came along to upstage the thing ^^.

Somebody SERIOUSLY needs a life, I swear that if he could, Yamato-chan would blame Haruka´s Squirtle for 9/11 and put a monument to his beloved flamboyant sissy guy just for the pity ribbon that the writers gave to him

Haruka a Mary Sue?, I don´t think so, she still asks for advices to Satoshi, Takeshi when she trains to her Pokémon, she even asks Masato for things that she ignores about Pokémon, Satoshi never asked for advice, he trusts in his instincts in a big part.
Sure, both Satoshi and Haruka had their "ego maniac" moments, but in a different way, Satoshi loses because he sometimes gets overconfident in his skills, but Haruka loses because she gets overconfident with her Pokémon

Heracross
26th February 2006, 7:57 AM
Somebody SERIOUSLY needs a life, I swear that if he could, Yamato-chan would blame Haruka´s Squirtle for 9/11 and put a monument to his beloved flamboyant sissy guy just for the pity ribbon that the writers gave to him
You enjoy flame wars, don't you?

MagicBox
26th February 2006, 8:30 AM
I don't think May is a Mary Sue, for reasons everybody listed already.


Musashi cheated too and she had even more outside help than Kojirou and she still lost against SatoshiThat's because Max exposed Team Rocket for being cheaters in the middle of Jesse & Ash's battle. She was forced to fight fairly, and that's when Ash won. If their battle had continued and nobody had found out Team Rocket was cheating, Jesse would've undoubtedly won the match.

Plus, Ash =/= Brock, so even if Jesse had won, what exactly would that have proven about Brock's battling ability if he wasn't in the battle at all?


Somebody SERIOUSLY needs a life, I swear that if he could, Yamato-chan would blame Haruka´s Squirtle for 9/11 and put a monument to his beloved flamboyant sissy guy just for the pity ribbon that the writers gave to himYamato-san: Using his opinion about Squirtle to prove a point in a debate.

Squirtle_007: Using his opinion about Squirtle to tell someone to get a life.

Hmmm....

Andromache
26th February 2006, 10:42 AM
Wow. I guess I should have expected to get attacked. I hadn't realized saying what I did would start a flamewar. Yeah, not real smart in hindsight.

Cyber makes a good point about the winning being more due to plot than character, which could start a whole new discussion on how much of characterization is plot and how much is unique or character-specific, or is a character a mere plot device with no life of its own? I say this debate really comes down to whether or not one likes May, and since I don't, of course, I'll think ill of her.

It's true that most main characters are Mary Sues/Gary Stus simply because they tend to be glorified and showcased as being quite skilled, well-liked, etc. But if the Slateport Grand Festival is May's first league and she already came in eighth...Plus, when she lost, she got a standing ovation. Maybe she wasn't a Mary Sue before, but she may have been turned into one. Still, I guess I'll back down on this one because we'll think what we will anyway and amittedly, you guys who like May do make valid points. Perhaps this is more a case of, "May would be a Mary Sue if she weren't still immature at times," just as Brock would be a Gary Stu if he weren't so girl-crazy and lost so many battles. That's not to say he shouldn't be as skilled as he is, but I'll concede that Ash and gang all would be Sues/Stus if not for character flaws. So I guess I was a bit hard on May.

Alfonso
26th February 2006, 10:48 AM
Check this link and tell me where are Kasumi and Shuu

http://www.serebii.net/anime/characters/

Yes, because how a character is listed on an unofficial site is what in fact, they are. Joe isn't going to go to the trouble of listing Pokemon and Pokemon AG's Main Characters seperately.

So don't get smart with me.

Jo-Jo, if someone mentions Misty and Shuu in the same sentence, one comes to the conclusion that they are talking about Pokemon AG. They also have to expect that another person is going to assume that, and that they can't turn around and say 'But oh, I actually meant...!' when corrected on it.

V Faction
26th February 2006, 2:46 PM
I'd say VS is the Mary Sue character in this episode.

Jo-Jo
26th February 2006, 3:06 PM
Sorry to go back to the M-S debate... ^^;; I don't particularly have a problem with May, but I can see why she might be classed as a Sue. As I see it, a Mary-Sue in fanfic is an original character who shows up out of nowhere and bends the world around her, taking screen time away from the regulars. She is usually glorified and made unrealistically perfect/beautiful/cool/badass. Basically, she's a character that the author is in love with and is shoehorned into the canon universe under some transparent pretext so that the author can make her fulfil her real purpose, which is to be worshipped - by the readers, and often by the characters.

I do suspect that if AG were a fanfic and May was somebody's OC, she would get a few accusations of Sue-dom. She shows up out of the blue and is instantly given top billing in the show, second only to Ash. Her contest quest is made a huge deal out of, when we'd never even heard of co-ordinators prior to AG. And her personality tends towards the overly-perfect at times; she doesn't have many big flaws, and most of the ones she has are the kind of 'flaws' that aren't really flaws at all and are only in there to make her look cute - i.e. her ditzy streak, clumsiness and naivety. It also doesn't help that she's largely seen as having 'replaced' Misty, who was a very human character and a good female role model despite having a wide spectrum of flaws.

To relate this back to the topic, I think that people might feel it unfair if May goes and beats Brock in the contest. It'll be another case of newcomer May showing up one of the original characters in the series. The fact that her fanbase will likely use her victory as 'proof' that May is better than Brock, despite the fact that the match is almost guaranteed to be close and May has much more experience in contests than Brock, just adds insult to injury.

That said, May does have a number of mitigating points. Although very important to the series, she still plays second fiddle to Ash. Her occasional egotism and willingness to trust people even when it's obvious she shouldn't are presented by the writers as genuine problems in her character. And she isn't a love-interest - most Mary-Sues in fanfic have the hero falling madly in love with them, but May and Ash are just friends. Drew, who is May's love interest, is adept at pointing out her flaws and making her look like an idiot, which also helps reduce the Sue-factor, as well as preventing her from coming off as too over-powered.

So... yeah. To be honest, analysing what makes a Sue is a lot trickier than simply making a list of traits and seeing which characters match up. I mean... Robert is 'perfect' - incredibly powerful and wise and nice - but I don't think he's a Stu at all. Giselle is stunningly good-looking, but, um, very much not a Sue, I'd say. Ash is important - hey, main character! - but I wouldn't consider him a Stu in the slightest, even knowing that he is named after the guy who created the Pokemon universe. He's way too imperfect and still gets made into the fall guy fairly often.

So the entire phenomenon is to a large extent subjective. I do think that May is closer to being a Sue than any of the other main characters... but hey, if people like her despite this, then she must be doing something right. I know I like Ginny Weasley even though most people seem to consider her very Sue-like. *shrug*


Jo-Jo, if someone mentions Misty and Shuu in the same sentence, one comes to the conclusion that they are talking about Pokemon AG. They also have to expect that another person is going to assume that, and that they can't turn around and say 'But oh, I actually meant...!' when corrected on it.
OK. The question that MagicBox originally asked was "What characters do you even like besides May?" Squirtle 007 answered, "If you mean MAIN characters, I like Musashi, Kojirou, Satoshi, Kasumi and Shuu". Nobody, at any point, specified main AG characters. And the entire point is totally academic and nitpicky anyway. Does anyone honestly care whether it's 'correct' to consider Misty a main character any more? Does this topic even have anything to do with Misty?

Alfonso
26th February 2006, 3:28 PM
OK. The question that MagicBox originally asked was "What characters do you even like besides May?" Squirtle 007 answered, "If you mean MAIN characters, I like Musashi, Kojirou, Satoshi, Kasumi and Shuu". Nobody, at any point, specified main AG characters. And the entire point is totally academic and nitpicky anyway. Does anyone honestly care whether it's 'correct' to consider Misty a main character any more? Does this topic even have anything to do with Misty?

It does seem people do, because there are people other than me have brought it up and discussed it.

CyberCubed
26th February 2006, 3:48 PM
Her contest quest is made a huge deal out of, when we'd never even heard of co-ordinators prior to AG.

This falls into the same category as new Pokemon popping up in flashbacks, i.e. (James seeing a Chimecho and Numel as a kid, etc.)

Stuff like this only has the games to blame. We've never heard of the Battle Frontier before AG either, yet now they're all over Kanto.


It also doesn't help that she's largely seen as having 'replaced' Misty, who was a very human character and a good female role model despite having a wide spectrum of flaws.

And this is something that after how long has it been now...4 years, that people will just have to get over. I realize some Misty fans are upset that Misty was replaced by a character who instantly became more important and so well-liked in such a short amount of time. It's almost as if May has the role that Misty always should have had, a role almost important as Ash's. Instead this new girl joins up with Ash and instantly becomes the second most important character in the series, making Misty look like a nobody in comparison.

Eh, that's just the way the ball bounces. Misty fans got the short end of the stick, but after 280+ episodes and 5 movies, the Pokemon writers had plenty of time to do something interesting with Misty besides turning her into a mother...they didn't. There's really nothing more to say here.


I think that people might feel it unfair if May goes and beats Brock in the contest. It'll be another case of newcomer May showing up one of the original characters in the series.

If this was in very early AG, I might agree with you. Instead, this is in the Battle Frontier Saga where May has already experienced her entire Contest quest once. This is May's second region, so she's not so much a "newcomer" anymore. It's probably why they waited this long for May and Brock to battle, they wanted her to become an established and competent battler first.

I mean just look at the stats:

May has competed in 11 Contests and came in the Top 8th in the Grand Festival. Brock on the other hand has competed in a grand total of zero.

11 > 0.

NOBODY should complain if (or rather WHEN) May beats Brock. She has a great deal amount of experience by now, with 11 Contests and a league under her belt.

As I said, if this was in early AG when May was still a newbie and she managed to beat Brock, I can see why people would be upset. But not now, not in the BF saga where May is an established coordinator and has a ton of wins under her belt.

That's basically all I have to say on this matter.

Jo-Jo
26th February 2006, 5:35 PM
It does seem people do, because there are people other than me have brought it up and discussed it.
The only person who seems to have a problem with whether Squirtle 007 classes Misty as a main character or not is you. The other people who spoke up were disagreeing with you. It's still a silly and irrelevant argument, anyway.



Her contest quest is made a huge deal out of, when we'd never even heard of co-ordinators prior to AG.This falls into the same category as new Pokemon popping up in flashbacks, i.e. (James seeing a Chimecho and Numel as a kid, etc.)
That accounts for us never having heard of contests before AG. But my main point was that May is suddenly thrust upon us at the start of AG and given this huge important sidequest that proceeds to take up more screentime than anything else in the series ever has apart from Ash's gym collecting. If a character randomly joined the group and did that in a fanfic, s/he'd probably be classed by some as a Mary-Sue or Gary-Stu. Them's the breaks.

Would you want to read a fic where May is shunted back to Petalburg City under some flimsy pretext, and some new girl pops up to take her place with a shiny new quest? I'm guessing not. Wouldn't it be even worse, therefore, for it to happen in the show, where you couldn't escape from it by hitting the back button? And what if the new girl acquired a ton of fans, and everyone started praising her to high heaven, and going on about how she was so much better than May, and sneering at the May-fans for "not being able to move on" and "clinging to the past", and telling them to "get over it"? Would you be OK with being on the receiving end of that kind of treatment?


And this is something that after how long has it been now...4 years, that people will just have to get over. I realize some Misty fans are upset that Misty was replaced by a character who instantly became more important and so well-liked in such a short amount of time. It's almost as if May has the role that Misty always should have had, a role almost important as Ash's. Instead this new girl joins up with Ash and instantly becomes the second most important character in the series, making Misty look like a nobody in comparison.
-_-

See..... that's why the Misty fans are still p*ssed. It's not because a character we loved got booted off. It's not even that we dislike her 'replacement'. It's that a significant portion of the fandom seems determined to be obnoxious about it at every conceivable opportunity. I'm sorry for singling you out, it's not you specifically, but there are a LOT of people who constantly tout May as the greatest thing ever and act as though anyone who doesn't acknowledge her wonderfulness is stupid, jealous, blind, ignorant, insert your adjective of choice here. That kind of character glorification grates, and only adds to the perception of May as a Mary-Sue.

What's more, it creates the impression that May's fanbase worships her to such an extreme degree that they're unprepared to give Misty any kind of credit. It's not enough to say that May is a good female character - no, she's the best female character. Misty is apparently "a nobody" because she wasn't the secondary lead - even though she actually got more screentime than Brock back when she was on the show, and far more than Tracey. Misty is useless because she doesn't get her own quest - because for some reason accomplishments like running a gym more-or-less single-handed, saving the lives of an entire town from a giant Tentacruel, sneaking into a criminal's lair to find the evidence to release innocent people from prison, doing action-hero leaps off bridges to save someone else's Pokemon, and beating Ash in the Whirl Cup don't count. Oh, and Misty is motherly, which for some reason is anti-feminist (b*tch, please).

I know I've said this before, but: the Pokemon anime is capable of having more than one strong female protagonist. It'd be nice to see more people acknowledging that, instead of acting as though there can be only one perfect woman on the show, and any girl who falls short of her standards is a worthless waste of a pair of ovaries.

So, that's the Misty fanbase's grievance. It remains to be seen whether Brock's will follow suit, I suppose.

Alfonso
26th February 2006, 5:58 PM
The only person who seems to have a problem with whether Squirtle 007 classes Misty as a main character or not is you. The other people who spoke up were disagreeing with you. It's still a silly and irrelevant argument, anyway.

Speaking up about = caring about it.

Or was I asleep when you start argueing against something you don't really care about? Man, that must have been a long sleep.

Rudoku
26th February 2006, 9:40 PM
Misty is useless because she doesn't get her own quest - because for some reason accomplishments like running a gym more-or-less single-handed, saving the lives of an entire town from a giant Tentacruel, sneaking into a criminal's lair to find the evidence to release innocent people from prison, doing action-hero leaps off bridges to save someone else's Pokemon, and beating Ash in the Whirl Cup don't count. Oh, and Misty is motherly, which for some reason is anti-feminist (b*tch, please).

That's because the stench of Johto permeates through her imaginary soul, replacing anything decent about her. That and that the Whirl Cup, especially her wins and loss afterward, sucked hard.

CyberCubed
26th February 2006, 10:16 PM
Jo-Jo, I understand. I'm well aware of the people including yourself (mainly female fans), who feel frustrated that they can't say they like Misty more than May without being countered by someone. And that Misty is generally put-down because May apparently dwarfs her both in the storyline and with the fandom.



But my main point was that May is suddenly thrust upon us at the start of AG and given this huge important sidequest that proceeds to take up more screentime than anything else in the series ever has apart from Ash's gym collecting. If a character randomly joined the group and did that in a fanfic, s/he'd probably be classed by some as a Mary-Sue or Gary-Stu. Them's the breaks.

That's one of the problems that the fanbase deals with when they count it as the same series.

If you count AG as a new series like the Japanese do, then everything is fair game. May was introduced like any other main character at the start of a brand new series. If you count AG as a new series, Misty was never here to begin with, and May didn't "replace" anybody. That's one of the things I'm hearing, and really this is the only solution I have to your problem.


Would you want to read a fic where May is shunted back to Petalburg City under some flimsy pretext, and some new girl pops up to take her place with a shiny new quest? I'm guessing not. Wouldn't it be even worse, therefore, for it to happen in the show, where you couldn't escape from it by hitting the back button?

Unfortunately no, I'd be p*ssed if May ever left the series for a stupid reason. (Especially if the reason for her leaving is that she runs off with Drew somewhere and leaves Ash's group because of it, I'd be frustrated as hell if that happened), especially since I really dislike that ship too but that's beside the point. As for the "back button", isn't not watching the show anymore the same thing?

In any case, you have the Japanese writers to blame for only wanting one female character with the cast at the time. The fandom just goes along with what the writers do, we can't help it.

Andromache
27th February 2006, 12:29 AM
Jo-jo, I would just like to publicly thank you for seeing my side of things. Misty, as annoying as she could sometimes be, at least felt less glorified, though she's been shown to be a competent battler. She still has her trademark feistiness, so I don't know where people are getting that Misty was destroyed. But hey, I haven't seen Johto, so that might be the problem. Sure, the feistiness might be toned down, but that's character development, just like how Ash is still immature, but it's toned down.

Jo-Jo
27th February 2006, 1:57 AM
^ Thanks, Andromache! :)


Jo-Jo, I understand. I'm well aware of the people including yourself (mainly female fans), who feel frustrated that they can't say they like Misty more than May without being countered by someone. And that Misty is generally put-down because May apparently dwarfs her both in the storyline and with the fandom.
Yeah, I know. ^_^ Sorry again if it felt like I was singling you out.


If you count AG as a new series like the Japanese do, then everything is fair game. May was introduced like any other main character at the start of a brand new series. If you count AG as a new series, Misty was never here to begin with, and May didn't "replace" anybody. That's one of the things I'm hearing, and really this is the only solution I have to your problem.
It occurs to me that a major reason why May was seen as a replacement for Misty is probably that the writers went and put in that scene with her bike getting fried. Talk about blatant parallelism.


As for the "back button", isn't not watching the show anymore the same thing?
That's rather harsh, though, isn't it? As I said, I know I get irritated enough when I read a lousy fanfic. Having to stop watching the show because of a horrible plot-twist in canon, therefore, is logically going to be even worse. That's why the Misty fans reacted so strongly to May's introduction.

But eh, it sounds like we both see where the other's coming from anyway, so I might as well stop arguing now.

CyberCubed
27th February 2006, 2:38 AM
It occurs to me that a major reason why May was seen as a replacement for Misty is probably that the writers went and put in that scene with her bike getting fried. Talk about blatant parallelism.

More like a throwback to the original series, with a twist of May not caring that her bike got destroyed. :p

And really, that's the only similar thing that May/Misty shared in the series. May has gone down an entirely different path otherwise to make her not seem so much a "replacement," as she is "her own character."

Shadowcat
27th February 2006, 8:40 AM
How the hell did this turn into a "Misty VS May Debate Thread"?


And Bonsly shall feel the pain of Eevee's Shadow Ball... And y'know... The Episode Guide for the Munchlax Episode said that a mob of girls were surrounding Brock, complimenting that Bonsly was cute and all... So, maybe a girl or a mob of females tell him that stuff?

Seriously, you guys better create a Misty VS May Debate Thread. With Jo-Jo and CyberCubed being the main debaters.

*scuttles and leaves*

Almighty Zard
27th February 2006, 1:49 PM
NOBODY should complain if (or rather WHEN) May beats Brock. She has a great deal amount of experience by now, with 11 Contests and a league under her belt.

Quote:"there is no such thing as a certain victory in battle."

Besides i know one way Brock could beat her but that's only if the writers decide to really turn her into an Ash clone, hehehehe.

JazzJazz
27th February 2006, 6:51 PM
And Bonsly shall feel the pain of Eevee's Shadow Ball...

Perhaps, but we're yet to see what bonsly can really do and this may be the first episode that we get to see it shine.

intergalactic platypus
28th February 2006, 12:24 AM
Seriously, you guys better create a Misty VS May Debate Thread. With Jo-Jo and CyberCubed being the main debaters.
NO. Mays very popular on this board, and the mods usually ignore the high amount of Misty bashing, so these debate threads turn into bloodbaths

Alastor DMc
28th February 2006, 5:28 AM
I know this isn't really being discused right now, but didn't Newbie Ash beat Brock way back in the 5th or 6th episode with only Pikachu and Butterfree? If he could beat him then, something tells me May has some chance against him now.

Fizban
28th February 2006, 5:42 AM
I know this isn't really being discused right now, but didn't Newbie Ash beat Brock way back in the 5th or 6th episode with only Pikachu and Butterfree? If he could beat him then, something tells me May has some chance against him now.Didn't Meowth beat Brock in the episode where Togepi hatched? May winning over Brock in this contest clearly proves she is just a Meowth clone.

Heheh, I needed that.

CyberCubed
28th February 2006, 5:44 AM
Notice how when Ash and Meowth originally beat Brock they used outside help via water sprinklers/buckets of water? :D

Unless May triggers the fire alarm inside the Contest hall and forces the sprinklers to go on to water Bonsly, looks like Shadow Ball will be the only thing it receives. :p

Raevell
28th February 2006, 5:49 AM
Notice how when Ash and Meowth originally beat Brock they used outside help via water sprinklers/buckets of water? :D

Unless May triggers the fire alarm inside the Contest hall and forces the sprinklers to go on to water Bonsly, looks like Shadow Ball will be the only thing it receives. :p

Do we even know for sure that she's going to be using Eevee? It seems risky to me, since the thing is still only a few episodes old, but... Heh, for old times sake that scenario would be hilarious. Brock and his constant defeat by water.

Umi Mizuno
28th February 2006, 5:53 AM
Heh, for old times sake that scenario would be hilarious. Brock and his constant defeat by water.

Ironic since he has 2 water pokemon, Ludicolo and Marshtomp. And Brock was formerly a rock type Gym Leader. :D But we'll all have to wait and see *_______*


Do we even know for sure that she's going to be using Eevee?

You're right, there is no conformation that I've seen yet for certain but I think the episode preview on Thursday will answer that.

ghost master
28th February 2006, 8:01 PM
Do we even know for sure that she's going to be using Eevee? It states in a summary of the episode that Brock uses bonsly and may uses eevee.

Alastor DMc
1st March 2006, 3:23 AM
Didn't Meowth beat Brock in the episode where Togepi hatched? May winning over Brock in this contest clearly proves she is just a Meowth clone.

Heheh, I needed that.


I'm not saying May's an Ash clone, I'm just saying Brock's not that great of a trainer. Do we even know the qualifications it takes to become a Gym Leader? It seems that just about anyone with a mono-type team and some flash clothes can get the job.

Raevell
1st March 2006, 6:03 AM
I'm not saying May's an Ash clone, I'm just saying Brock's not that great of a trainer. Do we even know the qualifications it takes to become a Gym Leader? It seems that just about anyone with a mono-type team and some flash clothes can get the job.

Oh, how harsh! XD

Who knows, really. In at least in one of the manga I recall them saying gym leaders were masters but this isn't at all the case in the anime. I would assume there to be some qualifications or perhaps all you need is to fill out a form.

Another question we'll probably never have a definite answer to.

Alastor DMc
1st March 2006, 6:49 AM
Yeah, in the Special mangas it says what you need to become a gym leader, but that's the manga, not the anime. Flannery's a gym leader, and it seems all she did was inherit it from her Grandfather. Sure, he probably wouldnt' have picked her if he didn't feel she could do the job, but it just goes to show that it doesn't take much to get that job.

Even look at the whole concept of the League. Trainers need 8 badges to compete, and every year at least a hundred trainers are eligable to compete in the league, meaning that these trainers are able to defeat 8 leaders and get to the league. If you or I lived in the pokemon world, it doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult for us (us as in, average people) to beat them and compete. Therefore, if an average person is capable of beating a Gym Leader, then the qualifications for leading a gym can't be that hard to meet.

JazzJazz
1st March 2006, 6:26 PM
I've just been hit with a feeling that this episode will mirror the one where Ash & Misty battled over totodile... I can see the same conclusion as well, with both trainers getting something out of it in the end.

ghost master
1st March 2006, 8:05 PM
Even look at the whole concept of the League. Trainers need 8 badges to compete, and every year at least a hundred trainers are eligable to compete in the league, meaning that these trainers are able to defeat 8 leaders and get to the league. I believe in the anime they've explained though that some gym leaders pick pokemon or strategy that matches the trainers skill level. I thought like with Falkner he chose stronger pokemon against him and he had other pokemon who might be begginers. So couldnt they just play at a lower skill level but still challenges them for inexperienced trainers. Also keep in mind there are a lot of gyms scattered across the regions.

ChaosMage
1st March 2006, 9:44 PM
I'm sure glad that no Marshtomp/Combusken double evolution theories have come up. But then again, anything's possible with all the evolution love nowadays.

BrokenDreams
1st March 2006, 10:25 PM
I serioulsy don't care if Brock beats May, just a good battle would be nice.

HoennMaster
2nd March 2006, 2:57 AM
I really hope Brock doesn't beat May, that would be horrible

High Commander Solomon
2nd March 2006, 3:25 AM
Why would that be horrible, exactly? It'd be quite unexpected, to be sure, but how is it "horrible?"

JazzJazz
2nd March 2006, 5:54 PM
Why would that be horrible, exactly? It'd be quite unexpected, to be sure, but how is it "horrible?"

I guess people are so against Brock beating May as he's pretty much an amateur in terms of Pokemon Contests and having him defeat her on his first try might be a bit lame... she's also like to feel like a real dud.

S.Suikun
3rd March 2006, 4:37 AM
Preview is up.

Brock is using Marshtomp in addition to Bonsly. We see an Absol battling, and...did I just see Brock's eyes!?! 0_o

.Bambi.
3rd March 2006, 4:44 AM
Well, the preview is up.
Overall, it doesn't look all that interesting. There's just nothing there to spark my interest.

Basically May is seen ordering Eevee to use Shadow Ball which it does successfully. Brock is seen with a generic long-haired woman, who I assume is the one he's trying to impress. Marshtomp is using a different kind of attack [either that or it's a new look of an old one] but it's kind of like a shimmery Bubblebeam?
Brock gets the 'fire eyes' as does a weeping Bonsly [who seems to be doubling as a hose at this point]. Lots of random 'I get youz' and the classic 'Brock proposing in the flowers' scene ensue. Random appeal Pokemon are Absol and Raticate.

One thing I noticed is that both Marshtomp and Bonsly are in the preview, yet the only Pokemon May seems to have is Eevee.


EDIT- Oh God. I forgot about Squirtle. Damn >.>
Yeah...he's pretty much so unoriginal that he's starting to look original now D: Stealing Skitty's Fortress of Solitude and all...*mumbles*

CyberCubed
3rd March 2006, 4:46 AM
Ooh, an Absol. This is the first time a trainer has owned one yes? Glad to see it's not considered a semi-legendary anymore.

Gah, Squirtle is doing an appeal for the third time. Looks like it does the same Ice sculpture Skitty did in the Grand Festival.

I guess Marshtompt is doing the appeal and Bonsly the battle right? In any case, looks good.

I really hope that Absol belongs to someone important. In the last Contest they showed us a Castform and Hoot Hoot in the preview, and they belonged to nobody special. :/

ŁańkaŃ
3rd March 2006, 5:02 AM
thing is if it's a Eevee vs someone besides Bonsly..and May wins..then that's just not a good ep in my opinion...

as i remember ppl having been mad Squirtle beating Ariados...same is here...

if it's a bonsly vs eevee...then chance i won't mind if Bonsly wins

.Bambi.
3rd March 2006, 5:07 AM
thing is if it's a Eevee vs someone besides Bonsly..and May wins..then that's just not a good ep in my opinion...

as i remember ppl having been mad Squirtle beating Ariados...same is here...

if it's a bonsly vs eevee...then chance i won't mind if Bonsly wins
Ummm...I'm pretty sure in a Summary Posted before the Preview came up said that May would be using Eevee and Brock, Bonsly. That pretty much confirms that they'll be the main focus of the episode, thus, being May and Brock's battling Pokemon.

Besides, Squirtle is doing an appeal in the preview. Unless it created a crazy ice castle thing in hopes that its opponent would merely run and impale them selves on one of the points while it sat there and flexed D:

Pitchi
3rd March 2006, 5:18 AM
The woman named Yume in this episode.. she looks older than I thought O_o And Brock`s Bonsly is so cute.

This episode will be interesting to me. Can`t wait to see who`ll win^^

Umi Mizuno
3rd March 2006, 6:28 AM
Ooh, an Absol. This is the first time a trainer has owned one yes? Glad to see it's not considered a semi-legendary anymore.

YES! I have waited for this moment too long! Finally an Absol! Someone who owns an Absol! Yes! Very happy day for Umi now.

The preview looked pretty interesting. And I felt like I had to mention this. As most of you guys know the new opening has a scene with all Harley and all Drew. They get their 5 seconds of fame! Yes!

Squirtle_007
3rd March 2006, 6:30 AM
Watching the preview ... I´m starting to dislike Takeshi more and more, the writers made him ... pathetic instead of funny, he passed to be a Gym Leader to a horny maid that would sell his friends to impress a girl.
What´s next?, is he gonna battle Satoshi to impress Rira?

Brinstar
3rd March 2006, 6:57 AM
Marshtomp is using a different kind of attack [either that or it's a new look of an old one] but it's kind of like a shimmery Bubblebeam?

It's just Mud Shot. The anime's been depicting it like that for a while now.

And oh my god, Fist of the North Star style Brock, I gotta catch this ep, haha. It looks like it's Eevee vs Marshstomp to me. Bonsly crying seems to be part of its appeal.

.Bambi.
3rd March 2006, 7:07 AM
It's just Mud Shot. The anime's been depicting it like that for a while now.
Ummm...really? Because I've been watching every new Japanese episode avidly and I've never seen Mud Shot take a blue shimmer O.o

JazzJazz
3rd March 2006, 7:18 AM
Watching the preview ... I´m starting to dislike Takeshi more and more... he passed to be a Gym Leader to a horny maid that would sell his friends to impress a girl.

Maybe he's supposed to be like a frat guy in an attempt to appeal to those who like those lame teen/college movies... :rolleyes:, yes, Brock is the Pokemon equivalent of Stifler!

Brinstar
3rd March 2006, 7:19 AM
Watch the Battle Dome episode. Tucker's Swampert's Mud Shot glows blue as well, and I'm pretty sure Brock's Marshtomp has been doing it since then as well.

.Bambi.
3rd March 2006, 7:31 AM
Watch the Battle Dome episode. Tucker's Swampert's Mud Shot glows blue as well, and I'm pretty sure Brock's Marshtomp has been doing it since then as well.
Bam, you're right. I have to be more observant =O

But I'm almost positive that we haven't seen Marshtomp use Mud Shot in its new look yet. I'm pretty sure the last Pokemon to use it was indeed Tucker's Swampert.

Why the hell did the animators give Mud Shot a blue shimmer? It's MUD SHOT. And it's a Ground type attack >.>

Gravy
3rd March 2006, 9:54 AM
Ugh, Squirtle appealing again? Jesus, I know they're not exactly spoilt for choice, but really. Why must it be necessary for that thing to appear in every freaking contest? I've seen enough Ice Beam + Bubble + Rapid Spin combos to last me a lifetime thanks.
Yeah, yeah, "b!tch b!tch whine, he always complains about this" you might say. But seriously, Haruka's Squirtle is about as fun to watch as a decaying, maggot-ridden pigeon carcass.

Its a shame that Absol's first appearence in a good while is more than likely going to result in it doing nothing of any major significance. A quick 50 second battle is all I'm expecting from it, which is pretty weak for an interesting pokémon thats only ever popped up for one episode. But then again, I guess at this point I really shouldn't try to be so picky about it.

On the plus side, its nice that Marshtomp is going to get its first chance ever to do something worthwhile.
Bah.

High Commander Solomon
3rd March 2006, 3:50 PM
Hey, that pidgeon carcass rots over time. That's some serious entertainment right there!

day_macca
3rd March 2006, 5:56 PM
What was going on with Brock's face? It scared me

heavybassx
3rd March 2006, 6:01 PM
I agree Brock deserves a win for a change.

ChaosMage
3rd March 2006, 7:49 PM
Eevee beating Marshtomp in its first battle since evolution? Bollocks!

Nintendo Theatre
3rd March 2006, 8:58 PM
I'm kinda thinking that Marshtomp will evolve in this ep. Don't ask me why, but I think he will.

JazzJazz
3rd March 2006, 10:02 PM
I'm kinda thinking that Marshtomp will evolve in this ep. Don't ask me why, but I think he will.

Someone had to say it...

I've still got a feeling that this battle will work out in a similar manner to the time that Ash & Misty battled for totodile, with each trainer gaining something in the end (i.e. totodile and poliwag evolving respectively).

ChaosMage
3rd March 2006, 10:03 PM
Nothing will evolve for at least a few weeks. Why make a new opening and not include spoilers of pretty much immediate events? Although Marshtomp doesn't appear in said intro...

CyberCubed
3rd March 2006, 10:04 PM
Maybe something like May getting her ribbon and Brock getting a kiss on the cheek from the breeder girl. That's about the only good thing that can happen to Brock in this ep.

Yamato-san
3rd March 2006, 10:12 PM
well, after a sweet beginning, the end of the Red Inazuma episode's been a big disappointment for me. First the writers feel the need to redeem Zenigame's earlier loss, then I see that Glory Day is STILL the ending theme, and now this. Zenigame doing yet another appeal, Heath's Laglarge has influenced Takeshi's Numacraw with that crappy glowing Mud Shot, and it seems as though Usohachi is doing the appeal and Numacraw's battling Eievui. That really sucks, since I was expecting a baby vs. baby thing here, make it less of a kick to the balls when the newborn Eievui ends up winning a contest.

ANTI-ZENIGAME (and pro-Eievui/Harley) RANT AHEAD

Ah well, it still can't be worse than Zenigame vs. Ariados. For one, it's been implied that Eievui's done some serious training off-screen and could probably handle its own rather nicely at this point (rather than still seeking Haruka's protection and being coddled like a baby one minute, then pulling a Shadow Ball out of its a** the next, with the only implication of training being a mock fight that gets interrupted). Second, Takeshi has no experience in contests and, even though it's evolved, Numacraw seems to have seriously lacked in training. There's also my personal bias that Eievui actually looks cute to me, the tension that was building inside me when Haruka got Zenigame isn't there, and Harley>Takeshi. I could care less about Takeshi getting a loss against a baby, and I'm one of several people who's anticipating the guy's departure at the end of AG (besides, it's not like he managed to get into the Grand Festival, yet got whooped by Haruka two times prior). Yep, I honestly wouldn't give a damn if Numacraw ends up knocked out with Eievui standing on top of it, flexing its forelegs or whatever a quadraped does to arrogantly show off.

sam_h12
3rd March 2006, 10:49 PM
erm, spell names in english please! if you can speak everything else in english, im sure its not hard...

and yeah i was expecting the babies to go against eachother too...

.Bambi.
4th March 2006, 12:51 AM
erm, spell names in english please! if you can speak everything else in english, im sure its not hard...

and yeah i was expecting the babies to go against eachother too...
Wow...dig your own grave much. See you in hell :)
FYI, this (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=100333) is here for a reason.


Hmmm...after watching the preview a few times over today, I'm going to have to agree that it indeed looks like Marshtomp will be the battler. Which is a shame. When else are we going to see Bonsly battle?

Wait...maybe that's the reason why Bonsly isn't the battling Pokemon. Because the Babies usually don't battle. Look at Manene in the last contest, it used Mimic, Teeter Dance, and Tickle. Not exactly damaging moves.
Why can't we just see Baby Pokemon h-core battle for once? I mean, at least Bonsly has Double Edge and Flail instead of nothing! Using a Fake Tears for an appeal is bad BTW.

Korobooshi Kojiro
4th March 2006, 12:52 AM
A Shame? Marstomp battling is awesome! Its cool!

Besides, do you wanna see Bonsly do some UBER battling?

Gravy
4th March 2006, 12:54 AM
Why can't we just see Baby Pokemon h-core battle for once?
Tyrogue? Elekid? Magby? Wynaut? :P

Korobooshi Kojiro
4th March 2006, 12:57 AM
Munchlax? Manene? Those babies kicked something fierce a couple episodes back!

.Bambi.
4th March 2006, 1:10 AM
Tyrogue? Elekid? Magby? Wynaut? :P
Sorry, I didn't mean those Babies. I should have said the 4th Generation Babies. Mainly Bonsly and Manene [all it did was Tickle Combusken and Mimic a Fire Spin >.>]

I guess what I'm trying to say is I wish Manene and Bonsly could have more battles with actual damaging attacks like Gonbe has done. Not this Fake Tears and Tickle thing they've got going on...


EDIT-

Munchlax? Manene? Those babies kicked something fierce a couple episodes back!
That makes me lol.

Gym Leader Jasmine
4th March 2006, 1:19 AM
What will happen to Brock if he get stale and leaves loses than we lose misty and brock what could get worse?

Alfonso
4th March 2006, 2:03 AM
What will happen to Brock if he get stale and leaves loses than we lose misty and brock what could get worse?

...

When he GETS stale?

He was stale a few episodes into Johto. Leaving would probably be the best thing for the writers to do for him.

MagicBox
4th March 2006, 2:05 AM
I´m starting to dislike Takeshi more and more, the writers made him ... pathetic instead of funny, he passed to be a Gym Leader to a horny maid that would sell his friends to impress a girl.God forbid the main characters get to have a friendly competition once in a while. So, just because May enters something, that automatically means that Ash, Brock, or Max aren't allowed to participate? Lighten up. He's not selling anyone out; he's just participating because he feels like it.

Well, despite what we've been told, I guess Marshtomp will be battling this time, while Bonsly handles the appeals. I know it's already been said, but it just doesn't seem to make sense this way. What can Bonsly possibly do that will impress the judges enough to pass? It's got Fake Tears and Tackle. Even if it does manage do get the judges approval, I don't think it will look very interesting. There's only so many things you can do with two attacks.

It doesn't work very well with Marshtomp battling either. If it wins, it's going to seem very unfair since Marshtomp is a second stage Pokemon with much more experience than a new-born Eevee. If it loses, I can only imagine how many threads about "Brock's such a weak trainer, he lost to a baby!" are going to be posted all over the internet. No matter what the outcome, I see this battle getting bashed.

At least the animation is pretty decent, and besides Squirtle making ANOTHER appeal, the contest looks entertaining. When's the last time we saw a Raticate? And an Absol is just unexpected. I wonder who will defeat it, Marshtomp or Eevee.

I'm so scared that my high, high expectations are going to be shattered next Thursday, but I can't help it; I'm too excited.

CyberCubed
4th March 2006, 2:23 AM
What will happen to Brock if he get stale and leaves loses than we lose misty and brock what could get worse?

Cast changes are only made either at the very beginning or very end of a saga.

In any case, the cast will remain as it is right now till when the BF saga draws to a close. At that point we may see some shake ups, as I doubt we're going to have Ash, May, Max and Brock AGAIN for the D/P region.

We've had this cast for 4 years, I honestly don't think it'll be continuing the way it is when the D/P saga starts.

.Bambi.
4th March 2006, 2:26 AM
Two corrections, MagicBox


He's not selling anyone out; he's just participating because he feels like it.
Brock is battling to impress a girl. A generic girl at that.


It's got Fake Tears and Tackle. Even if it does manage do get the judges approval, I don't think it will look very interesting. There's only so many things you can do with two attacks.
Bonsly actually has Fake Tears, Double Edge, and Flail. Go to the Move Catalogue and have a look-see...

MagicBox
4th March 2006, 2:53 AM
Brock is battling to impress a girl. A generic girl at that.Right, and granted, that is a pretty dumb excuse for a plot. It's just that the point that I was trying to make was that just because one character enters something doesn't mean another character is "selling out" that person just because they entered as well.


Bonsly actually has Fake Tears, Double Edge, and Flail. Go to the Move Catalogue and have a look-see...Oh, whoops. My bad. Sorry for the lack of knowledge there.

*Heads to thread*

Kabuto
4th March 2006, 4:11 AM
Doesn't Bonsly have Rock Slide from the Pokemon XD Battle De Bingo. We may see it used if we're lucky enough.

JazzJazz
4th March 2006, 5:13 AM
Leaving would probably be the best thing for the writers to do for him.

They've already had Brock leave and, when he came back, nothing had changed... either he gets interesting or we do ourselves (and Brock) a favour and put him out of his misery. I'll go get a shovel...

Judai Yuki
4th March 2006, 5:22 AM
But then they'd have noone and their magicial pot to feed them! :D

Torkoal Stu
4th March 2006, 7:41 AM
But then they'd have noone and their magicial pot to feed them! :D
They survived without out in the Orange Islands, but only God knows how.

Dear god, Marshtomp vs Eevee and Bonsly doing appeals X_X Worst set-up ever.


Maybe something like May getting her ribbon and Brock getting a kiss on the cheek from the breeder girl. That's about the only good thing that can happen to Brock in this ep.
If Brock won he would probably give his Ribbon to May, like Ash's 'pity badges' as I think Misty called them once.

Absol and Raticate, hmmm I guess thats ok but I was so looking forward to this episode but it just seems bad now.

Squirtle creating ice things, how old is that already? ?_?

One last thing Brock was holding a Rice Ball when he looked at Bonsly, you know with all the fire maybe his appeal will be cooking based D: Different I guess but doesn't really stop my bad feelings about this episode.

Fizban
4th March 2006, 8:06 AM
If Brock was going to give the ribbon away, he'd give it to the girl he was trying to impress. This could all be some sort of devious plot to get her into the Grand Festival without ever having to enter a single contest.

Girl of the week, does your evil know no bounds?

ChaosMage
4th March 2006, 11:16 AM
I hope Eevee does more than Shadow Ball. And, although you may disagree, I'd love to see it use Attract. It's useful in battle, and lovey-dovey Marshtomp rocks your socks!

.Bambi.
5th March 2006, 3:31 AM
I hope Eevee does more than Shadow Ball. And, although you may disagree, I'd love to see it use Attract. It's useful in battle, and lovey-dovey Marshtomp rocks your socks!
Hmmm...that's actually not a bad idea.

Brock's Marshtomp has already shown that it can be lovey-dovey [with that Flaaffy in the episode when it evolved], so if Eevee were to use Attract on it, that would be like giving Brock Jenny/Joy Lesbian Porn.

Given that it will NEVER happen though. If Eevee were to learn a unique attack like Attract, surely it would be in the Preview.
Besides, if her Beautifly, who learns it naturally, didn't use it, why would Eevee? *thinks of Mega Kick, Ice Beam, Solarbeam, Focus Punch, Metronome, and Blizzard* Ehehehe...never mind.

Judai Yuki
5th March 2006, 3:35 AM
They survived without out in the Orange Islands, but only God knows how.

Dear god, Marshtomp vs Eevee and Bonsly doing appeals X_X Worst set-up ever.


Only because they had Tracey's pictures to eat,and Lapras to regurgitate(sp?) food for them. xD

Infinite Master Sceptile
5th March 2006, 3:58 AM
Am I the only person happy that Marshtomp might battle Eevee?
Probably. Also probable is that I am one of the few people who really loves Marshie. That's why I'm happy it will be in this contest, no matter what happens. Also, there's a chance there will later be a cool avatar of Marshie on the forum.

Gravy
5th March 2006, 2:24 PM
Am I the only person happy that Marshtomp might battle Eevee?
Actually, no. You're not :P
Marshtomp presents more of a challenge to Eevee due to the attacks and strength it has, whilst not being a particulary strong pokémon itself. The thing has only ever been seen in two battles, one where it retreated halfway through, and the other involved it participating in a pratice scuffle. That's hardly enough to bring out its potential, so Eevee managing to take it down isn't exactly farfetched.

...plus, I like Marshtomp a hell of a lot more than Bonsly (battle and apearence wise), despite the fact it has a cruddy voice in both original and dub :P

Korobooshi Kojiro
5th March 2006, 2:31 PM
Marshtomp voice in the original rules! And I am also happy he is battling!

It goes "MAACRO!"

.Bambi.
5th March 2006, 9:50 PM
...plus, I like Marshtomp a hell of a lot more than Bonsly (battle and apearence wise), despite the fact it has a cruddy voice in both original and dub :P
This is WAYYY off topic, but how do you know what Bonsly's Dub voice sounds like? The 8th Movie has yet to be released outside Japan and 4Kids is nowhere close to dubbing "Bonsly & the Ninja School!"

V Faction
5th March 2006, 9:52 PM
This is WAYYY off topic, but how do you know what Bonsly's Dub voice sounds like? The 8th Movie has yet to be released outside Japan and 4Kids is nowhere close to dubbing "Bonsly & the Ninja School!"
Gravy's referring to Marshtomp's voice.

.Bambi.
5th March 2006, 9:56 PM
Gravy's referring to Marshtomp's voice.
Oh...OH GOD. Why must I be so dense?

*searches for desk*

Squirtle_007
6th March 2006, 7:02 AM
God forbid the main characters get to have a friendly competition once in a while. So, just because May enters something, that automatically means that Ash, Brock, or Max aren't allowed to participate? Lighten up. He's not selling anyone out; he's just participating because he feels like it.

Sure, he looks very friendly in this picture


http://pokemonpalace.net/episode/images/ag/ag167/preview/000027.jpg

.Bambi.
6th March 2006, 7:08 AM
Sure, he looks very friendly in this picture


http://pokemonpalace.net/episode/images/ag/ag167/preview/000027.jpg
Are you TRYING to start a fight or something? Becuase we all know Brock is giving May the flame-eyes >.>

If you see the Preview, it will show Brock with the flame-eyes, and then Bonsly gets them as well. So I'm guessing Brock is trying to inspire Bonsly so it will do it's best in the Contest [whether that be an Appeal or Battle].

Besides, I don't know how happy Bonsly would be to be in a Contest in the first place...it is quite the sassy number. God, there has to be a better word than "flame-eyes" D:

Shadowcat
6th March 2006, 10:54 AM
Hm...

Hm...

Hm..

Okay... Takeshi is so disloyal to Azami, who pratically likes him. There was so much blushing from her in the Azami Epi, and Takeshi gives up her, and moves on.

Okay... We shall call the writers to call Azami to kill Takeshi. And I hope Haruka will win, afterall, it's Eevee's first contest.

And oh dear, I miss Skitty and Beautifly too much now...

STJ
6th March 2006, 10:59 AM
Well, Brock is the person who can move on pretty quickly XD

and, though Azumi may have returned feelings, Max never gave a chance for Brock to find that out.

But, about the episode.. well, it looks interesting.. I'm sorta hoping Brock'll win, but I shall wait and see

Korobooshi Kojiro
6th March 2006, 9:34 PM
God, there has to be a better word than "flame-eyes" D:

Soul Flare.

Anyway, is it me, or does the girl who Brock likes have a very simmilar appearance to Milly in the Castform Episode who was actually Bannai......I have this weird feeling it's Bannai in this episode, seeking revenge.

ghost master
6th March 2006, 9:45 PM
Anyway, is it me, or does the girl who Brock likes have a very simmilar appearance to Milly in the Castform Episode who was actually Bannai......I have this weird feeling it's Bannai in this episode, seeking revenge. correct me if I'm wrong but Brock didnt fall for millie. He soon sensed something wrong about Millie and has been able to about every other girl. So I doubt it would be an imposter. Although it would be interesting if she was tricking Brock to win the ribbon so she could manipulate him for the ribbon.

.Bambi.
6th March 2006, 10:19 PM
Soul Flare.
Hmmm...quite.


Anyway, is it me, or does the girl who Brock likes have a very simmilar appearance to Milly in the Castform Episode who was actually Bannai......I have this weird feeling it's Bannai in this episode, seeking revenge.
Yeah, that's a nice idea in theory, but your story really doesn't check out. Let's have a look-see


http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/houen/359/AG310.jpg http://pokemonpalace.net/episode/images/ag/ag167/preview/000049.jpg

They really don't look anything alike. Also, I'm pretty sure Bannai is finished with his life of crime, isn't he?


correct me if I'm wrong but Brock didnt fall for millie. He soon sensed something wrong about Millie and has been able to about every other girl. So I doubt it would be an imposter. Although it would be interesting if she was tricking Brock to win the ribbon so she could manipulate him for the ribbon.
Ooh, I actually really like that idea. She's really a vicious, manipulative biotch who makes innocent, horny guys do her bidding in Contests. Then after they win, she simply reaps the rewards and leaves them heart-broken. Hah...I love it. That would be like a female Harley >:3

Even if she is that way and Brock does win, May will obtain the Ribbon one way or another...she just has to.

Korobooshi Kojiro
6th March 2006, 10:24 PM
Bannai, last time I checkd, was still a thief. Maybe he wants brock to win, to get back at May, then he'll steal the ribbon and attack Ash and friends.

I don't know, the girl gives me a bad vibe regardless if its Bannai.

ghost master
6th March 2006, 11:20 PM
Ooh, I actually really like that idea. She's really a vicious, manipulative biotch who makes innocent, horny guys do her bidding in Contests. Then after they win, she simply reaps the rewards and leaves them heart-broken. Hah...I love it. That would be like a female Harley >:3 That would be cool. Although chances of that happening arent high. Although I do agree with Kojiro that something is up with this girl. Although she is kinda hot. If she were to be a manipulative biotch and as hot as the preview lets on then I may be a fellow supporter of her.

Bannai, last time I checkd, was still a thief. Maybe he wants brock to win, to get back at May, then he'll steal the ribbon and attack Ash and friends. Still though Brock sensed something was wrong when Bannai dressed up as females(or any female imposters for that matter) before. I dont think this would be any different.

Addydo
7th March 2006, 11:12 AM
Is it Eevee vs. Bonsly or is it Eevee vs. Marshtomp? :confused:

celebi2k
7th March 2006, 12:28 PM
Seeing in how i dont like May i want brock to win. But seeing as how May is a lead character the writers are most likely going to let may win. I thought that ash was going to enter a contest and face drew but dont look like that will be happening.

HoennMaster
7th March 2006, 1:26 PM
Is it Eevee vs. Bonsly or is it Eevee vs. Marshtomp? :confused:

From the pics I've seen it seems they use Squirtle & Bonsly in the appeals and Eevee & Marshtomp in the battles so I guess Eevee Vs. Marshtomp

Caseydia
7th March 2006, 7:21 PM
I think Brock will win if they do battle. He has three good Pokemon, and May does as well, but Brock has more experience.

Just because Brock has more experience doesn't mean he'll bet her. If you'll look in the past of Ash losing to May a few times. Unlike May, Brock doesn't battle that much as he used to when he was a gymleader.

CyberCubed
7th March 2006, 8:03 PM
I don't recall Ash ever losing a battle to May. Unless you count Torchic Vs. Taillow in Petalburg city, but that didn't count as the townspeople were crazed and Taillow didn't faint.

The first time Ash and May battled, which was Taillow Vs. Beautifly I believe, Ash won.

In "The Bicker the Better" Ash and May battled against each other with Team Rocket, but then TR went nuts so Ash/May teamed up against them.

And then of course in that Fighting Dojo episode where they battled with Hitomonlee/Hitmonchan they never finished.

Kabuto
7th March 2006, 9:38 PM
Off topic but lets hope they keep it that way. Ash is far ahead of both May and Brock. I swear if that Squirtle takes down Sceptile...........(explosion)

The Benmeister
7th March 2006, 9:39 PM
If Squirtle takes down Sceptile I will throw my fishtank out of the window.

I thought it was already confirmed previously that Bonsly and Eevee would be battling...? Seems like that's not the case anymore.

Jo-Jo
7th March 2006, 9:41 PM
:/ I'm not too happy about Marshtomp battling. If it loses to Eevee when it has an evolutionary advantage, it'll make Brock look like a weakling. At least Bonsly had the excuse of being a baby Pokemon.

Kabuto
7th March 2006, 9:42 PM
Eevee vs Marshtomp eh? Marshtomp better win then because that furball better not pull an uber. Mudkip around since beginning of Hoenn, Eeevee around since mid BF. I think we all know who should win. I wish they'd have Combusken fight Marshtomp. Then I'd root for May since Combusken rules.

Alfonso
7th March 2006, 9:47 PM
Hmmmmm...

I don't know what to think about this episode. On one hand, it means that Brock is doing something worthwhile. On the other, what he is doing interferes with May's goals. Why couldn't they have given him something *original*. Something Bonsly related would have been cool, but they missed their chance for that. ._.

If May wins, then she's one step closer to what she's aiming for. If Brock wins, he'll have a ribbon that will effectively be useless.

Kabuto
7th March 2006, 9:51 PM
If May wins, then she's one step closer to what she's aiming for. If Brock wins, he'll have a ribbon that will effectively be useless.


I think May is a great character. Sadly,If Eevee beats Marshtomp, then we'll see Squirtle haters and Eevee haters. And May will be thought of as an uber trainer for beating a reasonably experienced pokemon with a newly hatched baby that pulled a shadow ball out of its arse.

CyberCubed
7th March 2006, 10:13 PM
:/ I'm not too happy about Marshtomp battling. If it loses to Eevee when it has an evolutionary advantage, it'll make Brock look like a weakling. At least Bonsly had the excuse of being a baby Pokemon.

Mudkip/Marshtompt was never a strong Pokemon to begin with. That thing has been in barely any battles, and all Brock used it for was a generic Water Gun attack for something.

If Eevee is fast enough it can just pummel it with Shadow Balls in every direction.

It'll probably make Marshtompt look more like a weakling (which let's face it, it is) more so than Brock.

Gravy
7th March 2006, 10:18 PM
Marshtomp presents more of a challenge to Eevee due to the attacks and strength it has, whilst not being a particulary strong pokémon itself. The thing has only ever been seen in two battles, one where it retreated halfway through, and the other involved it participating in a practice scuffle. That's hardly enough to bring out its potential, so Eevee managing to take it down isn't exactly farfetched.

So yeah, thats why I think it's acceptable for Marshtomp, as much as I love the guy, to lose this one. It may be an evolved pokémon, but that doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't have any actual training under it's belt. And damn, all it has are Mud Shot and Water Gun. Poor guy doesn't have any melee attacks, so there's it's first disadvantage right there.

Korobooshi Kojiro
7th March 2006, 10:19 PM
I dunno, Marshstomp could do some serious damage with those tails of his, he should use Iron Tail!

jolteonjak
7th March 2006, 10:25 PM
If May wins, then she's one step closer to what she's aiming for. If Brock wins, he'll have a ribbon that will effectively be useless.

Which is exactly why May will win. Its the same argument people give for Jessie's lack of a Contest win (when she fights clean). Yes, I would love for Jessie to win a contest (preferrably wanted her to win the one with Manene, but nope...). I hope at least Brock puts up a good fight.

HoennMaster
8th March 2006, 12:38 AM
I'm sure Eevee will win and May wins the contest

.Bambi.
8th March 2006, 2:32 AM
I dunno, Marshstomp could do some serious damage with those tails of his, he should use Iron Tail!
Haha...that would cause a reaction equal to that of Squirtle taking down both Flygon and Sceptile with a single Ice Beam.

Though Solarbeam has been pretty popular lately, Iron Tail was the attack that 'got around' in Hoenn, thus has a bad rep. If Marshtomp pulls out an Iron Tail from nowhere while Pikachu struggled for quite a few episodes, then it would be no better than Squirtle D:

In short: Not going to happen.

Yamato-san
8th March 2006, 2:57 AM
I think May is a great character. Sadly,If Eevee beats Marshtomp, then we'll see Squirtle haters and Eevee haters. And May will be thought of as an uber trainer for beating a reasonably experienced pokemon with a newly hatched baby that pulled a shadow ball out of its arse.

I'll say this again. Eievui, trained. Zenigame, coddled. Eievui, huge implication that it's actually doing stuff off-screen, could probably hold its own if it got into a fight. Zenigame, had interrupted mock fight with Gomazou, no indication of much other training as implied by both lack of dialogue touching on the subject and the way it's still seeking Haruka's protection very shortly before it starts kicking butt. Eievui, probably earned that Shadow Ball. Zenigame, pulled that Ice Beam completely out of its a**. Difference, big.

Shadowcat
8th March 2006, 8:06 AM
Agreed Gravy. What can it do with Water Gun and Mud Shot?

Fizban
8th March 2006, 8:27 AM
Agreed Gravy. What can it do with Water Gun and Mud Shot?That sounds like the perfect recipe for a mineral bath, just the kind of pampering the fluffball needs to make it evolve into Espeon or Umbreon.

I had to stretch pretty far for that joke.

Nintendo Theatre
9th March 2006, 1:49 PM
Well, the episode aired...what happenned?

Alfonso
9th March 2006, 2:20 PM
Well, the episode aired...what happenned?

No one will know for several hours yet.

Sushi
9th March 2006, 2:25 PM
From PokeAni:

May won the Contest. It's said that her Eevee used Dig and Marshtomp Protect.

Lupin
9th March 2006, 3:41 PM
From PokeAni:

May won the Contest. It's said that her Eevee used Dig and Marshtomp Protect.

Dig eh, we havn't seen that on a main characters pokemon since Brocks Onix.

Alfonso
9th March 2006, 4:11 PM
And I bet Brock won't have had any character development, new determination, or even have any lessons learnt. He was just set up to be cannon fodder to May: Hence why I said they should have given him an episode all to himself, which didn't involve the other characters in an important way.

You know, like an episode about his ACTUAL Pokemon Breeding goal. Whatever *that* is, anyhow.

I find it funny that after one short season, Tracey fufilled his one goal and yet Brock after all this time isn't even one stop closer than he was back in the 5th episode. Pretty sad, really. (Regardless of whether Tracey was 'meant' to leave. Who knows if they the decision to bring Brock back wasn't just a last minute thing after the backlash they recieved from him being booted out.)

V Faction
9th March 2006, 4:20 PM
Oh crap. Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap.

[Braces for wave of May fanboys.... and CyberCubed]

Please guys, go easy on Brock. The poor chap doesn't have it easy any longer. He's merely the puppet at the end of the writers' cruel strings. Enjoy your victory--I won' try to stop that--but at least give Brock a humble pat on the back.

Eevee: Dig? Was that one of the attacks that was being thrown around before? There were so many, I wouldn't doubt it.

Marshtomp: Protect. I wonder how they'll screw this animation up.

Alfonso
9th March 2006, 4:24 PM
V, he deserves more than a pat on the back. He broke out of his currently cruddy, useless shell to go up against May, a character currently seen as more 'important' then he. (Especially so, considering that according to a cast list on the magazine/site/whatever where all the latest summeries are coming from, he isn't even on there. Yet Pikachu is. ._.)

He just broke out at the wrong time, and at the wrong place. The Contests are May's part of the story, and having another character in there seems rather like a token gesture. :/ Brock should have had his OWN episode, like I said before.

Maybe helping Roxanne breed her Geodude and Nosepass. :< I don't know.

Gravy
9th March 2006, 4:26 PM
I wonder how they'll screw this animation up.
My guess? His mommy comes in and blocks Eevee's attack with a rolling pin.
"No little upstart is going to hurt my little Marshy-warshy!"

Protect gets big 'meh' from me. Though I suppose thats how they got round Marshtomp's weakness of having zero physical attacks.

Yay for Dig. Truth be told, I'm a sucker for that move. Maybe this will give Ash's brain cell(s) a kick start and help him to remember that ......... he needs a snack. Pronto.

Alfonso
9th March 2006, 6:39 PM
Well, we know pretty much what we all wanted and needed to know about this episode, the victor and what new moves have been used/learned... so I might as well close this.

Joe has posted up a Episode Discussion thread for this episode anyway, so discussion might as well go there.