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View Full Version : What constitutes a "canon" ship?



Ampris
25th June 2006, 2:38 PM
Just as the title says. I've been wondering about this for a while and thought I should ask. Do both parties have to openly say they're in love, or are there other criteria to be met? Does it always necessarily end in marriage and other, er, stuff? Or maybe it varies from relationship to relationship and depends on the characters personalites, I don't know. I guess the main thing I'm wondering is if there's one universal answer to the question of canonicity, and if so what is it.
Care to discuss?

Griff
25th June 2006, 3:24 PM
A "canon" ship is generally defined as one which is explicitly stated within canon, i.e. within the actual anime, manga, show, etc. For example, in Gravitation, Yuki x Shuichi is a canon ship. One might also consider a ship not explicitly stated but with lots of proof within the anime, etc., as canon. For example, your Rocketshipping might be considered canon.

Raevell
25th June 2006, 3:45 PM
My personal opinion is it isn't canon until we get a confession either to one another or within a characters head. If a character says, "I think I love so and so," then I think it's pretty canon, their feelings. Or if the characters kiss, that usually seals the deal if it was mutual.

Other stuff I just brush off as the characters having a crush. But everyone's opinions are different concerning this. Some swear all you need is heavy blushing and it's canon.

So my opinion; YukixShuichi from Gravitation is canon. Something like YukixToru from Fruits Basket, though heavily hinted at, is not a canon pairing. They haven't confessed to anything yet though they're fond of each other.

Tropical Spirit
25th June 2006, 4:30 PM
I agree with Raevell. I dislike when people say Contestshipping, Pokeshipping or the hell are canon. They might be hinted at, but they aren't canon. Canon for me is when the characters actaully act their feelings out, or so to say. XD Like random passionate kisses or "wtf-sh" confessions.

cold_katanagirl
25th June 2006, 4:44 PM
Saying a ship is canon only when both people admit they like each other or kiss is a little over the top. There ARE relationships where the characters don't admit they love each other to the other person directly (Inuyasha/Kagome), but it's canon anyway because it's so heavily implied. You don't really need characters to think "I love you" or confess to be able to tell they like someone in most cases.

But the problem with saying your ship is canon because of random hints in the series is everyone thinks their ship in particular is being hinted at. :/

Tropical Spirit
25th June 2006, 5:08 PM
But the problem with saying your ship is canon because of random hints in the series is everyone thinks their ship in particular is being hinted at. :/
Exactly. I go with what I said because everyone screams "OMG HINT ITS CANON!" at anything... and I mean anything.

...I guess a better definition would be if the writer supported it, but then again, how would you know that? :\

intergalactic platypus
25th June 2006, 5:49 PM
Canon is if you absolutely can't rationally deny that the ship exists because whatever evidence for it is too strong to be refuted. Inyuasha and Kagome, Yuki and Suichi (<3), hell even Frodo and Sam (kidding) are all 100% factual and no one in their right mind can say these ships don't exist in the story

Jo-Jo
25th June 2006, 6:09 PM
I'd say a ship's canon if it exists in the source material. If the writers are consciously hinting towards a ship, then it's canon. Of course, everyone disagrees over which ships they're hinting at. *g* I maintain it's never really that difficult to figure it out if you look at a series objectively, though.

Faerie
25th June 2006, 8:05 PM
I personally think that a couple/threesome/foursome/etc. becomes canon when it is either hinted at to a massive extent or when the characters are actually known to have a crush on each other or be in love, one-sided or otherwise. If it's hinted at slightly, or if something happens that may or may not be a hint, then it's not canon.

Now, when I say 'hinted at to a massive extent', I mean when the characters are flirting with each other, they like each other but haven't confessed yet, or that they act like they're in love. Like cold_kanatagirl said, a ship doesn't have to be admitted between the characters for it to be canon. It could be canon for any of the above reasons, but sometimes people deny ships when the characters haven't admitted it yet; in my experience, this is usually because they don't like the pairing.

I personally like to support fanon ships rather than canon. Sometimes canon is nice, but fanon is fun because you can imagine however you'd like it to turn out. x3

STJ
25th June 2006, 10:53 PM
In my opinion, a ship is canon when the writers have made it abundentely clear that there a feelings, unrequited or not.

Of course, I suppose my veiws change on what that means from ship to ship. I mean, flirting and blushing and denials are great and all, but if that's all there is, well, let's just say that there has to be MORE for a relationship to take place, and by that I mean a confession of some sort. Basically, 'hints' are only as important and significant as the result they cause

There are a couple of times that a shp has been hinted at, which eventually went nowhere. Tai/Sora is a good enough example, Joey/Mai another, as well as Ichigo/Ryou *sigh* and T.K/Kairi

Course, in shoen anime, crushes are common enough (though to be honest, some of them I have found to be very, VERY weak), but it seems that romance isin't a large part, and so the writers don't actually bother going anywhere with it.

I don't thinik I have a clear-cut view on this, so yeah

Hakajin
26th June 2006, 5:15 AM
I agree with Jo-Jo, whatever the writers intend is canon. The tricky part is trying to figure out what they're thinking.

Steffrox
26th June 2006, 9:29 AM
hmm i dunno, i'd recon anything really hinted at should be considered canon.
Contestshipping
Rocketshipping
when you put them in comparison with
Cookie shipping
Needle shipping
the latter of the two are muchhhhhh less likely to happen but people still ship them.

Cos i wondered after seeing the last Tenchi movie, are Ryoko and Tenchi canon, cos its really really really hinted at?

Toran Frostbite
26th June 2006, 1:25 PM
Canon is tricky. It really does depend on the objective of the writers' and accurately deciphering the future of two people.

Normally, a love story can be accurately depict by the role the main characters are placed in. Inuyasha's easy. The main heroine and hero were tossed together straight off, combing out the love-hate dynamic first thing between them. That's like giving the canon away. Regardless if Kagome winds up having to go back to the present and Inuyasha the feudal era, they were bound to be canon at some point since episode one.

Pokemon is not the same. Pokemon has the same formula as Harry Potter: two dudes and a chick whose future relationships weren't ultimately cemented for six years and since the start, they've met all sorts of people, branched out beyond their three, and so on. And it was only at book six did our little trio make the hook-ups Rowling was going for since...who knows when (and might I add it was done rather poorly).

Pokemon needs direct confirmation. No amount of hints for any couple make it canon until we get some hand-holding, flowery-background, gaze-deep-into-my-eyes scene between two characters. Because NOTHING HAS HAPPENED ROMANTICALLY in that show to show otherwise. Not to mention with the changes the group's line-up has gone through, it's impossible to judge what the writers' want at all from the characters, because they have given you nothing solid to stand on. No foreshadowing of the future, nothing definite in the present, because frankly? The writers' are in fact flying by the seat of their pants just trying to keep the show alive; I doubt they even know how the show will end.

Unless they're married, obviously and over-exagerately in love, or given Romeo/Juliet traits (West Side Story references count), they are by no means canon. At all. That's just the formula the show operates by.

STJ
26th June 2006, 1:49 PM
Thanks Toraphi. That's exactly how I feel about ships and canon in Pokemon.. you were just able to say it better than I could XD

Jo-Jo
26th June 2006, 3:03 PM
Slight OT-ness: on the Harry Potter front, JKR's said she had the final pairings planned ever since the beginning, and that she first made Ron/Hermione noticable in book 3, and blatant beyond all doubt in book 4. I'm not sure when Harry/Ginny was supposed to be obvious. I'd guess book 5 for noticable and book 6, nach, for blatant. Several fandomers had both pairings twigged ever since they read the first book, though (I wasn't one of them ^^; )

I think that the ships in Pokemon have been handled quite similarly to the ships in HP, although there's a lot more, errrr, adult-ish stuff in HP. In both cases, the ships were built up very gradually and for a long time nothing happened between any of the main pairings in terms of kissing, dating, whatever - in fact, Ron and Hermione still haven't got it together. With Pokemon it's the same kind of thing; we get hints but no hookups. The hints got pretty blatant, though, in both series, IMO.

Just out of interest, what was so badly-written about Ron/Hermione?

Toran Frostbite
26th June 2006, 4:42 PM
Just out of interest, what was so badly-written about Ron/Hermione?
Nothing. Ron/Hermione was fine. I was refering to Harry/Ginny without saying as much.

And hints don't equal canon here. Hints equal possible direction. It's not the be-all end-all and with Rowling, yes, she had intention. Where's the intention for Pokemon?

Jo-Jo
26th June 2006, 5:31 PM
Well, at the moment, most people agree that they're writing Contestshipping. That may change some day, but for now, I'd call that ship canon. The Pokemon writers haven't stated outright which ships they're writing, but they've never stated anything outright about the show, and that doesn't make us incapable of inferring what they're doing. Similarly, most people had Ron/Hermione at the least figured out before the Interview of Doom.

ShadowCloud62
26th June 2006, 6:28 PM
Well, at the moment, most people agree that they're writing Contestshipping. That may change some day, but for now, I'd call that ship canon. The Pokemon writers haven't stated outright which ships they're writing, but they've never stated anything outright about the show, and that doesn't make us incapable of inferring what they're doing. Similarly, most people had Ron/Hermione at the least figured out before the Interview of Doom.

Agreed. Canon is a tricky thing, and prime examples of canon, YukixShuichi (Gravitation), and InuyashaxKagome (Inuyasha). May/Drew may be canon, but I'm not saying anything, as I don't support any Pokemon ships like a rabid shipper. I'm more of a casual shipper in Pokemon.

In the FMA manga, Ed/Win is somewhat canon, because Winry has admitted to herself that she is in love with Ed.

...Wait, is Miroku/Sango considered canon?

cold_katanagirl
26th June 2006, 6:31 PM
...Wait, is Miroku/Sango considered canon?Miroku proposed to her, and she accepted. I can't remember what episode/chapter it is though.

And it was considered canon long before that anyway.

Toran Frostbite
26th June 2006, 6:51 PM
Well, at the moment, most people agree that they're writing Contestshipping. That may change some day, but for now, I'd call that ship canon. The Pokemon writers haven't stated outright which ships they're writing, but they've never stated anything outright about the show, and that doesn't make us incapable of inferring what they're doing. Similarly, most people had Ron/Hermione at the least figured out before the Interview of Doom.

And all the rest of them were so darn sure it'd be Harry/Hermione. I don't see what your point is. Pokemon isn't subtle anyway, so a 'ship should not be considered canon until it's rubbed in your face. All the hints they toss your way, interpretation or not, make not the couple fact; it makes it a possibility only. Because if it does change, y'all who did say, with a passion, deeply convinced of it's canon-ness, "Well it would have been!" and would then be saying, "Well it was!" and that's just ignorant.

Pokemon shares a formula with Harry Potter, but it doesn't share specifics. Everyone there grows up, book by book. Everyone here? Not so much.

Steffrox
26th June 2006, 7:00 PM
Nah Ron and Hermione (i don't ship them by the way) was painfully obviously canon from the very first book. I just think Harry/hermione shippers (the insane ones anyway) missed the point and didn't really understand what the book actually said, Classic case off look to much into something. Like the people who say Kojiro/James is gay when he's not, a bit feminine yeah and some jokes that are just jokes, like i think is it pokemopolis goes on and on about it. its just a case of miss reading or looking too deeply for things.
a good candidate for a canon ship should be at least noticable,
but then again its good fun shipping random stuff, but mostlikely never gunna be canon

cold_katanagirl
26th June 2006, 7:52 PM
Nah Ron and Hermione (i don't ship them by the way) was painfully obviously canon from the very first book.To you and certain others it was painfully obvious. That doesn't make people who didn't see it or saw something else morons.

Jo-Jo
26th June 2006, 8:05 PM
^ Yeah, I wouldn't call it painfully obvious until book 4.


And all the rest of them were so darn sure it'd be Harry/Hermione.
Only about 10-20%. And the author herself narrowly skated around calling them delusional. ;)


I don't see what your point is. Pokemon isn't subtle anyway, so a 'ship should not be considered canon until it's rubbed in your face.
You don't think Contestshipping's been rubbed in our faces? "You two on a beach, how romantic!" "*BLUSH* He's just a friend!", etc. Even Advanceshippers acknowledge the ship as canon.


Because if it does change, y'all who did say, with a passion, deeply convinced of it's canon-ness, "Well it would have been!" and would then be saying, "Well it was!" and that's just ignorant.
If it does change, it'll be 'former canon' rather than 'current canon'. It won't make much difference to the outlooks of the Contestshippers. Most of us openly expect Drew to get written out at some point anyway.

Steffrox
26th June 2006, 11:44 PM
To you and certain others it was painfully obvious. That doesn't make people who didn't see it or saw something else morons.


I didn't say i thought they were morons! i wouldn't be so rude!! i was just saying i thought it was implied.
its fine to like other ships, great if anything shows you think outside the box.
I mean i used to be a gymshipper, there are hardly any hints but it was just fun, doesn't make it canon, thats what i was saying. sorry if i offended cos that wasn't my intention