Standard Rules - Learn them

[Volteon]

Below there are the most used rules used here in the forum.


When you just say Standard rules, you're immediately agreeing with them when opening a thread.

Sleep Clause
You can't use sleep inducing moves in opponent's Pokémon when there's another Pokémon in his/her team asleep. Yawn can't be used to PseudoHaze (make opponent switch) when there's another Pokémon asleep caused by you. When the asleep Pokémon awakes or faints, you're free to make another Pokémon of his/her team asleep. Sleeping being caused by Effect Spore or Rest are disconsidered from Sleep Clause.

Species Clause
You can't use two of the same Pokémon in a team.

Evasion Clause
You can't use moves that increases your evasion. Avoid the use of Acupressure, it has 1/7 chance to double your evasion.

OHKO Clause
You are strictly prohibited of using OHKO moves. They are Guillotine, Horn Drill, Fissure and Sheer Cold.

No Hacks
Don't need to explain, you are prohibited to use any illegally obtained Pokémon. Hacking parents to breed is also unaccepted, but people can't control this just looking at the stats. Hacking Pokémon with "legit stats" is also not allowed.

No Ubers
Uber Pokémon are overpowered Pokémon. Since these are "Standard Rules" you have to use the "Standard Pokémon".
The current uber list:
Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias (With Soul Dew)
Latios
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Shaymin-S
Wobbuffet


***Note: In Standard Uber Battles, these Pokemon are allowed. In UU/NU battles, only Pokemon in the specific tier (http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/) and below are allowed. This means you can use NU Pokemon on a UU team, but not UU Pokemon on a NU team. All other clauses are the same for a Standard battle that uses a different tier.

No Hax Items
These are all the items that relies on luck to activate. These items are:
Brightpowder, Focus Band, King's Rock, Lax Incense, Quick Claw, Razor Fang, Razor Claw, Scope Lens, Lansat Berry, Stick and Lucky Punch. Note: Scope Lens, Razor Claw and Stick are hax items, but they are the only ones allowed in competitive play, as they just increase the odds of something that can already happen.



No Disconnecting
You can't turn off your DS or move away from signal range to end a battle. People can have weak routers so don't always fight with the people if he/she disconnected. Not exactly a rule, but an ethic sense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~



These are the rules that most people play, and below there're unusual rules usually applied, but it's outside of Standard:

Self KO - NOT STANDARD!
You can't use Destiny Bond, Perish Song, Selfdestruct or Explosion to force a tie. People usually dislike the fact he/she lost the last Pokémon in a battle, the rule exists, but it's rarely added as standard since it's also a strategy.

Item Clause - NOT STANDARD!
Two Pokémon can't hold same items. Using Trick/Switcheroo in a Pokémon and receiving/getting an item that other Pokémon in your team has doesn't break the clause.

Freeze Clause - NOT STANDARD!
Pokémon can't Freeze two Pokémon at once.

Entry Hazards Clause - NOT STANDARD!
The use of entry hazards such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes is forbidden.


Note: This clause is standard in battle simulators, since if one Pokémon is frost, the program can just ignore the freezing chance the attack has. But it's definitely not standard since we never know if an attack is going to freeze.

No Weather - NOT STANDARD!
It avoids the use of Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow. Just because the battles slow down because of Sandstorm/Hail damage and leftovers recovery every turn.

No SkarmBliss - NOT STANDARD!
A dumb rule created by someone unknown that didn't have skills to handle Skarmory and Blissey used in the same team. Definately not standard, but it's there... Also the combination of these aren't as effective as it was in Advance.

No Legendaries - NOT STANDARD!
Another rule that avoids the use of Pokémon. The allowed legendaries are as strong as any OverUsed Pokémon, so they're completely fine in the standard play. BUT some people dislike them and decided to block all the legendaries. There's the Uber list to block the unfair legendaries (And Wobbuffet).

No Baton Pass chains - NOT STANDARD!
Baton Pass chains are teams that uses a lot of Baton Pass Pokémon to get multiple boosts in a Pokémon.

No switching - DEFINATELY NOT STANDARD!
People who are weak at predicting or just thinks switching is a waste of time, use this rule. Good luck at finding someone who agrees with this rule.

Confusion Clause - NOT STANDARD!
No attacks that are sure to cause confusion can be used.

Everything Goes - NOT STANDARD!
Self explanatory - No rules applied.

Choice Clause - NOT STANDARD!
User can't use more than one Choice item in their teams (Choice Band, Choice Scarf and Choice Specs).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The list may seen big, but they're easy to remember.

These (the standard) are the main ones you'll use in any kind of battle, but we also have variations for the Standard battles, and they are:


Double Battle
Introduced in third generation, battle with four Pokémon in the arena, two from one side, two from opponent's. Very diferent style with a wider range of decisions you have to make in one turn.
IV Battle
While breeding, if you wanna know accurately your Pokémon's IVs, this is what you should do. Set a battle to level 100, write down the stats and calculate until you got the Pokémon you were looking for.
Roulette Battle
A battle that you use all your competitive Pokémon. First of all, you must be honest while doing a Roulette Battle (Actually, you should in all battles, but this gets special care). Before asking/answering to a Roulette Battle you should organize all your competitive Pokémon in your box(es) in a random order, but without spaces, both battlers count how many Pokémon they have and the player randomly chooses six numbers from the total his opponent said. The number corresponds to the position the Pokémon is in the box and the player has to use those Pokémon in the battle, the first number your opponent wrote also corresponds to the first Pokémon you'll send in the battle. Then it's just a standard battle! Meaning you can't bring Uber Pokémon, you can't use hax items, you can't sleep two opponent's Pokémon, all standard rules include, unless your opponent says his own rules.
UU Battle
Again, a simple standard battle, but not only Uber Pokémon are excluded, OU and BL Pokémon also are banned in rule number 6.
Monotype Battle
Another variation from a standard battle. Your entire team must have one type in common among all Pokémon. Double types are allowed, the only thing required is that one of the Pokémon's type has to match with the rest of the team's type.
Everything goes battle
A battle people who are not into the competitive play use. It means that no rules are applied, hence, everything is allowed.


Done! If there are more rules that I forgot, then sorry, post them here and I'll add it. Any doubts about the rules, just post here and we may help you.

[super groudon]

on the hax items list i believe shed shell is a hax item, volteon.

[Blazios]

Very nice.

This should help all the newbies that keep on asking about Clauses and the like.

[PokeProMaster]

I believe Self OHKO is not part of the standard rules....

I may be wrong but i dont think i am.

Good Job However Volteon ;) this should be stickied!

EDIT: Also another rule which is NOT listed and is NOT standard is the switching clause which few people play with. its where no one can switch out by switching or baton passing etc. Te only way to change is when a pokemon faints or if you get roared/whirlwinded out

[pokedude001]

is anybody online im ready

[Blazios]

is anybody online im ready

Make your own thread.


And I agree with PokeProMaster, this should be stickified.

[Volteon]

I don't think Shed Shell is a hax item. It just makes you free from trapping moves/abilities, no odds related.

I never saw people writing self KO in their threads, so I'm taking it off from standard. And this "No switching" is not a rule, it's pure evilness O_o Well, I'm adding it! Keep commenting.

[PokeProMaster]

I don't think Shed Shell is a hax item. It just makes you free from trapping moves/abilities, no odds related.

I never saw people writing self KO in their threads, so I'm taking it off from standard. And this "No switching" is not a rule, it's pure evilness O_o Well, I'm adding it! Keep commenting.

Yeah no switching is evil but ive seen people play with it on youtube its just really rare. But if it is made up, then so is the skarm/bliss rule surely!!!!

Skarm/bliss would never be banned from Nintendo Tourneys...

[Bert]

Lol SkarmBliss is useless anyhow :p. With MixApe lurkign around everywhere.
Nicely done Volteon, you might want to add the dumbest rule ever, imo. 'legends clause'.

[PokeProMaster]

hehe, also what about this rule:

'Freeze Clause' - I just crack up when i see people put this... When i joined marriland a lot of people posted this clause... i mean how is it possible to use a freeze clause!! ban ice beam, blizzard etc etc lol.

[The Shadow Trainer]

Is Scope Lens a Hax Item? Weird that they tell on Smogon to give Absol a Scope Lens then...

[Bert]

Freeze Clause lol, yeah. Banning Tri Attacks and all Ice Moves that may induce freeze is as close as you can get to freeze close. But that'd be dumbest thing ever. There's no way stopping chomp when 'psuedo-freeze clause' is enabled.

[Volteon]

I actually thought about Freeze Clause. But since it's impossible to keep track in Wi-fi I decided to skip it. BTW, Freeze Clause is like Sleep Clause but for freezing. NetBattle can do this since if there's a Pokémon frost, it can just ignore the freeze percentage.

O_o how could I forget the Legend thing!?

EDIT: Well, I suppose Scope lens and all the others who increase Crit.Hit odds are hax items, since it relies on percentages to activate, like al the others. Well, thinking deeper now, all moves can Critical Hit, unlike King's Rock that can make an unflinchable move ....flinchable O.o Makes sense. I'll get more info about it then I'll see what I can do.

[The Shadow Trainer]

hehe, also what about this rule:

'Freeze Clause' - I just crack up when i see people put this... When i joined marriland a lot of people posted this clause... i mean how is it possible to use a freeze clause!! ban ice beam, blizzard etc etc lol.

lol, with Freeze Clause are Dragons unstopable!

[DrunkenSniper]

Volteon, I didn't know you were a Netbattler. <3

Anyway, yeah. Add no legends to the non-standard, and IMO make no legends and no SkarmBliss to Definately not standard. <_>

[The Shadow Trainer]

EDIT: Well, I suppose Scope lens and all the others who increase Crit.Hit odds are hax items, since it relies on percentages to activate, like al the others. Well, thinking deeper now, all moves can Critical Hit, unlike King's Rock that can make an unflinchable move ....flinchable O.o Makes sense. I'll get more info about it then I'll see what I can do.

But then you also need to ban high critical moves and flinch moves and that's weird.

[DrunkenSniper]

Flinch Moves and High crit moves are fine. Just not items, since they boost move that don't, too. At least, I think that's part of it.

[The Shadow Trainer]

Flinch Moves and High crit moves are fine. Just not items, since they boost move that don't, too. At least, I think that's part of it.

I dont think its a hax item, i think the only hax items that are inflicting something, like Brightpowder, Lax Incese for Accurrey, Quick Claw for Speed, Kings Rock and stuff for flinch, Focus Band for surviving but Crititical Hit dont matter that much, like Volteon said: Every attack can be Critical Hit.

[The Light Ruler]

I would agree to removing Scope Lense and Razor Claw from the hax items list. According to Smogon, a Pokemon with Scope Lense has the same chance of landing a critical hit as Super Luck Absol does with Sucker Punch and Sceptile does with Leaf Blade. On the other hand, the Lansat berry and Focus Energy increase the user's chances of landing a critical hit by twice that of Scope Lense.

[The Shadow Trainer]

I would agree to removing Scope Lense and Razor Claw from the hax items list. According to Smogon, a Pokemon with Scope Lense has the same chance of landing a critical hit as Super Luck Absol does with Sucker Punch and Sceptile does with Leaf Blade. On the other hand, the Lansat berry and Focus Energy increase the user's chances of landing a critical hit by twice that of Scope Lense.

But Focus Energy is a attack and for Lansat Berry you need to lose HP. So you need to do something before it activates so you cant ban that.

[super groudon]

hax items are anything that isn't 100% certain that the effect will occur.

so leave them on there.

berries that boost stats when HP is down are ok.

[Volteon]

I have to agree with above poster.
Surf wasn't made to have Leaf Blade's Critical Hit chance just like Shadow Ball wasn't made to miss or High Jump Kick wasn't made to flinch.

I've PMed SkittyOnWailord to sticky this thread. I hope he comes online soon. He's not on since december 3rd. Well, I don't wanna bother mods a lot, but if he doesn't comes, I'll PM another mod/admin.

[aipomkong]

Self KO is a standard clause while Hax Items clausing isn't standard.

Hax Items aren't actually banned, they are perfectly fine, even on competiitve simulators like NetBattle / Shoddy. It's just that they are frowned upon for forcing more luck then is originally in the game.

Evasion clauses isn't standard either, but no-one half decent / self respecting would bother with evasion.

[phantom1113]

this helps alot thanks volteon, planning on having my first wifi battle this afternoon so ty again

[Bert]

It should be noted that items such as Scope Lens are eprfectly fine on a pokémon that takes extra advantage of it, such as Absol with super luck.

[The Shadow Trainer]

And Scope Lens and Sniper, it that ok too then?

Btw, i met a person on Wifi who wanted to battle with Confusion Clause, no moves that can cause confusion like Supersonic, Confuse Ray, Confusion etc., maybe you can add that.

[Volteon]

Hax items and Evasion are standard, not everyone respects other people. Have you ever faced someone with Dusknoir using Double team? AAce (The only used 100% hit move that hurts it) barely scratches it and Pressure consumes a lot of PP. Well, I did face one, in my second Wi-Fi battle... bad past.

And I'll make a separate note about Scope Lens since it seems that's the only accepted Hax item.

Confusion Clause is interesting, I'm adding in the non standard. I think it also blocks DynamichPunch No Guard Machamp.

[The Shadow Trainer]

Nah, i faced a Double Team Garchomp in Sandstorm. Thát one is really deadly!

[DrunkenSniper]

Confusion clause? That'd ruin Lanturn. ;_;

Seriously, you can just switch out of confusion anyway. >_>

But I see what you mean though, with the 50% chance and all.

[PokeProMaster]

Confusion clause :o, no way should that be added.... you cant possible stop moves like dynmaic punch or confusion and they are RARELY used anyway...

[Volteon]

Added Confusion and the note about Scope Lens.
also bumping trying to keep it in the first page for some mod read it ...

[SkittyOnWailord]

Two things I would like to point out about the clauses.

1) Evasion Clause only applies to moves like Double Team that raise your evasion. Sand Attack and other moves that make the opponents evasion decrese are still ok.

2) Self KO - NOT STANDARD should also have Perish Song listed.

[Volteon]

Oh yeah, Perish Song, thanks! and I don't know what I thought about adding Sand Attack and the like in Evasion clause >_> Thanks for pointing

[unown?]

if focus band is a hax item, why is focus sash not included? they basically do the same thing...

[Volteon]

Focus Sash doesn't rely in luck to activate. It just activates if user has full HP, any Spike damage you get, you have an wasted item, and when it's activated, you lose the item.
Focus Band in the other hand relies in luck to activate and can activate even if you have 1 HP, multiple times.

[thekoalaz]

This should seriously go up as a sticky~

[spawngod316]

In the ways of items, quick claw should clearly be on the Hax item list! 20% chance that the slower pokemon will go first, and that can immensely swing a fight.

[Volteon]

Humm Quick Claw was already listed =P
Quick Claw is one of the cheapest items btw...

Well, just reposting for someone to see the thread and fortunately sticky it...
If it doesn't deserve be stickied, then I need a reason ;D
Seems many people don't understand the rules...

[spawngod316]

I vote for stickied! Only because I faced someone with a quick claw Monday, and i wasn't very happy, because my Tauros (that had a substitute out) SHOULD have defeated his Medichamp, but of course, it went the other way around!

[Brettt]

Excuse me if this has already been discussed, but what is the use of banning hax items? Aren't they as much of a strategy as a freezing after ice beam, or, a paralysis after Tbolt? I mean, all those rely on luck, I would think a strategy completely dependent on luck falls to a strategy that is without luck items.

Sorry again if this has already been asked, I was too lazy to read through previous posts.

[Blazios]

Excuse me if this has already been discussed, but what is the use of banning hax items? Aren't they as much of a strategy as a freezing after ice beam, or, a paralysis after Tbolt? I mean, all those rely on luck, I would think a strategy completely dependent on luck falls to a strategy that is without luck items.

Sorry again if this has already been asked, I was too lazy to read through previous posts.

It's pretty much so that people don't have any excuse to moan "OMGZORS U CHEATZ! I WUD WON IF U DIDN'T HAV KINGZ ROCK!"

i.e. It because people who think that the game should be entirely strategy didn't like the luck involved.

Of course, I've always wondered why Wide Lens and Zoom lens aren't considered Hax items.

[Brettt]

It's pretty much so that people don't have any excuse to moan "OMGZORS U CHEATZ! I WUD WON IF U DIDN'T HAV KINGZ ROCK!"

Meh, usually my quick claw fails anyway, I'll avoid the rule where enforced =P

[Volteon]

So why make the game even more luck based?
We have already a lot of luck factors, making them in the form of items just make it worse...
And I don't think you ever battled in Emerald's battle tower and faced one of these Rhydons with Focus Band/Brightpowder...

EDIT: Beaten by one minute...

[spawngod316]

People don't like that kind of chance. yeah, the moves have a chance of an effect, but hardly any are groundbreaking. Yeah, a paralyze from a thunderbolt is annoying, and can affect a match, but the probability of that happening for most effects of moves are not too high, and again, the impact the items can make are huge!
Like I stated in the previous post, thanks to the quick claw, instead of me defeating his Medichamp without me taking damage (because of substitute from last pokemon faced), he got 2 quick claws, and defeated it, which wasn't supposed to happen, AT ALL!
Focus Band has a random chance of the pokemon surviving to one. Again, it's a big luck factor that doesn't affect the match a little bit, but can completely swing the battle towards another direction. Also, it IS possible for the person to survive TWICE from a focus band, and once, it happened to me THREE times in a row!

This is why the double team strategies and OHKO's are not normally allowed; it's too much chance to completely swing a match towards another direction. It isn't an addition effect that can cause a negative status; they are effects that instantly (that's a key word there) swing the fight towards the person using these items and strategies.

[Blazios]

So why make the game even more luck based?
We have already a lot of luck factors, making them in the form of items just make it worse...
And I don't think you ever battled in Emerald's battle tower and faced one of these Rhydons with Focus Band/Brightpowder...

EDIT: Beaten by one minute...

Well that's just Battle Tower General Hax. Like Sheer Cold having 99% accuracy.

[Volteon]

Yeah, I'm aware that battle tower and the like have higher luck, Nintendo confirmed that, but the BrightPowder example can happen somehow.
Like in a battle yesterday, I got Critical hitted and Frost, then in the other turn, Frost by the same move, this means - 6%*10%*10% = 0.06%

[Blazios]

Yeah, I'm aware that battle tower and the like have higher luck, Nintendo confirmed that, but the BrightPowder example can happen somehow.

They CONFIRMED it?

I know it can happen though.

[spawngod316]

It's pretty much so that people don't have any excuse to moan "OMGZORS U CHEATZ! I WUD WON IF U DIDN'T HAV KINGZ ROCK!"

Of course, I've always wondered why Wide Lens and Zoom lens aren't considered Hax items.

Zoom lens DOES increase the critical-hit ratio, but it has a drawback; the holder has to be slower than the foe. So not everyone can use it effectively, unlike scope lens which does the same thing to ANY pokemon.

But wide lens isn't hax, because it increases accuracy of moves by 10%. It limits how much luck you would have to have to get moves off; you can actually use it as a strategy. For example, I have a Ninetails with Hypnosis and Fire Blast. I know the importance of Hypnosis hitting and Fire Blast's power. So I always have the wide lens on it to increase it's Hypnosis accuracy to 77% and Fire Blast to 93.5%. That's a significant difference.

[Brettt]

Ah, okay. Usually for me it was just a little quick claw on medicham and magmortar, because they should be faster than they are, but I got lazy in EV training. =P But I'll abide by the rule where placed.

[Volteon]

I actually forgot to reply to this =P

Of course, I've always wondered why Wide Lens and Zoom lens aren't considered Hax items.
spawngod already answered, so just adding:
It's like Scope Lens, the Wide/Zoom lens Pokémon can hit with or without the item, the use of it just gives a little kick to make it more accurate.
It's not like King's Rock, the item makes a huge list of moves flinchable, when it's not suposed to.

EDIT:
Good, stickied, thanks!

[phantom1113]

cool since when did this got stickied??

[livedarkrai07]

cooooooooool

[spawngod316]

Sweet, this got stickied! Thank you!

[POKEMANIACOFTHEYEARPIPLUP]

Below there're the most used rules used here in the forum.
When you just say Standard rules, you're immediately agreeing with them when opening a thread.

Sleep ClauseYou can't use sleep inducing moves in opponent's Pokémon when there's another Pokémon in his/her team asleep. Yawn can't be used to PseudoHaze (make opponent switch) when there's another Pokémon asleep caused by you. When the asleep Pokémon awakes or faints, you're free to make another Pokémon of his/her team asleep. Sleeping being caused by Effect Spore or Rest are disconsidered from Sleep Clause.

Species ClauseYou can't use two of the same Pokémon in a team.

Evasion ClauseYou can't use moves that increases your evasion. Avoid the use of Accupressure, it has 1/7 chance to double your evasion.

OHKO ClauseYou are strictly prohibited of using OHKO moves. They are Guillotine, Horn Drill, Fissure and Sheer Cold.

No HacksDon't need to explain, you are prohibited to use any ilegally obtained Pokémon. Hacking parents to breed is also unaccepted, but people can't control this just looking at the stats.

No UbersUber Pokémon are overpowered Pokémon. Since these are "Standard Rules" you have to use the "Standard Pokémon". Click here for a list of Uber Pokémon (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=290045)

No Hax ItemsThese are all the items that relies on luck to activate. These items are:
Brightpowder, Focus Band, King's Rock, Lax Incense, Quick Claw, Razor Claw, Razor Fang and Scope Lens. (Tell me if I missed some).
Note: Scope Lens and Razor Claw are considered Hax items, but they are the only one that is accepted normally in Wi-Fi.

No DisconnectingYou can't turn off your DS or move away from signal range to end a battle. People can have weak routers so don't always fight with the people if he/she disconnected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

These are the rules that most people play, and below there're unusual rules usually applied, but it's outside of Standard:

Self KO - NOT STANDARDYou can't use Destiny Bond, Perish Song, Selfdestruct or Explosion to force a tie. People usually dislike the fact he/she lost the last Pokémon in a battle, the rule exists, but it's rarely added as standard since it's also a strategy.

Item Clause - NOT STANDARDTwo Pokémon can't hold same items. Using Trick/Switcheroo in a Pokémon and receiving/getting an item that other Pokémon in your team has doesn't break the clause.

Freeze Clause - NOT STANDARDPokémon can't Freeze two Pokémon at once.
Note: This clause is standard in battle simulators, since if one Pokémon is frost, the program can just ignore the freezing chance the attack has. But it's definately not standard since we never know if an attack is going to freeze.

No Weather - NOT STANDARDIt avoids the use of Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow. Just because the battles slow down because of Sandstorm/Hail damage and leftovers recovery every turn.

No SkarmBliss - NOT STANDARDA dumb rule created by someone unknown that didn't have skills to handle Skarmory and Blissey used in the same team. Definately not standard, but it's there... Also the combination of these aren't as effective as it was in Advance.

No Legendaries - NOT STANDARDAnother rule that avoids the use of Pokémon. The allowed legendaries are as strong as any OverUsed Pokémon, so they're completely fine in the standard play. BUT some people dislike them and decided to block all the legendaries. There's the Uber list to block the unfair legendaries (And Wobbuffet).

No Baton Pass chains - NOT STANDARDBaton Pass chains are teams that uses a lot of Baton Pass Pokémon to get multiple boosts in a Pokémon.

No switching - DEFINATELY NOT STANDARDPeople who are weak at predicting or just thinks switching is a waste of time, use this rule. Good luck at finding someone who agrees with this rule.

Confusion Clause - NOT STANDARDNo attacks that are sure to cause confusion can be used.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The list may seen big, but they're easy to remember.

Done! If there're more rules that I forgot, then sorry, post them here and I'll add it. Any doubts about the rules, just post here and we may help you.

Except for no hacks, I don't support any of these rules. Mass hypnosis or Double Team are plans too, so people should play however they like without limitations to strategy, though No Ubers Clause is something people should agree on or disregard

And I REALLY don't get the point of No Disconnecting

It still won't stop or dicourage sore losers from disconnecting, and sometimes the connection is just bad or something comes up that causes one player to leave.

[PokeProMaster]

Except for no hacks, I don't support any of these rules. Mass hypnosis or Double Team are plans too, so people should play however they like without limitations to strategy, though No Ubers Clause is something people should agree on or disregard

And I REALLY don't get the point of No Disconnecting

It still won't stop or dicourage sore losers from disconnecting, and sometimes the connection is just bad or something comes up that causes one player to leave.

Well, i think Double team and sleep clause are standard rules and are even used in D/P Tourneys that have been held. Also, it is very rare you find two trainers agree on letting anything goes rules.... it becomes ALL LUCK when you allow attacks like hypnosis and double team.

No Skill, it becomes complete luck.

[POKEMANIACOFTHEYEARPIPLUP]

Not neccesarily true..... and I play anything goes.

[PokeProMaster]

Not neccesarily true..... and I play anything goes.

what is not neccesarily true with what i posted ?

[blaziken33]

I let the Elite Association use evading moves and sleep moves. That is sorta strategy, because then that allows you to Dragon Dance away or whatever. But I see what you mean, after a few Double teams, even mostly acurate moves like Thunderbolt and Flamethrower rarely ever hit. And after a few Dragon Dances, the battle is really over, because most pokemon can't stand up to a boosted STAB hit or even un-STABbed ones.

[PokeProMaster]

I let the Elite Association use evading moves and sleep moves. That is sorta strategy, because then that allows you to Dragon Dance away or whatever. But I see what you mean, after a few Double teams, even mostly acurate moves like Thunderbolt and Flamethrower rarely ever hit. And after a few Dragon Dances, the battle is really over, because most pokemon can't stand up to a boosted STAB hit or even un-STABbed ones.

theres just one problem with sleep clause, and that is Breloom.

Once its got one pokemon asleep it can put your whole team to sleep, because it can hide behind sub, even when theres a pokemon faster than it, it can allow its sub to die and spore the opponent, then set up sub again and with its ability restore 1/8th of its HP every round it can be pretty much impossible to take down.

[Volteon]

theres just one problem with sleep clause, and that is Breloom.

Once its got one pokemon asleep it can put your whole team to sleep, because it can hide behind sub, even when theres a pokemon faster than it, it can allow its sub to die and spore the opponent, then set up sub again and with its ability restore 1/8th of its HP every round it can be pretty much impossible to take down.
And Smeargle >_<

and for POKEMANIACOFTHEYEARPIPLUP, this is not a "Use these rules or die" thread, these are the most used rules, and that's what most people agree. if you wanna use your own rules, feel free.

[Cuthrout]

May i ask if using the move Curse with a ghost pokemon or does that count as the killing self rule? it only takes off half hp each time used.

[Volteon]

May i ask if using the move Curse with a ghost pokemon or does that count as the killing self rule? it only takes off half hp each time used.
No, the effects happen in diferent times, if you faint, opponent won't. if opponent faints, your Curser will be alive, if opponent faints to Curse damage, your Curser will be alive, so uing it won't break Self KO clause.

[phantom1113]

does the confusuion clause include outrage and stuff?

[Blazios]

does the confusuion clause include outrage and stuff?

It does not.

[The Shadow Trainer]

does the confusuion clause include outrage and stuff?

No, Confusion Clause are only attacks that make your opponent confused.

[HAZARDOUS]

so whats this for, like a battle thread and


PS the shadow trainer im your tourney opponent( i belive)

[Lord_Sunday]

Should it perhaps be noted that since iirc NFE Pokemon that are not signifigantly different from their final evolutions fall into the same tier as their final evolution Wyanut is techicaly Uber. Not that many people will use it, but Shadow Tag could be reason enough for some.

[Volteon]

I think they're as effective as UU Pokémon (excluding Wynaut).
and as for NFE, I think they're more pratical just when the last evolved form has at least one diferent thing. Like Ivysaur vs Venusaur and Electabuzz vs Electivire.
Ivysaur has nothing that puts it above Venusaur, but Electabuzz has higher speed.
Yanma has Compoundeyes
Vigoroth has better ability
Trapinch can trap, while having the same attack as Flygon
Eevee can Adaptability (though I don't think that's pratical)
Shelgon has more defense than Salamence and doesn't have 4x weakness

and many other examples.
I also use Phione very well in UU battles, it's basically two UU mixed, Glalie and Dewgong.

[Nissan Returns]

Volteon, just a reminder, Destiny Bond is an OHKO move. If the opponent is first, you die regardless of life.

[Volteon]

You can't KO 6 Pokémon with Destiny Bond, and it's not based on luck, and also you need to sacrifice one Pokémon you have in order to KO opponent's.

And that's much different than Sheer Cold/Fissure/Horn Drill/Guillotine.

[Pimplup784]

Why would focus band be banned? It is pretty much the same as Focus Sash except you don't need full health and it is not 100% chance.

[Volteon]

Why would focus band be banned? It is pretty much the same as Focus Sash except you don't need full health and it is not 100% chance.
That's why it's banned =P It's not 100%. It is 10%, and the definition of hax items is this. The item that needs luck to activate. Also Focus Sash is one use. If someone gets lucky, a Focus Band can activate twice in a row or infinite times.

[Pimplup784]

That's why it's banned =P It's not 100%. It is 10%, and the definition of hax items is this. The item that needs luck to activate. Also Focus Sash is one use. If someone gets lucky, a Focus Band can activate twice in a row or infinite times.

Oh I see... I thought it was 1 use like focus sash. Well, I was proved wrong.

[SkittyOnWailord]

I had an interesting thing come up.(About sleep clause) What if one of your opponants Pokemon is asleep from one of your attacks, they send out another Pokemon with really good DEF. You then slowly run out of PP untill you only have the sleep indusing move left.
Since the only move you can use would put a 2nd Pokemon to sleep, what would happen?

[PokeProMaster]

I had an interesting thing come up.(About sleep clause) What if one of your opponants Pokemon is asleep from one of your attacks, they send out another Pokemon with really good DEF. You then slowly run out of PP untill you only have the sleep indusing move left.
Since the only move you can use would put a 2nd Pokemon to sleep, what would happen?

good thinking, however i dont think this would happen in most cases but would be possible if you happened to have a singing blissey or something and had a huge stall wall with another opponent.

I also thought this:

What happens if no pokemon on the battle field are asleep, one player sends in breloom with the Effect spore ability and your opponent attacks with a physical attack and gets effect spored and sleep is activated, does this count towards sleep clause or could breloom freely put another pokemon to sleep with spore while the pokemon that got effect spored asleep...

[fede125955]

it says it under sleep clause in the first page and no it doesnt count

[PokeProMaster]

oh lol, i never saw that and you answer it yesterday, but i just wanted to make sure... lol, i should check the first post before i ask something!

[fede125955]

im kind of new here so what does it mean that this post is sticky

[SkittyOnWailord]

good thinking, however i dont think this would happen in most cases but would be possible if you happened to have a singing blissey or something and had a huge stall wall with another opponent.


It almost happened to me a few days ago. My Gengar vs my opponants Suicune. My Gengar had already been out againsed a few Pokemon with Presure. I got down to 3PP on non-Hypnosis attacks.

im kind of new here so what does it mean that this post is sticky

Stickies should usualy be read before posting in a thread. They usualy contain important information/rules about that section of the site.

[Volteon]

I had an interesting thing come up.(About sleep clause) What if one of your opponants Pokemon is asleep from one of your attacks, they send out another Pokemon with really good DEF. You then slowly run out of PP untill you only have the sleep indusing move left.
Since the only move you can use would put a 2nd Pokemon to sleep, what would happen?
Nice, but when you have Hypnosis as your only attacking move, what you can do?
1- Switch
2- Attack

If you attack, you'll have to switch after that, because you want to KO opponent (I suppose), but because there's another asleep Pokémon, you will have to switch without attacking.
Now if you can't switch (being trapped by Mean Look or it's your last Pokémon) Sleeping the opponent is fine, since it'll force you to Struggle and after 4/5 uses of it, you'll be fainted.

[PokeProMaster]

Something should be cleared up, its confusing me and i bet lots of others battles and this is it:

many places are now allowing Deoxys Speed form to the OU tier and no is no more longer an Uber, so, im wondering here at serebii, what are we going to do about it, are we gonna let this pokemon into the OU tier?

[Volteon]

Yeah, I, myself, disagree with this, Deoxys can outrun many Choice Scarf users without Choice Scarf and without full speed EVs and without a positive nature. Speed Deoxys isn't as frail as many other sweepers/revenge killers, so EVs can be invested to make it take hits. Deoxys-S can also OHKO (IIRC) most of our best OU special and physical walls. Superpower for Blissey/Regice, Ice Beam for Hippowdon/Gliscor... etc easly a mixed moveset.

It can even Counter against Pursuit users thinking it'll run (more likely against a -2 S.atk due to Psycho Boost), avoiding a OHKO and KOing the pursuiter back.

It can also Recover, set up spikes (it's not THAT frail), and infinite stuff >_<

Not to say Baton Pass chains are already annoying. EVEN more if in the end of it there's a mixed sweeper Deoxys speed. It doesn't even need speed boosts.

I don't think we have to copycat Smogon and making our tier list exactly like theirs.

[lugiatamer493]

it was allowed in a tourney on shoddy and apparently it wasnt that good

[PokeProMaster]

Yeah, I, myself, disagree with this, Deoxys can outrun many Choice Scarf users without Choice Scarf and without full speed EVs and without a positive nature. Speed Deoxys isn't as frail as many other sweepers/revenge killers, so EVs can be invested to make it take hits. Deoxys-S can also OHKO (IIRC) most of our best OU special and physical walls. Superpower for Blissey/Regice, Ice Beam for Hippowdon/Gliscor... etc easly a mixed moveset.

It can even Counter against Pursuit users thinking it'll run (more likely against a -2 S.atk due to Psycho Boost), avoiding a OHKO and KOing the pursuiter back.

It can also Recover, set up spikes (it's not THAT frail), and infinite stuff >_<

Not to say Baton Pass chains are already annoying. EVEN more if in the end of it there's a mixed sweeper Deoxys speed. It doesn't even need speed boosts.

I don't think we have to copycat Smogon and making our tier list exactly like theirs.

I wasnt refering to smogon, i found out that at Marriland it is now in the OU tier or at least many people are saying it is and are allowing it.

but yes, i believe deoxys speed form is way to good for OU. Its movepool is just amazing, and it can even learn both counter AND mirror coat on the same set!

[lugiatamer493]

swampert can use counter and mirror coat too or is it not available on the same set

[PokeProMaster]

swampert can use counter and mirror coat too or is it not available on the same set

yes Swampert can learn them both, i have a swampert with them both, but im saying, deoxys can do pretty much anything... there are not many pokemon that can learn mirror coat and counter on the same set... (3 i believe - Deoxys, Swampet & Wobbuffet).

[Volteon]

Gastrodon and... Smeargle =O
And some things that can learn Mirror Coat normally and Counter in Emerald move tutor.

it was allowed in a tourney on shoddy and apparently it wasnt that good
People knew a Deoxys would appear in every team.

Not to say stupid people would see Deoxys in the OU list and start using Attack Deoxys thinking it's speed >_>

by the way, Latias/Latios counters are mostly from OU tier (Metagross, Bronzong, Blissey, etc) and this doesn't make them OU.

[lugiatamer493]

here is what the shoddy battlers thought

http://shoddybattle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=254

[PokeProMaster]

Gastrodon and... Smeargle =O
And some things that can learn Mirror Coat normally and Counter in Emerald move tutor.


People knew a Deoxys would appear in every team.

Not to say stupid people would see Deoxys in the OU list and start using Attack Deoxys thinking it's speed >_>

by the way, Latias/Latios counters are mostly from OU tier (Metagross, Bronzong, Blissey, etc) and this doesn't make them OU.

Gastrodon cannot learn it in the same set....

Also, after watching a couple of vids on youtube, deoxys speed form wasnt that great (used by Yukijardensurvives) and in one of the vids it almost got OHKOed by an umbreons Payback (without umbreon being hit first also).

[lugiatamer493]

not many people would have a good iv'd one with a good nature anyway

[The Shadow Trainer]

Blastoise can learn Counter and Mirror Coat. Well, i think Deoxys-S can be in OU, it actually isnt that good. It isnt strong, its only good thing is his Speed.

Btw, is Wobba Uber here on Serebii?

[lugiatamer493]

yeah, wobba is staying uber here i think

[PokeProMaster]

Blastoise can learn Counter and Mirror Coat. Well, i think Deoxys-S can be in OU, it actually isnt that good. It isnt strong, its only good thing is his Speed.

Btw, is Wobba Uber here on Serebii?

wobbu is still uber, just not on shoddy.

Also, Blastoise cannot learn counter and mirror coat on the same set!

EDIT: ahh, blastoise can learn counter in the 3rd gen via move tutor. K didnt know that.

[Volteon]

Egg move + Emerald move tutor.

Gastrodon cannot learn it in the same set....

Also, after watching a couple of vids on youtube, deoxys speed form wasnt that great (used by Yukijardensurvives) and in one of the vids it almost got OHKOed by an umbreons Payback (without umbreon being hit first also).
Wobbuffet --> Gastrodon
Yes it can

By the way, Payback doubles power if opponent moved first (attacked with any move or switched). So probably this happened.

Anyways, we could not make it Uber for a while. Was doing some damage calculations in MetalKid and yeah, it's not as sturdy as I thought it would.

[lugiatamer493]

what if he is given mirror coat by breeding on 3rd gen and then taught counter on emerald

[PokeProMaster]

yeah i forgot lol, i always forgot about that. Well actually just asumed it couldnt because it cant learn counter by breeding or anything in the 4th gen.

my bad.

[lugiatamer493]

some people are also beginning ho-oh talks

[PokeProMaster]

no way, Ho-oh can never be moved to the OU.....

[lugiatamer493]

people are probably doing it due to his usage in ubers and stealth rock

[Volteon]

IIRC it's because it's 4x weak to Stealth Rock?
Sacred Fire 50% chance to burn + ability to use even while frost (rare, but useful) + Ho-oh's attack.... no O.o
I can easly see many Choice Scarf/Band ones combined with many Spinners.

It can also play with oppoennts receiving special moves due to it's high HP and S.def.

[darksteel]

wth ho- oh a 680 base and no hindering ability...placing it in OUs is ridiculous

[itsme]

Nice guidline :). Faved for reference :).

[Bert]

Ho-oH in OU? ****ing joke, right?
First off, it has like, 130 base Atk combined with a 154 base SDef which means Blissey finally would have some competition. If you count Sacred Fire in, with it's 50% chance burn (No, Heracross wouldn't love that because by then he's DEAD) and a good SAtk as well and Choice Banded/Scarfed/even Specced Ho-oH's would crush the OU metagame. Especially since there are many good Rapid Spinners available nowadays, thinking of Donphan and Starmie.

Whoever suggested that gets my vote for 'Noob of the Year'. Probably, he couldn't counter Ho-oH in the Uber metagame so he wanted to get it to OU so he wouldn't have to worry anymore and pass his personal incompetence to the more advanced and generally better players.

[DrunkenSniper]

lol, Banning Ho-Oh is crazy. Two similar (albeit more interesting) hot topics are "What is Uber", and "Should we consider bumping up Chompy?"

[Bert]

Chomp to Uber? Rofl I haven't laughed that much since the release of Fable.

[Volteon]

They do have good arguments by the way.

[Bert]

They do have good arguments by the way.


Such as? 'Chomp pwns anything it faces!' ? Look Voltoen, I know you're undoubtedly among the better (best, even) players serebii's got. But Chomp does fine in OU. In Uber he wouldn't really work out. Chomp is not that hard to kill actually. A Chomp trapped in Outrage can be revenge killed easily by an Ice Shard Weavile and a good Bulky Water is about as close as you can get to a 'counter' (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while -_-").

I'd be happy to hear one good argument tough, surprise me.

[DrunkenSniper]

Bert, what is more important to Balance? OU or Uber?

And tell me, what can you switch into a Garchomp that packs Substitute, Swords Dance, and two unknown moves (along with Sand)?

[Volteon]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558
many pages O_o

Garchomp does very bad in Ubers, I agree, but that's not a reason to keep it in OU.
They say it overcentralizes the game a lot, and that's the main definition of Uber.

I'm indiferent to the decision, but I'll be happy to use less Ice stuff =P (Or use Flygon without having to worry there're better things)

[Bert]

What woudl the Uber game gain with Chomp?

It can't do anything against Kyogre, Groudon, Arceus, Darkrai (unless Scarfed), Defense Deoxys (maybe Crunch to some degree tough it won't do much). True, it outspeeds some dragons, notably Unscarfed Rayquaza and IIRC Lati@s.

About the second question. You have a point, but the same goes for Breloom when a skilled player can get it up. Only Skilled players can get it to work.

On second tought, seeing it only packs 2 Attacking moves Skarmory or Suicune or any good physically defensive PHazer could ruin it since it wouldn't Pack Fire Fang as one of it's two moves. You can roar him out and he just wasted 25% (or more) from his HP. If you have spike support up, having another go would be painful to the extremes.

It's just like DD Dos, once set-up correclty it's unstoppable. But does Dos ened to be moved to Uber for that? Not at all.

I respect your opinion, Drunkensniper, because I know you're good. Please respect mine.

[DrunkenSniper]

I do, but the point here is that the main metagame is OU, not Uber. It's better that one pokémon is very rarely used rather than everyone having to make large team alterations just to counter one.

Assuming Sandstorm, Jolly Garchomp 2HKOs Bold, 252 HP/Def Suicune with both Dragon Claw and EQ after 1 SD. Suicune can't OHKO back with Ice Beam, and Sandstorm reduces the accuracy of both Roar and IB.

[Bert]

I do, but the point here is that the main metagame is OU, not Uber. It's better that one pokémon is very rarely used rather than everyone having to make large team alterations just to counter one..

Then I suggest we move Cresselia, DD Dos, Specsmence and other of those junk to Uber.

Garchomp has been used for months now and nobody argued until now some guy decided he couldn't stand up to it.

Edit:

Suicune can't OHKO back with Ice Beam, and Sandstorm reduces the accuracy of both Roar and IB.

Since you assume Chomp has a SD up, I cna assume Suicune has a CM up, with which it WILL KO. You assume to much, getting a sandstorm up without being burned, parlayzed (tough only by body slam in this case) or something else annoying isn't as easy as it seems. As not eveyrone is as dumb as the noobs out here.

[DrunkenSniper]

It was argued long before DP was out, and there was always discussion of it. It only recently returned with a new, badder moveset created.

And Gyara and Salamence are far less powerful in that they are both weak to Stealth Rock, and don't have extra Sand Veil hax.

Cresslia is easier to counter than you think. Weather ruins Moonlight, and her attack is actually pretty poor, and very limited.

[Volteon]

Then I suggest we move Cresselia, DD Dos, Specsmence and other of those junk to Uber.

Garchomp has been used for months now and nobody argued until now some guy decided he couldn't stand up to it.
Same as Deoxys-S, which has good chances to stay in OU.

And unlike Garchomp, things can easly come in these and counter them back. Cresselia has the horrible Pursuit weakness, DDdos has Stealth Rock weakness + a decent counters list. and SpecsMence fails to all sp.defensive walls (Plus Heatran) and owns Stealth Rock weakness too.

People are still deciding it and maybe will put Garchomp in Uber for one month just to see how the metagame gets without it. If it gets more versatile, he'll be kept.

[Bert]

Cresslia is easier to counter than you think. Weather ruins Moonlight, and her attack is actually pretty poor, and very limited.

You speak of moving Chomp because you need a whole team build aorudn to counter it, tough I should definitely install a weather poke if I hope to o****er Cresselia. And Charge Beam Cresselia is horrible to face. Since my own Chomp barely 3KO's (if it all) with Crunch (without Swords Dance but Adamant) and Moonlight even ruins it more.

@ Volteon: Stealth Rock can easily be spinned away since there's more good Spinners as good Special Walls. Donphan, Starmie and Forretress are among the best, but if you want a Special Wall there's very little choice.

Pursuit is situational, since no one would switch Cressy out vs a Weavile it would survive a hit from anyway and Weavile doesn't survive a hit at all (especially when Cressy Charge Beamed up before a bit).

Either way, this is not the place for such a discussion.

Edit: And btw, moving Deoxys-S to OU actually is with a reason. It's a good 'counter' for Yanmega and Ninjask (tough less seen now) - especially with Extremespeed - and it also ruins a great deal of Choice Scarfed pokes, which everyone knows are very very common nowadays.

[Volteon]

Well, it's semi decent place since tiers are added in the rules. We can always add a separated thread, but I bet many noobs will start posting in it...

And if you are behind a Sub or if weather is sandstorm (not rare when opponent is Garchomp) Cresselia gets in trouble.

Though I think Smogon is exagerating a little, when you know what set Garchomp is using, it's not as hard to beat it (but to do this you need to sacrifice at least one Pokémon... or it'll be too late). Sand Veil is an evil ability for it... If it had Rough Skin, it'd be less broken.

Having Slowbro miss Ice Beam three times in a row is bad though... (had this in two battles already. Prepared for the third >_<)

[DrunkenSniper]

Another problem with Garchomp is its surprisingly high defenses. It's actually very hard to OHKO it without ridiculous Special Attack investments on a Bulky Pokémon or A set up/scarfed Dragon with Stabbed Meteor/Outrage

[Bert]

Another problem with Garchomp is its surprisingly high defenses. It's actually very hard to OHKO it without ridiculous Special Attack investments on a Bulky Pokémon or A set up/scarfed Dragon with Stabbed Meteor/Outrage


Any Ice move with good special attack is a OHKO, especially if Stabbed.

Weavile with Ice Shard is a good exemple, considering Ice Shard is just 40 BP (60 after Stab). Mine got killed many times, and I think I'm one of the better battlers (forigve me if I'm wrong) and it really isn't that hard.

[DrunkenSniper]

Any Ice move with good special attack is a OHKO, especially if Stabbed.

Weavile with Ice Shard is a good exemple, considering Ice Shard is just 40 BP (60 after Stab). Mine got killed many times, and I think I'm one of the better battlers (forigve me if I'm wrong) and it really isn't that hard.
Wrong.

266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam. That's a minimum of 120 EVs from a base of 100 Sp.Attk just to do that job. EG, Milotic/Slowbro. Neither can be sent directly into Garchomp since they'll be crippled in the switch-in.
Swampert needs 240 Sp.Attk EVs to OHKO with Ice Beam. Lapras and Walrein get STAB, but are significantly worse at the Bulky Water job.
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. That's a joke.
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Shard, or 462 with STAB. CB Weavile can, but you need to make a sacrifice to do that. Otherwise, he'll be OHKO'd on the switch or by the counter.
Salamence/other chomps need 1 S/D Dance or a CB to OHKO with claw.

[Bert]

Wrong.

266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam. That's a minimum of 120 EVs from a base of 100 Sp.Attk just to do that job. EG, Milotic/Slowbro. Neither can be sent directly into Garchomp since they'll be crippled in the switch-in.
Swampert needs 240 Sp.Attk EVs to OHKO with Ice Beam. Lapras and Walrein get STAB, but are significantly worse at the Bulky Water job.
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. That's a joke.
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Shard, or 462 with STAB. CB Weavile can, but you need to make a sacrifice to do that. Otherwise, he'll be OHKO'd on the switch or by the counter.
Salamence/other chomps need 1 S/D Dance or a CB to OHKO with claw.


Nicely copied from Serebii. Looking at that list you've got plenty of choices to kill Garchomp -_-".

CB Weavile can switch on the swords danc eif you're good at predicting (or if the foe trapped himself into an outrage ad killed one of your guys) but it's unreliable. It's the ebst revenge killers tough.

Slowbro has Slack Off to reduce damage taken, and sicne Most Milotic Are Resttalkers he can take the hit reasonably well, provided Chomp ain't got a SD ofcourse.

361 means a minimal base of 115, maxed with nature and EV's/IV's. Tough Life Orb can minimize the effort needed a bit (for Exemple, Special Infernape with HP Ice and Spike/SR support OHKO's, but it's a revenge killer and not safe to switch in unless well-timed. Togekiss can survive an unboosted hit and OHKO with HP Ice, but who owuldp ut HP Ice on Togekiss in the first place? Modest Jolteon with Spikes/Sr support might be able to pull it off as well but can't risk switching into an EQ.

Plenty of options to kill it, but most only work when you're either skilled or lucky. And unskilled players should either become skilled or learn to live with daily pwnge. Garchomp did fine in OU, and now everybody wants to move it, I don't get it.

[PokeProMaster]

People make garchomp sound SO much better in words. Garchomp is no where near as deadly as it is made out, im saying this from personal encounters however, I have never been totally threatened by a garchomp. Personally i agree with bert and feel garchomp should be kept where it is.

Personally i find Gyarados to be the most deadliest in the OU tier, darn after a dragon danced its just so hard to take down, also, many people use different sets, you will never know if its carrying ice fang and/or Stone edge so you cant to guarantee to wall it with mence and other gyarados'. Not all carry EQ but alot of them do. Most Will also taunt to stop your walls from doing ANYTHING also. After a couple of dragon dances, Gyarados is an absolute monster.

This is the downfall with garchomp, it cant increase its speed in anyway apart from by using items.

[Volteon]

Humm... I bet that Ice Shard Weavile you mentioned uses Ice Shard for everything. And if Ice Shard misses due to SVeil, it's down.

Impossible to beat it's not, but I'm not sure how the discussion in Smogon started.
Maybe it's that Brigtpowder Garchomp, but they are banned here in SPPf.

[phantom1113]

Humm... I bet that Ice Shard Weavile you mentioned uses Ice Shard for everything. And if Ice Shard misses due to SVeil, it's down.

Impossible to beat it's not, but I'm not sure how the discussion in Smogon started.
Maybe it's that Brigtpowder Garchomp, but they are banned here in SPPf.
The mean reason was it 2hko's anywall or something like that

[Bert]

I agree with PPM, if you move Garchomp, move Gyarados as well. It's far more threatening and the 'you shouldn't have to build opyur team aroudn it' argument can be used here as well. While Gyarados is a monster, your best bet is too have a Cressy with Charge Beam. And that's about it. Vire get's outspeeded after one DD, I'm not sure if Jolteon does so maybe he could switch in on DD but that's risky with EQ.

Seems like much less options to kill DD Dos then a Chomp eh? With Chomp there's two possibilities, it's either Scarfed or has SD. In both cases he is stopable, so just leave him where he is.

Edit @ Phantom1113: Yea, I've read it. It's like: this move 2HKo's that wall, this move 2HKO's that wall. It's ********. Proper prediction causes your wall NOT to get hit with that when switchign in. Only noobs or confused players get their walls killed like that.

[phantom1113]

I agree with PPM, if you move Garchomp, move Gyarados as well. It's far more threatening and the 'you shouldn't have to build opyur team aroudn it' argument can be used here as well. While Gyarados is a monster, your best bet is too have a Cressy with Charge Beam. And that's about it. Vire get's outspeeded after one DD, I'm not sure if Volteon does so maybe he could switch in on DD but that's risky with EQ.

Seems like much less options to kill DD Dos then a Chomp eh? With Chomp there's two possibilities, it's either Scarfed or has SD. In both cases he is stopable, so just leave him where he is.

Edit @ Phantom1113: Yea, I've read it. It's like: this move 2HKo's that wall, this move 2HKO's that wall. It's ********. Proper prediction causes your wall NOT to get hit with that when switchign in. Only noobs or confused players get their walls killed like that.

noobs like me :)

[Volteon]

I agree with PPM, if you move Garchomp, move Gyarados as well. It's far more threatening and the 'you shouldn't have to build opyur team aroudn it' argument can be used here as well. While Gyarados is a monster, your best bet is too have a Cressy with Charge Beam. And that's about it. Vire get's outspeeded after one DD, I'm not sure if Volteon does so maybe he could switch in on DD but that's risky with EQ.

Seems like much less options to kill DD Dos then a Chomp eh? With Chomp there's two possibilities, it's either Scarfed or has SD. In both cases he is stopable, so just leave him where he is.

Edit @ Phantom1113: Yea, I've read it. It's like: this move 2HKo's that wall, this move 2HKO's that wall. It's ********. Proper prediction causes your wall NOT to get hit with that when switchign in. Only noobs or confused players get their walls killed like that.
I suppose you mean Jolteon. Remember, I'm not a Pokémon xP

Jolteon can outrun Gyarados after DD assuming it has no full EV in speed (rare)

[Bert]

Lol, sorry, got a little confused xD.
Well I doubt there's much Gyarados with unmaxed speed, altough I seem to recall PPM's Dos to have a bit extra Hp/SDef to live up to Hp Electric better (and succesfully so, grr -_-") but that's not the point. So Joltoen can't beat. Cress can if it hasn't got too many DD's, but what else? Nothign much eh?

[DrunkenSniper]

Lol, sorry, got a little confused xD.
Well I doubt there's much Gyarados with unmaxed speed, altough I seem to recall PPM's Dos to have a bit extra Hp/SDef to live up to Hp Electric better (and succesfully so, grr -_-") but that's not the point. So Joltoen can't beat. Cress can if it hasn't got too many DD's, but what else? Nothign much eh?Most Gyaras have low spd (rushed, sorry).
The standard is Bulkygyara, and even the offensive variant doesn't max.

[Volteon]

With max HP/S.def and +S.def nature, Gyarados fails to resist Timid Jolteon's Thunderbolt.

My Tangrowth has been doing a great job against Gyarados, and Staraptor's Brave Bird could OHKO Gyarados once (it got Stealth Rocked so I don't think it counts =P).

Many bulky grass types do well against Gyarados. And don't forget Gyarados' ultimate counter, Porygon2!

Also BulkyGyara is pretty slow and many common things still outrun it (Like Starmie or Gengar)

[PokeProMaster]

my gyarados doesnt have MAX Sp.Def.... however, it has little (or even 0 Speed EV's!) however my gyarados USUALLY carries Wacan Berry.... Not even a MAXed Sp.Atk scarfed Porygon-Z can switch into my Gyarados' Dragon dance, because yes it will outspeed it, but while it T-Bolts me i will Take the hit because of Wacan Berry very nicely and then DD up and after 2 Dragon Dances theres pretty much nothing that can outspeed it.... This would go the same with Jolteon, who wouldnt be able to OHKO my gyarados with a t-bolt while i double barrel role up. Also, the good thing with Wacan berry is that if your opponent has not see your whole team, they might be scared of using T-Bolt as they could think you could switch into a vire/ground type and totally counter them so sometimes you get another free dragon dance which is nice :D

[The Shadow Trainer]

Garchomp isnt that hard to beat. Note that all the calculations on Smogon are with CB version and i mostly see ScafChomp. He is annoying in Sandstorm but still not unstopble.

There are alot other pkmn that are hard to beat(like Gyara)they also dont move to Uber.

EDIT: Oh and Gyara isnt that hard to counter, it is only a trouble after 2 DDs. And even then can Physical Walls (that dont have a weak to its STAB) take a hit.

[Control_of_Time]

Question: Does it matter what levels pokemon supposed to be?

[PokeProMaster]

what do you mean "Supposed To Be"

if your pokemon(s) are like say level 16 and you take them into wifi and set the battle to level 100 Single/Double or Level 50 Single/Double your level 16 pokemon(s) will go to level 50 or 100.

[DrunkenSniper]

EDIT: Oh and Gyara isnt that hard to counter, it is only a trouble after 2 DDs. And even then can Physical Walls (that dont have a weak to its STAB) take a hit.
Physical walls get taunted, and thus can't do much. : S

I must admit though, I don't know where I stand on the Garchomp debate.

[InDarknessLight]

one question... how are these rules enforced?

[thebattler1]

well if they aren't, usually the opponent or you will d/c and you will be blacklisted.

[darksteel]

one question... how are these rules enforced?

It's usually a gentlemen's agreement, BUT if you want to battle more, it's best to follow the rules if you or your opponent specifies it.

Usually if you don't follow the rules, you get a bad rep, it spreads and no one wants to battle you

[Namikaze]

bulkydos is actally more common than youd think. the 4/252/252 ev spreads arent as common.

and btw after 1 dd and max iv and evs in spd gyara still gets outrun by pokes with 130 base spd.

gyaras can be monsters but all pokes have their weaknesses. and gyara doesnt have monstruos stats either so it should stay where it is. it fails to stealth rock and swampert with counter <---- very useful.

its all about how you build your teams. you should have ounters for pokes like this.

also the other day some noob challenged me and well he stated a pp clause where you cant use pp ups on your pokes in and out of battles. i was rofl.

[Volteon]

Lol xD
I don't think it's necessary adding this... You can't avoid this "rule". Like if you use Double Team in a Pokémon, you can replace the move with something, but once the PPs are raised, you can't decrease them.


Ah and I don't know why they didn't make a priority electric move =S Gyarados would not suck, but would be a lot less used once it's created 8D ... and it makes sense... more sense than a steel priority move...

[Shiny Magmortar]

I don't know...My BulkyGyara can outrun Yanmega after Yanmega Speed Boosts and ScarfHera, each after two Dragon Dances...However, nothing in standard play resists its two combination moves...Which I Will not disclose...But Volteon knows what moves it has...So, that may very well be the most lethal thing in play...I'm thinking Garchomp takes second fiddle here...

[phantom1113]

I don't know...My BulkyGyara can outrun Yanmega after Yanmega Speed Boosts and ScarfHera, each after two Dragon Dances...However, nothing in standard play resists its two combination moves...Which I Will not disclose...But Volteon knows what moves it has...So, that may very well be the most lethal thing in play...I'm thinking Garchomp takes second fiddle here...

skarf hera isnt used much anyway these days,
everyone uses CB version

[Monkeyomok]

Wait a minute, this site is ANTI-HACK?
This makes you guys look EVEN worse!

[phantom1113]

Wait a minute, this site is ANTI-HACK?
This makes you guys look EVEN worse!

specify hack

EDIT: so do marriland and smogon...

[Volteon]

Yeah, no site favors ilegal hacks.

[Monkeyomok]

Yeah, no site favors ilegal hacks.

You could clarify it as "illegal hacks".
There is a difference.
>>

[Volteon]

All hacks give someone an advantage over others. I'm keeping it the way it is, but if people wanna use "legal" hacks, it's "okay".
Anyways, if you wanna go 31 IVs vs 31 IVs just go to Shoody...

[phantom1113]

You could clarify it as "illegal hacks".
There is a difference.
>>

I think you mean using PokeSAV since your so bad at breeding you thought it was unfair for all the others right?

[Pimplup784]

All hacks give someone an advantage over others. I'm keeping it the way it is, but if people wanna use "legal" hacks, it's "okay".
Anyways, if you wanna go 31 IVs vs 31 IVs just go to Shoody...

Wait what is a shoddy?

[Volteon]

A battle simulator like NetBattle. Though it has some glitches, people like it.
Unlike me =P

[Pimplup784]

A battle simulator like NetBattle. Though it has some glitches, people like it.
Unlike me =P

Yeah, I heard it was dumb...

[phantom1113]

A battle simulator like NetBattle. Though it has some glitches, people like it.
Unlike me =P

what glitches??????

[Monkeyomok]

what glitches??????

Well, back to the old subject, no, not because I suck at breeding, I've done stuff without sav, but usually I dont find the time.
But one example would be REstalking Hera (Rest activates guts)

[SkittyOnWailord]

I have a question that I think will come up with a new Pokemon I'll be using.
How does Sleep Clause work when you put a 2nd Pokemon to sleep with Metranome or Assist?

[phantom1113]

I have a question that I think will come up with a new Pokemon I'll be using.
How does Sleep Clause work when you put a 2nd Pokemon to sleep with Metranome or Assist?
That falls under rest I think

[SkittyOnWailord]

That falls under rest I think

Thats what I guessed. Thanks.

[phantom1113]

Thats what I guessed. Thanks.

but it does break other clauses right? 1hko and evasions

but anyways its still a chance of 1 in a 100 you get a 1hko/sleep inducing/double team/minimize move

[SkittyOnWailord]

but it does break other clauses right? 1hko and evasions

but anyways its still a chance of 1 in a 100 you get a 1hko/sleep inducing/double team/minimize move

I don't see how it could be. It says you can't use those moves. You aren't really using them, Metranome is. I have the feeling this will turn into a discution about the defanition of the word "Use".>_>
You can't use moves that increases your evasion. Avoid the use of Accupressure, it has 1/7 chance to double your evasion.

You are strictly prohibited of using OHKO moves. They are Guillotine, Horn Drill, Fissure and Sheer Cold.

[phantom1113]

I don't see how it could be. It says you can't use those moves. You aren't really using them, Metranome is. I have the feeling this will turn into a discution about the defanition of the word "Use".>_>

ok, first how many moves are there to be exact??

[SkittyOnWailord]

ok, first how many moves are there to be exact??

I might have miscounted a few, but there are 467 attacks. Not counting Metranome, Assist, Sketch or Strugle, that would make 463.

[phantom1113]

I might have miscounted a few, but there are 467 attacks. Not counting Metranome, Assist, Sketch or Strugle, that would make 463.

so actuly 466 (metronome cant be strugle)

-and there are 3 sleep inducing moves right? (spore/sleep powder and hypnosis)

-4 OHKO moves

-2 evasions rasing moves (excluding acupressure)

so theres a 9/466 chance of a rule breaking moves (excluding accupresure)

cant figure out the percentage.

the question is:
Is that chance TOO high to just be acepted??

[SkittyOnWailord]

so actuly 466 (metronome cant be strugle)


I'm pretty sure it can't use Assist, Sketch, Strugle or another Metronome. Thats why I listed them.

[phantom1113]

It can't use Assist, Sketch, Strugle or another Metronome. Thats why I listed them.

ah ok so thats 9/463
about 2% ???

I think That chance is low enough to use (1 in 51 to be exact)

[SkittyOnWailord]

ah ok so thats 9/463
about 2% ???

I think That chance is low enough to use (1 in 51 to be exact)

Ok, good. Thanks for the help.

[Volteon]

There're some more moves that can't be Metronomed:
* Assist * Chatter * Copycat * Counter * Covet * Destiny Bond * Detect * Endure * Feint * Focus Punch * Follow Me * Helping Hand * Me First * Metronome * Mimic * Mirror Coat * Mirror Move * Protect * Sketch * Sleep Talk * Snatch * Struggle * Switcheroo * Thief * Trick * Any move the user knows.

28 Moves, which means 439 moves.

Double Team, Minimize and OHKO move are 6 moves among these 439 which is about 1.36% chance.

I suppose with Metronome, "using" Double Team/ OHKO moves/ Sleeping twice is fine.

In the case of Double Team, it'll very probably be used only once, which is not a problem, because Pokémon won't be abusing Double Team.
OHKO moves annoys if they hit, but it's unlikely to select it twice.
And Sleeping twice... eh, back from the percentages, it's unlikely to select one, but I think most people accept it because of the funniness of Metronome =P

EDIT: Forgot about the sleeping moves xD
They are more than 3. Lovely Kiss, Dark Void, Sing, Grasswhistle)

[phantom1113]

There're some more moves that can't be Metronomed:


28 Moves, which means 439 moves.

Double Team, Minimize and OHKO move are 6 moves among these 439 which is about 1.36% chance.

I suppose with Metronome, "using" Double Team/ OHKO moves/ Sleeping twice is fine.

In the case of Double Team, it'll very probably be used only once, which is not a problem, since Pokémon that abuse Double Team.
OHKO moves annoys if they hit, but it's unlikely to select it twice.
And Sleeping twice... eh, back from the percentages, it's unlikely to select one, but I think most people accept it because of the funniness of Metronome =P


ok, thanks :)

[Sudo]

Is Deoxys-e allowed in OU on Serebii? Smogon and Shoddy Battle let you use it... and now that I finally got my hands on a decent Hasty one, I decided I would try it out.

[Volteon]

I'd say yes.
It's been proven that it's strong enough for OU.

An edit in link in first page would be ideal. But it's not just one or two people who decides that...

And an old topic to sleep two opponents without breaking the rules, I think I found a way....

First you have to simply sleep the opponent with one of your Pokémon.

Then when the opponent sends his/her sleep inducer, you use Magic Coat to reflect the sleep. You aren't choosing one of opponents Pokémon to sleep, you're just protecting yourself from it, much like Taunt, but punishing the opponent even more.

Too bad the most effective way to do it is with Kecleon or Loppuny, because the others has more things to do than Magic Coating. But this is such a cool move, it is!

[PokeProMaster]

I'd say yes.
It's been proven that it's strong enough for OU.

An edit in link in first page would be ideal. But it's not just one or two people who decides that...

And an old topic to sleep two opponents without breaking the rules, I think I found a way....

First you have to simply sleep the opponent with one of your Pokémon.

Then when the opponent sends his/her sleep inducer, you use Magic Coat to reflect the sleep. You aren't choosing one of opponents Pokémon to sleep, you're just protecting yourself from it, much like Taunt, but punishing the opponent even more.

Too bad the most effective way to do it is with Kecleon or Loppuny, because the others has more things to do than Magic Coating. But this is such a cool move, it is!

Deoxys-E SHOULD be allowed in OU, because its not very good and it can be easily dealt with.

Also, at marriland they are doing Wobbuffet OU testing and they might make it OU after a later date.

[Volteon]

I woudln't say easly, but yeah.

I kind of disagree on Wobby, but that's only based on what I read, never faced one, so I don't know how I'd do against it.

[phantom1113]

mostly noobs here now so I say it isnt alowed...
but it should be

EDIT: wobba isnt that hard to kill,
I've met several on shoddy

[Sudo]

YAY! I'm gonna go train up my Deoxys-E right away.

I knew deep down something with 317 attacking stats shouldn't be in ubers... it's basically a crappy "scarf" user that can switch moves :P

[phantom1113]

YAY! I'm gonna go train up my Deoxys-E right away.

I knew deep down something with 317 attacking stats shouldn't be in ubers... it's basically a crappy "scarf" user that can switch moves :P

ok, if any noob complains about it just tell them to: stfu up and learn about pokemon ;)

[Volteon]

YAY! I'm gonna go train up my Deoxys-E right away.

I knew deep down something with 317 attacking stats shouldn't be in ubers... it's basically a crappy "scarf" user that can switch moves :P
Phant is kind of right, but stickies should be readen everyday (especially those that has rules in title >_>) But I bet 50% of people does that...

And it may be a crapy "Scarf" thing, but it has Scarf speed, with the ability to Life Orb or other Choices (so 375 attack with Life Orb or 433 attack with a Choice something).

Still not threatening =P but it's usable when sent at the right time.

[phantom1113]

Phant is kind of right, but stickies should be readen everyday (especially those that has rules in title >_>) But I bet 50% of people does that...

And it may be a crapy "Scarf" thing, but it has Scarf speed, with the ability to Life Orb or other Choices (so 375 attack with Life Orb or 433 attack with a Choice something).

Still not threatening =P but it's usable when sent at the right time.

lol k

I never read the rules and I never had trouble folowing them lol

[-Master Deoxys-]

Hmmm? Do we have to use these rules or can we use our own rules? don't tell me I got those Deoxys for nothing =(

[Volteon]

SPEED Deoxys is the only one accepted.

And no, you don't have to. If you aren't following the standard rules, point your own rules while making the thread/asking for a challenge.

And @ phantom... You're no noob, new to competitive nor new to the forum =P

[phantom1113]

SPEED Deoxys is the only one accepted.

And no, you don't have to. If you aren't following the standard rules, point your own rules while making the thread/asking for a challenge.

And @ phantom... You're no noob, new to competitive nor new to the forum =P

when I was new i meant =p

@master deoxys, these are the standard rules most people play with

[-Master Deoxys-]

SPEED Deoxys is the only one accepted.

And no, you don't have to. If you aren't following the standard rules, point your own rules while making the thread/asking for a challenge.

And @ phantom... You're no noob, new to competitive nor new to the forum =P

Yay! but my team will probably get wiped across the floor =P

[phantom1113]

Yay! but my team will probably get wiped across the floor =P

species clause is banned at anycost tho

[kaijusasuke]

There should be rules on fixing the lag time and incapability of this forum to load at specific times of the day/evening.

[phantom1113]

There should be rules on fixing the lag time and incapability of this forum to load at specific times of the day/evening.

what do you mean??
the lagg is because its just so busy here,

and why wont you breed farfetch'd :(
farfetch'd <3

[kaijusasuke]

what do you mean??
the lagg is because its just so busy here,

and why wont you breed farfetch'd :(
farfetch'd <3

Don't worry, I <3 Farfetch'd too.

...SO hard.

He should be made into a rule.

[striker]

i didnt know were to put this but would it be possible for someone to make a list of what pokemon belongs to what tier because me and im sure others would like to know

[phantom1113]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/
this one is closest to OFicial

[zapdragon14]

could someone tell me why the lati@s are uber. they're base 600 like a lot of OU pokes so why do they go into uber?

[phantom1113]

soul dew...

[zapdragon14]

oh right, is it an item that only works for them? and what does it do?

[Volteon]

Not only Soul Dew, eve without this item (that raises S.atk and S.def from both by 1 stage), Lati twins would sweep in standard battles.

You're aware that SpecsMence is a threatening special Pokémon right? So now, take Draco Meteor with 20 more base stat in Special attack and 10 more base stat in speed! Then add the face Latios aren't 4x weakness to ice. Consider that Lati@s aren't weak to stealth rock too, but keeping the immunity to ground. And also, unlike Salamence, they can increase their Special attack with Calm Mind. Not to say Lati@s special movepool are considerably higher, being able to Gras Knot, Shadow Ball, BOLTBEAM....

I think it's enough reason to keep it away from standard.

Latios can even mix sweep with Dragon Dance.

[zapdragon14]

ok, thanks for clearing things up for me :)

[phantom1113]

No SkarmBliss - NOT STANDARD
A dumb rule created by someone unknown that didn't have skills to handle Skarmory and Blissey used in the same team. Definately not standard, but it's there... Also the combination of these aren't as effective as it was in Advance
It's no skarmblisscres BTW

[The Shadow Trainer]

Is Cress also in that rule? I think only skarmbliss which is the dumbest rule ever(i dont care since i dont use both of them :P)
Why does this rule excist? Lucario can take them both, Focus Blast can also be an option or Ape...

[phantom1113]

marriland and regileague etc. have skarmblisscress clause. cress makes it more dangerous since it counters ape. luke cant do much either

[fede125955]

cress is probs the best ape counter ever but luke can easily take it down with some residual damage with a sdanced life orbed crunch. Still skarmblisscress is fairly unfair

[LKHD]

Anyone else think Cresselia should be classed as uber?

[phantom1113]

no, what are your arguments?

[Ricky87]

okay so for sleeping clause,

-When foe is using Rest, it doesn't count as my sleep effect?
-you said something about spore ? it count as sleep effect like hypnosis right?

[Volteon]

With Cress or not, rule won't be Standard, so won't need work. This may give ideas to other people too, which is why I'm considering taking off some no standard rules in the first post...

And Cresselia is sure a strong opponent, but don't need to be in Uber.
Sand and it's pratically down.

As for Sleep Clause: Having opponent asleep when he used Rest or got asleep with the effect of Effect Spore Ability won't count in the sleep clause.

May add something about Magic Coat too, but it's very likely this will never happen.

[DeathCon]

You pokenerds sure have a lot of crazy jargon. APE, Skarmblisscress, luke... what the heezy bojeezy? You guys take this to a whole nother level.

[fede125955]

And Cresselia is sure a strong opponent, but don't need to be in Uber.
Sand and it's pratically down.

I entirely disagree with this as every cress is packing rest nowadays due to the popularity of ttar and the fat hippo

[Kuraudo]

ok i agree with all the rules, and great sticky btw, but my question is:
How do u know if the guy/gurl that u are fighting doesnt have any hax items?
U dont is base in pure trust?
Just curiosity ^.^
Cheers

[Gabri91]

ok i agree with all the rules, and great sticky btw, but my question is:
How do u know if the guy/gurl that u are fighting doesnt have any hax items?
U dont is base in pure trust?
Just curiosity ^.^
Cheers


That's really a good question... I'm curious too.
Anyway, I was wondering: why is the hax items clause a standard rule? I don't think they are so powerfull...

[Volteon]

Already wrote that so many times that I may put it in sig @_@

Standard = Strategy =/= Luck

Pokémon is already a very much luck based game and making it YET MORE based on luck takes off the strategy part.

^That's a summary, but reasons, there're a lot.

Anyways, when you use Close Combat in a Weavile and it misses, of course it has Brightpowder, if Cloyster got an item use animation and moved first than your Crobat, obviously it's holding Quick Claw or when opponent's Sky Uppercut flinches, obviously it's holding King's Rock.

It's like the Evasion clause. Opponent has a Blissey and it has used Ice Beam, Seismic Toss, Softboiled, in the entire battle, so far the battle was fine (read - no Hax item activation) but when Blissey uses it's Double Team (Read - activation of Hax item) you have discovered it has the banned move (read - banned item) and then you have reasons to disconnect.

[Gabri91]

Already wrote that so many times that I may put it in sig @_@

Standard = Strategy =/= Luck

Pokémon is already a very much luck based game and making it YET MORE based on luck takes off the strategy part.

^That's a summary, but reasons, there're a lot.

Anyways, when you use Close Combat in a Weavile and it misses, of course it has Brightpowder, if Cloyster got an item use animation and moved first than your Crobat, obviously it's holding Quick Claw or when opponent's Sky Uppercut flinches, obviously it's holding King's Rock.

It's like the Evasion clause. Opponent has a Blissey and it has used Ice Beam, Seismic Toss, Softboiled, in the entire battle, so far the battle was fine (read - no Hax item activation) but when Blissey uses it's Double Team (Read - activation of Hax item) you have discovered it has the banned move (read - banned item) and then you have reasons to disconnect.

Ok, but I think that only quick claw is an item that is based on luck, because it has a chance to activate. All the others give a permanent boost to a stat (right?) (ex: bright powder raises evasion), so I don't think they can be considered items that works thanks to luck. It's mathematic (if you raise your pokemon evasiveness with bright powder, it will obviously evade some opponents attacks more than it normally would). Science and luck are two completely different things.

However, if these are forum's rules, I' ll respect them without more objections. ^-^

[Volteon]

Ok, but I think that only quick claw is an item that is based on luck, because it has a chance to activate. All the others give a permanent boost to a stat (right?) (ex: bright powder raises evasion), so I don't think they can be considered items that works thanks to luck. It's mathematic (if you raise your pokemon evasiveness with bright powder, it will obviously evade some opponents attacks more than it normally would). Science and luck are two completely different things.

However, if these are forum's rules, I' ll respect them without more objections. ^-^
Focus Band?
a critical example...

Two opponent's last Pokémon, they both have red HP, and you are faster than the opponent! You go there and use your impressive Earthquake to end with the battle and...? attack missed! then opponent attacks and you lose the battle.

This is, 8% chance to lose a battle, isn't this hax?

Hax or not, BrightPowder also breaks the evasion clause in a way.

[Nenäpää]

Ok, but I think that only quick claw is an item that is based on luck, because it has a chance to activate. All the others give a permanent boost to a stat (right?) (ex: bright powder raises evasion), so I don't think they can be considered items that works thanks to luck. It's mathematic (if you raise your pokemon evasiveness with bright powder, it will obviously evade some opponents attacks more than it normally would). Science and luck are two completely different things.
Yes they are, if you use a move that has 100% accuracy against someone with brightpowder, it could miss. Then it depends from luck if it misses. I don't really see a difference on using brightpowder and cuick claw.

Think it this way:

Quick claw has a change of raising your speed over your opponent. It needs luck to activate.

Brightpowder raises your evasion stat by one. It needs luck to activate too. Unlike in a normal stat up (for example move howl), evasion is a luck based stat. And attack is not.

//Damn I'm slow at writing. :|

Does brightpowder raise your evasion stat by one? Because if I remember correctly, your evasion raises then by 33%.

[Gabri91]

Focus Band?
a critical example...

Two opponent's last Pokémon, they both have red HP, and you are faster than the opponent! You go there and use your impressive Earthquake to end with the battle and...? attack missed! then opponent attacks and you lose the battle.

This is, 8% chance to lose a battle, isn't this hax?

Hax or not, BrightPowder also breaks the evasion clause in a way.


You are right, I forgot about focus band XD .
Ok, I got it. Thank you. ^-^

[Dugtrio]

Some of these rules i disagree
Species clause
Some Teams might benifit from 2 pokemon of the same i'd understand if teams had 3 blisseys i would adjust it to no more then 2 of the same pokemon.
Hax items
The items are useful these increase the 'luck' of the pokemon hopefully this will take some of the popularity away from choice items and leftovers.
Also if you want to ban luck adjusting items why not ban luck abillities
Adjusting your luck can be a tactic so banning these items is banning a tactic

[Volteon]

Don't agree with them, don't play with them.

Just state which ones you aren't considering before the battle of course.

Find someone who agrees won't be as easy, but just because they are Standard it doesn't mean you HAVE TO play with them.

[Nenäpää]

I have something to add:
Some of these rules i disagree
Species clause
Some Teams might benifit from 2 pokemon of the same i'd understand if teams had 3 blisseys i would adjust it to no more then 2 of the same pokemon.
Hax items
The items are useful these increase the 'luck' of the pokemon hopefully this will take some of the popularity away from choice items and leftovers.
Also if you want to ban luck adjusting items why not ban luck abillities
Adjusting your luck can be a tactic so banning these items is banning a tactic
Species clause accepted? O_O Have you thought, that it ruins some tactics as well, since usually people will have only one pokemon to counter one pokemon? When it's down, you'll have easy time against your opponent with another powerful sweeper. For example Azelf, who lures out Blissey and explodes. Then you send in another Azelf... This is pretty similar if you'd have for Alakazam in the place of second Azelf, but you get the point. Actually not so good example, since Azelf, Alakazam and Gengar are pretty similar, but think the same situation with two similar pokemons that can't explode.

What's wrong with choice items and leftovers? Using choice items tells about tactic, since they need good predictioning. Luck items just don't, because they are pretty cheap if you consider them against other items (consider: quick claw vs. choice scarf or focus band vs. focus sash), and only tactic I can imagine would be like Absol with superluck, scope lens and night slash. Or Togekiss with king's rock. Tactic isn't really so good tactic if it depends from luck.

Luck abilities could be pretty hard to ban: does this mean that Garchomp should be banned? Also I think losing an ability is a bigger loss than losing an item, so some rare superluck pokes aren't so big deal. Also since these are the standard rules, it's easier to accept for example Togekiss with serene grace than someone else with king's rock, because it can be taken account when building a team. (Since nobody expects to run on king rock)

[phantom1113]

Some of these rules i disagree
Species clause
Some Teams might benifit from 2 pokemon of the same i'd understand if teams had 3 blisseys i would adjust it to no more then 2 of the same pokemon.
I disagree here
You can't beat 5 garchomp when sadstorm is in play, it has no counter only things that revenge kill it, just impossible
or having 2 mence's (band and specs) can kill the oponont because it doesnt know who of them you've send out now, it'd be to hard to counter.

ofcourse they'd benefit from it, but it would be very very very hard to counter in most cases

[Volteon]

Not to say even Game Freak adds the Species Clause in their games since G/S (No R/B because there was no competitive place).

[phantom1113]

Not to say even Game Freak adds the Species Clause in their games since G/S (No R/B because there was no competitive place).

true aswell. but mostly GF doesn't really make the rules for competative battling, players do

[Nenäpää]

I disagree here
You can't beat 5 garchomp when sadstorm is in play, it has no counter only things that revenge kill it, just impossible
or having 2 mence's (band and specs) can kill the oponont because it doesnt know who of them you've send out now, it'd be to hard to counter.

ofcourse they'd benefit from it, but it would be very very very hard to counter in most casesActually Dugtrio only said he'd accept two Garchomps. But I agree with you in the later example.
Not to say even Game Freak adds the Species Clause in their games since G/S (No R/B because there was no competitive place).
Actually that's not too good argument, it just like: "someone else just told me so". ;) A wise man listens nothing without justifications.

[Kuraudo]

well tyvm for answering my Question about how to know if they are using haX items ^.^

[Luigix27]

Can't remember where I saw this one.

Flinch Clause

Most likely because of Togekiss' Serene Grace with Air Slash...Which has made Togekiss pure Pwnage

[Kukilunestar]

I dont know if this has been answered or not, but what if you have 2 of the same pokemon, but they have diffrent stats and moves. For exsample, I have Two Dragonites One is a Powerhouse, but misses easily. The other is weaker, but strikes fast and true. does the rule still apply?

[Volteon]

Let's make a team!

Garchomp - Choice Scarf
Earthquake
Outrage
Fire Blast
Crunch

Garchomp - Life Orb/Yache
Swords Dance
Fire Fang
Earthquake
Dragon Claw

Garchomp - Choice Band
Earthquake
Dragon Claw
Fire Blast
Stone Edge

Garchomp - Life Orb
Swords Dance
Draco Meteor
Earthquake
Fire Blast

Garchomp - Choice specs (O_o?)
Fire Blast
Draco Meteor
Hidden Power something
Surf?

and... something (Tyranitar?)

All serves for diferent purposes, all have diferent stats and moves, fair battle of course!

Species Clause has been and will always be standard.

...unless someone (no names) gets drunk and everyone else agrees.

[randomspot555]

I dont know if this has been answered or not, but what if you have 2 of the same pokemon, but they have diffrent stats and moves. For exsample, I have Two Dragonites One is a Powerhouse, but misses easily. The other is weaker, but strikes fast and true. does the rule still apply?

Use another Pokemon for it. There aren't many Pokemon, if any, that can be all a team needs: utility wall, physical wall, special defense wall, physical sweeper , special sweeper, physical tank, special tank, and so on.

[Ghost-Fanatic]

wait so if i agree to let my opponent to use what they want does that mean i can too?? or do we have to follow these rules all the time?

[randomspot555]

wait so if i agree to let my opponent to use what they want does that mean i can too?? or do we have to follow these rules all the time?

You can follow whatever rules you and your opponent agree to. But these are the standard rules that most competitive battlers automatically follow. Some communities where battling isn't as emphasized, like Serebii, may follow different rules or not care as much. Or if there is a themed battle, like ubers or baby pokemon, different clauses may be enacted.

[Menx]

When setting up a battle do you have to use thease rules? and are you allowed to make your own rules for battles you set up?

[randomspot555]

When setting up a battle do you have to use thease rules? and are you allowed to make your own rules for battles you set up?

Unless someone has developed mind control powers, no one can make you follow these rules in your own random battles. However, this thread is here so when someone says "Looking for a standard rules battle" people don't have to go "durrr w8t r tey??!?!?@?"

[dragoniteKnight]

When setting up a battle do you have to use thease rules? and are you allowed to make your own rules for battles you set up?
no, these are standerd rules so people dont have to repeatly type, if you want to battle with ubers, hax items, ect you can, just when saying looking for a battle POST any rules for battling you, these rules are standard, so if you want these rules just say standard rules

[Namikaze]

Quick question. so its ok to use scope lens and razor claw in no luck item battles right?

and brightpowder isnt a luck item. it lowers accuracy as soon as the opkemon holding it enters battle.

[PokeProMaster]

Quick question. so its ok to use scope lens and razor claw in no luck item battles right?

and brightpowder isnt a luck item. it lowers accuracy as soon as the opkemon holding it enters battle.

Bright Powder is a hax item and is not allowed if you and your challenger's agree to no hax item.

Why you ask? well its been answered so many times and the reason is because it IS a luck item. It is a luck item because it lowers the accuracy of your opponents attacks including moves with a 100 accuracy rating (thunderbolt for example). So if you give bright powder to lets say, gyarados and your opponent sends in a gengar and uses thunderbolt, but misses because of bright powder and gyarados then KO's the gengar, it is unfair because without the bright powder the gyarados would have pretty much been a 100% certain OHKO (unless the gengar has been EV'ed incorrectly and wrong nature etc).

so yeah, bright powder is one of the few hax/luck based items. it mainly got banned because garchomps used to run them and in a sandstorm with the ability sand veil activated and holding the item bright powder, garchomps become darn hard to hit.

[Namikaze]

k. thnx for answering.

[Jacol Beyros]

does having a scyther and a scizor on the same team break the species clause?

[Blazios]

does having a scyther and a scizor on the same team break the species clause?

No.

10LandmasterLimit.

[starterlover1]

Quick question about the sleep clause:

Say a Natural Cure pokemon is put to sleep, and it switches out. Is the opponent allowed to sleep another pokemon? I would assume that the answer is no, since that assumes that Natural Cure is the nature.

[Blazios]

I think that you wouldn't be able to, until the Pokémon switched back in and it became clear that it had Natural Cure.

[BaldWombat]

Quick question about the sleep clause:

Say a Natural Cure pokemon is put to sleep, and it switches out. Is the opponent allowed to sleep another pokemon? I would assume that the answer is no, since that assumes that Natural Cure is the nature.

If it switched out and there was no greyed out pokeball for that team, you could assume that it had natural cure because none of their pokemon have any status effects.

[starterlover1]

^Thanks for clearing that up.

[Mauru]

I am really beginning to question this "rules"

[Shard 567]

I am really beginning to question this "rules"

You don't have to go by these rules if you do not wish. Simply make a thread that states that anything goes and problem solved. Though I guarantee that you'll find it difficult to find someone who will play you if standard clauses aren't in affect (Unless their new or simply don't like the standard clauses or something)

[Mauru]

I was very surprised when I found this in this community, I mean using legends is of course a very big disadvantage for people, but making up a bunch of "rules" that don't even Nintendo created, what is with that? who created this "rules"?, they are not even representative of all the people here, the Pokémon pearl and diamond should be played as they were intended to be, not with a extra bunch of made up rules made by some people wish they even't care what other people thought about them, Pokémon battles should be spontaneous and full of creativity, not restrictive and limited, many people, I bet a lot think like I do but is easier just to follow along, but I will do something about this, I will create a thread if is necessary with no little "rules" aside from those created from the game.

And less face it, it is a lot less fun with these rules and puts on a disadvantage to some people and into advantage to others and the latter are the ones wanting to keep this status quo.

[Hauntershadow92]

I was very surprised when I found this in this community, I mean using legends is of course a very big disadvantage for people, but making up a bunch of "rules" that don't even Nintendo created, what is with that? who created this "rules"?, they are not even representative of all the people here, the Pokémon pearl and diamond should be played as they were intended to be, not with a extra bunch of made up rules made by some people wish they even care what other people thought about them, Pokémon battles should be spontaneous and full of creativity, not restrictive and limited, many people, I bet a lot think like I do but is easier just to follow along, but I will do something about this, I will create a thread if is necessary with no little "rules" aside from those created from the game.
Actually, In PBR Nintendo does use all of the rules. Well most of them at least. And like Shard said, they aren't mandatory, you can choose not to use them. But most people choose to use them.

[Mauru]

Actually, In PBR Nintendo does use all of the rules. Well most of them at least. And like Shard said, they aren't mandatory, you can choose not to use them. But most people choose to use them.

I have PBR and they dont' have the evasion rule or whatever rules, just the legendary one and another two or three that I miss but in here, there is a long list! what next? "You cannot hit a pokemon twice?" I wouldn't really be suprised.

C'mon people! you know a lot of you here don't like this rules within rules speak up, I will support you.

sorry for the double post, my internet was going slow and I clicked post two times.

[Mr.Ralts]

I have PBR and they dont' have the evasion rule or whatever rules, just the legendary one and another two or three that I miss but in here, there is a long list! what next? "You cannot hit a pokemon twice?" I wouldn't really be suprised.

C'mon people! you know a lot of you here don't like this rules within rules speak up, I will support you.

sorry for the double post, my internet was going slow and I clicked post two times.

No problem, just delete it. Also, I as well as the majority of the others here agree with the rules. Moves like Double Team an Minimize were not really good moves to put in the game in the first place. Nintendo made a mistake and we're just fixing it.

[randomspot555]

^^^These rules aren't just tossed up randomly. They make a lot of sense and some can even be traced back to Gen I. In many of the games, you can set up rules for competitive play. The Battle Tower bans many of the same Pokemon that are listed in the uber tier.

"No legends" isn't an accurate description of standard rules , as indeed legends are allowed. "Uber" legends, which are overpowered, aren't and are usually only battled within their own tier. A properly trained Mewtwo can just sweep a team of Pokemon below it's tier.

Evasion moves are really cheap, as are luck items (quick claw, focus band). Get into the upper levels of the battle tower and you'll know what I mean. Something using an evasion move 10 times makes it almost impossible to hit. A focus band once worked for a battle tower Crawdaunt FOUR TIMES IN A ROW. Quick Claw can make the slowest Pokemon go amazingly fast. The game already relies a lot on luck, you don't need even more.

As for sleep clause, I used to play without it. Then someone put out Golbat and Gengar and just put an entire team to sleep. That's not strategy. That's just cheap.

Again, you don't have to play by these rules. Many don't. But these are the most commonly accepted and logical rules. This community isn't so much about battling, but 90% of the serious battling communities out there follow these to a T.

You say you want battles to be creative, and these rules foster creative battling. Otherwise it comes down to who has the fastest evader and who can put the other team to sleep first, which isn't strategy, it's just cheap.

[Mauru]

^^^These rules aren't just tossed up randomly. They make a lot of sense and some can even be traced back to Gen I. In many of the games, you can set up rules for competitive play. The Battle Tower bans many of the same Pokemon that are listed in the uber tier.

"No legends" isn't an accurate description of standard rules , as indeed legends are allowed. "Uber" legends, which are overpowered, aren't and are usually only battled within their own tier. A properly trained Mewtwo can just sweep a team of Pokemon below it's tier.

Evasion moves are really cheap, as are luck items (quick claw, focus band). Get into the upper levels of the battle tower and you'll know what I mean. Something using an evasion move 10 times makes it almost impossible to hit. A focus band once worked for a battle tower Crawdaunt FOUR TIMES IN A ROW. Quick Claw can make the slowest Pokemon go amazingly fast. The game already relies a lot on luck, you don't need even more.

As for sleep clause, I used to play without it. Then someone put out Golbat and Gengar and just put an entire team to sleep. That's not strategy. That's just cheap.

Again, you don't have to play by these rules. Many don't. But these are the most commonly accepted and logical rules. This community isn't so much about battling, but 90% of the serious battling communities out there follow these to a T.

You say you want battles to be creative, and these rules foster creative battling. Otherwise it comes down to who has the fastest evader and who can put the other team to sleep first, which isn't strategy, it's just cheap.

"Cheap" what a vague and subjective word to be useful, these rules limit the gameplay and if they are really "Cheap" nintendo would not have created them in the first place.

[Mr.Ralts]

^^^These rules aren't just tossed up randomly. They make a lot of sense and some can even be traced back to Gen I. In many of the games, you can set up rules for competitive play. The Battle Tower bans many of the same Pokemon that are listed in the uber tier.

"No legends" isn't an accurate description of standard rules , as indeed legends are allowed. "Uber" legends, which are overpowered, aren't and are usually only battled within their own tier. A properly trained Mewtwo can just sweep a team of Pokemon below it's tier.

Evasion moves are really cheap, as are luck items (quick claw, focus band). Get into the upper levels of the battle tower and you'll know what I mean. Something using an evasion move 10 times makes it almost impossible to hit. A focus band once worked for a battle tower Crawdaunt FOUR TIMES IN A ROW. Quick Claw can make the slowest Pokemon go amazingly fast. The game already relies a lot on luck, you don't need even more.

As for sleep clause, I used to play without it. Then someone put out Golbat and Gengar and just put an entire team to sleep. That's not strategy. That's just cheap.


Again, you don't have to play by these rules. Many don't. But these are the most commonly accepted and logical rules. This community isn't so much about battling, but 90% of the serious battling communities out there follow these to a T.

You say you want battles to be creative, and these rules foster creative battling. Otherwise it comes down to who has the fastest evader and who can put the other team to sleep first, which isn't strategy, it's just cheap.

Thank you. That's exactly what I want say.
Edit: Not everything nintendo does is right. They do make mistakes and this is one of them.

[Mauru]

Thank you. That's exactly what I want say.

If you put all those long "made up rules" the gameplay and choices are narrowed and less likely of people being flexible, not all of course try to sleep all their oponent pokemon, some put to sleep a pokemon to perfom an awsome strategy, I don't see the CPU in pokemon following this "made up rules"

[Mr.Ralts]

What awesome strategy? You put a pokemon to sleep,dt until they wake up,put them back to sleep, then dt some more. What a creative strategy!(I'm obviously being sarcastic.)

[Mauru]

What awesome strategy? You put a pokemon to sleep,dt until they wake up,put them back to sleep, then dt some more. What a creative strategy!(I'm obviously being sarcastic.)

You can put pokemon to sleep to rise your stats, lower your opponent, change pokemon without being hitted, charge for solar beam etc...should I say more?

If you geeks want to play with this made up rules, fine, I am not, I am playing by the original rules of the game.

[Mr.Ralts]

You can put pokemon to sleep to rise your stats, lower your opponent, change pokemon without being hitted, charge for solar beam etc...should I say more?

If you geeks want to play with this made up rules, fine, I am not, I am playing by the original rules of the game.

Obviously you don't do that since you're complaining about not being allowed to dt or to put as many pokemon as you want to sleep. I guess many officials are geeks too since they have rules. So are teachers,your parents, you probably have some rules too(no legendaries) that don't make sense so I guess your a geek.

[Mauru]

Obviously you don't do that since you're complaining about not being allowed to dt or to put as many pokemon as you want to sleep. I guessmany officials are geeks too since they have rules. So are teachers,your parents, you probably have some rules too(no legendaries) that don't make sense so I guess your a geek.


Ho ho ho ho, putting rules within a game with rules, ha ha ha ha!! have you seen in this way?

well, I don't care, I am not going to be here anymore anyway.

[randomspot555]

"Cheap" what a vague and subjective word to be useful, these rules limit the gameplay and if they are really "Cheap" nintendo would not have created them in the first place.

If all you have to respond to my well thought out, and somewhat long post, is to nitpick at one word, then my conversation with you is over.

EDIT: lol at geek. I guess if you don't know what to say in a good discussion, throw insults!

[Mauru]

If all you have to respond to my well thought out, and somewhat long post, is to nitpick at one word, then my conversation with you is over.

EDIT: lol at geek. I guess if you don't know what to say in a good discussion, throw insults!


Oooh, what should I have said to your post full of opinions and not facts? you people have such shacky self-esteem that get all worked up for calling you geek, but...oh well..

I in my opinion consider some of the rules necessary and proper but I consider banning none legendary pokemon (wobuffet) and banning whole set of moves, going overboard, NINTENDO CREATED THEM FOR SOME REASON! I am abandoning this community and play by the GAME RULES not by some rules created by some internet people, I am going to listen to the creator of the game or some random people? guess the answer is obvious.

[randomspot555]

Oooh, what should I have said to your post full of opinions and not facts? you people have such shacky self-esteem that get all worked up for calling you geek, but...oh well..

I in my opinion consider some of the rules necessary and proper but I consider banning none legendary pokemon (wobuffet) and banning whole set of moves, going overboard, NINTENDO CREATED THEM FOR SOME REASON! I am abandoning this community and play by the GAME RULES not by some rules created by some internet people, I am going to listen to the creator of the game or some random people? guess the answer is obvious.

OH wow, you're such a rebel!

Your post is just opinion too. Get off your high horse and stop hurling insults like a 10 year old.

But if you really want to discuss these rules, I'd suggest heading over to Smogon and using Shoddy Battle. They came up with the rules because they are pretty much the most experienced and smartest competitive battlers out there.

And you keep saying that you're going to leave this place....but you keep coming back? Guess that I won't be hearing a response from you.

[Volteon]

Huhhh, this is getting annoying >_>

This is all about competitive play (As many already said)
These rules are implemented to make the game the least luck based, and more focus on strategy. This explains already half of the Standard Rules.
Then we have Sleep Clause. Making opponent have just one Pokémon asleep simply because making the entire opponent side aslee is completely skill-less, also completely takes off the prediction part of the game - which is where competitive focuses too. So, asleep moves are possible, and if you think a little, you CAN have two or more Pokémon from the other side asleep even playing under standard rules (and yes, excluding Rest sleep).
Ubers is for obvious reasons, they have selected the Pokémon that would overcentralize the game if they were used in standard play, so they were put in a side list - this doesn't mean you cannot use Ubers, you can, but just against Ubers! Or the battles would be too stupid, that's why tiers were created.

And, I think something you skipped, only the first 8 rules are the standard ones (Actually, 2 aren't even really considered rules, no Disconnecting or No Hacks, these are obvious).

So saying again, Standard rules is only to make the game the least luck based, if you don't like them, don't use them! It's so simple!
If you want a luck based game, go play jan-ken-pon with your tamagotchi.