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Eszett
24th January 2008, 1:00 AM
This is a debate between MistyLover and Carlisle on the subject of gay marriage.

ONLY THE ABOVE MENTIONED USERS AND THE MODERATORS MAY POST IN THIS THREAD. ANY OTHER POSTS WILL RESULT IN AN INFRACTION FOR SPAMMING.

And, of course, all standard rules apply.

Carlisle
24th January 2008, 1:40 AM
Kay. So I'll say my stance.


To your point that a gay shouldn't marry because "they'd face ridicual and be targets of vicious attacks" was just idiotic. One, gays already face ridicule and have been attacked, just like any minority group. Marriage wouldn't change that, especially since there are gays who are ALREADY married. ._.
By your stance, blacks should still be in slavery and women in the kitchen, because they never should have gone through the prejudice and hate thrown against them.

Two, it's a matter of civil rights. Gays are humans, too. The only reason against it is religious, and that would violate separation of church and state. Who marries who is no one's business and people need to get over that.

MistyLover
24th January 2008, 1:18 PM
Kay. So I'll say my stance.


To your point that a gay shouldn't marry because "they'd face ridicual and be targets of vicious attacks" was just idiotic. One, gays already face ridicule and have been attacked, just like any minority group. Marriage wouldn't change that, especially since there are gays who are ALREADY married. ._.
By your stance, blacks should still be in slavery and women in the kitchen, because they never should have gone through the prejudice and hate thrown against them.

Two, it's a matter of civil rights. Gays are humans, too. The only reason against it is religious, and that would violate separation of church and state. Who marries who is no one's business and people need to get over that.

True, Gays have been ridiculed and attacked to an extreme and alarming amount, and marriage is going to increase it. And gays should NEVER be parents to any child, all they'll do is humiliate their child even more and the child will be shunned from society, there's no doubt about that. No, blacks should not be in slavery nor should women be in the kitchen. But blacks/woman have something huge on their side that Gays have against. Religion.

Religion, obviously, does not support Gays. To be realistic, anyone who is a true Muslim/Christian/Jew should not be supporting Gay rights, either. If you'e true and loyal to your religion, then supporting Gays doesn't. Which means you're questioning your religion, and by questioning your religion, you're questioning God himself.

Carlisle
24th January 2008, 2:26 PM
You shouldn't be imposing religion on someone. That's just bigotry, and a violation of something called separation of church and state. I don't believe in any god, so someone can tell me god is a tap dancing fairy for all I care.


Your comment saying marriage will increase hostility towards gays. You can't just make that accusation. Give me proof of that. You can't prove that suddenly people are going to snap. Do you really think a child will be ridiculed to the extreme if they're gay? Yes, they might get bullied, but children get bullied for anything. What would you do if in an all black community, two parents adopted a white child. There would be tension with that, so should not that be allowed?

And if I'm correct, religion was used against blacks and women. The Bible itself states that woman should be covered and not go to church. Bible verses were used against blacks back in the day.

If the only argument is "people will be mean" then by that logic, no one should ever leave the house because someone might be "mean."

MistyLover
25th January 2008, 12:28 AM
I normally wouldn't impose religion on someone, actually, I never would, but on topic about Gays, I'm going to have to. It's because of religion I don't support gay rights. Well, that's what's different between us, Clarise, you don't believe in God, but I do.

You want proof of Gays being ridiculed even more if they get married? A person that's deemed "gay" is ridiculed and teased at so much, and how can you not expect it to increase with a gay marriage? I will be startled if you've never seen a gay being ridiculed.

Yes, I definitely think that a gay child will be ridiculed to the extreme. Yes, children get bullied for anything, but bullied because they're gay is far worse then being for being something like a nerd/geek. Listen, people would be MUCH more accepting to Black parents adopting a white than someone being gay. You know it.

Believe me, there'll always be Gay haters in the world.

Carlisle
25th January 2008, 12:53 AM
Believe me, I know. I am bi and openly like men.

Thanks for telling me I should be treated like a second class citizen. I can stand up for myself and face discrimination by myself. What do you propose I do if I want to marry a man? Get over it and marry my chair?

I don't care if you believe in God. God doesn't belong in the government. SEPARATION OF CHURCH_AND_STATE.

And I'm still looking for proof on gay marriage increasing discrimination towards gays. There is no difference between a gay couple and a married gay couple. I know married gay people and they don't face experience discrimination normally, and if they do it's not increased because "they have a binding contract saying they are together by law!" Gay marriage is already around, I don't see discrimination increasing. In fact, I see less and less and more and more people throw religion back into the trash can.

Besides, why would it matter if the child got made fun of? I rather be a child who gets made fun of than be one starving in Africa and dying from AIDs.

And if you don't support gays because of religion, you might as well not support women. The Bible after all says they should not be allowed to speak and be covered. Guess Emma Watson should get thrown in the kitchen where she belongs, right? :)
Please, don't be the standard Christian or whatever and pick and choose whatever verse from whatever holy book suits you best.

MistyLover
25th January 2008, 2:40 PM
I'm not saying you should be treated like a second-class citizen. Sure, you can face discrimination, but it will be extremely tiring and depressing after a while. You wouldn't like to go to work where everyone teases you?

Of course, God doesn't belong in the Government. But he is the supreme ruler of the Universe. And in my eyes: Supreme Ruler of the Universe > President of America, etc

Why would it matter if the child got made fun of? WHY WOULD IT MATTER?! WHY WOULD IT MATTER?! So if you do get married to a man (Heaven forbid), and decide to adopt a child, you wouldn't care that he actually gets bullied and ridiculed? You wouldn't care that he'll have no friends, that he's shunned from society, that people will torture his emotions and that there's a large chance for him to be depressed. And there's no one to blame but you and your-possible-husband. And you ask why would it matter? Where are your emotions, Carlisle? Where are they?

I'm a huge supporter of feminism. But Emma Watson hasn't been thrown in the kitchen, has he? She's a rich, famous teenager who'll soon be going to Cambridge to complete her studies. Second of all, I'm Muslim and that Islam (has been revealed by the very religious, who study the core of Islam and the Qur'an) that women are allowed rights. And it said that there's no difference between a white or black man. All are equal.

Carlisle
25th January 2008, 2:49 PM
I'm not saying you should be treated like a second-class citizen. Sure, you can face discrimination, but it will be extremely tiring and depressing after a while. You wouldn't like to go to work where everyone teases you?

Of course, God doesn't belong in the Government. But he is the supreme ruler of the Universe. And in my eyes: Supreme Ruler of the Universe > President of America, etc

Why would it matter if the child got made fun of? WHY WOULD IT MATTER?! WHY WOULD IT MATTER?! So if you do get married to a man (Heaven forbid), and decide to adopt a child, you wouldn't care that he actually gets bullied and ridiculed? You wouldn't care that he'll have no friends, that he's shunned from society, that people will torture his emotions and that there's a large chance for him to be depressed. And there's no one to blame but you and your-possible-husband. And you ask why would it matter? Where are your emotions, Carlisle? Where are they?

I'm a huge supporter of feminism. But Emma Watson hasn't been thrown in the kitchen, has he? She's a rich, famous teenager who'll soon be going to Cambridge to complete her studies. Second of all, I'm Muslim and that Islam (has been revealed by the very religious, who study the core of Islam and the Qur'an) that women are allowed rights. And it said that there's no difference between a white or black man. All are equal.
Well, Islam is the same religion that demand women be covered and any non-Christians be killed. The Quaran says it itself. :) Oh and lets see, Islam is the same religion that punishes a woman if she gets raped! YES. FREEDOM BE DAMNED! MY PERSONAL RELIGION SHOULD BE FORCED UPON EVERYONE EVEN IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN IT!

LOLOLOLOL. It would be my fault if my child got bullied. No. It would be the other parent's for not teaching their kids respect and tolerance. Have you ever met kids with gay parents? There are plenty, and they just get on fine. I don't know what's with you, but you seem to think that if you're gay you'll endlessly bullied and harassed. FYI, gays normally don't get harassed THAT much. There's like 35 gay people I can count outright in my school. And I only go to a school of 400. And yeah. No one teases them.

Four people have alreadying sent me PMs applauding my debate against your, what they called "ignorant views."
If your only argument against two people getting married is "they'll get made fun of", that's pretty sad.
Marriage doesn't even have any value anymore. Half of all marriages fail now a days. Marriage completely lost its meaning after divorce was thrown in.

MistyLover
25th January 2008, 2:58 PM
Well, Islam is the same religion that demand women be covered and any non-Christians be killed. The Quaran says it itself. :) Oh and lets see, Islam is the same religion that punishes a woman if she gets raped! YES. FREEDOM BE DAMNED! MY PERSONAL RELIGION SHOULD BE FORCED UPON EVERYONE EVEN IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN IT!

LOLOLOLOL. It would be my fault if my child got bullied. No. It would be the other parent's for not teaching their kids respect and tolerance. Have you ever met kids with gay parents? There are plenty, and they just get on fine. I don't know what's with you, but you seem to think that if you're gay you'll endlessly bullied and harassed. FYI, gays normally don't get harassed THAT much. There's like 35 gay people I can count outright in my school. And I only go to a school of 400. And yeah. No one teases them.

Four people have alreadying sent me PMs applauding my debate against your, what they called "ignorant views."
If your only argument against two people getting married is "they'll get made fun of", that's pretty sad.
Marriage doesn't even have any value anymore. Half of all marriages fail now a days. Marriage completely lost its meaning after divorce was thrown in.

Get your facts straight next time, Carlisle, Islam did not say that all non-Muslims be killed. Never did. Actually, it's said to hold the utmost respect for Christians and Jews.

Tons of kids have respect and tolerance but still make fun of Gays. You must be very naive to think that if the child is brought up well, he/she won't make fun of Gays. Actually, I've met a couple of kids who have gay parents and they told me, and I quote, "I'm not gonna tell them because I don't want to be bullied nor do I want to be hated".

People probably have been getting the wrong impression from me, I do not hate gays whatsoever. Nor would I abandon my friend if he/she is gay. I'm just saying that I don't support Gay MARRIAGE, and I don't support them adopting kids.

Marriage has a lot of value, my friend. Just because divorce was made, does NOT mean marriage lost its value.

Carlisle
25th January 2008, 3:02 PM
Ah, but the general people have lost value of marriage.
Then tell me, what do you think of gays in the military or writing books?

And of course there a couple of kids who wouldn't tell. I'm not expecting everyone to hold a parade for being gay because tolerance hasn't reached that point. It's also more of an area thing. San Fransico would clearly be more gay tolerant than let's say some random rural area in Mississippi. And two, if you're respectful and tolerant, yeah, you don't make fun of people.

And I'll make sure to get my facts straight and look up some Quaran verses.

MistyLover
25th January 2008, 3:07 PM
Ah, but the general people have lost value of marriage.
Then tell me, what do you think of gays in the military or writing books?

And of course there a couple of kids who wouldn't tell. I'm not expecting everyone to hold a parade for being gay because tolerance hasn't reached that point. It's also more of an area thing. San Fransico would clearly be more gay tolerant than let's say some random rural area in Mississippi. And two, if you're respectful and tolerant, yeah, you don't make fun of people.

And I'll make sure to get my facts straight and look up some Quaran verses.

Listen, I don't care whatsoever if Gays are in the military or writing books. I really don't. We're debating about Gay MARRIAGE (which I'm against).

Yeah, San Fransisco is known to have tons of gays. Even if you're respectful and tolerant, that doesn't make you an angel. You will make fun of someone, that's a given.

And when you said that if a muslim woman gets raped, SHE gets punished. That is a pile of utter bullocks. The woman would NEVER get punished for that. NEVER. I think there's a site called www.islamicity.com that would explain a lot, it has excellent information.

Carlisle
25th January 2008, 3:12 PM
Then explain to me all the publicized cases in Saudi Arabia where women get gang raped and then they get lashes and jail time?

And have you ever though gay marriage is really none of your business? It doesn't affect you at all. What are you going to do when it gets legalized in America, cry and cut?

MistyLover
25th January 2008, 3:18 PM
Then explain to me all the publicized cases in Saudi Arabia where women get gang raped and then they get lashes and jail time?

And have you ever though gay marriage is really none of your business? It doesn't affect you at all. What are you going to do when it gets legalized in America, cry and cut?

That's Saudi Arabia, and I had no idea that happens. Saudi Arabia is the only Muslim country that's like that, and is very often frowned upon by every other Muslim country.

Actually, Gay Marriage can affect the people the person's related to very much. If the family is somewhat reluctant about Gays, and their son gets married to a man, they'll feel quite ashamed and they know that people are talking about them.

Not too long ago, two women were having a lesbian wedding, they went to their neighboors, asked them if they'd like to join the wedding. The teenagers opened the door, giggled like crazy and slammed the door on their face.

Carlisle
25th January 2008, 3:25 PM
Congrats to them. If it's family, it's family. No one needs to be getting into other's personal family affairs unless abuse is involved somewhere. Which then the person doesn't get involved, they call Social Services and have them investigate. And if they know others are talking, they shouldn't care. If a father loves his son he'll support him no matter what. If a child wanted to be a gay garbage man, and they're completely happy about their lives, no one has a right to say anything about it.

And no. Have you taken a look at the Middle East? Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. They're not very friendly towards women's rights and other religions. Even North Korea, a non Islam country, you get killed for having a religion.

MistyLover
25th January 2008, 3:31 PM
Congrats to them. If it's family, it's family. No one needs to be getting into other's personal family affairs unless abuse is involved somewhere. Which then the person doesn't get involved, they call Social Services and have them investigate. And if they know others are talking, they shouldn't care. If a father loves his son he'll support him no matter what. If a child wanted to be a gay garbage man, and they're completely happy about their lives, no one has a right to say anything about it.

And no. Have you taken a look at the Middle East? Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. They're not very friendly towards women's rights and other religions. Even North Korea, a non Islam country, you get killed for having a religion.

Carlisle, I'm from Kuwait, and we have women in the Ministry, Government, and Parliment, etc. In Kuwait, we are very open minded and we support women rights through and through. Iran / Pakistan / Saudi Arabia are the only ones who have problems with it, I don't see any other Middle Eastern countries who have a problem with women.

And yes, it's family. Imagine the emberassement of a woman telling her friends that her son married a man. You see, that's the problem with you, you think that people are oblivious to what others say about them. That's not true. If someone wrote an article about you on the internet, you would want to read it out of curiousity, and if it's something bad, you'd be affected. You wouldn't like someone writing bad stuff about you on the internet where millions and millions of people could view.

Carlisle
26th January 2008, 6:03 PM
Kay. I had Quaran verses but I accidentally deleted them. :(

Edit: Found them!

Quran tells us to: "not to make friends with Jews and Christians" (5:51), fight them "until they pay the Jizya (a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" ( 9:29). "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" ( 9:5).

It says that the "non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water" (14:17). It asks the Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut off the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter" (5:34). And tells us that "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (22:19-22) and that they not only will have "disgrace in this life, on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)" (22:9).

As for women, the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises men to take a green branch and beat their wives, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal rights, it decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that.

So long, Emma Watson!

You don't think imposing religion is alright, but you want to force it into the government. That's hypocrisy. You can't pick and choose which verses are good or not.

And it's not the government's job to make laws to restrict rights or make laws to protect people from "bullying." The government should involve next to nothing with people's personal lives, not a person's life style, way of life, etc. Nor should it be imposing religion or ANYTHING. It's job is to run our country, protect us, take care of crime, but NOT tell us how to live our lifestyle.

Carlisle
28th January 2008, 4:07 PM
Well, I'm still waiting for a reply.

MistyLover
28th January 2008, 7:06 PM
Hold on, I'll have a reply by tomorrow. I'm gathering information. Yes, I actually do have good evidence to oppose you properly. I never back down from a debate unless I know the fight's been lost.

Carlisle
29th January 2008, 5:01 AM
OK, then. I don't see how there can be evidence against gay marriage, but sure. Try and have some fun.

Also, I'd also like you to respond to those Quaran verses I posted. Religion at its best, eh?

MistyLover
29th January 2008, 9:47 PM
Oh Clarisle, I shall not have anything about gays in this post, but I shall defend the women of Islam.

Propher Mohammed (at the time he was a prophet) married a Christian woman named Maria. He wanted peace between them and Allah said that Muslims should respect and befriend Christians and Jews, there is no problem with that at all. The Quran said that Judaism and Christianity are "ahal il kitab". I really can't describe it properly, but it generally means that they come from the same background.

And now I'll present what Islam said about women.

The Twelve Basic Rights Of Women In Islam:

1. The right and duty to obtain education.

2. The right to have their own independent property.

3. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

5. The right to express their opinion and be heard.

6. The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

7. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

8. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him.

9. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

10. The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

11. Custody of their children after divorce.

12. To refuse any marriage that does not please them.


Birth Of A Daughter

In Christianity it says that the "birth of a daughter is a loss." (Ecclesiasticus 22:3) Shockingly, men receive special praise.

What Islam has to say: "When news is brought to one of them of the birth of a female child, his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on contempt or bury her in the dust? Ah! what an evil they decide on?" (16:59).

" To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female children to whomever He wills and bestows male children to whomever He wills" (42:49).

"He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire" (Bukhari and Muslim).

"Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Resurrection Day like this; and he joined his fingers" (Muslim).

Education of Women

"Allah has heard and accepted the statement of the woman who pleads with you (the Prophet) concerning her husband and carries her complaint to Allah, and Allah hears the arguments between both of you for Allah hears and sees all things...." (58:1).

A woman in the Quranic conception has the right to argue even with the Prophet of Islam himself. No one has the right to instruct her to be silent. She is under no obligation to consider her husband the one and only reference in matters of law and religion.

Menstruation

In Judasim and Christianity, concerning menstruating women are unbelievably restrictive.

Due to her "contaminating" nature, a menstruating woman was sometimes "banished" in order to avoid any possibility of any contact with her. She was sent to a special house called "the house of uncleanness" for the whole period of her impurity. 9 The Talmud considers a menstruating woman "fatal" even without any physical contact:

"Our Rabbis taught:....if a menstruant woman passes between two (men), if it is at the beginning of her menses she will slay one of them, and if it is at the end of her menses she will cause strife between them" (bPes. 111a.)

Furthermore, the husband of a menstruous woman was forbidden to enter the synagogue if he had been made unclean by her even by the dust under her feet. A priest whose wife, daughter, or mother was menstruating could not recite priestly blessing in the synagogue.

Lol, now I know why that Jewish women call the menstruation process as "the curse".

Islam does not consider a menstruating woman to possess any kind of "contagious uncleanness". She is neither "untouchable" nor "cursed." She practises her normal life with only one restriction: A married couple are not allowed to have sexual intercourse during the period of menstruation. Any other physical contact between them is permissible. A menstruating woman is exempted from some rituals such as daily prayers and fasting during her period.

BEARING WITNESS!

The Quran in other situations accepts the testimony of a woman as equal to that of a man. In fact the woman's testimony can even invalidate the man's. If a man accuses his wife of unchastity, he is required by the Quran to solemnly swear five times as evidence of the wife's guilt. If the wife denies and swears similarly five times, she is not considered guilty and in either case the marriage is dissolved (24:6-11).

If a man accuses his wife of unchastity, her testimony will not be considered at all according to the Bible. The accused wife has to be subjected to a trial by ordeal. In this trial, the wife faces an extremely humiliating process to prove if she is either innocent or guilty.(Num. 5:11-31). In other words, she has to take off her panties and they have to check her vagina if she's a virgin or not. If she is found guilty after this ordeal, she will be sentenced to death. If she is found not guilty, her husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing. Absolutely ridiculous.

Adultery


Obviously, it's a sin in all religions, but their difference of adultery is very different.

Adultery, according to the Quran, is the involvement of a married man or a married woman in an extramarital affair. The Bible only considers the extramarital affair of a married woman as adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22, Proverbs 6:20-7:27).

The Quran, on the other hand, never considers any woman to be the possession of any man. The Quran bluntly describes the relationship between the spouses by saying:

"And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect" (30:21).


Wife's Property

The wife's property and earnings are under her full control and for her use alone since her, and the children's, maintenance is her husband's responsibility. No matter how rich the wife might be, she is not obliged to act as a co-provider for the family unless she herself voluntarily chooses to do so. Spouses do inherit from one another. Moreover, a married woman in Islam retains her independent legal personality and her family name. An American judge once commented on the rights of Muslim women saying: " A Muslim girl may marry ten times, but her individuality is not absorbed by that of her various husbands. She is a solar planet with a name and legal personality of her own."

"And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, Of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer" (4:4)

Juadesm-Christian tradition, so unlike Islam, allows the husband to have control over his wife. I'm not going to even bother posting reads from the Bible, or else it'll seem that I'm bashing Christianity.

Divorce

Judaism allows the man to divorce his wife just because he dislikes her. The Ecclisiaticus describes the women is "the origin of sin".

Islam has offered the Muslim woman some unequalled rights: she can end the marriage through Khula' and she can sue for a divorce.

Prophet Muhammad has instructed Muslim husbands that they should not have recourse to these measures except in extreme cases such as open lewdness committed by the wife. Even in these cases the punishment should be slight and if the wife desists, the husband is not permitted to irritate her:

"In case they are guilty of open lewdness you may leave them alone in their beds and inflict slight punishment. If they are obedient to you, do not seek against them any means of annoyance" (Tirmidthi)

Muslim men know not to hit their wives, and anyways, no one ever does it to her.

ALSO, the Prophet of Islam has condemned any unjustifiable beating. Some Muslim wives complained to him that their husbands had beaten them. Hearing that, the Prophet categorically stated that:

"Those who do so (beat their wives) are not the best among you" (Abu Dawood).


I'm not done yet, Clarisle, but I do have to leave. However, when I do have time, I shall talk about mothers, polygamy, and the Veil.

As for the Gays, you're right, they don't have the rights to control their lifestyle, but it is hated by too many people in the world right now to allow Gay Marriage. It's inevitable. And yes, imposing religion on Gays is satisfactory as most people who do believe in Christianity / Judasim / Islam will defy with the sacred holy books.

Carlisle
29th January 2008, 10:04 PM
I'm not done yet, Clarisle, but I do have to leave. However, when I do have time, I shall talk about mothers, polygamy, and the Veil.

As for the Gays, you're right, they don't have the rights to control their lifestyle, but it is hated by too many people in the world right now to allow Gay Marriage. It's inevitable. And yes, imposing religion on Gays is satisfactory as most people who do believe in Christianity / Judasim / Islam will defy with the sacred holy books.

Well, you showed some evidence on the Islam thing, but don't bother posting more. I still view it as crap and there's too many people in the Middle East who take it wrongly and use it to abuse women and other minority groups.

OH! I see your logic. PEOPLE'S PERSONAL NEEDS over HUMAN RIGHTS! Tut tut. Black people were too hated, I mean after all, we enslaved them, so we never should have given them rights! Did I mention religion was the reasoning?
And you forget gay marriage or civil unions is a common thing. Let see. Gay marriage is legal in: Canada, Spain, the Netherlands, all of South Africa and Massachusets. Then, civil unions are legal in most of Europe, parts of the US, parts of Mexico, parts of Southern America, New Zealand, and most of Australia.
Tut tut. And I see no riots and increase in hate crimes going on anywhere. Hmmmmmm.

MistyLover
29th January 2008, 10:09 PM
Well, you showed some evidence on the Islam thing, but don't bother posting more. I still view it as crap and there's too many people in the Middle East who take it wrongly and use it to abuse women and other minority groups.

OH! I see your logic. PEOPLE'S PERSONAL NEEDS over HUMAN RIGHTS! Tut tut. Black people were too hated, I mean after all, we enslaved them, so we never should have given them rights! Did I mention religion was the reasoning?
And you forget gay marriage or civil unions is a common thing. Let see. Gay marriage is legal in: Canada, Spain, the Netherlands, all of South Africa and Massachusets. Then, civil unions are legal in most of Europe, parts of the US, parts of Mexico, parts of Southern America, New Zealand, and most of Australia.
Tut tut. And I see no riots and increase in hate crimes going on anywhere. Hmmmmmm.

*GASPS* You view my postings as crap?! And no, Clarisle, not too many people in the Middle East take it wrongly AND if I'm not much mistaken, only Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have that view, not all of them, but some. Blacks are not to be discriminated against in Islam.

And the countries that do allow it make a very small percent of the population. And who said riots and hate crimes are increasing? Some people are too scared and emberassed to tell that they've been getting abused. If everyone was open, you'd see hate crimes and riots literally rocketing upwards.

Carlisle
29th January 2008, 10:32 PM
*GASPS* You view my postings as crap?! And no, Clarisle, not too many people in the Middle East take it wrongly AND if I'm not much mistaken, only Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have that view, not all of them, but some. Blacks are not to be discriminated against in Islam.

And the countries that do allow it make a very small percent of the population. And who said riots and hate crimes are increasing? Some people are too scared and embarrassed to tell that they've been getting abused. If everyone was open, you'd see hate crimes and riots literally rocketing up wards.

No, I called religion crap. Not your's. But all religion. But I would like some sources for it, though. And you forgot to list Iran and Afghanistan. And I wasn't talking about Islam discriminating blacks, I was talking about white Christian America.

And no, by hate crime I mean people getting the crap beat out of them, houses being lit on fire, etc. And I don't see that happening, I'm afraid. Riots don't go unnoticed as well. Two, if anyone has a problem with gay marriage, they need a life, seeing as it doesn't effect them. And no, that doesn't include family, seeing as that actually does effect them. But a random man marrying in Spain doesn't effect you or me. Unless of course it's family. A random man marrying in Spain also doesn't effect you and me.

And the Middle East also isn't very friendly towards gays. The death penalty in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen? Also punishable by death in Mauritania. Tut tut.

Here's a source I have, I'm actually waiting on your's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_homosexuality_laws.svg

MistyLover
29th January 2008, 11:45 PM
No, I called religion crap. Not your's. But all religion. But I would like some sources for it, though. And you forgot to list Iran and Afghanistan. And I wasn't talking about Islam discriminating blacks, I was talking about white Christian America.

And no, by hate crime I mean people getting the crap beat out of them, houses being lit on fire, etc. And I don't see that happening, I'm afraid. Riots don't go unnoticed as well. Two, if anyone has a problem with gay marriage, they need a life, seeing as it doesn't effect them. And no, that doesn't include family, seeing as that actually does effect them. But a random man marrying in Spain doesn't effect you or me. Unless of course it's family. A random man marrying in Spain also doesn't effect you and me.

And the Middle East also isn't very friendly towards gays. The death penalty in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen? Also punishable by death in Mauritania. Tut tut.

Here's a source I have, I'm actually waiting on your's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_homosexuality_laws.svg

People do get the crap beat out of them in their house, it's just no one knows about it. A house may look peaceful and serene from outside, but no one knows what happens behind locked doors.

I'm not surprised that there are death penalties in some countries.

And you want the source where I got all my information on Islam?

Carlisle
29th January 2008, 11:55 PM
People do get the crap beat out of them in their house, it's just no one knows about it. A house may look peaceful and serene from outside, but no one knows what happens behind locked doors.

I'm not surprised that there are death penalties in some countries.

And you want the source where I got all my information on Islam?

Why the hell does that matter? If someone gets the crap beat out of them, someone's going to notice. I would say it's safe to say it's far-fetched to assume that people come into gay people's homes and then beat them up on a regular basis. Get out of your ignorance, please. Gays aren't this horribly treated group, outside of the Middle East of course. Just because homophobia exists doesn't mean most people are "HOMG KILLZ THE GHEYZ! SHUN!" And none of that has anything to do with gay marriage in the first place. Like I said, it's not the government's job to protect the people from "getting their feelings hurt," hate crimes though are another entire sect of laws.

And yes, I want sources.

Eszett
30th January 2008, 4:01 PM
Here's a source I have, I'm actually waiting on your's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_homosexuality_laws.svgI'm not seeing any sort of citation which specifies where this information came from. Could you please provide a more reliable source?

MistyLover
30th January 2008, 9:02 PM
Why the hell does that matter? If someone gets the crap beat out of them, someone's going to notice. I would say it's safe to say it's far-fetched to assume that people come into gay people's homes and then beat them up on a regular basis. Get out of your ignorance, please. Gays aren't this horribly treated group, outside of the Middle East of course. Just because homophobia exists doesn't mean most people are "HOMG KILLZ THE GHEYZ! SHUN!" And none of that has anything to do with gay marriage in the first place. Like I said, it's not the government's job to protect the people from "getting their feelings hurt," hate crimes though are another entire sect of laws.

And yes, I want sources.


It is far-fetch'd that people would go into other people's home, and that wasn't what I had been implying. I'm saying how do you know if the child is not emotionally and maybe physically abused.

"Getting their feelings hurt" is such an under-statement. A lot of hate crimes are for Gays. And Gays are the most bashed people in the world.

Source; http://www.themodernreligion.com/w_main.htm

Carlisle
31st January 2008, 12:03 AM
It is far-fetch'd that people would go into other people's home, and that wasn't what I had been implying. I'm saying how do you know if the child is not emotionally and maybe physically abused.

"Getting their feelings hurt" is such an under-statement. A lot of hate crimes are for Gays. And Gays are the most bashed people in the world.

Source; http://www.themodernreligion.com/w_main.htm

-sigh- You can't make such wild accusations like "they are the most bashed group in the world." You make your claims off of nothing but assumption. Did you know Australia is hugely racist towards black? It depends on where you live. And unless you've visited every single location in the world, don't make such a useless claim.

And I don't know what children have to do with this.

Seriously, you need to provide better reasons than "religion" or "they'll get made fun of." Oh, I forgot. There never were any good reasons on a person being a person.

Eszett
4th February 2008, 8:01 AM
I received a request to lock this from Carlisle. MistyLover, if you wish to continue this, I suggest you PM him - this thread should provide enough content for you to build a solid foundation for your arguments.

Closed.