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aquajet16
21st April 2008, 5:27 AM
Well there are news that some people predict what will happen in the future and are said to be espers. Espers are people who have ESP or Extra Sensory Perception a.k.a the "sixth sense".

So can this be possible? Because there are many instances when I dream of something and it did really happen sooner or later. I always said to myself "Daw nakita ko naman ni?". In English that is, "I think I have seen this before". So this now really freaks me out so I started this topic. So is this possible? or what espers predict are just a mere coincidence?

hevver
21st April 2008, 6:29 AM
Yeah it's kinda like you've seen something before.
I always thought that it's due to reincarnation and all the
dream stuff. I always tell myself "Nakita ko na 'to."
Pinoy ka ba?
haha

Hakajin
21st April 2008, 6:43 AM
Oh, boy, this is my subject. Definitely. People definitely have connections with each other, such as when someone can tell when something bad has happened to a loved one, even if she lives across the country. There's distant viewing, the ability to see locations in your mind's eye; synchronicity, a strong feeling you get that something will occur (even just knowing what song will come up next on the radio)... heck, I'd even call feeling someone staring at the back of your head ESP.

GhostAnime
21st April 2008, 12:31 PM
well, id like some evidence of such a thing. 'good hunches' isnt what i call esp.

The_Panda
21st April 2008, 12:57 PM
Oh, boy, this is my subject. Definitely. People definitely have connections with each other, such as when someone can tell when something bad has happened to a loved one, even if she lives across the country. There's distant viewing, the ability to see locations in your mind's eye; synchronicity, a strong feeling you get that something will occur (even just knowing what song will come up next on the radio)... heck, I'd even call feeling someone staring at the back of your head ESP.

Again I repeat what I said on the truth thread. Perhaps I expect too much, but I have yet to see logical links. But more to the point there's the definition of E.S.P. Quite simply; will we say that E.S.P. implies something supernatural, or could something paranoia originating with no sensational origin be counted as E.S.P.? If we were to say it's anything outside the senses, I would say it probably does exist, in that us as humans dream up things as thoughts and seem to perceive these dreams (whether we see these as dreams or not!) while this has nothing to do with the five senses under a certain definition of perception it could be excepted as E.S.P. (thus we would all be psychic!). May I also note that its the instances where E.S.P. succeeds not when it fails that get reported.


well, id like some evidence of such a thing. 'good hunches' isnt what i call esp.

He's provided his evidence. All he has to do is link it. Oh and what do you call E.S.P. then.

Jazzy
21st April 2008, 1:40 PM
I really doubt that ESP exists. For starters, as you said before, some people "feel" something bad happening to a friend in another country-but is that amazing? If a good friend of mine flew over to America then I would have a feeling they might crash. If they did, I would probably tell everyone, but if I didnt I wouldnt speak up. Ive had a feeling my plane is going to crash before...and it never has. So no I dont believe in ESP of any kind.

Rensch
21st April 2008, 1:44 PM
Coincidences happen, that's life. Some things are really freaky but there are people who tend to interpret many of those things as a supernatural experience.

GhostAnime
21st April 2008, 1:59 PM
He's provided his evidence. All he has to do is link it.i was actually replying to hakajin but those dreams arent evidence of a sixth sense but rather a memory overwrite or pure coincidence.


Oh and what do you call E.S.P. then.something we can actually analyze and test. youd think if it was a 'sixth sense', it could be easily manipulated and reliable as the other senses.

Profesco
21st April 2008, 3:33 PM
I've read somewhere that deja vu and like phenomena are explainable... I'm somewhat fuzzy on the details, but it goes kinda like this:

When an event we are experiencing is slightly similar to something we've experienced before, we may activate and use a neural pathway to record it that has already been used for that previous event. These "overlapping" pathways are what give us the feeling that we've seen this before, or that we know what will happen next.

GhostAnime
21st April 2008, 4:48 PM
yeah, the memory overrite im talking about is pretty much what profesco described.

Strants
21st April 2008, 11:56 PM
I've heard from friends that if you are mad enough, you can move objects with your mind. I've never tested it before, though, so it is of questionable truth.

Also, I believe this has been stated before, when a psychic gets something right, it's big news. Take JFK's assassination; that was predicted, and it got big publicity. But if she had got it wrong, people would have said "thank goodness!" and gone on with their lives. People have also predicted, supposedly using ESP, that the world would end in 1950 in a nuclear holocaust. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the world IS still here, isn't it?

Overall, why do we need to give the mind so much power? In the long term, brain will win over brawn; why does it need to be able to 'see' the future, far off places, etc.? Most test have shown ESP to be doubtable, those that haven't were often flawed. Just though that should be pointed out.

GhostAnime
21st April 2008, 11:59 PM
can you give me more information on that JFK prophet?

Strants
22nd April 2008, 3:50 AM
can you give me more information on that JFK prophet?
Coming right up! The woman in question was Jeane Dixon (http://www.skepdic.com/dixon.html)
As the source points out, she actually thought Richard Nixon would win ;). Also, she predicted a 2000 world peace. It was a pretty short world peace, to say the least.

GhostAnime
22nd April 2008, 3:51 AM
her 2000 prophecy failed yet her JFK murder was correct?

well, her credibility certainly dropped.

Strants
22nd April 2008, 3:56 AM
Dixon also predicted (and this is coming from a book I have entitled ESP) that. . .
-Russia will put the first man on the Moon
-the year 1958 will see the start of WW 3
-a huge comet will strike the earth before the end of the 20th century.
-In 1999 the us will enter a war against russian, and russian missiles will rain down in a nuclear holocaust.

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, I judge by the overall track record.

Blue_Lightning8
22nd April 2008, 3:58 AM
I can't really explain it, but I feel as if there is.

Sometimes, I just get these "vibes" telling me if "this or that" is "good or bad."
Some of you might be able to relate to this, but it happens to me often.

Like with people whom I've never seen in my life before, even heard of, I get this "vibe" if it's someone who I should be associating with. Or whatever.
And yeah, Deja Vu happens with me often, sometimes even more than once of the same thing. I then think to myself "Oh my, I've done this before, should I do something different this time to see what happens?" Haha, I know it all sounds weird and if it's common but I don't think it should be happening this often. You all can say whatever the heck you want but I feel as if there is

Umbreon_13
22nd April 2008, 4:01 AM
i don't see why not but maybe it is a load of crap that people say to make them look cool or maybe it's real who knows

Strants
22nd April 2008, 4:01 AM
nd yeah, Deja Vu happens with me often, sometimes even more than once of the same thing. I then think to myself "Oh my, I've done this before, should I do something different this time to see what happens?"
That's what you study history for, isn't it? You don't try to repeat the same mistakes.

Cutiebunny
22nd April 2008, 4:33 AM
Dixon also predicted (and this is coming from a book I have entitled ESP) that. . .
-Russia will put the first man on the Moon
-the year 1958 will see the start of WW 3
-a huge comet will strike the earth before the end of the 20th century.
-In 1999 the us will enter a war against russian, and russian missiles will rain down in a nuclear holocaust.

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, I judge by the overall track record.


So one idiot fails to make accurate predictions. That's a perfect reason to believe that everyone who claims to have ESP is full of it.

Please.

I don't think that ESP is an oddity, but rather I feel that it does occur often and is quite natural for humans to experience. What I think does happen more often than not is that people doubt what they have seen or don't want to acknowledge it because the Western World has such a stigma against these types of experiences. In societies where the 'supernatural' is not only expected but is heavily incorporated in every day existence, people acknowledge these experiences more often.

In short, it all boils down to stigma. No one wants to be an outcast. It's a fear that's rooted into our most basic needs. We all want to be accepted. So if you live in a society where this type of thing can make you out to be an outcast, it's not something that you'll talk about, even to your most closest confidants. But in areas where people not only acknowledge but elevate those that do have these abilities, you'll find that those that have these experiences will be more comfortable with talking about them.

Ethan
22nd April 2008, 5:27 AM
In short, it all boils down to stigma. No one wants to be an outcast. It's a fear that's rooted into our most basic needs. We all want to be accepted. So if you live in a society where this type of thing can make you out to be an outcast, it's not something that you'll talk about, even to your most closest confidants. But in areas where people not only acknowledge but elevate those that do have these abilities, you'll find that those that have these experiences will be more comfortable with talking about them.

Then again for the most part Western society is more educationally developed than many of your Eastern countries. I'm sure in an isolated village somewhere in the Taiwanese country side there is some fellow that claims he can hear spirits, talk to God, animals, etc. Just because something appears more often on one side of the world doesn't mean the reason you don't see it on the other is a stigma. It's not so much a stigma either, but the attitude has to do with anything not directly verifiable, tested, analyzed, or proven. I mean I always see those movies where the main character gets wrapped into some supernatural endeavor such as being endowed with superhuman strength to having a deal with the devil. Often they end up having to tell a friend and their words are "Well you wouldn't believe me if I told you." Well can you blame them?

Blue_Lightning8
22nd April 2008, 5:46 AM
That's what you study history for, isn't it? You don't try to repeat the same mistakes.

You're not making any sense at all. What does with what I'm saying have to do with history?
And excuse me, but I don't think I mentioned any mistakes?

Cutiebunny
22nd April 2008, 5:48 AM
Then again for the most part Western society is more educationally developed than many of your Eastern countries. I'm sure in an isolated village somewhere in the Taiwanese country side there is some fellow that claims he can hear spirits, talk to God, animals, etc. Just because something appears more often on one side of the world doesn't mean the reason you don't see it on the other is a stigma.

The Western and Eastern schools of thought are entirely different. You can't say "We're more developed!" and equate that with being more advanced.

Western thought relies on proof. In order to substantiate a claim, you need proof. It may be more accurate than the Eastern school of thought, but it's also a lot harsher as well. Feelings and thoughts are useless pieces of information according to Western idealogy. In Eastern idealogy, emotions and thoughts are acknowledged more often.

Normally, I wouldn't make some blanket statement that those who live in cultures that are more accepting of the 'supernatural' experience it more, but, generally speaking, if you close your mind to these experiences, you won't have them.




It's not so much a stigma either, but the attitude has to do with anything not directly verifiable, tested, analyzed, or proven. I mean I always see those movies where the main character gets wrapped into some supernatural endeavor such as being endowed with superhuman strength to having a deal with the devil. Often they end up having to tell a friend and their words are "Well you wouldn't believe me if I told you." Well can you blame them?

Movies aren't accurate, especially when it comes to talking about the supernatural. There's a lot of things Hollywood doesn't know, or they try to make up in order to make the movie more exciting.

People are afraid of being ostracized. That's why, in Western society, we don't talk much about dreams, visions, etc. We don't want to be labeled as being 'crazy'.

Ethan
22nd April 2008, 5:58 AM
The Western and Eastern schools of thought are entirely different. You can't say "We're more developed!" and equate that with being more advanced.

I was going to go with a typical "But what I meant to say is..." post but you explained my sentiments in the paragraph below. Kudos.


Western thought relies on proof. In order to substantiate a claim, you need proof. It may be more accurate than the Eastern school of thought, but it's also a lot harsher as well. Feelings and thoughts are useless pieces of information according to Western idealogy. In Eastern idealogy, emotions and thoughts are acknowledged more often.

Well what would you rather preferr? Which claim do you take more seriously? Let's do a murder case scenario for the fun of it. The claim is that Jack went and killed Jill. Police reports show that hundreds of witnesses saw Jack kill Jill, forensics show that Jill's blood was all over Jack, and lastly he was found with murder weapon. Pretty strong case correct? Now we have the person that claims to have had a vision that Jack killed Jill. Which person do you take more seriously? I chose the claim with the evidence. Is my choice based on logic or a cultural stigma?


Normally, I wouldn't make some blanket statement that those who live in cultures that are more accepting of the 'supernatural' experience it more, but, generally speaking, if you close your mind to these experiences, you won't have them.

I can most certianly agree with this.

Hakajin
22nd April 2008, 7:28 AM
I really doubt that ESP exists. For starters, as you said before, some people "feel" something bad happening to a friend in another country-but is that amazing? If a good friend of mine flew over to America then I would have a feeling they might crash. If they did, I would probably tell everyone, but if I didnt I wouldnt speak up. Ive had a feeling my plane is going to crash before...and it never has. So no I dont believe in ESP of any kind.

That's not what I meant. I meant situations like a person being in a freak accident that the other person had no reason to suspect. This has happened a few times before in my family, and the only times it has happened the suspicion was right. That's not proof or anything, but it suggests something.


Again I repeat what I said on the truth thread. Perhaps I expect too much, but I have yet to see logical links. But more to the point there's the definition of E.S.P. Quite simply; will we say that E.S.P. implies something supernatural, or could something paranoia originating with no sensational origin be counted as E.S.P.? If we were to say it's anything outside the senses, I would say it probably does exist, in that us as humans dream up things as thoughts and seem to perceive these dreams (whether we see these as dreams or not!) while this has nothing to do with the five senses under a certain definition of perception it could be excepted as E.S.P. (thus we would all be psychic!). May I also note that its the instances where E.S.P. succeeds not when it fails that get reported.

Well, you know, the principle of Locality doesn't really exist, at least not on a quantum level. I hate to bring up the quantum stuff again, but it's relevant. Locality means that two particles have to be close together to react to one another, and it takes time for the message to pass between them. Turns out that distance doesn't matter. Electrons can react to each other across vast distances, instantaneously, no less. There could definitely be links to the kind of ESP I'm talking about.

Oh, and there's also Jung's theories of the collective unconscious and synchronicty. The collective unconscious is like a giant pool of all human consciousness that we all draw upon without knowing it, like with universal symbols. Synchonicity is like when you have a very strong feeling that a song will come on the radio, or when you keep hearing a word or phrase over and over for no reason. These things have been tested, and the results were statistically signifigant.

And before anyone says that ESP hasn't been shown in labs, it has been. Telepathy between people who are close has been tested. They show a picture to a person sitting in one room and tell her to focus on it, and the person in the other room is asked to talk about the first image that comes to mind. And they're usually able to do it. This is especially signifigant since it would be hard to just guess something with open ended answers like that.

GhostAnime
22nd April 2008, 9:34 AM
extraordinary claims require extra extraordinary evidence.

Ethan
22nd April 2008, 2:50 PM
extraordinary claims require extra extraordinary evidence.

Actually there is quite a few studies being done on the subject.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_n4_v61/ai_21121219

GhostAnime
22nd April 2008, 2:59 PM
what the heck, there are like, over 20 pages of this thing. mind quoting something?

aquajet16
22nd April 2008, 4:35 PM
Well I think it exists because I remembered that most people when they die, didn't use up the whole portion of their brain just a small fraction, just like Einstein. People say that some who could use fully their brain is through psycho kinetics and predicting the future. They are commonly known as Psychics.

So I truly believe if a person uses fully his/her brain, will he/she have an ESP.

GhostAnime
22nd April 2008, 4:38 PM
even if they myth was true, thats no reason to assume that thats the case.

Profesco
22nd April 2008, 5:16 PM
And before anyone says that ESP hasn't been shown in labs, it has been. Telepathy between people who are close has been tested. They show a picture to a person sitting in one room and tell her to focus on it, and the person in the other room is asked to talk about the first image that comes to mind. And they're usually able to do it. This is especially signifigant since it would be hard to just guess something with open ended answers like that

Hakajin, I thought these results were statistically insignificant? If that's the case, isn't it much more likely that the explanation is simple chance? If you take a thousand people and tell them to guess what their friend is thinking, it's not exactly a miracle that a few of them get it right.

And Cutiebunny, did you say that instances like this are more common in societies that easily accept/promote them? First, maybe you're making the wrong connection. It's just as likely that they're more common because the society favors them to happen; you know, the way more religious experiences happen in very religious communities. Second, I'm not sure I agree with your idea that psychic experiences are suppressed from happening in the West. Deja vu is an extremely common occurence all over, and to a lesser extent, the many "your ears must have been burning" things, where people know they were being talked about. All kinds of "psychic" things are talked about over here. Oh, and remember when Jesus appeared on a piece of toast?

Ethan
22nd April 2008, 5:48 PM
what the heck, there are like, over 20 pages of this thing. mind quoting something?


If it's too long for you that's really too bad. You don't have to read all of it. If there is something your confused about let me know. I'm not going to sympathize with a "Whaa, but it's too long so I didn't bother" response.

GhostAnime
22nd April 2008, 9:03 PM
and im not going to bother with a 'whaa, im not going to make things simple" response. whats so hard about at least telling me which page has the main evidence?

ironknight42
22nd April 2008, 11:26 PM
E.S.P. at the most excist as a perception right before something happens similar to animals its just all your senses calaborating to think that something is going to happen like it going rain or there going to be a thunder storm even though there are know easly perceived elements you just feel it but and humans are the same speicies so its likly that we think the same so other kinds of E.S.P. seem to excist. It is unlikly that E.S.P. excist except at most in the form of your five sense calaborting and sending your brain a message that seems to come out of the blue similar to dogs predicting disasters right before they happen I guess.

Hakajin
22nd April 2008, 11:30 PM
Hakajin, I thought these results were statistically insignificant? If that's the case, isn't it much more likely that the explanation is simple chance? If you take a thousand people and tell them to guess what their friend is thinking, it's not exactly a miracle that a few of them get it right.

Nope. This was a lab setting, and it wasn't just what their friends were thinking. That would be easier since you can probably predict things based upon the personality of their friends. The subjects were supposed to concentrate on a picture, and their friends were supposed to say whatever came to mind. And the results were signifigant.


Well what would you rather preferr? Which claim do you take more seriously? Let's do a murder case scenario for the fun of it. The claim is that Jack went and killed Jill. Police reports show that hundreds of witnesses saw Jack kill Jill, forensics show that Jill's blood was all over Jack, and lastly he was found with murder weapon. Pretty strong case correct? Now we have the person that claims to have had a vision that Jack killed Jill. Which person do you take more seriously? I chose the claim with the evidence. Is my choice based on logic or a cultural stigma?

Needing evidence to convict someone is completely different from invalidating something just because you ca'nt explain it. Just because psychic testamonies aren't as reliable as hard evidence doesn't mean that ESP doesn't exist. I mean, you could make the same argument about eyewitness testimony. And just for the heck of it, there's a show called "Psychic Detectives." Now, I'm sure there are a lot of cases where the psychics aren't able to help, but I've seen episodes where they've found evidence crucial to the case, or even bodies. It's not like it's a lucky guess, either, sometimes they find things where no one would expect to find them. Even one case like that would be remarkable, but there are enough to keep the series going.


E.S.P. at the most excist as a perception right before something happens similar to animals its just all your senses calaborating to think that something is going to happen like it going rain or there going to be a thunder storm even though there are know easly perceived elements you just feel it but and humans are the same speicies so its likly that we think the same so other kinds of E.S.P. seem to excist. It is unlikly that E.S.P. excist except at most in the form of your five sense calaborting and sending your brain a message that seems to come out of the blue similar to dogs predicting disasters right before they happen I guess.

That works for some things, but certainly not all of them. This explanation can only work with predictions that deal with local events.

And finally, I'm going to talk about Near Death Experiences. Again. People who have transcendental experiences (seeing the light and stuff), often come back with an intensified sixth sense, and I've heard many, many cases where someone was able to tell that someone else had died when she was in a wreck with the other person or something. But that's not even the most impressive part. The most famous literature on the subject is probably Recollections of Death by a cardiologist named Mark Sabom. Some of his patients reported seeing themselves on the operating table and having transcendental experiences. He was skeptical, but he wanted to study it. Many of his patients were people who had lots of experience being in hospitals, so he had a control group of patients who had also nearly died but had not had NDEs. The people who had had NDEs were able to give amazingly accurate reports of what had happened in the ER, while none of the control group could. The most impressive case was a woman who had been blind since age 19, but was able to describe equipment that hadn't been invented when she went blind.

ironknight42
23rd April 2008, 4:16 AM
you can walk me into a room blindfolded and I could be blind as a bat and I could describe to you what the equipment was like by the use of my other senses also I can't imagine someone would go into this with out learning about what was going to happen in the ER. My point is that at best it is localized and after almost dying the brain problably works a little differently or the people are just more aware of their surroundings. So I bid you farewell and I hope to consider this calm debate later.

Hakajin
23rd April 2008, 5:44 AM
you can walk me into a room blindfolded and I could be blind as a bat and I could describe to you what the equipment was like by the use of my other senses also I can't imagine someone would go into this with out learning about what was going to happen in the ER. My point is that at best it is localized and after almost dying the brain problably works a little differently or the people are just more aware of their surroundings. So I bid you farewell and I hope to consider this calm debate later.

They couldn't use their other senses, they were out cold before they even entered the ER, or in some cases, brain dead. The things you see on TV about the ER are often misleading (in dramas, there were hardly any real emergency shows when the book was written. In fact, many patients reported that it was different from). They were able to describe things like colors of the equipment that can only come from visual cues, even in the case of the blind woman. I also remember one guy who wanted to thank a specific nurse for reviving him, and the doctor didn't know how he knew who it was. He replied that as she was walking down the hall, he had passed through her and had seen her nametag.

I mean, sure, the doctors described the basic procedure if it was surgury (and in the case of an emergency, they didn't even get that), but they were able to describe things like resuscitation procedures, and even minute details about procedures that were patient specific, things the doctors hadn't told them about or had refused to tell them about. One guy was even able to read a doctors thoughts about a fenderbender he had been in earlier that day.

They were also able to tell what was going on in other rooms, like who was there when they had no way of knowing.

And don't forget, the control group didn't give the same results. They were no different from the experimental group except for the fact that they didn't have NDEs. At least, not in the ESP sense.

Some people attribute these experiences to remote viewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing), but that'd still be ESP.

The_Panda
23rd April 2008, 6:28 AM
Western thought relies on proof. In order to substantiate a claim, you need proof. It may be more accurate than the Eastern school of thought, but it's also a lot harsher as well. Feelings and thoughts are useless pieces of information according to Western idealogy. In Eastern idealogy, emotions and thoughts are acknowledged more often.

While I don't want to start an East vs. West debate or get involved in one AT ALL, I would want to put in my piece of cake to this discussion as someone who has grown up having to live in both paradigms. Really we can say one has the one idea, the other has the other, but really it's not that much different. The success of self help books in western countries points to this: while we like to think of ourselves as incredibly logical beings (and mind you people in modern China are perhaps even worse at this!) but at heart we do have a soft spot for emotions and feelings. If we were logical and hard we'd be Houyhnhnms not Humans.

And I partly disagree with the thing about suppression... if we don't accept something we probably will still experience it we will just not accept it as so.


Well, you know, the principle of Locality doesn't really exist, at least not on a quantum level. I hate to bring up the quantum stuff again, but it's relevant. Locality means that two particles have to be close together to react to one another, and it takes time for the message to pass between them. Turns out that distance doesn't matter. Electrons can react to each other across vast distances, instantaneously, no less. There could definitely be links to the kind of ESP I'm talking about.

There could be links but I don't see them. And again on Jungian psychology, I see no definition of E.S.P. thus nothing to compare it to.


And before anyone says that ESP hasn't been shown in labs, it has been. Telepathy between people who are close has been tested. They show a picture to a person sitting in one room and tell her to focus on it, and the person in the other room is asked to talk about the first image that comes to mind. And they're usually able to do it. This is especially signifigant since it would be hard to just guess something with open ended answers like that.

Whether such experiments are either statistically significant or produce pure results is another matter.


extraordinary claims require extra extraordinary evidence.

Please stop hopping into debates and make a small little comment where you really explain or point out anything about another persons argument. They don't help and they annoy a lot of other debaters. If you're going to make a comment, at least try justify it as well. You want to place the burden of proof at extraordinary levels, explain why so. And define extraordinary.

And GhostAnime I don't think Babylon's link was to support E.S.P. rather to point out there have been a lot of studies on it. Thus he linked to a meta-analysis.


And just for the heck of it, there's a show called "Psychic Detectives."

I'm not even going to comment...


And finally, I'm going to talk about Near Death Experiences. Again. People who have transcendental experiences (seeing the light and stuff), often come back with an intensified sixth sense, and I've heard many, many cases where someone was able to tell that someone else had died when she was in a wreck with the other person or something. But that's not even the most impressive part. The most famous literature on the subject is probably Recollections of Death by a cardiologist named Mark Sabom. Some of his patients reported seeing themselves on the operating table and having transcendental experiences. He was skeptical, but he wanted to study it. Many of his patients were people who had lots of experience being in hospitals, so he had a control group of patients who had also nearly died but had not had NDEs. The people who had had NDEs were able to give amazingly accurate reports of what had happened in the ER, while none of the control group could. The most impressive case was a woman who had been blind since age 19, but was able to describe equipment that hadn't been invented when she went blind.

Oh no not another N.D.E. debate... we've had waaaay too many of these and they all go the same way. As I have said in many other debates the mind loves to play tricks on us. And especially when we are about to die, we may be tricked into thinking we are dying.

And Hakajin get that Wikipedia link out of my face :P

Hakajin
23rd April 2008, 7:09 AM
Whether such experiments are either statistically significant or produce pure results is another matter.

You show your results through statistical signifigance. That's the first rule of psychology (which includes para-psychology). You never say that you've proven something, only that the results suggest something. And the bar is set high. The general rule is that something is statistically signifigant if it has a .05 alpha level or less. That means that there's only a 5% chance that your results are due to random chance, and not the thing you're researching. This reminds me of SPSS...


There could be links but I don't see them. And again on Jungian psychology, I see no definition of E.S.P. thus nothing to compare it to.

Well, the only requirement for something to be counted as ESP is that you get information from the environment without using your senses. The Jungian stuff fits quite well under that definition.



Oh no not another N.D.E. debate... we've had waaaay too many of these and they all go the same way. As I have said in many other debates the mind loves to play tricks on us. And especially when we are about to die, we may be tricked into thinking we are dying.

And Hakajin get that Wikipedia link out of my face :P

It's never really a debate... I get countered on other ESP stuff, but not so much on the NDEs. Anyway, it's relevant, so I'm using it. It's not a matter of mind tricks in this case. It's almost impossible that these are hallucinations, and the only reason I say "almost" is to avoid saying "definitely." It may only be anecdotal evidence, but there are way too many accurate accounts to ignore. Something is happening, even if we can't say what exactly. I mean, the transcendental experiences are one thing, but the self-viewing ones are quite another.

And I only linked to Wiki since it had a good definition and I didn't feel like bothering to type one out, not because I thought it had good evidence for it.


I'm not even going to comment...

Hey, don't knock it 'til you've seen it. It was on CourtTV, not the Sci-Fi channel. Actually, it was pretty boring, though.

VampirateMace
23rd April 2008, 7:56 AM
Well I think it exists because I remembered that most people when they die, didn't use up the whole portion of their brain just a small fraction, just like Einstein. People say that some who could use fully their brain is through psycho kinetics and predicting the future. They are commonly known as Psychics.

So I truly believe if a person uses fully his/her brain, will he/she have an ESP.

That's a myth, we don't use our whole brain at once, but we do use our whole brain, it just depends on what we're thinking about or concentrating on.

I'm suprised no one has mentioned negative ESP, which is where your predictions are less than 50% accurate, that's worse than guessing. It's commonly used to explain ESP failures in scientific testing.

Dimitri
23rd April 2008, 8:37 AM
Well, I definitely believe in ESP and the fact that humans are physical beings having a spirit.

Question: Some New Age type movements use crystals to enhance psychic energy. Why is this?

GhostAnime
23rd April 2008, 10:47 AM
why dont you think the burden of proof should be placed on them? why is that annoying and not justified? they are the ones making the claim, right? this isnt even about babylon's link anymore.

what i asked wasnt any different from asking evidence for god.

The_Panda
23rd April 2008, 12:14 PM
You show your results through statistical signifigance. That's the first rule of psychology (which includes para-psychology). You never say that you've proven something, only that the results suggest something. And the bar is set high. The general rule is that something is statistically signifigant if it has a .05 alpha level or less. That means that there's only a 5% chance that your results are due to random chance, and not the thing you're researching. This reminds me of SPSS...

Okay I won't dispute you on the statistics topic; you clearly have a greater understanding of statistics than me. What I have to ask is as follows; one can we attribute this to a supernatural sixth sense (whether this is E.S.P. is another matter depending entirely on the definition). Secondly we have to question if anything has interfered with the result - I read the blasted Wikipedia page and apparently critics accuse such experiments of being tainted for various reasons.


Well, the only requirement for something to be counted as ESP is that you get information from the environment without using your senses. The Jungian stuff fits quite well under that definition.

Okay then. That seems a reasonably good definition, though its vague in the classification of "information". Will we count the interpretation of something as E.S.P. (e.g., the child seeing the coat on the wall as a ghoul) or rather the objective observation (this is almost a contradictory statement xD)?


It's never really a debate... I get countered on other ESP stuff, but not so much on the NDEs. Anyway, it's relevant, so I'm using it. It's not a matter of mind tricks in this case. It's almost impossible that these are hallucinations, and the only reason I say "almost" is to avoid saying "definitely." It may only be anecdotal evidence, but there are way too many accurate accounts to ignore. Something is happening, even if we can't say what exactly. I mean, the transcendental experiences are one thing, but the self-viewing ones are quite another.

I take it you've never gone into one of the wards for terminally ill patients... they're truly sad places (even worse are the wards for terminally ill children). Really what is sad is that the people in it know they are going to die, and in many cases they know their death most likely cannot be stopped. They're just waiting for it to happen. Maybe it's just me but I find them incredibly moving. And really it's not surprising some patients dream about death in the most realistic of ways, when all you're surrounded by more or less reminds you of death. N.D.E.'s may or may not be supernatural, but really it's not much of a stretch at all to suggest they're all where the patient more or less imagines things using the great simulative power of the human brain.


why dont you think the burden of proof should be placed on them?

Actually in a purely logical sense if you say there is no "E.S.P." and Hakajin says there is there is a burden on both of you to prove your statements not the burden on one not the other. However I'm not arguing the former and I don't think you are too. And by the way you seem to be confused in general of the idea of evidence... and also it's a bit of a stretch to say that "there is no evidence" as oppose to "I have not seen any evidence".


why is that annoying and not justified?

What is annoying is that you pop into debates with one liners leaving a need for explanation behind you. It's just purely unhelpful to put as a burden of proof "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" without defining extraordinary. All that's left is ambiguity. Rather, it is far better for all debaters that we have a clear burden of proof. For example, take a look at what I asked of Bowspearer in the Israel debate. A three step full burden of proof which if he showed I would concede (he so far hasn't as it seems). If you want to liken this to God debates then that's fine. If you look back to what I said in some God debates, I took the Hume test for miracles, that is, a miracle is only proven when the likelihood of the evidence in support of it being false is more miraculous than the miracle itself. To put it mathematically, where p is the rough probability of the miracle, and q is the rough probability of the chance the evidence is true, for the miracle to be proven p > 1 - q. Of course this approach is subject to great impediment in that judging a clear cut probability for evidence is extremely difficult (though we can look to Hakajin's Alpha level for assistance).

GhostAnime
23rd April 2008, 12:19 PM
i never said there werent any. i have a null hypothesis; im an 'esp atheist' so-to-speak.

and that extraordinary thing is just things that dont sound scientific surely require some kind of unscientific evidence (in other words, if god existed, him arranging the stars to his liking would definitely be unscientific to our status quo of what we know now).

and why do i consider it extraordinary you ask? well, how many cases have you actually heard about someone knowing something without the regular 5 senses? pretty rare to me.

The Admiral
23rd April 2008, 1:55 PM
Really what is sad is that the people in it know they are going to die, and in many cases they know their death most likely cannot be stopped.

Which, of course, is not ESP; ESP requires the use of obtaining information by paranormal means.


N.D.E.'s may or may not be supernatural, but really it's not much of a stretch at all to suggest they're all where the patient more or less imagines things using the great simulative power of the human brain.

Based on my understanding of what an NDE is, it is entirely psychological in nature, but I'm uncertain as to what actually causes this at this time, but, as for others' opinions of why they happen... Wikipedia says that several unspecified cultures "revere NDEs as a paranormal and spiritual glimpse into the afterlife" -- which is probably reflective of the importance of the idea of an afterlife or life-after-death in our culture. I am of the opinion that such might be triggered, to an extent, by the desire to die happy, in a 'good place' - certainly the feelings one experiences during an NDE could be considered at least partially calming, right? I think that the NDE is entirely physiological and/or psychological; the fact that the experience moulds to the afterlife you believe in, instead of conforming to one, according to my research, doesn't have very much effect on this, but it's rather difficult for an irreligious person to believe in something spiritual, obviously.

Regarding E.S.P., I prepose that it's possible, but generally, I maintain that unresearched predictions and prophecies should not be regarded as anything more than shots in the dark until something can come up to state that they are otherwise. Burden of proof, and all of that.

Trev&Nacho
23rd April 2008, 6:32 PM
The burden of proof is on those who claim that ESP exists since they are making a claim and trying to persuade us. if someone makes a claim that goes against what is commonly known and offers no proof than this claim can be dismissed without trying to show that it is false. eg. if someone says "this man killed someone" we don't lock him away because he cant prove beyond resonable doubt that he is innocent. we lock him away if we can prove beyond all resonable doubt that he is guilty. also as for my stance, i believe in science and unless you can give me a logical quantitative reason why ESP happens i shall remain an unbeliever.

The Admiral
23rd April 2008, 7:35 PM
The burden of proof is on those who claim that ESP exists since they are making a claim and trying to persuade us.

Which, I'm sure, all the people who claim to have ESP also claim -- why would you claim not to have something that doesn't exist? Burden of proof is instated against those who make claims "using ESP." We already knew that burden of proof should be used against those who believe in ESP, since, well, there's no concrete proof of it yet. Though, I guess that also makes the earlier use of the Burden against those who make claims implied.


also as for my stance, i believe in science and unless you can give me a logical quantitative reason why ESP happens i shall remain an unbeliever.

Likewise -- maybe I should clarify my earlier statement regarding "ESP could be possible": I propose that, biologically speaking, there is a possibility of a sense beyond the five senses, but we'd need concrete proof of whether or not this extra sense exists.

Ethan
23rd April 2008, 10:54 PM
Needing evidence to convict someone is completely different from invalidating something just because you ca'nt explain it. Just because psychic testamonies aren't as reliable as hard evidence doesn't mean that ESP doesn't exist. I mean, you could make the same argument about eyewitness testimony. And just for the heck of it, there's a show called "Psychic Detectives." Now, I'm sure there are a lot of cases where the psychics aren't able to help, but I've seen episodes where they've found evidence crucial to the case, or even bodies. It's not like it's a lucky guess, either, sometimes they find things where no one would expect to find them. Even one case like that would be remarkable, but there are enough to keep the series going.

They may be different scenarios but the concept is still the same. In this case conviction is simply the proof. It could be a murder case or any case for that matter. When a person claims anything, one person having evidence, and the opther person having none, which do you choose? I'm not saying ESP does not exist, in fact I do believe there is a such thing as ESP, I'm merely devils advocating.

Sookie
23rd April 2008, 10:57 PM
I don't believe in it, but does that mean it's not real? No, it does not mean that at all. It just means I am not a believer.

Hakajin
23rd April 2008, 10:58 PM
I take it you've never gone into one of the wards for terminally ill patients... they're truly sad places (even worse are the wards for terminally ill children). Really what is sad is that the people in it know they are going to die, and in many cases they know their death most likely cannot be stopped. They're just waiting for it to happen. Maybe it's just me but I find them incredibly moving. And really it's not surprising some patients dream about death in the most realistic of ways, when all you're surrounded by more or less reminds you of death. N.D.E.'s may or may not be supernatural, but really it's not much of a stretch at all to suggest they're all where the patient more or less imagines things using the great simulative power of the human brain.

I've worked in a nursing home, close enough. Anyway, maybe what we're missing here is the fact that when it's studied, their accounts have to be verified by the doctors who were working on them. Maybe that wasn't clear. They're able to tell things that they would have had no way of knowing unless they were consciously seeing the events. It's not just that they dreamed up a realistic situation, they were able to tell things that really happened in their specific cases.

ironknight42
23rd April 2008, 11:16 PM
my great uncle said he would die on a Sunday he even said what day and what do you know early in the morning of that very morning a few hours before they take him to a ward for alteheimerz(bad spell) patients he dies. I just remembered that after reading Hakajin's post, but he didn't want to live any more so its like he gave up on living sort of so its not exact and the prediction was made only a week before but he was fine then. So theres a random story what do you think of it.

The_Panda
24th April 2008, 12:51 AM
Which, of course, is not ESP; ESP requires the use of obtaining information by paranormal means.

I wasn't suggesting that was E.S.P. Actually my point on N.D.E.'s is that given the environment that some of these patients live in it's not much of a stretch at all to say they are hallucinations.


and that extraordinary thing is just things that dont sound scientific surely require some kind of unscientific evidence (in other words, if god existed, him arranging the stars to his liking would definitely be unscientific to our status quo of what we know now).

and why do i consider it extraordinary you ask? well, how many cases have you actually heard about someone knowing something without the regular 5 senses? pretty rare to me.

But at what level do you say the evidence is extraordinary enough to make it proof. That's what is lacking from what you are saying.


I've worked in a nursing home, close enough. Anyway, maybe what we're missing here is the fact that when it's studied, their accounts have to be verified by the doctors who were working on them. Maybe that wasn't clear. They're able to tell things that they would have had no way of knowing unless they were consciously seeing the events. It's not just that they dreamed up a realistic situation, they were able to tell things that really happened in their specific cases.

Okay that is much clearer. From this again I ask for a definition of E.S.P. before the debate continues.

Hakajin
24th April 2008, 5:30 AM
Okay I won't dispute you on the statistics topic; you clearly have a greater understanding of statistics than me. What I have to ask is as follows; one can we attribute this to a supernatural sixth sense (whether this is E.S.P. is another matter depending entirely on the definition). Secondly we have to question if anything has interfered with the result - I read the blasted Wikipedia page and apparently critics accuse such experiments of being tainted for various reasons.

Eh, didn't respond to this stuff earlier. I define ESP before as getting sensory information from the environment without using your eyes, ears, nose, skin, or mouth. Anyway, as with anything else, some experiments are more valid than others. There are good para-psychology studies and bad ones. And researchers are always trying to correct each other. I'm not saying they never have a point, but whenever something new comes along, there's bound to be controversy.


my great uncle said he would die on a Sunday he even said what day and what do you know early in the morning of that very morning a few hours before they take him to a ward for alteheimerz(bad spell) patients he dies. I just remembered that after reading Hakajin's post, but he didn't want to live any more so its like he gave up on living sort of so its not exact and the prediction was made only a week before but he was fine then. So theres a random story what do you think of it.

While I believe in ESP, this sounds more like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. I mean, people can will themselves to die. The body can be influenced by beliefs and desires pretty easily.

Dark SpOOn Bender
24th April 2008, 9:41 AM
The human mind is too complicated for us to delve into something as perplexing as ESP at this point. There are so many aspects left unanswered about our brain. Our memories and subconscious are things we are barely even aware of half the time or have much control over to even determine if we might "predict" or experience "de ja vu" in a manner that involves ESP. I don't think humanity is at the stage for this yet, but that's just me.

Hakajin
24th April 2008, 10:43 AM
Well, we may not be able to explain it yet, but we do have evidence for it.

.TraX.
24th April 2008, 3:15 PM
Most ESP type things seem like a form of prediction and logic to me, I mean I've gone "I've been here before" because situations have already played out in my mind.

HikariTajiri
24th April 2008, 8:15 PM
Yes. There's hardly anything else to say but yes, there is ESP.

burgaz62
25th April 2008, 5:42 AM
Yes. there is Esp because when people listen to their gut feeling, they usually are right. People have had visions that have saved lives. Not long ago two girls stopped 3 other poeple getting on a bus. The bus crashed 5 minutes later. Everyone has Esp, they just might not know how to use it.

HyenaHaze
25th April 2008, 5:51 AM
I know this may sound fake, but I met a girl in a rehab place who had telekensis. When she got mad, pens, cans, cups, and other stuff would fly. She had brain damage. Before she had the damage, she wasn't able to do that...

RagTag
25th April 2008, 5:55 AM
I know this may sound fake, but I met a girl in a rehab place who had telekensis. When she got mad, pens, cans, cups, and other stuff would fly. She had brain damage. Before she had the damage, she wasn't able to do that...

I used to think i had telekenisis because i would get these weird dizzy spells and things would start flying but it turns there was a poltergeist in my house and I was basicaly having an allergic reaction to it getting close to me

The Admiral
25th April 2008, 3:52 PM
I wasn't suggesting that was E.S.P. Actually my point on N.D.E.'s is that given the environment that some of these patients live in it's not much of a stretch at all to say they are hallucinations.

Fair enough, but some people miiiight not realize that. Extrasensory implies "beyond the five senses" and so... you know, some people are just... ehhh.


I know this may sound fake, but I met a girl in a rehab place who had telekensis. When she got mad, pens, cans, cups, and other stuff would fly. She had brain damage. Before she had the damage, she wasn't able to do that...

Can you prove it in some way other than just this story?

HyenaHaze
25th April 2008, 3:58 PM
Can you prove it in some way other than just this story?
Unfourtunately, no. This happened while I was in a Georgia rehab facility called "Laurelwood".

Gabby (the girl) commited suicide in 2006, and I can't get ahold of her parents. (Laurelwood will also not let me handle other people's records.)

Dark SpOOn Bender
25th April 2008, 4:35 PM
Well, we may not be able to explain it yet, but we do have evidence for it.

De ja vu isn't enough evidence of ESP. Knowing things you supposedly couldn't otherwise know without the help of ESP could have an explanation that does not involve a sixth sense.
I've thought that I've recognized places that I've been to before, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have ESP. For example, one time such an instance happened and I found out that I had been there once when I was about a year old, which might explain why I seemed to recognize it. One way or another, it must have been stored in my memory and I was able to recover it.
Right now, I do not believe in ESP. I have never heard of any definite evidence that supports it other than "there is NO way she could have known that unless she was there, and she was never there, so she must have ESP!" I'm not counting out the possibility, though; I just don't think there is a reason to jump to such conclusions when we haven't unraveled the maze that is our mind.

HyenaHaze
25th April 2008, 5:20 PM
I must add to this debatable topic. Being a therian (which is a debatable exsistance, because it means you're mentally "part animal"), I've had several discussions on it. ESP is only semi-verifiable. Although I've had instances of lucid dreaming, I don't consider myself an Esp-er. Being what I am (a dissociative) means that I often "disconnect" from myself, and sometimes "go" to another place. I then cannot remember what happened during this time (usually the event is highly stressful) but this does not, in any way, make me psychic.

Evidence for ESP varies. It's usually very vague. I, for one, saw it with my own eyes. However, being as I was under the effect of several meds at the time, I'm evidentially not creadible as a witness. The only reason I saw it was because the girl with telekensis refused to go anywhere in the hospital without me. (I was good friends with her.)

Oh, and a fun link that's rather interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/guides/weird/mythsandlegends/pages/uri_result.shtml

Has to do with an ESP experiment in the UK.

Profesco
25th April 2008, 7:01 PM
HyenaHaze makes me think of something else.

Considering the human brain can do something as incredible as dissociative identity disorder, or literally contain and separate two distinct personalities with separate memories, and that is explainable through medical/scientific/psychological means, why do we want to jump to a supernatural conclusion for other incredible events?

Dark SpOOn Bender
25th April 2008, 11:20 PM
why do we want to jump to a supernatural conclusion for other incredible events?

My thoughs pretty much. Why is it that we obviously do not know enough about what we have already discovered and yet we are trying to place a supernatural label on what some consider to be strange events that coud possibly have a more reasonable explanation? Our minds are amazing enough with the 5 senses we already have, but we still need to learn more about the workings of our brain in the context of what has actually been proven fact at the moment. No need to get into ESP at this point imo.

The Admiral
25th April 2008, 11:47 PM
Unfourtunately, no. This happened while I was in a Georgia rehab facility called "Laurelwood".

Gabby (the girl) commited suicide in 2006, and I can't get ahold of her parents. (Laurelwood will also not let me handle other people's records.)

Then, I'm afraid that the story may well not be considered credible.


De ja vu isn't enough evidence of ESP.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that it's not evidence at all...

HyenaHaze
26th April 2008, 12:00 AM
^
I just said I'm not a creadible witness in my last post.

kochoupink
28th April 2008, 4:38 AM
I mean, I'd love to believe there was such a thing as ESP. I'd like a bit of proof first. The fact that most claims of ESP have been proven wrong does not help its case much.
Let's hope Mew fan 120 doesn't find this thread and start on psionics :P

Night_Walker
11th May 2008, 10:45 AM
I believe there is ESP, I've had 'future-flashes'.
The sad thing is a lot of people are fraudsters and have done a lot of damage to the idea.

From my own experiences I find ESP can't be controlled, it just happens.
Maybe in people who're more 'developed' it could be controlled but I have grave doubts about any psychic who claims they can control their 'power' with the level of control some of the 'celeb psychics' claim to have.

Concrete Donkey
11th May 2008, 11:19 AM
There are techniques used by these so called psychics, i met a guy once who was so good at it he would make you draw a shape on paper and guess right every time and would make it seem like he was talking to dead relatives. He told us that every famous Psychic he saw on TV either used the techniques he used or claimed bunch of likely to happen events, would happen.

There was a New Age doctor called Karla McLaren she used the techniques Subconsciously and believed that she was a true psychic after reading about it she realized that she was doing it.

Links:
Cold Reading (http://skepdic.com/coldread.html)
Hot Reading (http://skepdic.com/hotreading.html)
Forer Effect (http://skepdic.com/forer.html)

Matty_G33
11th May 2008, 11:25 AM
I'm not sure if it's ESP, but when I'm in bed, sometimes I get a dream of what going to happen in the future, but don't know if it would actually happen.

However, no visions of any important stuff has happened, just...random stuff, like walking up a black staircase at a museum, or meeting up with my friends at school.

I find it weird, and probably a coincidence.

Concrete Donkey
11th May 2008, 1:20 PM
Dreams are very vague, and your dreams are very general. In your life your most likely to meet your friends at school and walk up black staircases.

Hakajin
11th May 2008, 11:46 PM
De ja vu isn't enough evidence of ESP. Knowing things you supposedly couldn't otherwise know without the help of ESP could have an explanation that does not involve a sixth sense.
I've thought that I've recognized places that I've been to before, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have ESP. For example, one time such an instance happened and I found out that I had been there once when I was about a year old, which might explain why I seemed to recognize it. One way or another, it must have been stored in my memory and I was able to recover it.
Right now, I do not believe in ESP. I have never heard of any definite evidence that supports it other than "there is NO way she could have known that unless she was there, and she was never there, so she must have ESP!" I'm not counting out the possibility, though; I just don't think there is a reason to jump to such conclusions when we haven't unraveled the maze that is our mind.

Gosh, I must've missed this. Anyway, I wasn't talking about de ja vu. I don't put much stock it that, either. Just because I believe in ESP doesn't mean I believe everything. And I wasn't talking about just recognizing things, either, I was talking about seeing things happen that actually did happen when the person was unconscious. Extrasensory just means that the data is collected by means other than the five senses; it says nothing about whether the brain is involved.

BarackObama
16th May 2008, 9:10 PM
Notradamus said the world would end in 1999.
Other days to stay inside:
1996
1997
1999
2000
2002
2004
2006
2012
2776 (I think)

Brettt
19th May 2008, 5:20 PM
I do not believe it is ESP; rather, intelligent connections made by the subconcious, without us actually conciously being able to explain it.

But in you're case, it sounds more like de-ja-vu, I have that feeling all the time.

dragoniteKnight
20th May 2008, 12:30 AM
its possible, because some people with the 6th sense often say that everyone has it, but they dont know how to do it.

zaxly100
26th May 2008, 10:39 PM
ESP is sorta hard to understand. Sometimes, I'll have a dream where I'll get a 75 on a math test, and in a vew weeks when i have one, I'll get a 75. This has happened to me a lot, but it only happens before a test or quiz. But once, i dreamt about a purple vase, and the next day, there was a purple vase on my dining room table. I'm not sure how this happens, so try not to ask.

De-ja-vu is also a bit weird, but it's not ESP. I have never witnessed De-ja-vu, but it might happen sometime in one of my ESP dreams....

Mustasiipi
29th May 2008, 1:38 PM
I believe some animals can sense thoughts or presences from far away, especially ones that live in packs/flocks etc, having close connection to others. Dogs, for example. Not nearly all, but some of them seem to know when you're coming home, even when anyone in the house doesn't know when you're coming, and start yipping and bouncing around at the front door even 15 minutes before you arrive. Dog's sense of hearing isn't much better than human's so it can't be explained by that. They do have superior sense of smell though, but I don't think that explains it.

Praxiteles
29th May 2008, 3:05 PM
I don't see why psychic phenomena have to be immediately labeled supernatural. They are simply part of another faculty of the mind which has been so unrecognized by science (admittedly with some fault of its own) that we haven't begun to think of reasonable explanations for it. It need not be supernatural to exist.

As for myself, I am a supporter of its existence, though the matter of reasonable and empirical evidence still baffles and troubles me. I take or hobby the possibly lunatic practice of psionics, which holds that all humans are capable of developing it and the registered "espers" or telekinetics" or sundry "psychics" are merely those who have a natural affinity for this, as one might have an affinity for creativity or mathematics. It takes an entirely skeptic and reasonable outlook but still holds that psychism exists, usually due to the generation of evidence by the psion him/herself which places it within reasonable probability of existing. At least, by the psion's standards.

It is accepted that a large amount of the observations that we psions make are statistical, and that it is still somehow possible that we are fooling ourselves. However, we have reached some very remarkable levels of skill which nail it down to very improbable--I won't produce evidence for those who ask it, since this would mean linking to unofficial videos and records which are wholly debatable. Besides, with more controlled experiments like Philip the Generated Ghost (http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa102201a.htm), it becomes a little unreasonable to label everything fraudulous.

I am simply laying down my views, here, not exactly trying to argue anything. I know that there are several ways to arguing against my points.

Hakajin
30th May 2008, 7:24 AM
I don't see why psychic phenomena have to be immediately labeled supernatural. They are simply part of another faculty of the mind which has been so unrecognized by science (admittedly with some fault of its own) that we haven't begun to think of reasonable explanations for it. It need not be supernatural to exist.

The problem is, it doesn't work with a strictly material view of the world, which is what Western science currently favors.


It is accepted that a large amount of the observations that we psions make are statistical, and that it is still somehow possible that we are fooling ourselves. However, we have reached some very remarkable levels of skill which nail it down to very improbable--I won't produce evidence for those who ask it, since this would mean linking to unofficial videos and records which are wholly debatable. Besides, with more controlled experiments like Philip the Generated Ghost, it becomes a little unreasonable to label everything fraudulous.

Someone else who actually knows about that? There's a book about it called Conjuring Up Philip that my dad read a long time ago. I'd like to read it, too, but he doesn't have it anymore, and it's rare. Ha...