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pokefiend_13
25th June 2008, 3:52 PM
Recently I've gotten the urge to post a debate, and the controversial topic of allowing illegal immigrants to gain driver licenses is one of America's most debatable topics in recent years. Additionally, it is one of the few I care about.

To begin I'll give a brief sample of my stance on the topic;

I do not support illegal immigration and I believe each state needs to do their part in stopping it. However, with such an overwhelming population of illegal immigrants residing in our country, we all know their not all gonna be found and apprehended any time soon.

Meanwhile, the state government has a duty to protect it's public against illegal immigrant misdeeds. Ironically, one effective way in doing this is through giving illegal immigrants access to driver licenses. Although it may upset and alienate many Americans, this policy offers many safety benefits to the American public. For one, they'll know how to actually drive, keeping us from unneeded car accidents. And two, they'll finally be in the system, making it easier for our law enforcement to seek and follow suspects who happen to be illegal immigrants, lowering the rate of repeated crimes.

The way I see it, the benefits from granting illegal immigrants the opportunity to gain Driver licenses outweigh any sort nationalistic concern, citizens may have.

BigLutz
25th June 2008, 6:20 PM
Well for one these people like to live in secrecy, a majority of them are not going to take this up becuase they fear that doing so will lead to their capture.

Second these guys are already criminals, they are already breaking the law, why would they want to pay for a Drivers License when they are already driving for free?

Third and most of all this only adds to the long list of benifits that entises these criminals to come over here. Doing this is the absolute opposite of what we should be doing.

Cutiebunny
26th June 2008, 3:11 AM
I'll allow illegals to have driver's licenses only if we have ICE agents located at each DMV to apprehend each one and process them for removal from the United States.

What makes you think that these illegal aliens will provide their real name, their real date of birth and their real address? What makes you think they won't use the name on the fake green card or fake social security card?

If the illegals want to enjoy the benefits that legal residents do, I suggest they head back to their country and come here legally.

#TWERKTEAM
26th June 2008, 3:23 AM
No becasue then they would want us to change all the signs on the road so they could read them, too.


Originally Posted by: Cutiebunny
I'll allow illegals to have driver's licenses only if we have ICE agents located at each DMV to apprehend each one and process them for removal from the United States.

^ I agree with you.

randomspot555
26th June 2008, 6:37 PM
There is much extreme ignorance in this thread. However, non-citizens should not be able to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and not everyone should drive.

pokefiend_13
26th June 2008, 9:09 PM
Second these guys are already criminals, they are already breaking the law, why would they want to pay for a Drivers License when they are already driving for free?

For one, they need employment, and not many employers hire workers without a driver license.


Third and most of all this only adds to the long list of benifits that entises these criminals to come over here. Doing this is the absolute opposite of what we should be doing.

It's a small price to pay, for keeping the public much more safe and apprehending illegal aliens faster.


There is much extreme ignorance in this thread. However, non-citizens should not be able to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and not everyone should drive.

The problem is; that still won't stop illegal immigrants from driving. The only difference with allowing them to get driver licenses--the government is keeping its roads safer.

pokefiend_13
26th June 2008, 9:12 PM
Second these guys are already criminals, they are already breaking the law, why would they want to pay for a Drivers License when they are already driving for free?

For one, they need employment, and not many employers hire workers without a driver license.


Third and most of all this only adds to the long list of benifits that entises these criminals to come over here. Doing this is the absolute opposite of what we should be doing.

It's a small price to pay, for keeping the public much more safe and apprehending illegal aliens faster.


There is much extreme ignorance in this thread. However, non-citizens should not be able to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen. Driving is a privilege, not a right, and not everyone should drive.

The problem is; that still won't stop illegal immigrants from driving. The only difference with allowing them to get driver licenses--the government is keeping its roads safer.

BigLutz
26th June 2008, 9:15 PM
For one, they need employment, and not many employers hire workers without a driver license.

Seeing how you are from New York you probably do not know what Day Workers are. Basically these Illegals hang out around Bus stops, a truck pulls up, and they get in, go to work for the day on various projects, and get paid at the end of the day. These people dont go and do regular jobs, they seek out jobs that do not require papers.


It's a small price to pay, for keeping the public much more safe and apprehending illegal aliens faster.

Well again as I said, they wont go and get these Driver Lisence in fear of being arrested. As for keeping the public safer. The best way to keep the public safe is get these people out of the country.


The problem is; that still won't stop illegal immigrants from driving. The only difference with allowing them to get driver licenses--the government is keeping its roads safer.

So you think people who are classified as criminals from the Government are going to just waltz into their local Government building and identify themselves as criminals? They don't want to go back to Mexico, and they know that putting themselves on the Government radar is going to highten their chance of going back. Not to mention these people are already criminals already. They do not care about the law, you are basically giving them a choice. Go spend time, money, and get your name in the system. Or keep driving for free since you have already been breaking the laws. The illegals will choose continue to break the law every time.

pokefiend_13
26th June 2008, 9:31 PM
I'm aware not all illegal immigrants will follow through with this policy, however not all illegal aliens are Mexican bus boys. Many of them come here illegally to try to mold in with society for a better life than in their native country.

Besides that, many illegal immigrants commit crimes only out of desperation. (since committing a crime will only give illegals unneeded attention from the law enforcement) By giving them a choice, the government would be significantly lowering the publics crime rate.

BigLutz
26th June 2008, 9:44 PM
I'm aware not all illegal immigrants will follow through with this policy, however not all illegal aliens are Mexican bus boys. Many of them come here illegally to try to mold in with society for a better life than in their native country.

And by doing that they usually take cheap jobs either through the labor field such as yard work, or through the construction field. There are very few Illegals that are able to get a real job these days becuase employers are required by law to make sure they are here legally.


Besides that, many illegal immigrants commit crimes only out of desperation. (since committing a crime will only give illegals unneeded attention from the law enforcement) By giving them a choice, the government would be significantly lowering the publics crime rate.

I am sure the many many police officers that have been killed by Illegals in the past few years around here would be glad to know that they died becuase Illegals only did the crime out of desperation. Lets not forget that even BEING here is a crime they are comitting. Not to mention that we are getting more and more coming over to just set up new gang territory on the other side of the Rio Grande.

Cutiebunny
27th June 2008, 2:56 AM
Many of them come here illegally to try to mold in with society for a better life than in their native country.

LMAO.

Most of them come here just to make money and return home to their country a richer person. They have no desire to stay in this country nor to contribute to it. They're here to blindly raid us and then leave when they've taken all that they can. Also, a good portion of our illegals are criminals and are involved in some of the most notorious gangs around. Gangs such as the Mara Salvatrucha, a gang which even most of your hardended police officers fear, were started(and fed) by illegal Mexican and El Salvadorian immigrants in the US.


Besides that, many illegal immigrants commit crimes only out of desperation.

It's all 'bout the Benjamins, G.


By giving them a choice, the government would be significantly lowering the publics crime rate.

How can you equate having a driver's license as lowering the public crime rate? The two are unrelated. ICE can still round up these illegals and deport them, regardless of whether they have a driver's license or not.

GhostAnime
27th June 2008, 3:06 AM
there are two different view points to this:

if you want to END illegal immigration, you need strict laws. no appeasement. that includes deporting them and throwing them out. that simple. reduce the incentive to come and they'll think twice.

if you want it to continue but only because you think they come for a better life.. then, well, that's you.

of course, i personally don't see why they can't do it legally. so i prefer the first position.

Irith_Locke
27th June 2008, 4:34 AM
there are two different view points to this:

if you want to END illegal immigration, you need strict laws. no appeasement. that includes deporting them and throwing them out. that simple. reduce the incentive to come and they'll think twice.

if you want it to continue but only because you think they come for a better life.. then, well, that's you.

of course, i personally don't see why they can't do it legally. so i prefer the first position.

They do it illegally because it's expensive to do it legally and oftentimes they get rejected anyways. Mexico sucks, so they come illegally anyway.

And a lot of them DO come for jobs and stuff. People from other central American countries are immigrating to Mexico illegally, and they suck up jobs in Mexico. So then the Mexicans come north. They go back because they don't want to displace their families. They view it like going into the city for work, then going back to the suburbs with their family.

Of course, that causes problems, but you have to see it from their perspective.

BigLutz
27th June 2008, 5:01 AM
They do it illegally because it's expensive to do it legally and oftentimes they get rejected anyways. Mexico sucks, so they come illegally anyway.

Okay so we should forgive people for their crimes becuase their life is hard? My family has been hit hard by the housing crisis, does that give me the right to go hold up a Convenience Store? By your logic I should be allowed to becuase life is hard and it is expensive to do stuff legally. What about rob your house? Can I do that?


And a lot of them DO come for jobs and stuff.

Havnt been to the border have ya?


People from other central American countries are immigrating to Mexico illegally, and they suck up jobs in Mexico.

Umm that is a lie, Mexico has the strongest Immigration laws around, which is why they tend to bypass Mexico. If you are caught in Mexico as a illegal and are not heading to the border. You usually do not make it out alive, and if you do, you tend to be beaten, broken, and starving, as you are kicked out at the border.


So then the Mexicans come north. They go back because they don't want to displace their families. They view it like going into the city for work, then going back to the suburbs with their family.

Except of course they are breaking the law, taking up jobs, and hogging tax payers money. Drug dealers go to work too you know, as do thieves, as do a wide variety of criminals. What do they have in common with Illegals? They all are breaking the law.


Of course, that causes problems, but you have to see it from their perspective.

I do see it from their perspective, I also see it from the perspective of the border towns that do not know how much longer till the Mexican gangs really spill over. Or the perspective of the mother who has to watch their son go through drug withdrawls becuase that truck carrying illegals was also trafficing drugs. Or from the perspective of a Nurse in California who is getting laid off becuase their hospitals cannot handle the flood of illegals and has to shut down.

There are many perspectives, including those that comit other crimes for money just like what these illegals are doing. Now how about we start glorifying the robbers? Becuase in reality they are no different than the Illegals.

Cutiebunny
27th June 2008, 8:02 AM
I agree with Lutz. We need to make stronger immigration laws and borders so as to not only protect our citizens, but to make it so that coming to the US is so impossibly difficult as an illegal immigrant. We cannot reward people for coming here illegally. Which is why I strongly feel that we, as a country, should not grant US citizenship to anyone who is born here. If you want to be a citizen at birth, one of your parents must either be a citizen or legal permanent resident AND you have to prove it.

pokefiend_13
27th June 2008, 2:54 PM
For the record, not all illegal aliens come from Mexico's border and reside in the southern states. >.> Too many people in this thread are over-generalizing illegal immigration into one assortment.

mrhiyuck
27th June 2008, 3:03 PM
There is exaggeration and truth in this thread.

I don't think we should start handing out lisense to illegals. Not that I'm generalizing them into criminals, but it would just be a bad idea. It's pretty much giving fake IDs out because there is no way to prove all the information they gave you. Which could makes things alot worse now that they have "ID."

The real solution to this problem would be: stronger security and to make it easier to become legal in this country. Obviously check them as they come in, and if they aren't criminals, give them their papers. I have no problems with them in our country as long as they are paying taxes and doing their part in society. And if they happen to be criminals, then, just like everyone else, have the same consequences.

GhostAnime
27th June 2008, 3:37 PM
Obviously check them as they come in
why is this so obvious? you just bring more and more since they know they can do it illegally.

freakeh eevee
27th June 2008, 3:41 PM
If they're illegal, the only thing they should be doing is getting out o.O
I mean, they're called illegal immigrants because they entered the country illegally, right?
Hence, if they do find some loophole to stay here, they shouldn't get many rights at all. Maybe as an incentive to leave ._.

mrhiyuck
27th June 2008, 3:53 PM
why is this so obvious? you just bring more and more since they know they can do it illegally.

And we're their still getting in illegially and now we want to give them lisenses? If they're here anyway make them pay taxes.

GhostAnime
27th June 2008, 4:00 PM
EDIT: actually, i don't think you got my point.

i was questioning why you wanted to 'check them in'.

BigLutz
27th June 2008, 4:48 PM
For the record, not all illegal aliens come from Mexico's border and reside in the southern states. >.> Too many people in this thread are over-generalizing illegal immigration into one assortment.

No just a great majority of them, hell we cut off Illegal Immigration from the Mexican Border and we wouldnt have a problem with it.

mrhiyuck
27th June 2008, 6:51 PM
EDIT: actually, i don't think you got my point.

i was questioning why you wanted to 'check them in'.

I may be misunderstanding you... but I don't get what your saying. I just want the ones that are in the country or trying to get in to have papers so they have to pay taxes, etc.

GhostAnime
27th June 2008, 7:12 PM
but giving them an easy way in despite breaking the rules just encourages more of them to do it. thus, the problem isn't solved.

pokefiend_13
27th June 2008, 9:16 PM
No just a great majority of them, hell we cut off Illegal Immigration from the Mexican Border and we wouldnt have a problem with it.

The policy this topic is concerning has nothing much to do with ridding massive illegal immigration, because frankly that's never gonna quite happen--as long as our country's standard of living continues to heighten.

What this policy does offer is more safety to its citizen's against the ignorance illegal aliens traditionally have to national traffic rules and signs. Additionally, this policy will supply law enforcement with new faces and information, so they can operate more effectively in stopping repeated crimes.

The policy in discussion is highly inexpensive (in fact it may help the economy by lowering insurance costs), and shows some effective promise since the policy is currently active in five states, including New Mexico. The only thing stopping more states from adopting this policy is its immense unpopularity--which in my opinion is mostly due to the public's ill taste to immigrants as a whole.

GhostAnime
27th June 2008, 9:27 PM
so what's the difference between just sending them back and giving them the ability to drive.. ?

BigLutz
27th June 2008, 9:54 PM
The policy this topic is concerning has nothing much to do with ridding massive illegal immigration, because frankly that's never gonna quite happen--as long as our country's standard of living continues to heighten.

Yeah if you cut down on the border either through a wall or various other security measures to keep the smugglers from making it across easier. And you are going to start ridding the country of Illigal Immigration, after that it is just a matter of time that it takes to round them up in this country.


What this policy does offer is more safety to its citizen's against the ignorance illegal aliens traditionally have to national traffic rules and signs.

Except even basic logic will tell you these people are not going to go toward this policy, and even then it helps provide just another incentive for them to come over.


Additionally, this policy will supply law enforcement with new faces and information, so they can operate more effectively in stopping repeated crimes.

Why not just deport them in the first place? If they are coming to this place to sign up for a Driver's Lisence then they are admitting to a crime. They are basically admitting to stealing.


The policy in discussion is highly inexpensive (in fact it may help the economy by lowering insurance costs),

Do you honestly believe these thieves will actually go and pay for insurance? Are you kidding me?! They are already working for low wages, and most of them are sending what money they are getting back home. In other words they are supporting themselves as much as they can and their families. They are not going to pay for anything else since it will take money away from their family that they can sit home. Not to mention these guys are not the most law abiding citizens in the first place. They know if they get pulled over there is a chance of being thrown to ICE. So why waste money on Insurance?!


and shows some effective promise since the policy is currently active in five states, including New Mexico. The only thing stopping more states from adopting this policy is its immense unpopularity--which in my opinion is mostly due to the public's ill taste to immigrants as a whole.

Wait hold on, do not pull the "We hate Illegals, so we hate Immigrants" Bull ****. That is utter stupidity and I would ask you to immediatly retract or rephrase that NOW.

pokefiend_13
28th June 2008, 4:13 AM
Yeah if you cut down on the border either through a wall or various other security measures to keep the smugglers from making it across easier. And you are going to start ridding the country of Illigal Immigration, after that it is just a matter of time that it takes to round them up in this country.

Building a wall around the mexican border is seriously a bad idea. It'd cost millions of tax dollars just to build it, and even then, the only thing stopping an illegal immigrant from crossing over is a cheap ladder.

The only true method of keeping the border protected from illegal aliens is by investing billions of tax dollars each year to have personalized guards watching over every acre of the border on a 24/7 schedule. This force of course will collapse within around a year due to bureaucratic greed & corruption.


Except even basic logic will tell you these people are not going to go toward this policy, and even then it helps provide just another incentive for them to come over.

Why not just deport them in the first place? If they are coming to this place to sign up for a Driver's Lisence then they are admitting to a crime. They are basically admitting to stealing.

It would seem you haven't done enough reading on the subject. The general consensus of this policy is to give applicants filing out a Driver's Permit application, the freedom of not being forced by law to give a Social Security number out. In doing so, the applicant will receive an altered Driver Permit/License. One that will give the person the privilege of driving, but limit the person's freedoms, such as driving out of state, boarding a plane, buying a gun, etc., etc.

To own one, wouldn't mean so much that you're an illegal alien, but that you've refused/forgot to give your Social Security number out to the DMV.


Do you honestly believe these thieves will actually go and pay for insurance? Are you kidding me?! They are already working for low wages, and most of them are sending what money they are getting back home. In other words they are supporting themselves as much as they can and their families. They are not going to pay for anything else since it will take money away from their family that they can sit home. Not to mention these guys are not the most law abiding citizens in the first place. They know if they get pulled over there is a chance of being thrown to ICE. So why waste money on Insurance?!

I'm certain what I said was fairly easy to interpret correctly.

Less car accidents = cheaper car insurance

I blame you for the misinterpretation.


Wait hold on, do not pull the "We hate Illegals, so we hate Immigrants" Bull ****. That is utter stupidity and I would ask you to immediatly retract or rephrase that NOW.

I'll gladly, once you stop ignorantly generalizing/assuming every illegal alien's motives, ambitions and origins.


so what's the difference between just sending them back and giving them the ability to drive.. ?

Money. And lots of it.

BigLutz
28th June 2008, 5:19 AM
Building a wall around the mexican border is seriously a bad idea. It'd cost millions of tax dollars just to build it, and even then, the only thing stopping an illegal immigrant from crossing over is a cheap ladder.

Well for one it wouldn't be "a Cheap Ladder" as we have seen with Isreal, a wall is a wonderful detorant. As for the millions it will cost. We lose nearly 40 Billion with Illegals each year. I would rather lose a couple of million with a wall, than billions and billions.


The only true method of keeping the border protected from illegal aliens is by investing billions of tax dollars each year to have personalized guards watching over every acre of the border on a 24/7 schedule. This force of course will collapse within around a year due to bureaucratic greed & corruption.

Well that and a wall, but mind you a insane amount of drugs and crime come over the border, not to mention the possibility of terrorists as what has happened when a Iraqi Terrorist tried to cross through from Mexico. Having more border guards and a wall would be a wonderful thing right now.



It would seem you haven't done enough reading on the subject. The general consensus of this policy is to give applicants filing out a Driver's Permit application, the freedom of not being forced by law to give a Social Security number out. In doing so, the applicant will receive an altered Driver Permit/License. One that will give the person the privilege of driving, but limit the person's freedoms, such as driving out of state, boarding a plane, buying a gun, etc., etc.

And thus provide another insentive for them to come over here and take up more resources.


To own one, wouldn't mean so much that you're an illegal alien, but that you've refused/forgot to give your Social Security number out to the DMV.

At that case then the person can go home and bring back their Social Security Number. Giving out identity cards like this with out proof of citizenship and who you are. Leads to a wide variety of headaches, and is potentially dangerous to this country.


I'm certain what I said was fairly easy to interpret correctly.

Less car accidents = cheaper car insurance

I blame you for the misinterpretation.

And thus you have also misinterpreted what I said. These people are not going to spend a single cent on car insurance when that cent could go back home to their family in Mexico.

I blame you for the misinterpretation.


I'll gladly, once you stop ignorantly generalizing/assuming every illegal alien's motives, ambitions and origins.

Except their motives are clear, a majority come over looking for cheap illegal jobs, they suck up tax payer money. The others come over here for crime and drugs. The thing they both have in common IS THAT THEY ARE BOTH CRIMINALS!

But see the difference is you made a utterly stupid accertion that being Anti Illegal Immigrant means Anti Immigrant. This not only is a falacy, but only helps to show how narrow minded you are.


Money. And lots of it.

Yeah sending them back frees up all the money they are sucking up at our hospitals, schools, etc. Letting them stay here keeps them sucking up money.

Oh God I cant wait for Cutie to get here. I would suggest for you to run and hide right now... Run... and... HIDE!

chuboy
28th June 2008, 6:21 AM
I don't really think it matters. Eventually petrol will be so expensive that only people who are richer than the upper-class REAL Americans can afford to drive.

But I suppose if they can prove they are contributing more than unemployed Americans they should be allowed to.

pokefiend_13
28th June 2008, 7:17 PM
Well for one it wouldn't be "a Cheap Ladder" as we have seen with Isreal, a wall is a wonderful detorant.

You can't sincerely compare Israelis to Mexicans. Mexicans have a large assortment of modern-day resources. Without personalized guards, Mexicans will easily bypass through some helpless wall.


And thus provide another insentive for them to come over here and take up more resources.

If you really care about lowering the incentives for illegal aliens coming over, you should focus on our high standard of living, since it's truly the only deciding factor illegal aliens care about.


At that case then the person can go home and bring back their Social Security Number. Giving out identity cards like this with out proof of citizenship and who you are. Leads to a wide variety of headaches, and is potentially dangerous to this country.

Now you're just insulting the intelligence of the makers of this policy. Other than permitting the person the privilege of driving, there isn't much these sort of "limited" driver licenses can do for a person. I doubt they can even be used to confirm one's age.


And thus you have also misinterpreted what I said. These people are not going to spend a single cent on car insurance when that cent could go back home to their family in Mexico.

I blame you for the misinterpretation.

I didn't misinterpret anything. I was talking about how with less car accident's, people's car insurance rates will go down.

The following post you began ranting off about how illegal aliens will never buy/pay for car insurance--which was completely irrelevant to what I was explaining.

I guess its too much for you to admit when you're wrong.


Except their motives are clear, a majority come over looking for cheap illegal jobs, they suck up tax payer money. The others come over here for crime and drugs. The thing they both have in common IS THAT THEY ARE BOTH CRIMINALS!

... ... is that how you view them all? :O


But see the difference is you made a utterly stupid accertion that being Anti Illegal Immigrant means Anti Immigrant. This not only is a falacy, but only helps to show how narrow minded you are.


The only thing stopping more states from adopting this policy is its immense unpopularity--which in my opinion is mostly due to the public's ill taste to immigrants as a whole.

Way to put words in my mouth. Do you do this to every opposing debater?

Anyway, every nation has some significant amount of prejudice/intolerance to immigrants and/or foreigners. Don't dare try to spin America any differently.


Oh God I cant wait for Cutie to get here. I would suggest for you to run and hide right now... Run... and... HIDE!

... >.> hope she'll/he'll at least do some reading on the subject first.

BigLutz
28th June 2008, 7:45 PM
You can't sincerely compare Israelis to Mexicans. Mexicans have a large assortment of modern-day resources. Without personalized guards, Mexicans will easily bypass through some helpless wall.

Well for one no one is saying there wont be border guards. But yeah I will compare the two walls, infact the Israeli wall is more challenging becuase there is a even bigger drive for the Palestinians to get over the wall.


If you really care about lowering the incentives for illegal aliens coming over, you should focus on our high standard of living, since it's truly the only deciding factor illegal aliens care about.

We're not going to bring our standard of living down to the hell hole of Mexico just to send these criminals back. Not to mention there are other reasons many of them come over here.


Now you're just insulting the intelligence of the makers of this policy. Other than permitting the person the privilege of driving, there isn't much these sort of "limited" driver licenses can do for a person. I doubt they can even be used to confirm one's age.

Yeah the people that created these are idiots. Giving out what can amount as identification cards to anyone who walks in with out knowing their history or basic background is utterly dangerous, even if the uses are limited.

And I do wonder... who is going to pay for this? Obviously the Illegals wont since they dont have the money. So who is going to pay for the production and creation of all of these cards?


I didn't misinterpret anything. I was talking about how with less car accident's, people's car insurance rates will go down.

But you are forgetting that these people wont be buying car insurance, especially when the money is useful elsewhere. Not to mention the Car Insurance Companies wont insure people who could be deported at any moment.


The following post you began ranting off about how illegal aliens will never buy/pay for car insurance--which was completely irrelevant to what I was explaining.

Oh it was entirely relavent, you believe that by giving out Drivers Lisence will encourage them to buy car insurance. The problem is that is utterly stupid and it wont work.


I guess its too much for you to admit when you're wrong.

Or for you to use logic.


... ... is that how you view them all? :O

All of them are criminals, that is a fact, by coming over here they are comitting a crime. Which is why we call them ILLEGALS.



Way to put words in my mouth. Do you do this to every opposing debater?

Only to idiots.


Anyway, every nation has some significant amount of prejudice/intolerance to immigrants and/or foreigners. Don't dare try to spin America any differently.

Never said they werent, but infering the people are against a Illegal Immigrant policy becuase they are against immigrants is entirely disgusting and pathetically stupid.


... >.> hope she'll/he'll at least do some reading on the subject first.

Its a She, she works in Immigration also, kicking them out of the country each day. And she will eat you alive.

chuboy
29th June 2008, 4:09 AM
That's a shame...I really thought this time BigLutz would actually refute all his arguments, and not simply throw an insult back at the ones he didn't like...honestly dude, get on with the debate and stop telling everybody else how stupid you think they are. You make many statements...not much to back them up, or backed up with pretty questionable logic.

I will now back that previous statement up with some evidence.

Not to mention there are other reasons many of them come over here.

The problem is that is utterly stupid and it wont work.

Except their motives are clear, a majority come over looking for cheap illegal jobs, they suck up tax payer money. The others come over here for crime and drugs.
Okays I'm done, run along and report me to a mod for flaming, or spam.

BigLutz
29th June 2008, 4:17 AM
That's a shame...I really thought this time BigLutz would actually refute all his arguments, and not simply throw an insult back at the ones he didn't like...honestly dude, get on with the debate and stop telling everybody else how stupid you think they are. You make many statements...not much to back them up, or backed up with pretty questionable logic.

If you havn't noticed I actually have, problem is I am dealing with some one that lacks the logic when thinking of this situation. Giving them lisence wont make them buy insurance, it wont bring down car accidents, instead it may actually increase them due to more drivers out on the road. It gives them more incentives to come over. And oh yes, you are placing ID Cards into the hands of people you have no idea of their back ground.

If you were not able to gleem any of that from my last post. Then it is not my fault.

chuboy
29th June 2008, 4:28 AM
If the problem is that ID cards are being given to the wrong people, then it isn't the immigrant's fault, it's the fault of the governing body. Don't blame immigrants if they can do the wrong thing, blame the people who allow it to happen. The good old police'n'government.

As for the car accidents statement, it makes sense that if illegal immigrants were allowed to take a driving test and pass, then accidents would be reduced because even though there would be slightly more driver (maybe), more drivers would actually be safe drivers. It doesn't matter how many cars are on the road, all that matters is how safe the drivers are. Immigrants aren't retarded, and they can learn to drive just like everybody else.

BigLutz
29th June 2008, 4:32 AM
If the problem is that ID cards are being given to the wrong people, then it isn't the immigrant's fault, it's the fault of the governing body. Don't blame immigrants if they can do the wrong thing, blame the people who allow it to happen. The good old police'n'government.

I never said we should blame the Immigrants. I am just pointing out the stupidity of giving out ID Cards aka Drivers Lisence to anyone that walks through the door. Especially when we are at war with terrorists that could waltz over the border with the next shipment, and pick up their own Government made ID card.


As for the car accidents statement, it makes sense that if illegal immigrants were allowed to take a driving test and pass, then accidents would be reduced because even though there would be slightly more driver (maybe), more drivers would actually be safe drivers. It doesn't matter how many cars are on the road, all that matters is how safe the drivers are.

Well lets also not forget that these people will be trying to do everything they can to keep from being pulled over in fear that being arrested will get them shipped back. I mean even with a Illegal Immigrant ID Card, being pulled over still gives them the risk of being thrown to ICE. So just giving them training isn't going to take away the main cause they get into accidents. And that is being too overly cautious.


Immigrants aren't retarded, and they can learn to drive just like everybody else.

Not saying they are not, but they are also too overly cautious. ( Most drive 50 MPH in the Left Lane >.< ) and that ends up with them actually getting into accidents. Not to mention these people actually learn to drive in Mexico before traveling over the border, I mean Mexico may be close to being third world, but they do have Drivers Ed over there.

chuboy
29th June 2008, 4:48 AM
I never said we should blame the Immigrants. I am just pointing out the stupidity of giving out ID Cards aka Drivers Lisence to anyone that walks through the door. Especially when we are at war with terrorists that could waltz over the border with the next shipment, and pick up their own Government made ID card.
Okay, well then the answer to that potential issue is ramping up whatever screening goes on. I think it should be easier for people who want to come to America and work to do so. Every day, unemployed people suck money out of 'the taxpayers', but these people are allowed all the rights that other Americans who could be arsed get.

What is fair about the fact that Mexicans who are prepared to work hard won't get the same rights as Americans who are lazy and leech off the system?

And as for the terrorists statement...well I really don't think that's relevant. If the USA is really THAT easy to get into, I'm surprised George Bush didn't do something ridiculous about it. He sent troops to Iraq to blow the sh*t out of 'terrorists', while seeming to overlook the fact that all it takes a truckful of asylum seekers? :rolleyes:

Well lets also not forget that these people will be trying to do everything they can to keep from being pulled over in fear that being arrested will get them shipped back. I mean even with a Illegal Immigrant ID Card, being pulled over still gives them the risk of being thrown to ICE. So just giving them training isn't going to take away the main cause they get into accidents. And that is being too overly cautious.
Okay, your stance seems to be 'we can't do it because of this correctable problem'. If they are having accidents out of fear, well don't make them afraid. Easy.



Not saying they are not, but they are also too overly cautious. ( Most drive 50 MPH in the Left Lane >.< ) and that ends up with them actually getting into accidents. Not to mention these people actually learn to drive in Mexico before traveling over the border, I mean Mexico may be close to being third world, but they do have Drivers Ed over there.
Once again, this isn't a roadblock, just a pothole. Easily correctable. You need to start stating reasons why it can't work, not why it isn't working ;)

BigLutz
29th June 2008, 5:14 AM
Okay, well then the answer to that potential issue is ramping up whatever screening goes on.

If we are going to ramp up screening then we should be able to arrest the Illegals that come in and this whole discussion becomes moot


I think it should be easier for people who want to come to America and work to do so. Every day, unemployed people suck money out of 'the taxpayers', but these people are allowed all the rights that other Americans who could be arsed get.

It should be easier, which is why we should punish those that break the laws. We have millions that are waiting across the sea to come to this country and do not have the luxery of sneaking across the border. All of them wanting to come here legally, and obey the law, all of them hard working as well. Why should they be punished?


What is fair about the fact that Mexicans who are prepared to work hard won't get the same rights as Americans who are lazy and leech off the system?

Becuase those Mexicans broke the law and do not deserve those rights. They can come here legally like every one else and they get the rights. But they should not get special treatment when we have many many others that wait patiently to get into this country the correct way and have obeyed the laws.


And as for the terrorists statement...well I really don't think that's relevant. If the USA is really THAT easy to get into, I'm surprised George Bush didn't do something ridiculous about it. He sent troops to Iraq to blow the sh*t out of 'terrorists', while seeming to overlook the fact that all it takes a truckful of asylum seekers? :rolleyes:

Well for one it IS that easy to get into this country, we had a Iraqi terrorist try to get in through the Mexican border just a few years ago, and he has been trying to shut down the border through a variety of ways including a wall.

The reason I made the terrorist comment is becuase many of the idiots arguing for this do not live near the border. It is a major security hole for terrorists, but it is also a security hole for gangs and criminals that cross over from Mexico every day. Which is something us that live near the border are just as concerned about.

And if you don't believe me, look at stories like this.

http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=339

Where the Mexican Chief of Police in Nuevo Laredo was gunned down after only 9 hours on the job. Or a wide variety of other lawless crimes that happen in the Mexican Border Towns.

Hell if I had a choice of either living in Neuvo Laredo or Baghdad, I would choose Baghdad. That is how bad it is just miles away from the Mexican Border. So many people like pokefiend_13 and yourself who live thousands of miles away from the border never see stories like these. For many they believe the wall is just the U.S. way to be mean to Illegal Aliens.

So I am going to say this, if you or pokefiend_13 really believe a wall isn't needed, really believe it is only to be mean to those poor Illegals. Then please, go and walk around in Neuvo Laredo or Agua Prieta where gun men killed a police chief in broad day light, or Palomas where the Police Chief of the town ran to the US to claim asylum. Go down to those towns, spend a week down there, and if you come back alive ( Chances are you wont ) then tell me how a wall is not needed. Or stepped up inforcement procedures are not needed.


Okay, your stance seems to be 'we can't do it because of this correctable problem'. If they are having accidents out of fear, well don't make them afraid. Easy.

So if the police pick up these criminals, and make no mistake, these people are criminals. Then they shouldn't turn them over to the proper authroities? That seems counter productive to the whole "Having a soverign border" thing, as well as trying to get the Criminals out of the country who continue to suck up Billions in resources each year, and are a strain on the community.


Once again, this isn't a roadblock, just a pothole. Easily correctable. You need to start stating reasons why it can't work, not why it isn't working ;)

Once again that idea is utterly stupid and actually helps keep more and more illegals in this country. Something we shouldn't be trying to do.

Cutiebunny
29th June 2008, 10:06 AM
When the cat's away, the liberals will play...


You can't sincerely compare Israelis to Mexicans. Mexicans have a large assortment of modern-day resources. Without personalized guards, Mexicans will easily bypass through some helpless wall.

Sorry. One eats burritos and the other eats kosher meat. Mai bad.

The Israelis have a large assortment of modern-day resources as well. Go to the Tel Aviv airport and you'll find military officers sporting M-16s. They are one of the better trained militias in the world.

I don't think the wall will be helpless. It will be defended by a larger, well trained Border Patrol. I'd personally like to see an electrified fence surrounded by some barbed wire, but the ACLU will whine that we're being mean again. But current walls along the border are generally manned by BP and they infrared censors, night vision, etc to help mantain its security.

Oh, and get rid of the food/water stations that the liberals put up. If they want to come to America and are stupid enough to go through the desert, then they deserve to fry if they're foolish to not bring enough supplies.




If you really care about lowering the incentives for illegal aliens coming over, you should focus on our high standard of living, since it's truly the only deciding factor illegal aliens care about.

As I said in an earlier post, it's all 'bout the Benjamins, G.

No, 'high standard of living' is not the only deciding factor that illegals carry about. It's called 'benefits'. These illegals know, through word of mouth, that they can get free medical care for dropping off another whelp in this country. By doing so, they can run down to immigration the next day with their deportation order in hand and cry that they can't be deported because it will negatively impact the future of their US citizen child.

If Americans wanted to stop illegal immigration, they'd only need to do 2 things:

1) End Jus Solis. If you want your child to be a US citizen upon birth, then either you or your spouse must be a legal permanent resident or US citizen at the time of the child's birth AND you must submit documentation to prove it.

2) No hand-outs. This means no free medical care, no food stamps, no government subsidized housing and no free education for the K-12 kiddies.



Now you're just insulting the intelligence of the makers of this policy. Other than permitting the person the privilege of driving, there isn't much these sort of "limited" driver licenses can do for a person. I doubt they can even be used to confirm one's age.

Actually, I find the makers of the policy to be rather incompetent, but then, I feel that way about many politicians.

Most immigrants aren't going to put their real name, let alone their age, out of fear that the information will be forwarded to ICE and they'll be subsequently deported.

The question then, is, what the hell is the point of giving them a driver's license anyways? They can pay $20 to get a good fake DL right now.


I didn't misinterpret anything. I was talking about how with less car accident's, people's car insurance rates will go down.

Ok, once again, how do you equate giving illegals a DL with less accidents? The two are unrelated. And then you need to take into account that the majority of these illegals aren't going to give their real names. So even if they do decide to get insurance, the insurance companies will be unable to follow up any claims that may ensue from their accidents because these illegals use a fake name. And what happens if their fake name just happens to be yours? Consider your credit rating, well, history...



The following post you began ranting off about how illegal aliens will never buy/pay for car insurance--which was completely irrelevant to what I was explaining.

I guess its too much for you to admit when you're wrong.

And where do you dig up this belief that giving illegals DLs will mean that there will be less accidents? They're still not going to want to get picked up by ICE regardless of whether or not they have a DL or not. These driver's licenses aren't going to prevent them from getting picked up by ICE. If anything, it'll increase it. Can you imagine the amount of 'poison pen letters' ICE will receive from concerned store owners regarding these illegals? What about the ones that get arrested and head to jail with their illegal version DL? In most cities, the cops cooperate with ICE and give them calls concerning an inmate's legal status. I read yesterday that in LA county alone, since this program was implemented in 2006, roughly 10,250 illegal immigrants had been deported.

I'm sure the boys and girls at Deportation are just wetting their lips thinking about the possibilities.




... ... is that how you view them all? :O

Yes, because that's what they are. CRIMINALS.






Way to put words in my mouth. Do you do this to every opposing debater?

No, only to liberals who bemoan the plight of the "hard working illegal who just wants to make a better living" debaters.

Most illegals are here to milk the system for all its worth because we allow them to do so. They suck up resources that could be better directed to helping those that are legally here. Then they demand that their children be taught in their native language because bothering to learn a few words is far too inconvient. They demand that all of our forms be written in their language because, once again, learning a few words in English is inconvient. They insist that they have rights despite being here illegally.

The problem is that most Americans only see Paco, their gardnerer or Maria, their housekeeper and say "Oh! They're just here to make a better living". What they don't see is Paco's sister, Lil' Joker, a long-standing gangmember of the MS-13(a gang started by illegal Mexican/El Salvadorians in LA) or Maria's husband, Raul, the man behind bars because he was convicted of grand theft. Perhaps they're not aware of the complications in Maria's pregnancy, which cost the taxpayer $50,000 of their money so Maria could give birth to a US citizen child. Or maybe they don't realize that Paco's elderly parents, who have never contributed a dime to our economy, happily collect their emergency $500/month social security payments from the comfort of their home in Mexico. How about Paco's girlfriend, Min Ju, an HIV positive woman who has now overstayed her visitor visa by two years and has been working in a massage parlor/ho-house without using protection? Or maybe Min Ju's pimp and daily client, Hirohito Ueno, who enterred the US on the visa waiver program's 90 day visit and is marrying his now-pregnant US citizen girlfriend?

This is the real face of illegal immigration. Not the suburbian tales your parents have told you.



Anyway, every nation has some significant amount of prejudice/intolerance to immigrants and/or foreigners. Don't dare try to spin America any differently.

But the difference is that they take care of their problems instead of letting liberal interfere. Do you know what they do in Spain to illegals? Those that are of African decent are dropped off in Morocco and told to find their way home. The Mexicans(big problem in Spain; elder care) are sent back on a plane. There is no "my child was born in Spain and it would be inconvient for them to return" garbage, but merely a buh-bye and a swift kick back on the plane.

That's what we need to do as well. The time for America opening their arms to every dummy that comes is over. If you want freedom and oppertunity, they have knives and guns in your country and I suggest you fight your government for it.




... >.> hope she'll/he'll at least do some reading on the subject first.

"I am woman, here me roar...in numbers too big to ignore....I AM WOMAAAAN!"

Considering that I deal with immigrants on a daily basis, I think I should know better than anyone here about the subject.

Rensch
29th June 2008, 10:57 AM
Yes, I do not see why illegal immigrants shouldn't be able to get a driver's license. I don't believe I've ever heard this debate over here in Holland.

pokefiend_13
29th June 2008, 4:55 PM
Well for one no one is saying there wont be border guards. But yeah I will compare the two walls, infact the Israeli wall is more challenging becuase there is a even bigger drive for the Palestinians to get over the wall.

I'm not gonna lie--I'm not certain how long this Israeli wall you speak of is, but looking at how small the nation of Israel is, the wall is likely only a very small fraction to the length of the U.S.-Mexican border. This of course will demand unspeakable amounts of man power to maintain it. Even if we can control the U.S.-Mexican border (which would probably only exist as a temporary solution), we still have illegal immigrants coming from other countries on stool-away boats, endangering our public. What solution do you have for them?


We're not going to bring our standard of living down to the hell hole of Mexico just to send these criminals back. Not to mention there are other reasons many of them come over here.

You kind of just agreed with what I've been saying all along. Ridding illegal immigration, in this day and age--is a myth, and the public will always be endangered by their ignorance to road signs/laws.


Yeah the people that created these are idiots. Giving out what can amount as identification cards to anyone who walks in with out knowing their history or basic background is utterly dangerous, even if the uses are limited.

If you're going to make such a strong claim, I demand you give valid examples of why this policy is "utterly dangerous". The policymakers have already made it clear that the only service these "ID cards" serve is proof that oneself can legally drive.


And I do wonder... who is going to pay for this? Obviously the Illegals wont since they dont have the money. So who is going to pay for the production and creation of all of these cards?

As already stated, the production and maintenance of this policy is very inexpensive. At best, this may cost each state taxpayer a nickel or dime to their annual taxes. I'd say that's a more than fair trade for the prevention of the death or harm to an innocent loved one.


But you are forgetting that these people wont be buying car insurance, especially when the money is useful elsewhere. Not to mention the Car Insurance Companies wont insure people who could be deported at any moment.

Oh it was entirely relavent, you believe that by giving out Drivers Lisence will encourage them to buy car insurance. The problem is that is utterly stupid and it wont work.

*sigh* A swing and a miss. It has came to my understanding that you don't know much about the insurance business.

As it stands true today, Car Insurance companies are constantly recording accident rates to calculate the most profitable and fairest deals to make with their costumers. Less car accidents = lower car insurance rates.


All of them are criminals, that is a fact, by coming over here they are comitting a crime. Which is why we call them ILLEGALS.

lol, nice way to dodge my question:


Except their motives are clear, a majority come over looking for cheap illegal jobs, they suck up tax payer money. The others come over here for crime and drugs.

So again, is that how you view them all?


Never said they werent, but infering the people are against a Illegal Immigrant policy becuase they are against immigrants is entirely disgusting and pathetically stupid.

Your way of spinning words out of context leads me to believe you're getting desperate, and desperate quickly.

It is a fact that a majority of U.S. citizens, as well as most citizens who have a native attachment to their country, will have low tolerance and understanding toward foreigners. I don't need the rejection of a policy to tell me this because, you'd have to be blind of human nature in order to deny such a clear fact.


Its a She, she works in Immigration also, kicking them out of the country each day. And she will eat you alive.

I'm interested in knowing where her work is stationed. She seems to have many valid solutions and points in handling illegal aliens from Mexico. But what about other illegal immigrants who cross over through boat harbors and ports. Whom I may add are probably even more dangerous to society due to their greater ignorance in American road laws/signs.

Cutie, I also believe you're oversimplifying the earning process of driver licenses--as you've addressed the policy much like a "give-out"--which anyone whose ever tried to earn a driver license will tell thats not true at all. (at least in NYS)


Ok, once again, how do you equate giving illegals a DL with less accidents?

It'll give them an incentive to learn the road signs and laws before they get behind a wheel--causing less avoidable accidents.


Most immigrants aren't going to put their real name, let alone their age, out of fear that the information will be forwarded to ICE and they'll be subsequently deported.

All law enforcement need is an updated face so they know who the license belongs to.

BigLutz
29th June 2008, 6:24 PM
I'm not gonna lie--I'm not certain how long this Israeli wall you speak of is, but looking at how small the nation of Israel is, the wall is likely only a very small fraction to the length of the U.S.-Mexican border.

Doesn't matter how long or small it is, it matters the design, and the intended purpose and how well that purpose is served.


This of course will demand unspeakable amounts of man power to maintain it.

And we can do it.

But you know as I have suggested in my last post, if you believe this wall is so undoable and so bad, why not travel down to Neuvo Laredo, or Agua Prieta, or Palomas. Leave your little Liberal Sancturary in New York, come down here to the border, and visit those towns. I will even pay for your air fair. ( But since you wont make it back alive, I will only have to pay for a one way trip. ) And after a week there, ( by some amazing way you do survive ) come back and talk about the border and not building a wall. And then you may have a bit of credibility.


Even if we can control the U.S.-Mexican border (which would probably only exist as a temporary solution), we still have illegal immigrants coming from other countries on stool-away boats, endangering our public. What solution do you have for them?

Well for one it isnt a temporary solution, second you are talking about a very small trickle compared to the torrent that we have now. We're always going to have Illegal Immigrants trying to get in, but right now we have thousands crossing each day, cutting off that access, will not only limit the drugs and crime coming in, but limit the people coming in to what would amount to ten or twenty each day at most.


You kind of just agreed with what I've been saying all along. Ridding illegal immigration, in this day and age--is a myth, and the public will always be endangered by their ignorance to road signs/laws.

Well for one it isnt a myth, put up the wall and choke off their main access, and then it becomes a matter of attrition as ICE and other agencies hunt down the ones we have here. And while in the short term the public will be endangered, by keeping thousands from coming in each day, and hunting down those that are here, in the long term they wont be.


If you're going to make such a strong claim, I demand you give valid examples of why this policy is "utterly dangerous". The policymakers have already made it clear that the only service these "ID cards" serve is proof that oneself can legally drive.

I already have, and as I said while these ID Cards may only be proof that oneself can legally drive, it will in the end be used for more than that. Just as Social Security cards were never intended to be used as documentation. You have people who you have no idea of their previous history being given Government Paid For cards that will be expanded to cover a variety of uses, I can promise you that.


As already stated, the production and maintenance of this policy is very inexpensive. At best, this may cost each state taxpayer a nickel or dime to their annual taxes. I'd say that's a more than fair trade for the prevention of the death or harm to an innocent loved one.

Well for one as I already mentioned it wont prevent their deaths, infact it may put more on the road, and since these people still fear ICE they will still be driving overly cautious with out insurance. Second you are asking the tax payers to fund the cards of up to 15 Million People, 15 Million People who are already taking over 40 Billion Dollars and taxes, and now you want the tax payers to give more? Sorry but Hell No.


*sigh* A swing and a miss. It has came to my understanding that you don't know much about the insurance business.

Insurance companies will not want to insure people that could be kicked out of the country at any moment. It is not good for buisness. So I would say it is you who do not know much about the insurance buisness.


As it stands true today, Car Insurance companies are constantly recording accident rates to calculate the most profitable and fairest deals to make with their costumers. Less car accidents = lower car insurance rates.

Except as I said they will not want to insure people that will be kicked out at any moment, nor will this card drop Car Accident rates as these people will still be worried about being pulled over and given to ICE. Your point is moot.


lol, nice way to dodge my question:

It is the truth.


So again, is that how you view them all?

In many ways that is how you view all of them, you can basically put them in two groups. The ones coming over here looking for a better life and money, and the ones coming over here to comit crimes.


Your way of spinning words out of context leads me to believe you're getting desperate, and desperate quickly.

Funny seeing how I am kicking your ***.


It is a fact that a majority of U.S. citizens, as well as most citizens who have a native attachment to their country, will have low tolerance and understanding toward foreigners. I don't need the rejection of a policy to tell me this because, you'd have to be blind of human nature in order to deny such a clear fact.

And people can have a low understanding of foreigners, but that isnt the reason that people reject this policy. It is becuase they do not want to give more insentives to criminals that come over here. The same people that reject this policy like myself, would welcome the Mexicans in with open arms if they went in through the current means to get into this country.

I know it is hard for you to understand, like well... most of this topic. But people that do not like this policy, do not hate it becuase it helps 'foreigners'. They hate it becuase it helps criminals who shouldnt be here in the first place.


I'm interested in knowing where her work is stationed. She seems to have many valid solutions and points in handling illegal aliens from Mexico. But what about other illegal immigrants who cross over through boat harbors and ports. Whom I may add are probably even more dangerous to society due to their greater ignorance in American road laws/signs.

You can be sure to ask her, but as I have pointed out that is a very small fraction compared to the rest that cross this border every day.


It'll give them an incentive to learn the road signs and laws before they get behind a wheel--causing less avoidable accidents.

Do you honestly believe that they do not do that already? They already have a insentive, to try and not get pulled over so they dont get thrown back into their own country.

Cutiebunny
30th June 2008, 10:01 AM
I'm not gonna lie--I'm not certain how long this Israeli wall you speak of is, but looking at how small the nation of Israel is, the wall is likely only a very small fraction to the length of the U.S.-Mexican border. This of course will demand unspeakable amounts of man power to maintain it. Even if we can control the U.S.-Mexican border (which would probably only exist as a temporary solution), we still have illegal immigrants coming from other countries on stool-away boats, endangering our public. What solution do you have for them?

Ahem.

1) Eliminate jus solis. Now your kids born here aren't US citizens.

2) No 'trough-slurping' for illegals. If you want health care and education for your whelps, pay for it. Of course, the US Surpreme Court ruled against preventing illegals from attending public school, but, with a staunchly conservative court now, perhaps we can put in another case to get that repealed.

3) Enforce employment laws. Start hitting up these companies for hiring illegals with fines and eliminate the word 'knowingly' as in 'knowingly hired illegal immigrants'. Get caught with one illegal, that's a $10,000 fine. Two illegals, $50,000 fine and make those companies pay up. Then you can route the money to social security so we can pay for our newly immigrated 75 yr old aunty who will never contribute a dime to the system but who will expect her emergency $500 check every month. I gurantee you that once this is enforced, every employer out there will EXPECT all current and future employees to prove that they are legally here in the country. This would make a great entreprenueral oppertunity as well for many potential US companies.




You kind of just agreed with what I've been saying all along. Ridding illegal immigration, in this day and age--is a myth, and the public will always be endangered by their ignorance to road signs/laws.

As I said, you can get rid of illegal immigration. You just have to make it so impossibly difficult and dangerous to these people that the only viable option will be to stay in their country and wait for their papers. Or fight for change in their country.




If you're going to make such a strong claim, I demand you give valid examples of why this policy is "utterly dangerous". The policymakers have already made it clear that the only service these "ID cards" serve is proof that oneself can legally drive.

Because background checks are not necessary to get a driver's license. And as these driver's licenses are a form of valid government issued ID that can be used to board a plane, the US is just setting itself up for another 9/11. The only difference is that since these people have likely used false names, the US will never catch them.

Bet the idiots who thought of this policy didn't think about that.




As already stated, the production and maintenance of this policy is very inexpensive. At best, this may cost each state taxpayer a nickel or dime to their annual taxes. I'd say that's a more than fair trade for the prevention of the death or harm to an innocent loved one.

You're not going to prevent any deaths by granting them a driver's license. Illegals drive already. Many of them have fake ID/DLs already. I know places where you can get a good quality DL, SSN and green card for $20 in any name of your choosing. I've personally thought of getting a green card with 'Cutey BUNI' on it, just for the hell of it, and seeing how far I can go with it. Might be something to do once I retire, that is, should the system be still be this broken and I actually want to live here.

What you are going to do is basically take some business away from these card vendors by allowing illegals to show up, make up a name and date of birth and in thirty minutes or less, get a DL. That's it.



*sigh* A swing and a miss. It has came to my understanding that you don't know much about the insurance business.

Really, the whole "I know more than you do" approach isn't working for you. You're a liberal idiot. Next question.


As it stands true today, Car Insurance companies are constantly recording accident rates to calculate the most profitable and fairest deals to make with their costumers. Less car accidents = lower car insurance rates.

Fairest deals? LMAO. They're a business. They don't do 'fair deals', they do 'profit margin'.

Car insurance companies are not going to want to insure people who applied and obtained DLs under false names. This is because, if they are arrested and their fingerprints are run and come up with a prior criminal or immigration history record, they're gonna be deported. So now, you're stuck with an accident bill and no one to pay the monthly insurance.




It is a fact that a majority of U.S. citizens, as well as most citizens who have a native attachment to their country, will have low tolerance and understanding toward foreigners. I don't need the rejection of a policy to tell me this because, you'd have to be blind of human nature in order to deny such a clear fact.

Ah, another liberal who believes that we're all bitter and cling to our guns. Now I know who Hussein appeals to.

You're an absolute bigot if you believe that. Lutz and I are against ILLEGAL immigration, not people who have waited for years, processed the appropriate paperworkd and paid all the fees overseas, in their home country. I applaud these people, many whom have waited up to 23 years to get the US. However, we both do not like those who come here, overstay their entry and then try to adjust or those who collect social security without contributing to the system.


I'm interested in knowing where her work is stationed.

Nunya buziness. But I will tell you that I'm at a port of entry.



She seems to have many valid solutions and points in handling illegal aliens from Mexico. But what about other illegal immigrants who cross over through boat harbors and ports. Whom I may add are probably even more dangerous to society due to their greater ignorance in American road laws/signs.

It's the same damn thing with the Mexicans; Eliminate all benefits and only provide benefits to people who have returned to their countries to apply for immigration benefits the right way. All asylum applications need to be handled at a US consular office. PERIOD.


Cutie, I also believe you're oversimplifying the earning process of driver licenses--as you've addressed the policy much like a "give-out"--which anyone whose ever tried to earn a driver license will tell thats not true at all. (at least in NYS)

Which perfectly explains why the drivers in Zoo York have some of the highest insurance rates in the country.

Getting a DL is a joke. You show your foriegn passport and they give you an application. Then you get the cheat notes for the written part of the test from your friend or from the internet. Then you pass and get your permit. Then Paco teaches you what some signs mean. Then you head to the DMV and insist to have a tester speak your language. Then the tester asks you in your language questions and to drive, and...voila...you have a DL!

That's how it works because the ACLU cries bloody murder if you make these 'poor immigrants' take the test in English.



It'll give them an incentive to learn the road signs and laws before they get behind a wheel--causing less avoidable accidents.

You don't travel much, do you?

Basic signs such as 'STOP' are universally the same. The only difference is that the 'STOP' part is written in the local language(s). The sign is still a red octagonal shape regardless of whether it is Spanish, French, Japanese, etc.



All law enforcement need is an updated face so they know who the license belongs to.

According to shows like CSI, we just need fingerprints...

BTW Poke, you can address the rest of the initial post I made to you. I'd like to see your rebuttal to my comments concerning the 'real side' of immigration, you know, the one involving Paco and Maria...?

pokefiend_13
30th June 2008, 6:04 PM
BTW Poke, you can address the rest of the initial post I made to you. I'd like to see your rebuttal to my comments concerning the 'real side' of immigration, you know, the one involving Paco and Maria...?

Which comments are you talking about? The ones I ignored, b/c I addressed them in lutz post or the ones that had no real relevance to the topic in hand?


Ahem.

1) Eliminate jus solis. Now your kids born here aren't US citizens.

2) No 'trough-slurping' for illegals. If you want health care and education for your whelps, pay for it. Of course, the US Surpreme Court ruled against preventing illegals from attending public school, but, with a staunchly conservative court now, perhaps we can put in another case to get that repealed.

3) Enforce employment laws. Start hitting up these companies for hiring illegals with fines and eliminate the word 'knowingly' as in 'knowingly hired illegal immigrants'. Get caught with one illegal, that's a $10,000 fine. Two illegals, $50,000 fine and make those companies pay up. Then you can route the money to social security so we can pay for our newly immigrated 75 yr old aunty who will never contribute a dime to the system but who will expect her emergency $500 check every month. I gurantee you that once this is enforced, every employer out there will EXPECT all current and future employees to prove that they are legally here in the country. This would make a great entreprenueral oppertunity as well for many potential US companies.


The question then, is, what the hell is the point of giving them a driver's license anyways? They can pay $20 to get a good fake DL right now.


The bolded part seems to contradict with the second quote. How are small, low-budget companies going to know if they've hired an illegal alien or not? If you ask me, this plan seems to put small businesses endanger of bankruptcy.

BTW I've noticed you've added a new obstacle to the list. Will the next one you add be "kill the members of the UCLA"? :p



Because background checks are not necessary to get a driver's license. And as these driver's licenses are a form of valid government issued ID that can be used to board a plane, the US is just setting itself up for another 9/11. The only difference is that since these people have likely used false names, the US will never catch them.

Bet the idiots who thought of this policy didn't think about that.

Wrong!

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=234828

Utah's policy is the most ideal one of them all.


Utah currently issues a different sort of license for people, including immigrants, who don’t have Social Security numbers. The state’s “driver privilege card” has red outlines and, at the top, states the card is “not valid identification for Utah government entity.”

“We paid very, very close attention to developments with Real ID and best practices,” said Jill Laws, a spokeswoman for Utah’s Department of Public Safety.

BTW, I read an even better article three days ago, but don't know where it is now sadly. :(



Fairest deals? LMAO. They're a business. They don't do 'fair deals', they do 'profit margin'.

"fair-deals", "profit-margins". What makes you think they're so different? In the end its still: less recorded car accidents = lower car insurance rates.



You're an absolute bigot if you believe that. Lutz and I are against ILLEGAL immigration, not people who have waited for years, processed the appropriate paperworkd and paid all the fees overseas, in their home country. I applaud these people, many whom have waited up to 23 years to get the US. However, we both do not like those who come here, overstay their entry and then try to adjust or those who collect social security without contributing to the system.

lololololololololololololol. *reads back to what I posted earlier, to confirm that I used the word "majority"*

You can't use lutz and yourself as an example, unless you two want to prove that you're the models of today's society.

I really don't understand why you two think its so uncommon.


Getting a DL is a joke. You show your foriegn passport and they give you an application. Then you get the cheat notes for the written part of the test from your friend or from the internet. Then you pass and get your permit. Then Paco teaches you what some signs mean. Then you head to the DMV and insist to have a tester speak your language. Then the tester asks you in your language questions and to drive, and...voila...you have a DL!

Golly, you must be a fairy, because you make it all sound so easy and simple. ^_^


Basic signs such as 'STOP' are universally the same. The only difference is that the 'STOP' part is written in the local language(s). The sign is still a red octagonal shape regardless of whether it is Spanish, French, Japanese, etc.

Awe, so if they all have same/similar stop signs, they must all have the same/similar road laws and other signs? correct?


According to shows like CSI, we just need fingerprints...

If they've collected them before and are in a safe database system, I believe so.

But you shouldn't let shows like CSI taint your mind of what's reality. Reminder nothing is ever so simple in the real world.


Well for one it isnt a temporary solution, second you are talking about a very small trickle compared to the torrent that we have now. We're always going to have Illegal Immigrants trying to get in, but right now we have thousands crossing each day, cutting off that access, will not only limit the drugs and crime coming in, but limit the people coming in to what would amount to ten or twenty each day at most.

So you agree that illegal immigration tactics, like the wall and heavy border patrol aren't the end all solution to illegal immigration and the government should still focus on public safety against the illegal immigrants?

Funny thing is, the only policy suggested for such a manner is the one in discussion. Tehehe.


I already have, and as I said while these ID Cards may only be proof that oneself can legally drive, it will in the end be used for more than that. Just as Social Security cards were never intended to be used as documentation. You have people who you have no idea of their previous history being given Government Paid For cards that will be expanded to cover a variety of uses, I can promise you that.

We'll wait and see if it ever happens in Utah.


Well for one as I already mentioned it wont prevent their deaths, infact it may put more on the road, and since these people still fear ICE they will still be driving overly cautious with out insurance. Second you are asking the tax payers to fund the cards of up to 15 Million People, 15 Million People who are already taking over 40 Billion Dollars and taxes, and now you want the tax payers to give more? Sorry but Hell No.

But you're doing it to protect the public. Whether you agree it's effective or not, That is the motive of the policy. Also It's not like the illegal immigrants don't pay a fee to earn one like everyone else.


Insurance companies will not want to insure people that could be kicked out of the country at any moment. It is not good for buisness. So I would say it is you who do not know much about the insurance buisness.

Please stop it. I've posted nothing about illegal immigrants buying car insurance, yet you keep on bringing up the topic as if it's some heated debate. Please, I don't know what else to post to make it anymore clear to you.



In many ways that is how you view all of them, you can basically put them in two groups. The ones coming over here looking for a better life and money, and the ones coming over here to comit crimes.

So contrary to what you posted two posts ago, you don't think all illegal immigrants come here for evil intentions?


Funny seeing how I am kicking your ***.

lolololololol. If by kicking ###, confusing the hell out of me--yes you have. You've done it very well, in fact. :)



I know it is hard for you to understand, like well... most of this topic. But people that do not like this policy, do not hate it becuase it helps 'foreigners'. They hate it becuase they believe it's just another liberal policy favoring illegal aliens.

Fixed with a much more accurate explanation. If only more people read up on the policy they would understand its purpose better.


Do you honestly believe that they do not do that already?

Yep, otherwise such a policy wouldn't need to exist.

BigLutz
30th June 2008, 6:27 PM
Utah's policy is the most ideal one of them all.

Actually that is anything but ideal, yes it has the border to keep it from being a ID for Government buildings, but that doesnt stop non Government buildings from using it or even being fooled by it. Not to mention Airport security who would only get a passing glance at it.


"fair-deals", "profit-margins". What makes you think they're so different? In the end its still: less recorded car accidents = lower car insurance rates.

Except as pointed out over and over again and not getting into your thick head, giving out drivers lisence wont lower accidents, infact it may increase them as there would be more cars on the road.


So you agree that illegal immigration tactics, like the wall and heavy border patrol aren't the end all solution to illegal immigration and the government should still focus on public safety against the illegal immigrants?

I think a wall or heavy border patrol is what is needed to fix the vast majority of problems caused by Illegal Immigration. And that public safety concerns should be the last thing on our minds.


Funny thing is, the only policy suggested for such a manner is the one in discussion. Tehehe.

Funny I didnt know we were discussing a border fence? Tehehe.


We'll wait and see if it ever happens in Utah.

Becuase Utah is such a large example of a border state with a heavy population of illegals. Thats like saying we should enact Mormon laws in New York and see what happens.


But you're doing it to protect the public.

The best way to protect the public is to kick them out.


Whether you agree it's effective or not, That is the motive of the policy. Also It's not like the illegal immigrants don't pay a fee to earn one like everyone else.

Well for one motive or not we have to look at what will come from this, including incentives it gives for more Illegals to come over here.


Please stop it. I've posted nothing about illegal immigrants buying car insurance, yet you keep on bringing up the topic as if it's some heated debate. Please, I don't know what else to post to make it anymore clear to you.

If they dont have car insurance then they shouldnt be on the road, and in that point having these cards is moot.


So contrary to what you posted two posts ago, you don't think all illegal immigrants come here for evil intentions?

Show me where I said all Illegals have evil intentions? I believe some do, but not all.


lolololololol. If by kicking ###, confusing the hell out of me--yes you have. You've done it very well, in fact. :)

Well seeing how you are losing this argument and have been made to look like a uninformed idiot that has no handle on the Illegal situation....


Fixed with a much more accurate explanation. If only more people read up on the policy they would understand its purpose better.

Liberal or Conservative has nothing to do with it. As I said people who hate this hate it becuase it gives more benifits to criminals when we should be working on less insentives, not to mention it causes even more problems and security concerns. If you want to paint Liberals as being on the side of crimnals who should not be in this country then fine, but if I were a Liberal I would be utterly offended.


Yep, otherwise such a policy wouldn't need to exist.

And see this goes to show you have nieve you are. Living in a state where I drive by many Illegals just on my day to work, I can tell you they know the road sides and rules of the road.

Also I see you have not taken up my offer to go down to a border town, and would rather stay at home far far away from the Criminals that you desperately want to give more benifits to.

Cutiebunny
1st July 2008, 8:06 AM
Which comments are you talking about? The ones I ignored, b/c I addressed them in lutz post or the ones that had no real relevance to the topic in hand?

The one I made regarding the real side of illegal immigration, or this:

The problem is that most Americans only see Paco, their gardnerer or Maria, their housekeeper and say "Oh! They're just here to make a better living". What they don't see is Paco's sister, Lil' Joker, a long-standing gangmember of the MS-13(a gang started by illegal Mexican/El Salvadorians in LA) or Maria's husband, Raul, the man behind bars because he was convicted of grand theft. Perhaps they're not aware of the complications in Maria's pregnancy, which cost the taxpayer $50,000 of their money so Maria could give birth to a US citizen child. Or maybe they don't realize that Paco's elderly parents, who have never contributed a dime to our economy, happily collect their emergency $500/month social security payments from the comfort of their home in Mexico. How about Paco's girlfriend, Min Ju, an HIV positive woman who has now overstayed her visitor visa by two years and has been working in a massage parlor/ho-house without using protection? Or maybe Min Ju's pimp and daily client, Hirohito Ueno, who enterred the US on the visa waiver program's 90 day visit and is marrying his now-pregnant US citizen girlfriend?

This is the real face of illegal immigration. Not the suburbian tales your parents have told you.

...for short.



The bolded part seems to contradict with the second quote. How are small, low-budget companies going to know if they've hired an illegal alien or not? If you ask me, this plan seems to put small businesses endanger of bankruptcy.

How about giving US Citizenship and Immigration a call? Our friendly operators are standing by.


BTW I've noticed you've added a new obstacle to the list. Will the next one you add be "kill the members of the UCLA"? :p

The ACLU needs to change their name to the AACLU(Anti-American Civil Liberties Union) because, let's face it, all they ever take interest in defending are the illegals.




Wrong!

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=234828

Utah's policy is the most ideal one of them all.

Meh, Lutz already took care of this. And seriously, I don't think that they thought about illegals using false IDs and boarding planes with those false IDs.




BTW, I read an even better article three days ago, but don't know where it is now sadly. :(

Then STFU.




"fair-deals", "profit-margins". What makes you think they're so different? In the end its still: less recorded car accidents = lower car insurance rates.

Because a fair deal is one which would benefit the consumer. Profit margins benefit the fat cats.

Illegals will still get into accidents.




lololololololololololololol. *reads back to what I posted earlier, to confirm that I used the word "majority"*

You can't use lutz and yourself as an example, unless you two want to prove that you're the models of today's society.

I really don't understand why you two think its so uncommon.

Lutz and I are the voices of Middle America. The people who are tired of seeing our jobs shipped overseas or handed out like candy to people who are here illegally in this country.




Golly, you must be a fairy, because you make it all sound so easy and simple. ^_^

I'm a bunny and yes, it is simple. But when you mix in politicians who are financially interested in keeping the status quo, it then becomes a tad harder to fix.



Awe, so if they all have same/similar stop signs, they must all have the same/similar road laws and other signs? correct?

WRONG!

Most nations do not drive on the same side of the street as Americans do. They also have different laws as well concerning speed limits, right of way and things of that nature.




If they've collected them before and are in a safe database system, I believe so.

But you shouldn't let shows like CSI taint your mind of what's reality. Reminder nothing is ever so simple in the real world.

I'm not telling you what tools we have at our disposal. But if CSI were based on reality, a database of fingerprints would be what we would use.




So you agree that illegal immigration tactics, like the wall and heavy border patrol aren't the end all solution to illegal immigration and the government should still focus on public safety against the illegal immigrants?

The afformentioned policies concerning how to stem the tide of illegals is what needs to be implemented. You have to make such a strong deterrent that those who enter illegally face a great risk of being killed, and even if they make it, will be unable to reap any rewards. Deterrents like heavy border patrol and walls do help in that solution.


Funny thing is, the only policy suggested for such a manner is the one in discussion. Tehehe.

If you don't like the discussion, you don't have to discuss. Tehehe.



But you're doing it to protect the public. Whether you agree it's effective or not, That is the motive of the policy. Also It's not like the illegal immigrants don't pay a fee to earn one like everyone else.

They generally don't pay fees. That's why they're a burden on the economy.


Please stop it. I've posted nothing about illegal immigrants buying car insurance, yet you keep on bringing up the topic as if it's some heated debate. Please, I don't know what else to post to make it anymore clear to you.

Eh? What's this, then?


As it stands true today, Car Insurance companies are constantly recording accident rates to calculate the most profitable and fairest deals to make with their costumers. Less car accidents = lower car insurance rates.



So contrary to what you posted two posts ago, you don't think all illegal immigrants come here for evil intentions?

I think they all have malicious intentions. They're not here to contribute to America. They're here to milk it for all its worth and then go back home with their money in tow.




lolololololol. If by kicking ###, confusing the hell out of me--yes you have. You've done it very well, in fact. :)

Lutz is a far better debater than you. End of debate.

pokefiend_13
1st July 2008, 5:56 PM
Actually that is anything but ideal, yes it has the border to keep it from being a ID for Government buildings, but that doesnt stop non Government buildings from using it or even being fooled by it. Not to mention Airport security who would only get a passing glance at it.

You're so right. That big red the "P" next to the bold red text reading "Driving Privilege" looks so darn unnotice. No security guard or law enforcement agent will ever notice it.


Lutz is a far better debater than you. End of debate.

Ah, I can see why Lutz brown-noses you so much.


Well seeing how you are losing this argument and have been made to look like a uninformed idiot that has no handle on the Illegal situation....

At least I'm supporting my side with proof and valid explanations, fed from a considerable amount of research. Cutie and you especially are half of the time using assumptions, opinions and exaggerations to build your argument.

True, Cutie and probably you too, know more about the illegal immigration process than I'll ever know, but that doesn't make the two of you professionals on policy making nor experts on the outcome of this policy. What's more is that you're arguments have been solely focused around the issues and conflicts of 5 or 4 states. This policy is concerning more than just the mexican border states, it concerns every state. Or do you two just assume that if its not ideal for these four, five states, then it shouldn't be administrated in any state? You're probably gonna say I'm wrong but, from what I've read, it is the truth.



The one I made regarding the real side of illegal immigration, or this:

The problem is that most Americans only see Paco, their gardnerer or Maria, their housekeeper and say "Oh! They're just here to make a better living". What they don't see is Paco's sister, Lil' Joker, a long-standing gangmember of the MS-13(a gang started by illegal Mexican/El Salvadorians in LA) or Maria's husband, Raul, the man behind bars because he was convicted of grand theft. Perhaps they're not aware of the complications in Maria's pregnancy, which cost the taxpayer $50,000 of their money so Maria could give birth to a US citizen child. Or maybe they don't realize that Paco's elderly parents, who have never contributed a dime to our economy, happily collect their emergency $500/month social security payments from the comfort of their home in Mexico. How about Paco's girlfriend, Min Ju, an HIV positive woman who has now overstayed her visitor visa by two years and has been working in a massage parlor/ho-house without using protection? Or maybe Min Ju's pimp and daily client, Hirohito Ueno, who enterred the US on the visa waiver program's 90 day visit and is marrying his now-pregnant US citizen girlfriend?

This is the real face of illegal immigration. Not the suburbian tales your parents have told you.

...for short.

This is pretty much irrelevant. Nevertheless, I find it oh so funny how you think we're all so ignorant up here. I think its your parents who have been telling you lies.


Lutz and I are the voices of Middle America. The people who are tired of seeing our jobs shipped overseas or handed out like candy to people who are here illegally in this country.

No cutie, you represent the voice of an ICE agent (that is your job title, correct?) Besides that, how is your job endangered by illegal immigration? Isn't it more so relied on it?

As for Lutz... I'm gonna guess he's a college student.


Most nations do not drive on the same side of the street as Americans do. They also have different laws as well concerning speed limits, right of way and things of that nature.

More reason they need to learn our laws. Thank you Cutie, for agreeing with me.



Then STFU.

... ... take a chill pill sister.


They generally don't pay fees. That's why they're a burden on the economy.

Doesn't mean they don't at all. I bet the seven states who've established this policy can confirm it too.


Eh? What's this, then?

Hmm... well you've wasted ten minutes of my time, and I still have yet to find where I mentioned illegal aliens buying car insurance. My browser must be broken or something.


I think they all have malicious intentions. They're not here to contribute to America. They're here to milk it for all its worth and then go back home with their money in tow.

Ah, so you're saying they've never tried staying in the country? They always eventually go back to their native country, even if they brought they're family with them? And is this true for illegal aliens crossing into our country outside of the mexican border?



Except as pointed out over and over again and not getting into your thick head, giving out drivers lisence wont lower accidents, infact it may increase them as there would be more cars on the road.

Your argument is just one opinion over another. And since you've never mentioned about living in a state that enacts this policy, I find it hard taking your's seriously over the policy maker's.



I think a wall or heavy border patrol is what is needed to fix the vast majority of problems caused by Illegal Immigration. And that public safety concerns should be the last thing on our minds.

For the record, this policy has never been suggested as any sort of alternative, or solution to illegal immigration and should never be interpreted as one. It is like any other policy, where it tries hinder or solve a specific problem in society. And just as any other policy, as long as it is cost efficient, and has showed some rate of success, there's no harm in passing it.

So far there are about 2 valid arguments made against the policy (add more if you wish):

~ the DL policy will entice more illegal aliens to come over (which, if we're honest to ourselves, isn't much of an incentive at all, and probably doesn't exist any deciding factor in any illegal immigrant's mind.)

~ The DL policy endangers american security, by allowing illegal aliens the chance to gain ID. However as already stated, the restrictions are getting tighter and Utah's policy is a perfect counter to this issue.


Becuase Utah is such a large example of a border state with a heavy population of illegals. Thats like saying we should enact Mormon laws in New York and see what happens.

Well... it's not that very far from the mexican border.


The best way to protect the public is to kick them out.

As already stated the policy isn't an alternative to regular standards. Please stop treating it as one.


Show me where I said all Illegals have evil intentions? I believe some do, but not all.


Except their motives are clear, a majority come over looking for cheap illegal jobs, they suck up tax payer money. The others come over here for crime and drugs.

You said it quite clearly.


And see this goes to show you have nieve you are. Living in a state where I drive by many Illegals just on my day to work, I can tell you they know the road sides and rules of the road.

More generalizing. You think because you see a couple Mexican illegals driving safely to work everyday that all or almost all of them know American road signs and laws?

BTW I hope you're taking down their license plate numbers, if you're so sure they're illegal immigrants. Remember, everyones gotta do their part in ridding those damn criminals! :p

BigLutz
1st July 2008, 6:22 PM
You're so right. That big red the "P" next to the bold red text reading "Driving Privilege" looks so darn unnotice. No security guard or law enforcement agent will ever notice it.

When you have a 6 Dollars a Hour Rent a Cop checking IDs where he has seen over a thousand a hour, do you honestly want to put your security into the possibility he notices the big red P?


Ah, I can see why Lutz brown-noses you so much.

I think she is a good debator.


At least I'm supporting my side with proof and valid explanations,

Umm no.


fed from a considerable amount of research.

Okay now that is halarious.


Cutie and you especially are half of the time using assumptions, opinions and exaggerations to build your argument.

Well no, we are providing valid examples and problems that would arise from this situation. You are just too thickheaded to realize it. Which is why you are losing.


True, Cutie and probably you too, know more about the illegal immigration process than I'll ever know,

Debate over.


but that doesn't make the two of you professionals on policy making nor experts on the outcome of this policy.

It makes us better then you based on our experience of the situation. You have already proven how illinformed you are on the subject. Why continue?


What's more is that you're arguments have been solely focused around the issues and conflicts of 5 or 4 states. This policy is concerning more than just the mexican border states, it concerns every state.

Which ones do you think it will effect the most? Do you honestly expect me to believe that say New York has as much of a problem with Illegals as Texas or any other border state that will have to deal with this?


Or do you two just assume that if its not ideal for these four, five states, then it shouldn't be administrated in any state? You're probably gonna say I'm wrong but, from what I've read, it is the truth.

Well for one your "Truth" is filled with lies, and inaccuracies based on your ignorance. Second it shouldn't be administered period, I have given you a multitude of examples why, and not just for the problems it creates in border states, but the problems it creates in ALL states.


This is pretty much irrelevant. Nevertheless, I find it oh so funny how you think we're all so ignorant up here. I think its your parents who have been telling you lies.

You people are ignorant, you guys have no idea how bad the Illegal Immigration problem is, and yet you are wanting to go out and give them more insentives with out any idea of the problems it would create. That is the very definition of ignorance.


As for Lutz... I'm gonna guess he's a college student.

And the problem with that? Kid?


Hmm... well you've wasted ten minutes of my time, and I still have yet to find where I mentioned illegal aliens buying car insurance. My browser must be broken or something.

As already explained, they will have to buy car insurance to even go out on the road. Having a Drivers Lisence does not automatically mean you can go out driving. With out Car Insurance you are still restricted to walking. Since the Car Insurance companies will not insure illegals. Then this policy is useless.


Your argument is just one opinion over another. And since you've never mentioned about living in a state that enacts this policy, I find it hard taking your's seriously over the policy maker's.

I dont have to live in a state that has inacted this policy, it is called simple logic. Not to mention I do live in a state with possibly the biggest if not one of the biggest Illegal Immigrant population in this country. I have seen first hand how these people drive. I do wonder, how does your state rank when it comes to Illegal Immigrants? How many do you have? You obviously believe that they do not know road signs, which has lead me to believe you have had almost no experience with illegals.


It is like any other policy, where it tries hinder or solve a specific problem in society.

But it is not going to solve it, it does not address the insurance problem, and since the illegals already know road signs and the rules of the road, this will do nothing to solve the overall problem of them being feared of being picked up.


And just as any other policy, as long as it is cost efficient, and has showed some rate of success, there's no harm in passing it.

Except you know, the security problems it creates, the insentives toward Illegals it creates, and a wide variety of other reasons.


~ the DL policy will entice more illegal aliens to come over (which, if we're honest to ourselves, isn't much of an incentive at all, and probably doesn't exist any deciding factor in any illegal immigrant's mind.)

Any factor, even a small one, that gives them more of a reason to come over and to help them. Is why we should throw this out.


~ The DL policy endangers american security, by allowing illegal aliens the chance to gain ID. However as already stated, the restrictions are getting tighter and Utah's policy is a perfect counter to this issue.

And as I have asked, how many Illegals are there in Utah? Utah is not the first place to go when you want to monitor a policy that helps Illegals. Come back when this policy has been used in border states with a heavy Illegal population, and THEN we will talk.


Well... it's not that very far from the mexican border.

Yeah it is, especially since Illegals by and large tend to stay in the border states.


You said it quite clearly.

I never said they were evil, I said a majority come over here looking for jobs and suck up tax payers dollars. If you want to define that as evil that is fine. But I never actually said that these people were evil. You lose again.


More generalizing. You think because you see a couple Mexican illegals driving safely to work everyday that all or almost all of them know American road signs and laws?

Seeing how I live in the largest metropolitan area in Texas, which also is a state with the biggest or one of the biggest Illegal Immigrant population. Then I would say that the experience and knowledge I have gained from watching these people drive around gives me a good idea as to how much they know.

Let me ask you this, how many Illegals have you seen driving around up there in that great Mexican Border state known as New York? How much knowledge do you have on Illegals?


BTW I hope you're taking down their license plate numbers, if you're so sure they're illegal immigrants. Remember, everyones gotta do their part in ridding those damn criminals! :p

Seeing how the Lisence Plate Numbers are not registered to the car they are driving in, not to mention the police here pretty much have a idea of who is and who isnt illegal. It is a waste of time.

Also I have seen you have AGAIN failed to take up my offer to travel to a border town. I do wonder, why is that? Afraid of seeing how brutal and criminal these towns are?

pokefiend_13
2nd July 2008, 5:15 PM
When you have a 6 Dollars a Hour Rent a Cop checking IDs where he has seen over a thousand a hour, do you honestly want to put your security into the possibility he notices the big red P?

So what. You're saying the security aren't gonna do their job?


Well no, we are providing valid examples and problems that would arise from this situation. You are just too thickheaded to realize it. Which is why you are losing.

Seriously, what makes you think I'm losing. Is it b/c its a two vs. one debate? that sounds very silly.


It makes us better then you based on our experience of the situation. You have already proven how illinformed you are on the subject. Why continue?

What you've just expressed is utter arrogance. You think because you live in a city with a high illegal immigration population, you must know almost everything there is about illegal immigration and the policies concerning illegal immigration, without any sort of previous research. That's like me saying; Because I've played Pokemon Pearl for about 2000 hours (a very high margin) I must know everything about the games mechanics. But truth be told, I'd still have no clue what EVs and IVs were if it wasn't for Serebii.net.

And don't say the two examples aren't related, b/c they surely are.


Which ones do you think it will effect the most? Do you honestly expect me to believe that say New York has as much of a problem with Illegals as Texas or any other border state that will have to deal with this?

You're forgetting one huge difference. Most illegal aliens in Texas are Mexicans. One the other hand, New York's majority of illegal aliens come from continents outside our own. I believe I've already addressed the difference between mexican illegal immigrants and other illegal immigrants a couple posts ago.


Second it shouldn't be administered period, I have given you a multitude of examples why, and not just for the problems it creates in border states, but the problems it creates in ALL states.

And I've proven your examples as only "feeble concerns".


You people are ignorant, you guys have no idea how bad the Illegal Immigration problem is, and yet you are wanting to go out and give them more insentives with out any idea of the problems it would create. That is the very definition of ignorance.

Outragously generalizing people is also a form of ignorance.


And the problem with that? Kid?

(lol, I guessed right ^^)

When you try to pass yourself off as a "member of the depleting workforce" I do actually.


I dont have to live in a state that has inacted this policy, it is called simple logic. Not to mention I do live in a state with possibly the biggest if not one of the biggest Illegal Immigrant population in this country. I have seen first hand how these people drive. I do wonder, how does your state rank when it comes to Illegal Immigrants? How many do you have? You obviously believe that they do not know road signs, which has lead me to believe you have had almost no experience with illegals.

So you don't need to live in a state that enacts this policy in order to recognize its benefits/flaws--yet in order for me to understand how bad illegal immigration is, I have to live in a border state? ... ... I smell a contradiction.


But it is not going to solve it, it does not address the insurance problem, and since the illegals already know road signs and the rules of the road, this will do nothing to solve the overall problem of them being feared of being picked up.

It's not suppose to solve the problem, it's suppose to hinder it. And that's exactly what's been happening in New Mexico.


New Mexico last year became the latest state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, and officials say the change has helped contribute to a drop in the state's uninsured rate, which in December of 2002 was 33 percent the highest in the nation and now is 17 percent. Insurance premiums also have dropped in that state and fewer people are fleeing accident scenes, according to Moran of the National Immigration Law Center. Almost 14,000 of the state's estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants have obtained licenses in the past year.

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=15696

(uhoh, how is your "great knowledge" going to counter facts?)


Except you know, the security problems it creates, the insentives toward Illegals it creates, and a wide variety of other reasons.

But as already explained, states are constantly polishing this policy, and soon they'll probably be no different to Utah's. Besides that, if an illegal alien really had dangerous intentions, they'd probably buy some really convincing fake ID.


Any factor, even a small one, that gives them more of a reason to come over and to help them. Is why we should throw this out.

Yay, b/c the prevention of possibly 2 or 10 illegal aliens is far greater than keeping the public roads more safe.


And as I have asked, how many Illegals are there in Utah? Utah is not the first place to go when you want to monitor a policy that helps Illegals. Come back when this policy has been used in border states with a heavy Illegal population, and THEN we will talk.

No fear, New Mexico will have a policy similar to Utah's soon, I'm sure.


I never said they were evil, I said a majority come over here looking for jobs and suck up tax payers dollars. If you want to define that as evil that is fine. But I never actually said that these people were evil. You lose again.

You characterize they're behavior as sinful, so yes, the word evil would be a common interpretation.

(And don't bother saying crossing the border illegally is sinful, b/c that's not true.)


Seeing how I live in the largest metropolitan area in Texas, which also is a state with the biggest or one of the biggest Illegal Immigrant population. Then I would say that the experience and knowledge I have gained from watching these people drive around gives me a good idea as to how much they know.

I bet it's taught you lot about the policy in discussion too. More than research would ever teach you. [/sarcasm]


Also I have seen you have AGAIN failed to take up my offer to travel to a border town. I do wonder, why is that? Afraid of seeing how brutal and criminal these towns are?

Lol, what does that have anything to do with the debate in hand? Stop trying deceive everyone to think you're some sort of bad***.

BigLutz
2nd July 2008, 6:39 PM
So what. You're saying the security aren't gonna do their job?

Nope and I would rather not take the chance with my safety.


Seriously, what makes you think I'm losing. Is it b/c its a two vs. one debate? that sounds very silly.

No becuase your arguments are flawed, and you are uninformed.


What you've just expressed is utter arrogance. You think because you live in a city with a high illegal immigration population, you must know almost everything there is about illegal immigration and the policies concerning illegal immigration, without any sort of previous research.

Never said I knew everything but the experience I gain from living here my entire life, gives me more knowledge on the situation than you. Just like Cutie working with ICE gives her more knowledge from experience than you.


That's like me saying; Because I've played Pokemon Pearl for about 2000 hours (a very high margin) I must know everything about the games mechanics. But truth be told, I'd still have no clue what EVs and IVs were if it wasn't for Serebii.net.

A more apt anology would be like you would know through your experience with the game, than some one who has only read about the game on the net, and never played it in real life.


You're forgetting one huge difference. Most illegal aliens in Texas are Mexicans.

Newsflash, most Illegals in the US are Mexicans.


One the other hand, New York's majority of illegal aliens come from continents outside our own. I believe I've already addressed the difference between mexican illegal immigrants and other illegal immigrants a couple posts ago.

Well for one you didn't, but as I said above the majority of illegals in the US are Mexicans, thus this program will be geared toward them, and not just the 1 or 2 that just snuck in from Japan.


And I've proven your examples as only "feeble concerns".

If you believe Security is a feeble concern, then you are a bigger idiot then I thought.


Outragously generalizing people is also a form of ignorance.

Then how about you come down here, and gain the actual experience? You have shown your inexperience already in this topic, yet you act as if you know the people this will effect. Come down here, and stop acting like a typical Liberal who governs from far away.


So you don't need to live in a state that enacts this policy in order to recognize its benefits/flaws--yet in order for me to understand how bad illegal immigration is, I have to live in a border state? ... ... I smell a contradiction.

No contridiction needed, I dont have to live in the state to realize it's benifits and flaws becuase I know and have seen the people it will effect. I have seen first hand this problem, and have a understanding of it. You have no firsthand knowledge, you do not work and drive and live around them.


It's not suppose to solve the problem, it's suppose to hinder it. And that's exactly what's been happening in New Mexico.

Again you fail to reply correctly. This plan is absolutly useless with out help from the insurance companies. Which will not insure Illigals. Not to mention your excuse that it will help them learn road signs is null and void since they already know them to keep the illusion up that they are legal.


(uhoh, how is your "great knowledge" going to counter facts?)

You do realize that helps me? That security concerns are a major concern, that these lisence are useless with out insurance, and that it is another benifit to encourage illegal behavior.


But as already explained, states are constantly polishing this policy, and soon they'll probably be no different to Utah's.

And States with how many Illegal population, we know the Utah example is null and void becuase they lack Illegals, we can talk when you get a few border states that have implimented this policy at large.


Besides that, if an illegal alien really had dangerous intentions, they'd probably buy some really convincing fake ID.

Difference is they wouldnt have state made IDs. As your own article has said, after 9/11 ID security advanced by leaps and bounds. Giving these IDs out to criminals, who some ( not all ) have dangerous intentions. Is utterly stupid.


Yay, b/c the prevention of possibly 2 or 10 illegal aliens is far greater than keeping the public roads more safe.

How about thousands? We have thousands that crawl across the border each and every day, do you want to encourage even more? As for the road safety bull, that has already been delt with over and over again how the road is safe with or with out this policy.


No fear, New Mexico will have a policy similar to Utah's soon, I'm sure.

Then lets discuss it when they, as well as places like Arizona or Texas or others also adopt it.


You characterize they're behavior as sinful, so yes, the word evil would be a common interpretation.

Comitting a Sinful act out of desperation does not make you evil, it makes the act you did evil, but these people by and large are not evil.


(And don't bother saying crossing the border illegally is sinful, b/c that's not true.)

So I take it you don't believe breaking into some one's house is sinful? Crossing the border is a sinful act, as it is breaking the law. Although it is not as sinful as the acts that follow.


I bet it's taught you lot about the policy in discussion too. More than research would ever teach you. [/sarcasm]

Seeing how I have gathered information and experience about the people this will effect. Then I can tell you the policy is flawed. Seeing how you have neither first hand information or experience on the millions of Illegals in this country, then I would say that you are lacking in knowledge when it comes to this policy.

[QUOTE=pokefiend_13;8306168]Lol, what does that have anything to do with the debate in hand? Stop trying deceive everyone to think you're some sort of bad***.

Well first I am a badass thank you very much. But the thing is that there is not going to be some sort of magical barrier that weeds out the criminals in these border towns, and just honest hard working illegals. By having a policy as radically wrong as this one, you are giving Government Issued ID Cards to anyone, including the criminals that run these towns.

Which is why I have asked for you to come down and visit these towns, witness first hand who you will be giving ID cards to. And then look at the people that live on the US side of these border towns who live in constant fear of these criminals who are just a few miles away. And then tell me this is a good policy.

In other words, get your *** off the computer, and actually see the people this will effect as Cutie and I have.

Cutiebunny
2nd July 2008, 9:45 PM
Ah, I can see why Lutz brown-noses you so much.

Envy is a deadly sin.




At least I'm supporting my side with proof and valid explanations, fed from a considerable amount of research.

Yes, two websites equals considerable amount of research. ;munchlax;


Cutie and you especially are half of the time using assumptions, opinions and exaggerations to build your argument.

I base my opinions on my personal experiences deporting these people.


True, Cutie and probably you too, know more about the illegal immigration process than I'll ever know

I second the motion that this debate is now officially over.


..but that doesn't make the two of you professionals on policy making nor experts on the outcome of this policy.

Makes us more of an expert than you on policy. So why are you still arguing with us?


What's more is that you're arguments have been solely focused around the issues and conflicts of 5 or 4 states. This policy is concerning more than just the mexican border states, it concerns every state. Or do you two just assume that if its not ideal for these four, five states, then it shouldn't be administrated in any state? You're probably gonna say I'm wrong but, from what I've read, it is the truth.

Hard line enforcement needs to be done in every state. There isn't much difference between an illegal Mexican and an illegal Laotian(you can find them in Michigan, picking mushrooms to sell to the Japanese market).



This is pretty much irrelevant. Nevertheless, I find it oh so funny how you think we're all so ignorant up here. I think its your parents who have been telling you lies.

Actually, it is relevant. You focus your argument on the sterotypical "innocent hard working" illegal which, by the way, no longer exists. I focus my argument on the real side of illegal immigration, the hookers and the criminals who place a burden on our system and have taken their toll on our social structure.

Most people who immigrate here illegally have no interest in fighting for the welfare of this country. Their nation is their homeland, not the US. You can see this with Mexicans, Filipinos, El Salvadoreans, Iranians, etc. It's generally not until the second or third generation of family born here that the notion of "homeland" becomes the US, and not their country of origin.




No cutie, you represent the voice of an ICE agent (that is your job title, correct?) Besides that, how is your job endangered by illegal immigration? Isn't it more so relied on it?

I'm not telling you what the title of my job is. And my job would become much easier if even half the people who came here or stayed here illegally would leave because of the lack of benefits they'll receive.

Besides, what the hell does this have to do with the purpose of this argument?


As for Lutz... I'm gonna guess he's a college student.

Once again, what the hell does this have to do with the purpose of this argument.




More reason they need to learn our laws. Thank you Cutie, for agreeing with me.

You were the one who made the asinine statement concerning how the driving laws are the same everywhere. And no, the illegals aren't going to learn the laws, even if you give them a pamphlet explaining it in their language(which, many states do because the 'poor illegals' can't bother learning English even though all the signs are written in English!). Once a criminal, always a criminal.




... ... take a chill pill sister.

Nah, it's more fun to see you squirm like a worm.




Doesn't mean they don't at all. I bet the seven states who've established this policy can confirm it too.

I dunno, since you've done 'considerable research' on this topic, maybe you can tell me.




Hmm... well you've wasted ten minutes of my time, and I still have yet to find where I mentioned illegal aliens buying car insurance. My browser must be broken or something.

You brought it up in a debate for the purpose of making a point about illegals. You put 2 and 2 together.




Ah, so you're saying they've never tried staying in the country? They always eventually go back to their native country, even if they brought they're family with them? And is this true for illegal aliens crossing into our country outside of the mexican border?

The majority go back once they're ready to retire. They retire there because the cost of living is less than than here. If they want to see their families, they drive or take a flight over here.



Your argument is just one opinion over another. And since you've never mentioned about living in a state that enacts this policy, I find it hard taking your's seriously over the policy maker's.

You already stated that both Lutz and I have more expierence than you on this topic, yet now you're dismissing my opinion. Which is it?




For the record, this policy has never been suggested as any sort of alternative, or solution to illegal immigration and should never be interpreted as one. It is like any other policy, where it tries hinder or solve a specific problem in society. And just as any other policy, as long as it is cost efficient, and has showed some rate of success, there's no harm in passing it.

I still don't see how not issuing illegals a driver's license is solving a problem that the legal society faces. If anything, it creates a problem.

I'll just shout 9/11 and get supporters. Ignorant voters respond best to fearful buzzwords.


So far there are about 2 valid arguments made against the policy (add more if you wish):

~ the DL policy will entice more illegal aliens to come over (which, if we're honest to ourselves, isn't much of an incentive at all, and probably doesn't exist any deciding factor in any illegal immigrant's mind.)

~ The DL policy endangers american security, by allowing illegal aliens the chance to gain ID. However as already stated, the restrictions are getting tighter and Utah's policy is a perfect counter to this issue. However, no one at the DMV has had any training in counterfeit documentation and would be unable to detect a bad document even if it were to smack them in their face. Hence Utah's policy is shody, at best.

~ Now that you've given them DLs, the illegals will demand that the signs be written in their languages. This means you'll now have to have signs written in Spanish, Chinese, and every other language under the sun because these people can't bother to learn English. That will cost the taxpayer millions, if not billions, of dollars to change these signs to accomidate them.




BTW I hope you're taking down their license plate numbers, if you're so sure they're illegal immigrants. Remember, everyones gotta do their part in ridding those damn criminals! :p


I do my part every day. What's your excuse?

plasticeye87
8th July 2008, 1:08 AM
I've heard that some of them but not all are issued these (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html#what) its funny that the US demands their money just like we have to pay and yet they don't get all the little things we take for granted. How's that for a double standard.

Carlisle
8th July 2008, 1:15 AM
All I have to say is...

Why should America give filthy criminals that don't belong here OUR documentation and permits?

Mr. Mudkip
8th July 2008, 5:06 AM
no, absolutely not. Get into my country legally, then we'll talk.

Chatttownlegend
12th July 2008, 5:03 PM
no, absolutely not. Get into my country legally, then we'll talk.
There is a certain amount of immigrants that can come into the country most of which are doctors and other high paid professions. So just because they have the word illegal in their names doesn't mean they are bad people or that they shouldn't be here. Plus the United States is too reliant on Illegal Immigrants to do anything besides keep them in the country. There are 12 Million Immigrants in America, some estimates even say there could be as many as 20 million. But if we were to track down every single illegal immigrant deport them and separate their families, which would cost 94 billion dollars according to CNN, then there would be millions of missing jobs. Which would not be filled completely by the 7.7 million unemployed Americans even if they were forced to work. Illegal Immigrants even end up helping the economy in other ways. They actually help consumers too. When an illegal immigrant spends money or even ships it, that money comes back into our wallets. Companies like Western Union will get money even if they ship it. And Whatever the Immigrant buys will help the company who sells or makes the product. This will help the company's profits allowing them to expand, create more jobs, and so forth. Which if anybody denies that 12 million immigrants buying American goods doesn't help the economy then they are insane. Though not all of them pay taxes, many pay sales taxes and according to USA today illegal immigrants even pay taxes with fake social security numbers that add up to 50 Billion dollars. To spend billions of dollars to deport people that end up producing money for America, would be insane and inhumane.

BigLutz
12th July 2008, 6:17 PM
There is a certain amount of immigrants that can come into the country most of which are doctors and other high paid professions. So just because they have the word illegal in their names doesn't mean they are bad people or that they shouldn't be here.

Just becuase they are a doctor or other high paid professional does not mean they are not guilty of breaking the law, nor does it mean they should get a free pass to stay here.


Plus the United States is too reliant on Illegal Immigrants to do anything besides keep them in the country. There are 12 Million Immigrants in America, some estimates even say there could be as many as 20 million. But if we were to track down every single illegal immigrant deport them and separate their families, which would cost 94 billion dollars according to CNN,

Seeing how we lose billions each year becuase of Illegals already, having to pay for 94 Billion over the next few years to kick all of them up, would be more than worth it.


then there would be millions of missing jobs. Which would not be filled completely by the 7.7 million unemployed Americans even if they were forced to work.

We're not going to flip a switch and get them all out at that moment, it will be a gradual attrition through out the next few years. During which those jobs will be filled.


Illegal Immigrants even end up helping the economy in other ways. They actually help consumers too. When an illegal immigrant spends money or even ships it, that money comes back into our wallets.

Seeing how much they actually cost the American tax payer each year, the percentage of money they actually put back into the market place is very small compared to their actual cost.


Companies like Western Union will get money even if they ship it.

Which brings back another problem, that we are losing billions each year by Illegals shipping the money to Mexico and not putting it back into the economy.



Which if anybody denies that 12 million immigrants buying American goods doesn't help the economy then they are insane.

It helps, but the amount of money they take out through services, and the amount of money they take out through sending money to Mexico. Does more damage.


Though not all of them pay taxes, many pay sales taxes and according to USA today illegal immigrants even pay taxes with fake social security numbers that add up to 50 Billion dollars.

Problem is the vast majority of them do not pay taxes, and the vast majority of them do take tax money out of the economy by using up services like schools and hospitals. As for them putting 50 billion dollars back in, I demand proof on that. Becuase according to the center of Immigration studies.

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html


To spend billions of dollars to deport people that end up producing money for America, would be insane and inhumane.

Just becuase they end up putting money in does not mean they are still disproportinatly taking money out. Nor does it absolve them of the crime they comitted. Drug Dealers put money back into the economy, should we let them go? Robbers put money back into the economy, should we let them go? No. In the end they broke the law, just like Illegals and deserve to be punished.

Chatttownlegend
13th July 2008, 2:28 AM
Just becuase they are a doctor or other high paid professional does not mean they are not guilty of breaking the law, nor does it mean they should get a free pass to stay here.


All that means is that there is no other way for them to get in. And considering the fact that they help us is enough reason to let them in the country.


Seeing how we lose billions each year becuase of Illegals already, having to pay for 94 Billion over the next few years to kick all of them up, would be more than worth it.

Illegal Immigrants contribute $428 billion dollars to the economy. And that is a statistic that adds in if they were 30% inefficient. Plus 94 billion dollars is more than the department of homeland security's budget. Also forcefully removing immigrants or any other way is just inhumane and treating them like animals


We're not going to flip a switch and get them all out at that moment, it will be a gradual attrition through out the next few years. During which those jobs will be filled.

Even if it was a slow process 12 million people don't come out of nowhere. And 12 million American people won't decide to fill in the 50% of the textile industry that was completely ruined or the agriculture industry which would also be in a bad position. Who else would you choose to do it?


Seeing how much they actually cost the American tax payer each year, the percentage of money they actually put back into the market place is very small compared to their actual cost.
Do you even know how much they cost the tax payer


Which brings back another problem, that we are losing billions each year by Illegals shipping the money to Mexico and not putting it back into the economy.

No its the exact same process of spending money on anything else. When you get a paycheck you spend it. No matter what you spend it on or where you send it, as long as you are spending in America, or on American products, or if you spend it to buy stocks, get your car repaired, or even send money in America to another place. No matter what it will help a business. The paycheck that they earn will go back into the economy, Western Union and other companies make money when people use their product it goes back into the economy. So in other words the money isn't being stolen its going to buy an American product help a company no matter what.


It helps, but the amount of money they take out through services, and the amount of money they take out through sending money to Mexico. Does more damage.

again $428 billion dollars is put in by these services. And do you know how much that costs us.


Problem is the vast majority of them do not pay taxes, and the vast majority of them do take tax money out of the economy by using up services like schools and hospitals. As for them putting 50 billion dollars back in, I demand proof on that. Becuase according to the center of Immigration studies.

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


There's your proof plus more stuff.

Though many don't pay taxes it shows the willingness for them to contribute when not even required. Plus thats no reason to deport somebody. As long as they are willing and do contribute the many that don't pay taxes are helping. Plus the fiscal debt stuff you provided is outdated not to mention that the debt in that study was only based on stuff they used not what they contributed back.


Just becuase they end up putting money in does not mean they are still disproportinatly taking money out. Nor does it absolve them of the crime they comitted. Drug Dealers put money back into the economy, should we let them go? Robbers put money back into the economy, should we let them go? No. In the end they broke the law, just like Illegals and deserve to be punished.

They do put money into the economy and more than they take you stated they take money but all you provided to prove it was a one year finding that was done poorly and by an anti immigration study, in 2002. That one year does not prove that in 2008 and every other year illegal immigrants have hurt us. And a drug dealer really does hurt the economy considering drugs don't help anybody. Some laws are also wrong. That means that yes we can let them go because they didn't do anything wrong. If the government made a law that said people who use the internet should be put in jail would it be right to arrest the people or should they change the law. And seperating legal children from their parents is not a humane punishment for crossing a border. And drug dealing and bank robbing hurts the economy and/or people, Immigration doesn't.

Carlisle
13th July 2008, 2:34 AM
Do you even LIVE in a border state? Do you actually think illegals are actually contributing? Why don't you go to a border town and see the crime and havoc and the gangs they bring along.

BigLutz
13th July 2008, 4:59 AM
All that means is that there is no other way for them to get in. And considering the fact that they help us is enough reason to let them in the country.

We have a myrid of others that are also just as valuable to society that are waiting patiently in their country of origin. Do they not deserve to be in this country becuase they are not Mexican?


Illegal Immigrants contribute $428 billion dollars to the economy. And that is a statistic that adds in if they were 30% inefficient. Plus 94 billion dollars is more than the department of homeland security's budget. Also forcefully removing immigrants or any other way is just inhumane and treating them like animals

Mind giving me actual numbers on that? And besides as previously said, other criminals contribute money to society, drug dealers take their money and contribute it to society, that doesn't make them any less guilty. Second it isn't as if they will spend all 94 Billion in one year. And third they are criminals they should be removed like criminals.


Even if it was a slow process 12 million people don't come out of nowhere. And 12 million American people won't decide to fill in the 50% of the textile industry that was completely ruined or the agriculture industry which would also be in a bad position. Who else would you choose to do it?

You know what you remind me of? The Racists that populated the South before the Civil War. "We can't release the slaves, no one will come to fill the position." Funny thing is with situation like these and others, people end up filling them, it also spurs innovation.


Do you even know how much they cost the tax payer

Read the numbers below.


No its the exact same process of spending money on anything else. When you get a paycheck you spend it. No matter what you spend it on or where you send it, as long as you are spending in America, or on American products, or if you spend it to buy stocks, get your car repaired, or even send money in America to another place. No matter what it will help a business. The paycheck that they earn will go back into the economy, Western Union and other companies make money when people use their product it goes back into the economy. So in other words the money isn't being stolen its going to buy an American product help a company no matter what.

A small percentage of the money given to Western Union goes back into the economy, the vast majority of it goes straight to Mexico. Meaning it isn't being spent in America, it isn't being spent on American products, it isn't being spent to buy stocks, or getting your car repaired, or anything else.


again $428 billion dollars is put in by these services. And do you know how much that costs us.

Proof that we get 428 Billion, and yes I have provided you the percentage.



There's your proof plus more stuff.

I never doubt that a few pay taxes, the vast majority of them does not.


Though many don't pay taxes it shows the willingness for them to contribute when not even required. Plus thats no reason to deport somebody. As long as they are willing and do contribute the many that don't pay taxes are helping. Plus the fiscal debt stuff you provided is outdated not to mention that the debt in that study was only based on stuff they used not what they contributed back.

The numbers provided, while 6 years out of date, does show that there is a ever growing gap between the services rendered, and the money that they put into the government. Yes some of them pay taxes, do most of them do? No. Do most of them use Government services that cost taxes? Yes. Should we deport them becuase they act nice and pay taxes evern though they broke the law. Yes.


They do put money into the economy and more than they take you stated they take money but all you provided to prove it was a one year finding that was done poorly and by an anti immigration study, in 2002.

Going to provide proof it was done poorly or that it was a anti immigration study?


That one year does not prove that in 2008 and every other year illegal immigrants have hurt us.

So if I provided say something like...

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000506.html

This.

From 2004, which shows that California is being cost 9 Billion each year by Illegals. Then we have a pattern filled in of Illegals costing more than they put in.



And a drug dealer really does hurt the economy considering drugs don't help anybody.

I have a 9 Billion Dollar figure that shows that these people hurt the economy too.


Some laws are also wrong.

Having a soverign border is wrong?


That means that yes we can let them go because they didn't do anything wrong.

They broke the law, agree with it, disagree with it, you follow the law, and you pay the concequences.


If the government made a law that said people who use the internet should be put in jail would it be right to arrest the people or should they change the law.

If you are breaking the law then yes, but mind you, you are comparing a absurd law, with border security. How pathetic of you.


And seperating legal children from their parents is not a humane punishment for crossing a border.

The children should and will most likely head home with their parents. Legal or not, their parents broke the law, and using their children as a shield is inhumane and disgusting. And really by your logic, we shouldn't punish any one that breaks the law as long as they have children.


And drug dealing and bank robbing hurts the economy and/or people, Immigration doesn't.

I have figures that have proven you wrong. Infact I have provided two sources that have proven you wrong. Illegal Immigration HURTS THE ECONOMY.

Cutiebunny
13th July 2008, 6:31 AM
Hmm...either you and/or your parents are illegal, aren't you? How quaint.



All that means is that there is no other way for them to get in. And considering the fact that they help us is enough reason to let them in the country.

There are certain classifications for doctors/nurses to come to the United States as new immigrants. All they have to do is talk to the US embassy and make sure that they have the appropriate certifications to qualify. Otherwise, if they haven't proven that they're up to US standards, then those are the exact doctors/nurses that you don't want working on you and that are definetely doing more harm than good.




Illegal Immigrants contribute $428 billion dollars to the economy. And that is a statistic that adds in if they were 30% inefficient. Plus 94 billion dollars is more than the department of homeland security's budget.

Remind me how much illegal immigrants send home in remittance to other countries? I recall there was an article in National Geographic magazine several months ago showing the countries that receive the most money from the US from remittances.

Also, look at the cost that they put on our systems. An average hospital stay for pregnancy without issurance is roughly $10,000. Multiply that by the amount of preganant illegal women in the US and you get an idea of their drain on the system.

What about the criminal illegal aliens that are currently in our jails? It takes about $50,000 per year to take care of one criminal. Multiply that by the amount of illegal immigrants in jail and perhaps you'll get a better idea.

94 billion doesn't even cover half the amount of damage their do to the system.


Also forcefully removing immigrants or any other way is just inhumane and treating them like animals

These people should have thought about that before they came here. You should add other first world nations such as Japan, Israel, etc. to your list because they do the same thing.



Even if it was a slow process 12 million people don't come out of nowhere. And 12 million American people won't decide to fill in the 50% of the textile industry that was completely ruined or the agriculture industry which would also be in a bad position. Who else would you choose to do it?

If you pay them, they will come.

I hate to tell you this, but once an illegal agricultural worker gets their green card, they don't continue to pick lettuce in the hot sun for $.50/hour. They start taking the jobs you want - They become the secreatary, the office worker, etc. And the best part is, the taxpayers get to pay for their ESL education.



Do you even know how much they cost the tax payer

Do you? I gave you some statistics already. So did Lutz.




No its the exact same process of spending money on anything else. When you get a paycheck you spend it. No matter what you spend it on or where you send it, as long as you are spending in America, or on American products, or if you spend it to buy stocks, get your car repaired, or even send money in America to another place. No matter what it will help a business. The paycheck that they earn will go back into the economy, Western Union and other companies make money when people use their product it goes back into the economy. So in other words the money isn't being stolen its going to buy an American product help a company no matter what.

Western Union charges, what...$10 per moneysend? And most of these people aren't sending $10 home...they're sending $500 per month back to their countries. So, comparatively, $510 into our economy verses $10. I wonder which is better...

Many countries, such as Mexico, depend on remittances from the US in order to fuel their economy. I believe remittances from Mexicans to Mexico rank as third biggest source of income that the Mexican government receives.


again $428 billion dollars is put in by these services. And do you know how much that costs us.

Subtract the drain they're putting on their economy and tell me if there is a positive remainder.





Though many don't pay taxes it shows the willingness for them to contribute when not even required. Plus thats no reason to deport somebody.

(looks at the INA) Yes, it is.


As long as they are willing and do contribute the many that don't pay taxes are helping. Plus the fiscal debt stuff you provided is outdated not to mention that the debt in that study was only based on stuff they used not what they contributed back.

Remind me again as to the real cost they put on our economy in terms of the services that they take.




They do put money into the economy and more than they take you stated they take money but all you provided to prove it was a one year finding that was done poorly and by an anti immigration study, in 2002. That one year does not prove that in 2008 and every other year illegal immigrants have hurt us.

So, in 2002 illegals hurt us, but not in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008?

LMAO!



And a drug dealer really does hurt the economy considering drugs don't help anybody.

Using your logic, drug dealers are producing products which only the losers of this world take. By the law of natural selection, drug dealers are doing us a favor.


Some laws are also wrong.

Hmmm...didn't that Lugia guy say the same thing and he was an illegal too?!

Don't come into my country illegally and demand that the laws be changed to fit your circumstances.


That means that yes we can let them go because they didn't do anything wrong.

Illegal entry to the United States is considered a misdeamnor. So is petty theft.

Really, I can't see the difference...can you?


If the government made a law that said people who use the internet should be put in jail would it be right to arrest the people or should they change the law.

If I chose to live in a country that mandated that, then I would abide by their rules.


And seperating legal children from their parents is not a humane punishment for crossing a border.

You mentioned this earlier in the same post. I still have the same response.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


And drug dealing and bank robbing hurts the economy and/or people, Immigration doesn't.

So sayeth the illegal.

Chatttownlegend
13th July 2008, 7:41 PM
I'm going to single-handedly address every argument against illegals: they're five percent of our workforce (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5250150). You can't simply deport 12 million illegals, five percent of our workforce, and somehow hope our already-lagging economy will compensate for the loss. I mean, honestly, people. You criticize me for being idealistic, yet you think somehow the market will magically compensate for the loss. The government deporting each and every one of these illegals would do nothing but harm the economy through the immense bureaucratic costs that would be incurred, plus finding every one of them, transporting them and so forth. Oh and I'm not an illegal, I pay $17,000 to go to high school every year, and my father manages one of the America's top 100 golf clubs, I'm pretty sure I'm not illegal. If any of you people think that all pro immigration people are illegal than you are retarded. And once again I got the 428 billion dollars from USA today. Drug dealers don't contribute to the GDP illegal immigrants do actual work. There's a difference. Lockean theory would tell us that a wrong law should not be followed. You have a right to resist in other words. Thats what America was founded on. And just because something is illegal doesn't mean it can't be changed. And all those statistics you wanted me to remind you about don't add up to 428 billion dollars I doubt they even add up to 94 billion dollars. You can't even provide me with most of these statistics. Oh and me sounding like a racist in the south, they come here voluntarily they want to be here, they don't drink their own piss for a week in the desert so they can be enslaved. They have a better life here than in Mexico. And the sources you give still don't add up. they send 24 billion dollars home, but tell me what is more the 428 billion or even the 94 billion or 24 billion dollars. Add 9 billion dollars add the services and you still don't get as much money. You don't even know how much they take in services. The crime rate for illegals is lower than the crime rate for native people, should we deport each other. "The incarceration rate of U.S.- born men 18 to 39 years old in 2000 was 3.5 percent — five times higher than the incarceration rate of their immigrant counterparts, the study found." -U.S. Census Bureau. So I do know you guys have no clue what you are saying. You haven't told me how much they cost in services, FOR AMERICA AS A WHOLE(if you know) and don't know simple economics. I'm arguing the simplest things and you guys are resorting to calling me illegal. Substantiate your claims especially the amount of money they cost us, and the green card claim. Do you even know what a green card is. Have you even worked. Green Card users pay taxes. They don't use social security and other programs the only thing they cost us is in hospitals and in schools. But that still isn't too much. And you aren't allowed to take your children back with you once you are deported because their children are US citizens. You have no clue what you are talking about. And I'm a US citizen who disagrees with illegal immigrants being deported that doesn't make me an illegal. Even a slow process of kicking the illegal immigrants out would be expensive and WHO WOULD REPLACE THEM!!! There aren't 12 million unemployed Americans there will be less working age people, with 78 million baby boomers retiring. Learn economics and learn how to substantiate your claims.

Carlisle
13th July 2008, 7:56 PM
I'm going to single-handedly address every argument against illegals: they're five percent of our workforce (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5250150). You can't simply deport 12 million illegals, five percent of our workforce, and somehow hope our already-lagging economy will compensate for the loss. I mean, honestly, people. You criticize me for being idealistic, yet you think somehow the market will magically compensate for the loss. The government deporting each and every one of these illegals would do nothing but harm the economy through the immense bureaucratic costs that would be incurred, plus finding every one of them, transporting them and so forth. Oh and I'm not an illegal, I pay $17,000 to go to high school every year, and my father manages

one of the America's top 100 golf clubs, I'm pretty sure I'm not illegal. If any of you people think that all pro immigration people are illegal than you are retarded.
Sweetie, we're pro LEGAL immigration. Not filthy criminals coming in illegally. Honestly, GO TO A FREAKING BORDER TOWN. See how much crime and despair they bring along.
And once again I got the 428 billion dollars from USA today. Drug dealers don't contribute to the GDP illegal immigrants do actual work. There's a difference. Lockean theory would tell us that a wrong law should not be followed. You have a right to resist in other words. Thats what America was founded on. And just because something is illegal doesn't mean it can't be changed. And all those statistics you wanted me to remind you about don't add up to 428 billion dollars I doubt they even add up to 94 billion dollars. You can't even provide me with most of these statistics
I believe they gave them to you? Remember how Cutie showed how illegals drain California's health care system?
Oh and me sounding like a racist in the south, they come here voluntarily they want to be here, they don't drink their own piss for a week in the desert so they can be enslaved.
WHAT are you BABBLING about? The Africans didn't drink pee, nor they did they want to come here voluntarily.
They have a better life here than in Mexico. And the sources you give still don't add up. they send 24 billion dollars home, but tell me what is more the 428 billion or even the 94 billion or 24 billion dollars. Add 9 billion dollars add the services and you still don't get as much money. You don't even know how much they take in services. The crime rate for illegals is lower than the crime rate for native people, should we deport each other. "The incarceration rate of U.S.- born men 18 to 39 years old in 2000 was 3.5 percent — five times higher than the incarceration rate of their immigrant counterparts, the study found."
Yeah, they sure have a better life. They're CRIMINALS. They come here JUST to have kids, so they can have money checks for their children. Please, we need to elimante Jus Soil.-

. You have no clue what you are talking about. And I'm a US citizen who disagrees with illegal immigrants being deported that doesn't make me an illegal. Even a slow process of kicking the illegal immigrants out would be expensive and WHO WOULD REPLACE THEM!!! There aren't 12 million unemployed Americans there will be less working age people, with 78 million baby boomers retiring. Learn economics and learn how to substantiate your claims.
Plenty of desperate Americans would take their place. And going through alternative energy jobs, that would even give MORE jobs. Seriously, GO TO A BORDER TOWN. Not your nice little happy little apartment in NYC. Seriously, are you just some rich kid who has never seen problems? GO. TO. A. BORDER. TOWN. SEE. THE. HAVOC. THEY. CAUSE. They bring DRUGS, they bring VIOLENCE, they bring GANGS, and any one who lives down in the deep Southern parts of Texas would gladly want to have these CRIMINALS taken OUT.

BigLutz
13th July 2008, 8:04 PM
I'm going to single-handedly address every argument against illegals: they're five percent of our workforce (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5250150). You can't simply deport 12 million illegals, five percent of our workforce, and somehow hope our already-lagging economy will compensate for the loss.

Again you sound just like a Slave owner in the south before the Civil War. "You can't free the slaves, they make up so much for the workforce." If we are going to let people break the law, just becuase they are part of the work force, then we have to start questioning the existance of all of our laws.


I mean, honestly, people. You criticize me for being idealistic, yet you think somehow the market will magically compensate for the loss.

The market place has before.


The government deporting each and every one of these illegals would do nothing but harm the economy through the immense bureaucratic costs that would be incurred, plus finding every one of them, transporting them and so forth.

And in turn the economy would be repaid by not having to shell out money through taxes each day to the Illegals. Not to mention how many hospitals and schools would be saved.


And once again I got the 428 billion dollars from USA today.

And USA today got it from a Pro Illegal Economist who was making a guess. The 428 Billion is not a fact, but a wild guess by a biased man.


Drug dealers don't contribute to the GDP illegal immigrants do actual work.

The money drug dealers gets goes back into the economy. You're basically saying that the degree of the crime should be lessoned becuase of the economy. Shouldn't the crime be treated as a crime and the GDP or anything else not even be factored in? What happened to Justice being blind?


There's a difference. Lockean theory would tell us that a wrong law should not be followed.

Followed or not, it is not your decision to decide which law is right and which law is wrong. Each nation must have borders for their own soverignty. To say any differently is absurd and utterly stupid.


You have a right to resist in other words. Thats what America was founded on. And just because something is illegal doesn't mean it can't be changed.

We're not going to change our borders, beliving any differently just shows how blind you are.


Oh and me sounding like a racist in the south, they come here voluntarily they want to be here,

Doesn't mean you are not following the South's own Economic Policy.


they send 24 billion dollars home, but tell me what is more the 428 billion or even the 94 billion or 24 billion dollars.

Again you treat the 428 Billion as a fact when it is not.


You don't even know how much they take in services.

In California alone, the cost for them per year is 9 Billion Dollars, as shown back in 2005. Expand that to the rest of the border states and that number rises.


The crime rate for illegals is lower than the crime rate for native people,

Go down to a Southern Border town, and tell me if you think the crime rate is lower.


should we deport each other.

No becuase the people here, like it or not, are not illegal. Mind you just by being here they are breaking the law, so in essence all of them have a 100% Crime Rate.


So I do know you guys have no clue what you are saying.

You do realize I live on a border state, and Cutie works for ICE. So unless you live on a border state, or work for ICE. I will have to say it is you who is wrong.


You haven't told me how much they cost in services, FOR AMERICA AS A WHOLE(if you know) and don't know simple economics.

Funny you are the one who is using a guess as economic proof, and yet saying we do not know simple economics.


They don't use social security and other programs the only thing they cost us is in hospitals and in schools.

You will be shocked to see how many hospitals and schools are closing down in border towns and in border states, becuase of Illegals.


But that still isn't too much.

9 Billion Dollars in California alone says differently.


And you aren't allowed to take your children back with you once you are deported because their children are US citizens.

That is something for Cutie to answer.


You have no clue what you are talking about.

Oh God you are about to get your *** kicked by Cutie, telling her she doesn't know what she is talking about when it is her job.


Even a slow process of kicking the illegal immigrants out would be expensive and WHO WOULD REPLACE THEM!!!

It is more expensive and destructive to keep them here. As to who would replace them, again you are sounding like a Southern Land Owner.


There aren't 12 million unemployed Americans there will be less working age people, with 78 million baby boomers retiring. Learn economics and learn how to substantiate your claims.

Well for one you are the one that hasn't substantiate your claims. You cling to one number but the number has proven to only be a guess. You say that no one will replace them, when in reality we have seen time and time again in the past, that when there is a mass opening for something, people and innovation will fill the gap. And worst of all you say we do not have any idea what we are talking about when this is Cutie's job, and I have been living on the front line of Illegal Immigration. I would say you are a utter idiot, but you have progressed even beyond that point.

Commander Blitzkrieg
13th July 2008, 8:12 PM
No. If they're too lazy to get a Green Card, I highly doubt they'd keep up with a car. (Inspections, Liscense Plates, etc.)

Chatttownlegend
13th July 2008, 8:38 PM
Again you sound just like a Slave owner in the south before the Civil War. "You can't free the slaves, they make up so much for the workforce." If we are going to let people break the law, just becuase they are part of the work force, then we have to start questioning the existance of all of our laws.

Umm, last time I checked, Mexicans weren't enslaved. This is the biggest, stupidest logical leap I have ever read in my life. You know what the difference is? I'm advocating a better life for illegals, not a life of slavery. That's the key difference. Like, are you kidding? You're the one who advocates they go back to their dump in Juarez or Mexicali, not I, good sir. Honestly. Resorting to an ad hominem like this makes you look like you're devoid of any intellectual capacity. Grow up.




The market place has before.

No, it hasn't. Immigration or an increased birthrate compensates for it, not magic. Not even Milton Friedman himself would argue this. Warrant this argument. I dare you. Prove to me that people magically appear in the workplace. Show me that workers are produced by the market. 7 million or so are unemployed right now. There are 12 million illegals. Even if you had 0% unemployment, something that is impossible given frictional and structural unemployment types, you would have 5 million jobs that needed filling. Give me 12 million people to fill the gap, and we'll talk.



And USA today got it from a Pro Illegal Economist who was making a guess. The 428 Billion is not a fact, but a wild guess by a biased man.

And your sources aren't biased? You quoted goddamn FAIRUS, who advocates population culling to improve quality of life.

And the economist got his degree from UT Austin. He's from Texas, you ***. He's been around immigrants as much as the next guy. AND he works in Tennessee. 1 hour south of where he works is Dalton, GA, where more than half the population is Hispanic. Name an economist with legitimate credentials who opposes illegal immigration. They'll be few and far between.




The money drug dealers gets goes back into the economy. You're basically saying that the degree of the crime should be lessoned becuase of the economy. Shouldn't the crime be treated as a crime and the GDP or anything else not even be factored in? What happened to Justice being blind?

And no, dealing drugs doesn't go into the economy. It's not measured in the GDP because drugs are not a final good, nor are they sold legally. And a drug dealer does illegal work; an illegal works in a textile mill or something along those lines. They aren't cutting workforce productivity like a dealer does; there is no negative impact to their presence in the workforce other than the fact they make people like you really mad. There are only positive benefits.

You're being naive and idealistic to argue that in the name of justice we should decimate our national economy. Yes, I am arguing that GDP be factored into this decision, because I've proven that without illegals, we would be non-competitive in the global marketplace.




Followed or not, it is not your decision to decide which law is right and which law is wrong. Each nation must have borders for their own soverignty. To say any differently is absurd and utterly stupid.

Nor is it yours, sir. I merely am stating my point of view, as are you. It's not your decision to massacre American economic well-being, just as it isn't mine to throw justice out the window.



We're not going to change our borders, beliving any differently just shows how blind you are.

Hahaha, what? I never even advocated moving our border. What are you talking about? Creating a strawman isn't a legitimate argument here.




Again you treat the 428 Billion as a fact when it is not.

In California alone, the cost for them per year is 9 Billion Dollars, as shown back in 2005. Expand that to the rest of the border states and that number rises.

Can you count? You're claiming the 428 billion doesn't exist because you say it doesn't. I've provided a completely legitimate source backed by a legitimate business school, and you count it out because "oh, I'm from Texas, that can't be true. I've seen it." That 9 billion is factored into the net cost mentioned in the USA today article. Billion is measured as a profit, not as a revenue to later be cut down due to other costs. Read the article, please. Don't respond until you do.


Go down to a Southern Border town, and tell me if you think the crime rate is lower.

The crime rate in Ciudad Juarez is higher due to drugs, not illegals. If anything, illegals are caught in between drug authorities and coyotes. Coyotes tied to Cali or Gulf cartels tend to hire illegals as mules to carry cocaine and black tar heroin across the border because they're going there anyway. Often, this is a condition of admission (see "The Devil's Highway, Luis Alberto Urrea") into the country using a coyote as a guide. Illegals tend to be a side effect of the drug trade rather than the other way around. Border towns are all stopovers for drug traders taking drugs into the nation from all over the world, from Colombia to Guinea Bissau. This accounts for the crime rate; not illegals. To prove that it is drugs rather than illegals, I'll point you to Dalton, GA.

45 minutes south of where I live is Dalton, GA, where more than half the population is Hispanic. This number was broken in 2006, when the crime rate in the city, both for property crimes and violent crimes was at its lowest (http://www.idcide.com/citydata/ga/dalton.htm). Dalton is not a major stopping point for dealers; rather, it is the home of an immense textile industry that relies on illegals for more than half of its workforce. There is no tie between a Latino's skin color or why they are in the country and whether or not they will rape, murder, or steal, as this example proves.




No becuase the people here, like it or not, are not illegal. Mind you just by being here they are breaking the law, so in essence all of them have a 100% Crime Rate.

Man, the fact that they are here as little effect on the crime rate. I have j-walked before. Therefore, I am technically a criminal. But my crime has no effect on the well-being of others, just as an illegal's presence has none. It doesn't hurt you, or America, for that matter.


You do realize I live on a border state, and Cutie works for ICE. So unless you live on a border state, or work for ICE. I will have to say it is you who is wrong.

So my opinion is invalid because "I haven't been there?" Am I to take your word for it because you're an expert, living in Texas, posting on a Pokemon forum? I've backed up my claims. Where is your proof?




It is more expensive and destructive to keep them here. As to who would replace them, again you are sounding like a Southern Land Owner.

Already addressed this point in its entirety with the USA Today article, which you fail to shoot down. You're pulling a logical connection out of your ***.




Well for one you are the one that hasn't substantiate your claims. You cling to one number but the number has proven to only be a guess. You say that no one will replace them, when in reality we have seen time and time again in the past, that when there is a mass opening for something, people and innovation will fill the gap. And worst of all you say we do not have any idea what we are talking about when this is Cutie's job, and I have been living on the front line of Illegal Immigration. I would say you are a utter idiot, but you have progressed even beyond that point.

So I use statistics, which you claim are "guesses", and you provide nothing other than your claimed experience? Illegals ARE filling the opportunity gap you're talking about, sir. Honestly. You think they'd be coming here if there wasn't an opening? You say legal immigrants will fill this gap, yet at the same time we have a Congress enforcing stricter immigration controls on legal immigrants, reducing annual student quotas, and cutting green card issuances, work visas, and other means of legal immigration. I'd agree with you entirely if you were to advocate some way of reducing illegal immigration other than kicking them out. As for that, I'd argue either for enforcing laws we already have (such as holding companies accountable for their wages) or making it easier (or cheaper) to come here legally.

BigLutz
13th July 2008, 9:23 PM
Umm, last time I checked, Mexicans weren't enslaved. This is the biggest, stupidest logical leap I have ever read in my life.

It doesn't matter if they are slaves or not, both were used as Economic Crutches, and when people demanded to take them away, people rebelled at the thought, thinking we couldn't survive with out our crutches.


You know what the difference is? I'm advocating a better life for illegals, not a life of slavery. That's the key difference.

Just like slavery, you are still advocating we keep our economic crutch.


Like, are you kidding? You're the one who advocates they go back to their dump in Juarez or Mexicali, not I, good sir. Honestly. Resorting to an ad hominem like this makes you look like you're devoid of any intellectual capacity. Grow up.

Excuse me but you are the one that uses the tired old arguments of slave holders. "We cannot lose them, our economy cannot survive." If anything I would say you need to grow up and realize that our economy can survive with out Illegals.


No, it hasn't.

So our economy recovering after losing the major source of labor known as slavery never happened?


Immigration or an increased birthrate compensates for it, not magic. Not even Milton Friedman himself would argue this. Warrant this argument. I dare you. Prove to me that people magically appear in the workplace. Show me that workers are produced by the market. 7 million or so are unemployed right now. There are 12 million illegals. Even if you had 0% unemployment, something that is impossible given frictional and structural unemployment types, you would have 5 million jobs that needed filling. Give me 12 million people to fill the gap, and we'll talk.

For one as I said these 12 million will not disappear over night, it will be a slow transition but a transition none the less. Second it will spur innovation, just as the end of Slavery did, we will find new ways and cheaper ways to fill the areas illegals once held. You are so blind to believe that we won't be able to fill these spots, either by working jobs, or innovation, as the years progressed. Remember we got through quite well in the 1940s and 1950s when we did not have Illegals around to pick fruits or to mow our yards.


And your sources aren't biased? You quoted goddamn FAIRUS, who advocates population culling to improve quality of life.

I have given you statistics, you have given me a guess.


And the economist got his degree from UT Austin. He's from Texas, you ***.

Touche, that doesn't make it any less of a guess.


He's been around immigrants as much as the next guy. AND he works in Tennessee. 1 hour south of where he works is Dalton, GA, where more than half the population is Hispanic. Name an economist with legitimate credentials who opposes illegal immigration. They'll be few and far between.

Doesn't matter, a guess is still a guess, next time come back with facts or get out.


And no, dealing drugs doesn't go into the economy.

The drug dealers get their money, which they then spend back into the economy.



You're being naive and idealistic to argue that in the name of justice we should decimate our national economy.

"You're being naive and idealistic to argue that in the name of Black Rights we should decimate our national economy" Chatttownlegend Circa 1835.


Yes, I am arguing that GDP be factored into this decision, because I've proven that without illegals, we would be non-competitive in the global marketplace.

First no you havn't, you are making a guess, just as you made your arguement before on a guess. You throw history and the past aside and act as if we will be blind children not knowing what to do with out Illegals.

And laws should never be changed or altered to help those just becuase they help the country. If so then a company CEO would never be investigated or put in jail.


Nor is it yours, sir. I merely am stating my point of view, as are you. It's not your decision to massacre American economic well-being, just as it isn't mine to throw justice out the window.

Justice always, ALWAYS prevails over economic well being. We should never be held hostage and allow the guilty go free, just becuase of economic well being. To do so makes laws, and in this case our borders, as useless as the paper they are written on.



Hahaha, what? I never even advocated moving our border. What are you talking about? Creating a strawman isn't a legitimate argument here.

Actually yes you are, these people are guilty becuase they crossed our borders illegally. By not making them pay for their crimes, we are saying that our country has no borders, that people may freely come and go as they wish.


Can you count? You're claiming the 428 billion doesn't exist because you say it doesn't.

I am saying the number is only a guess, that you do not know the true number.


I've provided a completely legitimate source backed by a legitimate business school,

You provided a guess, do not try to make it a fact.



The crime rate in Ciudad Juarez is higher due to drugs, not illegals.

The reasons the gangs are there in the first place is to provide a service to ship illegals over.


If anything, illegals are caught in between drug authorities and coyotes. Coyotes tied to Cali or Gulf cartels tend to hire illegals as mules to carry cocaine and black tar heroin across the border because they're going there anyway. Often, this is a condition of admission (see "The Devil's Highway, Luis Alberto Urrea") into the country using a coyote as a guide. Illegals tend to be a side effect of the drug trade rather than the other way around. Border towns are all stopovers for drug traders taking drugs into the nation from all over the world, from Colombia to Guinea Bissau. This accounts for the crime rate; not illegals. To prove that it is drugs rather than illegals, I'll point you to Dalton, GA.

Then the simple answer is that we stop the illegals, and that would take away their main mode of transportation for drugs. Simple as that.



Man, the fact that they are here as little effect on the crime rate. I have j-walked before. Therefore, I am technically a criminal. But my crime has no effect on the well-being of others, just as an illegal's presence has none. It doesn't hurt you, or America, for that matter.

Actually a illegal presence does hurt me, as they tend to take up jobs, drive down wages, use up schools, and use hospitals. The last two is particuarly important. Seeing how it is what has closed down so many hospitals in California * 85/84 * in the past few years, as well as costing cities like San Diago over 100 Million each year.

http://www.commonvoice.com/article.asp?colid=2177

I would suggest you go to San Diago, or a variety of hospitals in California that are going out of buisness becuase of Illegals, and blindly say "Oh don't worry Illegals don't hurt you"

And if you want to talk crime rate, how about some more statistics from Los Angelas.

95%, that is the percentage of Outstanding Warrents for Homicide are for Illegal Aliens
66% that is the percentage of Fugitive Felony Warrents are for Illegal Aliens
The 18th Street Gang has 20,000 members, around 60 to 80 percent are Illegal Aliens
60% that is the percentage of the Lil Cyros Street Gang that is made up of Illegals in 2002, that percentage is higher now.

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf


So my opinion is invalid because "I haven't been there?" Am I to take your word for it because you're an expert, living in Texas, posting on a Pokemon forum? I've backed up my claims. Where is your proof?

Well for one I too have backed up my claims, second you're main argument for your last few posts has been based on a guess, not a fact.


Already addressed this point in its entirety with the USA Today article, which you fail to shoot down. You're pulling a logical connection out of your ***.

Mind reposting said article, since it seems to have disappeared from your last few posts.


So I use statistics, which you claim are "guesses", and you provide nothing other than your claimed experience?

The only statistics being used here are mine, you have provided what has amounted to a guess from a economist. Becuase the truth is the man has no idea what the truth is. But you parade it around as if it were fact.


Illegals ARE filling the opportunity gap you're talking about, sir. Honestly. You think they'd be coming here if there wasn't an opening?

Oh I have no doubt that they are willing filling a gap by many who are willing to give them lower than normal wages, and treat them horribly. But just like slavery, we will survive with out them.


You say legal immigrants will fill this gap, yet at the same time we have a Congress enforcing stricter immigration controls on legal immigrants, reducing annual student quotas, and cutting green card issuances, work visas, and other means of legal immigration.

And I bet you that if Illegals were taken out, if they just disappeared tomorrow, or next week, or next month. That Congress would be willing to lighten many of those restrictions.



I'd agree with you entirely if you were to advocate some way of reducing illegal immigration other than kicking them out. As for that, I'd argue either for enforcing laws we already have (such as holding companies accountable for their wages) or making it easier (or cheaper) to come here legally.

Well for one I have always believed we need a wall to stop the problem. Picking them up and throwing them back to Mexico is not working. Second while we do need to punish the employers for finding and abusing the illegals, we also need to toss the illegals back. You want to talk about fairness, but by advocating for illegals to stay, you are not being fair to the millions of legal immigrants that wish to come here. And while we can both agree that immgration laws should be loosened a bit, we cannot just give them up and allow a flood to come in. We have seen the destructiveness of that in California as Illegals are crippling many areas of the state.

Chatttownlegend
13th July 2008, 11:11 PM
It doesn't matter if they are slaves or not, both were used as Economic Crutches, and when people demanded to take them away, people rebelled at the thought, thinking we couldn't survive with out our crutches.

Tell me do you think illegal immigrants don't want to be here. Why else would they come here? After slavery was abolished no jobs were lost, America kept them in the country. They still worked, they just got paid. That was the only difference.


Just like slavery, you are still advocating we keep our economic crutch.

THEY WANT TO BE HERE! Being paid less than minimum wage is still better than what they had in Mexico. They have a better life otherwise they wouldn't be here.


Excuse me but you are the one that uses the tired old arguments of slave holders. "We cannot lose them, our economy cannot survive." If anything I would say you need to grow up and realize that our economy can survive with out Illegals.

Tell me how separating families, sending them back to a dump, and ruining their dreams is humane. If anything you are acting like a slave holder. Slave holders would ruin lives and dreams, separate families, and send them to live in a dump. You still don't have any proof that they hurt our economy besides isolated incidents and by saying my statistics are wrong because they are guesses. Kind of like your statistics.


So our economy recovering after losing the major source of labor known as slavery never happened?

It did happen, but we kept the slaves in America unlike you propose to do.


For one as I said these 12 million will not disappear over night, it will be a slow transition but a transition none the less. Second it will spur innovation, just as the end of Slavery did, we will find new ways and cheaper ways to fill the areas illegals once held. You are so blind to believe that we won't be able to fill these spots, either by working jobs, or innovation, as the years progressed. Remember we got through quite well in the 1940s and 1950s when we did not have Illegals around to pick fruits or to mow our yards.

What innovation will make up for 12 million lives. The end of slavery didn't spur innovation all we give them jobs that they already had but paid them instead. And Reconstruction didn't finish until the 1960's. The agricultural production levels weren't the same until then. And no the south was a dump, how about the dust bowl or TVA. TVA in Tennessee saved the south's butts. But you are blind to this. Saying the south was fine in the 40's is just ignorant. It was the poorest region in the nation and we didn't even deport the African Americans.
Do you know about sharecropping? or the Reconstruction? Nobody got along fine after that.


I have given you statistics, you have given me a guess.

And what makes your statistics superior to mine. How is mine a guess. You used FAIRUS. they advocate killing people for economic gain. And you say my statistics aren't legit. If anything you are saying only you can decide whats a fair and whats an illegitimate statistic.


Touche, that doesn't make it any less of a guess.

No it means the guy knows what he's talking about. In other words he's more qualified than you.


Doesn't matter, a guess is still a guess, next time come back with facts or get out.

It is a statistic, just as yours are. He used logic and facts to make a claim, that is what a statistic is, its based on something otherwise it would be a guess. So really you have no clue what a guess or a statistic is. You haven't given anything to support your claims besides history that you don't know, and your "border experience"


The drug dealers get their money, which they then spend back into the economy.

And drug dealers don't do anything to help us. We can survive without drug dealers there's a difference. But at the expense of people and they do it by murdering and indirectly killing people.


"You're being naive and idealistic to argue that in the name of Black Rights we should decimate our national economy" Chatttownlegend Circa 1835.


We should seperate children from their parents, which is the law ( you can't deport US citizens because their parents are illegal immigrants.) ruin hopes and dreams of humans that are the same as you and me. And also kill the economy. That is your view of being humane.


First no you havn't, you are making a guess, just as you made your arguement before on a guess. You throw history and the past aside and act as if we will be blind children not knowing what to do with out Illegals.

And laws should never be changed or altered to help those just becuase they help the country. If so then a company CEO would never be investigated or put in jail.

And you know nothing about our history. Well actually they don't do anything wrong besides be called illegal. All they do is walk across a border. That really isn't bad.



Justice always, ALWAYS prevails over economic well being. We should never be held hostage and allow the guilty go free, just becuase of economic well being. To do so makes laws, and in this case our borders, as useless as the paper they are written on.

Economics and doing the right thing is Justice. Deporting immigrants is wrong they aren't guilty of anything that is actually wrong. And a law can be changed. So really not deporting immigrants isn't destroying society. And there is such thing as justice and economics both being one. How is deporting people justice they mean no harm to us nor do they do any harm.


Actually yes you are, these people are guilty becuase they crossed our borders illegally. By not making them pay for their crimes, we are saying that our country has no borders, that people may freely come and go as they wish.

No really it doesn't mean that. We have simply become reliant on them. And is taking away somebody's kids for j-walking right, because in all honesty the punishment you speak of is worse than what some rapists get. So why don't we arrest people for j walking?



You provided a guess, do not try to make it a fact.

It is a statistic, thats how much they do contribute its not a guess. It is based on facts. Not on nativism crap.



The reasons the gangs are there in the first place is to provide a service to ship illegals over.

Substantiate your claim.



Then the simple answer is that we stop the illegals, and that would take away their main mode of transportation for drugs. Simple as that.


How about go after the criminals instead not the people caught in between.


Actually a illegal presence does hurt me, as they tend to take up jobs, drive down wages, use up schools, and use hospitals. The last two is particuarly important. Seeing how it is what has closed down so many hospitals in California * 85/84 * in the past few years, as well as costing cities like San Diago over 100 Million each year.

http://www.commonvoice.com/article.asp?colid=2177

I would suggest you go to San Diago, or a variety of hospitals in California that are going out of buisness becuase of Illegals, and blindly say "Oh don't worry Illegals don't hurt you"


Those are just "guesses not facts". Plus thats a really low number compared to the national gains from illegal immigration. WHICH I HAVE BASED ON FACTS.


Mind reposting said article, since it seems to have disappeared from your last few posts.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm


The only statistics being used here are mine, you have provided what has amounted to a guess from a economist. Becuase the truth is the man has no idea what the truth is. But you parade it around as if it were fact.

And what about your "statistics" they aren't facts. Every statistic is based on facts otherwise its not a statistic. The guy doesn't go home and make up statistics. And you definitaly aren't an economist.


Oh I have no doubt that they are willing filling a gap by many who are willing to give them lower than normal wages, and treat them horribly. But just like slavery, we will survive with out them.

So to make up for that you want to treat them even worse. Right now they get paid more than they do in Mexico and have more rights. So would ruining lives be that humane compared to having lower wages.


And I bet you that if Illegals were taken out, if they just disappeared tomorrow, or next week, or next month. That Congress would be willing to lighten many of those restrictions.

Thats a guess. You just think that would happen. but would they do that if immigration wasn't necessary.


Well for one I have always believed we need a wall to stop the problem. Picking them up and throwing them back to Mexico is not working. Second while we do need to punish the employers for finding and abusing the illegals, we also need to toss the illegals back. You want to talk about fairness, but by advocating for illegals to stay, you are not being fair to the millions of legal immigrants that wish to come here. And while we can both agree that immgration laws should be loosened a bit, we cannot just give them up and allow a flood to come in. We have seen the destructiveness of that in California as Illegals are crippling many areas of the state.

And tossing them back isn't abusing them, how? And those millions of legal immigrants aren't being affected by the illegal immigrants.

BigLutz
13th July 2008, 11:57 PM
Tell me do you think illegal immigrants don't want to be here. Why else would they come here? After slavery was abolished no jobs were lost, America kept them in the country. They still worked, they just got paid. That was the only difference.

And when Illegals are sent away, there will be people who step up and used the jobs, there will be a need for innovation to make the jobs easier. When Slavery was ended there was a massive need for cheap workers, and just as predicted many farms failed. But at the same time there were workers that were willing to step up, not to mention the innovation brought about that brought change to the cotton industry.


THEY WANT TO BE HERE! Being paid less than minimum wage is still better than what they had in Mexico. They have a better life otherwise they wouldn't be here.

You are either not willing to listen, or not understanding. It doesn't matter if they want to be here or not, that isn't what is being debated. You're excuse is that these industries will fall into chaos if we lose he illegals. That is the same excuse made in the 1800s by land owners that if they lose the slaves, their industries will fall into chaos. But the truth is that they didn't, and the same will happen if the illegals are sent home.


Tell me how separating families, sending them back to a dump, and ruining their dreams is humane.

First I will have Cutie clarify if the families are seperated or not. Second if they want to come back, they can come back legally, like the rest of the world. Tell me how letting one culture, get a free pass to stay here, while the others wait in line and live in horrible conditions is humane?!


If anything you are acting like a slave holder. Slave holders would ruin lives and dreams, separate families, and send them to live in a dump.

Difference is I am not advocating they stay in those dumps, they can come here like everyone else, through the legal and lawful way that we have set up.


You still don't have any proof that they hurt our economy besides isolated incidents and by saying my statistics are wrong because they are guesses. Kind of like your statistics.

Except your statistcs are based on guesses, mine are actual statistics from various cities, and from all over the nation.


It did happen, but we kept the slaves in America unlike you propose to do.

And most of the slaves never returned to their plantations, which brought about the need for changes in the cotton industry. Saying the slaves stayed in America doesn't mean that the industry was saved by the slaves.


What innovation will make up for 12 million lives.The end of slavery didn't spur innovation all we give them jobs that they already had but paid them instead.

Go and read up on your history, after the end of Slavery, innovation in the cotton industry spured the growth of a variety of inventions that replaced the jobs of slaves. As for what innovation will make up for the 12 Million lives, who knows, but mind you not all 12 million work in industries that are needed, many work in things like landscaping jobs or fast food restuarants. So it isn't as if all 12 million are in desperately needed jobs that cannot be filled by the local teenager down the street.


And Reconstruction didn't finish until the 1960's. The agricultural production levels weren't the same until then.

Provide some proof?


And no the south was a dump, how about the dust bowl or TVA. TVA in Tennessee saved the south's butts. But you are blind to this. Saying the south was fine in the 40's is just ignorant.

I never said the South was fine, but in the end many of those things like the Dust Bowl most likely would have happened with or with out slavery. And again you cannot deny the progress that was made in the Cotton industry after slavery was removed.


It was the poorest region in the nation and we didn't even deport the African Americans.
Do you know about sharecropping? or the Reconstruction? Nobody got along fine after that.

Never said they did, but alot of that was from the South's own hatred toward slaves, and thus has nothing to do with this debate.


And what makes your statistics superior to mine. How is mine a guess.

Becuase for one the man who made it has stated it was only a guess or a calculation, never a fact. Second mine is actually numbers presented from facts, it was never the guess of a economist, but the actuial facts on the ground.


You used FAIRUS. they advocate killing people for economic gain.

Their motives do not make the numbers any less real.


And you say my statistics aren't legit. If anything you are saying only you can decide whats a fair and whats an illegitimate statistic.

Well how about this, actually provide me with numbers, not a guess from a economist, but actual calculated numbers provided from census, and the amount put into the GDP, and the amount taken out of taxes by Illegals, and then we can talk.


No it means the guy knows what he's talking about. In other words he's more qualified than you.

Never said he wasn't, but with out a actual source of the numbers he is using for his guess, you have no way of proving what he is saying is reliable.


It is a statistic, just as yours are. He used logic and facts to make a claim, that is what a statistic is, its based on something otherwise it would be a guess.

What facts? What logic? Where are the numbers he used for his calculations? Lets stop dancing around this and you actually provide the numbers that he used to come up with this.


So really you have no clue what a guess or a statistic is. You haven't given anything to support your claims besides history that you don't know, and your "border experience"

Funny seeing how you are the one that has failed in history, and the one that has blindly followed this guess. Now provide the actual numbers that he used so that we can see how he came to this "Statistic" you say it is, or drop it.


And drug dealers don't do anything to help us. We can survive without drug dealers there's a difference. But at the expense of people and they do it by murdering and indirectly killing people.

And we can survive with out Illegal Aliens, both drug dealers and illegals are criminals, they both harm the economy in different ways, and they both have caused servere damage to various states.


We should seperate children from their parents, which is the law ( you can't deport US citizens because their parents are illegal immigrants.) ruin hopes and dreams of humans that are the same as you and me. And also kill the economy. That is your view of being humane.

Well first lets have Cutie answer if the children are seperated or not or if they can stick with their parents. As for ruining hopes and dreams, they should have thought about that before they comitted a crime. As for killing the economy, again you provide no proof of that, and right now from the proof coming out of California, it looks like they are already killing the economy.


And you know nothing about our history. Well actually they don't do anything wrong besides be called illegal. All they do is walk across a border. That really isn't bad.

Yeah it is, we have a soveregn border for a reason, we cannot just have people walk across enmass, it cripples cities, as has been seen in California. You have to have a orderly and timely way for people to come in, and if you violate that, then you are violating the law, and thus have comitted a crime.


Economics and doing the right thing is Justice.

Yes, and the right thing is deportation,.


Deporting immigrants is wrong they aren't guilty of anything that is actually wrong.

Violating the border is wrong.


And a law can be changed.

This wont, dropping the border so that anyone can come in will not be changed.


So really not deporting immigrants isn't destroying society. And there is such thing as justice and economics both being one. How is deporting people justice they mean no harm to us nor do they do any harm.

Well for one not all of them mean no harm to us, there are many of them that are criminals. Second it is justice as they comitted a crime and must now pay for the crime they comitted.


No really it doesn't mean that. We have simply become reliant on them. And is taking away somebody's kids for j-walking right,

If that is the punishment for J-Walking, but again I say we wait for Cutie to tell us if the kids can stay or not.


because in all honesty the punishment you speak of is worse than what some rapists get. So why don't we arrest people for j walking?

Last time I checked we do in many circumstances. And sending people back to their own country, so that they can come back legally isn't worse than what we do to rapist. If we follow Mexico's illegal immigration laws, THAT would be worse than what we do to rapists.


It is a statistic, thats how much they do contribute its not a guess. It is based on facts. Not on nativism crap.

Then I would take it you have no problems actually providing the facts that he used to make this "Statistic"



How about go after the criminals instead not the people caught in between.

They tend to be one and the same, and if they have crossed the border, that makes them criminals.


Those are just "guesses not facts". Plus thats a really low number compared to the national gains from illegal immigration. WHICH I HAVE BASED ON FACTS.

Well for one you have not provided the fact. Second as shown what I have provided was a actual fact from San Diago county.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

Ahh yes the 9 Billion dollars paid, of which they cannot be certain the exact amount that actually came from illegals.


And what about your "statistics" they aren't facts. Every statistic is based on facts otherwise its not a statistic. The guy doesn't go home and make up statistics. And you definitaly aren't an economist.

I have provided you with both statistics and facts in this article, both from city, state, and federal databases. Where is the facts that this man used? Provide them why don't you?


So to make up for that you want to treat them even worse. Right now they get paid more than they do in Mexico and have more rights. So would ruining lives be that humane compared to having lower wages.

We have millions that want to come into this country but cannot becuase of the restrictions placed on immigration by Congress due in large part becuase of Illegal Immigration, that come from alot worse places than Mexico. Is it humane that they have to sit around and wait to come in legally, while a Mexican gets to enjoy the benifits of this country?


Thats a guess. You just think that would happen. but would they do that if immigration wasn't necessary.

Immigration is always necessary, you need to have a standard and orderly process in which to bring people in. If not you would end up with floods of low income people in urban cities, which would cause the destruction of much of the city infastructure. In other words look at California, and how devestated many of their cities are becuase of Illegals.


And tossing them back isn't abusing them, how? And those millions of legal immigrants aren't being affected by the illegal immigrants.

Actually yes they are, becuase of the increase of illegals, Congress has to punish the legals to balance it out. Tossing them back also evens the playing field, everyone should come in through the orderly process set up, they shouldn't get a free pass just becuase they have brown skin.

Also for some more facts on your friendly Illegals here is some from Los Angelas California.

95%, that is the percentage of Outstanding Warrents for Homicide are for Illegal Aliens
66% that is the percentage of Fugitive Felony Warrents are for Illegal Aliens
The 18th Street Gang has 20,000 members, around 60 to 80 percent are Illegal Aliens
60% that is the percentage of the Lil Cyros Street Gang that is made up of Illegals in 2002, that percentage is higher now.

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

Cutiebunny
14th July 2008, 5:03 AM
Blech. You know, even as an Econ major, I always despised arguing with them because of their absolute faith in the superiority of their doctrine.

Just because it's beneficial for the economy does not mean that that policy should be adopted.

Ok Chatto, let's assume, for the point of this argument, that your $428 billion dollar number is accurate. However, instead of using the outdated figure of 12 million illegals, I'm going to go with the high end, the 20 million figure because, from personal experience, I believe that number to be far more accurate.

Now, genetically speaking, a population tends to give birth to more girls than boys, as long as that population is not governed by odd rules and beliefs(ie. China's 'One Child' policy). So, of our 20 million illegal figure, 12 million of them will be women. That means that the other 8 million, by default, are men. Trangenders are likely to be nominal and will not likely affect the this scenario.

Let's say that of the 12 million illegal women, 11 million of them are of child bearing age or, once they hit puberty, will be able to bear children. Of these 11 million women, 10 million of them do not have insurance and/or the ability to pay for the average costs required to pay for childbirth in a public hospital. As I've stated before, the average hospital costs incured to deliver birth in the United States is $10,000. Complications and longer stays, though, are much more expensive.

10,000,000 women x $10,000 = $1,000,000,000

Now, each one of these women will likely have more than just one child. For the point of argument, each illegal woman will give birth to 4 children in the United States and without insurance.

$1,000,000,000 x 4 = $4,000,000,000

We also have a new figure - 10 million illegals have given birth to four children each, meaning that now we have 40 million children, all of whom, since they were born here, are US citizens.

Of these 40 million children, taking into account repatriation, legalization, etc., 35 million will still have at least one illegal parent by the time they hit grade school. The average cost to educate a child from K through 12 is $100,000. This figure takes into account the amount of labor(teachers) involved in educated the child, books, copies, etc. necessary to properly educated them.

35,000,000 x 100,000 = 350,000,000,000.

OOOH! It looks like we've just taken a large chunk out of the 428 billion dollar figure! Add that to the childbirth costs, and we're now at 354 billion dollars.

But let's also add the amount of illegal children currently living in the United States too. Of the 20 million, let's say that there are currently 10 million children that are illegal present in the United States that are all of(or will be) of school age. Since they're of varying ages, let's estimate their cost at roughly $80,000 each. This will take into account older children as well.

So, 10,000,000 x $80,000 = $80,000,000,000

That puts us now at 433 billion dollars.

Now, let's revert back to the original figure of 20 million illegals. Notwithstanding the initial mideamnor charge that all 20 million of these illegals have on them, illegal immigrants tend to be prone to crime. Of our 20 million illegals, let's say that 8 million of them have, at some point, been incarcerated. It costs $100,000 per year to lock someone up. This number includes meals, clothes, medical services(it's free in prison) and the supervision to watch them.

8,000,000 x 100,000 = $8,000,000,000/year.

And let's also say that it costs 2 billion per year for police forces to round up the criminal alines and any administrative costs associated with prosecuting them(ie. lawyer fees).

So that's a good 10 billion there, per year.

I'm sure you're starting to get the picture, aren't you? Your 428 billion of funds contributed by illegals is well past gone.

But we're not done yet.

Let's take into account the amount of federal officers employed by Homeland Security. One of their largest and most important jobs is to stop the flow of illegal immigration. Homeland Security governs over several large organizations in this area; Customs and Border Protection, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, US Citizenship and Immigration Services and Border Patrol.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that Homeland Security currently employs 100,000 individuals in all areas pertaining to immigration. The average salary of a GS-11 employee is $57,000 a year. This does not include 'hardship location' pay and the 35K overtime cap that any employee can make in a year(federal law - applies to everyone). For the purpose of this argument, every officer is at a GS-11 level, even though one can make it up the ladder to a GS-15 and make roughly $175,000 a year.

So, 100,000 x $57,000 = $157,000,000

What about other services that illegals use...such as basic health care? Many illegals go to the emergency rooms because they can't afford health insurance.

Admittance to the ER, without insurance, starts at a minimum of $5000. Costs quickly rise thereafter.

How about the impact of gangs? Gangs such as the Mara Salvatrucha have ravaged border states such as California, Arizona and Texas. According to a program I viewed on National Geographic Channel, the MS-13 was started by children of illegal El Salvadorean immigrants. This gang has a large illegal and children of illegal base. The damage they do to our cities is enormous. It impacts the local police force as well as the citizens that they are designed to protect. Let's say the the MS-13 ganges in LA kill roughly 500 individuals a year. And please, don't tell me that the MS doesn't kill this many - they're an increadibly ruthless gang and they're likely to kill much more than this number.

Now, economically speaking, each life is valued at $10,000. You probably know this as you claim to be quite savy when it comes to economic policy. So, we have a real cost of $500,000 a year on the LA community in terms of life loss due to illegal involvement in LA gangs. This doesn't take into account the amount of money spent on saving these individuals(or any individuals that the MS only injured, not killed).


If you've gathered anything by my argument, you'll see that the real cost in terms of drain on society and resources is much more than the 428 billion dollars of revenue which you believe that illegals contribute on a year basis.

Oh, and since it's been asked, I'll answer. US citizen born children of illegal immigrants are not required to return to the home country of their deported parents, however, they can return if they and their parents choose to do so.

BigLutz
14th July 2008, 5:12 AM
Oh, and since it's been asked, I'll answer. US citizen born children of illegal immigrants are not required to return to the home country of their deported parents, however, they can return if they and their parents choose to do so.

Thank you Cutie, that should put a end to the BS argument that parents are seperated from their kids and all that.

Chatttownlegend
14th July 2008, 6:18 AM
And when Illegals are sent away, there will be people who step up and used the jobs, there will be a need for innovation to make the jobs easier. When Slavery was ended there was a massive need for cheap workers, and just as predicted many farms failed. But at the same time there were workers that were willing to step up, not to mention the innovation brought about that brought change to the cotton industry.

And who were those cheap workers. The former slaves. No southerner, who isn't dumb, would deny that the south was demolished during the civil war. I live in Tennessee, texas wasn't affected it was Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, and so forth. Blacks were forced back into work. They were still mistreated. The north wouldn't allow them to leave nor would the south. though many did, the fact of the matter is that the south still relied on sharecropping and tenant farming to get by. TVA was created by FDR to bring the south out of its Hell hole. You know nothing about the south. And the cotton industry never returned to its normal state. Black people didn't move they got the same crappy life they had before except they got paid. They were still raped killed and abused by the white population. One law didn't change the Southern whites attitudes. So really it was the same as it was before except they had to pay people and rebuild their farms and land.


You are either not willing to listen, or not understanding. It doesn't matter if they want to be here or not, that isn't what is being debated. You're excuse is that these industries will fall into chaos if we lose he illegals. That is the same excuse made in the 1800s by land owners that if they lose the slaves, their industries will fall into chaos. But the truth is that they didn't, and the same will happen if the illegals are sent home.

And it did happen except there was a purpose for it happening. It came to help African Americans by allowing the next steps for having equal rights, but it still destroyed the economy of the south.


First I will have Cutie clarify if the families are seperated or not. Second if they want to come back, they can come back legally, like the rest of the world. Tell me how letting one culture, get a free pass to stay here, while the others wait in line and live in horrible conditions is humane?!

IF there is a legal citizen born in the country, than they can't be taken back by a person who is not a legally born citizen. 1.6 million children and spouses have been separated from their husbands/fathers since the 1996 immigration laws.
http://www.immigration-greencard.com/2007/07/deportation-separates-families.html
Thats from the Human rights watch. So you know its inhumane when the same people who do research on Sudan and Rwanda are researching Immigration. The EB-1 preference is for “priority workers” and is allocated 40,000 visas per year. These are workers of “extraordinary ability” in science, the arts, education, business or athletics as well as “outstanding professors and researchers” or “multinational executives and managers.” And you think they can still come in. They are farm workers or textile workers not philosophers or baseball stars.


Difference is I am not advocating they stay in those dumps, they can come here like everyone else, through the legal and lawful way that we have set up.

Haha, they can't afford that. You know that as well as I do. Only the richest or most important people get in. Don't BS me with "they can get in if they work hard" Even if you lived over there you couldn't get in.


Except your statistcs are based on guesses, mine are actual statistics from various cities, and from all over the nation.

That means its fulled with Bureaucratic crap. My statistic is by somebody who gets paid to be unbiased. Yours is by a city that just wants to make a point. If you can explain to me what makes a cities statistics better than a educated legit person I may be a bit happier.


And most of the slaves never returned to their plantations, which brought about the need for changes in the cotton industry. Saying the slaves stayed in America doesn't mean that the industry was saved by the slaves.

No they had no means to leave. Many were kept by their white slave owners many had no place to go except back to the whites that had enslaved them. Many stayed. And the whole point was that the south was destroyed after the civil war.


Go and read up on your history, after the end of Slavery, innovation in the cotton industry spured the growth of a variety of inventions that replaced the jobs of slaves. As for what innovation will make up for the 12 Million lives, who knows, but mind you not all 12 million work in industries that are needed, many work in things like landscaping jobs or fast food restuarants. So it isn't as if all 12 million are in desperately needed jobs that cannot be filled by the local teenager down the street.


No, You won't find 12 million teenagers to fill in the factory work or the agriculture work and even the construction or landscaping. There are child laws, they can't work full time. Tell me what innovation saved the south? Was it really innovation, nobody magically appeared and there weren't machines picking fruit. So it was more likely the jobs filled by slaves and the New Deal that saved them. Nothing can replace a human life. What inventions and innovations saved the south please tell me.


Provide some proof?

It's in a college level text book called, The American People creating a nation and a society. But of course you won't believe that was probably pointless.


I never said the South was fine, but in the end many of those things like the Dust Bowl most likely would have happened with or with out slavery. And again you cannot deny the progress that was made in the Cotton industry after slavery was removed.

Yeah so in other words my point is proven the south was ruined. Though it was a good thing that we abolished slavery, The same will happen to America in this situation except for no good reason.



Never said they did, but alot of that was from the South's own hatred toward slaves, and thus has nothing to do with this debate.

All I was saying is that after slavery there were people to fill the jobs, the former slaves. It is a totally relevant historic issue.


Becuase for one the man who made it has stated it was only a guess or a calculation, never a fact. Second mine is actually numbers presented from facts, it was never the guess of a economist, but the actuial facts on the ground.


Your statistics aren't facts. Read the article too. He said he calculated them, not guessed. That means he added up other facts to get that. What were your statistics based on. Do you even know how the city got their statistics or what they are about. My statistic adds in if they were 30% less productive. Even if that were a guess off by 200 billion it would be better than anything you've given me. Give me one national cost that the illegal immigrants have given us. How much they cost the federal government. DO you even know. 100 million dollars isn't that much from a national standpoint. None of your statistics are big numbers. You just pull up random isolated incidents not the nationwide harms and benefits.


Their motives do not make the numbers any less real.

It just means they are crazy. And they shouldn't be taken seriously.



Well how about this, actually provide me with numbers, not a guess from a economist, but actual calculated numbers provided from census, and the amount put into the GDP, and the amount taken out of taxes by Illegals, and then we can talk.

That statistic was the money contributed into the GDP. Plus as much as you would like that statistic to be made up it wasn't otherwise it wouldn't be covered by a legitimate news source. And I've said a million times your statistics are from whack jobs or from cities which are just catering to their voters while mine is from an economist who is a good source. If you can't believe an economist you can't believe the census or the cities you talk about. The economist is the ground source that compiles data and makes a claim.


Never said he wasn't, but with out a actual source of the numbers he is using for his guess, you have no way of proving what he is saying is reliable.

Tell me what were the numbers that made up your statistics. What did they base those off? Just saying that statistic is wrong isn't doing anything. He is apparently taken seriously by the media and the economics community he has his Masters, Phd, and Bachelors. He went to Michigan University and University of Austen and he is a professor. Now tell me who made up your stats what were their backgrounds and what did they base their info off of. And you can say any statistic is unreliable the fact of the matter is that you won't give up unless Jesus in the flesh came to you and told you this.



What facts? What logic? Where are the numbers he used for his calculations? Lets stop dancing around this and you actually provide the numbers that he used to come up with this.

He said he calculated that that means he used facts to make that claim. THATS WHAT A STATISTIC IS!!! He doesn't just say, hmmm I'm going to make up a statistic today.


Funny seeing how you are the one that has failed in history, and the one that has blindly followed this guess. Now provide the actual numbers that he used so that we can see how he came to this "Statistic" you say it is, or drop it.

I don't blindly follow it. For god's sake he used facts to make it, otherwise he didn't calculate it and it wouldn't be in the news.


And we can survive with out Illegal Aliens, both drug dealers and illegals are criminals, they both harm the economy in different ways, and they both have caused servere damage to various states.

But what damage have they done to America. San Diego isn't America. And once again go back to my original points and you will see that they have helped the economy. Plus you still haven't given me what I asked for in the beginning, statistics that are over 94 billion dollars oh and that was by the ICE. and that excluded court costs.



Well first lets have Cutie answer if the children are seperated or not or if they can stick with their parents. As for ruining hopes and dreams, they should have thought about that before they comitted a crime. As for killing the economy, again you provide no proof of that, and right now from the proof coming out of California, it looks like they are already killing the economy.

How about you learn about the Immigration acts of 1996 instead. And I have repeatedly proven that job losses, Federal losses, and other things would plague the United States if we were to deport the immigrants. And comparing an illegal immigrant to a drug dealer is sick.


Yeah it is, we have a soveregn border for a reason, we cannot just have people walk across enmass, it cripples cities, as has been seen in California. You have to have a orderly and timely way for people to come in, and if you violate that, then you are violating the law, and thus have comitted a crime.

To bad there is no Green cards for 12 million people will be made that are searching for factory and farm workers that will work minimum wage. only 40,000 get admitted per year. And violating that really isn't that bad. Though it is against the law, it doesn't mean we should deport them.


Yes, and the right thing is deportation,.

Tell me that 94 billion dollars later.



violating the border is wrong.

No, not really.


This wont, dropping the border so that anyone can come in will not be changed.

I never said drop the border i just said deportation is too costly.



Well for one not all of them mean no harm to us, there are many of them that are criminals. Second it is justice as they comitted a crime and must now pay for the crime they comitted.

This is far worse then Retributive Justice it is you kick me i Kill you and mutilate your corpse punishment. Seperate a family ruin lives all because they wanted their children or themselves to have a better life so they walked somewhere illegally? That is wrong.


If that is the punishment for J-Walking, but again I say we wait for Cutie to tell us if the kids can stay or not.


Just because its a law doesn't make something right. And cutie isn't god. I've proven that. I guess we don't have to separate families but if you don't you aren't doing your job.


Last time I checked we do in many circumstances. And sending people back to their own country, so that they can come back legally isn't worse than what we do to rapist. If we follow Mexico's illegal immigration laws, THAT would be worse than what we do to rapists.

Rapists get a bit of jail time then they can live where they want and live a normal life. Immigrants get jail, get separated from their families, and then have to live in their crappy home. Plus every illegal can be caught rapists get off A LOT.


They tend to be one and the same, and if they have crossed the border, that makes them criminals.

Not all criminals can be lumped into one group. And they aren't the "bad" guys they are just trying to make ends meet, while drug smugglers and murders that transport them to the desert are bad.


Well for one you have not provided the fact. Second as shown what I have provided was a actual fact from San Diago county.

i provided you with two solid statistics that are far better than anything you can pull off the internet. Oh no San Diego accounts for what 2 million Americans. If you can provide me with something on a nation wide level I may take you seriously.


Ahh yes the 9 Billion dollars paid, of which they cannot be certain the exact amount that actually came from illegals.

I never even mentioned that part of the article and by your logic almost all statistics are false because they aren't facts.


I have provided you with both statistics and facts in this article, both from city, state, and federal databases. Where is the facts that this man used? Provide them why don't you?


I don't need to know what he based them on only that he based it on something that isn't made up. He is a legitimate economist thats job is to calculate these things and provide legitimate claims on issues. What does the government base their statistics off of? Do you know that. They base it off of the work of Economists and studies. They use statistics to prove a point.


We have millions that want to come into this country but cannot becuase of the restrictions placed on immigration by Congress due in large part becuase of Illegal Immigration, that come from alot worse places than Mexico. Is it humane that they have to sit around and wait to come in legally, while a Mexican gets to enjoy the benifits of this country?

No they were placed after the immigration boom during the early 1900's. And should we kick people out because other people want to be here. Should I make you leave because a man from China wants to come here. Just because somebody wants something doesn't mean somebody else who has it should give it up.



Immigration is always necessary, you need to have a standard and orderly process in which to bring people in. If not you would end up with floods of low income people in urban cities, which would cause the destruction of much of the city infastructure. In other words look at California, and how devestated many of their cities are becuase of Illegals.

California isn't some hell hole like you make it out to be plus there is no way to bring in 12 million people legally under current law. We would have to increase the amount of people let in by 300 times what it currently is. That won't happen overnight just like the immigrants didn't come in overnight. But replacing them i just a more costly way of keeping them in the country. In raising the amount of legal immigrants you are saying that we lost jobs and our economy needs help.


Actually yes they are, becuase of the increase of illegals, Congress has to punish the legals to balance it out. Tossing them back also evens the playing field, everyone should come in through the orderly process set up, they shouldn't get a free pass just becuase they have brown skin.


They don't get free passes because they are brown. That has no proof behind it. And we don't just kick people out so that nobody can compete to get in. Nobody gets visas or green cards for working on farms, that just cuts the playing field. At the time there are a few people that can come in. At the time nobody can get in unless they are powerful or rich.


Also for some more facts on your friendly Illegals here is some from
Los Angelas California.
95%, that is the percentage of Outstanding Warrents for Homicide are for Illegal Aliens
66% that is the percentage of Fugitive Felony Warrents are for Illegal Aliens
The 18th Street Gang has 20,000 members, around 60 to 80 percent are Illegal Aliens
60% that is the percentage of the Lil Cyros Street Gang that is made up of Illegals in 2002, that percentage is higher now.

http://la.metblogs.com/2006/05/03/95-of-la-murder-warrants-are-for-illegal-aliens/
When I first saw this statistic i knew it was fake. Turns out it is. The woman who wrote this isn't qualified in those areas. She works in Medical law. The LA Times is reporting it is a hoax to. Those stats even if they were real, couldn't be used by your logic considering they aren't done by a government institution yet alone a qualified individual. So really those statistics are just complete hoaxes.

BigLutz
14th July 2008, 7:47 AM
And who were those cheap workers. The former slaves.

Not all of them.


TVA was created by FDR to bring the south out of its Hell hole.

Funny how I could say the exact same thing about you.


You know nothing about the south. And the cotton industry never returned to its normal state.

Yet the innovation brought about in the cotton industry at the end of the Civil War brought about a Industrial Revolution in the south and actually helped them.


Black people didn't move they got the same crappy life they had before except they got paid. They were still raped killed and abused by the white population. One law didn't change the Southern whites attitudes. So really it was the same as it was before except they had to pay people and rebuild their farms and land.

Never said it didn't, but many Blacks did end up getting up and leaving the plantations to never return. Yes a great majority of blacks did get mis treated, but that has nothing to do with the debate.


And it did happen except there was a purpose for it happening. It came to help African Americans by allowing the next steps for having equal rights, but it still destroyed the economy of the south.

Even though it destroyed the economy of the south, it was still worthwhile in the long run, and 20 years after it happened the South was in the throws of a Industrial Revolution due to the Cotton mill, as well as various other inventions.


IF there is a legal citizen born in the country, than they can't be taken back by a person who is not a legally born citizen. 1.6 million children and spouses have been separated from their husbands/fathers since the 1996 immigration laws.
http://www.immigration-greencard.com/2007/07/deportation-separates-families.html

Funny how Cutie, a actual worker for the Immigration Service, disagrees with you.


Haha, they can't afford that. You know that as well as I do. Only the richest or most important people get in. Don't BS me with "they can get in if they work hard" Even if you lived over there you couldn't get in.

Go down to any dock that brings in legal immigrants and tell me how "Rich" those people look. You really are just making up crap now.


That means its fulled with Bureaucratic crap. My statistic is by somebody who gets paid to be unbiased.

Funny how from all I read the man isn't unbiased.


Yours is by a city that just wants to make a point. If you can explain to me what makes a cities statistics better than a educated legit person I may be a bit happier.

A educated ( although not ligit ) person has a agenda, they are one person working for a cause. A city is forced to release it's numbers through various laws already set up. Those laws and the information released by them do not apply to this person.


No they had no means to leave.

Its called walking, many people do it.


Many were kept by their white slave owners many had no place to go except back to the whites that had enslaved them. Many stayed. And the whole point was that the south was destroyed after the civil war.

And I have agreed that the south was destroyed after the Civil War, but in the end it bounced back in alot of ways in the 1880s and past that. People saw a need for innovation, a need to find new ways to do things, and in the end that brought about inventions and new ways of thinking.


No, You won't find 12 million teenagers to fill in the factory work or the agriculture work and even the construction or landscaping.

Ahh but I bet I can find a good million to two to even three million teenagers that can flip hamburgers, or cut yards, and weedwack bushes. Not all of the illegals work in factories or construction.


There are child laws, they can't work full time. Tell me what innovation saved the south? Was it really innovation, nobody magically appeared and there weren't machines picking fruit. So it was more likely the jobs filled by slaves and the New Deal that saved them. Nothing can replace a human life. What inventions and innovations saved the south please tell me.

First up was the Cotton Mill, and then came a variety of other products that made picking cotton easier and faster, which replaced jobs that were once held by slaves. I would suggest reading up on the South's Industrial Revolution.


It's in a college level text book called, The American People creating a nation and a society. But of course you won't believe that was probably pointless.

Provide some actual proof from the book, and then we will talk. It is up to you to actually provide it in a debate.


Yeah so in other words my point is proven the south was ruined. Though it was a good thing that we abolished slavery, The same will happen to America in this situation except for no good reason.

The good would be that we had finally thrown off Illegal Immigration. Then again of course there are people like you who would believe that is a bad thing, just like there were people like you in the past that thought throwing off slavery was a bad thing.


All I was saying is that after slavery there were people to fill the jobs, the former slaves. It is a totally relevant historic issue.

And there were also machines and other innovations that were needed and brought about change in these jobs.


Your statistics aren't facts. Read the article too. He said he calculated them, not guessed.

Mind telling me which statistics you do not believe are facts? Second, until we actually have the stats he used, we have no idea how he calculated them.


That means he added up other facts to get that.

How many? Which ones? Where did he get them?


What were your statistics based on. Do you even know how the city got their statistics or what they are about.

Information reported by hospitals, remember all of them have to report how much money they are losing so that they can be reimburced by the Government. Problem is the Government doesn't pay back all the money.


My statistic adds in if they were 30% less productive. Even if that were a guess off by 200 billion it would be better than anything you've given me.

Alright well give me all the statistics he used, every bit of information he used to calculate in. My data actually comes from the hospitals, I know where my data comes from, you cannot say the same for your statistics.


Give me one national cost that the illegal immigrants have given us. How much they cost the federal government. DO you even know.

Seeing how the full amount of costs are have yet to be disclosed, the number is atleast much higher than California which it costs them 10.5 Billion a year.


100 million dollars isn't that much from a national standpoint. None of your statistics are big numbers. You just pull up random isolated incidents not the nationwide harms and benefits.

It is for a city stand point, and while the national wide harm has not been calculated, the harm to several individual states has. For example in California alone it is 10.5 Billion a year. In Texas it is 4.7 Billion Dollars just for education. In Arizona it cost 1.4 Billion Dollars just for forced down wages. With both Texas and Arizona the full price could go as far if not further than California.


It just means they are crazy. And they shouldn't be taken seriously.

I'm sorry I didn't know that numbers could have mental conditions.



That statistic was the money contributed into the GDP. Plus as much as you would like that statistic to be made up it wasn't otherwise it wouldn't be covered by a legitimate news source.

Then obviously you can provide the information used to come to that statistic.


And I've said a million times your statistics are from whack jobs or from cities which are just catering to their voters while mine is from an economist who is a good source.

We could go around this circle all day, you say my statistic has a motive, and I can say the same about yours.


If you can't believe an economist you can't believe the census or the cities you talk about. The economist is the ground source that compiles data and makes a claim.

All I am doing is questioning the calculation done, and what actual numbers he used. So far you have not provided any of the numbers he used to come to such a calculation. Yet you blindly follow it.


Tell me what were the numbers that made up your statistics. What did they base those off?

For the hospitals it was based on how much the hospitals lose per year by the cost of Illegals coming in and unable to pay. As well as the number of hospitals that had to be forced to close due to the cost of illegals on their hospitals.


Just saying that statistic is wrong isn't doing anything. He is apparently taken seriously by the media and the economics community he has his Masters, Phd, and Bachelors.

Being taken serious by the media isn't that big of a leap in this day.


He went to Michigan University and University of Austen and he is a professor. Now tell me who made up your stats what were their backgrounds and what did they base their info off of.

As I have said various times, it has come from the actual people on the scene. Now you can throw out as many credentials as you want for this guy. That doesn't automatically give him a free pass on being right or unbiased. NOR does it give me the actual statistics he used for the calculation.


And you can say any statistic is unreliable the fact of the matter is that you won't give up unless Jesus in the flesh came to you and told you this.

And you blindly follow this man like a lemming, hiding like a coward behind his credentials with out actually providing the information he used. You continue to say "423 Billion". That is fine, but what did he use to get to that number? I have provided you the raw data for the hospitals of the city of San Diago, as well as information on how many hospitals in California have shut down. You just throw out a single number with out any information behind it.


He said he calculated that that means he used facts to make that claim. THATS WHAT A STATISTIC IS!!! He doesn't just say, hmmm I'm going to make up a statistic today.

Then please provide the information he used so that we can truely judge if he was using unbiased information or not.


I don't blindly follow it. For god's sake he used facts to make it, otherwise he didn't calculate it and it wouldn't be in the news.

And what facts did he used? We're they tainted? Did he pick and choose which facts to choose? Was his facts out dated? And you would be surprised as to who is put on the news these days with out having his information vetted. Just being put on the news does not make you right.


But what damage have they done to America. San Diego isn't America.

84 Hospitals in California alone gives you a idea of the damage, and while San Diago isn't America, it is one example of the entire problem, and how much destruction they are causing in California and other border states.



How about you learn about the Immigration acts of 1996 instead.

I direct you to a actual immigration official.


And I have repeatedly proven that job losses, Federal losses, and other things would plague the United States if we were to deport the immigrants. And comparing an illegal immigrant to a drug dealer is sick.

There is no doubt there would be job losses, but since the bleed would be slow anyway over various years, there obviously will be time for us to adapt slowly, and or find people to fill those jobs.


Though it is against the law, it doesn't mean we should deport them.

If they broke the law, which they have, then they should face the punishment of the law.


Tell me that 94 billion dollars later.

Seeing how it will not cost 94 Billion automatically, but over a slow amount of years, possibly 5 to 10, then 94 Billion shouldnt be a problem. Hell the amount of money that California spends on Illegals in just ten year's time could repay the 94 Billion.


No, not really.

Yeah because you don't care about borders or sovereignty or all that silly stuff.


I never said drop the border i just said deportation is too costly.

What good is a border if you choose not to enforce it?


This is far worse then Retributive Justice it is you kick me i Kill you and mutilate your corpse punishment. Seperate a family ruin lives all because they wanted their children or themselves to have a better life so they walked somewhere illegally? That is wrong.

As Cutie has already pointed out, the parents are given a choice, the children come with them, or stay in America.


Just because its a law doesn't make something right. And cutie isn't god. I've proven that. I guess we don't have to separate families but if you don't you aren't doing your job.

You're right just becuase it's a law doesn't make it right, but it does mean it must be followed. And while there have been many laws in our history that have been unjust, this is not one of them.


Rapists get a bit of jail time then they can live where they want and live a normal life. Immigrants get jail, get separated from their families, and then have to live in their crappy home. Plus every illegal can be caught rapists get off A LOT.

And many illegals can be caught and released, infact that is the name of the program used for a long while "Catch and Released". Illegals also are sent back to their own country where they can reapply to get in, Rapists are forced to spend much if not all their lives in jail, as well as being demonized for the rest of their lives by having their names put in a variety of data bases.


Not all criminals can be lumped into one group. And they aren't the "bad" guys they are just trying to make ends meet, while drug smugglers and murders that transport them to the desert are bad.

Funny how so many criminals could just be put into the class of "just trying to make ends meet". Robbers, Drug Dealers, muggers, so many are forced into a life of crime just to make ends meet. Lets let them all go! They most likely all have families too! Putting them in jail would sepperate them from their families and we damn well cant have that!


i provided you with two solid statistics that are far better than anything you can pull off the internet. Oh no San Diego accounts for what 2 million Americans. If you can provide me with something on a nation wide level I may take you seriously.

So let me get this straight, outside of San Diago everything is just hunkie dorie? This is a problem you already had with the 2002 statistics, you falsely believe that it is just a anonmly that everything is okay except for that one time. Problem is as I have already proven, its not just confined to San Diago, the problem has spread to hospitals all across California.

But lets look outside of hospitals in California, over in Arizona hospitals are going further and further in debt becuase of Illegals.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1918596/posts

And even further, Texas hospitals are having to cut down on care for Illegals becuase the costs are just getting too high.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3943154

Should I keep going?


I never even mentioned that part of the article and by your logic almost all statistics are false because they aren't facts.

I just want the facts that provided the statistics from the one you have given. So far you have provided nothing.


I don't need to know what he based them on only that he based it on something that isn't made up.

How can you know he didn't pick or choose or that he didn't make it up if you do not know the facts?


He is a legitimate economist thats job is to calculate these things and provide legitimate claims on issues.

He can also cheery pick and choose to ignore certain statistics.


What does the government base their statistics off of? Do you know that. They base it off of the work of Economists and studies. They use statistics to prove a point.

They also use them from stats provided by the sources. Now I am not saying all economists are wrong, I just want to know the facts he used to come to that conclusion. Something YOU have not provided.


No they were placed after the immigration boom during the early 1900's. And should we kick people out because other people want to be here.

Yep, if the other people are not following the rules, and these people are, they deserve to come first.


Should I make you leave because a man from China wants to come here.

If I were a illegal and I did not come here he proper way while the man from China has, then yes.


Just because somebody wants something doesn't mean somebody else who has it should give it up.

To reward your sentence. Just becuase somebody wants something, DOES mean somebody else who broke the law to get that same something should give it up.


California isn't some hell hole like you make it out to be

Just try not to get healthcare in any border hospital.


plus there is no way to bring in 12 million people legally under current law. We would have to increase the amount of people let in by 300 times what it currently is. That won't happen overnight just like the immigrants didn't come in overnight.

Its called attrition, not all 12 Million will leave at one time.


But replacing them i just a more costly way of keeping them in the country. In raising the amount of legal immigrants you are saying that we lost jobs and our economy needs help.

It is also a way to even the playing field, so that people from China, or France, or yes even Mexico, each have a equal chance to get in, and go after those jobs.


They don't get free passes because they are brown. That has no proof behind it.

See many tan or black skinned Mexicans? Using skin color may not be the best way to phrase the sentence. But either way they are getting a free pass becuase their country is next to ours.


At the time nobody can get in unless they are powerful or rich.

And I will have to ask for facts and proof of the financial status of legal immigrants?



When I first saw this statistic i knew it was fake. Turns out it is. The woman who wrote this isn't qualified in those areas. She works in Medical law.

Well first the person who presented this information was Heather Mac Donald, the article I posted was just using it, and wasn't the original researcher for those numbers. The original source of those numbers, Heather Mac Donald is a think tank researcher on Illegal Immigrants based out of New York, the numbers come from a testimony she gave Congress.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/mac_donald04-13-05.htm

Now just for fun, Snopes does have a article on it, and while she does not site a source for her information. There is another source that is sited for simular information.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

The other source/information comes from 1985, where nearly 50% of warrents involved Mexican Nationals who have escaped the country. Now unless you plan to tell me that the number of Illegals suddenly went down in LA between 1985 and now, then it wouldn't be such a leap to say that the number has gone up as the number of illegals in LA increases dramatically. Now could it be lower than 90%? Possibly. Could Heather be right in her testimony to Congress? Just as possible.


The LA Times is reporting it is a hoax to.

Seeing how pathetic the LA Times has been lately, I would say that furthers her argument.


Those stats even if they were real, couldn't be used by your logic considering they aren't done by a government institution yet alone a qualified individual. So really those statistics are just complete hoaxes.

By my logic I would ask where they got them, what were the numbers used to calculate the crimes. But if you wish to believe they are complete hoaxes then that is fine with me. But I am still waiting for the "facts" used by this Economist to get the 428 Billion GDP number.

Also I noticed you avoided Cutie's post, but lets make this easy. Provide the GDP of one illegal, lets times that by 5.3 Million ( The number estimated of working illegals, since not every illegal is a working 25 year old man ), and lets see if it comes anywhere near the 428 Billion Number.

Infact what I find funny, is that we cannot even know how many illegals are actually in the country, and out of that we do not know how many are actually working. Yet you want to throw out a exact number of their GDP.

Cutiebunny
14th July 2008, 9:23 AM
IF there is a legal citizen born in the country, than they can't be taken back by a person who is not a legally born citizen. 1.6 million children and spouses have been separated from their husbands/fathers since the 1996 immigration laws.

BS. Can't take them back? You've reduced the spawn of these illegals to unwanted dogs now? LMAO!

As I said earlier, US citizen children can return with their illegal parents. They do it all the time. The only reason that this lame-o site comes up is that a few hundred deportees whine about what a cruel decision they had to make to keep their child in the US while they returned to their country.


http://www.immigration-greencard.com/2007/07/deportation-separates-families.html
Thats from the Human rights watch. So you know its inhumane when the same people who do research on Sudan and Rwanda are researching Immigration.

Since when do Economists, such as what you've proclaimed yourself to be, care about humane treatments? It's all 'bout the Benjamins, G!



The EB-1 preference is for “priority workers” and is allocated 40,000 visas per year. These are workers of “extraordinary ability” in science, the arts, education, business or athletics as well as “outstanding professors and researchers” or “multinational executives and managers.” And you think they can still come in. They are farm workers or textile workers not philosophers or baseball stars.

There are other classifications and temporary visas that people can apply for. You just find one whiny website and proclaim yourself to be the Immigration Master.




Only the richest or most important people get in.

And this is different from other first world nations how...?


Don't BS me with "they can get in if they work hard" Even if you lived over there you couldn't get in.

How hard do you have to work for a family based petition? Make sure you sleep with the right person? Geez...that's gotta be tough.







No they had no means to leave. Many were kept by their white slave owners many had no place to go except back to the whites that had enslaved them. Many stayed. And the whole point was that the south was destroyed after the civil war.

One word - LIBERIA.




No, You won't find 12 million teenagers to fill in the factory work or the agriculture work and even the construction or landscaping. There are child laws, they can't work full time. Tell me what innovation saved the south? Was it really innovation, nobody magically appeared and there weren't machines picking fruit. So it was more likely the jobs filled by slaves and the New Deal that saved them. Nothing can replace a human life. What inventions and innovations saved the south please tell me.

I know of a lot of teens that would like to find some kind of summer job that did not involve "Would you like fries with that?".








San Diego isn't America.

Last time I checked a map, it was.




How about you learn about the Immigration acts of 1996 instead.

Tell me how!





And cutie isn't god.

SIGWORTHY!



I've proven that.

I see that you're a fine graduate of the Bunsen & Beaker Science Skool.

I wonder if Chatto will address my earlier post. Survey says no!

Mandi.
14th July 2008, 7:10 PM
They shouldn't be here at all if they are illegal.

We need to stop letting them be able to do stuff here.
People need to become citizens the right way.

And learn some English before you come here, plz. :[

kingortiz
14th July 2008, 9:41 PM
How can some of you have the nerve to not allow people their liscenses!!!!!!???? They have as much right as the other guy. Just because they come from a different country, it doesn't make them any different from anyone. First of all, native americans were the literal frist citizens here. If you are not in any way related to them, that means your ancestors were not born in this country. All of us are immigrants. they just came a little late.

BigLutz
14th July 2008, 9:46 PM
How can some of you have the nerve to not allow people their liscenses!!!!!!???? They have as much right as the other guy.

No they don't, they did not come here through the legal process. Becuase they broke the rules, becuase they went outside of the system to get here, then they don't deserve the lisence.


Just because they come from a different country, it doesn't make them any different from anyone.

And if they came here legally, through the correct means, they would be able to get a lisence as well as anything else.


First of all, native americans were the literal frist citizens here. If you are not in any way related to them, that means your ancestors were not born in this country. All of us are immigrants. they just came a little late.

You seriously need to learn how to read, we are not talking about Legal Immigrants, we are talking about Illegal Immigrants, aka Immigrants that snuck across the border and entered this country illegally.

Carlisle
14th July 2008, 9:48 PM
How can some of you have the nerve to not allow people their liscenses!!!!!!???? They have as much right as the other guy. Just because they come from a different country, it doesn't make them any different from anyone. First of all, native americans were the literal frist citizens here. If you are not in any way related to them, that means your ancestors were not born in this country. All of us are immigrants. they just came a little late.
Someone didn't read the thread. Do you not know what the word illegal means?

kingortiz
14th July 2008, 9:48 PM
i kno wat the hell were talking about biglutz thank you. okay i bet you $300 that your parents have ancestors from another country. so you need to shut your yap cuz you are no better than any immigrant! you too carlisle shut the F**k up

Carlisle
14th July 2008, 9:49 PM
i kno wat the hell were talking about biglutz thank you. okay i bet you $300 that your parents have ancestors from another country. so you need to shut your yap cuz you are no better than any immigrant!
These people aren't immigrants, they're criminals.

BigLutz
14th July 2008, 9:51 PM
i kno wat the hell were talking about biglutz thank you. okay i bet you $300 that your parents have ancestors from another country. so you need to shut your yap cuz you are no better than any immigrant! you too carlisle shut the F**k up

First I would suggest learning how to speak English. Second yes my ancestors are immigrants, they also immigrated over here LEGALLY! They followed the system and came in the same way millions of Americans have. And thus they got the rights and freedoms that they deserved. Why? Becuase they came in here LEGALLY

Jhonny
14th July 2008, 11:23 PM
To be allowed the benefits of a legal system a person must be a legitimate citizen of that place. If they do not belong to the place then they should not be given license. Therefore immigrants and 'natives' (?) should be allowed a license but it seems obvious to me that an illegal immigrant should not.

Jhonny
14th July 2008, 11:27 PM
To be allowed the benefits of a legal system a person must be a legitimate citizen of that place. If they do not belong to the place then they should not be given license. Therefore immigrants and 'natives' (?) should be allowed a license but it seems obvious to me that an illegal immigrant should not.

Chatttownlegend
15th July 2008, 3:18 AM
BS. Can't take them back? You've reduced the spawn of these illegals to unwanted dogs now? LMAO!

As I said earlier, US citizen children can return with their illegal parents. They do it all the time. The only reason that this lame-o site comes up is that a few hundred deportees whine about what a cruel decision they had to make to keep their child in the US while they returned to their country.

You obviously don't work for ICE, or you have a desk job if you don't know about the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. I'll give you some links on it so maybe you will learn something about what you do.

http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/docs/welfare_reform_law.pdf
http://www.datacenter.org/programs/justicedetained.pdf
http://immigrantdetention.blogspot.com/2007/11/breast-feeding-mother-separated-from.html
Oh and Cutie when you wanted to learn how to research the Immigration stuff, you could always use google.
And actually read them.

The slavery argument has been getting on my nerves. You can't compare me to a slave owner when I'm advocating for something the Immigrants want. A slave owner raped and killed their slaves while I think that the immigrants deserve to stay in America.


Yet the innovation brought about in the cotton industry at the end of the Civil War brought about a Industrial Revolution in the south and actually helped them.

No that was brought by investments into the south by northern investors. The cotton industry relied on sharecropping and tenant farming. That was not innovation. I will admit it did get industrialized, but not nearly as far along as the north was. Plus the only reason that happened was because it was ruined during the civil war.


Since when do Economists, such as what you've proclaimed yourself to be, care about humane treatments? It's all 'bout the Benjamins, G!

1. Human rights watch isn't a group of economists
2. I never said i was an economist, just that you know nothing about economics.
3. Economists aren't all rich its just their job to research economics, and don't ever say It's all 'bout the Benjamins, G!


One word - LIBERIA.

Yes liberia was a former slave haven. but many former slaves had no place to go. And read about it, many slaves didn't have anywhere to go, and though some did walk or go on a boat somewhere, many stayed in the south. Otherwise sharecropping tenant farming, which was not a bunch of white people getting mistreated, or other historic events evolving african americans in the south never would have happened. There were still many black people in the south.




First I would suggest learning how to speak English. Second yes my ancestors are immigrants, they also immigrated over here LEGALLY! They followed the system and came in the same way millions of Americans have. And thus they got the rights and freedoms that they deserved. Why? Becuase they came in here LEGALLY

There weren't immigration laws then. So technically though they did come here legally, they came for the same reasons as the illegal immigrants, actually they might as well be the same people. And comparing an illegal immigrant to a robber or drug dealer because they broke the law, is the same as comparing your ancestors to a drug dealer. The only difference was that there weren't the same laws. But you think laws about immigration should never change so i might as well shut up. And don't rag on kingortiz because he isn't using proper grammar. Plus your ancestors are just as bad as the illegal immigrants.


Last time I checked a map, it was.
San Diego doesn't account for the 300 million Americans. Border states are a small part of America

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
Look at those statistics. Those are the total costs of immigrants in services they use. Now remember they paid 9 billion dollars in social security taxes alone in 2004 according to The Social Security Administration, also remember that they contribute 428 billion dollars to the economy, which though nobody will believe because I don't know exactly what he used to make those findings. But I do know they weren't made up. Nor is it even debated amongst economists, and it is used by major news sources. In other words people just don't want to believe it, I don't blindly follow it. It was from a completely legit economist and news source. But everybody else doesn't even know what effects Illegal immigration has on the people of New England, or the Atlantic states, the Northwestern states, the Midwest, the southeast, they only know the effects of the border states, and even on that you people don't know it well.


There are other classifications and temporary visas that people can apply for. You just find one whiny website and proclaim yourself to be the Immigration Master.

Do you know how temporary visas work, do you know anything about it, I'm not an Immigration Master, I'm just not an idiot. 200,000 temporary workers are allowed in per year. Thats not nearly enough for them to wait in line to get one. Plus those don't allow you to become a permanant resident. Green Cards on the other hand do, but those are expensive. And immigrants aren't the poor sad faces we once saw in the early 1900's now they are frequently rich businessmen.


I know of a lot of teens that would like to find some kind of summer job that did not involve "Would you like fries with that?".

Teens can't work full time and they won't work in all of the places illegal immigrants do. Immigrants can't be replaced by a bunch of teenagers. Most immigrants work outside of service. Also only 21% of them work in the service industry. I don't think you can ever get millions of teens to step up to take the place of one of the most important parts of the US workforce.


The good would be that we had finally thrown off Illegal Immigration. Then again of course there are people like you who would believe that is a bad thing, just like there were people like you in the past that thought throwing off slavery was a bad thing.'

If you seriously think that ending illegal immigration is the same as ending slavery then you are a sick human being. What is the good reason behind ending illegal immigration? Is it because they have the word illegal in their names or is it because they aren't white. As much as I hate playing the race card, you only dislike it because you are a nativist. You sit there comparing me to a slave owner yet you are the one who thinks illegal immigration is like slavery that giving people more freedom than they had in their previous country is the same as slavery, where black people were raped, tortured, worked to death, and were treated worse than animals. You've resorted to saying that they are the same as drug dealers, and robbers. Why because they broke a law. Law breakers aren't all bad. Look at Gandhi, the Civil Rights movement, and instances of civil disobedience. They broke the law but are they bad people. By no means am I saying Illegal Immigration is as noble as a cause as the Civil Rights movement was but they both were done by good people who broke the law. And if you seriously think just because somebody does something that is currently illegal that we can't protect them from the past laws then you must be crazy. People broke the laws of the Nazis and protected Jews, and they weren't enforcing the law, but were they wrong. Though these are extreme examples they just prove a point that enforcing laws isn't always justice.


Its called attrition, not all 12 Million will leave at one time.


Yes but the costs of 94 billion dollars is still a lot even if it was over a 5 year time period. There will be court costs for every immigrant which isn't even factored into the 94 billion dollar cost.


So let me get this straight, outside of San Diago everything is just hunkie dorie? This is a problem you already had with the 2002 statistics, you falsely believe that it is just a anonmly that everything is okay except for that one time. Problem is as I have already proven, its not just confined to San Diago, the problem has spread to hospitals all across California.

But lets look outside of hospitals in California, over in Arizona hospitals are going further and further in debt becuase of Illegals.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1918596/posts

And even further, Texas hospitals are having to cut down on care for Illegals becuase the costs are just getting too high.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3943154

Should I keep going?

Please keep going, until I see what the NATIONWIDE COSTS are I'll keep bothering you, Arizona and California are not the whole nation, border states aren't either. And though the border states hospitals are closing, that doesn't mean people are dying in the streets and the economy is in shambles. In Los Angeles violent crime is down 7%. The world isn't being destroyed by illegal immigrants. But most of the nation is being benefited. there are always winners and losers in the economy. You can't have everybody happy. But if most people are then thats good. Look outside Texas and California, everybody is effected by the illegal immigrants just most in good ways.


He can also cheery pick and choose to ignore certain statistics.

As can your hospitals or your cities. Its all the same, a statistic is a statistic all are done by humans. Whether its by a federal organization or an economist, they both could pick what statistics to use. But the person who did my statistic doesn't get paid to please people like government officials are. He gets paid to provide true stats. All statistics are based on facts. Something that you fail to realize, unless they are actually proven to be a hoax or are just impossible COUGH COUGH 95% of outstanding warrants, then they should be taken at face value. If you can trust a statistic that is impossible and a hoax, then you should be able to trust my statistics. Especially because with the violent crime down 7% I doubt such a statistic would be possible.


And this is different from other first world nations how...?

It doesn't matter how other first world nations act its about that the illegal immigrants can't get without doing it illegally. We don't allow enough temporary workers for that to happen.


How hard do you have to work for a family based petition? Make sure you sleep with the right person? Geez...that's gotta be tough.

Yeah because everybody knows the best way to get a visa is to give some guy head. And wow that says a lot about your moral fortitude.


They also use them from stats provided by the sources. Now I am not saying all economists are wrong, I just want to know the facts he used to come to that conclusion. Something YOU have not provided.

I don't have those, now rag on me but I do know he isn't a serious economist if he sits at home making up statistics. Thats not his job. So when it comes down to it, you really need to learn how to trust statistics considering you believe Heather Mac Donald's statistics.


Well first the person who presented this information was Heather Mac Donald, the article I posted was just using it, and wasn't the original researcher for those numbers. The original source of those numbers, Heather Mac Donald is a think tank researcher on Illegal Immigrants based out of New York, the numbers come from a testimony she gave Congress.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/h...ld04-13-05.htm

Now just for fun, Snopes does have a article on it, and while she does not site a source for her information. There is another source that is sited for simular information.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

The other source/information comes from 1985, where nearly 50% of warrents involved Mexican Nationals who have escaped the country. Now unless you plan to tell me that the number of Illegals suddenly went down in LA between 1985 and now, then it wouldn't be such a leap to say that the number has gone up as the number of illegals in LA increases dramatically. Now could it be lower than 90%? Possibly. Could Heather be right in her testimony to Congress? Just as possible.


So in other words you criticize me for having a statistic that isn't even debated by anybody, is not a hoax, and is used by USA Today and was completely undisputed, until you heard it. Yet you can believe a statistic that is called a hoax, by the LA Times, is based on a study from 1985, and it doesn't even mean jack considering illegal immigrants didn't do 95% of the homicides, and she doesn't explain the welfare statistics, (Illegal immigrants can only use food stamps for their kids) nor did she cite her sources for a claim thats completely outrageous. The article you did use though was by a medical lawyer. That was what I was talking about you never provided the original source. And she lied before congress. Or at the least didn't tell them everything, yet you still trust her.

Also if you add up the services they use, which i provided from the CIS it doesn't even add up to the 9 billion dollars they pay in social security taxes per year or the 94 billion dollars it would cost to deport them and especially the 428 billion dollars the immigrants contribute to the GDP. Also take time to read my articles like the one on Green Cards and stuff, it actually says how who gets into the country, though it doesn't talk about temporary workers that number is still only at 200,000 people. So please take time and research issues like the 1996 immigration acts, don't just run to Cutie, who probably doesn't do well in her job if she doesn't know the laws she enforces. I don't mean to be a jerk but Cutie probably doesn't work for ICE if she doesn't know about it. And Cutie what do you do for them?

weavillemaster18
15th July 2008, 5:14 PM
i have to say i think illegal immegrants should be able to own rivers licenes

Cutiebunny
16th July 2008, 10:23 AM
You obviously don't work for ICE, or you have a desk job if you don't know about the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. I'll give you some links on it so maybe you will learn something about what you do.

http://www.ovw.usdoj.gov/docs/welfare_reform_law.pdf
http://www.datacenter.org/programs/justicedetained.pdf
http://immigrantdetention.blogspot.com/2007/11/breast-feeding-mother-separated-from.html
Oh and Cutie when you wanted to learn how to research the Immigration stuff, you could always use google.
And actually read them.

I enforce IIRAIRA every day. I love that it gives me the power to remove people from the country. Prior to IIRAIRA, we had to hope that the aliens would choose to withdraw their application for entry. Now we get to slap them with a 5 year bar if they choose not to.

Plus, there's lots of other wonderful charges too! 10 year bars! Permanent bans! Love it, love it, love it....!!!

So, yes, deary, don't speak what you know naught about.






1. Human rights watch isn't a group of economists
2. I never said i was an economist, just that you know nothing about economics.
3. Economists aren't all rich its just their job to research economics, and don't ever say It's all 'bout the Benjamins, G!

I love to make a mockery of Economists. If they'd only gotten laid more in college....

You've based most of your argument on the economics of illegal immigration. If you're going to do so, you have to ignore the humane factor. Being humane costs money.




Yes liberia was a former slave haven. but many former slaves had no place to go. And read about it, many slaves didn't have anywhere to go, and though some did walk or go on a boat somewhere, many stayed in the south. Otherwise sharecropping tenant farming, which was not a bunch of white people getting mistreated, or other historic events evolving african americans in the south never would have happened. There were still many black people in the south.

The US offered to repatriate the blacks to Africa and the majority chose not to.






There weren't immigration laws then.

Cough...QUOTAS...Cough.

Cough...Public Health Laws....Cough.


So technically though they did come here legally,

The debate is over....


they came for the same reasons as the illegal immigrants, actually they might as well be the same people.

No, they didn't. The immigrants of the past actually wanted to BE Americans. Today's crop just want to milk the system. They are loyal to the country that they came from.



And comparing an illegal immigrant to a robber or drug dealer because they broke the law,

They both have comitted a misdeamnor. In the eyes of the law, what is the difference?


is the same as comparing your ancestors to a drug dealer.

The side of my family that was from another country came here LEGALLY. They didn't enter as visitors and then try to adjust status by marrying some man 40 years older than them just to get a green card.


The only difference was that there weren't the same laws.

Boo Hoo. Life isn't fair.


But you think laws about immigration should never change so i might as well shut up.

I think our laws should become less forgiving. I want harsher penalties so that it forces these people to stay in their countries and fight for their rights there rather than leeching off my country and the systems that I pay for.


Plus your ancestors are just as bad as the illegal immigrants.

You know my ancestors?! Hook a sister up! I wanna know where they stashed the family treasure!


San Diego doesn't account for the 300 million Americans. Border states are a small part of America

California is ranked as the fourth largest economy in the world. But yeah, it's just a small part of America.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
Look at those statistics. Those are the total costs of immigrants in services they use. Now remember they paid 9 billion dollars in social security taxes alone in 2004 according to The Social Security Administration, also remember that they contribute 428 billion dollars to the economy, which though nobody will believe because I don't know exactly what he used to make those findings. But I do know they weren't made up. Nor is it even debated amongst economists, and it is used by major news sources. In other words people just don't want to believe it, I don't blindly follow it. It was from a completely legit economist and news source. But everybody else doesn't even know what effects Illegal immigration has on the people of New England, or the Atlantic states, the Northwestern states, the Midwest, the southeast, they only know the effects of the border states, and even on that you people don't know it well.

Add in education of all the children that our illegals had here. Add in the education of all the illegals here now.



Do you know how temporary visas work, do you know anything about it,

Yes, I do.


I'm not an Immigration Master, I'm just an idiot.

Fixed for accuracy.


200,000 temporary workers are allowed in per year. Thats not nearly enough for them to wait in line to get one.

You're just talking about the H1Bs. There are other temporary work visas that allow people to live here for many years at a time.

The H1B classification is one of the most grossly abused classifications out there. Basically, anyone with a college degree and a US sponsor can get one. It was originally designed to aide the technology industry, but it's served people in occupations such as teaching and secretarial work.


Plus those don't allow you to become a permanant resident.

Duh. You have to adjust your status by filing paperwork.


Green Cards on the other hand do, but those are expensive.

Not really. According to the CIS site, the form to file for a green card is called an I-90, and that costs $545 which include biometric fees.


And immigrants aren't the poor sad faces we once saw in the early 1900's now they are frequently rich businessmen.

Wrong. The wealthy don't want to immigrate here because they have a better standard of living in their countries. It's the poor and sick that do.



Teens can't work full time and they won't work in all of the places illegal immigrants do. Immigrants can't be replaced by a bunch of teenagers. Most immigrants work outside of service. Also only 21% of them work in the service industry. I don't think you can ever get millions of teens to step up to take the place of one of the most important parts of the US workforce.

If you pay them, they will come. Besides, if California has its way and makes it mandatory that all 8th graders learn Algebra I, I expect to see a lot more dropouts in the future.


If you seriously think that ending illegal immigration is the same as ending slavery then you are a sick human being.

If you think that it isn't, then you're a stupid human being.


What is the good reason behind ending illegal immigration?

See the entire thread.


Is it because they have the word illegal in their names or is it because they aren't white.
Finally! He's pulled the race card!!


As much as I hate playing the race card, you only dislike it because you are a nativist.

And there's something wrong with this....?


You sit there comparing me to a slave owner yet you are the one who thinks illegal immigration is like slavery that giving people more freedom than they had in their previous country is the same as slavery, where black people were raped, tortured, worked to death, and were treated worse than animals.

The people who were tortured come in to the US LEGALLY as refugees. They have actually sufferred and I don't mind having them in the country because they went through the proper channels to get those documents.




You've resorted to saying that they are the same as drug dealers, and robbers. Why because they broke a law.

A misdemeanor is a misdemeanor.


Law breakers aren't all bad. Look at Gandhi, the Civil Rights movement, and instances of civil disobedience. They broke the law but are they bad people.

Apples. Oranges.


By no means am I saying Illegal Immigration is as noble as a cause as the Civil Rights movement was but they both were done by good people who broke the law.

So why are you debating this with me?


And if you seriously think just because somebody does something that is currently illegal that we can't protect them from the past laws then you must be crazy.

Nope. Just a law abiding American who clings to her guns.


People broke the laws of the Nazis and protected Jews, and they weren't enforcing the law, but were they wrong. Though these are extreme examples they just prove a point that enforcing laws isn't always justice.

Apples and Oranges, kid. The mass extermination of millions of people has nothing to do with the mass repatriation of millions of illegals.





Please keep going, until I see what the NATIONWIDE COSTS are I'll keep bothering you, Arizona and California are not the whole nation, border states aren't either. And though the border states hospitals are closing, that doesn't mean people are dying in the streets and the economy is in shambles. In Los Angeles violent crime is down 7%. The world isn't being destroyed by illegal immigrants. But most of the nation is being benefited. there are always winners and losers in the economy. You can't have everybody happy. But if most people are then thats good. Look outside Texas and California, everybody is effected by the illegal immigrants just most in good ways.

So, the man that was shot by a Laotian immigrant in Minnesota last winter was affected by an illegal immigrant in a good way?






It doesn't matter how other first world nations act its about that the illegal immigrants can't get without doing it illegally. We don't allow enough temporary workers for that to happen.

Why should the US be any different than the rest of the first world nations? Do you have any idea how restricting immigration laws are in Japan? How about Spain? I love theses countries for it!




Yeah because everybody knows the best way to get a visa is to give some guy head.

Actually, everyone does. That's why you see 20 year women from the Philippines and Vietnam hook up with an 80 year old man.


And wow that says a lot about your moral fortitude.

It says a lot more about my experience in the field.





So in other words you criticize me for having a statistic that isn't even debated by anybody, is not a hoax, and is used by USA Today and was completely undisputed, until you heard it. Yet you can believe a statistic that is called a hoax, by the LA Times, is based on a study from 1985, and it doesn't even mean jack considering illegal immigrants didn't do 95% of the homicides, and she doesn't explain the welfare statistics, (Illegal immigrants can only use food stamps for their kids) nor did she cite her sources for a claim thats completely outrageous. The article you did use though was by a medical lawyer. That was what I was talking about you never provided the original source. And she lied before congress. Or at the least didn't tell them everything, yet you still trust her.

You're gonna use a statistic that's over 2 decades old?!


Also if you add up the services they use, which i provided from the CIS it doesn't even add up to the 9 billion dollars they pay in social security taxes per year or the 94 billion dollars it would cost to deport them and especially the 428 billion dollars the immigrants contribute to the GDP. Also take time to read my articles like the one on Green Cards and stuff, it actually says how who gets into the country, though it doesn't talk about temporary workers that number is still only at 200,000 people.

Take into account the points I've brought up in my analysis too as to the services that these illegals and their spawn require.


So please take time and research issues like the 1996 immigration acts

Yawn.


don't just run to Cutie, who probably doesn't do well in her job if she doesn't know the laws she enforces.

O RLY.


I don't mean to be a jerk but Cutie probably doesn't work for ICE if she doesn't know about it.

Loose lips sink ships.


And Cutie what do you do for them?

Nunya bizness.

AEROBLASTER
16th July 2008, 10:46 AM
I wouldnt like it but if they did, illegal immigrants would probably always drive the speed limit in order not to get in wreck and have to show their insurance. Although they might go too slow and be too safe.

PsiUmbreon
17th July 2008, 9:31 AM
Guys, tone down the personal attacks. Things like "you're stupid" or "this demonstrates how idiotic you are" etc. can easily lead to flame wars... which lead to infractions for all ;)

D!3g0
28th July 2008, 6:54 AM
We're not going to bring our standard of living down to the hell hole of Mexico just to send these criminals back. Not to mention there are other reasons many of them come over here.



.

Why the hell did you call Mexico a hell hole??

And why do you guys call them "Aliens"?

i didn´t know you guys were so racist >_>

at least i can go to everywhere i want(thanks passaport lol)

BigLutz
28th July 2008, 6:57 AM
Why the hell did you call Mexico a hell hole??

Becuase beyond the tourest destinations, alot of Mexico ( Especially Border towns ) is a hell hole.


And why do you guys call them "Aliens"?

It's a term refering to people that are not native to the country.


i didn´t know you guys were so racist >_>

I have nothing against Mexicans, I just have something against Illegal Immigrants. Believing some one is racist just becuase they do not like Illegal Immigrants is utterly blind and wrong.

bobjr
28th July 2008, 6:59 AM
And why do you guys call them "Aliens"?


You do know aliens aren't just little green men in spaceships right?

What I don't get is why people would think it's alright to reward illegal immigrants with drivers licenses after they knowingly broke the law.

D!3g0
28th July 2008, 7:23 AM
Becuase beyond the tourest destinations, alot of Mexico ( Especially Border towns ) is a hell hole.

Not alot

It's a term refering to people that are not native to the country.

Oook i stil dont like it

I have nothing against Mexicans, I just have something against Illegal Immigrants. Believing some one is racist just becuase they do not like Illegal Immigrants is utterly blind and wrong.

Ok i was a little scared jeje coz my cousins friends are REALLY nice to us well at least when i go to Las vegas...and the people over there(Las Vegas) are really nice to mi family

i love my life here in Mexico is good i would like to live over there but not because is necesary for me just because i like the US and mos of their people

But sometimes they NEED to go to the US because they feel like they are not getting as much money as they would like and sometimes they need to go just so there family can survive

by the way my uncle(i dont know if i spell that right) has a legal work where his the boss of..um i dont know how to call it in english but is something with construction xD

bobjr
28th July 2008, 7:24 AM
But sometimes they NEED to go to the US because they feel like they are not getting as much money as they would like and sometimes they need to go just so there family can survive


And so they can mooch off of America.

BigLutz
28th July 2008, 7:26 AM
But sometimes they NEED to go to the US because they feel like they are not getting as much money as they would like and sometimes they need to go just so there family can survive

And you know what? There are thousands of families all over the world that "NEED" to go to the United States. Those families are not lucky enough to share a border with the United States. Those families have to wait years and years so that they can get the proper documentation and work to come over here. Why should one family, be able to come over here by breaking the law, while the other is forced to sit for a long time so that they could follow the law?

D!3g0
28th July 2008, 7:27 AM
And so they can mooch off of America.

mm I dont know.....what does that word mean!! sorry theres been along time ago since i write or speak english xD

Well BigLutz i do agree that the Mexicans should become citicenz legaly(spell it wrong i think) my uncle did it so if he can so other person can

BigLutz
28th July 2008, 7:41 AM
Well BigLutz i do agree that the Mexicans should become citicenz legaly(spell it wrong i think) my uncle did it so if he can so other person can

Then you're uncle is a great and truely amazing person, and its great that he became a part of this country.


really i didnt know that people here were so racist(becuase i considernot likeing other people because of where they come from or beacuase they are illegal ,racist)
no offensce to anybody on how they think

Then you really need to learn the definition of racist. Hating people becuase they comitted a crime that has nothing to do with skin color isn't racist. I and I am sure everyone else, welcomes legal immigrants into this country.


but i think that they deserve a drivers liscence becuz first its the legal way to drive and if the country doesnt want anything illegal then they should give them liscenes(sorry for my spelling)

How about giving them nothing except the punishment they deserve for breaking the law?


and u shouldnt say such mean things to mexican or latino illegal immirgrants becuase u dont know what they have been hrough to work everyday to pay a ill or to feed their children

Everyone has a sob story, alot of people from elsewhere in the world want to get here to feed their family. Thing is they are forced to come the legal way. To put it bluntly, while everyone has problems, only few actually turn to crime. And yes, crossing the border illegally IS a crime.


u dont know how hard their life is or how much they have been through

Everyone has a hard life, my parents are having a hard life right now, should I go rob a store? Or break into some one else's house?


and i have been to Mexico and have seen hat a beautiful and wonderous place it is
and when i say beautiful i mean MEXICO not the governmet or the mafia

Been to the Border Much? Or the many poor towns that dot the Mexican Landscape?


and as a Mexican born and raised in USA i think that everybody has the right to be free

Because isnt the U.S. the land of FREEDOM????

It is, but there is also a process in which you can come in so that it can be fair to everyone that comes here.

bobjr
28th July 2008, 7:43 AM
really i didnt know that people here were so racist(becuase i considernot likeing other people because of where they come from or beacuase they are illegal ,racist)
no offensce to anybody on how they think


Sorry, that's not racism.


but i think that they deserve a drivers liscence becuz first its the legal way to drive and if the country doesnt want anything illegal then they should give them liscenes(sorry for my spelling)

They can drive legally when they come to the country legally. But that's just my opinion.


and u shouldnt say such mean things to mexican or latino illegal immirgrants becuase u dont know what they have been hrough to work everyday to pay a ill or to feed their children

Sometimes the truth hurts. And life ain't fair, don't you know?


u dont know how hard their life is or how much they have been through

Still not an excuse to break the law.


and i have been to Mexico and have seen hat a beautiful and wonderous place it is
and when i say beautiful i mean MEXICO not the governmet or the mafia

That's not what the argument is about.


and as a Mexican born and raised in USA i think that everybody has the right to be free

That doesn't give them the right to break the law.


Because isnt the U.S. the land of FREEDOM????

If you come here legally it is.

GrizzlyB
28th July 2008, 7:50 AM
really i didnt know that people here were so racist(becuase i considernot likeing other people because of where they come from or beacuase they are illegal ,racist)
no offensce to anybody on how they think

but i think that they deserve a drivers liscence becuz first its the legal way to drive and if the country doesnt want anything illegal then they should give them liscenes(sorry for my spelling)

and u shouldnt say such mean things to mexican or latino illegal immirgrants becuase u dont know what they have been hrough to work everyday to pay a ill or to feed their children

u dont know how hard their life is or how much they have been through

and i have been to Mexico and have seen hat a beautiful and wonderous place it is
and when i say beautiful i mean MEXICO not the governmet or the mafia

and as a Mexican born and raised in USA i think that everybody has the right to be free

Because isnt the U.S. the land of FREEDOM????

How can you possibly consider liking/not liking somebody based on what they have done racist?

And regardless of whether or not they have licenses, it'd still be illegal for them to be in the US, making it an entirely moot point to give them licenses.

Nobody cares what they have been through, the fact that they are illegal takes precedence over that.

And it's a little hard to guarantee freedoms to people who aren't documented in any way, shape, or form, isn't it? Even freedom has to have its limits.

Malice Mizer
28th July 2008, 1:36 PM
I say give them the licenses. Then arrest them when they come to pick them up.
Win-Win situation.

Cutiebunny
28th July 2008, 8:46 PM
I say give them the licenses. Then arrest them when they come to pick them up.
Win-Win situation.

It'll work for a day until families of the illegal immigrants start to complain that their relatives never returned. Then the ACLU will jump in with their lawsuits, citing that such policies are cruel to the illegals.

The funny thing is that when you put the ACLU people in foriegn countries that aren't very lenient when it comes to human rights, they're always the first ones to protest that they're American and therefore, 'special'.

silvertiles
1st August 2008, 2:43 AM
Becuase beyond the tourest destinations, alot of Mexico ( Especially Border towns ) is a hell hole.

Bahahah. This made my day. A HELL HOLE? Give me a break. Whatever happened to the appreciation of defined culture? Hot dogs, Britney Spears, and nucular weapons don't sound like culture to me.

BigLutz
1st August 2008, 2:47 AM
Bahahah. This made my day. A HELL HOLE? Give me a break. Whatever happened to the appreciation of defined culture? Hot dogs, Britney Spears, and nucular weapons don't sound like culture to me.

Defined Culture is fine, but when you have a insane amount of poverty in the country, and gangs running many towns ( Especially Border Towns ). It isn't exactly Disney World.

silvertiles
1st August 2008, 2:57 AM
Defined Culture is fine, but when you have a insane amount of poverty in the country, and gangs running many towns ( Especially Border Towns ). It isn't exactly Disney World.

Most little "gangsters" or "cholos" causing havoc (seriously, LOL) nowadays are citizens, and are a mockery to the rest of the Hispanic community that wishes they could get the rights that these people have been handed. Nothing but punks. I don't agree with giving "illegals" licenses. I do laugh at anyone who believes in the possibility of the government completely wiping out the illegal community. Not going to happen :]

freakeh eevee
16th August 2008, 9:27 AM
Uhm... if we know that they are in this country illegally... then why do we let them do anything at all? If they're breaking the law, and we know where they are, then we should deport them immediately... if we can't do that because of some faulty part of the constitution, just take away all their rights except life liberty and the pursuit of happiness v-v"

Ethan
16th August 2008, 11:07 AM
This thread is over a month old. Please don't bump topics. :<