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milo05
9th September 2009, 12:10 AM
Ok, so, i recently started to RNG abuse, and, i told my friends about it, and they say "It's hacking" and i say "Why?" and they say "Is almost the same as pokesav" and started discussing, and i decided to make a tread about this...

So, how you consider it, hacking or not?

javivaldez
9th September 2009, 12:23 AM
i dont cosider it hacking and first post

Orangefeather
9th September 2009, 12:28 AM
It doesn't use pokesav, anyone can do it, you don't have to buy a hacking device for it, and any RNG'd pokemon will pass a hack test with flying colors. It is in no way hacking at all.

ARB
9th September 2009, 12:29 AM
I'm sorry, what's RNG?

ZanderR110
9th September 2009, 12:37 AM
"Random" Number Generator

Once you figure out how it works, you can abuse the false random factor to obtain better IVs, shiny Pokemon, etc.

Lord Scalgon
9th September 2009, 1:31 AM
http://www.bingegamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/phoenix-wright-objection.jpg

It's just changing the date and time, really. It's not an external use, since it's a part of the DS. Therefore, I rule this method as legit.

Hell, I even do RNG abusing myself.

BTW, look at the Japanese finalist and his team of shinies in the VGC. I'm pretty sure he RNG abused to obtain what he has as of today. Nintendo officials deemed his Pokemon legit, so is it considered 'hacking'?

No.

I rest my case.

Pokemon-Dratini
9th September 2009, 1:39 AM
Rng is not hacking, anyone can do it aslong as you have enough patience to figure it out, all it is is using math to get a shiny (ok wellthats a very simplistic way of doing it) unfortunately i have no amount of patience for it

Rakurai
9th September 2009, 1:54 AM
It's not hacking, but I don't use it for the same reason that I don't clone.

Which is simply that it's a part of the game that was never meant to be exploited.

Pokemon-Dratini
9th September 2009, 1:57 AM
It's not hacking, but I don't use it for the same reason that I don't clone.

Which is simply that it's a part of the game that was never meant to be exploited.

hmm that is a veryy good point O.o but unfortunatly i admit to using the cloning glitch

mattj
9th September 2009, 2:23 AM
I used RNG'd pokes at Worlds 09 in San Diego. They passed the "Official TPCi Hack Check" with flying colors. So did my pokes with straight up hacked parents. :P All the "hack check" does it compare your poke to a list of what's allowable "in game" so that you don't have a sableye with wonderguard or something "broken" like that. For example, it caught Alakapimp's (smogon) poke that had 512 EVs, but it didn't catch all of our (collective) pokes that were either pokesav'd or bred from hacked parents.

I said all that just to say this...the "official TPCi hack check" doesn't mean crap. RNG abuse uses an external device (Mingnot's RNG Reporter) to acheive results that are impossible within normal game play. Nobody's ever gonna SR that many times to get hex flawless pokes.

So, is it "hacking"? Probably.

Is it "wrong". Meh. Probably not. :p

darkgamerGS
9th September 2009, 2:37 AM
Hacking or not, it defeats the point of shinies being incredibly rare altogether, making them even more pointless than they already are... a color change... that's it? That's not a very exciting reward for what should be an incredibly rare version of Pokemon, and the RNG doesn't seem very hackish, and this is coming from someone that hates hacking games, but it makes shinies even less worth getting than they already are... I mean no offense to anyone, but... just had to get that off my chest. Sorry. ^_^;

mattj
9th September 2009, 2:48 AM
Hacking or not, it defeats the point of shinies being incredibly rare altogether, making them even more pointless than they already are... a color change... that's it? That's not a very exciting reward for what should be an incredibly rare version of Pokemon, and the RNG doesn't seem very hackish, and this is coming from someone that hates hacking games, but it makes shinies even less worth getting than they already are... I mean no offense to anyone, but... just had to get that off my chest. Sorry. ^_^;

Totally agreed. Now off to RNG some shinys... :)

Bank$
9th September 2009, 5:24 AM
I read an article on Smogon about this and watched a couple of youtube videos... I don't understand any of it. I don't know how people figure this stuff out.

mattj
9th September 2009, 5:29 AM
I read an article on Smogon about this and watched a couple of youtube videos... I don't understand any of it. I don't know how people figure this stuff out.

I met the dude who programed the RNG Reporter when I was at Worlds. He goes by Mingnot over on smogon. I thought he'd be some uubernerdgenious or something, but he was just like your normal guy with a wife and 2 kids. :)

Squirtleismyhomeboy
9th September 2009, 5:38 AM
is it just soft resetting to get a shiny?, does anyone kno how this stuff works or where i can find more info on it, i never heard of it before

suudsu
9th September 2009, 5:43 AM
I met the dude who programed the RNG Reporter when I was at Worlds. He goes by Mingnot over on smogon. I thought he'd be some uubernerdgenious or something, but he was just like your normal guy with a wife and 2 kids. :)

What is Worlds? Tournament?

mattj
9th September 2009, 5:57 AM
What is Worlds? Tournament?

The 2009 Pokemon World Championships. I played in the videogame World Championships. Won a free trip to San Diego to boot!

Oh, more info on what RNG is...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52180 Yeah, if you want to really simplify it RNGabuse is just SRing for shinys and good IVs, but there's this guy "Mingnot" who made a computer program that tells you how to get pokemon with specific IVs and/or shinyness. I'm actually RNGing a TR Regice at this moment. Something like 31/23/31/31/30/0 Relaxed nature. :)

Tiomasta
9th September 2009, 7:27 AM
Personally, I think it is hacking, but it all depends on the eyes of the one who speaks, it's not just plain cheating for 999 stats or something.

One weird thing is that some people say that it isn't hacking, then saying that it's because everyone can do it. By that logic, hiding an ace on your sleeve while playing cards won't be cheating because everyone can do it, which is not right.


Which is simply that it's a part of the game that was never meant to be exploited.

This.

SkittyOnWailord
9th September 2009, 1:50 PM
Well at leased some of the Pokemon used in the WCS were caught/hatched with the RNG and Nintendo allowed them. So there's your answer. Whether it's moraly correct is a differant question though, and you'll get a differant answer from everyone you ask.

Troggy
9th September 2009, 8:28 PM
There's nothing wrong with RNG. However, when it gets to the point where people have RNG'd flawless teams, and then clone those and trade them other people, anyone who can't RNG might as well hack their team just to remain on level ground.

Dragoon952
9th September 2009, 10:34 PM
It is exploiting a loophole more than hacking.

That being said, if it was meant to be exploited, why have IV's in the first place? Taken to it's natural end it virtually eliminates the purpsoe of IV's if they are 31's all around all the time in competitive play. Short of determining Hidden Power or effecting an attack like Gyro Ball, if everyone has 31 IV's there is really no purpose to the stat.

Arande
10th September 2009, 5:14 AM
SoW pretty much answered it if nintendo allowed RNG'd at worlds.

Personally I don't see it as hacking. It's just understanding how the RNG works and using it. You aren't using any device to force a change in the code, so that souldn't be an issue.

understanding the RNG of a game and calculating what the game will generate =/= altering game code to force the results you want.

Tiomasta
10th September 2009, 5:36 AM
It's just understanding how the RNG works and using it. You aren't using any device to force a change in the code, so that souldn't be an issue.

understanding the RNG of a game and calculating what the game will generate =/= altering game code to force the results you want.

"Oh no sir, I'm just punching some defenseless tied-up guy with my bare hands, it isn't torture because I'm not using a gun or anything".

You are not "understanding" what the game will generate, you're making the game give you what you want by force, it's like messing with the game's numbers to make all your moves critical hits.
RNGing was never, ever meant to be known and abused, don't talk like it was.

If I seem rude, then I'm sorry.

mattj
10th September 2009, 6:18 AM
"Oh no sir, I'm just punching some defenseless tied-up guy with my bare hands, it isn't torture because I'm not using a gun or anything".

You are not "understanding" what the game will generate, you're making the game give you what you want by force, it's like messing with the game's numbers to make all your moves critical hits.
RNGing was never, ever meant to be known and abused, don't talk like it was.

If I seem rude, then I'm sorry.

I must concur completely with the poster above.

*ahem*

Anybody want to see my new RNG'd Regice? ;D Just got it tonight! Hit my seed on the first try and actually managed to count to 289 (journal flips that is!)

It's...
Relaxed (+Def -Spd)
31/23/31/31/30/0
At L50 w/252 HP 252 Def that would be...
187 66 167 120 220 49

I'm thinking of giving him a Chesto and trying...Blizzard/Charge Beam/Rest/Sleeptalk.

An excelent Bulky TR poke, especially when paired with a TR Abomasnow ;D

Arande
10th September 2009, 1:47 PM
"Oh no sir, I'm just punching some defenseless tied-up guy with my bare hands, it isn't torture because I'm not using a gun or anything".

You are not "understanding" what the game will generate, you're making the game give you what you want by force, it's like messing with the game's numbers to make all your moves critical hits.
RNGing was never, ever meant to be known and abused, don't talk like it was.

If I seem rude, then I'm sorry.

You aren't forcing the game to act any differently than normal. All you really are doing is picking the result you want. Shiny eggs for example: The gmae generates the eggs like normal, all you are doing is advancing the RNG (I don't see how it's wrong to understand "Hey, the RNG advances when I use the coin flip" as that is what it is programmed to do) till you get to the egg frame you want.

Reason I brought up is that there are no devices or anything used to alter the code, which is the definition of hacking.

mattj
10th September 2009, 10:59 PM
Reason I brought up is that there are no devices or anything used to alter the code, which is the definition of hacking.

What about the RNG Reporter? It doesn't alter the code, but you can't abuse the RNG without it.

chrombot
10th September 2009, 11:21 PM
Well at leased some of the Pokemon used in the WCS were caught/hatched with the RNG and Nintendo allowed them. So there's your answer. Whether it's moraly correct is a differant question though, and you'll get a differant answer from everyone you ask.

That's Nintendo's current answer. Maybe they like it, maybe they don't. I don't think that's something they can actually check and enforce. I can't think of a way of how those pokemon would have any kind of red flags of being different. If it's impossible for them to do anything about it, then their opinion will likely, not be shared.
It's absolutely form of a hack. Certainly not the same as others, but it still is one, I'm not sure if it's the right term, but it comes close. It's an exploit, but I'll just call it a hack for now.
People say it's all within the game, well that's not entirely true. You're using a website that's got some hacked information. So, one person hacked the game, learned about the RNG and is sharing the information. The people using the information aren't hacking, but they're benefiting from the results of a hack.
Morally....I dont know. The information is being shared, so everyone can have access to it. The advantage isn't the actually knowledge, because anyone on here will share it with you. I guess you have to decide for yourself. Is the information wide spread enough that you feel comfortable using it in a competitive atmosphere? I have no idea on that one.

AlanL
10th September 2009, 11:21 PM
Hacking? Cheating in any way? No, because no external devices are being used and all code is being executed normally.

It's like camping that one spot on the map that everyone's vulnerable to in a FPS. It's cheap, and many would consider it dishonorable... but it's not cheating.

Whether it's used or not depends on the person and what they consider ethical, but doing it won't get you in any real trouble it looks like.

Arande
11th September 2009, 10:27 AM
What about the RNG Reporter? It doesn't alter the code, but you can't abuse the RNG without it.


Do you plug the RNGreporter into your DS?
Does it communicate with the game at all?
Or does it just run calculations with the info you input (why you need the date, the random shiny, to catch a poke, etc)

You don't really need it, it'd just take you too long to do said calculations by hand. Thus is why we use calculators (referring to all of em, from RNGreporter to the 0-9 +-X/ one for math)

(plus a lot of people have trouble with doing basic math, let alone in hex)

medjaielite
2nd October 2009, 6:34 PM
It is completely hacking.

Sarracenia
2nd October 2009, 7:00 PM
It isn't hacking at all.

You'll find that the only people who say it is hacking are the ones who are rubbish at the game. Like the people who don't even EV train, or don't seek a specific nature to use. Either that or anyone who doesn't know how to RNG.

And if you can't work out how to RNG, you're just dumb and/or lazy. All it takes is a little effort and, if you're after wild-caught stuff, a bit of number-crunching. Nothing hard really.

RNG abuse has completely devalued everything but, let's face it, did 'value' exist in the first place? Anything decent you put up for trade will probably be cloned, and that snotty little kid will still want the world for his untouched neutral natured Latias.

Oh yeah and nice Regice MattJ. I got a second one myself recently. My abused legends list now stands at:

Emerald
Regirock
Regice
Registeel
Kyogre
Groudon
(didn't get Rayquaza because I had no decent options for it)

Platinum
Uxie
Mesprit
Azelf
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Moltres
Cresselia
Darkrai
Shaymin
Heatran
Regigigas
Regirock
Regice
Registeel

So yeah, basically everything. Will be doing a full shiny run of all SS's legends once it's released in English, by which time somebody should've worked out Method K.

Machete
2nd October 2009, 9:45 PM
What about the RNG Reporter? It doesn't alter the code, but you can't abuse the RNG without it.
It's like using a database to know the EVs of a Starly or an IV calculator.


By that logic, hiding an ace on your sleeve while playing cards won't be cheating because everyone can do it, which is not right.

it's like messing with the game's numbers to make all your moves critical hits.
Except that hiding an ace on your sleeve while playing cards or making all your moves critical hits will help you win. RNG abusing is getting something legit but much faster. Once, thanks to the RNG abuse, I got a Shiny Charizard with 31 IVs in Special Attack and Modest nature. I could've got a Pokémon like that if I had bred it, but of course I'm not going to waste my time SRing over a million times just to get it. It won't affect the game, that Charizard can be obtained if you SR over a million times, and therefore, my rival has no right to blame me.

Seriously guys, I don't know why you're all so concerned about what's hacking and what's not. If I hack my game to get a Pokémon with legit stats and moves, why do you even care? I don't have any kind of advantage, and since I only want to fight I don't know why I have to catch/breed thousands of Pokémon just to get one I could get faster. The same with RNG abusing, although you still need to EV train that Pokémon.

But even then, RNG abusing can't be considered hacking. We all can do it, we're not using external devices and we're not making our Pokémon stronger (well, we are, but not stronger than possible). The only arguments here are that "you're not supposed to do it" and "it's hidden therefore it's hacking!". Well, are you supposed to SR? I don't think so. Are you supposed to breed your way to perfection? I don't think so. You could even argue if you're supposed to EV train. But does that mean that we can't do it? Of course not.

When you abuse the RNG you're just using maths to know how you can get a Pokémon faster. I don't know why anyone could possibly be against it.

mattj
2nd October 2009, 11:56 PM
When you abuse the RNG you're just using maths to know how you can get a Pokémon faster. I don't know why anyone could possibly be against it.

Not only are you getting it "faster" you're getting what you absolutely under no conditions could ever get without the RNG Reporter's Help.

No one on earth has enough time in their lives to SR for years in order to get a box full of flawless IV pokes. Yet, I have 2 going on 3 boxes full of them now. There's no way on earth that I'd ever be able to do the math to get them the fast way, or SR for years and years just to get pokes like I have.

I'm not going to beat around the bush about it. It's no different than hacking them straight out of thin air with an AR because I could never have gotten them without the RNG Reporter. The only difference is that it doesn't physically alter the game coding so it'll pass "official TPCi hack checks".

Doesn't mean I'm not going to do it though. :D

Is it cheating? I say yes. Do I care? I say no. :P

wichu
3rd October 2009, 11:59 AM
Not only are you getting it "faster" you're getting what you absolutely under no conditions could ever get without the RNG Reporter's Help.

Man, how do people still think this? It's perfectly possible to do all the RNG calculations by hand, and still get what you want. RNG Reporter just makes it a lot easier.

Besides, you're implying that EV training is also cheating, since it's very unlikely that you figured it out without the aid of the internet.

Shadow Gamer
3rd October 2009, 1:47 PM
I think it's so funny how people are saying that RNG abuse is legit but hacking with an AR isn't. People in the old HACKED POKEMON thread were going at legit hackers throats because they could get the pokemon they wanted, how they wanted, when they wanted it using an AR or pokesav but IMO RNG abuse is the same thing. You're using a device whether it be an AR, Pokesav, the internet, a calculator, to get a pokemon you want the way you want it and a lot faster than normal which is the same thing people with an AR or Pokesav do. But using those is considered hacking? Because those pokemon can get past a hack checker as well. So I think both methods are considered hacking. I don't do any of this but I don't see anything wrong with either method because it's your game and you should be able to do whatever you want with it but don't go around preaching about how your method of attaining pokemon threw a cheating method is more legit then someone else's, because in the end it's all cheating.

Shepard
3rd October 2009, 2:21 PM
Abusing the 'random' number generator is simply reeping the reward of having solved a very intricate mathematical puzzle. It's a natural function of the game that's just been interpolated well enough to be used constructively.

Noctourniquet
3rd October 2009, 3:34 PM
Exploitation =/= Hacking....
Its like saying using EVs to make your Pokémon better at a certain thing is hacking. They are both mechanics that people aren't meant to know about but use anyway. The only difference is that the RNG wasn't intended to be messed with, but oh well. It is by no means hacking. It is simply modifying a game mechanic through somewhat complex methods to produce something you want. The reason why people think its hacking, IMO, is because its complex. I define hacking as using a device to modify the game's coding in order to produce a forced result that would not appear otherwise. i define RNG abuse as an understanding of game mechanics. Is that really hacking?

mattj
3rd October 2009, 4:44 PM
Man, how do people still think this? It's perfectly possible to do all the RNG calculations by hand, and still get what you want. RNG Reporter just makes it a lot easier.

Besides, you're implying that EV training is also cheating, since it's very unlikely that you figured it out without the aid of the internet.

Hey, Wichu, it's MattJ (duh). Listen. I do not think that RNG abuse is wrong. I do it seriously about every day. However, I do think it's no different than whipping it up with an AR. No offence.

If anyone out there can show that they've RNG'd a poke without the use of RNG Reporter (which is an awesome tool that I like and am not bashing) then I will gladly admit that I am wrong and get off it. However, I really don't believe anybody has ever done this.

If I'm wrong, show it, and I'll happily admit it's not "cheating/hacking/whatever".

miloticsavior
3rd October 2009, 6:40 PM
OF Course this is hacking, and of course a bunch of people will say it's not because there a bunch of noobs who are too lazy to iv breed or get there shiny pokemon the hard way. Yes it saves time, but that doesn't justify this bull any more than using pokesav. This takes advantage of the games controlls and allows hackers to use it to their advantage. If the creators of the game would have intended for this crap to be exploited by every one and their grandma who has absolutly no morals, then the creators of the game would have created a guide on how to do this. I'm sure there are other bs ways people try to justify using this, but before they do, they must think to themselves, how does whatever excuse I'm making mean this is NOT hacking. Seriously, this stuff makes me so mad.

Arande
3rd October 2009, 7:57 PM
OF Course this is hacking, and of course a bunch of people will say it's not because there a bunch of noobs who are too lazy to iv breed or get there shiny pokemon the hard way. Yes it saves time, but that doesn't justify this bull any more than using pokesav. This takes advantage of the games controlls and allows hackers to use it to their advantage. If the creators of the game would have intended for this crap to be exploited by every one and their grandma who has absolutly no morals, then the creators of the game would have created a guide on how to do this. I'm sure there are other bs ways people try to justify using this, but before they do, they must think to themselves, how does whatever excuse I'm making mean this is NOT hacking. Seriously, this stuff makes me so mad.

They didn't write a guide on EVing, or IV breeding, does that mean doing those are hacking too? Need to dig up the quote when they where asked "why do you have so many hidden things in a kinds game?"

People keep comparing RNGing to pokesav. How does using an external device that directly alters game code have anything to do with doing math to determine when the game will generate what on it's own?

Let me ask this question: How is it different than hatching 1000 eggs, and getting a shiny that way, then doing math, and realizing the shiny egg is the 1000th? The egg is still generated the same way.

Noctourniquet
3rd October 2009, 8:56 PM
OF Course this is hacking, and of course a bunch of people will say it's not because there a bunch of noobs who are too lazy to iv breed or get there shiny pokemon the hard way. Yes it saves time, but that doesn't justify this bull any more than using pokesav. This takes advantage of the games controlls and allows hackers to use it to their advantage. If the creators of the game would have intended for this crap to be exploited by every one and their grandma who has absolutly no morals, then the creators of the game would have created a guide on how to do this. I'm sure there are other bs ways people try to justify using this, but before they do, they must think to themselves, how does whatever excuse I'm making mean this is NOT hacking. Seriously, this stuff makes me so mad.

So, not wanting to spend hours on end breeding for a shiny pokemon when we actually have lives outside of pokemon = lazy? And RNG has NOTHING to do with pokesav... RNGing does NOT alter the game's coding. It does NOT use an external device. RNG is a game mechanic that people are not meant to know about, like how the game tries to hide EVs and IVs from you, it tries to hide the RNG. Saying its lazy is like saying that its lazy to deliberately breed for a pokemon with 31 IVs in Atk and an Adamant nature, and that you should just rely on luck to get one instead. Then, you should rely on even more luck to accidentally give it 252 Atk EVs. Thats not hacking. Its using game mechanics to make a better pokemon. How is this different?

arceus7
3rd October 2009, 9:08 PM
you make a good point thebluerabbit.

Shadow Gamer
3rd October 2009, 9:33 PM
Abusing the 'random' number generator is simply reeping the reward of having solved a very intricate mathematical puzzle. It's a natural function of the game that's just been interpolated well enough to be used constructively.


Exploitation =/= Hacking....
Its like saying using EVs to make your Pokémon better at a certain thing is hacking. They are both mechanics that people aren't meant to know about but use anyway. The only difference is that the RNG wasn't intended to be messed with, but oh well. It is by no means hacking. It is simply modifying a game mechanic through somewhat complex methods to produce something you want. The reason why people think its hacking, IMO, is because its complex. I define hacking as using a device to modify the game's coding in order to produce a forced result that would not appear otherwise. i define RNG abuse as an understanding of game mechanics. Is that really hacking?


They didn't write a guide on EVing, or IV breeding, does that mean doing those are hacking too? Need to dig up the quote when they where asked "why do you have so many hidden things in a kinds game?"

People keep comparing RNGing to pokesav. How does using an external device that directly alters game code have anything to do with doing math to determine when the game will generate what on it's own?

Let me ask this question: How is it different than hatching 1000 eggs, and getting a shiny that way, then doing math, and realizing the shiny egg is the 1000th? The egg is still generated the same way.


So, not wanting to spend hours on end breeding for a shiny pokemon when we actually have lives outside of pokemon = lazy? And RNG has NOTHING to do with pokesav... RNGing does NOT alter the game's coding. It does NOT use an external device. RNG is a game mechanic that people are not meant to know about, like how the game tries to hide EVs and IVs from you, it tries to hide the RNG. Saying its lazy is like saying that its lazy to deliberately breed for a pokemon with 31 IVs in Atk and an Adamant nature, and that you should just rely on luck to get one instead. Then, you should rely on even more luck to accidentally give it 252 Atk EVs. Thats not hacking. Its using game mechanics to make a better pokemon. How is this different?

To answer all of these I will just say this: You used the internet (which is a device) to find out about all of this stuff and you are manipulating hidden mechanics that all of you say "people aren't meant to know about" within the game to get what you want. Sounds a lot like hacking/cheating to me...

miloticsavior
3rd October 2009, 9:37 PM
@ TheBlueRabbit, I just don't like it when people use this to get a bunch of shiny pokemon with 31 ivs in everything, there must be a line that the users of this method draw when using it. If you cannot see that you are NOT supposed to have all shiny pokemon with 31 ivs in every stat, and can blatently deny this, then clearly you only wish to use this method to your own advantage. Also, I still do not think that RNG abuse is any better than using pokesav or even AR, as you would get the exact same results in "less time", which is what the main excuse for using this method. If you don't want to get a shiny after hours or months of hard work, here is my advice to you DONT GET 1, because you don't need one, and frankly, you don't deserve it.

Arande
3rd October 2009, 9:40 PM
To answer all of these I will just say this: You used the internet (which is a device) to find out about all of this stuff and you are manipulating hidden mechanics that all of you say "people aren't meant to know about" within the game to get what you want. Sounds a lot like hacking/cheating to me...

....Is this a serious post?

Does that mean my aggron is a hack since I saw on the internet it got head smash in HG/SS?

People keep taking the definition "external device" a little too far...

Skiks
3rd October 2009, 9:45 PM
Anyone who knows about evs and srs for IVs and srs for Shinies is already doing the same thing RNG does. Though the method used her is just more tedious the end result is the same.
You don't even need an external device to touch your DP cart to use RNG. RNG does things within the limit of the game. There are even some pokes that can't 31 IVs all across the board iirc. It's not like when you hack a poke and you can set your own rules. Thats hacking. RNG is playing within the rules of the game.

Shadow Gamer
3rd October 2009, 9:48 PM
....Is this a serious post?

Does that mean my aggron is a hack since I saw on the internet it got head smash in HG/SS?

Yes it was a serious post and no finding out what moves a pokemon learns is not hacking because that's not a hidden mechanic within the game and they have pokemon move sets in official nintendo strategy guides, where I've never seen a section covering EV's, IV's, or RNG so...

Skiks
3rd October 2009, 10:09 PM
Yes it was a serious post and no finding out what moves a pokemon learns is not hacking because that's not a hidden mechanic within the game and they have pokemon move sets in official nintendo strategy guides, where I've never seen a section covering EV's, IV's, or RNG so...
Oh great so anyone who battles competitively is hacking. Thanks for proving how closed minded not allowing RNG seems.

Arande
3rd October 2009, 10:12 PM
Didn't mean to come across as rude btw. Just started getting a little frusturated how people are including things like basic calculators as "external devices"

and miloticsavior, I don't have a problem with you not liking it. But saying it's a hack because it generats the same results as hacking, it's like the difference between someone stealing an item, or just buying it. Same result, different method. (said person obtains the item) Or in the case of the games, knowing when the game will generate the shiny with 5 31s, as opposed to forcing it to.

Shadow Gamer
3rd October 2009, 10:36 PM
Oh great so anyone who battles competitively is hacking. Thanks for proving how closed minded not allowing RNG seems.

Well no not everyone, just the people who manipulate EV's, IV's, and abuse RNG because technically it is cheating/hacking. Just because your not using an AR or Pokesav doesn't mean your not doing it...

Noctourniquet
3rd October 2009, 10:37 PM
To answer all of these I will just say this: You used the internet (which is a device) to find out about all of this stuff and you are manipulating hidden mechanics that all of you say "people aren't meant to know about" within the game to get what you want. Sounds a lot like hacking/cheating to me...
Do you EV train and IV breed? If so, then I doubt that you found out how to do it without using the internet. So if you do, and if what you said is true, than are you not hacking?

Kreis
3rd October 2009, 10:37 PM
Well no not everyone, but technically manipulating RNG, EV's, and IV's is cheating/hacking. Just because your not using an AR or Pokesav doesn't mean your not doing it...

According to you it's "technically cheating/hacking," but it's not. Using an external device to directly manipulate the games data is considered/hacking cheating. Should all the Serebiians that use Serebii's EV guide be considered hackers and cheaters?

Shadow Gamer
3rd October 2009, 10:55 PM
Do you EV train and IV breed? If so, then I doubt that you found out how to do it without using the internet. So if you do, and if what you said is true, than are you not hacking?

Read my sig.


According to you it's "technically cheating/hacking," but it's not. Using an external device to manipulate the games data is considered/hacking cheating.

Maybe to you but to me manipulating the game to make it give you what you want is just as bad as putting in a code for the pokemon you want using Pokesav.


Should all the Serebiians that use Serebii's EV guide be considered hackers and cheaters?

Technically yes because they're manipulating something that is supposed to be hidden and not messed around with. They're hidden for a reason and I've yet to see Nintendo or Gamefreak endorse these mechanics or reveal them to the public.

Kreis
3rd October 2009, 10:59 PM
Read my sig.



Maybe to you but to me manipulating the game to make it give you what you want is just as bad as putting in a code for the pokemon you want using Pokesav.[/SIZE]



Technically yes because they're manipulating something that is supposed to be hidden and not messed around with. There hidden for a reason.

Incase you haven't realized, there are places in the game that help you check your EVs and IVs. For example, in Sunnyshore City there is a person that gives you a ribbon if you have 510 Evs. If they're meant to be hidden, why is GameFreak giving us a ribbon for cheating/hacking? I can't remember about the IV checker, but there's a person in a game that mentions your IVs or something similar.


Event Pokemon are hidden. In-game events to be specific. I used Wi-Fi to activate a hidden event, am I a hacker/cheater? Are breeders hackers too? Are people who use the ability synchronize hackers as well?

the elite trainer
3rd October 2009, 11:00 PM
According to you it's "technically cheating/hacking," but it's not. Using an external device to directly manipulate the games data is considered/hacking cheating. Should all the Serebiians that use Serebii's EV guide be considered hackers and cheaters?

Completely different, ev's were intended. Rng was not.

Machete
3rd October 2009, 11:00 PM
Not only are you getting it "faster" you're getting what you absolutely under no conditions could ever get without the RNG Reporter's Help.
As Wichu said, you can. It's much easier with it, so I don't know why should we do it without the RNG reporter. I mean, yes, you can build your own house, but it's easier to buy it.

And yes, I know you're not against abusing the RNG, but you've admitted that you consider it hacking.


OF Course this is hacking, and of course a bunch of people will say it's not because there a bunch of noobs who are too lazy to iv breed or get there shiny pokemon the hard way.
And why do we have to get a Pokémon we want the hard, completely luck-based way? I want a shiny Charizard and I want to use it in competitive play, does that mean that I need to breed for months? I only care about the battles, I don't want to spend more time riding my bike in Solaceon Town than battling.


Yes it saves time, but that doesn't justify this bull any more than using pokesav.
And we need to justify this bull because playing Pokémon means that you need an extremely complex honor code.


This takes advantage of the games controlls and allows hackers to use it to their advantage. If the creators of the game would have intended for this crap to be exploited by every one and their grandma who has absolutly no morals, then the creators of the game would have created a guide on how to do this.
I guess, then, that EV training is also hacking.


You used the internet (which is a device) to find out about all of this stuff and you are manipulating hidden mechanics that all of you say "people aren't meant to know about" within the game to get what you want. Sounds a lot like hacking/cheating to me...
First of all, "cheating" isn't "hacking". "Hacking" is using an external device to manipulate the game's code, and "cheating" is doing something against the rules in order to win. And no, RNG abusing is neither. You would never be able to EV train without Internet (you could figure out how to use the Power Items and all that, but you would never be able to know how many EVs a Pokémon can get, or the EV yield of every Pokémon). And knowing the egg moves of the Pokémon you want to breed must be hacking, too.


I just don't like it when people use this to get a bunch of shiny pokemon with 31 ivs in everything
And we should care about what you like because...?


If you cannot see that you are NOT supposed to have all shiny pokemon with 31 ivs in every stat, and can blatently deny this, then clearly you only wish to use this method to your own advantage
You breed for months, I use some maths. I don't see the problem.


. Also, I still do not think that RNG abuse is any better than using pokesav or even AR,
Me neither, as I don't think that hacking to get Pokémon with legit stats and legit movesets is bad.


If you don't want to get a shiny after hours or months of hard work, here is my advice to you DONT GET 1, because you don't need one, and frankly, you don't deserve it.
Obviously, no. I like the black Charizard more than the normal Charizard, and getting a good shiny Pokémon like that can took forever. If I only care about battling, why should I waste months to play with a Pokémon I like? And "deserve"? Do you mean that you "deserve" to get a Pokémon that you may or may never get as you can only get it with luck, and we don't, just because we know that we can get it?


Does that mean my aggron is a hack since I saw on the internet it got head smash in HG/SS?
Obviously it is, as the Internet is an external device. I command you to burn your unholy Steel/Rock fiend.


where I've never seen a section covering EV's, IV's, or RNG so...
So EV training is hacking. Thank you very much.


Completely different, ev's were intended. Rng was not.
The games don't tell you how to EV train, or what are IVs. They give you a ribbon when you have 510 EVs? That doesn't explain what are the EVs, and they give the ribbon to you even if you didn't EV train, you just need 510 EVs.

And if you're going to reply me, no, I don't care if you think that EV training, RNG abusing, or hacking is bad, and no, I don't think I'm better than you. But I'm not going to let you call me a lazy noob just because I don't like to spend months to get a good Pokémon when I only care about what I'm going to do with that Pokémon.

Kreis
3rd October 2009, 11:03 PM
Completely different, ev's were intended. Rng was not.

RNG abusing was not intended, but it's not hacking. As someone said, one is just using mathematics do get what one wants.

Skiks
3rd October 2009, 11:03 PM
Same thing goes for hidden power. Theres someone in plat that tells you exactly what HP type you have. If nintendo didn't mean to let us know these things all these hints would not come up.
And really your sig is irrelevant to the debate at hand. I doubt Nintendo would ban you from abusing RNG at national tourneys. Actually they don't mind 31 ivs across the board. According to smogon tourney goers anyways.

the elite trainer
3rd October 2009, 11:18 PM
RNG abusing was not intended, but it's not hacking. As someone said, one is just using mathematics do get what one wants.

Cheat device abusing was not intended, but it's not hacking. As someone said, one is just using codes to get what one wants aslong as it's within the limits of the game.

Seriously, you can put a suit on a pig but it's still a pig. Cheating is cheating, either way you say it. You can make it sound like it's not cheating, but it is.

Kreis
3rd October 2009, 11:20 PM
Same thing goes for hidden power. Theres someone in plat that tells you exactly what HP type you have. If nintendo didn't mean to let us know these things all these hints would not come up.
And really your sig is irrelevant to the debate at hand. I doubt Nintendo would ban you from abusing RNG at national tourneys. Actually they don't mind 31 ivs across the board. According to smogon tourney goers anyways.

According to SkittyOnWailord:


Well at leased some of the Pokemon used in the WCS were caught/hatched with the RNG and Nintendo allowed them. So there's your answer. Whether it's moraly correct is a differant question though, and you'll get a differant answer from everyone you ask.

the elite trainer
3rd October 2009, 11:23 PM
According to SkittyOnWailord:

I doubt nintendo likes it, they just can't really detect it.

Shadow Gamer
3rd October 2009, 11:24 PM
Incase you haven't realized, there are places in the game that help you check your EVs and IVs. For example, in Sunnyshore City there is a person that gives you a ribbon if you have 510 Evs. If they're meant to be hidden, why is GameFreak giving us a ribbon for cheating/hacking? I can't remember about the IV checker, but there's a person in a game that mentions your IVs or something similar.

Last time I played I don't remember any game character saying "Congratulations here's a ribbon for maxing out your pokemons EV's" or "Let me check your pokemons IV's for you" so that answers that.



Event Pokemon are hidden. In-game events to be specific. I used Wi-Fi to activate a hidden event, am I a hacker/cheater?

No because it was distributed by Nintendo was it not?


Are breeders hackers too?

If they're breeding for egg moves and natures, NO, if they're breeding to get good IV's, YES.


Are people who use the ability synchronize hackers as well?

No because it's a pokemon's ability that isn't hidden and is officially endorsed by Nintendo.


First of all, "cheating" isn't "hacking". "Hacking" is using an external device to manipulate the game's code, and "cheating" is doing something against the rules in order to win.And no, RNG abusing is neither.

You contradicted yourself


You would never be able to EV train without Internet (you could figure out how to use the Power Items and all that, but you would never be able to know how many EVs a Pokémon can get, or the EV yield of every Pokémon).

You would never know because you're not supposed to know.


And knowing the egg moves of the Pokémon you want to breed must be hacking, too.

No it's not because Nintendo has endorsed egg moves and put's them in official guides for all to see, unlike EV's, IV's, and RNG.


So EV training is hacking. Thank you very much.

And if you're going to reply me, no, I don't care if you think that EV training, RNG abusing, or hacking is bad, and no, I don't think I'm better than you. But I'm not going to let you call me a lazy noob just because I don't like to spend months to get a good Pokémon when I only care about what I'm going to do with that Pokémon.

I never said EV training, IV breeding, or RNG abusing is bad I just said it's technically cheating/hacking. And I never called anyone a lazy noob so idk where that came from.

Kreis
3rd October 2009, 11:31 PM
Last time I played I don't remember any game character saying "Congratulations here's a ribbon for maxing out your pokemons EV's" or "Let me check your pokemons IV's for you" so that answers that.

Explain to me then why we only get the Effort Ribbon whenever we get all 510 EVs?

No because it was distributed by Nintendo was it not?
But according to you, I used Wi-Fi, which is a device; therefore, I'm a hacker/cheater.


If they're breeding for egg moves and natures, NO, if they're breeding to get good IV's, YES.

But we're exploiting the game to get good moves and natures; therfore, we're hackers/cheaters.

No because it's a pokemon's ability that isn't hidden and is officially endorsed by Nintendo.

The ability synchronize allows us to exploit the game to find Pokemon with natures we want; therefore, we're cheaters/hackers.

You contradicted yourself



You would never know because you're not supposed to know.



No it's not because Nintendo has endorsed egg moves and put's them in official guides for all to see, unlike EV's, IV's, and RNG.



I never said EV training, IV breeding, or RNG abusing is bad I just said it's technically cheating/hacking. And I never called anyone a lazy noob so idk where that came from.

Comments in size one.

Lorde
3rd October 2009, 11:36 PM
RNG abuse.

You're abusing the game by doing so. That is hacking/cheating to me.

Noctourniquet
3rd October 2009, 11:41 PM
Last time I played I don't remember any game character saying "Congratulations here's a ribbon for maxing out your pokemons EV's" or "Let me check your pokemons IV's for you" so that answers that.
So... You are saying that the game just happens to give you a ribbon at the same time that your pokemon gets Max EVs, but its not actually related to that?




No because it was distributed by Nintendo was it not?
Yeah, and so are the games that use the RNG....




If they're breeding for egg moves and natures, NO, if they're breeding to get good IV's, YES.
So, getting good IVs through breeding = hack? Care to elaborate?



No because it's a pokemon's ability that isn't hidden and is officially endorsed by Nintendo.
Find me somewhere in the game where someone says "Ohai, did you know that Synchronise makes a wild pokemon have a 50% chance of having the same nature as yours?". I dont believe there is anyone.



You contradicted yourself
How? Using the RNG isn't against the rules... The game allows you to do it, doesn't it? Its against the rules for a Pokemon with 1 Spe to move before a pokemon with 999 Spe UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS. Its against the rules, so the game disallows it. Does it disallow RNG? No.



You would never know because you're not supposed to know.
Well, if we arent supposed to know about it then why do they bother with it? Its not like the RNG, which the game NEEDS. its an additional mechanic intended to make a pokemon excel at a certain thing.



No it's not because Nintendo has endorsed egg moves and put's them in official guides for all to see, unlike EV's, IV's, and RNG.
They dont put EVs and IVs in because the majority of people who buy the guides will be young children and it can be a confusing concept....



I never said EV training, IV breeding, or RNG abusing is bad I just said it's technically cheating/hacking. And I never called anyone a lazy noob so idk where that came from.
Actually, this guy didn't call anyone a lazy noob, that was miloticsavoir...

Machete
4th October 2009, 12:01 AM
You contradicted yourself
No. RNG abusing doesn't give me an unfair advantage nor it's something that affects the battle. Therefore, it's not cheating. And I'm using the tools the game gave to me, and therefore I'm not hacking.


I never said EV training, IV breeding, or RNG abusing is bad I just said it's technically cheating/hacking. And I never called anyone a lazy noob so idk where that came from.
I was telling that to the guy who said it.


No it's not because Nintendo has endorsed egg moves and put's them in official guides for all to see, unlike EV's, IV's, and RNG.
Official guides aren't external devices?

randomspot555
4th October 2009, 12:18 AM
Despite what many think, just because someone says "in my opinion" or "i think" doesn't mean they can't also be factually wrong.



Maybe to you but to me manipulating the game to make it give you what you want is just as bad as putting in a code for the pokemon you want using Pokesav.

Ok, this is fine. I highly disagree with it, but it's fine. "Just as bad."

However, hacking has a specific definition. It is the direct use of an external device on your DS/game cart/save file to make something that otherwise wouldn't appear.

"Cheating" can be as liberally applied or not, though strictly speaking, it is the breaking of pre-set rules. There are no real "rules" in Pokemon's main game, so there's not much to base this on.


Technically yes because they're manipulating something that is supposed to be hidden and not messed around with. They're hidden for a reason and I've yet to see Nintendo or Gamefreak endorse these mechanics or reveal them to the public.

Well, that's simply because you haven't been paying attention, or like many of us who've been around for a number of years, simply didn't know of their existence till much later. As has been mentioned, there is a person in Sinnoh who gives you a ribbon (Effort Ribbon? Not certain) after you max out at applying 510 EVs to a Pokemon. In Plat, there is someone who tells you what your Pokemon's Hidden Power type is. There are berries and items (along with Pokerus) whose only purpose is to help the process of EV training. And from what I've heard, there's some man in Hoenn who gives you hints at what your highest IV is, though I can't be more specific than that because I've yet to finish a Hoenn game. In the TV broadcasts of Sinnoh, there's a show that explains what certain natures do to Pokemon.

During the US promotion for Platinum, an interviewer specifically mentioned EVs and IVs, and the people doing the promo work simply said something like "Yes, we intentionally put them there and hoped fans would figure it out."

It's not exactly a well-kept secret, the "hidden" game mechanics


Last time I played I don't remember any game character saying "Congratulations here's a ribbon for maxing out your pokemons EV's" or "Let me check your pokemons IV's for you" so that answers that.

lol

[quote]You would never know because you're not supposed to know.

Who the hell are you to tell people how to enjoy the game they paid money for?


I never said EV training, IV breeding, or RNG abusing is bad I just said it's technically cheating/hacking. And I never called anyone a lazy noob so idk where that came from.[

"I don't like it/can't understand it/can't do it" is not the same as "cheating" or "hacking", and those two terms can't exactly be used interchangeably.


RNG abuse.

You're abusing the game by doing so. That is hacking/cheating to me.

RNG does not require an external device to directly interact with a game cart, ds, or save file. Call it cheating if you want, but it is not hacking.

Shadow Gamer
4th October 2009, 12:34 AM
Explain to me then why we only get the Effort Ribbon whenever we get all 510 EVs?

-Well explain to me why they don't give you an EV ribbon instead of an Effort ribbon.


But according to you, I used Wi-Fi, which is a device;

-Endorsed by Nintendo.


But we're exploiting the game to get good moves and natures; therfore, we're hackers/cheaters.

-You're not exploiting the game because once again this stuff is endorsed by Nintendo. NOT EV's and IV's.


The ability synchronize allows us to exploit the game to find Pokemon with natures we want; therefore, we're cheaters/hackers.

-And like I said before that ability was given to that pokemon by the developers and is endorsed by Nintendo.


So... You are saying that the game just happens to give you a ribbon at the same time that your pokemon gets Max EVs, but its not actually related to that?

-You're not supposed to know that you're pokemon have Max EV's you're supposed to think that you raised your pokemon well not raised it's EV's.


Yeah, and so are the games that use the RNG....

-Yet RNG is never talked about in the official nintendo strategy guides or game booklets. Hmm I wonder why?


So, getting good IVs through breeding = hack? Care to elaborate?

-Because IV's are hidden game mechanics not meant to be tampered with and change the dynamics of something that the devolpers made random for a reason.


Find me somewhere in the game where someone says "Ohai, did you know that Synchronise makes a wild pokemon have a 50% chance of having the same nature as yours?". I dont believe there is anyone.

-No one in the game says that but Synchronize is an ability made by the developers so...


How? Using the RNG isn't against the rules... The game allows you to do it, doesn't it?

-No RNG isn't against the rules but it's also not OF the rules and the game obviously doesn't allow it or it would be covered in the gaming booklets and strategy guides.


Well, if we aren't supposed to know about it then why do they bother with it? Its not like the RNG, which the game NEEDS.

-Right the game does need it to work but you're not supposed to manipulate it.


its an additional mechanic intended to make a pokemon excel at a certain thing.

-Randomly, not manually.


They dont put EVs and IVs in because the majority of people who buy the guides will be young children and it can be a confusing concept....

-That's why these guides are to be used by all players and why there isn't an adult guide or something because it's a kids game and is meant to be played as such.


No. RNG abusing doesn't give me an unfair advantage nor it's something that affects the battle. Therefore, it's not cheating. And I'm using the tools the game gave to me, and therefore I'm not hacking.

-Of course it does. Your pokemon wouldn't be half as strong if you didn't go on the internet and learn about it or use a rng calculator. And if the game gave them to you they wouldn't be hidden and would be covered in the official gaming booklets and strat guides.


Official guides aren't external devices?

-Yes but they are provided by the company that makes the game to help people who are having trouble understanding or finding things that THEY implemented in them.


During the US promotion for Platinum, an interviewer specifically mentioned EVs and IVs, and the people doing the promo work simply said something like "Yes, we intentionally put them there and hoped fans would figure it out."

It's not exactly a well-kept secret, the "hidden" game mechanics

-I need proof of this.


Who the hell are you to tell people how to enjoy the game they paid money for?

-No need to get angry I didn't tell anybody how they are supposed to play the games I'm just saying that abusing RNG is not how the company intended for you to play the game or else they would have put it in gaming guides and the booklets that come with the games..


"I don't like it/can't understand it/can't do it" is not the same as "cheating" or "hacking", and those two terms can't exactly be used interchangeably.

-Explain this a little more it was a bit confusing.


Sooo to sum up my views I think that any method of raising, training, capturing, breeding, or trading of pokemon NOT endorsed by Nintendo is cheating. I'm done.

Machete
4th October 2009, 12:46 AM
-Of course it does. Your pokemon wouldn't be half as strong if you didn't go on the internet and learn about it or use a rng calculator.
That's your fault. They introduced EVs and IVs for a reason. Use them or don't use them, but when you have Pokérus, the Macho Brace, the Power items, EV-reducing berries, the guy who tells you your HP power it's pretty obvious that they want us to use them. If they don't say "look, this is how EV training works" is because most of the kids who play these games wouldn't understand anything, not because EV training is evil and must be destroyed.


-Yes but they are provided by the company that makes the game to help people who are having trouble understanding or finding things that THEY implemented in them.
And? The official guides don't come with the game, and therefore, are external devices.

Shadow Gamer
4th October 2009, 12:53 AM
That's your fault. They introduced EVs and IVs for a reason. Use them or don't use them, but when you have Pokérus, the Macho Brace, the Power items, EV-reducing berries, the guy who tells you your HP power it's pretty obvious that they want us to use them. If they don't say "look, this is how EV training works" is because most of the kids who play these games wouldn't understand anything, not because EV training is evil and must be destroyed.

What's my fault? And EV's and IV's were never introduced by Nintendo or Gamefreak so that answers that.



And? The official guides don't come with the game, and therefore, are external devices.

Yes they are external devices but they're put in stores by the company and stamped with there approval.

You simply don't understand.

Skiks
4th October 2009, 12:56 AM
http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=76022
There you have it. It's from G4. A respected video game news hub. Deny this and well you're lost to me.

The reason why we put things like IVs and EVs into the game is because we wanted to give players that are really into Pokemon battles much more to work with and much more to enjoy. We have a team that's dedicated to constantly enhancing and evolving the battle system. They have so many ideas and such a willingness to enhance the game.
I ask you how can we enhance and use something we don't know about. Oh wait to use means we'd have to figure it out first. Hmm..

Shadow Gamer
4th October 2009, 1:00 AM
http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=76022
There you have it. It's from G4. A respected video game news hub. Deny this and well you're lost to me.

Well I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong and am sorry for my ignorance on the matter, I hope you all except my apology.

Skiks
4th October 2009, 1:03 AM
We accept it I understand some people think hidden mechanics can't be manipulated. It's there to give those truly competitive players reason to play the game yet still retain the mindless fun most players want out of the game. In other words IVs and EVs are for the Hardcore and the "normal way" of play is for the casual. I won't knock you for not playing competitively but I will want the same amount of respect back.
And to be honest you can still win against perfect IV pokes with not so perfect IV pokes. Just takes a bit more skill and planning.

randomspot555
4th October 2009, 1:13 AM
[
-Of course it does. Your pokemon wouldn't be half as strong if you didn't go on the internet and learn about it or use a rng calculator. And if the game gave them to you they wouldn't be hidden and would be covered in the official gaming booklets and strat guides.

Do you have any idea how common it is to go to the Internet for game help and information?

Just FYI, by your definition, you're calling the very webmaster of the website you're on a cheater and a hacker. Why are you even here, when a good chunk of this site is dedicated to explaining the inner game mechanics of Pokemon? And unlike at Smogon, it isn't to foster a "competitive battling" community, it's because this site is dedicated to publishing everything about Pokemon the games.

It doesn't make any sense to put in a game mechanic, not utilize it, not mention it at all, and not expect fans to discover it.

The only logic behind that would be if the game programmers REALLY JUST HAD NO IDEA what they were doing when making the game code that determines how IVs, EVs, base stats, and so on work, and it was all a big coincidence it occured. But that would basically be calling Game Freak morons, and I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.



-I need proof of this.



G4: Many people erroneously think that Pokemon games are just for children, but there are many complex features in the game like IVs, EV training, Hidden Power, and more. How did these features come about?

JM: The reason why we put things like IVs and EVs into the game is because we wanted to give players that are really into Pokemon battles much more to work with and much more to enjoy. We have a team that's dedicated to constantly enhancing and evolving the battle system. They have so many ideas and such a willingness to enhance the game. They're always thinking of ways to make battles more interesting. One example from this generation is that they separated moves into physical attacks and special attacks, which adds more versatility and strategy to both offense and defense. They always listen to player feedback and they battle a lot themselves. This team is the reason why Pokemon has such a rich battle system that's always evolving.

link (http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/694081/Junichi-Masuda--Takeshi-Kawachimaru-Talk-Pokemon-Platinum-Particle-Physics-Bridges-And-More.html)

OMGzers TEH GAMEFREAK ARE TEH HAX0RZ AND CHEATERZ

Yeah, in that paragraph, they say they intentionally put the EV and IV system in there, and have a whole team dedicated to the battle system and revamping it and keeping it fresh. For example, the physical/special split.

Really, it isn't even all that hard to figure out in-game, without use of the Internet. Battle a bunch of Magikarps and you're going to notice your Pokemon is going to be gaining a lot of speed points in comparison to the other stats. Or that Psycho Cut coming from Alakazam is going to do very little damage and Psychic does a lot more damage.



-No need to get angry I didn't tell anybody how they are supposed to play the games I'm just saying that abusing RNG is not how the company intended for you to play the game or else they would have put it in gaming guides and the booklets that come with the games..

They don't put a lot of stuff into game guides. Game guides pretty much are big press releases and usually don't reveal all that much. However, calling EV training "hacking" isn't even true, and calling it "cheating" has no logic backed up by it at all.

Again, I wonder why you ever came to this website considering a good chunk of it is dedicated to discovering and exposing the mechanics of Pokemon. Without these mechanics, to many fans, Pokemon is just another "generic RPG". With these mechanics, even fans unknowingly using them, it adds dozens, if not, hundreds of hours of re-play value.




-Explain this a little more it was a bit confusing.

You have the right to your opinion, not your own facts. You are free to say I don't like EV Training or RNG methods or whatever. But calling it hacking or cheating is wrong, saying it isn't mentioned by anyone affiliated with the games (or in the games) is wrong and a bit ignorant.

EDIT: 4 people beat me to it.

pika_power
4th October 2009, 1:47 AM
-Well explain to me why they don't give you an EV ribbon instead of an Effort ribbon.


EV stands for Effort Value. When you max out your Effort Values, you get an Effort Ribbon. The lack of the word "value" does not mean that the ribbon is unrelated. Or are you claiming Pokéballs aren't for catching Pokémon because they aren't called Pokémonballs?




-Endorsed by Nintendo.



If the mechanic was put in the game and it is humanly possible to exploit that mechanic, we can do so. That is as good as acknowledgement for me.

Also, is Serebii endorsed by Nintendo? Sure, the guides have pretty little bars telling you what stats each pokemon is best at, but it doesn't tell you the max stats, min stats and base stats. Not to mention that while the guides are endorsed, Serebii is not, meaning that even if he tells you the same information, your getting it in an easier way than intended, as you are supposed to go out and buy the guide. How dare you use the internet as a shortcut?!



-You're not exploiting the game because once again this stuff is endorsed by Nintendo. NOT EV's and IV's.



EVs/IVs are endorsed by Nintendo.

Either way, you are exploiting the game. I don't think Nintendo ever endorsed standing in front of a legendary and SRing to get a shiny for months on end. What's the difference between that and just targeting the exact frame? It's like going target shooting with a blindfold, then taking off the blindfold. The only criterion in the shooting game is that you shoot the targets. The removal of the blindfold is left up to the shooter.



-And like I said before that ability was given to that pokemon by the developers and is endorsed by Nintendo.


Endorsed by Nintendo, endorsed by Nintendo, endorsed by Nintendo. I keep seeing these words. Why does how Nintendo plays the game matter to me? They've given me a game where they are God. They make all the rules in it. If they didn't want me to exploit something, I wouldn't be able to exploit it. But I can. I consider the programming of the game as my endorsement. It's a far more sturdy one than your method of asserting that the method YOU think is legit is the method THEY think is legit. At the moment you are just trying to put words in Nintendo's mouth.



-You're not supposed to know that you're pokemon have Max EV's you're supposed to think that you raised your pokemon well not raised it's EV's.


Again with the interpretting of what Nintendo means. What makes you so special that you can read their minds?

What we've got here is a case of Rules As Written (RAW) V.S. Rules As Intended (RAI). As with all these cases, RAW wins, because it has hard evidence, namely the rule book (the game). RAI is almost always just some people trying to force their ruleset on others through some misguided "code of honour".



-Yet RNG is never talked about in the official nintendo strategy guides or game booklets. Hmm I wonder why?


Neither are base stats or all the locations. Also, the strategy guides are flawed and clearly not made by the designers. Sometimes the guide may miss out a portion of the game. Does that mean I shouldn't access that portion? Of course not. Guides are just that: Guides. They guide trainers through the game. Anything works in-game, so EVs, IVs and the like don't matter. Also, perhaps the guide writers don't know about RNG. They are not the designers, nor obsessed fans. They don't bother working out the RNG, they just want to see their guides.

The guide books are not RAW, and they are not RAI. They are another tool, like the internet or the RNG generator, to be used as you wish, be it for toilet paper or information.



-Because IV's are hidden game mechanics not meant to be tampered with and change the dynamics of something that the devolpers made random for a reason.


Hidden? It's right there in the game's coding. We've even been given hints to their existance.

Oh, there's a reason? Please do tell. After all, I forgot that you could read their minds.



-No one in the game says that but Synchronize is an ability made by the developers so...



The entire game is made by the developers.



-No RNG isn't against the rules but it's also not OF the rules and the game obviously doesn't allow it or it would be covered in the gaming booklets and strategy guides.



RNG is of the rules. It is the very root of everything that happens in the Pokémon games. The game _does_ allow it, because we are able to do it. If the game didn't allow it, it wouldn't happen. Sure, it isn't covered in official strategy guides. But those guides are useless. They told me that my Blissey had the same defense as a mew. Guides are not written by the developers, nor are they a representation of the developers' devine will. The game gets the honour of that.



-Right the game does need it to work but you're not supposed to manipulate it.



Again with the forcing of your opinions down other people's throats. Kindly refrain unless you have evidence instead of loosly based opinion.



-Randomly, not manually.


Guess what, the entire game should be played randomly, because that's the only fair way. You should close your eyes and play by mashing buttons.

Remind me, how do you know it is random and not manual? After all, it's put in the game and can be manipulated quite easily.



-That's why these guides are to be used by all players and why there isn't an adult guide or something because it's a kids game and is meant to be played as such.



You really do like saying how the game is supposed to be played without proof. I can say that the reason that there is no adult guide is because there is actually a secret code of letters in the child guide which kills anyone who sees it on a certain date. It is all part of nintendo's plan to kill off all children. Prove me wrong.

Serously though, perhaps children are the only ones who need a guide like that? Perhaps Nintendo wanted to play a game of hide and seek. Perhaps they knew that the market for adult gamers was small, and that guide wouldn't be worth it to make. Lots of maybes, no proof of any of them, including yours.



-Of course it does. Your pokemon wouldn't be half as strong if you didn't go on the internet and learn about it or use a rng calculator. And if the game gave them to you they wouldn't be hidden and would be covered in the official gaming booklets and strat guides.


Guides =//=RAW/RAI.

I didn't need to go on the internet to find out. I could have number crunched it myself. I don't, because it's too troublesome and I really can't be bothered learning all the skills needed.

Oh, and your pokemon wouldn't be half as strong if you didn't use your eyes to play, or if you didn't put moves on your pokemon cleverly.

Do you play entirely by the guides? Do you do everything the same as them? Or do you let it guide you, but deviate when you feel like it, perhaps discovering something new, such as an invisible item?


-Yes but they are provided by the company that makes the game to help people who are having trouble understanding or finding things that THEY implemented in them.

The entire game was created by them. Everything was implemented by them. Also, the guide isn't made by the developers, they are just people who write a guide with the knowledge they glean from the game. They just want to get their cash.




-I need proof of this.


He granted it.



-No need to get angry I didn't tell anybody how they are supposed to play the games I'm just saying that abusing RNG is not how the company intended for you to play the game or else they would have put it in gaming guides and the booklets that come with the games..

It is how they intended you to play the game because they put it in the game, which is far closer to the developers than the guides are.



Sooo to sum up my views I think that any method of raising, training, capturing, breeding, or trading of pokemon NOT endorsed by Nintendo is cheating. I'm done.


Correct. I agree. You are 100% right. Nintendo endorses things through the game. So AR is cheating. Pokesav is cheating. Altering saves is cheating. Playing the game in a different way to the way you believe Nintendo plays is not.

medjaielite
4th October 2009, 4:00 PM
It isn't hacking at all.

You'll find that the only people who say it is hacking are the ones who are rubbish at the game. Like the people who don't even EV train, or don't seek a specific nature to use. Either that or anyone who doesn't know how to RNG.



Does anyone believe this guy? I EV train. I seek the exact nature and abilities I need. A lot of people do. I don't do it because it is hacking. Anyone who says it isn't does it. It's no better than using an AR or Gameshark.

miloticsavior
4th October 2009, 9:50 PM
Plain and simple, yes it is.

Jordy Kieto
4th October 2009, 10:07 PM
Ok Im just gonna start by calling out shadow gamer on complete ignorance because yes your are supposed to know!
ALL that that stuff, evz and ivz are included in the offical guide so yes you are supposed to know!

and yeah I think Rng abuse is cheating but I wouldnt say hacking

sorry shadow didint read your apology

Polar Star
4th October 2009, 10:17 PM
It's not hacking, it's glitching. Both of which are unlegit.

randomspot555
4th October 2009, 10:45 PM
Plain and simple, yes it is.

By definition, it can't be hacking. No extenral device is being used to modify the game.


It's not hacking, it's glitching. Both of which are unlegit.

It isn't a glitch either. It's a game mechanic just like everything else purposely put in there by the makers of the game. A glitch would be something unexpected happens, like cloning.

Polar Star
4th October 2009, 10:53 PM
By definition, it can't be hacking. No extenral device is being used to modify the game.



It isn't a glitch either. It's a game mechanic just like everything else purposely put in there by the makers of the game. A glitch would be something unexpected happens, like cloning.

Can you prove that Nintendo wanted to make the game ridiculously easy by allowing people to do what would normally be a glitch?

Hydrohs
4th October 2009, 11:02 PM
Literally no it's not hacking. Nothing is being used to force the game to do it, it will do it all by itself. It's exploitation. Which to some people would be just as bad.

To me, I don't care in the least.


Can you prove that Nintendo wanted to make the game ridiculously easy by allowing people to do what would normally be a glitch?

Nintendo has nothing to do with it. GameFreak coded the game that way, we found out a way to use it to our advantage. Nothing was manipulated. It is not a glitch, the game is functioning exactly as it was intended.

randomspot555
4th October 2009, 11:15 PM
Can you prove that Nintendo wanted to make the game ridiculously easy by allowing people to do what would normally be a glitch?

Nintendo doesn't make the games.

A glitch, by definition, is something that unintentionally happened. Tweaking is a glitch. Mew in Gen I (or Missingno) is a glitch. Cloning is a glitch.

RNG is a system put into the game by the makers of the game so that breeding, events from Wonder Cards, and so on all properly work. All RNG "abuse" is is doing mathmatical calculations so you can tell how many eggs you'll have to get before you get a shiny, or a certain IV combination, and so on. There is nothing in that the game is being changed or manipulated.

Now if one likes it or not, or thinks it's "just as bad" as hacking, whatever. But it is not hacking, and it's not a glitch.

Noctourniquet
4th October 2009, 11:15 PM
My view is this;
Are Pokémon obtained via RNG legit? Arguable. They are generated by the game and only the game, but their creation was provoked by the player.
Are Pokémon obtained via RNG hacked? No. An external device is not used and the game's coding is not modified.
Are people who RNG lazy? No. They simply don't want to spend hours getting shinies/good IVs when they have real lives to attend to. They took the time to learn and understand the method and should use it freely.
Are people who RNG abusing the game? Yes. They are taking a game mechanic and attempting to control it. This IS different to EV training because EVs are meant to be modified. To my knowledge, Nintendo and Game Freak never implied that gamers were supposed to find out about how to control the RNG.
Are people who RNG noobs? No. They clearly have an understanding of Pokémon because they must understand game mechanics in order for RNG exploitation to work, and they must also have an understanding of the fairly complex method of RNG exploitation itself. IMO, understanding the game is not noobish.
Should people RNG? If they want to be completely legit and *clean*, then no they should not. I freely admit that I RNG when I want to. But I also use chaining. I breed for good IVs. I admit that my chained/bred Pokémon are more acceptable than my RNG'd ones. But I am not bothered about my RNG'd Pokémon. I am proud of both my bred/chained Pokémon, AND my RNG'd ones because it shows that I understand how the game works in many aspects.
Disagree with my views on this? Challenge me on them.

Troggy
5th October 2009, 12:08 AM
Just to stir the pot a bit. I recently obtained my SID and used the most basic method (get seed, select nature wanted, do taps, get egg) to hatch a shiny egg instead of a regular one. Now, I was also in the middle of IV breeding (without RNG) that Pokemon with the nature I selected. Once I had the shiny in the egg, I spent nearly the entire week resetting for the IVs I wanted, just as if I was hatching more eggs with my parents during the IV breeding process. It was painful, and I likely would have gotten a somewhat better result by straight IV breeding a non-shiny.

Now, I know you can do far more complicated and precise things with the RNG, but all I did was change a legit IV bred Pokemon to a different color. That, to me, could never be considering illegitimate, because the shiny/non-shiny distinction is meaningless other than to look at.

Really arguing about it is silly. All people are doing is approaching perfect IVs. If you work hard at IV breeding yourself, you will still be just fine against them, since you don't need RNG to get near perfect Pokemon. All the other bred members of my team were IV bred the old fashioned way. If you have a well constructed team with high IVs, you are at a slight disadvantage, if any, versus someone who has RNG'd for something closer to perfection.

Arande
5th October 2009, 3:55 AM
Are people who RNG abusing the game? Yes. They are taking a game mechanic and attempting to control it. This IS different to EV training because EVs are meant to be modified. To my knowledge, Nintendo and Game Freak never implied that gamers were supposed to find out about how to control the RNG.


I wish to challenge this. Considering that they have said they add hidden elements in the game purposely, what is to say we were not supposed to find out about it? Why is it they set the RNG to advance when the player takes certain actions, as opposed to keeping the 60 FPS? Or to some other method where the player does not have control over it?

randomspot555
5th October 2009, 4:03 AM
I wish to challenge this. Considering that they have said they add hidden elements in the game purposely, what is to say we were not supposed to find out about it? Why is it they set the RNG to advance when the player takes certain actions, as opposed to keeping the 60 FPS? Or to some other method where the player does not have control over it?

To be fair, RNG manipulation is much different than EV training, IVs, and base stats, all of which have at least been hinted at in the games. While it's probably true that the game makers fully knew HOW the RNG could be exploited (since they designed it), it probably wasn't added for fans enjoyment. Rather, it's a game mechanic they put in and, ever since a similar exploit was found in Emerald, every game since then has been tested for it.

Mr. Mudkip
5th October 2009, 5:29 AM
Answer to OP:
Look up the defention of the word 'hacking'.
Bam. Answer.

Hydrohs
5th October 2009, 11:53 AM
I wish to challenge this. Considering that they have said they add hidden elements in the game purposely, what is to say we were not supposed to find out about it? Why is it they set the RNG to advance when the player takes certain actions, as opposed to keeping the 60 FPS? Or to some other method where the player does not have control over it?

For the record RNG =/= FPS. O_o

But as Randomspot said RNG isn't something that GameFreak added in for people's enjoyment, they added it in because it needed to be there.

mattj
5th October 2009, 12:23 PM
For the record RNG =/= FPS. O_o

But as Randomspot said RNG isn't something that GameFreak added in for people's enjoyment, they added it in because it needed to be there.

wow, you don't know what FPS means, but you're happy to comment on how RNG is not cheating. XD

NickoTheGuitarist
5th October 2009, 1:14 PM
I've recently started RNGíng, and i'm hooked. It's so much fun, and you never know what nature your going to get, or the amount of taps. For example, once I got a jolly Larvitar on just 16 taps!

Anyways, I think it's up to morals.

Arande
5th October 2009, 1:53 PM
For the record RNG =/= FPS. O_o

But as Randomspot said RNG isn't something that GameFreak added in for people's enjoyment, they added it in because it needed to be there.

FPS = Frames per second. "Frame" being each insantace of the RNG. In 3rd gen, the RNG was running at a constant rate of 60 frames per second (as in, it generated 60 numbers for the game to use, should it require that number at that 60th of a second), so it was continuously running. In 4th gen, (least D/P/Pt) the RNG only advances when the player does something. (taking a step in grass, flipping a journal page, or the coin flip etc)

My point was why would they have given players control of it if they honestly didn't want us to do anything with i? Yes all games have RNG's, but it could have been in a way we can not control, but they chose to give us control.

pika_power
5th October 2009, 2:43 PM
Nintendo doesn't make the games.

A glitch, by definition, is something that unintentionally happened. Tweaking is a glitch. Mew in Gen I (or Missingno) is a glitch. Cloning is a glitch.

RNG is a system put into the game by the makers of the game so that breeding, events from Wonder Cards, and so on all properly work. All RNG "abuse" is is doing mathmatical calculations so you can tell how many eggs you'll have to get before you get a shiny, or a certain IV combination, and so on. There is nothing in that the game is being changed or manipulated.

Now if one likes it or not, or thinks it's "just as bad" as hacking, whatever. But it is not hacking, and it's not a glitch.


This.

We are taking advantage of the game's mechanics. Yes, perhaps the Gamefreak crew might not play their games this way, or have intended us to play things this way, but they intended the game to work like this. I could take them through every single step, and they would say "Yes, we intended for the RNG to be advanced when you double tapped the Pokétch." If I were to ask them about the Battle Tower clone, they would not reply in the same way (As far as I can imagine), because clearly it is just an overlooked misprogrammed save.

They gave us the tools to use. They gave us the hammers, the blow torches and the metal bars. They may have intended us to just melt the metal and bang it for fun, but if we melt the metal and bang it into a machine gun, it's still just using the equipment they gave us and using it in the way they wanted, but using them in such a way that we actually get something productive out of it instead of a mess which might be pointy enough to stab someone 15% of the time.

Saying that RNG abuse is cheating is like saying that chain grabbing or comboing in fighting games is cheating.

My argument is this (http://www.sirlin.net/). He explains it far better than I do.

Jordy Kieto
5th October 2009, 3:08 PM
KK I think there is a major flaw all you people who reason RNG abuse was intentional

Dont you need you secret ID?
and isint the only way to get your secret ID by hacking?

Pamizard
5th October 2009, 3:31 PM
Its not hacking becaus masuda had it in his blog. it's not like he's making it hacking for everyone. Its probably a easy way to help everyone recieve shinies I have tried it but i'm not going to waste time on it.

randomspot555
5th October 2009, 4:09 PM
KK I think there is a major flaw all you people who reason RNG abuse was intentional

Dont you need you secret ID?
and isint the only way to get your secret ID by hacking?

No, that isn't true. Many people on these forums have discovered their SID without hacking. I don't remeber the specific steps at the moment, but it requires having caught a random shiny Pokemon (not part of a chain, not hatched). I know Skittyonwailord has done it.

Machete
5th October 2009, 4:21 PM
No, that isn't true. Many people on these forums have discovered their SID without hacking. I don't remeber the specific steps at the moment, but it requires having caught a random shiny Pokemon (not part of a chain, not hatched). I know Skittyonwailord has done it.
I've done that, too.

You need to know the IVs of the shiny Pokémon. If you know these, you can calculate the SID (there's a thread in Smogon that shows how to do it).

Hydrohs
5th October 2009, 5:52 PM
wow, you don't know what FPS means, but you're happy to comment on how RNG is not cheating. XD

I do know what FPS is, very much so. Frames per second and random number generators are not the same thing.


FPS = Frames per second. "Frame" being each insantace of the RNG. In 3rd gen, the RNG was running at a constant rate of 60 frames per second (as in, it generated 60 numbers for the game to use, should it require that number at that 60th of a second), so it was continuously running. In 4th gen, (least D/P/Pt) the RNG only advances when the player does something. (taking a step in grass, flipping a journal page, or the coin flip etc)

My point was why would they have given players control of it if they honestly didn't want us to do anything with i? Yes all games have RNG's, but it could have been in a way we can not control, but they chose to give us control.

There was probably a reason they made it set rather than truly random. It must have made the game run better or something.

Hirata
5th October 2009, 6:53 PM
Most of the competitive battling community have already accepted RNG as being legit. Like it or not it's no longer a matter of whether it's right or wrong, but more whether or not you choose to do it yourself and stay on top, or refuse to and get left behind (or achieve the same result the hard way).

Personally I think it's okay because while it may be "manipulation" (something we've been doing with the game in various ways for years already) of the game, it's not hacking, directly altering game code, or abusing a programming error which all fall into my personal list of non-legitimacy for gaming.

Noctourniquet
5th October 2009, 7:26 PM
KK I think there is a major flaw all you people who reason RNG abuse was intentional

Dont you need you secret ID?
and isint the only way to get your secret ID by hacking?

Nope, you can determine your SID using the IVs of a non-chained shiny pokemon. Its a bit complicated, but all you need is an IV calculator and a Binary calculator.

arceus7
5th October 2009, 7:59 PM
I find it funny how you guys trumpet your horn saying RNG abuse is hacking when its not hacking nor cheating and by the way even if you don't try and affect it you still do by messing with poketch apps and also you use math to figure out what will happen if you do something and you try to find out if that's the result you want therefore RNG =/= Hacking or cheating rng is not hacking or cheating but thats your opinion based on what you think cheating or hacking means but I go by the dictionary definition


The poll says its all RNG is widely excepted and this is comming from a guy who doesn't even know how to do this and ITS NOT CHEATING OR HACKING. < this is not yelling just making emphasis

Pkmn Breeder Jack
6th October 2009, 11:45 PM
It's the same as exploiting the EV system, only a lot more complex. Nothing changing the normal processes of the game. Just exploiting them.

So I say no.

Chaos Rush
6th October 2009, 11:59 PM
I'm sure somebody has said this before. My philosophy:
If you can do it in the game without any cheat device, then it's not hacking/cheating. Heck, even Nintendo/GameFreak allows RNG abused Pokemon in tournaments.

Kukem
7th October 2009, 12:51 AM
Yes it was a serious post and no finding out what moves a pokemon learns is not hacking because that's not a hidden mechanic within the game and they have pokemon move sets in official nintendo strategy guides, where I've never seen a section covering EV's, IV's, or RNG so...

I find this really odd as The Pokemon Diamond and Pearl Ultimate National Pokedex (The Official Nintendo Player's Guide) on Pg.12 The Section Called "Raising Base Stats through Battle" describe the mechanics of Effort Values or Effort Points or whtever else you want to call them. So, in all actuality, Nintendo did tell people about these "Hidden Mechanics" as well as they promote Breeding for moves and they even talk about Pokerus.

Though the RNG does make Shiny Pokemon more common and base Stats easier to perfect, it's just a math equation exploiter. That's like using Pythagoras' Theorem to find the area of a right angle triangle. I personally haven't used it and probably won't but I guess that it isn't manipulating the game directly so it's not an External Device... no more so than a Player's Guide.

Rakurai
7th October 2009, 1:40 AM
The poll says its all RNG is widely excepted and this is comming from a guy who doesn't even know how to do this and ITS NOT CHEATING OR HACKING. < this is not yelling just making emphasis

Just because someone voted that it isn't hacking doesn't mean that they approve of it.

Ellie
7th October 2009, 1:55 AM
Moving this to My DPPt Games.

Hydrohs
7th October 2009, 1:58 AM
I'm sure somebody has said this before. My philosophy:
If you can do it in the game without any cheat device, then it's not hacking/cheating. Heck, even Nintendo/GameFreak allows RNG abused Pokemon in tournaments.

Well to be fair Nintendo has no way of knowing if someone exploited the RNG to get a Pokemon. It appears completely normal, just like any other Pokemon.

arceus7
7th October 2009, 10:05 PM
If you actually read the 5th page you would know why I put the last bit about the pole in their get your head in gear and don't look like an idiot rakurai

Rakurai
7th October 2009, 10:37 PM
If you actually read the 5th page you would know why I put the last bit about the pole in their get your head in gear and don't look like an idiot rakurai

I was simply saying that you can't assume that RNG abuse is widely accepted just because the majority of votes on the poll said it isn't hacking (Which is what it sounded like you were doing in the sentence I quoted, the reason for why you said it being irrelevant.). I'm not trying to say that it isn't widely accepted, either.

There's no need to start throwing out insults just because someone disagrees with you.

Hirata
8th October 2009, 6:10 PM
I would dare to say that RNG is indeed becoming widely accepted if not already so.

This discussion has happened on a number of Pokemon related forums already (GameFAQs, Smogon etc) and a vast majority of users have no problem with RNG.

Tim:)
17th October 2009, 2:53 PM
I'm anti RNG for the sole fact that I can't get it figured out right! I'm just bitter. Tried a bunch of times, just kept getting regular old babies. I refuse to AR, but will kick this RNG crap in the teeth if it's the last thing I do! (which it probably will, wife can't take it (: ) Secret ID, IV values, RNG, IRNG, Target time, Delay time, binary, hexidecimal. ARGH! I thought this was a children's game? I just want shinies...

Noctourniquet
17th October 2009, 3:14 PM
I'm anti RNG for the sole fact that I can't get it figured out right! I'm just bitter. Tried a bunch of times, just kept getting regular old babies. I refuse to AR, but will kick this RNG crap in the teeth if it's the last thing I do! (which it probably will, wife can't take it (: ) Secret ID, IV values, RNG, IRNG, Target time, Delay time, binary, hexidecimal. ARGH! I thought this was a children's game? I just want shinies...

Indeed. I had trouble with it at first. Just so you know, breeding for shinies is the best place to start. And its a childrens game that has a far more techincal side to it ;)
Thats basically the reason why i play. I enjoy the technical side of it :)

lindsy95
17th October 2009, 3:22 PM
Uh, no

o.0''' Its just a random number generator, its luck and timing.

Now if abused it can be consiter cheting but otherwise...

Agonist
17th October 2009, 3:24 PM
it's not cheating, your just taking adavantage of the ability to be able to create your own perfect shinies

MetaPheonixPal
18th October 2009, 5:32 AM
If someones does RNG Abusing to get a shiny I say it is hacking because it takes away from the work put in to get a shiny and stuff

If its for other stuff I don't really care like if its for IVs I will just call you lazy =P

Kreis
18th October 2009, 5:38 AM
If someones does RNG Abusing to get a shiny I say it is hacking because it takes away from the work put in to get a shiny and stuff

If its for other stuff I don't really care like if its for IVs I will just call you lazy =P

It's not hacking. You're not using a device to directly manipulate the games data.

MetaPheonixPal
18th October 2009, 5:40 AM
It's not hacking. You're not using a device to directly manipulate the games data.

Then whats the point of this thread, hmm?

Kreis
18th October 2009, 5:40 AM
Then whats the point of this thread, hmm?

No clue, but it's not hacking. If you think it's cheating, that's another matter.

MetaPheonixPal
18th October 2009, 5:43 AM
No clue, but it's not hacking. If you think it's cheating, that's another matter.

Yeah thats more of what I mean cheating not really hacking.

Now to wait for this to slowly die.... I shall prepare the tombstone.

Hydrohs
18th October 2009, 4:30 PM
If someones does RNG Abusing to get a shiny I say it is hacking because it takes away from the work put in to get a shiny and stuff

If its for other stuff I don't really care like if its for IVs I will just call you lazy =P

Alright you say it's hacking/cheating when they're looking for a shiny simply because you're jealous, but it's the exact same thing for IVs you don't care. I see.

kabzy
31st October 2009, 4:38 AM
Im definitely gonna try it out when i find out my secret id, but i do think it is just hacking without the use of external devices.

arceus7
31st October 2009, 5:23 AM
Im definitely gonna try it out when i find out my secret id, but i do think it is just hacking without the use of external devices.

yes but its not the literal definition of hacking in the dictionary since hacking involves external devices. Besides all your doing is figuring out different things you have to do to influence what you want. Anyway the RNG is what cause which pokemon and or items they have appear and wether or not their shiny BTW people don't want to SR for things 100000 so that their game cartridge burns out from the constant turning on and off.

miloticsavior
31st October 2009, 6:39 AM
Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

Kreis
31st October 2009, 6:42 AM
Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

No, it's not hacking. No external device is used to directly manipulate the game's data; therefore, it's not hacking. I don't even play Pokemon games anymore, so what category do I fall under?

Arande
31st October 2009, 11:17 AM
Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

I've got over 150 EV'd pokes, 250some shinies BEFORE I learned to RNG, and over 6000 trades, and you call me lazy?

Anyways, please clarify how it "clearly is" Just because you don't like something doesn't change if it's hacking, cheating, or not.

Hydrohs
31st October 2009, 4:44 PM
Im definitely gonna try it out when i find out my secret id, but i do think it is just hacking without the use of external devices.

It's not hacking. There is nothing being used to change how the game works.


Well obviously all the lazy people are going to say it's not hacking though it clearly is. I think people only do things like this to get attention for there shiny pokemon with 31 ivs...I mean really people.

Except it's clearly not. I don't use RNG and I don't plan to because I'm too lazy to find my secret ID and try to use RNG. It's not hacking in any way, and saying so makes you look like a fool.

arceus7
31st October 2009, 8:03 PM
you call them lazy but its not really being lazy though I for one am not lazy and never gotten a shiny gible after 5000 egs after 2 years using masuda method and its annoying to spend TWO years on something besides its just a little bit of data. I don't want to burn out my ds's battery or my platinum game card after thousands of sring and a whole bunch of stuff like leaving it on.

Hiro__
31st October 2009, 8:29 PM
Okay. I said that it's not hacking, but only because you don't use external cheating devices. As far as i can tell, it's basically like soft resetting until you get a shiny legendary or a good nature on said legendary, and i don't think that's too horrible. It's something that was going to be done by someone, eventually and spread from there. It's technically built into the game, so some people are going to abuse it, and others won't. I don't understand it 100&#37; but i do soft reset for shiny legends. (no luck yet... :/) however, that's all i soft reset for... but whatever, i don't think its hacking or cheating.

Troggy
5th November 2009, 3:44 PM
This thread has gone quite some distance on the question of whether RNG is 'hacking' or not, but I don't really see that as the main concern. Rather than argue about semantics, I thought I might raise the point of what RNG is actually doing to the worldwide community, and thus Wi-Fi 'metagame', if you could call it that.

The major impacts of RNG abuse are:

1. Devaluing of shinies, especially those without good natures/IVs/egg moves
2. Negation of advantage gained by hacking perfect IV'd Pokemon
3. Slow transformation of Wi-Fi metagame to DS Shoddy Metagame

Despite there only being three items here, I think all of them are important. The first is something that primarily impacts the trade market. Shinies have been getting consistently easier to find as time has gone on, and that is fine. Many players are interested in the different colored variations, and through the various methods available in Gen IV, you are more likely than ever to run into one. Even with the increased availablility, the rarity of shinies has been good as currency. With the advent of RNG, players can spit out random shinies virtually at will, and with some effort can make shinies that are as good as their normal colored counterparts.

With the supply increasing rapidly, and omnipresent cloning using AR or GTS, the trade market is being flooded with playable shiny clones that nearly anyone can get. This is what (to me, and other competitive minded players) has made shinies from chains, random encounters, or masuda method completely worthless. If I want a shiny with a random nature and random IVs, it is only minutes away. That demotivates players to trade for shinies of that kind that anyone else has, despite how much work they may have put into getting them. While the market may never completely saturate (due to new players, players without ability to RNG, etc), it is getting harder and harder to find good trades for shinies that aren't up to snuff.

While the concern about devaluing something the game had determined to be 'valuable' is important, nothing is more crucial than what RNG IV breeding is doing. Some players are not competitive battle minded, and that is understandable, but in a community when only the best will succeed, RNG abuse is pushing the limits of what is possible, as well as blurring the line between legit and hack. At first, the RNG prospect seemed like a helpful tool to reduce breeding times and have more control over your output. However, it has become so widespread, that players are able to tune legends down to the precise hidden power they would like.

Due to this level of control, there is now very little (if any) difference between a RNG'd Pokemon (done by a competant player), and a flawless IV AR hack. To add insult to injury, people who have experience with AR can hack pokemon that appear to be RNG'd to have flawless IVs, and no one will be the wiser. We have set ourselves up for this by abusing the system to the extent where even perfect Pokemon are considered legitimate by virtue of the player they came from, or the method they were obtained.

The main thing that this comes down to is 'level playing field'. Is there one? If there isn't, how can it be achieved? Currently, people who are RNG'ing and distributing have access to flawless/near flawless competitively tuned Pokemon basically at will. For the outsider, the only way to compensate for this now inherent advantage is to either a) IV breed without RNG and hope for comparable results or b) Hack a team that is level with the RNG products.

Just to make my point clear, I will repeat: In terms of competitive battling there is now little to no difference between RNG'ing and AR Hacking. I don't mean in the sense that one could possibly be flagged at a Nintendo sanctioned event and one can't. I mean that once the Pokemon are on the battle field, neither player has an inherent advantage based on the quality of the members of their team. It is essentially Shoddy battle on the DS.

That is a nice transition to my final point, which is the evolution of an unpredictable and imperfect Wi-Fi metagame to a DS Shoddy environment. If you play Wi-Fi battles against Smogon members, you may as well just do it online. Their teams will be flawless or near flawless, with all the exact Hidden Powers, moves, abilities, that they wanted. Every IV point you have missed due to lack of IV breeding, or IV breeding the old fashioned way puts you behind the curve. I doubt there is anyone who edits their Shoddy team to represent what they actually have in the cartridge, but that is essentially what Wi-Fi will become. Your opponent will have an exact copy of what they have online, and without using something to even it out, your team will be the online counterpart without the maximum points.

Granted the Wi-Fi community is quite large, and exists many places beyond Smogon, but the fact that this kind of atmosphere has begun to form, and may very well spread as the Pokemon are cloned/distributed/re-cloned/re-distributed, it is a concern for me. It will become exceedingly difficult to play a Standard match against someone else who doesn't RNG or Hack yet still knows what they are doing. Just because I am one of those people doesn't mean the overall numbers support that kind of player.

While the argument to whether RNG abuse is 'hacking' or not is somewhat valid, it's missing the point of what is really going on here. Just like any other thing in life, many players are doing everything they can to get ahead, reassuring themselves that while they are producing Pokemon that might as well be hacked, they are doing it in a 'legit' way. Although I still would argue that RNG abuse is not hacking, it is destroying trade forums, Wi-Fi communities, and at least this player's motivation to even try. I'm not writing this as a complaint, as I cannot change anything about it. My goal is to show, that in the near future, AR hacking will not provide any advantage over someone who uses 'legit' Pokemon, and that is a sad news story for those of us who actually work at breeding the traditional way and are actually the OT of our team.

Just wanted to make a note, the best IV bred Pokemon I have produced so far is a Lonely Swift Swim Kingdra 30/31/28/27/30/31. I was very pleased when I got it (it took quite some time to make), but after seeing so many offers on Smogon, PokeCommunity, and elsewhere for virtually flawless RNG Kingdras that can be cloned and shipped to you at minimal cost, it just seemed to be a little bit in vain. The only thing that anyone like me has to hold onto is the fact that the Pokemon was actually created by me, and is unique. To be fair, no one cares about uniqueness when they are trying to win.

KKInu
5th November 2009, 7:37 PM
It's not technically hacking, but I do think it's unfair since you're manipulating the system to get what you want. It's unfair to people who don't know how to do this and/or still try their hardest to raise their Pokemon to meet certain standards naturally. And like some other people said it defeats the purpose of Shinies being rare

Arande
6th November 2009, 12:23 AM
Well, in a way that is just how progression is. An easier method of doing something is found, it will be used. Even Nintendo themselves make things easier to IV breed, as with the discovery of power items "locking" IV's to be inherited in HG/SS. What were your chances to get a poke with all 30+ before? What are they with 2 31's garunteed? Does that mean this is bad as I have an advantage in IV breeding over those that don't have HG/SS or know about it?

As for fairness in between RNGing and raising pokes the old fasioned way. Know it will sound harsh, but stat-wise, all that matters are those numbers. Whether you got lucky and found a great IV'd poke, or breed for months is irrelevant. (this isn't the anime where, brandons regirock beats hariyama because it's better trained, it's, a game where rock < fighting) How is comparing RNG'd pokes to normal ones different than say, comparing my legends/events I SR'd for to someone that just took the first one the delivery guy gave them? As my modest darkrai with 30 sp att 31 speed will have an advantage over one that is lax w 15 and 20.

You are never going to have a "level playing field" as, unless nintendo hand writes every hidden detail in the instruction booklet, there will be things some people will never know. Doing that will completely defeat the purpose of Nintendo adding said hidden mechanics to begin with (in what you are talkinga bout, IV's)

AND RNGing doesn't "push the limits of what is possible" as the results are possible to begin with, just unlikely.

Anyways, short version. Your arguments are those brought up whenever any mechanic that gives someone an advantage over another is discovered (IV breeding, EV training, chained shinies vs randomly encountered, etc) The difference is the scale of effect RNGing has.

TheFightingPikachu
7th November 2009, 7:57 PM
While the argument to whether RNG abuse is 'hacking' or not is somewhat valid, it's missing the point of what is really going on here.

This is why I choose not to vote on the question as asked.


AND RNGing doesn't "push the limits of what is possible" as the results are possible to begin with, just unlikely.


Shinies have been getting consistently easier to find as time has gone on, and that is fine. Many players are interested in the different colored variations, and through the various methods available in Gen IV, you are more likely than ever to run into one. Even with the increased availablility, the rarity of shinies has been good as currency. With the advent of RNG, players can spit out random shinies virtually at will, and with some effort can make shinies that are as good as their normal colored counterparts.

I agree with Troggy and not Arande. (Troggy, you put an impressive amunt of thought into your post!)

Making something more common, easier to get, in less time, etc. is what RNG abuse is all about. The alchemists sought to turn common materials into gold, but what would happen if (most)everyone knew the secret? The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

Tiomasta
7th November 2009, 9:07 PM
We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

Amen to that.

Arande
7th November 2009, 10:42 PM
Making something more common, easier to get, in less time, etc. is what RNG abuse is all about. The alchemists sought to turn common materials into gold, but what would happen if (most)everyone knew the secret? The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.


I was just ranting, and for some reason, feel like answering that question.

If everyone knew the secret, the results would be akin to what happened to aluminium. It used to be worth more than gold, but after people learned to process it, it's used for our drink containers we throw in the trash without a second thought...

What makes you think something in a game will not be affected in a similar way? That is, what was once considered rare is now more easily obtained. The value of anything is never set in stone, it's what the buyer will pay for it, supply and demand, etc.

If you are trying to say it is bad as it devalues shinies due to them being more common, and therefore makes them worth less in trades. Well, yes, it does that, but whether it is bad or good is subjective.

Not trying to sound harsh, but I am not going to sugar coat it either.

Anyways, in HG/SS they are having trouble RNGIng things as the game seems to randomly skip frames. That is not to say they won't eventually find out what the "random" factor is. As for making it complex, hope nintendo makes it continuous (3rd gen) rather than player controllable (4th). The problem is that even the RNG has to have some base input as to where to start. As soon as that base input is discovered, it is possible to manipulate.

ShinySandshrew
8th November 2009, 12:44 AM
Here's something to consider: If you can RNG, why even be on a forum? You can make whatever you want with RNG. Does it serve any purpose to be on a site like this or even do any trading? If you can get loads of awesome Pokemon, what is the point of doing anything with other people? Yes, I know that you can battle with your juggernauts but what's the point unless you're playing against someone who has weaker Pokemon?

To all you who say that using massively powerful Pokemon to battle is fun: Why don't you try getting into the MLB/NBA/NFL and use steroids?

Hydrohs
8th November 2009, 12:50 AM
Making something more common, easier to get, in less time, etc. is what RNG abuse is all about. The alchemists sought to turn common materials into gold, but what would happen if (most)everyone knew the secret? The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

It's not unfair. Everyone can do it. The only people that can't are those that chose not to, therefore you chose to put yourself at a 'disadvantage'.

The problem would e resolved if Gamefreak used a real RNG.

arceus7
8th November 2009, 1:09 AM
Here's something to consider: If you can RNG, why even be on a forum? You can make whatever you want with RNG. Does it serve any purpose to be on a site like this or even do any trading? If you can get loads of awesome Pokemon, what is the point of doing anything with other people? Yes, I know that you can battle with your juggernauts but what's the point unless you're playing against someone who has weaker Pokemon?

To all you who say that using massively powerful Pokemon to battle is fun: Why don't you try getting into the MLB/NBA/NFL and use steroids?
Those people do it for events and most people never learn about RNG except from places like these online.
you get tested for drugs before

randomspot555
8th November 2009, 1:36 AM
Here's something to consider: If you can RNG, why even be on a forum? You can make whatever you want with RNG. Does it serve any purpose to be on a site like this or even do any trading? If you can get loads of awesome Pokemon, what is the point of doing anything with other people? Yes, I know that you can battle with your juggernauts but what's the point unless you're playing against someone who has weaker Pokemon?

To all you who say that using massively powerful Pokemon to battle is fun: Why don't you try getting into the MLB/NBA/NFL and use steroids?

Go to serebiiforums.com. There is much more to do here than trade and battle. Maybe you didn't notice.

No one died and made you dictator of SPPF. People can come here for whatever reason they want, because there are forums here for just about every segment of Pokemon fandoms.



The major impacts of RNG abuse are:

1. Devaluing of shinies, especially those without good natures/IVs/egg moves
**Before I proceed, I know you covered many of my points later in your post. This isn't all specifically to you, but a general message**
The "value" of shinies has been a complete hoax. Considering that only a small portion can actually use digital legality checking programs (And an even smaller portion, regulated by the official tournaments, can use official hack checking machines), most people can only tell a hack vs a legit Pokemon by the visible summary data.

Ever since Gen I, there's been a cloning method. In Emerald, it's extremely easy to clone. In Gen 4, GTS can clone, and there's still a Gen I-esque risk method for cloning during a trade. And of course, there's Action Replay cloning. All of these, at least on the surface, appear as perfect copies of the original Pokemon.

Add in the increase use of soft-resetting, chaining, and the Masuda method, and even legit shinies have been extremely devalued by the game developers themselves.

I think the "value"/"economy" of trading Pokemon is something that turns off a lot of people while trading. IT's basically what burned me out. It was only long after I learned a lot that I knew most of my Pokemon were, at best, cloned, and most likely hacked.

I mean, I hang out with a group of Pokemon fans at another forum. Every dozen or so pages, we talk about our incredibly bad luck of never finding shinies even during chaining. The fact is, most people don't RNG, or even attempt to chain that often or Masuda method enough for them. I honestly think it's a small portion of Pokemon players that do this.


2. Negation of advantage gained by hacking perfect IV'd Pokemon

Don't see this as a problem because..well, look here. Most of SPPF are (no offense, d00ds) confused by the concept of EVs and IVs. The fact is there's a battling community for everyone, and you can easily find any type of battling if you look hard enough.


3. Slow transformation of Wi-Fi metagame to DS Shoddy Metagame

And if that's what people want then that's how it should be. But Jumpman and co from Smogon aren't hiring Yakuza to eliminate other forms of battling. I can still hop on PBR and face whatever gimmick team or overpowered ubers I feel like.


a) IV breed without RNG and hope for comparable results or b) Hack a team that is level with the RNG products.

And similarly, to someone who wonders why their lvl 61 Torterra that beat Cynthia's Garchomp lost against someone's Dugtrio, then they need to learn to EV train and all the other essential mechanics to do competitive battling (i hate that term), or they need to find people who play by rules of their liking. There's plenty of free-for-all battlers out there.


it is destroying trade forums,

Trade forums are a cesspool anyway. I don't want to flame other Pokemon web sites, so I won't name names, but people seem to get very insular. IE if they only see Alamos Darkrais with a Quirky, Modest, and Jolly nature on whateverforums.com, then they'll all be going "HAXORS! Adamant Darkrai from ALAMOS isn't possible!" I've rarely had good experiences with trading in large websites. I've had much better deals on smaller sites.


It's not technically hacking, but I do think it's unfair since you're manipulating the system to get what you want. It's unfair to people who don't know how to do this and/or still try their hardest to raise their Pokemon to meet certain standards naturally. And like some other people said it defeats the purpose of Shinies being rare

If they don't know, they can learn. You have to learn a ton of other game mechanics, and RNG isn't exactly rocket science. It's a bit daunting, but not as mind blownig as many here are making it out to be.


Well, in a way that is just how progression is. An easier method of doing something is found, it will be used. Even Nintendo themselves make things easier to IV breed, as with the discovery of power items "locking" IV's to be inherited in HG/SS. What were your chances to get a poke with all 30+ before? What are they with 2 31's garunteed? Does that mean this is bad as I have an advantage in IV breeding over those that don't have HG/SS or know about it?

As for fairness in between RNGing and raising pokes the old fasioned way. Know it will sound harsh, but stat-wise, all that matters are those numbers. Whether you got lucky and found a great IV'd poke, or breed for months is irrelevant. (this isn't the anime where, brandons regirock beats hariyama because it's better trained, it's, a game where rock < fighting) How is comparing RNG'd pokes to normal ones different than say, comparing my legends/events I SR'd for to someone that just took the first one the delivery guy gave them? As my modest darkrai with 30 sp att 31 speed will have an advantage over one that is lax w 15 and 20.

You are never going to have a "level playing field" as, unless nintendo hand writes every hidden detail in the instruction booklet, there will be things some people will never know. Doing that will completely defeat the purpose of Nintendo adding said hidden mechanics to begin with (in what you are talkinga bout, IV's)

AND RNGing doesn't "push the limits of what is possible" as the results are possible to begin with, just unlikely.

Anyways, short version. Your arguments are those brought up whenever any mechanic that gives someone an advantage over another is discovered (IV breeding, EV training, chained shinies vs randomly encountered, etc) The difference is the scale of effect RNGing has.

Wonderful post. Much better said than how I did.


The RNG method appeals to people who want power over others. That is why I believe it is almost entirely unfair.

Way to speak for a few hundred/thousand people and make them seem like power hungry jerks.


We can only pray that in the future Nintendo will make RNG manipulation so complex as to be virtually impossible.

*sigh*Nintendo doesn't make the games.

TheFightingPikachu
8th November 2009, 2:39 AM
Go to serebiiforums.com. There is much more to do here than trade and battle. Maybe you didn't notice.
That's probably the main thing I disagree with in ShinySandshrew's post. Sorry Bro.



Don't see this as a problem because..well, look here. Most of SPPF are (no offense, d00ds) confused by the concept of EVs and IVs. The fact is there's a battling community for everyone, and you can easily find any type of battling if you look hard enough. I really don't think that's true. Most people I've seen on this website seem to know a lot more than the few Pokemon fans I've met in person. Also, if these people don't understand IVs and EVs, how can they understand RNG manipulation? Not everyone can RNG manipulate because not everyone has a random shiny they caught themselves. (Is there a way to find your secret ID that absolutely everyone can use? Tell me if there is.)



Trade forums are a cesspool anyway. I don't want to flame other Pokemon web sites, so I won't name names, but people seem to get very insular. IE if they only see Alamos Darkrais with a Quirky, Modest, and Jolly nature on whateverforums.com, then they'll all be going "HAXORS! Adamant Darkrai from ALAMOS isn't possible!" I've rarely had good experiences with trading in large websites. I've had much better deals on smaller sites. You've got a good point. Trade forums are full of junk (as well as rulebreakers). But I've gotten some exceptionally good trades. You appear to be blowing the trade forum difficulties out of proportion.

This is somewhat off topic, but...

*sigh*Nintendo doesn't make the games. Yes, I do know that Game Freak is the developer. Nintendo might not be the developer, but they have a lot of control over the games. Perhaps you didn't notice that it says Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection right in the game. They don't even need a trademark symbol. Did you realize that the clown in Veilstone City who says, "A winner is you!" when you win his challenge is making a Legend of Zelda reference?

Hurricos
8th November 2009, 3:13 AM
I was previously set on the thought that RNG abuse was in the category of hacking but, that was only because I couldn't figure it out for myself even though I've tried several times but to no success. So now my thinking and reasoning is that RNG abuse is not hacking because it's just part of the game's mechanics and it was only a matter of time before someone cracked it. One could compare this as to the game mechanics behind finding a shiny with the pokeradar, the ratio of finding a shiny is maximized after reaching 40 to allow for shinies to be easily found. So that's my take on this whole RNG matter, good luck to all who wish to learn the way of breeding for flawless pokemon.

randomspot555
8th November 2009, 3:19 AM
I really don't think that's true. Most people I've seen on this website seem to know a lot more than the few Pokemon fans I've met in person. Also, if these people don't understand IVs and EVs, how can they understand RNG manipulation? Not everyone can RNG manipulate because not everyone has a random shiny they caught themselves. (Is there a way to find your secret ID that absolutely everyone can use? Tell me if there is.)

Venture outside of the Battle forum, Trade forum, or CRMT. GPD especially, there's a thread here every month or so where they complain about EVs and IVs and now I gotta do this and why can't I just RAISE MY POKEMON WITH LOVE YOU CAN DO IT TORTERRA I BELIEVE IN YOU.

Admittedly, these come in two flavors: Young fans who discovered something they haven't tried to understand, and older fans under the illusion that Gen I/II didn't have any advance game mechanics.

Remember that even though many of these advance game mechanics are poorly kept secrets (IE the various in-game hints at them), they're rarely, if ever, fully explained.

And then you bring up another point: Those people in real life. You know, the 95% of the fandom who don't hang out on the Internet. They may even be as big of fans as us, they just don't post here. I saw a little girl today, couldn't be older than 8, getting Arceus. You think she's ever heard of Effort Values, or noticed that the Effort Ribbon is because her Pokemon has the max amount of EVs applied? She probably just thinks it's a ribbon for doing a GREAT JOB at raising her Pokemon.

Besides a handful of interviews (and from what I heard, the Platinum game guide explains EVs, though I don't know how in detail it does) and Masuda's blog, these mechanics aren't explained by official sources. I think it's a very safe bet for me to say that most of the fandom, even those online, especially younger, more casual players, don't bother wtih EVs, and offline, haven't heard of them.


You've got a good point. Trade forums are full of junk (as well as rulebreakers). But I've gotten some exceptionally good trades. You appear to be blowing the trade forum difficulties out of proportion.

Well this scarcity thing just makes me irritated. A Pokemon with a certain date is more rare? How do they know? Did they collect all of them and record the dates? You go to one forum, and X, Y, and Z are rare and A, B, C everyone has, and another forum, it's just the opposite. TRU ARCEUS is in high demand now, and in a month, everyone will have one. I'd be in a much more communal fashion of trading, which is what I do in my small group of Poke-fans elsewhere. We trade legit eggs from breeding projects, give out spare events, etc... We don't have the illusion that something is the rarez0rs or anything like that.

But that's for another topic I guess.


This is somewhat off topic, but...
Yes, I do know that Game Freak is the developer. Nintendo might not be the developer, but they have a lot of control over the games. Perhaps you didn't notice that it says Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection right in the game. They don't even need a trademark symbol. Did you realize that the clown in Veilstone City who says, "A winner is you!" when you win his challenge is making a Legend of Zelda reference?

I'm sure Nintendo can exert some control over the games if they want, but most major corporations know that when you pretty much buy out a third party, it's because you see them doing good work. And the best way to ensure that good work to continue is hands-off. You know, like Disney and Miramax. Disney didn't try to clean up Miramax's act, they just didn't put the Micky Mouse logo on their films. I have never heard of Nintendo exerting any control over the Pokemon franchise, as far as the GF core games are made.

You hire someone else because you want them to do something that you can't. Having them conform to your way of business is pointless, because you can already do that yourself.

It says Nintendo WFC because I bet it's the same servers that handle all the other Nintendo products that use wireless communications.

And the (former) translator of the series, Nob Ogasawara, pretty much translated everything himself except for names of Pokemon and main characters. He loves slipping in references to Internet memes (My Pokemon is Flight), pop culture (your reference), idiot/chatspeak (noob) and so on. It COULD be the same phrase in the Japanese edition, but I doubt it.

Arande
8th November 2009, 3:39 AM
(Is there a way to find your secret ID that absolutely everyone can use? Tell me if there is.)


Actually there is. The recent version of RNG reporter can calculate the possible SID's from a chained shiny. Adding more shiny pokes from taht chain, it can narrow down the possibilities to the one you want.

Everyone has the opportunity to chain, therefore everyone has the opportunity to find their SID

~Spacial_Rendation~
8th November 2009, 3:52 AM
Hacking is the use of an outside adivice that is neither made, published or endorsed by Nintendo and can be considered Illigal.

RNG is an expliot in the game's code that can get you the Pokemon you want right off the bat and is fully legal because it doesn't include the use of an exteral device.

Do the Math.

randomspot555
8th November 2009, 4:01 AM
Actually there is. The recent version of RNG reporter can calculate the possible SID's from a chained shiny. Adding more shiny pokes from taht chain, it can narrow down the possibilities to the one you want.

Everyone has the opportunity to chain, therefore everyone has the opportunity to find their SID

Everyone has the ability to get a non-chained shiny too. It'll take a lot of patience, luck, and possibly time, but no game has a tag on it that says THERE SHALL NEVER BE A SHINY HERE.

girazard
8th November 2009, 5:05 AM
It's definitely not hacking, in the sense that most people view it, but it is definitely cheating in my book.
The people who are supporting it are mainly using these reasons:

1. Anyone can do it.
2. You're not using an external device.

Well, I know several people who cheat at cards, and it is so easy that anyone can do it. Does that make it legitimate? Of course not. You are manipulating the game so it makes it easier for you to win. And even if you're not using a device, the end result is more or less the same, something that would not have happened if you did it legitimately. Manipulating data is synonymous with cheating it.

RNG can't exactly be compared with SRing, as some people are doing, because Nintendo/Gamefreak makes it extremely obvious that you can do RNG and that it is fair. They even recomend it in their strategy guides. Nintendo obviously intended people to use SR, while they have not acknowledged RNG at all, so they didn't intend people to do it at all.

Also, without RNG, battles would be a lot more interesting because no one would be able to tell exactly how much damage an attack does, or anything along those lines. By not assuming that their opponent's Pokemon are fully IVed and EVed, which RNG encourages, people can't map out how a battle will go before they even do it, which makes the game more predictable, and hence, more fun. Having fun is what Satoshi Tajiri intended to do with Pokemon all those years ago, after all.

Hydrohs
8th November 2009, 5:10 AM
Well, I know several people who cheat at cards, and it is so easy that anyone can do it. Does that make it legitimate? Of course not. You are manipulating the game so it makes it easier for you to win. And even if you're not using a device, the end result is more or less the same, something that would not have happened if you did it legitimately. Manipulating data is synonymous with cheating it.

It's there, why not use it? Cheating in cards is against the rules of the game. Using the RNG is against no rules and is really no different than say, EV training.



RNG can't exactly be compared with SRing, as some people are doing, because Nintendo/Gamefreak makes it extremely obvious that you can do RNG and that it is fair. They even recomend it in their strategy guides. Nintendo obviously intended people to use SR, while they have not acknowledged RNG at all, so they didn't intend people to do it at all.

I'm going to assume you mixed up some words here, anyway: It was the same with EV training, initially Gamefreak never said anything about it, but players used it to their advantage.



Also, without RNG, battles would be a lot more interesting because no one would be able to tell exactly how much damage an attack does, or anything along those lines. By not assuming that their opponent's Pokemon are fully IVed and EVed, which RNG encourages, people can't map out how a battle will go before they even do it, which makes the game more predictable, and hence, more fun. Having fun is what Satoshi Tajiri intended to do with Pokemon all those years ago, after all.

Wihtout RNG the game would not function. Wihtout RNG people would know EXACTLY how a battle would turn out because it would have to be scripted. Without RNG EVERYTHING would be predictable. Predictability is not fun, spontaneity is fun.

girazard
8th November 2009, 5:39 AM
Nintendo/Gamefreak makes it extremely obvious that you can do RNG

I'm going to assume you mixed up some words here, anyway

Thanks for pointing out my error; I meant to say "Nintendo/Gamefreak makes it extremely obvious that you can do SR and that it is fair."


Wihtout RNG the game would not function. Wihtout RNG people would know EXACTLY how a battle would turn out because it would have to be scripted. Without RNG EVERYTHING would be predictable. Predictability is not fun, spontaneity is fun.

Actually, RNG gives you perfect IVs, meaning that you know what your opponent's stats are, which can help you know if incoming moves will OHKO, or 2HKO; how is this predictable?


It's there, why not use it? Cheating in cards is against the rules of the game. Using the RNG is against no rules and is really no different than say, EV training.

Oh yes it is. Even with EV training you can still not get perfect stats, most probably because it is nearly impossible to do EV training from levels 1-15. And Nintendo do reveal the existence of Evs in the game in the form of the Power Items which give you 4 evs in a certain stat.

Hydrohs
8th November 2009, 5:47 AM
Actually, RNG gives you perfect IVs, meaning that you know what your opponent's stats are, which can help you know if incoming moves will OHKO, or 2HKO; how is this predictable?

You only know what your opponents stats are if they tell you, otherwise you have no idea. You're speaking of something being predictable, and then asking how it is predictable. Care to explain?



Oh yes it is. Even with EV training you can still not get perfect stats, most probably because it is nearly impossible to do EV training from levels 1-15. And Nintendo do reveal the existence of Evs in the game in the form of the Power Items which give you 4 evs in a certain stat.

It's easy to get perfect stats, it's easy to EV train from 1-15. Or even at 99-100 with the berries that reduce EVs. I also said Gamefreak didn't say anything about EVs. The have always been around. It was until recently that they started mentioning them in the games and in Guide Books, of which they still aren't explained fully.

Arande
8th November 2009, 6:00 AM
Everyone has the ability to get a non-chained shiny too. It'll take a lot of patience, luck, and possibly time, but no game has a tag on it that says THERE SHALL NEVER BE A SHINY HERE.

Yeah, but people keep bringing up how it isn't fair to those who haven't found a random shiny.

And no, RNG does not give you any clue about your opponent. There is no way to know their IV's, or how their EV's are distributed, or of a lucky crit is about to happen, etc. Heck, you can't even predict the % variance of damage a move does (all attacks do 85-100% damage)

Even then, hinting about something is not giving full details about it. The power items say it promotes (stat) growth, it doesn't say "increases EV gain by 4, or 8 if you have 'rus) Heck, the only ingame hint of what pokerus does is "it is a virus that helps a pokemon grow stronger" or something of that nature.

wichu
8th November 2009, 12:28 PM
You don't even need to catch a shiny anymore to find your SID. The trainer and secret IDs are generated randomly; i.e. they also use a RNG. If you know when you started your save file to the nearest minute, you can calculate your SID using the time the game was started and your trainer ID. Obviously, this is only going to help if you're starting a new game, but it's a lot easier than finding a shiny :P

However, I think we can consider casual and competitive battling as two different games. RNG abuse would most likely be considered cheating in casual play, similarly to how some people refuse to play against EV-trainers; however, in competitive play (for example, the Video Game Championships), the majority of players will have perfect Pok&#233;mon through RNG or hacking. Although from a casual gamer's point of view, it's still cheating, from the point of view of the other competitive battlers, RNG is fair game. It's a bit like an adult playing in an under-9s football match; that is clearly cheating, but the same adult playing the same game on a standard team is not.
Speaking of the VGCs, many players used RNGed Pok&#233;mon there. The Pok&#233;mon Company did not do anything to prevent this, despite knowing about RNG abuse and how you can get perfect Pok&#233;mon. This suggests that they do not think of RNG abuse as cheating.

Girazard: I think you and Hydrohs are misunderstanding each other (maybe on purpose). Girazard, I understand you are referring to RNG abuse, right? The RNG is just a formula which generates random numbers; the lack of a RNG in general would mean the game would be incapable of generating random numbers, hence Hydrohs' point about battles becoming 'scripted'.

TheFightingPikachu
8th November 2009, 9:54 PM
Is there a way to find your secret ID that absolutely everyone can use? Tell me if there is.


Actually there is. The recent version of RNG reporter can calculate the possible SID's from a chained shiny. Adding more shiny pokes from taht chain, it can narrow down the possibilities to the one you want.

Everyone has the opportunity to chain, therefore everyone has the opportunity to find their SID

But does everyone have a shiny (random or chained)? No, not everyone does. Having the chance-based opportunity to have the opportunity to be able to do something is not the same as being able to do it right now!


You don't even need to catch a shiny anymore to find your SID. The trainer and secret IDs are generated randomly; i.e. they also use a RNG. If you know when you started your save file to the nearest minute, you can calculate your SID using the time the game was started and your trainer ID. Obviously, this is only going to help if you're starting a new game, but it's a lot easier than finding a shiny :P
Okay, this sounds a bit more fair, considering te fact that everyone did start the game at some point! But I must ask, does this refer to when you start up your DS, when you punch the "New Game" button, when you get into the game (after some prof. introduces it...lol), or when you get your Pokemon?

Noctourniquet
8th November 2009, 10:09 PM
Oh yes it is. Even with EV training you can still not get perfect stats, most probably because it is nearly impossible to do EV training from levels 1-15. And Nintendo do reveal the existence of Evs in the game in the form of the Power Items which give you 4 evs in a certain stat.
No... they don't XD
Where in that item's description does it say "Increases the EV Gain in <Stat> by 4 when A Pok&#233;mon is defeated or caught"?



Actually there is. The recent version of RNG reporter can calculate the possible SID's from a chained shiny. Adding more shiny pokes from taht chain, it can narrow down the possibilities to the one you want.

Everyone has the opportunity to chain, therefore everyone has the opportunity to find their SID
Ok. I'm going to be difficult here...
1.) Not everyone has a shiny. Even from chaining.
2.) Not everyone has a computer that can run RNG Reporter.

randomspot555
8th November 2009, 10:34 PM
1.) Not everyone has a shiny. Even from chaining.

But they CAN get one. It may take a lot of time, and certainly a lot of patience and luck, but it's entirely possible.


2.) Not everyone has a computer that can run RNG Reporter.

RNG Reporter is not some overtly complex program. If someone is affluent enough to own a Nintendo DS, (likely) multiple Pokemon games and other games and even other video game systems, etc... then it's pretty safe to say if they don't have a personal computer, they at least have access to one.

ShinySandshrew
8th November 2009, 11:27 PM
Go to serebiiforums.com. There is much more to do here than trade and battle. Maybe you didn't notice.

No one died and made you dictator of SPPF. People can come here for whatever reason they want, because there are forums here for just about every segment of Pokemon fandoms.

I stand corrected. You are completely right about the forums.

I'm not going to say that this proves my point, but look at what the poll says, "RNG abusing, Hacking or not?" Why does it say abusing? Why do we call it abusing? Now I know that term probably originated with some who thinks using the RNG for gain is bad. Here's a question: If your not going to use RNG manipulation for gain, why would you use it?

Blue Raja
9th November 2009, 12:07 AM
Ah yes, the conundrum of random number generation. Programers still have no way to generate truly random numbers. Therefore number generators are predictable.

So What.

Every aspect of chess is completely predictable. There are only 64 squares on the board. Half are black and half are white. There are only 6 kinds of pieces to move. Seems like it should be easy to predict. But the most sophisticated super-computers still lose to human champions.

Pokemon has far more permutations than chess. Breeding to perfection helps but rarely guarantees wins. The best players seek every advantage. But ultimately the mechanics of the game dictate outcomes. Nothing could be more fair. As long as the data bits in question fall within the parameters of the code, than all is fair.

Using athletics as a metaphor; of course the best athletes lift weights, watch film etc. That brings out the best in competition.
Just knowing the math can only take you so far in pokemon. Athleticism only takes you so far on the pitch/field/rink/diamond. That is why Peyton Manning wins on Sunday! There are better athletes then Peyton-but he always seems to beat them.

Pokemon are collected data stored on computer chips. Millions of people have exactly the same access to those chips. Please don't think you have something with value beyond the eyes of the beholder. It is great fun, I personally have farted away, far to many hours, trying to master a "children’s" game.

Relax-a spiritomb with wondergaurd is cheating-and pointless! A "shiner" poke with huge IV's is just FUN!

randomspot555
9th November 2009, 12:18 AM
Here's a question: If your not going to use RNG manipulation for gain, why would you use it?

What's the point of asking it?

If you're wondering what's the point of making this information known, just like the numerous other mechanics, it's completely fascinating how much effort and thought goes into a portion of what is pretty much otherwise a standard children's RPG.



Pokemon has far more permutations than chess. Breeding to perfection helps but rarely guarantees wins. The best players seek every advantage. But ultimately the mechanics of the game dictate outcomes. Nothing could be more fair. As long as the data bits in question fall within the parameters of the code, than all is fair.

Using athletics as a metaphor; of course the best athletes lift weights, watch film etc. That brings out the best in competition.
Just knowing the math can only take you so far in pokemon. Athleticism only takes you so far on the pitch/field/rink/diamond. That is why Peyton Manning wins on Sunday! There are better athletes then Peyton-but he always seems to beat them.

Pokemon are collected data stored on computer chips. Millions of people have exactly the same access to those chips. Please don't think you have something with value beyond the eyes of the beholder. It is great fun, I personally have farted away, far to many hours, trying to master a "children’s" game.

Relax-a spiritomb with wondergaurd is cheating-and pointless! A "shiner" poke with huge IV's is just FUN!

This is a very good point. Yes, having higher IVs can be a slight advantage in a battle, but there's so many other factors going on then who has the better stats. Overall strategy, the chemistry of the team...you know, human thought, and even the random chance of a critical hit or an unexpected freeze. I'm not saying that Trainer A's Beautifly is going to be taking down Trainer B's Garchomp any time soon. But most of the time, a battle isn't decided by how many hours one spent soft re-setting for a Timid Shaymin, but by the skill displayed on the battle field (and in some cases, an extreme amount of luck/hax).

Alpha Gamer
9th November 2009, 12:29 AM
Sounds like cheating, but it's not *shrugs*

Hydrohs
9th November 2009, 2:06 AM
Okay, this sounds a bit more fair, considering te fact that everyone did start the game at some point! But I must ask, does this refer to when you start up your DS, when you punch the "New Game" button, when you get into the game (after some prof. introduces it...lol), or when you get your Pokemon?

It's at the point when you select New Game.

Arande
9th November 2009, 3:03 AM
But they CAN get one. It may take a lot of time, and certainly a lot of patience and luck, but it's entirely possible.


Beat me to that. Finding a shiny or not boils down to luck. You can improve your chances, but it's still luck.

People have SRd countless of times for a shiny legend to no avail. Then there's me who decides to see what moltres looks like in HG, and what do you know, first encounter without intentionally trying, and it's shiny. You've heard the phrase "lady luck is very fickle" yes?

wichu
9th November 2009, 5:03 PM
Okay, this sounds a bit more fair, considering te fact that everyone did start the game at some point! But I must ask, does this refer to when you start up your DS, when you punch the "New Game" button, when you get into the game (after some prof. introduces it...lol), or when you get your Pokemon?
It's when you press A to dismiss the TV program (Red Gyarados/Rowan's speech). You'll also need to know roughly how long you spent in the intro sequence before this (between starting up the game and pressing A to dismiss the TV); divide this by 60 (the DS runs at 60 FPS) to get roughly the frame your ID was generated on. Using ID Finder to search for a few hundred frames either side of that, you should get a single result.

2.) Not everyone has a computer that can run RNG Reporter.
Technically, it's possible to RNG abuse with just a pencil and paper. All RNG Reporter does is automate the complicated calculations involved.
I may have to do a demonstration of this at some point :P

TheFightingPikachu
9th November 2009, 7:05 PM
But I must ask, does this refer to when you start up your DS, when you punch the "New Game" button, when you get into the game (after some prof. introduces it...lol), or when you get your Pokemon?

It's at the point when you select New Game.

It's when you press A to dismiss the TV program (Red Gyarados/Rowan's speech). You'll also need to know roughly how long you spent in the intro sequence before this (between starting up the game and pressing A to dismiss the TV); divide this by 60 (the DS runs at 60 FPS) to get roughly the frame your ID was generated on. Using ID Finder to search for a few hundred frames either side of that, you should get a single result.

Okay, now I'm in a pickle. Let me ask you wichu--how do you know your starting point is the correct one? Does anyone know what the starting point is in HG/SS? That is the only new game I will be starting anytime soon (soon being a relative term because I'm waiting until the US release).

Tiomasta
9th November 2009, 10:27 PM
I was previously set on the thought that RNG abuse was in the category of hacking but, that was only because I couldn't figure it out for myself even though I've tried several times but to no success. So now my thinking and reasoning is that RNG abuse is not hacking because it's just part of the game's mechanics and it was only a matter of time before someone cracked it. One could compare this as to the game mechanics behind finding a shiny with the pokeradar, the ratio of finding a shiny is maximized after reaching 40 to allow for shinies to be easily found. So that's my take on this whole RNG matter, good luck to all who wish to learn the way of breeding for flawless pokemon.

It's completely different.
The programmers didn't do the RNG so you could abuse it, but they did program chaining for you to get shinies.


Sounds like cheating, but it's not *shrugs*

Of course it is.

arceus7
9th November 2009, 10:34 PM
if your going on about how Rng abuse is hacking or cheating then you clearly did not read the very good posts here. thats within your grasp in a matter of moments. I commend hydrohs and all those who took part in the small debate.

DUCKAtl
9th November 2009, 11:19 PM
in my opinion if you hack legal stats using say Pokesav, and give it everything a regular poke has like date it was met, where, ev's, items, possible moves, i think its fine but once we cross over into a Blissey with all 31 IV, 255 for all Ev's, ****ing Leftovers, and all OHKO moves it becomes pure cheating

Hydrohs
9th November 2009, 11:32 PM
It's completely different.
The programmers didn't do the RNG so you could abuse it, but they did program chaining for you to get shinies.



Of course it is.

When something is put into a game people are going to find other uses for it. it doesn't make it cheating at all. When Gamefreak made these games they probably didn't think of half the strategies currently in use, does that make our competitive metagame cheating? No it doesn't. It is in the game, we are using it. It is not cheating by any definition.

Coolwonder
10th November 2009, 2:53 AM
You people aren't thinking about HOW MUCH, as in what level of hacking would you put RNG TO? Would you put it up there with AR and Pokesav? Or is it just the simple "external device" stuff I've been coming to. Then thinking is it game wrong or morally wrong.

Coolwonder
10th November 2009, 3:00 AM
Put it this way, have you RNGed before or not. If not then consider trying before making assumptions

Hydrohs
10th November 2009, 3:02 AM
You people aren't thinking about HOW MUCH, as in what level of hacking would you put RNG TO? Would you put it up there with AR and Pokesav? Or is it just the simple "external device" stuff I've been coming to. Then thinking is it game wrong or morally wrong.

It's definitely not game wrong, and morals are entirely subjective. In my opinion something like RNG is not against any morals, no one is hurt by it so why stop its use?

Coolwonder
10th November 2009, 3:04 AM
It's definitely not game wrong, and morals are entirely subjective. In my opinion something like RNG is not against any morals, no one is hurt by it so why stop its use?
I guess it depends on the person responding and what morals or codes they abide to. I seriously don't think RNG is against my morals and is perfectly fine and you are using something within game bounds

Troggy
10th November 2009, 7:09 PM
**Before I proceed, I know you covered many of my points later in your post. This isn't all specifically to you, but a general message**
The "value" of shinies has been a complete hoax. Considering that only a small portion can actually use digital legality checking programs (And an even smaller portion, regulated by the official tournaments, can use official hack checking machines), most people can only tell a hack vs a legit Pokemon by the visible summary data.

Ever since Gen I, there's been a cloning method. In Emerald, it's extremely easy to clone. In Gen 4, GTS can clone, and there's still a Gen I-esque risk method for cloning during a trade. And of course, there's Action Replay cloning. All of these, at least on the surface, appear as perfect copies of the original Pokemon.

Add in the increase use of soft-resetting, chaining, and the Masuda method, and even legit shinies have been extremely devalued by the game developers themselves.

I think the "value"/"economy" of trading Pokemon is something that turns off a lot of people while trading. IT's basically what burned me out. It was only long after I learned a lot that I knew most of my Pokemon were, at best, cloned, and most likely hacked.

It's true. However, there is still a large market for shinies regardless of what forum you are on. Collecters, new players, regardless of who it is, are hunting for shinies. I guess my point is, that between RNG'ing and cloning, there are very few unique shinies being passed around, and they are just less exciting to get.

I know shinies in general are more common, but that doesn't automatically make good natured/IV'd/egg moved shinies more available. That's what RNG does. The Masuda method is garbage since you can't control nature, chaining doesn't let you do Egg Moves or IVs, random encounters are obviously random as is soft resetting (synchronize can do nature if you are lucky). The exponential increase of 'playable' shinies is something that RNG is responsible for.

Quick side story. I have my SID and can RNG. I choose not to RNG for IVs because I enjoy breeding the regular way, and I don't mind having good but not perfect Pokemon (just more fun that way for me). However, I have dabbled a bit in making things shiny (a total of twice, now). I was messing around and decided to make a Timid Shiny Misdreavus. I did the RNG process, got the egg locked, and then started resetting for good IVs. It only took me 2 resets to get IVs of 31/26/20/30/31/30. So in an hour or so, I had a completely useable shiny Misdreavus. Granted I didn't have the perfect Hidden Power since I didn't RNG its IVs, but it's just that easy for anyone to do something similar.

The game has made shinies easier to get, but it's depressing to see the same ones offered over and over again. No one even bothers to try and get another one, since something better has been RNG'd and cloned for all. The only shinies that I get that aren't cloned are either a) freshly RNG'd or b) sucky. That's the fact of it.


I mean, I hang out with a group of Pokemon fans at another forum. Every dozen or so pages, we talk about our incredibly bad luck of never finding shinies even during chaining. The fact is, most people don't RNG, or even attempt to chain that often or Masuda method enough for them. I honestly think it's a small portion of Pokemon players that do this.

Same for me, actually. I have not seen any random shinies, or shinies during chains in my 385+ hours on Diamond. I have hatched thousands of eggs, trained many Pokemon, even had some long chains, but nothing at all.


Don't see this as a problem because..well, look here. Most of SPPF are (no offense, d00ds) confused by the concept of EVs and IVs. The fact is there's a battling community for everyone, and you can easily find any type of battling if you look hard enough.

I know there are a lot of people out there that don't care about the intricacies of the game. My point is that in competitive battle circles, hacking is usually frowned upon. What RNG is doing though, is producing 'hack' quality Pokemon using a game mechanic. If I were to battle with an AR hacked standard team against one that was completely RNG'd, there wouldn't hardly be a difference. Obviously this kind of situation doesn't apply to the masses.


And if that's what people want then that's how it should be. But Jumpman and co from Smogon aren't hiring Yakuza to eliminate other forms of battling. I can still hop on PBR and face whatever gimmick team or overpowered ubers I feel like.

Again, a bit of a niche market I know. I should have been more clear about the perspective of my comments.


Trade forums are a cesspool anyway. I don't want to flame other Pokemon web sites, so I won't name names, but people seem to get very insular. IE if they only see Alamos Darkrais with a Quirky, Modest, and Jolly nature on whateverforums.com, then they'll all be going "HAXORS! Adamant Darkrai from ALAMOS isn't possible!" I've rarely had good experiences with trading in large websites. I've had much better deals on smaller sites.

You couldn't be more right. Most traders don't own anything of their own creation these days. They started out with a random shiny and maybe an AR, and now they have cloned and distributed enough things to have every event, shiny, legend, etc they could ever want. There are people like that on all boards.

Tiomasta
10th November 2009, 9:24 PM
When something is put into a game people are going to find other uses for it. it doesn't make it cheating at all. When Gamefreak made these games they probably didn't think of half the strategies currently in use, does that make our competitive metagame cheating? No it doesn't. It is in the game, we are using it. It is not cheating by any definition.

You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Arande
10th November 2009, 10:00 PM
You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Got a question for you. WHO determined this? Did GameFreak say that? or did other players?

We've already discussed about how they said they add mechanics to be discovered, and it's been mentioned how they changed the 4th gen RNG to be player controllable, rather than constantly running like 3rd gen.

randomspot555
10th November 2009, 10:05 PM
You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That exact same argument has been used for every single game mechanic. It's complete bull.

The producers of the games aren't idiots. They know full well exactly what they are doing when creating the systems for breeding, battling, etc...

In interviews, they said they put in these game mechanics so fans who are dedicated enough to say, the battling aspect of Pokemon, can get more out of it and discover it themselves. That's why they don't make them a core part of the 8 gyms + E4 main game, and only drop subtle hints, if any, in regards to the game mechanics.

Hydrohs
10th November 2009, 10:46 PM
You don't seem to know what you're talking about. I mean, the RNG was never supposed to be abused at all, PEOPLE WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW THE RNG WORKS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Arande and randomspot555 beat me to it, but again: The creators don't tell us anything really. Almost everything we currently do we have discovered ourselves. IVs, EVs, Everstone tricks etc. All of that was discovered by the players. RNG is just another discovery.

gregjammer
10th November 2009, 10:55 PM
It's not hacking unless an external device like AR is involved, so no, rng abuse is not hacking...

Amplify
19th November 2009, 4:32 AM
It's like using a database to know the EVs of a Starly or an IV calculator.



Except that hiding an ace on your sleeve while playing cards or making all your moves critical hits will help you win. RNG abusing is getting something legit but much faster. Once, thanks to the RNG abuse, I got a Shiny Charizard with 31 IVs in Special Attack and Modest nature. I could've got a Pokémon like that if I had bred it, but of course I'm not going to waste my time SRing over a million times just to get it. It won't affect the game, that Charizard can be obtained if you SR over a million times, and therefore, my rival has no right to blame me.

Seriously guys, I don't know why you're all so concerned about what's hacking and what's not. If I hack my game to get a Pokémon with legit stats and moves, why do you even care? I don't have any kind of advantage, and since I only want to fight I don't know why I have to catch/breed thousands of Pokémon just to get one I could get faster. The same with RNG abusing, although you still need to EV train that Pokémon.

But even then, RNG abusing can't be considered hacking. We all can do it, we're not using external devices and we're not making our Pokémon stronger (well, we are, but not stronger than possible). The only arguments here are that "you're not supposed to do it" and "it's hidden therefore it's hacking!". Well, are you supposed to SR? I don't think so. Are you supposed to breed your way to perfection? I don't think so. You could even argue if you're supposed to EV train. But does that mean that we can't do it? Of course not.

When you abuse the RNG you're just using maths to know how you can get a Pokémon faster. I don't know why anyone could possibly be against it.
THIS. For the love of god, this so hard.


the RNG method can be done by hand (done it by hand myself twice in fact), dosn't alter the game data in any way shape or form and the results arn't just "like" or "indentical to" what you would get without ever hearing of the RNG method, they ARE the same results.

Either The RNG method is not legitimate & neither is selective breeding, training for EVs, soft resetting or anything else and the only way to legitimately get pokemon is to use the FIRST one you catch or breed, or all that stuff is legitimate and so is the RNG method.


Really, I can't imagine how clueless somebody must be or what they are like in real life to think that it is "hacking" :/ It's nowhere near the right word, the game designers didn't intend for you to soft reset for eggs IVs or even EV train perfectly either. The closest you can really call it is taking advantage of how the game itself works, no "hacks" involved.


*edit*
I'll just quote the dictionary on the word "hacking", since there's a number of people in the thread (hi there Shadow Gamer) who seem to be confused over what the word even means.


hack 1 (hk)
v. hacked, hack·ing, hacks
v.tr.
1. To cut or chop with repeated and irregular blows: hacked down the saplings.
2. To break up the surface of (soil).
3.
a. Informal To alter (a computer program): hacked her text editor to read HTML.
b. To gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or without authorization: hacked the firm's personnel database.
4. Slang To cut or mutilate as if by hacking: hacked millions off the budget.
5. Slang To cope with successfully; manage: couldn't hack a second job.

Are any computer programs altered? - NO (and I'm not talking about "altering" in the same way that I'm altering this post right now, if I could edit somebody else's post then I would be hacking because I'm not supposed to be able to do that, but it's well within how this forum works to allow me to edit my own post. Same thing with RNGing.)
Were any computers accessed without them being supposedly inaccesssible? - NO

English 101.

cannibaleyes
19th November 2009, 8:51 PM
I feel the need to rant on this subject, because I've read forums on it and it's starting make my head spin... Or rather, the flawed thought process of the people involved in this debate is making my head spin.

I read a forum on Smogon where someone brought up a lot of (IMO) valid arguments... They said that they refuted them all, but I'd seriously like to know HOW. Granted, that forum was more debating over whether or not it is cheating, not hacking. I would have posted there, but the thread isn't open anymore.

Yes, I know that whatever I say will never get through the thick skulls of elitists who are too smart to see the simple logic ad common sense of perfectly valid arguments, but I can at least try.

My main argument is that a RANDOM number generator is SUPPOSED to be random. And before you start, yes, I know that it is impossible to program one that actually is random. But that is exactly my point. It is impossible to program one that is random, therefore, programmers can only make them very complex, so that they appear to be random. If programmers intended for players to get exactly what they wanted every time, then they wouldn't have even bothered with a complex RNG system. The PRNG is there so that getting exactly what you want isn't guaranteed, and getting the desired results depends on a bit of luck.

Of course there are going to be hardcore people that crack the programming. The programmers know there are people like that out there. But there's not a lot that they can do about it, because the nature of programming is that any program can theoretically be cracked. However, programmers expect that a majority of people are not crazy enough to attempt to do this.

By manipulating the RNG to land on a known value, it removes the random element of it. Sure, it was never random in the first place, but if you wouldn't have calculated coin flips/spreads/timings, etc., it would at least seem more random because the average player would not know what was going to happen.

So, although it isn't directly altering the code by forcing it to do things that it wouldn't normally do, it's still cheating because you are altering it in the sense that you are making sure the code is exactly the way you want it, when it was intended to seem as random as possible.

Sorry, I just fail to understand how people can honestly argue that exploiting a RANDOM number generator to make it not random is how the game was intended to be played. "But it's not actually random at all, so it was meant to be exploited" is an invalid argument. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make it random. If they could make it random, then they would. But they can't, so they can only do the next best thing and make it as seemingly random as possible.

It's kind of like glitches, I suppose. Granted, glitches are like mistakes that weren't meant to be in the programming, so they are a little different. Like the cloning glitch in Emerald, for example. It's there, it's easy to exploit, but I doubt that it was intentionally meant to be exploited.

So.... In conclusion, my opinion is that it's not REALLY hacking, but it's exploiting the game in a way that it was never meant to be exploited. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with RNG exploiting, or exploiting glitches such as the cloning glitch. It just bothers me when people act like "Oh, I'm not doing anything wrong, the programming was just there, begging to be cracked.. It's part of how the game's supposed to work!" because that is BS, for lack of a better term. Sure, it's how the game works, but it wasn't written so that people could crack it and exploit it.

And to the people that argue : "SRing, IVs, EVs, breeding, etc. is doing the same thing because we wouldn't have known any of that without the help of computer nerds either! It's the same!" Yes, it is. Just to a slightly lesser extent because most of these things (IVs, EVS) are somewhat hinted to in-game. Which implies that the programmers did intend that some gamers would figure it out.

So, in conclusion to the conclusion...
RNG exploiting is cheating, just like the cloning glitch in Emerald is cheating, just like SRing is exploiting the game in a way that wasn't intended (yes, I know I'm stretching this one for most people... Bear with me here). But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't and won't be done. I don't care if people RNG exploit; they are going to do it regardless of what anyone says. But get off your high horse and admit that you're a hardcore nerd for doing so.

And for the record, I would RNG exploit myself, but the RNG Reporter program thing doesn't work on Macs, and I'm not crazy enough to do all the math by hand.

Tyrannotaur
19th November 2009, 10:07 PM
In my personal opinion RNG Abuse is hacking. Yes you are not using Pokesav (for the most part, just for the secret ID) or a AR. You are basically forcing the RNG to work in your favor and skipping all the steps you normally would take. The developers never intended to have people discover this. You really are basically going against what the game would have you do normally and is thus hacking. Not hacking in the sense that you are going into the game and changing things around to gain an advantage, more in the sense that you are abusing something in the game to get a result you want. Much like glitch abuse.
I don't think its terrible or a dirty tactic, I just think it takes the fun out of the game. Sure I breed for natures and stuff but I've never had the patience to care for IVs. If that means I have a huge losing streak then OH WELL. I don't play these games to grind others into dust with my "Awesome Skillz" or my ability to "PWN NOOBS", I play because I enjoy the games, However if you enjoy abusing the RNG or breeding for perfect IVs then go right ahead. If others want to make the perfect pokemon then let them. I just think it kinda ruins the fun of the game. Also kinda gives actual Pokesav hackers the excuse to do what they do. Whenever I fight a whole team of shines I always think of the person as a hacker. Now if the person actually is a hacker and not a RNG abuser, they can use the excuse that "I'm not a hacker! I RNG abuse!" I can see alot of arguments similar to that happening. Not to mention this basically makes Shiny pokemon pointless.

And No EV training isn't the same thing. EV training is something advanced players where meant to use. The Macho Brace, Power Items, Pokerus, and other things the developers gave us prove this. Plus it mentions it in my players guides.

BTW is RNG abuse even possible in HG/SS since the Poketch isnt present?

TheFightingPikachu
19th November 2009, 10:40 PM
Sorry, I just fail to understand how people can honestly argue that exploiting a RANDOM number generator to make it not random is how the game was intended to be played. "But it's not actually random at all, so it was meant to be exploited" is an invalid argument. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make it random. If they could make it random, then they would. But they can't, so they can only do the next best thing and make it as seemingly random as possible.

Thank you very much for this insightful post! (I quoted the portion that most impressed me.) This is exactly the point that escapes so many people. How did the RNG manipulators conclude that this was indeed something that the game designers intended us to figure out? Everything I have seen indicates that they simply assumed this was just like all the other game mechanics. But it's not. But the RNG is more than just a game mechanic. With suficient knowledge, you could predict every interaction. Why should it stop at just breeding perfect shiny Pokemon?

I think most people would agree that this is not fair. I stand by my original statement that RNG manipulation is almost entirely unfair.

randomspot555
20th November 2009, 12:37 AM
My main argument is that a RANDOM number generator is SUPPOSED to be random. And before you start, yes, I know that it is impossible to program one that actually is random. But that is exactly my point. It is impossible to program one that is random, therefore, programmers can only make them very complex, so that they appear to be random. If programmers intended for players to get exactly what they wanted every time, then they wouldn't have even bothered with a complex RNG system. The PRNG is there so that getting exactly what you want isn't guaranteed, and getting the desired results depends on a bit of luck.

Of course there are going to be hardcore people that crack the programming. The programmers know there are people like that out there. But there's not a lot that they can do about it, because the nature of programming is that any program can theoretically be cracked. However, programmers expect that a majority of people are not crazy enough to attempt to do this.

By manipulating the RNG to land on a known value, it removes the random element of it. Sure, it was never random in the first place, but if you wouldn't have calculated coin flips/spreads/timings, etc., it would at least seem more random because the average player would not know what was going to happen.

So, although it isn't directly altering the code by forcing it to do things that it wouldn't normally do, it's still cheating because you are altering it in the sense that you are making sure the code is exactly the way you want it, when it was intended to seem as random as possible.

Sorry, I just fail to understand how people can honestly argue that exploiting a RANDOM number generator to make it not random is how the game was intended to be played. "But it's not actually random at all, so it was meant to be exploited" is an invalid argument. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make it random. If they could make it random, then they would. But they can't, so they can only do the next best thing and make it as seemingly random as possible.

The same argument of "they didn't make this intentionally so that fans can abuse it" has been said about every single game mechanic.

The programers of the game knew full well exactly what they are doing when designing every game mechanic. If they didn't want any of them to be used, they shouldn't have put them in. In fact, in interviews, they've said they intentionally put these mechanics in and let fans who like battling a lot discover it for themselves.


And to the people that argue : "SRing, IVs, EVs, breeding, etc. is doing the same thing because we wouldn't have known any of that without the help of computer nerds either! It's the same!" Yes, it is. Just to a slightly lesser extent because most of these things (IVs, EVS) are somewhat hinted to in-game. Which implies that the programmers did intend that some gamers would figure it out.

Except in earlier gens, where many of these mechanics (or at least similar predecessors) were there and not hinted at. I don't think the programmers at Game Freak are idiots. They know game codes can be read, and they also know that most game mechanics aren't necessary for the core game. Let fans figure it out for themselves for those who want to do so.



As far as I see it RNG Abuse is hacking.

Except it isn't.


Yes you are not using Pokesav (for the most part, just for the secret ID) or a AR.

You can determine your SID without hacking.

I also like how you stereotype some fans as "not having fun." Just because YOU don't like advance game mechanics doesn't mean those who do use them aren't having fun.

Tyrannotaur
20th November 2009, 2:47 AM
Except it isn't.
That's your opinion.



You can determine your SID without hacking.
I realize that.



I also like how you stereotype some fans as "not having fun." Just because YOU don't like advance game mechanics doesn't mean those who do use them aren't having fun.

I'm not stereotyping anyone. I am simply stating that it is my opinion that ensuring that all your pokemon are perfect soldiers exactly how you want them, takes the fun out of training and raising pokemon. I don't IV breed either. This is my Opinion, it may not hold true to others. Just how I feel. Don't put words in my mouth.
-;248;

randomspot555
20th November 2009, 3:07 AM
That's your opinion.

Hacking is altering the game and forcing it to do something that otherwise it can't legally do. This involves an external device. RNG is not hacking because there is no interaction with an external device and the game cart.

You can say it's cheating, you don't like it, etc..., that's opinion. However, hacking has a very clear definition, and to say RNG is hacking is at best a deception and misunderstanding the word and at worst, a lie.



I'm not stereotyping anyone.


I don't play these games to grind others into dust with my "Awesome Skillz" or my ability to "PWN NOOBS", I play to have fun.

You say you play to have fun in comparison to others, (not-so-subtly) implying that they aren't having fun.

Tyrannotaur
20th November 2009, 3:34 AM
Hacking is altering the game and forcing it to do something that otherwise it can't legally do. This involves an external device. RNG is not hacking because there is no interaction with an external device and the game cart.

You can say it's cheating, you don't like it, etc..., that's opinion. However, hacking has a very clear definition, and to say RNG is hacking is at best a deception and misunderstanding the word and at worst, a lie.

You are forcing the game to do something that it shouldn't do normally. To me that constitutes as hacking. While you are still in the parameters of the game and not using a device to alter the code of the game, I still consider it a form of hacking. I think its best we agree to disagree. Otherwise this will never end.




You say you play to have fun in comparison to others, (not-so-subtly) implying that they aren't having fun.

I like how you fail to read the rest of my posts and take only certain parts of it to yet again put words in my mouth. I also said that if other players want to do that then all the more power to them. Because I personally don't see the fun in Abusing the RNG or Breeding Countless eggs to get the perfect set of IVs, does not mean that others don't find that fun. I apologize if my wording read in a way to you that seemed stereotypical, but that was in no way my intention. Now if you could please drop this, I see no point in it.
-;248;

Kreis
20th November 2009, 3:40 AM
You are forcing the game to do something that it shouldn't do normally. To me that constitutes as hacking. While you are still in the parameters of the game and not using a device to alter the code of the game, I still consider it a form of hacking. I think its best we agree to disagree. Otherwise this will never end.




I like how you fail to read the rest of my posts and take only certain parts of it to yet again put words in my mouth. I also said that if other players want to do that then all the more power to them. Because I personally don't see the fun in Abusing the RNG or Breeding Countless eggs to get the perfect set of IVs, does not mean that others don't find that fun. I apologize if my wording read in a way to you that seemed stereotypical, but that was in no way my intention. Now if you could please drop this, I see no point in it.
-;248;

Remember, no external device is being used to directly manipulate the games data, therefore, it is not hacking. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. However, if you believe that's cheating, then that's your opinion and you can stand by it all you want, but it's not hacking.

randomspot555
20th November 2009, 4:13 AM
You are forcing the game to do something that it shouldn't do normally.

That is an extremely broad definition, and even then, that isn't the definition of hacking.

Hacking requires the direct manipulation of the game cart to do something that normally can't be done.

RNG abuse is not hacking because no external device is modifying the game cart to do anything.

You are entitled to your own opinion.


To me that constitutes as hacking.

Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong. You can't make up your own facts. RNG is not hacking. That's a fact.


I like how you fail to read the rest of my posts and take only certain parts of it to yet again put words in my mouth. I also said that if other players want to do that then all the more power to them. Because I personally don't see the fun in Abusing the RNG or Breeding Countless eggs to get the perfect set of IVs, does not mean that others don't find that fun.

You talked about what you don't like, then right after that you said "I play to have fun." That is saying those that do that aren't having fun, which is something that has no basis in reality. You didn't say that you didn't find it fun, you said "I play to have fun" meaning that there are only "certain" ways to play Pokemon properly, something that is spouted on this board far too often.


Now if you could please drop this, I see no point in it.
-;248;

Feel free to not reply to me if you don't want to reply to my posts.

Tyrannotaur
20th November 2009, 4:46 AM
That is an extremely broad definition, and even then, that isn't the definition of hacking.

Hacking requires the direct manipulation of the game cart to do something that normally can't be done.

RNG abuse is not hacking because no external device is modifying the game cart to do anything.

You are entitled to your own opinion.

Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong. You can't make up your own facts. RNG is not hacking. That's a fact.


Regardless of what the definition of the word hacking is, To ME personally the entire system of RNG abuse seems TO ME like hacking. I don't see what is so hard to understand. No matter how many times you tell me it isn't, my opinion is that it is. I am a stubborn person. I'm not gonna back down on this so please stop attempting to convince me otherwise.



You talked about what you don't like, then right after that you said "I play to have fun." That is saying those that do that aren't having fun, which is something that has no basis in reality. You didn't say that you didn't find it fun, you said "I play to have fun" meaning that there are only "certain" ways to play Pokemon properly, something that is spouted on this board far too often.

I've already apologized for coming off as if I said that other players who Abuse the RNG or IV breed don't have fun. That wasn't my intention. The fact that you keep insisting that I am still at fault for something when I apologized for it is incredibly annoying. So I am asking you nicely to stop. Thank you.




Feel free to not reply to me if you don't want to reply to my posts.
Ditto.
-;248;

Kreis
20th November 2009, 4:51 AM
Regardless of what the definition of the word hacking is, To ME personally the entire system of RNG abuse seems TO ME like hacking. I don't see what is so hard to understand. No matter how many times you tell me it isn't, my opinion is that it is. I am a stubborn person. I'm not gonna back down on this so please stop attempting to convince me otherwise.



I've already apologized for coming off as if I said that other players who Abuse the RNG or IV breed don't have fun. That wasn't my intention. The fact that you keep insisting that I am still at fault for something when I apologized for it is incredibly annoying. So I am asking you nicely to stop. Thank you.



Ditto.
-;248;

The fact that you're covering your ears and screaming "NO, NO, NO" isn't going to change the fact that RNG abuse is in fact not hacking. Yes, we understand that's it's your opinion, and we have no problem with that, but the fact that you're comparing it to hacking is incorrect and we're simply pointing it out. Yes, you could say that it's cheating, but it's in no way related to hacking.

Tyrannotaur
20th November 2009, 5:09 AM
The fact that you're covering your ears and screaming "NO, NO, NO" isn't going to change the fact that RNG abuse is in fact not hacking. Yes, we understand that's it's your opinion, and we have no problem with that, but the fact that you're comparing it to hacking is incorrect and we're simply pointing it out. Yes, you could say that it's cheating, but it's in no way related to hacking.

Seems more to I am being prevented from using the word hacking for whatever reason. I understand it is not hacking in the sense you both are describing it. I understand what hacking is. I am simply stating that in my opinion it seems alot like hacking. I am not using hacking in the same vein as using Pokesav to put Wonderguard on a spiritomb. I am using it more in the vein of cheating. I just happen to like the word hacking. To be fair hacking is often associated with cheating and vice versa.
The fact that this entire argument has been blown way out of portion is partially my fault, and I am sorry for that. I hope this will settle this finally.
-;248;

TheFightingPikachu
20th November 2009, 5:25 AM
Who was the one who decided to make the poll say "Hacking or Not?" anyway? That was a clear mistake. Something can be unfair without it being "hacking" per se. And yes, RNG manipulation does give hacked-like results, and it can require hacking.

Too many people ignore these facts.

Arande
20th November 2009, 5:38 AM
Thank you very much for this insightful post! (I quoted the portion that most impressed me.) This is exactly the point that escapes so many people. How did the RNG manipulators conclude that this was indeed something that the game designers intended us to figure out? Everything I have seen indicates that they simply assumed this was just like all the other game mechanics. But it's not. But the RNG is more than just a game mechanic. With suficient knowledge, you could predict every interaction. Why should it stop at just breeding perfect shiny Pokemon?

I think most people would agree that this is not fair. I stand by my original statement that RNG manipulation is almost entirely unfair.

How did people conclude that it was something meant to be "as random as possible"? Why would they let the players control the RNG at all if it was to "be as random as possible."

Yes, they could make it more complex, but they chose not to. Whenever you log into wifi, the RNG is reseeded for example, why didn't they set the RNG to reseed before every egg was generated? They didn't.

And before you start with thinking you can use it more, like predicting when crits happen it battle, you cant. That would require you to know exactly how many calls are made to the RNG. So you'd have to know exactly what moves are used in the battle already. Don't want people trying to blame their fire blast missing on someone who RNGs now...

TheFightingPikachu
20th November 2009, 5:53 AM
How did people conclude that it was something meant to be "as random as possible"? Why would they let the players control the RNG at all if it was to "be as random as possible."

Yes, they could make it more complex, but they chose not to. Whenever you log into wifi, the RNG is reseeded for example, why didn't they set the RNG to reseed before every egg was generated? They didn't.

Random is not a comparative word. It doesn't have to be--in fact, can't be--"as random as possible." It's a necessarily imperfect attempt at randomness.

Let me ask you Arande; Is the fact that the RNG is (partly) in the player's "control" the only fact you have to support the view that the designer's meant for us to figure it out?

Arande
20th November 2009, 6:18 AM
There is the fact that they used a common and simple algorithm for their RNG instead of making one from scratch, or using a more complex one. (they use a linear congruential generator)

The reason i mention having it player based is that even if they used the LCG due to memory requirements, they still could have kept it constantly running, or something in to which the chances of predicting the results would be a lot more difficult, instead of "it advances x frames when I do this X times"

Even then , whether it was a mechanic meant for us to figure out or not is honestly one that only gamefreak can answer.

Short version being, we aren't the ones capable of answering whether we were meant to figure it out or not, so bringing it up for either side of the argument is moot.

randomspot555
20th November 2009, 7:26 AM
Regardless of what the definition of the word hacking is, To ME personally the entire system of RNG abuse seems TO ME like hacking.

Again, just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it's infallible. I can say "in my opinion, using coupons is like stealing. I mean, cmon, less money is being made either way, right?!?!?!". Just because I put "in my opinion" there doesn't shield me from being factually wrong.

Again, you are entitled to your own opinon. If you think it is cheating, unfair, etc..., that is entirely subjective. However, it is not at all like, is, or resembles hacking, at least any more than any other game mechanic is. Hacking is the use of an external device to modify the game cart to produce some sort of result. RNG is a complex formula to produce results legally within the game.

Notice how there's no connection to them at all?


I don't see what is so hard to understand. No matter how many times you tell me it isn't, my opinion is that it is. I am a stubborn person. I'm not gonna back down on this so please stop attempting to convince me otherwise.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can have whatever opinion you want. But you are making up your own facts to suit your opinion, and that's wrong.


That wasn't my intention. The fact that you keep insisting that I am still at fault for something when I apologized for it is incredibly annoying. So I am asking you nicely to stop. Thank you.

You don't need to apologize for it. I don't care. But the fact that you denied saying it is interesting.


Ditto.
-;248;

I'm not asking for it to be dropped. You did.


Now if you could please drop this, I see no point in it.

I love the double standard. You think I should stop posting, but have no problem replying to my posts. If you don't want to reply, don't respond to my posts. Simple as that. I have no personal problem with you, so I'm going to continue posting.

On another note:

Short version being, we aren't the ones capable of answering whether we were meant to figure it out or not, so bringing it up for either side of the argument is moot.

Let's just pretend that someone at Game Freak publicly said fans were never supposed to discover the EV system. Would we all just drop it and then call it cheating whenever someone used it?

Arande
20th November 2009, 8:22 AM
Let's just pretend that someone at Game Freak publicly said fans were never supposed to discover the EV system. Would we all just drop it and then call it cheating whenever someone used it?

The thing is, they DID say they added hidden mechanics like EV's and such. They just didn't include RNGing specifically when listing the examples of game mechanics. Believe I said it wouldn't be a "hidden mechanic" if they told us about it.

I was thinking of the earlier post about how whether the mechanic was intended for us to discover or not is moot, as that won't change how it is used since we have discovered it. I probably shouldn't be posting half asleep.

Amplify
20th November 2009, 1:17 PM
The main thing that people arguing against it who say it's "cheating" seem to be missing is the following, I'll try and word it simply.


If you asked a gamefreak developer if they intended for people to be able to use a gameshark, they would say no.

If you asked a gamefreak developer if they intended for people to be able to create pokemon out of nothing with Pokesav, they would say no.

If you asked a gamefreak developer if they intended for people to be able to clone pokemon using the GTS or any other method, they would say no.

However, if you asked a gamefreak developer if they intended for certain journal flips to advance the frame count by two, or double tapping the happiness checker to advance the frame count by 2 per pokemon in the party, or flipping a coin to advance it by one, or that different seeds will be generated depending on the time, date & delay of when you enter the game, and shiny pokemon to be generated like that, they would say YES.



If you can find one, just ONE step of how the RNG process works that would make a gamefreak developer say "No, that's not how we intended for the game to work it's a bug" and do so unquestioningly to myself, then and only then will I say "Yes, the RNG is cheating in the say way that cloning is cheating".

Until that point in time, anybody who says it is "cheating" or "hacking" ultimately has a flawed & invalid argument.

Ace of ♠
20th November 2009, 1:39 PM
.

However, if you asked a gamefreak developer if they intended for certain journal flips to advance the frame count by two, or double tapping the happiness checker to advance the frame count by 2 per pokemon in the party, or flipping a coin to advance it by one, or that different seeds will be generated depending on the time, date & delay of when you enter the game, and shiny pokemon to be generated like that, they would say YES.



Tru dat.

It's not hacking it's more like "fast-forwarding" what's about to happen anyway.

dannydstk
20th November 2009, 3:42 PM
to me it takes the fun out of it and whatnot and is another thing that decreases the rarity of shinies although there basically worthless anyway. but i do believe its not hacking

arceus7
20th November 2009, 9:37 PM
Seems more to I am being prevented from using the word hacking for whatever reason. I understand it is not hacking in the sense you both are describing it. I understand what hacking is. I am simply stating that in my opinion it seems alot like hacking. I am not using hacking in the same vein as using Pokesav to put Wonderguard on a spiritomb. I am using it more in the vein of cheating. I just happen to like the word hacking. To be fair hacking is often associated with cheating and vice versa.
The fact that this entire argument has been blown way out of portion is partially my fault, and I am sorry for that. I hope this will settle this finally.
-;248;

heres something you should know me and my friend were hatching eggs and we were messing with the poketch applications. he knows nothing about rng and he is just hatching eggs and on his 3rd egg he gets a shiny -_-. This is an example of how the poketch rng works ingame now tell me how that doesn't happen naturally these are flawed arguments.

Gaiasa Hinuta
20th November 2009, 9:58 PM
I do not agree that RNG is hacking. While it may be that it should've been something secret, it requires an incredible amount of time and logic to figure out how, and not everyone can do it, making it a lot less serious than straight-up hacking. It's sort of like chaining, or the Masuda method, I guess. It's simply another way to help you get shinies without purposely manipulating the game.

cannibaleyes
20th November 2009, 10:41 PM
The same argument of "they didn't make this intentionally so that fans can abuse it" has been said about every single game mechanic.

The programers of the game knew full well exactly what they are doing when designing every game mechanic. If they didn't want any of them to be used, they shouldn't have put them in. In fact, in interviews, they've said they intentionally put these mechanics in and let fans who like battling a lot discover it for themselves.

Except in earlier gens, where many of these mechanics (or at least similar predecessors) were there and not hinted at. I don't think the programmers at Game Freak are idiots. They know game codes can be read, and they also know that most game mechanics aren't necessary for the core game. Let fans figure it out for themselves for those who want to do so.

I don't really see why you are arguing against me, because I didn't really go against anything that you are saying. It is possible that the programmers did not intentionally make game mechanics so that they were easily exploitable, but still were fully aware that people would find a way to exploit them.
Like you said, they said they wanted the fans to figure them out. ..But this doesn't mean that they intentionally made it easy so that they could. It just means that they knew that some fans would figure out the game mechanics, and that they don't care if that's how those fans want to play.

Sure, they could have used a more complex code, but what's the point? Someone will be able to figure it out no matter how complex it is. So, theoretically, any coding could probably be exploited somehow if someone took enough time to figure out how to do so. They were probably just being lazy and thought "Why bother with a complex code? The hardcore fans would crack it eventually no mater what, so let's save ourselves some time and just make it a simple algorithm." I argue that game mechanics are created with the intent to be hidden mainly from the casual player, with full knowledge that educated players will try to crack them. It's expected that some players will figure them out, but it's not intentional, and it's assumed that the majority of players won't bother. And in the end, as long as people buy the game, they don't care. So, if they can make a game with a simpler algorithm than it's predecessors and still sell games, then they might as well do that, since it's less effort for the programmers.
IMO, it doesn't have anything to do with "putting in really simple programming specifically so that the fans can figure it out and exploit it" and has more to do with laziness and money.

And Tyrannotaur, I agree with you on the "hacking" versus "hacking" thing. It's not straight-up hacking, per se, but it is more of different form of it. I would not say that pokemon obtained through this method are "hacks", but to say that it's not hack-ish at all is a bit delusional. I'm sorry, but if someone figures out that much about a computer program, they've practically hacked into it. Of course, no one will ever agree with us on this, because they are just so dead set on the technical definition.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's wrong to exploit, or that the programmers are against people doing this. I'm just saying that it's silly to think for a moment that programmers create video games in such a way specifically so that gamers can figure out every little bit of coding and exploit it.


heres something you should know me and my friend were hatching eggs and we were messing with the poketch applications. he knows nothing about rng and he is just hatching eggs and on his 3rd egg he gets a shiny -_-. This is an example of how the poketch rng works ingame now tell me how that doesn't happen naturally these are flawed arguments.
It is different, because your friend had no idea why that happened, while RNG abusers know full well what they are doing. I know this argument has been argued before of how that doesn't change anything, but think of it this way... If you kill someone without meaning to, it's Manslaughter. Whereas, if you plan ahead and have full intent to kill someone and you kill them, it's 1st Degree Murder. Granted, getting shinies isn't killing people, but you get the idea. Intent and knowledge can make a difference.

arceus7
20th November 2009, 11:02 PM
their dead set because calling something hackish gives people the idea that its wrong -_-

okay Im going to do mai funky dance and if you say tweaking isnt cheating or hacking and you say RNG abuse is hacking or cheating like I've seen so many people do on here your officially stupid and I just might ban you from pokemon for life <(sarcasm)

oh and its not so different if you think about it like this RNG abuse is manipulating the rng to do something you want. ie he was hatching for shinies with good natures. He was affecting the system and it gave him a desirable result. How is this so different. It all goes back to figuring the exact definition of rng abuse

randomspot555
20th November 2009, 11:39 PM
I don't really see why you are arguing against me, because I didn't really go against anything that you are saying. It is possible that the programmers did not intentionally make game mechanics so that they were easily exploitable, but still were fully aware that people would find a way to exploit them.
Like you said, they said they wanted the fans to figure them out. ..But this doesn't mean that they intentionally made it easy so that they could. It just means that they knew that some fans would figure out the game mechanics, and that they don't care if that's how those fans want to play.

It's more of an in general and not aimed at you directly. It's this notion that there's some "proper" way to play Pokemon, often using the phrase "as the creators meant it." But there's no "proper" way to play Pokemon, and Game Freak and co would be idiots to say something like that.


I argue that game mechanics are created with the intent to be hidden mainly from the casual player, with full knowledge that educated players will try to crack them. It's expected that some players will figure them out, but it's not intentional, and it's assumed that the majority of players won't bother.

I fully agree with you there. Most Pokemon fans aren't even visiting Pokemon fan sites, and even among the hardcore fans (IE those posting on fan sites) very few care about the advance game mechanics.

That doesn't mean fans won't notice it. If you battle a bunch of Starly's, eventually you'll notice that your speed stat is increasing at a faster rate than other stats. But that's just a small hint and not even close to an explanation of effort values.


And Tyrannotaur, I agree with you on the "hacking" versus "hacking" thing. It's not straight-up hacking, per se, but it is more of different form of it. I would not say that pokemon obtained through this method are "hacks", but to say that it's not hack-ish at all is a bit delusional. I'm sorry, but if someone figures out that much about a computer program, they've practically hacked into it. Of course, no one will ever agree with us on this, because they are just so dead set on the technical definition.

It's not a "technical" definition. It IS the definition. Why can't Tyrannotaur just say "I think it's cheating." or "I think it gives players a huge advantage that most others don't have" and be done with it. That's a perfectly valid opinion. Saying "it's hacking," "it's like hacking", "in my opinion it's hacking" is factually wrong, period.


I'm just saying that it's silly to think for a moment that programmers create video games in such a way specifically so that gamers can figure out every little bit of coding and exploit it.

Then why would they make a complex formula for something they don't think anyone will ever use? Surely they can get the basic battle system down without it. I'm sure the game producers have better things to do than spend a massive amount of time on a battle system that they don't think will ever be appreciated by anyone outside of the production room.

cannibaleyes
21st November 2009, 12:28 AM
their dead sent because calling something hackish gives people the idea that its wrong -_-

okay Im going to do mai funky dance and if you say tweaking isnt cheating or hacking and you say RNG abuse is hacking or cheating like I've seen so many people do on here your officially stupid and I just might ban you from pokemon for life <(sarcasm)

oh and its not so different if you think about it like this RNG abuse is manipulating the rng to do something you want. ie he was hatching for shinies with good natures. He was affecting the system and it gave him a desirable result. How is this so different. It all goes back to figuring the exact definition of rng abuse
Sorry, I should have been more clear, then. Hack-ish does not mean wrong or hacking, the way I meant it. I just meant that it's practically as close as one can come to hacking the game without actually hacking it. That doesn't make it wrong, just... Crazy-devoted to exploiting the game to it's fullest. Personally, I'd consider tweaking to be in the same category as RNG abuse. Exploiting glitches/RNG isn't hacking or wrong, it's just really hardcore nerdy and involves knowing a lot about how the game works. ...And there's nothing wrong with being hardcore nerdy, if that's how someone wants to play. :)

And I already said why it's different. It's the intent and knowledge. He didn't advance the RNG with the specific intent to get a shiny. As far as he knows, he just "got lucky". The fact that their is no actual luck involved doesn't matter, because he perceived it as "getting lucky". IMO, in this case, it's the perception of the situation that matters, not the actuality of it. Because as I said earlier, in actuality, it's impossible to program true randomness.

It's more of an in general and not aimed at you directly. It's this notion that there's some "proper" way to play Pokemon, often using the phrase "as the creators meant it." But there's no "proper" way to play Pokemon, and Game Freak and co would be idiots to say something like that.

I see. Well then, in that case, I agree with what you just said here. I'm not arguing for other people, I'm just arguing my own opinions. XD


It's not a "technical" definition. It IS the definition. Why can't Tyrannotaur just say "I think it's cheating." or "I think it gives players a huge advantage that most others don't have" and be done with it. That's a perfectly valid opinion. Saying "it's hacking," "it's like hacking", "in my opinion it's hacking" is factually wrong, period.

Whatever. XD
It's a moot point, really. Like you said, it's not hacking like using an AR is, the pokemon created through RNG are certainly not "hacks", since they were created just like they normally are. So, technically, no, it's not hacking. I guess what I'm trying to say is that anyone who has that much knowledge of how a program works is smart enough to actually know how to actually hack it. Simply exploiting it isn't actually hacking it, but if the person wanted to, they are probably savvy enough to actually hack it. Just pointing out that casual gamers didn't figure this out, hackers did.


Then why would they make a complex formula for something they don't think anyone will ever use? Surely they can get the basic battle system down without it. I'm sure the game producers have better things to do than spend a massive amount of time on a battle system that they don't think will ever be appreciated by anyone outside of the production room.
To keep us hardcore gamers busy. :P
And to make it appear randomized to the casual gamer.
Like I said, a majority of the programming is aimed at the casual gamer. They don't want the casual gamer to be able to figure out the programming, so they threw in a bit of complexity here and there. They probably decided to put some of these complex things in order to appeal to the more devoted gamers, too. It's a balance between keeping the casual gamer naive and still interesting the hardcore gamers with a little complexity here and there. But still making it not so complex as to waste time, effort, and money that need not to be wasted on development.

EDIT: Sorry, arceus7, I have a tendency to take things too personally. Didn't mean to lash out at something that wasn't directed at me.

arceus7
21st November 2009, 12:29 AM
to other people not you

Tyrannotaur
21st November 2009, 1:39 AM
And Tyrannotaur, I agree with you on the "hacking" versus "hacking" thing. It's not straight-up hacking, per se, but it is more of different form of it. I would not say that pokemon obtained through this method are "hacks", but to say that it's not hack-ish at all is a bit delusional. I'm sorry, but if someone figures out that much about a computer program, they've practically hacked into it. Of course, no one will ever agree with us on this, because they are just so dead set on the technical definition.


I'm glad you at least understand.



It's not a "technical" definition. It IS the definition. Why can't Tyrannotaur just say "I think it's cheating." or "I think it gives players a huge advantage that most others don't have" and be done with it. That's a perfectly valid opinion. Saying "it's hacking," "it's like hacking", "in my opinion it's hacking" is factually wrong, period.

Because Tyrannotaur is stubborn and doesn't like to be told what to say. I also tend to take things a bit too personally. If it will get you off my back I will say I think it is cheating and gives people a unfair advantage. I was simply using the word hacking to stand for that, because hacking does the same thing, give players a unfair advantage and constitutes as cheating. Since you are the master of the word Hacking and see to it that no one can use it in another context than it was intended, I will bow to your wishes. //sarcasm Kidding aside, you come on a little harsh and it was aggravating. I've since calmed down and hope that we can be civil.
-;248;

claymation
21st November 2009, 1:50 AM
i dont really think it's hacking. its like wave-dashing in melee. it can be considered a skill or an abuse. it's all in-game and only those who can't do it complain.

randomspot555
21st November 2009, 4:15 AM
Because Tyrannotaur is stubborn and doesn't like to be told what to say.

Then you're fine to stick with your lies. I'm just informing you that your thoughts are based on a poor understanding of the word.


I also tend to take things a bit too personally.

Totally not my problem.


I was simply using the word hacking to stand for that, because hacking does the same thing, give players a unfair advantage and constitutes as cheating.

Actually, hacking does not inherently give a player an unfair advantage. All hacking is is the process of making something the game can't normally do. Accessing the Mystery Zone via hacking does absolutely nothing. Hacking a Pokemon with 0-3 IVs does not give any sort of advantage.

All hacking is is a method, which means an external device is used to alter the game. That's it.


Since you are the master of the word Hacking and see to it that no one can use it in another context than it was intended, I will bow to your wishes. //sarcasm

It's not my fault you think you deserve your own facts. Definitions are not up to you or me to decide. They just are. I have no idea why you're trying to change a factual definition.


Kidding aside, you come on a little harsh and it was aggravating. I've since calmed down and hope that we can be civil.

I've been nothing but civil. If you have a problem with me, feel free to stop replying. If you think I'm breaking a rule, hit the report button. I've kept purely on the topic at hand, and if you get aggravated or emotional, that is none of my concern.


Just pointing out that casual gamers didn't figure this out, hackers did.

And to the hardcore anti hacking people who shun anybody who could possibly even think hacking can be used for good, I hope everyone realizes that if it wasn't for people who hacked the game, we wouldn't have a fraction of the knowledge that we have now.

cannibaleyes
21st November 2009, 4:25 AM
And to the hardcore anti hacking people who shun anybody who could possibly even think hacking can be used for good, I hope everyone realizes that if it wasn't for people who hacked the game, we wouldn't have a fraction of the knowledge that we have now.
Exactly. That's my point.
If something has to be hacked to be figured out, then it wasn't really meant to be figured out that extensively.
But, inevitably, there will always be someone who will hack a program and figure it out.
And in the end, the programmers probably don't care if someone hacks their video game as long as they paid for the game cartridge.

Amplify
21st November 2009, 4:56 AM
If something has to be hacked to be figured out, then it wasn't really meant to be figured out that extensively.
Really? (http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=76022)

Sure dosn't look that way to me.

cannibaleyes
21st November 2009, 5:50 AM
Really? (http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=76022)

Sure dosn't look that way to me.
Putting them there so that players can enjoy them doesn't necessarily mean putting them there so that players can figure out every tiny detail about the programming behind it and exploit them to their fullest.

IVs and EVs are some-what hinted at in-game now (IV man, Effort Ribbon, power items, etc.) Someone could figure out that they exist, and thus learn to somewhat utilize them, without hacking. Even more so for the special/physical split. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least in that article, he didn't say, "We even made the RNG simpler so that people can hack it and figure it out easier!"

In this case, if someone does happen to hack it and figure out how to exploit it, then Game Freak doesn't particularly care, if that's what makes the players happy.

But my point isn't whether or not the programmers care about us hacking the programs they created. They don't care. Power to us dedicated pokemon fans. Yay, thanks to Game Freak, we now have more complicated stuff to get excite about! Whee!

*ahem*
I'm simply saying that overall, programming is not written with the intention of people hacking it. But if they do, no one cares. At least not with pokemon.

Arande
21st November 2009, 8:08 AM
And there aren't people who enjoy digging that deep into the game mechanics?

Also looking at code =/= changing it. And if it weren't for those people, we wouldn't know things such as wonder cards not being able to be shiny (unless set to be) or how to ev train (we'd just know berries make stats go down while vitamins and power tiems make them go up) or that the random rumors people use to pass hacks like "1 in 8million chance to find celebi" is complete bs. If it weren't for people looking that dep into games, websites like this one wouldn't have nearly as much of the information they do. (I wonder if peoples opinions would be different if say, Serebii posted that information, rather than Smogon.)

Even then, did they actually need to look at the code? This did start with emerald when people noticed repeated trends in breeding, and that they would always find a shiny every time they reset and encountered a pokemon at the xth second. Was only after they found hose out that they realized it's cause emeralds RNG always starts at the same spot.

Yes, they hint about EV's and IV's NOW. But back in 1st and 2nd gen, they didn't. There were no berries, or anything like that to manipulate statXP. These items were added to let everyone have a chance at using that mechanic AFTER said mechanic was discovered. (IE: 1-2nd gen you couldn't reset statXP to retrain em, like you can with berries in 3rd and 4th) The only hint to statxp ever was an npc that would say "a pokemon that battles will be stronger than one caught at the same level" Does that mean if someone capped their statxp for all their pokes for each stat, they are now cheating since there wasn't any explanation for it back then? I mean, he'd have an advantage over someone that just rare candied, or leveled a poke in cerulean save so ti only has some HP and DEF bonuses, if any extra stats at all.

You can't say that one thing is "cheating because it isn't hinted at" then turn around and go "oh NOW we have an item for it, so it's ok" Logic applies to ALL game mechanics, not ones you want to pick and choose for people to use.

And just because it isn't in that article doesn't mean it isn't there for us to use either. After all, he didn't mention the hidden uses for abilities and items (everstone to help pass natures, flame body to halve egg hatching time, etc)

And will people quit using words like "exploit" "abuse" and such? They sound like the people that still call EV training "exploiting"

cannibaleyes
21st November 2009, 8:53 AM
You can't say that one thing is "cheating because it isn't hinted at" then turn around and go "oh NOW we have an item for it, so it's ok" Logic applies to ALL game mechanics, not ones you want to pick and choose for people to use.

And just because it isn't in that article doesn't mean it isn't there for us to use either. After all, he didn't mention the hidden uses for abilities and items (everstone to help pass natures, flame body to halve egg hatching time, etc)

And will people quit using words like "exploit" "abuse" and such? They sound like the people that still call EV training "exploiting"
Who says that logic has to apply to all game mechanics?


ex⋅ploit  [ik-sploit]
–verb (used with object)
1. to utilize, esp. for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.
2. to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.


I never said that it was not okay to "exploit" game mechanics, just that it is indeed "exploiting" them. Call me what you will, but technically, EV training is "exploiting" the mechanics. It is utilizing the game mechanics, and it is often selfishly done for one's own ends. Maximizing one's chances of winning is selfish, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Bottom line: Exploitation =/= wrong.
It's just a word to attempt to concisely summarize the process of utilizing somewhat hidden game mechanics for the player's benefit.
Although I see that many people get a negative connotation from the word "exploit", I personally am not meaning it in a negative sense.

Of course, my opinions are obviously not generally the majority's opinions...

Agonist
21st November 2009, 9:09 AM
exploitation of the game is exactly what game designer had hoped for because otherwise why bother putting hundreds of manhours in details such as ivs, ev's and the hidden power among other things. you obviously don't realize that people will "exploit" the game to their own beniifit. that doesn't make it cheating. if you think it cheating then either don't understand cheating, or your just trying to ignore thefact that the pro-rng people here are right and your wrong

cannibaleyes
21st November 2009, 10:01 AM
exploitation of the game is exactly what game designer had hoped for because otherwise why bother putting hundreds of manhours in details such as ivs, ev's and the hidden power among other things. you obviously don't realize that people will "exploit" the game to their own beniifit. that doesn't make it cheating. if you think it cheating then either don't understand cheating, or your just trying to ignore thefact that the pro-rng people here are right and your wrong
::Sigh:: Okay, for the last time....

1.) I already said why they would put it in there. To make it seem unpredictable to casual gamers and to keep the more devoted gamers interested. They did expect people to figure it out, just not the majority of gamers.
2.) Saying that people "will inevitably do something" doesn't automatically make it not cheating because it's inevitable. There will inevitably be people who cheat, just like there will inevitably be people who steal and kill.
3.) I personally don't care if people use in-game "cheats". By my own definition, I myself am a "cheater", as I have utilized in-game things like the cloning glitch in Emerald. And don't really care. I can support something and still consider it cheating.
3.) I am one of the pro-RNG people here. I don't recall ever saying I was against it. You obviously don't fully understand my stance on the issue.
4.) Don't tell me I'm wrong simply because no one else is on my side. You can't just say "they are right because they are right and you are wrong".

Really, this has gotten to the point where myself and others are just nick-picking each other's posts when we essentially are in agreement. Really, there's no point for me to argue anymore. I'm sorry for spawning such a ridiculous argument and letting it get to this level, but I just can't help but keep arguing until people are at least fully aware of my stance. You know what I mean, so stop nick-picking over individual words. There is no real argument left.

Arande
21st November 2009, 10:12 AM
Well, that's what was bugging me, people throwing that word around trying to make it seem bad. Why I had the quotes :P

The logic I was referring to was the "it's bad to use something unless we are told about it." Why I brought up statxp (precursor to EV's) when there was nothing to hint about it, yet it was there.

I'm curious, am I confusing people about my views on RNG? I do RNG myself (albeit I've been too busy to do any of it recently, heck, too lazy to RNG for IV's XD)

cannibaleyes
21st November 2009, 7:20 PM
I see what you're saying, Arande, and I agree. :)
Yes, it is silly to say "It's bad to use something unless we are told about it." I completely agree. Not Knowing About X =/= X is Bad.
Which is why I have no problems with using this like the RNG. It's just a dang video game. It isn't hurting anyone. :P

However, I'd also like to point out that hacking does not necessarily have to mean "altering". I guess it just bugs me that people are so caught up on that being the one definition to rule them all. A secondary definition of "hacking" is "un-authorized access". And to me, figuring out a part of a game's code that was designed to be hidden falls under that category. Some things are just common sense. A RANDOM number generator, although not truly random, is designed with the intent to be pseudo-random. Figuring out the coding so that you can access it at a certain point and thus make it not pseudo-random defeats the purpose of it and is therefore somewhat "un-authorized", IMHO.

Really, that's all I'm arguing here: That the purpose of a PRNG is just common sense, and should not have to be explicitly stated by it's creators. I just don't see a programmer saying, "Yeah, we worked really hard on creating a RANDOM number generator so that people could learn how to make it not-random and exploitable." As someone noted earlier, if you asked them specific things like "Did you design it to advance X amount of calls when X happen?" then the answer would obviously be "Yes, I programmed it to do that." But as for wether or not they programmed it specifically that way so that I could figure out that specific information... Probably not so much.

G.i.Я
21st January 2010, 6:02 PM
hacking? i dont think so, you dont alter anything on the game

cheating? well yeah , rng abuse is just like using a FAQ or Walkthrough

arceus7
21st January 2010, 6:09 PM
cheating is violating laws and regulations

in an essence the only way you can cheat at a video game is bye hacking it, not exploiting a function in a game V_V

G.i.Я
21st January 2010, 6:17 PM
well when you manipulate a given order to have an outcome it wont naturally give, you are in fact cheating even if you are no breaking rules, why? because that manipulation you do makes you have an unfair advantage.

dont get me wrong i do RNG abuse, i dont think is hacking but - honest truth - it is cheating

Hydrohs
21st January 2010, 8:37 PM
hacking? i dont think so, you dont alter anything on the game

cheating? well yeah , rng abuse is just like using a FAQ or Walkthrough

Using FAQs/Walkthrough's is not cheating...


well when you manipulate a given order to have an outcome it wont naturally give.

It does naturally give it though, that's the thing. The only difference is that we KNOW what it will give.

arceus7
21st January 2010, 9:02 PM
Using FAQs/Walkthrough's is not cheating...



It does naturally give it though, that's the thing. The only difference is that we KNOW what it will give.


exactly we will know what will happen so that makes the process faster. its like we are omniscient in that aspect since it is natural. your just pressing a bunch of buttons that if you pressed without knowing what you were doing the outcome would be the same, right hydros?

Hydrohs
22nd January 2010, 3:29 AM
exactly we will know what will happen so that makes the process faster. its like we are omniscient in that aspect since it is natural. your just pressing a bunch of buttons that if you pressed without knowing what you were doing the outcome would be the same, right hydros?

Exactly.

It's like when you're trying to fix something. If the first time it's broken you don't know how to fix it and you mess around and happen to fix it it's the same outcome as if you knew how to fix it in the first place. But knowing how to fix it to start off is not cheating now is it?

Escheria
24th January 2010, 12:17 PM
I see RNG abuse as using game mechanics to your advantage. It's the same as using EV/IV system to get the best pokemon by breeding for those awesome IVs and then maxing out with EVs. RNG is just another way of achieving that goal.

Hacking is also generally used in getting access and altering the program code. AR does that, RNG abuse doesn't.

TheFightingPikachu
24th January 2010, 10:42 PM
I see RNG abuse as using game mechanics to your advantage. It's the same as using EV/IV system to get the best pokemon by breeding for those awesome IVs and then maxing out with EVs. RNG is just another way of achieving that goal.

Hacking is also generally used in getting access and altering the program code. AR does that, RNG abuse doesn't.

I find it interesting that those who support RNG manipulation repeatedly reduce it to just another game mechanic. The truth is, the RNG is not just a game mechanic--it is far more central than that.

And just because the results are within the fair limits does not mean RNG manipulation is fair. Using Action Replay or other cheat devices to get legit stats is still cheating even if you don't hack Wonder-Guard Spiritomb.

Hydrohs
24th January 2010, 11:30 PM
I find it interesting that those who support RNG manipulation repeatedly reduce it to just another game mechanic. The truth is, the RNG is not just a game mechanic--it is far more central than that.

And just because the results are within the fair limits does not mean RNG manipulation is fair. Using Action Replay or other cheat devices to get legit stats is still cheating even if you don't hack Wonder-Guard Spiritomb.

And those that do not support it say it is not a game mechanic. I fail to see your point.

The fact is that it IS a game mechanic. It is programmed into the game to make it work. Your analogy of using ARs to get legit Pokemon does not relate at all. Even if you hack to get a Pokemon that could have been acquired through legitimate means you are still altering the games code in order to get it. With RNG nothing is altered, the game functions the exact way it was meant to.

Swampert_trainer
25th January 2010, 4:03 AM
Its an internal feature of the game, so it's not hacking. Thats like saying that breeding to get your Pokemon the best moveset hacking. I don't know how to use RNG, but I still don't consider it hacking.

ShinySandshrew
25th January 2010, 5:16 AM
And those that do not support it say it is not a game mechanic. I fail to see your point.

The fact is that it IS a game mechanic. It is programmed into the game to make it work. Your analogy of using ARs to get legit Pokemon does not relate at all. Even if you hack to get a Pokemon that could have been acquired through legitimate means you are still altering the games code in order to get it. With RNG nothing is altered, the game functions the exact way it was meant to.
Just so you know up front, I don't think RNG manip. is hacking. I just think that it is unfair. It is not a game mechanic. An example of a game mechanic is the leveling up system, or type match-ups. The RNG is way more than just a game mechanic.

randomspot555
25th January 2010, 5:39 AM
I just think that it is unfair.

Life isn't fair.

Pokemon fans who regularly go to the Internet and read fan sites constitutes a very, very small percentage of the entire fandom. These people have the advantage of multiple web sites posting about game mechanics in depth such as the EV and IV system, egg move breeding, etc... Those who do not frequent the Internet only read the vaguest hints in the games, and usually only make sense once you've read about it.

Therefore, people who have regular access to a personal computer have an advantage over those who don't. I know someone's going to say "but it's so easy to get to a computer" but that's only if you live near a place with plenty of publicly availble computers or own one that is your own.


It is not a game mechanic.

Yes it is. To say it isn't a game mechanic is saying the game programmers are idiots and that this accidentally happened. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that this works 100% the way they want it to.

żRay?
25th January 2010, 6:14 AM
Life isn't fair.

Pokemon fans who regularly go to the Internet and read fan sites constitutes a very, very small percentage of the entire fandom. These people have the advantage of multiple web sites posting about game mechanics in depth such as the EV and IV system, egg move breeding, etc... Those who do not frequent the Internet only read the vaguest hints in the games, and usually only make sense once you've read about it.

Therefore, people who have regular access to a personal computer have an advantage over those who don't. I know someone's going to say "but it's so easy to get to a computer" but that's only if you live near a place with plenty of publicly availble computers or own one that is your own.

Yes it is. To say it isn't a game mechanic is saying the game programmers are idiots and that this accidentally happened. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that this works 100&#37; the way they want it to.

I completely agree. But for those of us who aren't as open-minded or knowledgeable of the situation as the rest of us, I think we should reduce the situation to a more basic level. Dictionary.com defines "hacking" the following three ways:

1. To devise or modify (a computer program), usually skillfully.

2. To alter (a computer program): hacked her text editor to read HTML.

3. To gain access to (a computer file or network) illegally or without authorization: hacked the firm's personnel database.

In this sense, hacking consists of an alteration or modification of the game's coding. This is something that RNG Manipulation does not do. There is no outside influence, with the exception of obtaining your Secret ID with the Action Replay, but this does nothing to the game's coding, nor is it required in the long run (See Smogon's RNG instructions to learn more).

The problem here is that many of you find any outside information or manipulation to be hacking, and yet you use and abuse Effort and Individual Values (EV's and IV's). To say that RNG Manipulation is not a game mechanic would be to say that all internal mechanics of similar manipulative qualities (such as EV's, IV's, etc.) compromise the game's integrity.

In short, to quote randomspot555, "Life isn't fair." It's here, and it isn't going anywhere. Whether you agree with it or not won't make it go away. Get used to it.

Note: Some people don't like to use it. That's your opinion, and I respect it.

Sy123456789
25th January 2010, 9:33 AM
You cant Abuse EV's but if you call abusing it in Ev training properly your saying the AI is abusing it as in the BT have them, but if pokemon had none of this complicated stuff, I would tend to turn off such a simple RPG Game

arceus7
25th January 2010, 5:41 PM
i for one do not view RNG abuse as a game mechanic rather its just a way to speed up a very long and arduos process. Also no one ever said hacking a legite pokemon on a ar is not cheating. >_< it sounds like we are going into morals here, but its definetely not hacking.


does anyone care to define game mechanics?

MrPostman
25th January 2010, 6:08 PM
i for one do not view RNG abuse as a game mechanic rather its just a way to speed up a very long and arduos process. Also no one ever said hacking a legit pokemon on a ar is cheating. >_< it sounds like we are going into morals here, but its definetely not hacking.
does anyone care to define game mechanics?
This is an oxymoron.

arceus7
25th January 2010, 6:16 PM
exactly.... 10charlimit

it means hacking a pokemon thats obtionable ingame with stats that it could naturally have

randomspot555
25th January 2010, 9:42 PM
i for one do not view RNG abuse as a game mechanic

That's nice, but it is a game mechanic.


does anyone care to define game mechanics?

A mechanic programmed into a game? In Pokemon's case, it's a series of formulas and complicated crap like that that eventually yield in doing something in the game that brings a benefit to those playing it.

Hydrohs
26th January 2010, 3:11 AM
i for one do not view RNG abuse as a game mechanic rather its just a way to speed up a very long and arduos process.

Except not. RNG makes the game work. Your Pokemon got paralysed? RNG did that. You encountered a Pokemon, RNG did that. Your Pokemon's attack missed? RNG did that. etc.

RNG is God.

razor fire
26th January 2010, 7:21 PM
I do not look at RNG as hacking. How can using a game normally be defined as hacking?

TheFightingPikachu
26th January 2010, 9:48 PM
i for one do not view RNG abuse as a game mechanic rather its just a way to speed up a very long and arduos process. Also no one ever said hacking a legite pokemon on a ar is not cheating. >_< it sounds like we are going into morals here, but its definetely not hacking.


does anyone care to define game mechanics?

Some people absolutely do claim that hacking legit Pokemon (using AR or Pokesav) is not cheating. I've seen it in people's signatures. It doesn't matter whether the "legit hacking" consists of just turning a Pokemon shiny or hacking perfect 31 IVs across the board, that is definitely hacking despite claims to the contrary.

I do not consider RNG manipulation hacking at all. But no one should claim that it's fair just because the results it gives are within the games parameters. That is not a sound argument and the above "legit hacking" example provides evidence for this.


Life isn't fair.
That doesn't stop people like Smogon from trying to make rules that are fair. Just saying "life's not fair" gives a skewed picture of the issue. (See above.)


Those who do not frequent the Internet only read the vaguest hints in the games, and usually only make sense once you've read about it. I beg to differ. There have been numerous mentions of different game mechanics in Nintendo player's guides. They mentioned the Everstone trick (for passing down Natures in breeding) that some have cited as something hackers had to find out for us. They didn't give specifics about EVs, but they explained that fighting some specific Pokemon can increase certain stats. The Judge in Emerald and Platinum could have helped me on the way to great breeding even if I'd never found Serebii.net/Serebii Forums. Don't just claim that because we hadn't been told about something it's fair game. Remember, there are people who are against cloning, too, and they have a right to be against it.



To say it isn't a game mechanic is saying the game programmers are idiots and that this accidentally happened. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that this works 100% the way they want it to.
No one can rightly claim that it is less than a game mechanic. I claim that it is much more than a game mechanic. I think it is no overstatement to say that the RNG is the core of all the game mechanics!

Just to clarify, my position is that RNG manipulation is not hacking, but that it is mostly unfair.

Hydrohs
26th January 2010, 10:01 PM
Just to clarify, my position is that RNG manipulation is not hacking, but that it is mostly unfair.

It is fair. It's something that everyone can do.

Yes hacking legit Pokemon is unfair because not everyone has an AR and it's extremely hard to get those Pokemon under normal means. But everyone that can browse the internet can use RNG to their advantage just as well as someone else.

randomspot555
26th January 2010, 10:16 PM
That doesn't stop people like Smogon from trying to make rules that are fair. Just saying "life's not fair" gives a skewed picture of the issue. (See above.)

Irrelevant, becuase Smogon bases it's rules on a battle simulator. While they need to have an understanding of the battle system and legality of IVs when it comes to non-breedable Pokes, they don't need to concern themselves with the actual raising of Pokemon.

My point was that there already is a vast gap of information between the few..100,000 (probably a very generous estimate) or so Pokefans who frequent the Internet and read articles on game mechanics and those who play the games.


I beg to differ. There have been numerous mentions of different game mechanics in Nintendo player's guides. They mentioned the Everstone trick (for passing down Natures in breeding) that some have cited as something hackers had to find out for us. They didn't give specifics about EVs, but they explained that fighting some specific Pokemon can increase certain stats. The Judge in Emerald and Platinum could have helped me on the way to great breeding even if I'd never found Serebii.net/Serebii Forums. Don't just claim that because we hadn't been told about something it's fair game. Remember, there are people who are against cloning, too, and they have a right to be against it.

Again, the in-game hints to game mechanics are just that, hints. They are hints to the complex game mechanics below the cutesy monsters and basic RPG that is Pokemon.

As for the official guides, not everyone has access to them either. For those of us who buy our games at non-Gamestop stores, they often aren't even available. And even then, they don't go in-depth about much.

What is the Everstone's in-game description? Prevents evolution. Nothing in the games has ever been said about passing down natures.

TLDR/summary: Life isnt fair and there's already a vast gap in availability of knowledge between those who frequent Pokemon web sites and those who don't. RNG's mechanics is just another part of the gap of knowledge available to those on the Internet and those who are not.

Noctourniquet
26th January 2010, 10:19 PM
@ People who say it's unfair;
Technically, when something is "Unfair", then one person has an advantage that another cannot have. Since anyone is capable of abusing the RNG, it is not unfair. The other person just chooses to take advantage of it, or is unaware of it. It's like a useful skill in a certain sport. Someone who has developed this skill is not playing unfairly, just using their knowledge of the sport effectively. That's my position on it, anyway.

UmbreonLord
26th January 2010, 10:20 PM
Personally, I have no problem with anybody using RNG. Its a very useful function there for everybody to use. Take advantage of it while you can.

TheFightingPikachu
27th January 2010, 3:01 AM
Irrelevant, becuase Smogon bases it's rules on a battle simulator. While they need to have an understanding of the battle system and legality of IVs when it comes to non-breedable Pokes, they don't need to concern themselves with the actual raising of Pokemon.
No, I said "people like Smogon." You said, "Life is not fair" as though that justifies the inequity that is RNG manipulation. But we all know that fairness is worthwhile in games (ooh, we really are getting into morals, aren't we?). What I said is still relevant because I didn't restrict my statement to only include Smogon (and I wasn't saying they had anything specific to do with breeding Pokemon). My statement was meant to indicate that some people actually go so far as to strive for fairness in games, which completely nullifies your "life isn't fair" view of games.


TLDR/summary: Life isnt fair and there's already a vast gap in availability of knowledge between those who frequent Pokemon web sites and those who don't. RNG's mechanics is just another part of the gap of knowledge available to those on the Internet and those who are not.
Completely unrelated question: What on earth does "TLDR" mean?


It is fair. It's something that everyone can do.
No, everyone cannot do it. You only have an opportunity to get a random shiny. Even chaining is based on luck. Also, though you can find out your SID by knowing the exact minute you started your game, people who didn't know to record this little detail cannot find out this way now.

In short, to say that everyone can do it misses several facts. Not everyone has a shiny. They might get one in the future, but there's no guarantee without unlimited time. They could have recorded the exact minute they started the game, but most wouldn't even think of this without RNG manipulation in mind. Those who didn't record their start minute and don't yet have a random shiny cannot manipulate the RNG.

So the fact is that some people could have (in the past) gotten the information to use this, and might someday (in the future) get a shiny.

To say that anyone might have been able to or might someday be able to is very different from everyone being able to manipulate the RNG right now.

razor fire
27th January 2010, 7:08 AM
No, everyone cannot do it. You only have an opportunity to get a random shiny. Even chaining is based on luck. Also, though you can find out your SID by knowing the exact minute you started your game, people who didn't know to record this little detail cannot find out this way now.

You don't need to know the exact minute you started. You'll only need a random shiny pokemon.

Arande
27th January 2010, 7:37 AM
Wow I'm posting in this thread again...

Actually you can use your start time to figure out your SID, using your ID as well...

TL:DR = too long, didn't read, usually a brief point of the post is stated without all the details.

And to above, basing an argument on that completely uncontrollable factor we call luck doesn't really go too far, as that's what it is, the uncontrollable factor. that quite literally affects everything, ever. It's that thing where everything just happens to be in a way for something to happen. It'd be like saying critical hits are unfair because your crits KO opponents that would have been KO'd without the crit, while your opponent got a game breaking crit and would not have won without it (it's not unfair, it's just that's when the crits happened to have happened, thus your opponent would be referred to as being "lucky")

We all have the same opportunity to find a random shiny, as we all started with a clean game that run the exact same way (given it's a real copy :P)

And if you really wanna get to the nitty gritty, does every game not have the "new game" option in the menu? There is also a difference between "can't" and "does not want to"

Edit: By the way, someone did say about "it's not fair to those who have not been lucky enough to rind a random shiny yet" pages ago. The answer there was, you can also find your SID by checking several chained shinies. Again, everyone has the pokeradar, and thus the same opportunity to use that option. Whether you want to use it or not does not change the fact the option exists.

TL:DR for example, yes, everyone has the opportunity to use RNG, as there are multiple ways to find your SID oher than cheating and a random shiny nowadays.

Hydrohs
27th January 2010, 11:51 AM
No, everyone cannot do it. You only have an opportunity to get a random shiny. Even chaining is based on luck. Also, though you can find out your SID by knowing the exact minute you started your game, people who didn't know to record this little detail cannot find out this way now.

In short, to say that everyone can do it misses several facts. Not everyone has a shiny. They might get one in the future, but there's no guarantee without unlimited time. They could have recorded the exact minute they started the game, but most wouldn't even think of this without RNG manipulation in mind. Those who didn't record their start minute and don't yet have a random shiny cannot manipulate the RNG.

So the fact is that some people could have (in the past) gotten the information to use this, and might someday (in the future) get a shiny.

To say that anyone might have been able to or might someday be able to is very different from everyone being able to manipulate the RNG right now.

Yes. Everyone can. Please just stop talking. Yeah, it's hard to get a shiny, but everyone can do it. Once you get a shiny you can then find out your SID like that. Everyone has the same chance to find a shiny it is completely fair.

Guitar God in Training
27th January 2010, 12:33 PM
I think the opinion basically depends on whether you use RNG or not, users are bound to defend it while non users are going to call it a hack with no real though into the other side of the argument.

Personally, I do consider it as a form of hacking, you are using an external device which gives you instructions on how to modify the games code to your own ends which gives you an unfair advantage against non users. All in a way which was not intended by the designers.

So basically the steps are:
External device
Manipulate code
Unfair advantage (whether flawless nature and IVs or 100% chance of shininess)

In my opinion, hacking is defined by the manipulation of code in a way that was not intended. Whether or not an external device is required to directly manipulate the code.

I say all this but I have to admit that if I had the patience to learn how to RNG Pokemon, I would abuse the RNG to my own ends as well so I can't complain about it.
Plus the fact that I have yet to find a random shiny and do not know the exact minute I started the game as I did not realise there would ever be a use to it.
I will probably attempt to RNG something if I ever find a shiny but for now I will stick to hoping and trying to get a chain up to 40.

Arande
27th January 2010, 1:48 PM
^^

I'll be blunt, as RNGreporter doesn't "give you instructions" It just calculates what frame you are on, and, for example, what frame a shiny egg is on for your current game session. It's a calculator, no different than using one to calculate a pokes IV's or HP.

And no code is altered, the game runs completely as intended. You are aware that what you are calling "altering code" is using the coin flip app, right? (that advances the egg RNG, as the game is programmed to do) You are also aware walking 1 step in grass advances the RNG as well. Guess everyone that has stepped into the tall grass cheats now, huh?

And, we've been talking about the "unfair advantage" part for the past few pages, and about how everyone has the chance to use it. Something that gives an unfair advantage is not the same as choosing not to use something to your advantage.

And there will always be someone with an advantage, and thus, someone with an disadvantage. IE: Someone using good natures has an advantage over someone with bad natures, for example. The existence of RNG won't change the fact good stat pokes > bad stat pokes.

Hydrohs
27th January 2010, 6:05 PM
I think the opinion basically depends on whether you use RNG or not, users are bound to defend it while non users are going to call it a hack with no real though into the other side of the argument.

Personally, I do consider it as a form of hacking, you are using an external device which gives you instructions on how to modify the games code to your own ends which gives you an unfair advantage against non users. All in a way which was not intended by the designers.

So basically the steps are:
External device
Manipulate code
Unfair advantage (whether flawless nature and IVs or 100&#37; chance of shininess)

In my opinion, hacking is defined by the manipulation of code in a way that was not intended. Whether or not an external device is required to directly manipulate the code.

I say all this but I have to admit that if I had the patience to learn how to RNG Pokemon, I would abuse the RNG to my own ends as well so I can't complain about it.
Plus the fact that I have yet to find a random shiny and do not know the exact minute I started the game as I did not realise there would ever be a use to it.
I will probably attempt to RNG something if I ever find a shiny but for now I will stick to hoping and trying to get a chain up to 40.

The game runs exactly as the developers intended. You do not manipulate anything.

By your unfair advantage definition anyone with flawless Pokemon regardless of how they got them has an unfair advantage.


^^

I'll be blunt, as RNGreporter doesn't "give you instructions" It just calculates what frame you are on

Isn't it possible to RNG without using RNG reporter? O_o

TheFightingPikachu
27th January 2010, 6:59 PM
And to above, basing an argument on that completely uncontrollable factor we call luck doesn't really go too far, as that's what it is, the uncontrollable factor. that quite literally affects everything, ever. It's that thing where everything just happens to be in a way for something to happen. It'd be like saying critical hits are unfair because your crits KO opponents that would have been KO'd without the crit, while your opponent got a game breaking crit and would not have won without it (it's not unfair, it's just that's when the crits happened to have happened, thus your opponent would be referred to as being "lucky")
It won't get you very far to base your argument on ignoring luck either. Some people actually do claim that Critical Hits are unfair. The response is often, "Pokemon isn't chess!" No, it is not possible to separate luck from discussions about Pokemon games. Let me be straightforward: Though the Random Number Generator isn't truly random, it shows how illogical the RNG manipulators are when they have to attempt to remove luck from a discussion of the Random Number Generator.


We all have the same opportunity to find a random shiny, as we all started with a clean game that run the exact same way (given it's a real copy :P)
You do realize you've changed your argument, then? You originally said that anyone can do it. Anyone having the same chance to do it is different.


And if you really wanna get to the nitty gritty, does every game not have the "new game" option in the menu? There is also a difference between "can't" and "does not want to"
The first sentence is the fairest statement you've made yet. True indeed. But your second sentence is not quite fair. It would be like saying that anyone can brush their cat's teeth when in reality they would have to knock the cat out to keep it from scratching and biting. O.O


Edit: By the way, someone did say about "it's not fair to those who have not been lucky enough to rind a random shiny yet" pages ago. The answer there was, you can also find your SID by checking several chained shinies. Again, everyone has the pokeradar, and thus the same opportunity to use that option. Whether you want to use it or not does not change the fact the option exists.
Statistics dictate that there is no guarantee of getting a shiny to appear, even with Pokeradar, unless you have infinite time! No one has infinite time.

Ending clarification:

I think the opinion basically depends on whether you use RNG or not, users are bound to defend it while non users are going to call it a hack with no real though into the other side of the argument.
The above quote is invalid. I've never used RNG manipulation, but I do not believe is hacking. I believe it is mostly unfair.

randomspot555
27th January 2010, 7:14 PM
Personally, I do consider it as a form of hacking, you are using an external device which gives you instructions on how to modify the games code to your own ends which gives you an unfair advantage against non users. All in a way which was not intended by the designers.

No external device is used to modify or even come in contact with the game. All RNG Reporter does is perform mathmatical calculations, which could be done by pen and paper if one really wanted to.

"An unfair advantage" is very, very vague. It's an "unfair advantage" to EV train a Pokemon and fight a trainer who refuses to EV train, but life isn't fair. If they wanted to EV train their Pokemon, they had the capability of doing so.

Also, see my previous thoughts on fans on the Internet vs every other Pokemon fan.


In my opinion, hacking is defined by the manipulation of code in a way that was not intended. Whether or not an external device is required to directly manipulate the code.

You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts. Hacking, in the case of video games, is the use of an external device to interact with the game, using it to force something to happen. In the case of Pokemon, this is usually used to create a Pokemon automatically, or speed up the process of eggs hatching, forced appearances in the wild, etc...