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View Full Version : Victini In 5th Gen



Lunanight
21st November 2010, 9:08 PM
http://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite/494.pnghttp://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_shiny/494.png

Typing: Psychic / Fire
Base Stats: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100
Ability: Victory Star: raises accuracy of Victini by 10% (I think it is 10%)

moves in BOLD are good moves for victini

victini is what I call isshu's base 600 "mascot"(mew, celebi, jirachi, shaymin)
and like mew, has a good movepool but unlike mew - it has a better ability to make use of powerful moves

overall, I can see victini being an OU pokemon since it is too good for BL/UU
and is too weak for Ubers. by itself, victni is not much of a threat but with a team that can cover it's weaknesses then you can sweep with victini well


Start Flame Bomb
Start Focus Energy
Start Confusion
Start Devastate
Start Quick Attack
9 Endure
17 Headbutt
25 Nitro Charge
33 Reversal
41 Flame Burst
49 Zen Headbutt
57 Purgatory
65 Double-Edge
73 Flare Blitz
81 Death Gambit
89 Assist Power
97 Overheat
Psycho Shock
Toxic
Hidden Power
Sunny Day
Taunt
Hyper Beam
Light Screen
Protect
Telekinesis
Safeguard
Frustration
Solar Beam
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Return
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Brick Break
Double Team
Flamethower
Fire Blast
Facade
Nitro Charge
Rest
Troll
Overheat
Focus Blast
Energy Ball
Fling
Charge Beam
Complete Burn
Will-O-Wisp
Embargo
Giga Impact
Flash
Thunder Wave
Psych Up
Cheer Up
Grass Knot
Swagger
U-Turn
Substitute
Trick Room
Wild Bolt
Rock Smash

100 in all stats make it balanced and effective at anything
good ability
powerful attacks like fire blast and thunder to abuse with it's ability
good offensive typing
Death gambit with base 100 HP makes it deadly


Poor defensive typing making it tyranitar bait
It's ability only boost's it by 10% which is not THAT good
has no recovery move outside of rest and still, there is no sleep talk TM in 5th gen
easily walled by blissey unless you use a choice band or use Cheer Up and then brick break

Cheer Up Sweeper
Victini @ Life orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed
Nature: Hasty
- Cheer Up
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

the strategy is to use cheer up and then sweep using +1 Atk and +1 SpAtk

brick break is used instead of focus blast to hit blissey for higher damage:

+1 brick Break vs Standard WishBliss: 53.8% - 63.3%
+1 Focus Blast vs Standard WishBliss: 45.9% - 54.1%

even with 252 SpAtk EV's, focus blast is a lot weaker then brick break.
brick break is a guarrented 2HKO so blissey can not switch in on it

Choiced Physical Sweeper
Victini @ Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly or Adamant
- Wild Volt
- Brick Break (it does not get superpower)
- Flare Blitz
- U-Turn

this set easily takes pokemon like blissey by suprise

Choice Band Victini VS Standard WishBliss: 52.1% - 61.3%

U-turn let's it switch to another pokemon to take the hit or if the opponent has low HP and U-turn Can KO

Choiced Special Sweeper
Victini @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed
Nature: Timid or Modest
- Thunder
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

victini's ability allows it to spam moves like fire blast and thunder and not worrying about it missing as much

Combine that with the choice Scarf/Choice Specs and it will do some good damage

the moveset gives it good coverage while super effecting walls like burugeru, nattorei, skarmory and vaporeon

Death Gambit Revenge Killer
Victini @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 Speed
Nature: Timid
- Death Gambit
- U-turn
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

with this EV spread, victini has 404 HP and 328 Speed
so with a choice scarf and death gambit, it can switch in after one of your pokemon are KO'ed and then OHKO them with death gambit.

also, not many pokemon put a lot of EV's into HP and unless you have more then 404 HP then you will be KO'ed.

when using victini, it is important to have a spinner since it is weak to stealth rock AND spikes

forrtress is good for this as it resist dark moves and ghost moves and also takes neutral damage to ground, rock and water

if you are using the special sweeper set then a pokemon that can easily KO blissey is good to have.

lucario can pull this off since it is immune to toxic and that way, lucario can set up when it switchs and then KO threats to victini

in ubers, groudon can help it out to use solarbeam since it is a lot better then energy ball. it also helps for a sun team

Kyogre does the same except it helps thunder's shaky accuracy and helps victini do some damage with it

Victini can use trick room but pokemon like dusknoir, uxie and cresselia can do this better

it can use a wall set with toxic, will-O-wisp or T-Wave but celebi is better at this due to having instant recovery with "recover"

Flame Bomb, victini's signiture move is good with 100 power and 100 accuracy but is weaker then fire blast and has the same PP, it's ability makes fire blast the better choice anyway

Blissey easily walls all of victini's sets unless victini is at +1 or is choiced
also, victini can not recover it's health back but blissey can with leftovers and wish

swampert resist fire blast and is immune to thunder so the only way victini can beat it is to use energy ball or grass knot which it rarely uses

Gastrodon can also do this except it has recover which makes it even easier to KO if victini does not have a grass move

latias and latios can resist thunder, focus blast, energy ball and fire blast so it needs shadow ball to do any real damage while they can strike back with +2 stab draco meteor's (+1 for the soul dew, +1 for calm mind)

in ubers, girantina (both forms) can wall it if it does not have shadow ball and and resist fire blast and thunder and are immune to focus blast

Sweep Freak
28th December 2010, 4:42 PM
Victini is a pokemon I expect to see alot in 5th gen. It can serve quite a few roles and with strong STAB moves like Psycho Shock and V-Generate, he is a threat to be considered in all teams.

d0nut
28th December 2010, 6:32 PM
I disagree about Victini being OU in this gen. The standards for being OU have increased greatly, and considering it is weak to both Pursuit and Stealth Rock it will have trouble both switching in and out. Unless Drizzle gets banned, Rain teams will continue to dominate and Victini has no buisness standing up to a Rain team as any sweeper can KO it with STAB Rain boosted Surf/Waterfall. Sand also messes with it pretty badly as Tar can Pursuit it easily since it can take both its STABs, though Focus Blast/Brick Break can KO it. Most Victini I see are choiced so it would have to rely on prediction to beat Tar. I don't need to say anything else about Doryuuzu/Landlos/Chomp past STAB EQ. There are several things which look like great pokes which have fallen into the UU zone (Terrakion and Blissey for example) so I doubt Victini will get enough usage this gen unless several things end up being banned allowing it to be more useful. I'm not sure how he would fare in UU, though if he breaks it he would be BL. There is no such thing as too powerful for BL since it's just a ban list.

windsong
28th December 2010, 7:13 PM
Agreeing with d0nut; BL at best, probably UU. It's weak against every common playstyle because frankly, it has terrible typing, and overall, 100/100/100/100/100/100 isn't as good a stat spread in gen 5 as it used to be when there are monsters like Landlos and Terakion around.

streetlightdsb
28th December 2010, 7:21 PM
Yeah, I agree with d0nut. Rain and Sand are duking it out for dominant weather (with Rain winning IMO) and a fire type loses to both of those, not to mention it's difficult to keep rocks off the field so the SR will hurt it. Especially on sand as its very likely that Hippowdon or Ttar will be a lead and have SR.

It looks like a fun Pokemon to use though, I'll have to build a team around it.

Fun gimmick strategy- when V-Generate is released, use Spinda to Skill Swap Perversity and spam V-Generate. Base 180 attack with +1 to both defences and speed every time you use it :p

Masteryoshimon
20th January 2011, 6:50 AM
I think Victini has some potential in OU, maybe in Uber depending

Here's my idea for Victini:

Victini @ Wise Glasses/Choice Specs
Victory Star
Modest
252 SAttk/252 Speed/4 HP
-Ball of Flame/ V-Generate
-Psycho Shock/ Psychic
-Thunderbolt/ Thunder
-Solarbeam/ Energy Ball/ Grass Knot

As a special sweeper Victini is awesome. Ball of Flame is insanely powerful, STAB, and has 30% burn. V-Generate is an alternative, doing insanely more damage, but the stat drops suck. Psycho Shock or Psychic both get STAB and are pretty powerful in their own right. Psycho Shock would be perfect in taking out Special Walls, as it targets Defense instead of Special Defense. Thunderbolt/ Thunder will take care of any Bulky Waters, and can destroy against a Rain Team. Solarbeam is good if your running Sunny Day, and will destroy Ground, Rock, and Water types. If you're not running Sunny Day, Energy Ball and Grass Knot are both viable alternatives. EV's are obvious, and Nature just makes it an even better Sweeper. Wise Glasses is better if you plan on switching moves often, but Choice Specs make you more powerful, albeit with a lot of switching.

Victini has enough power to devastate in the OU, if you do well in backing it up. It functions well if paired up with the likes of Mew, and receives a chain Baton Pass, and boost it's Special Attack to insane numbers. Victini also can function well with a Rain Team or a Sun Team, and can devastate a Rain Team pretty quickly. Oh, but it's ability sucks. It only gives the boost during Double and Triple battles.

Victini could also work well as a Physical Sweeper, a mix, or a Support Pokemon. If I get time I'll post those builds as well.

Eaglehawk
21st January 2011, 2:54 AM
I think Victini has some potential in OU, maybe in Uber depending

Here's my idea for Victini:

Victini @ Wise Glasses/Choice Specs
Victory Star
Modest
252 SAttk/252 Speed/4 HP
-Ball of Flame/ V-Generate
-Psycho Shock/ Psychic
-Thunderbolt/ Thunder
-Solarbeam/ Energy Ball/ Grass Knot

As a special sweeper Victini is awesome. Ball of Flame is insanely powerful, STAB, and has 30% burn. V-Generate is an alternative, doing insanely more damage, but the stat drops suck. Psycho Shock or Psychic both get STAB and are pretty powerful in their own right. Psycho Shock would be perfect in taking out Special Walls, as it targets Defense instead of Special Defense. Thunderbolt/ Thunder will take care of any Bulky Waters, and can destroy against a Rain Team. Solarbeam is good if your running Sunny Day, and will destroy Ground, Rock, and Water types. If you're not running Sunny Day, Energy Ball and Grass Knot are both viable alternatives. EV's are obvious, and Nature just makes it an even better Sweeper. Wise Glasses is better if you plan on switching moves often, but Choice Specs make you more powerful, albeit with a lot of switching.

Victini has enough power to devastate in the OU, if you do well in backing it up. It functions well if paired up with the likes of Mew, and receives a chain Baton Pass, and boost it's Special Attack to insane numbers. Victini also can function well with a Rain Team or a Sun Team, and can devastate a Rain Team pretty quickly. Oh, but it's ability sucks. It only gives the boost during Double and Triple battles.

Victini could also work well as a Physical Sweeper, a mix, or a Support Pokemon. If I get time I'll post those builds as well.
Its weakness to both Pursuit and Stealth Rock limits its usefulness. For Choice sets, Pursuit is more of the problem, seeing that common Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Scizor can easily come in on a resisted attack that is locked on and trap Victini, since it virtually can't switch out, with a resisted attack that is locked on and the threat of Pursuit, so ending in an apparent kill. Its weakness to stall also compounds this problem. Stealth Rock and Sandstorm already force it to limit the amount of times it can actually switch in. Plus, it makes killing it so much more easier.

Also, Ball of Flame and V-Generate are event moves, and as of now, Victini cannot learn it, so you can't really consider it as viable moves.

Blackbomber72
21st January 2011, 3:50 AM
It is actually a pretty pokemon, and I would like it to be in Ubers, but it may have a rough time there without boosts, just having Cheer Up.

Victini was born to be a risk pokemon, and as such, I will make a set involving V-generate (sadly, for OU).

Victini@Life Orb
Ability: Victory Star
Rash Nature
64 Atk/192 Sp. Atk/252 Spd
-V-generate
-Fire Blast
-Thunder/Solarbeam
-Focus Blast

V-generate is there to almost destroy Blissey, and according to my weird calculations, the final base power with STAB and Life Orb is 351!! This means, that factoring Stealth Rock or a layer of Spikes it can OHKO Blissey, but for Chansey you may need a little more EVs or a boost. Fire Blast there for special STAB. Thunder or Solarbeam depending on your approach to Water types, here I am pointing that a Victini in Sun is nice, also the Solarbeam affects Ground types, but beware of Hippowdon and Sand Streamers in General. Focus Blast for the Dark, Rock... yes, those are the types of any Psychic counter, Tyranitar. This Set is mainly designed to kill counters.

If you see some error in my thinking, please point it so I can think about something to correct it.

Gentleman Skeleton
22nd January 2011, 12:48 AM
I'm surprised no one is appreciating Nitro Charge. Given enough prediction, Victini can swoop in and strike before your opponent can lay down a punch.

Victini@Life Orb
Victory Star
Jolly Nature
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-V Generate
-Wild Charge
-Brick Break
-Nitro Charge

Nitro Charge helps build up Victini's Speed and helps a little with the painful stat drops V Generate creates. Wild Charge creates excellent type synergy with Nitro Charge and V Generate. Brick Break deals with Tyranitar and Blissey who would otherwise wall Victini with a passion.

Masteryoshimon
22nd January 2011, 2:56 AM
Its weakness to both Pursuit and Stealth Rock limits its usefulness. For Choice sets, Pursuit is more of the problem, seeing that common Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Scizor can easily come in on a resisted attack that is locked on and trap Victini, since it virtually can't switch out, with a resisted attack that is locked on and the threat of Pursuit, so ending in an apparent kill. Its weakness to stall also compounds this problem. Stealth Rock and Sandstorm already force it to limit the amount of times it can actually switch in. Plus, it makes killing it so much more easier.

Also, Ball of Flame and V-Generate are event moves, and as of now, Victini cannot learn it, so you can't really consider it as viable moves.

In theory, we shouldn't even consider Victini as it's an event Pokemon if you put it that way. And Ball of Flame isn't an event move, Victini can learn it as a starting move.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with Specs. But if Scizor switches into a Ball of Flame, he's toast. If SR is going to be standard, Rapid Spinners will be plenty to support Victini. Sandstreamers could be countered by Grass Knot or Energy Ball, and to a lesser extent Solarbeam. Pursuit will probably be Victini's most feared counter, but that even requires some guesswork. Victini isn't made to be a wall, it's better as a "switch in, devastate quickly, switch out" type of Pokemon, it won't last long enough for more than maybe four attacks max.

d0nut
22nd January 2011, 4:15 AM
In theory, we shouldn't even consider Victini as it's an event Pokemon if you put it that way. And Ball of Flame isn't an event move, Victini can learn it as a starting move.

The event for Victini was already released when the game came out in Japan so it is useable. V-Generate will be released as a giveaway for the next movie soon, also.

noahk
22nd January 2011, 4:18 AM
I like victini,but unfortunately, I dont think it is going to do well. It doesnt have the move capabilities of mew and shamin, and quite frankly, jirachi and celebii.

Dr.Lex
23rd January 2011, 10:08 PM
I think Victini can be good on a sun team. Ninetails has drought now, so Victini has at least one thing going for it.

V-Generate under the sun will rape. I think that is clear. Under the sun, solarbeam helps with rock-ground pokemon who give Victini a hard time.

Too powerful for UU, too weak for Ubers, I think Victini has a home in OU. Nothing with 100 in each stat belongs in in UU

streetlightdsb
24th January 2011, 8:19 PM
I think Victini can be good on a sun team. Ninetails has drought now, so Victini has at least one thing going for it.

V-Generate under the sun will rape. I think that is clear. Under the sun, solarbeam helps with rock-ground pokemon who give Victini a hard time.

Too powerful for UU, too weak for Ubers, I think Victini has a home in OU. Nothing with 100 in each stat belongs in in UU

Send it to BL then? This thing is not OU.

Also:

Opponent sent out Water-type!
You sent out Victini!
The sun is shining
Opponent switched out from obvious Solarbeam!
Opponent sent out Tyranitar!
Tyranitars Sandstream whipped up a Sandstorm
Victini is charging a 60BP move against Tyranitars Sand Boosted SpDef!
Tyranitar used lolpursuit
Victini fainted!

Solarbeam sucks big time.

Ekul the Sarcastic
24th January 2011, 8:25 PM
What makes you think Victini is 'too strong for UU'? The only UU list we have so far is PO's; he's definitely not too strong for that tier, and it's unlikely that we'll end up with such a large BL list that this gen's UU will even vaguely resemble last gen's.

Masteryoshimon
25th January 2011, 11:05 AM
Send it to BL then? This thing is not OU.

Also:

Opponent sent out Water-type!
You sent out Victini!
The sun is shining
Opponent switched out from obvious Solarbeam!
Opponent sent out Tyranitar!
Tyranitars Sandstream whipped up a Sandstorm
Victini is charging a 60BP move against Tyranitars Sand Boosted SpDef!
Tyranitar used lolpursuit
Victini fainted!

Solarbeam sucks big time.

It's viable in OU

And:

Opponent sent out Water-type!
You sent out Victini!
The sun is shining
Opponent switched out from obvious Solarbeam!
Opponent sent out Tyranitar!
Tyranitars Sandstream whipped up a Sandstorm
Victini uses Grass Knot
Tyranitar takes 124-176 damage
Tyranitar used Pursuit
Victini takes 64-75 damage
At this point, if Tyranitar is running Choice, then it's screwed
Otherwise, it's logical that the opponent won't try Pursuit again, and Victini can safely switch out

Masteryoshimon
25th January 2011, 11:20 AM
What makes you think Victini is 'too strong for UU'? The only UU list we have so far is PO's; he's definitely not too strong for that tier, and it's unlikely that we'll end up with such a large BL list that this gen's UU will even vaguely resemble last gen's.

What makes you think it's too weak for OU? Straight 100 stats, plus great movepool, allows Victini to be a viable sweeper/"other things that names currently escape me". It's also quite unpredictable, it gets a lot of useful and powerful moves (ex: Ball of Flame, Flare Blitz, Thunder Wave, Psycho Shock, Death Gambit, Solarbeam, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt, Cheer Up, etc.) It can effectivily take on many of it's counters (Tyranitar, Scizor, Hippopowdon). It's typing isn't the best, but it's not devastating enough to take Victini out of OU. It has less weaknesses than resistances, and it even has less weaknesses than a Pokemon like Tyranitar. It doesn't have any 4x weaknesses that can be easily exploited, and can counter many Pokemon of it's type weakness (Tyranitar, Swampert, etc.) Lastly, the biggest downside of Victini, imo, is that it's ability is crap outside of double/triple battling.

streetlightdsb
25th January 2011, 11:50 AM
It's viable in OU

And:

Opponent sent out Water-type!
You sent out Victini!
The sun is shining
Opponent switched out from obvious Solarbeam!
Opponent sent out Tyranitar!
Tyranitars Sandstream whipped up a Sandstorm
Victini uses Grass Knot
Tyranitar takes 124-176 damage
Tyranitar used Pursuit
Victini takes 64-75 damage
At this point, if Tyranitar is running Choice, then it's screwed
Otherwise, it's logical that the opponent won't try Pursuit again, and Victini can safely switch out

It's viable in OU. A lot of Pokemon have a niche in OU that means they're viable. Sturdy Lv 1 Aron is ruined by hazards (common) and Ghosts (Chandelure and Jellicent say hi) but can be used to effect. Does not mean it's good enough to be consistently used by a large number of players in order to officially make OU.

And thanks for helping to show Solarbeam is outclassed by Grass Knot or Energy Ball.

EDIT:
. It doesn't have any 4x weaknesses that can be easily exploited, and can counter many Pokemon of it's type weakness (Tyranitar, Swampert, etc.) Lastly, the biggest downside of Victini, imo, is that it's ability is crap outside of double/triple battling.

Try and switch Victini in on a Crunch or Stone Edge from Ttar, or an Earthquake from Swampert (who uses it any more?). I'm sure it won't end well. It checks them, not counters; there's a difference.

And Victory Star is alright if you're using Thunder, Focus Blast or Fire Blast.

Masteryoshimon
25th January 2011, 12:52 PM
It's viable in OU. A lot of Pokemon have a niche in OU that means they're viable. Sturdy Lv 1 Aron is ruined by hazards (common) and Ghosts (Chandelure and Jellicent say hi) but can be used to effect. Does not mean it's good enough to be consistently used by a large number of players in order to officially make OU.


When I mean "viable," I mean that it's powerful enough to produce consistent
results when use. It can be used effectively in a wide variety of situations rather than a few select ones, or gimmicky ones.




Try and switch Victini in on a Crunch or Stone Edge from Ttar, or an Earthquake from Swampert (who uses it any more?). I'm sure it won't end well. It checks them, not counters; there's a difference.

And Victory Star is alright if you're using Thunder, Focus Blast or Fire Blast.

Point, Victini is a risky Pokemon to switch in, you'd have to switch in when there's a low risk for a OHKO. And Swampert is still a popular choice, not as popular, but it has it's uses.

And I thought Victory Star only works in double and triple battle? And even at 80% accuracy, their are better alternatives to Thunder and Fire Blast. Focus Blast is not bad though.

Ekul the Sarcastic
25th January 2011, 1:13 PM
Just look at PO's usage list- people aren't using Victini. He's 138th in usage- that's behind Magmortar. 100 base HP and defences are wasted on something that's got so many common weaknesses (including the SR weakness) and no recovery other than Rest. 100 speed is pretty fast, but not fast enough. 100 base Attack and SpAtk isn't bad, by any means, but it's not good enough to really do damage without its STABs. Most importantly... it's weak to the metagame. It does badly against rain (of course), especially since the better rain sweepers are neutral to Thunder. It does poorly against sand, as well, since it's *just* slower than Landorus and Garchomp, slower than Terakion and naturally far slower than Excadrill. It also hates sand wearing its HP away. Victini might be an OK stallbreaker, but why use him over something like Infernape, who already has the whole 'anti-bulky water' thing covered with Grass Knot and actual Fighting STAB (not to mention SR neutrality).

It's not a bad Pokémon, but it requires a lot of hand-holding to work well (you need to stop SR coming down for a start) and it faces stiff competition from Blaziken and Infernape, who both have a better typing, higher offences, and better speed (even in PO's UU he's not seeing much use- he's the fourth most popular Fire type, behind Darmanitan, Arcanine and Chandelure). UU will be a lot more powerful this gen than last!

d0nut
25th January 2011, 5:37 PM
When I mean "viable," I mean that it's powerful enough to produce consistent
results when use. It can be used effectively in a wide variety of situations rather than a few select ones, or gimmicky ones.

I disagree with Victini being "viable" by your definition. In a metagame where Sand and Rain compete for dominance, there is not much room for Victini to "produce consistent results" since it just ends up dieing more than 70% of the time before it even does anything (though I suppose you could count dieing as consistent results.) The Pursuit and SR weakness doesn't help. I already outlined all this in my first post in this thread.

Smogon will probably end up banning something to make Rain more manageable and will end up banning Dory/Land to make Sand manageable as well. After this is done then Victini might see some use, though I still doubt it will be OU. There are still much better options than Victini, and 100 stats all around isn't enough these days. IIRC Celebi is at like #100 or below in usage so it won't see the light of OU for a while, and neither will Victini. Even though it was an Uber in every gen except this one, Mew isn't even seen that often (it ranks #151 in DW and #86 in WiFi according to PO statistics.)

Masteryoshimon
26th January 2011, 4:15 AM
I disagree with Victini being "viable" by your definition. In a metagame where Sand and Rain compete for dominance, there is not much room for Victini to "produce consistent results" since it just ends up dieing more than 70% of the time before it even does anything (though I suppose you could count dieing as consistent results.) The Pursuit and SR weakness doesn't help. I already outlined all this in my first post in this thread.

Smogon will probably end up banning something to make Rain more manageable and will end up banning Dory/Land to make Sand manageable as well. After this is done then Victini might see some use, though I still doubt it will be OU. There are still much better options than Victini, and 100 stats all around isn't enough these days. IIRC Celebi is at like #100 or below in usage so it won't see the light of OU for a while, and neither will Victini. Even though it was an Uber in every gen except this one, Mew isn't even seen that often (it ranks #151 in DW and #86 in WiFi according to PO statistics.)

With Rain, Victini can murder Bulky Waters with Thunder. I've already outlined counters to both SR and Pursuit. Let me re-iterate:

Pursuit only works when Victini tries to switch out, which would be a predictable move. So to counter it...don't switch out. Pursuit will only get 20 BP and Victini gets a free turn to damage the opponent. If the opponent is running Choice, then Victini can devastate them, or force them to switch out. Else, logically they won't use Pursuit again, after a failed attempt, and will try to resort to a different move, this is when Victini has the time to switch out.

With SR, it's become extremely popular, thus Rapid Spinners have also become popular and wide spread. Rapid Spin support will get rid of any pesky Rocks for Victini. And it should be rather obvious, if there's SR up, then don't switch in. If SR is put up when Victini is in battle, then you have to choices. If you have Heal support, and you think you can heal, try switching out. Else, fight to the death :).

And Victini dying "70%" of the time before doing anything? Victini, unless running Cheer Up, will most likely be the types to do one attack that devastates opponents. Victini is sturdy enough that it can probably survive 2-4 moves at least which is enough to do massive damage to the opponent. I doubt it will die by OHKO, I've said this earlier to I believe.

Sandstorm is probably one of the biggest threat to Victini, but it's not an instant-killer. Sure it'll prep Victini for being KO'ed, but it'll take time. And unless you have a Sun team and Victini is running Solarbeam, then you shouldn't be majorly effected.

Victini shouldn't be put in the same boat as Mew and Celebi. They are different and fullfill different roles. Celebi is best used as a Baton-Passer, Victini as a Sweeper, Mew as a...a lot of things. Yes, Celebi can be a sweeper or a stall, but to a lesser extent, but Victini suits those roles better...well as a stall it's not bad, but the best either. One thing that sets Victini apart from Celebi and Mew, is that it can become a Suicide Gamble thanks to Extreme Risk. At max power it can hit 404 damage, just strong enough to knock out just about every pseudo-legend, save Garchomp. Victini also has two unique moves, that receive STAB and can destroy opponents. Victini also has a larger move-pool than Celebi, which leads to better and more varied move-sets. Victini has two less weaknesses then Celebi, and it doesn't have a 4x weakness that could be easily exploited. This can lead to a big difference in battle.

At this point in game, imo, the metagame hasn't settled yet. People are still experimenting with what works and what they like. It might take a while before it settles down.

d0nut
26th January 2011, 5:13 AM
With Rain, Victini can murder Bulky Waters with Thunder. I've already outlined counters to both SR and Pursuit. Let me re-iterate:

Just because Victini has Thunder doesn't mean its going to beat Rain...think before you post that. With Swift Swim, every Rain sweeper will outspeed it and KO with Surf/Waterfall/Hydro Pump. Good luck switching in, and if you do you still get outsped and lose anyway. Yes, we know you can pack a Rapid Spinner to remove Rocks, but tbh why dedicate a team slot for a spinner for a poke as bad as Victini when you could try to set up a sweep for something more worthwhile like Urugamosu?


Pursuit only works when Victini tries to switch out, which would be a predictable move. So to counter it...don't switch out. Pursuit will only get 20 BP and Victini gets a free turn to damage the opponent. If the opponent is running Choice, then Victini can devastate them, or force them to switch out. Else, logically they won't use Pursuit again, after a failed attempt, and will try to resort to a different move, this is when Victini has the time to switch out.

Your arguement against Pursuit is also pretty flawed. Yes, you could very well predict the Pursuit and nail a Tar or something with Focus Blast, but what if a ScarfTar predicts you stay in and nails you with Stone Edge/Crunch? If you weren't Pursuit weak you wouldn't have to think twice about switching but since you are you have to play the prediction game which is not really in your favor.


With SR, it's become extremely popular, thus Rapid Spinners have also become popular and wide spread. Rapid Spin support will get rid of any pesky Rocks for Victini. And it should be rather obvious, if there's SR up, then don't switch in. If SR is put up when Victini is in battle, then you have to choices. If you have Heal support, and you think you can heal, try switching out. Else, fight to the death :).

Spinners aren't actually that popular. There are 5 spinners in OU: Dory, Starm, Tenta, Forry, and Cloyster. Tenta and Forry are mainly seen on stall teams where Victini doesn't belong, and Cloyster rarely carries RS. Starmie and Dory could be used on a team with Victini, but again why use Spin support to set up for a Victini sweep when you would have better results doing so with Urugamosu, Salamence, Gyarados, etc. 100 base offenses are decent, but are by no means anything to build a team around especially when Victini doesn't compare with more than half of the sweepers in OU.


And Victini dying "70%" of the time before doing anything? Victini, unless running Cheer Up, will most likely be the types to do one attack that devastates opponents. Victini is sturdy enough that it can probably survive 2-4 moves at least which is enough to do massive damage to the opponent. I doubt it will die by OHKO, I've said this earlier to I believe.

In a metagame where STAB EQs from Sand teams and Rain boosted Water attacks are being thrown around in just about every battle, yes its safe to say that Victini will be OHKO'd in nearly every game it plays. You think very highly of 100/100/100 defenses, and while they are no means bad, it doesn't help when pretty much every sweeper in this metagame has massive offensive stats and super effective moves. I would be impressed if Victini survived 2-4 moves in a match. At this point I'm starting to wonder if you have used Victini, or played much 5th gen at all...


Sandstorm is probably one of the biggest threat to Victini, but it's not an instant-killer. Sure it'll prep Victini for being KO'ed, but it'll take time. And unless you have a Sun team and Victini is running Solarbeam, then you shouldn't be majorly effected.

Its not the Sand which directly effects Victini, its the fact that every single sand sweeper outspeeds it and KOs it with EQ. If someone does run Solarbeam and they use it right when Tar switches in then they get a free kill. No one smart uses Solarbeam on any poke in a metagame where weather changes so frequently.


Victini shouldn't be put in the same boat as Mew and Celebi. They are different and fullfill different roles. Celebi is best used as a Baton-Passer, Victini as a Sweeper, Mew as a...a lot of things. Yes, Celebi can be a sweeper or a stall, but to a lesser extent, but Victini suits those roles better...well as a stall it's not bad, but the best either. One thing that sets Victini apart from Celebi and Mew, is that it can become a Suicide Gamble thanks to Extreme Risk. At max power it can hit 404 damage, just strong enough to knock out just about every pseudo-legend, save Garchomp. Victini also has two unique moves, that receive STAB and can destroy opponents. Victini also has a larger move-pool than Celebi, which leads to better and more varied move-sets. Victini has two less weaknesses then Celebi, and it doesn't have a 4x weakness that could be easily exploited. This can lead to a big difference in battle.

Yea, Victini is different from Mew and Celebi but that wasn't the reason I brought them up. I was simply stating that 100 in every base stat isn't as good as it used to be since you were using its stats in a lot of your arguements. Hitting 404 damage is nice, but when it comes at the cost of a poke it just isn't worth it, and it certainly isn't a good enough reason to become OU. I also feel its unfair to say Victini has a larger movepool than Celebi...a larger offensive movepool maybe, but when it comes to defense/support, Celebi has a pretty annoying movepool. Celebi having more weaknesses also doesn't make it worse, especially when Victini's weaknesses are MUCH more common.


At this point in game, imo, the metagame hasn't settled yet. People are still experimenting with what works and what they like. It might take a while before it settles down.

True, but Victini still doesn't look very promising. When considering something for OU you have to look at how it compares to everything else, and it really doesn't stand out very much against some of the more common threats at this point.

Yukianesa
17th April 2011, 1:41 AM
Has no one thought of a bulky victini? sure its weaknesses are big, but it can pull of as a great lead/Fighting counter/steel counter. Heres the set i use and it works for me very well
Victini @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
Ability: Victory Star
Evs: 252 hp/64 def/192 Special Attk
-Taunt
-Will-o-wisp
-Flamethrower/Psychic
-Thunder

-So this Victini is meant counter Threats like Bulk Up Conkeldurr, Drizzle Politoad leads, any other fighting types like Lucario and Infernape and the very prevalent steel types such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory,Metagross and for that matter can mess up Gigalith leads. The choice between Flamethrower and Psychic is made based on whether your team has a problem with steels or fighting types. If the answer is Steels, then go with Flamethrower and if the answer is Fightings, go with psychics.
-For partner options, anything that can set up entry hazards is good. Swampert is probably the best teammate for it has great synergy, as water and fire types do. especially since Victini eats grass knots and Swampert eats any rock and water move. Swampert can lay Stealth Rocks up and Deals with ScarfChomp very well, two things that put Victini in a very good position. Tentacruel also makes a decent partner being able to spin away rocks and lay up Toxic Spikes. Donphan also makes a good partner being able to spin away rocks, set up spikes and can deal with Heatran who can pretty much wall this set otherwise.
-With Base 100 defenses, it can switch in on many big threats and burn them, prevent them from setting up or even flat out kill them.
-For other options you could use Searing Shot or Fire Blast over flamethrower for the extra damage but the PP on both moves are terrible, something that should be considered when factoring in the usefulness of Victini

windsong
17th April 2011, 2:11 AM
With Rain, Victini can murder Bulky Waters with Thunder. I've already outlined counters to both SR and Pursuit. Let me re-iterate:

Pursuit only works when Victini tries to switch out, which would be a predictable move. So to counter it...don't switch out. Pursuit will only get 20 BP and Victini gets a free turn to damage the opponent. If the opponent is running Choice, then Victini can devastate them, or force them to switch out. Else, logically they won't use Pursuit again, after a failed attempt, and will try to resort to a different move, this is when Victini has the time to switch out.

Yeah but you're also risking taking the Crunch / Stone Edge that also kills you, so if you switch out, Victini will die, if you don't switch out, it'll probably die anyways, just possibly slightly more slowly in case they use Pursuit (btw it has 40 base power without them switching, not 20, and it actually does a pretty damn large amount of damage to it even if it doesn't switch out).


With SR, it's become extremely popular, thus Rapid Spinners have also become popular and wide spread. Rapid Spin support will get rid of any pesky Rocks for Victini. And it should be rather obvious, if there's SR up, then don't switch in. If SR is put up when Victini is in battle, then you have to choices. If you have Heal support, and you think you can heal, try switching out. Else, fight to the death :).

Yeah and with Spinners becoming more popular so have spinblockers!111!. No seriously, and then you also have to consider that like, the only half good spinner in this meta is Dory, who's not exactly spinning past common offensive spinblockers like Gengar, and can't OHKO common defensive spinblockers like Burungeru easily. Also Spikes are popular too, and with Spikes and Rocks up, Victini isn't exactly doing well when switching in.


And Victini dying "70%" of the time before doing anything? Victini, unless running Cheer Up, will most likely be the types to do one attack that devastates opponents. Victini is sturdy enough that it can probably survive 2-4 moves at least which is enough to do massive damage to the opponent. I doubt it will die by OHKO, I've said this earlier to I believe.
Survive 2 - 4 moves? Yeah, I'm sure your max HP / max Defense Victini can take 2 - 4 Power Whips from Ferrothorn, but is it going to be taking hits from TTar and Terakion and hard hitters like that well? Hell no. With Rocks up, it's lucky to take one hit -- 100/100/100 defenses aren't all that bulky what with all the incredible new offensive powerhouses thrown into the metagame now, and one attack from Victini isn't going to "devastate" anything other than a level 2 Ferroseed. 100/100 offenses, to put it simply, aren't that good anymore.


Sandstorm is probably one of the biggest threat to Victini, but it's not an instant-killer. Sure it'll prep Victini for being KO'ed, but it'll take time. And unless you have a Sun team and Victini is running Solarbeam, then you shouldn't be majorly effected.

I still had some belief that I should take you seriously until you said Solarbeam.


Victini shouldn't be put in the same boat as Mew and Celebi. They are different and fullfill different roles. Celebi is best used as a Baton-Passer, Victini as a Sweeper, Mew as a...a lot of things. Yes, Celebi can be a sweeper or a stall, but to a lesser extent, but Victini suits those roles better...well as a stall it's not bad, but the best either. One thing that sets Victini apart from Celebi and Mew, is that it can become a Suicide Gamble thanks to Extreme Risk. At max power it can hit 404 damage, just strong enough to knock out just about every pseudo-legend, save Garchomp. Victini also has two unique moves, that receive STAB and can destroy opponents. Victini also has a larger move-pool than Celebi, which leads to better and more varied move-sets. Victini has two less weaknesses then Celebi, and it doesn't have a 4x weakness that could be easily exploited. This can lead to a big difference in battle.

Who the hell uses Celebi as a Baton Passer...it's not exactly been its main use since Adv.
Who gives a **** about pseudo legends.
Victini's "larger movepool than celebi" doesn't really matter since most of Victini's movepool sort of sucks.
The fact that Victini has two less weaknesses than Celebi doesn't really matter because it still has all of the important weaknesses, and more importantly is weak to Rocks.


At this point in game, imo, the metagame hasn't settled yet. People are still experimenting with what works and what they like. It might take a while before it settles down.
Good thing that the meta's now more settled and we know that victini sort of sucks!

Yukianesa
17th April 2011, 3:06 AM
Survive 2 - 4 moves? Yeah, I'm sure your max HP / max Defense Victini can take 2 - 4 Power Whips from Ferrothorn, but is it going to be taking hits from TTar and Terakion and hard hitters like that well? Hell no. With Rocks up, it's lucky to take one hit -- 100/100/100 defenses aren't all that bulky what with all the incredible new offensive powerhouses thrown into the metagame now, and one attack from Victini isn't going to "devastate" anything other than a level 2 Ferroseed. 100/100 offenses, to put it simply, aren't that good anymore.


Who the hell uses Celebi as a Baton Passer...it's not exactly been its main use since Adv.
Who gives a **** about pseudo legends.
Victini's "larger movepool than celebi" doesn't really matter since most of Victini's movepool sort of sucks.
The fact that Victini has two less weaknesses than Celebi doesn't really matter because it still has all of the important weaknesses, and more importantly is weak to Rocks.


Good thing that the meta's now more settled and we know that victini sort of sucks!

Victini is a good pokemon. it has its flaws, as all pokemon do, but to say that a pokemon that can throw around Fire blasts, Thunder, and Focus blasts, with better accuracy than most pokes, coupled with a base 100 Special attack and a life orb, sucks, is completely wrong. it can be very powerful and i am pretty sure TTar and Terrakion will not switch in to a Victini knowing it carries Focus Blast. Weakness to Rocks diminishes its merit, but given the fact that most spin blockers are usually killed off as quick as possible or rendered useless and that they're either frail or slow, spinning isnt hard. Doryuzu usually packs shadow claw and can take a jellicent easily, and with sandstorm up (whether you induce it or not) its faster than everything in the game making it even better at spinning. Like every pokemon, Victini can be amazing with the right teamates, without any set up.

d0nut
17th April 2011, 3:45 AM
Victini is a good pokemon. it has its flaws, as all pokemon do, but to say that a pokemon that can throw around Fire blasts, Thunder, and Focus blasts, with better accuracy than most pokes, coupled with a base 100 Special attack and a life orb, sucks, is completely wrong. it can be very powerful and i am pretty sure TTar and Terrakion will not switch in to a Victini knowing it carries Focus Blast. Weakness to Rocks diminishes its merit, but given the fact that most spin blockers are usually killed off as quick as possible or rendered useless and that they're either frail or slow, spinning isnt hard. Doryuzu usually packs shadow claw and can take a jellicent easily, and with sandstorm up (whether you induce it or not) its faster than everything in the game making it even better at spinning. Like every pokemon, Victini can be amazing with the right teamates, without any set up.

I agree with epic_eevee, Victini does suck. At least when you compare it to everything else this gen has to offer. Sure, Tar and Terra aren't switching in, but if Victini attempts to sweep it will be easily revenge killed. Trying to kill off your opponents spin blocker just to give something as mediocre as Victini a chance to sweep is a wasted effort at best. Volcarona would be better to support as it actually has a shot at sweeping the opponents whole team if it sets up. Even if you succeed in spinning you will just get revenge killed by one of the countless things which outspeed Victini. Also Excadrill never uses Shadow Claw and for good reason. STAB neutral EQ does more than super effective Shadow Claw, and Exca needs a SD in order to KO Jelly either way. If you are going to use Excadrill to support Victini you would be better off just trying to sweep with Exca. Besides, using Excadrill effectively requires Sand while Victini will only do respectable damage in the Sun so its kind of a conflict of interests there...

Zachmac
17th April 2011, 3:54 AM
Victini's got great movie moves.
Even if you succeed in spinning you will just get revenge killed by one of the countless things which outspeed Victini ...Unless it uses nitro charge. Mine is a nitro charger.

Yukianesa
17th April 2011, 3:56 AM
I agree with epic_eevee, Victini does suck. At least when you compare it to everything else this gen has to offer. Sure, Tar and Terra aren't switching in, but if Victini attempts to sweep it will be easily revenge killed. Trying to kill off your opponents spin blocker just to give something as mediocre as Victini a chance to sweep is a wasted effort at best. Volcarona would be better to support as it actually has a shot at sweeping the opponents whole team if it sets up. Even if you succeed in spinning you will just get revenge killed by one of the countless things which outspeed Victini. Also Excadrill never uses Shadow Claw and for good reason. STAB neutral EQ does more than super effective Shadow Claw, and Exca needs a SD in order to KO Jelly either way. If you are going to use Excadrill to support Victini you would be better off just trying to sweep with Exca. Besides, using Excadrill effectively requires Sand while Victini will only do respectable damage in the Sun so its kind of a conflict of interests there...
Wow. if it wasnt for the fact that everytime i used Victini, it hasn't let me down once, i would actually believe it sucked.

d0nut
17th April 2011, 5:02 AM
Victini's got great movie moves. ...Unless it uses nitro charge. Mine is a nitro charger.

His movie moves are decent, though iirc his V-Create doesn't even hit as hard as Darmanitan's Flare Blitz so its not as great as it seems, plus theres the drawbacks to consider. Either way, Flame Charge is probably one of Victini's better sets though its still somewhat outclassed and it would need 2 boosts to stand up to Excadrill. Again, when you consider that his 100/100 offenses are somewhat lacking by this gens standards he won't be making OU anytime soon. I could still see him doing well in UU.


Wow. if it wasnt for the fact that everytime i used Victini, it hasn't let me down once, i would actually believe it sucked.

I find it hard to believe that he hasn't even let you down once. If this is really the case then you should probably try battling someone who is at least somewhat decent at OU battling.

windsong
17th April 2011, 5:15 AM
Victini is a good pokemon. it has its flaws, as all pokemon do, but to say that a pokemon that can throw around Fire blasts, Thunder, and Focus blasts, with better accuracy than most pokes, coupled with a base 100 Special attack and a life orb, sucks, is completely wrong. it can be very powerful and i am pretty sure TTar and Terrakion will not switch in to a Victini knowing it carries Focus Blast. Weakness to Rocks diminishes its merit, but given the fact that most spin blockers are usually killed off as quick as possible or rendered useless and that they're either frail or slow, spinning isnt hard. Doryuzu usually packs shadow claw and can take a jellicent easily, and with sandstorm up (whether you induce it or not) its faster than everything in the game making it even better at spinning. Like every pokemon, Victini can be amazing with the right teamates, without any set up.

....wow

Fire Blasts, Thunders, and Focus Blasts really don't hit that hard off of only 100 base SpA. Spec. Defense Tar can probably actually take a Focus Blast from this thing, and anyhow, both it and Terakion can switch in on 3/4 of its common moveset, making it pretty safe if you can lure/predict at all. No one ever runs Shadow Claw on Dory if they know what they're doing, and you're hitting Burungeru harder with Earthquake anyways.

"Victini can be amazing with the right teammates" is a completely idiotic argument. A ****ing Pikachu can be good with the right teammates, but there's no point in using it unless you're running a gimmick team, because frankly, there's stuff that, like d0nut said, is way easier to support. And stuff that you should be using that outclasses Victini if you're using Rapid Spin support (like Ulgamoth).