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View Full Version : Rate my 3rd Gen. Team?...Again?



KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 1:07 AM
Okay, now I am going to try my team Competitive wise.. and by the way, they are now all at level 100 (to the guy who banned my post before). If I mess up or forget to add something, please tell/remind me instead of taking my post down, by the way. :/

Gengar (Modest) @ Petyra Berry (Phantom)
Ability: Levitate
Ice Punch
Thunderbolt
Psychic
Will-o-Wisp

Lets start out with Gengar. He is strong, one of the best annoyers and Special Attackers in 3rd Gen (opinion), which makes him a great pokemon to be on my team. But why is he the starter? Easy. First, it being a Special Attacker, a pokemon switching in with the Ability Itimidate, lets say, Salamence, switches in, it ruins its not-in-use Attack.
Now surely that isn't the only reason why it is my starter. It being as quick, yet powerful as it is, it makes it a great candidate for Will-O-Wisp. It being a Will-O-Wisper makes it tons of a lot easier for it to take out Physical Attackers, and with its low defences, it really needs it. Will-O-Wisp is also there for other pokemon to make easy switch-ins, such as Quagsire/Snorlax/Heracross which I will get to later. Thunderbolt + Ice Punch is for the BoltBeam coverage, and Psychic is there for incoming Gengar's, Heracross', Hariyama, Machamp's, and is picked over Giga Drain because Psychic, like Giga Drain, will still 2HKO Swampert's with Will-O-Wisp on it's side. Petyra Berry is used to take advantage of it's speed, considering it will usually hit first, Petyra Berry is there to give it the boost in its Special Attack that it needs.

Quagsire (Adament) @ Leftovers (Gummy)
Ability: Water Absorb
Curse
Yawn
Ancient Power
Earthquake
"Quagsire", you must be thinking, "people use that in 3rd Gen.?" No, I just so happen to see the best in this little, soft creature. I know Swampert outclasses Quagsire in a lot of ways, but not the way I use him. For example, Water Absord. Water Absord, is something that atleast lets me recognize him against Swampert. Water Absord now lets it takes hits from Electric AND Water type moves. Which makes it a whole lot easier on switching in on pokemon like Milotic's (its Ice Beams can't even 3HKO it with Leftovers) and pokemon like Electrabuzz and Curse enough times so when the opponent switches it, gives it enough time to get its Attack and Defence in place. What else seperates Swampert from Quagsire you ask? Yawn. Yawn can force a switch that can give it time to use Curse once, and you can keep repeating this process until your opponent gets smart and lets it sleep, and switch out. But even then, that gives you 2 turns to Curse, which can give you an advantage overall in Attack and Defence. Gotta watch out though when Sceptile switches in. Earthquake and Ancient Power is mostly for coverage. Also Quagsire works well switching in after Gengar uses Will-O-Wisp.

Heracross (Careful) @ Salaac Berry (Heracules)
Ablility: Guts
Swords Dance
Rock Slide
Brick Break
Megahorn
Oh, how I love Heracross. With it being the strongest bug type in 3rd. Gen., there are many ways to use it, including with Guts (Sleep Talk + Rest). But I chose Swords Dance. Swords Dance is great, because within 2, your Attack has gone up by 4. Knowing that, I let my opponents attack me while I Swords Dance and then..Wham. Salaac Berry activates. The strategy is to Swords Dance 'till I'm low, activate Salaac, then attack. Though it can be hard to take the risk of Swords Dancing and risk a 0HKO, Heracross' defenses are pretty solid, so it can survive a hit or two. Megahorn is for the 180 base power and to take out Psychic types, Rock Slide is for Salamance, Legendary Birds, and Gayrados, while Brick Break is just there for Stab. This set dominates, including if I can predict a Toxic/Will-O-Wisp/ThunderWave, so I can switch it in, get the status, and attack 2times harder because of Guts :) Works alright when switching in after Gengar Will-O-Wisp

Sceptile (Modest) @ Petyra Berry (Raptor)
Ability: Overgrow
Leaf Blade
Crunch
Dragon Claw
Toxic
Sceptile, the man. This set is simple, attack anything that gets in my way, Toxic anything when I'm low and know I can't 0HKO. Simple. Petyra Berry is there to take advantage of Sceptile's Speed also, and after that comes into affect, also with the after-effects of OverGrow, Leaf Blade is proudly able to say it can 0HKO threats like Milotic/Starmie. Crunch are for Psychic's and Gengar's, and Dragon Claw is for Kingdra and Salamance. I tried getting Leech Seed on it, but sadly Leech Seed is not legal with Crunch. Sorry :L

Snorlax (Adament) @ Leftovers (Fatty)
Ablility: Thick Fat
Curse
Rest
Return
Shadow Ball
Average, but Destructive Snorlax. Curse's til it's tired from hard attacks, takes a nap and still gets coverage from Leftovers, wakes up and attacks. Easy as that, no questions asked. Return is AWESOME on Snorlax, including with its awesome attack, but also with the major stab that is given with it. Shadow Ball is for Gengar and Alakazam to get a taste of. Even though this set is weak to steel type pokemon, don't underestimate it, because Return with Stab is Stronger then a regular Hyper Beam, and with that said, then has a 70-80 base power against Steel types... and with Curse, it makes sure it is stronger. Thick Fat is there just so it can totally shut down Fire and Ice types, mostly because it's lack of Earthquake and Focus Punch. :L Works awesome when switching in after Gengar Will-O-Wisps.

Dragonite (Lonely) @ Lum Berry (Puff)
Ability: Inner Focus
Dragon Dance
Aerial Ace
Earthquake
Ice Beam
Average set for Dragonite. Dragon Dances 1-3 times, then attacks hard with Ariel Ace and Earthquake. Ice Beam is basically so pokemon like Salamance and Flygon won't troll it as it slowly kills them. Ice Beam, sadly usually only 3HKO's Skamory, but that is a minor problem. Aerial Ace 0HK0's Heracross, Earthquake is for coverage for Ice Beam. Lum Berry is there because Dragonite, no matter what, always needs to be healthy. Doesn't work that good switching in after Gengar Will-O-Wisps because of its Lonely Nature, but can sometimes get the job done when switching in (depending on pokemon).


Overall
I, so far, have only faced 4 people with this team. All won. Wooh. 2 of them weren't that good, one was my friend who usually beats me, and another was my neighbor who uses alot of OU pokemon.
It seemed my biggest troubles were Spikes. Skamory's spikes were not HUGE problems, considering I just put Gengar and Dragonite out, and that got me the game. But if both the pokemon had fainted, my other 4 people would be a bad condition.
It seems though Quagsire is a UU pokemon, it has actually done really good. The one problem though is that when I do the Yawn combo, I always forget to make sure I take out all the Grass pokemon out first on the opponents team.. besides that, it's doing great.
Dragonite is doing fine, it's just I sometimes wonder if I should have given it a Brave nature instead, considering Rock Slide either gets it low on health, or 2HKO's it.
Sceptile is a great pokemon, but it doesn't get a lot of moves that gives it..diversity. Dragon Claw + Crunch only takes out 3 types, and is hard to 0HKO when not super effective.
Snorlax is great, but going against a Milotic is hard considering it will 3HK0 you with Surf, besides the fact you have a high Special Defence, and Rest takes up 2 turns..
Besides that, my team seems to work out just fine.
Well, I hope I did it right this time. Please give me as much suggestions as you can, and I will try my best to follow :) If I missed anything just let me know, I was to lazy to find pictures for pokemon, but I don't think that matters, and of course, use the spoilers if you want to know why I chose the pokemon and what it does. Thanks :)

Also for EV's, though I DID EV train the team, I can't remember how I did it.. lol Sorry. If you guys could find it deep down inside you and just rate the team, that would be great; Thanks. :)

Gamefreak
5th April 2012, 2:37 AM
You did a great job on your thread this time. Although you forgot your EVs.

meteor64
5th April 2012, 4:29 AM
I can tell this is an ingame team, not a simulator team, so I'll understand its a slightly different metagame and you have limited access to some things, and I'll try and accomodate for it. That said, there are some glaring weaknesses and faults.

Psychic Gengar is highly questionable, of the things you stated, I only see Heracross switching in on Gengar, and even then, you have access to Fire Punch which also nails things like Metagross, Forretress, and Jirachi (if they have it), not to mention it reduces layers of prediction when theres the possibility of Skarmory, Venusaur or Celebi switching in (if this is ingame, I highly doubt they have Celebi). Oh, and give it Leftovers. You'll appreciate the longevity when they bring in a Tyranitar.

Quagsire is iffy. Without Curses it's simply crushed by anything with half decent stats, and with Curses it still does next to nothing to Skarmory. Not to mention this set has no method of recovery, which is what it desperately needs, but if you gave it Rest, you might as well just use Swampert.
Hint; Use Swampert. It's better. Water Absorb is not reliable recovery. Rest is. And the only thing you're walling with Water Absorb is Thunderbolt Starmie and Ice Beam-less Suicune.

Swords Dance Hera is normally fine, but I'm not understanding the Careful Nature. That would imply a bulky set, yet it has SD and Salac, and even then no Substitute. Either give it Adamant or Jolly and drop something for Substitute, or turn it into a bulky set with Rest and Sleep Talk. Don't play between them. If you opt to keep SD then I personally would prefer Leftovers as the item.

Your Sceptile set is rendered redundant by your Gengar, run SubSeed instead. Thats what it's best at, and it's just never going to outclass Gengar at outright attacking. Make use of your speedy Seed and be a prick with it. And give it Leftovers, the Tyranitar argument still stands (and it will make you way more annoying).

Lax is Lax. Not much to say about it.

You're using a Dragonite, but you're playing it like a Mence. The only thing yours has over Mence is Ice Beam, but why would you need it? If it comes to Mence on Nite, you've almost certainly lost. Either use a Mence or opt for a different set (like SubPunch). Also, LEFTOVERS ARE AMAZING. All Lum Berry really does is make you realise the Milotic who predicted you to switch out is just going to nail you with Ice Beam like they should've done in the first place. Oh, and again, good luck with sandstorm.

As for the team on a whole- Metagross destroys you. Pretty much any Metagross under the sun completely and utterly destroys you. You have nothing at all to a) take a hit from it and b) hit it back hard enough.
Salamence tears you apart. Banded or DD, it doesn't matter, both will wear you down quickly. You don't actually have a Flying resist, which is pretty bad, to say the least. Gyarados, too, can be problematic- thats assuming they don't have Hidden Power Flying, rather Double Edge. If they do have Hidden Power Flying Gyarados you can kiss any chance of victory goodbye, as they keep bringing it in on anything except Gengar, as literally nothing except Gengar can threaten it. Tyranitar will also have a field day, as most of your mons lack Lefties and you have nothing to really tank its attacks. RestTalk Swampert can beat pretty much your whole team except Sceptile and maybe Quagsire, both of which he can just wear down through switch ins and Spikes.

Spikes are also a massive issue. All your opponent has to do is lay down Spikes and then keep switching in Gengar, which your team has only Snorlax to answer with- and it won't take long for him to fall to a prickly demise. Not only that, but both Hera and Sceptile don't have Lefties, which means your ability to switch in at all is highly compounded when there are any Spikes on the field at all.

This brings us to the other elephant in the room, in that this has pretty much no defensive prowess whatsoever. I mean, you have things like no electric weakness, lots of grass and fire resist, fighting resists, etc, but you don't have anything to back it up. You can wall electric attacks all day, but an Ice Beam? All of a sudden your defenses look really shaky (especially since Spikes will wreck Lax). You have no physical walls, and physical walls are probably more important than special walls in ADV- What, on your team, wants to switch into a Choice Band Heracross? Or a Curselax? Or any other aforementioned threats? I'm not even considering things like Medicham and Slaking.

And finally, you will never get past SkarmBliss with this. Even SD Hera will be stopped by Skarmory and OHKOed by Drill Peck if you decide to chance it. Skarm laughs at Ice Beam D-Nite, blanks Lax, and sneers at Quagsire. Gengar and Sceptile will be doing nothing to Blissey.

I'm done criticising. I'll come back later with suggestions as to how to fix the holes. I need sleep.

KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 4:48 AM
So should I give it Fire Punch over Psychic?

Basically everything you mentioned there for Quagsire is it's main job. To stop Starmie, Suicane, Milotic, Lanturn, ect. ect. Quagsire has the ability with Water Absorb and Yawn, which I choose it over Swampert. Force a switch out, use Yawn, make another force. Curse while you watch your opponent run scared of a Quagsire ;) unless of course Execcutor/Sceptile switch in. FUUU----


I usually like Rest + Sleep Talk set, but I'm trying something different. Why Careful Nature? Basically so EV training wasn't going to be a female dog, but yeah, I probably should replace Rock Slide for Subsitute maybe..?

Lax is Lax. Wooh.

Dragonite is somewhat bulkier then Salamance, and is there to look pretty, but still hit hard. I looked at the movesets for Dragonite and Sub+Punch seems strong.. but that works better with a Quiet Nature. :L Should I exchange Ice Beam for Thunderbolt? It really needs Lum Berry. It needs the time to Dragon Dance. Seriously.

Sceptile...err... it's a great annoyer, but I've always looked down at Leech Seed + Sub, considering it has NO bulk whatsoever.

I notice your obsessed with Lefties, but Berries on fast pokemon (exception for Heracross) works pretty well (including because Sceptile gets Special Attack Boost, and then Overgrow gets in effect, and Leaf Blade can be a *****cut.).

Anyways, thanks for the suggestion, and answer my questions tomorrow. Thanks :)

meteor64
5th April 2012, 11:04 AM
So should I give it Fire Punch over Psychic?
I would say so. You're obviously set on not using Giga Drain, that would normally be my next suggestion. Of course, there's always alternate moves like Destiny Bond, or Taunt, but they're risk-reward moves, and I'm not sure that'd be the best thing.


Basically everything you mentioned there for Quagsire is it's main job. To stop Starmie, Suicane, Milotic, Lanturn, ect. ect. Quagsire has the ability with Water Absorb and Yawn, which I choose it over Swampert. Force a switch out, use Yawn, make another force. Curse while you watch your opponent run scared of a Quagsire ;) unless of course Execcutor/Sceptile switch in. FUUU----
You're missing the point. Yawn isn't doing anything when they have stuff like Milotic or a Sleep Talker to absorb it. Anything with Sub can laugh at you, and they will always set it up before you can Yawn. Toxic and Will-o-wisp render you beyond useless, and Hypnosis or Spore will stop you dead- these moves are carried by the very things you're trying to counter. A random Grass move will instantly kill you (as opposed to Swampert who will live most Grass attacks). And even if they somehow let you shuffle them with Yawn, they can just keep hitting you with whatever they bring in- this might be okay if you have Spikes, but you don't, so your shuffling will achieve absolutely nothing. Rest by FAR outclasses Yawn on this set, but as I said previously, you might as well run Swampert in that case, who does it a million times better.


I usually like Rest + Sleep Talk set, but I'm trying something different. Why Careful Nature? Basically so EV training wasn't going to be a female dog, but yeah, I probably should replace Rock Slide for Subsitute maybe..?
I don't understand what your nature has to do with EV training... that's a breeding issue. If you're keeping the Salac Berry, make sure your HP is divisible by 4. If not, you should lose Brick Break for Reversal and try a Reversal Sweeper (but when they show Tyranitar don't say I didn't warn you). Also, you'll want Swarm, not Guts.

But I really think you should put Leftovers on there.



Dragonite is somewhat bulkier then Salamance, and is there to look pretty, but still hit hard. I looked at the movesets for Dragonite and Sub+Punch seems strong.. but that works better with a Quiet Nature. :L Should I exchange Ice Beam for Thunderbolt? It really needs Lum Berry. It needs the time to Dragon Dance. Seriously. Wrong. Salamence is physically bulkier thanks to Intimidate. That, on the whole, is a lot more useful than the special bulk DNite has- simply because Ice Beam will kick your *** one way or another.
Thunderbolt is a lot better since it hits Skarmory. And Lum Berry isn't going to give you any more time to dance when most things with status moves have a nice Ice attack to throw at you. The only thing you're really stopping is Dusclops (who sometimes has Ice Beam anyway), who can be dealt with by hitting it every time it switches in and then getting out of the way to Snorlax, who can Rest off a burn. That is literally the only status user you'll commonly see without an Ice move.


Sceptile...err... it's a great annoyer, but I've always looked down at Leech Seed + Sub, considering it has NO bulk whatsoever.
The whole point of a SubSeeder is to make the most of their lack of bulk. Sceptile is easily the most annoying (and probably the best) SubSeeder out there. You have 120 Base Speed to make fast Subs with, an easy way to threaten Swampert, Donphan, locked Dugtrio, etc so you can get a Sub, and decent attacking stats for nailing things like the odd Alakazam trying to outspeed you. You'll want Timid Nature, but its a much better application of Sceptile.


I notice your obsessed with Lefties, but Berries on fast pokemon (exception for Heracross) works pretty well (including because Sceptile gets Special Attack Boost, and then Overgrow gets in effect, and Leaf Blade can be a *****cut.).
Except-
a) You're walled by Blissey so hard its not even funny
b) Sandstorm wrecks you so hard its not even funny
c) SubSeed will do you so much better so you're going to need Leftovers anyway


Atm, the team lacks any sort of direction. I'm just not sure what you're trying to do with it, and until then, I'm not sure how to improve it other than suggesting movesets. Apart from the fact you REALLY need a rapid Spinner.

LightningRevolver
5th April 2012, 12:23 PM
Why do you have Physical Attacks on SpAttackers with Modest and SpAttacks on PhysAttackers with Adamant?




Hey Wills, my friend, wanna suicide?

meteor64
5th April 2012, 12:44 PM
Why do you have Physical Attacks on SpAttackers with Modest and SpAttacks on PhysAttackers with Adamant?




Hey Wills, my friend, wanna suicide?

He doesn't. Fire/Ice Punch, Crunch, Leaf Blade, Dragon Claw are all Special. AncientPower is Physical.

KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 3:41 PM
Only thing I gotta say to this. FUUUUUUUUUUU-------

Anyways, Fire Punch over Psychic will be changed (even thought Weezing may hurt my team), Quagsire is staying, because for some reason I don't think you know what I'm doing with him yet.
HE WANTS TO GO AGAINST WATER TYPES. The only way this lil poke' is going to have it by make 2 switches in pretty much 1 turn, or I can get a extra curse up as I laugh my *** off when my opponent uses Surf, thinking it doesn't have Water Absorb.

But, you are truely right about Swampert. Swampert is better in taking Special Attacks (Grass is debatable..) and yeah, it can Rest without any trouble. But of course, since I' an ******* and get tired of using Swampert, Quagsire, DO NOT make me look dumb. If this was 4th Gen I'd probably use Swampert though..anyways that's off topic.

Heracross. Well, I'm doing breeding again, and I'm going to use the Sleep Talk combo. Two questions. First, what natures should I give it, and two, should it get Rock Slide for coverage, or Brick Break for Stab (not to mention Brick Break will be my best bet against Tyrantarar, if that's how you spell it)?

That looked more of an opinion on the Sub-Seed, but I think I'm keeping my thing for Petyra Berry reasons. Though I am probably going to change Sceptile to a Timid nature so it works better.

Wrong about Salamance. Salamance is only Bulkier in defence on ONE pokemon. At that, that Armadilo/whatever you call it still 0HK0's it with its low Defence. I probably will give it a Brave Nature and raise it again. Bleh. Also, I will change Ice Beam to Thunderbolt for Skamory reasons.

Blissey actually hasn't been a problem yet considering I pull out Heracross and just use Brick Break after she ThunderWaves me :)
When you say SandStorm I'm guessing you are referring to Tyrantatar, and at that, bleh. Bleh you.
I hate spamming Leftovers

Thanks for the review, also, if you think I should switch some pokemon out for a Rapid Spinner, that would be great. Thanks :)

KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 4:47 PM
I was thinking about changing Heracross for Hitmontop for a Rapid Spinner maybe..?

meteor64
5th April 2012, 4:58 PM
Only thing I gotta say to this. FUUUUUUUUUUU-------

[QUOTE]Anyways, Fire Punch over Psychic will be changed (even thought Weezing may hurt my team),
Weezing has no business with Gengar and does not want to take anything Gengar has to throw at it.


Quagsire is staying, because for some reason I don't think you know what I'm doing with him yet.
HE WANTS TO GO AGAINST WATER TYPES. The only way this lil poke' is going to have it by make 2 switches in pretty much 1 turn, or I can get a extra curse up as I laugh my *** off when my opponent uses Surf, thinking it doesn't have Water Absorb.
I totally understand what you want to do. And I'm telling you, it wont work.
Milotic will Toxic/Hypnosis you.
Starmie is entirely likely to have Ice Beam instead of Thunderbolt, or both.
Swampert has its own Earthquake, Ice Beam, Roar, and the odd Toxic to screw you over.
Lanturn (if you see it) will Toxic you.
Suicune will Roar/ Ice Beam.
Vaporeon has Ice Beam/ Toxic.
Gyarados will Taunt your Curses and Yawns. AncientPower will be doing nothing after Intimidate.
Cloyster has STAB Ice Beam and will also probably take the opportunity to Spike in your face, which is the worst thing that could possibly happen.
Lapras is similar but without the Spikes.
Slowbro can nail you with STAB Psychic and really doesn't care about anything you throw at it.
Ludicolo will laugh at you with pretty much all its moves and will tank Earthquakes like nothing.
Kingdra is likely to carry Toxic.

That list contains every somewhat viable Water type in OU. They can all ruin your Quagsire. It just will not work.




But, you are truely right about Swampert. Swampert is better in taking Special Attacks (Grass is debatable..) and yeah, it can Rest without any trouble. But of course, since I' an ******* and get tired of using Swampert, Quagsire, DO NOT make me look dumb. If this was 4th Gen I'd probably use Swampert though..anyways that's off topic.
I'm not telling you you're dumb. I appreciate it when people try and go for the unconventional approach, but only when it has a niche. This simply doesn't. If you don't want to use Swampert, but still want something unconventional, try Poliwrath. It has Water Absorb, Bulk Up, Fighting STAB, Hypnosis- essentially the same role, but its not trying to be a Swampert.



Heracross. Well, I'm doing breeding again, and I'm going to use the Sleep Talk combo. Two questions. First, what natures should I give it, and two, should it get Rock Slide for coverage, or Brick Break for Stab (not to mention Brick Break will be my best bet against Tyrantarar, if that's how you spell it)?Megahorn kills it just fine. Use Rock Slide.


That looked more of an opinion on the Sub-Seed, but I think I'm keeping my thing for Petyra Berry reasons. Though I am probably going to change Sceptile to a Timid nature so it works better.
Its your loss. Really. I'm trying to help. SubSeed doesn't render you offenseless, you still have Leaf Blade and an attack of your choosing. Sub Seed allows you to do something to Blissey. Petaya allows you to get walled by her. Toxic doesn't help because of Natural Cure and Aromatherapy, and she can just Thuder Wave you and you're screwed. Dragon Claw and Crunch have no coverage together, you're still walled by Steels anyway. Leech Seed lets you do something. Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Blade/ Crunch would be better in every single way.


Wrong about Salamance. Salamance is only Bulkier in defence on ONE pokemon. At that, that Armadilo/whatever you call it still 0HK0's it with its low Defence. I probably will give it a Brave Nature and raise it again. Bleh. Also, I will change Ice Beam to Thunderbolt for Skamory reasons. You're missing the point again. You're making up scenarios that will never exist. Of course you don't switch Mence into Armaldo, thats just dumb. But things like Skarmory Drill Peck, CB Heracross Focus Punch/Megahorn, you will be able to tank a whole lot better, and consequently force them out and get a free Dragon Dance. Intimidating that ONE pokemon is way more important than you think.
Also, Brave nature is really counterproductive on a dancer. Stick with the nature you have.


Blissey actually hasn't been a problem yet considering I pull out Heracross and just use Brick Break after she ThunderWaves me :)
If she Thunder Waves you then she should switch out. Thats just your opponent being dumb.

When you say SandStorm I'm guessing you are referring to Tyrantatar, and at that, bleh. Bleh you.
I hate spamming Leftovers

Tyranitar is one of the best pokemon in the game, and to not be prepared for it is pretty much suicidal. Leftovers are SO important in ADV it's not even worth joking about. You should have them on pretty much everything, barring Choice Banders.

KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 5:15 PM
Okay, well now I'm going to change Quagsire for PoliWarth *tear*
Here's what it is going to look like
Politwarth @ Salac Berry
Nature: Jolly
Substitute
Belly Drum
Brick Break
Hidden Power Ghost
Never mind that, would it still work if I used Vapeon?
If so, can you post some movesets for it? I have some ideas, but might as well get it from you.

What nature for Sleep Talking Heracross?

Crunch with Leech Seed is illegal (which is why I have Toxic)

Also, should I get Hitmontop as a Rapid Spinner (of course, I'm getting Poliwarth too though..)

meteor64
5th April 2012, 6:11 PM
Okay, well now I'm going to change Quagsire for PoliWarth *tear*
Here's what it is going to look like
Politwarth @ Salac Berry
Nature: Jolly
Substitute
Belly Drum
Brick Break
Hidden Power Ghost
Never mind that, would it still work if I used Vapeon?
I assume you mean Vaporeon? If so, Vaporeon would benefit you greatly, yes. Wish would do your team wonders, and it'll also provide you with a nice bulky Water to throw in the way of Salamence and Metagross. I'd advise running Ice Beam instead of Toxic so that you can actually deal with Mence. You'll want the basic Vappy set-
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Bold Nature, 252 HP/ 224 Def/ 32 Sp.Def
Surf
Ice Beam
Wish
Protect


What nature for Sleep Talking Heracross?
Careful, and you'll want max HP and loads of Sp. Def investment. He can wall a lot of special threats completely, and those he can't wall are generally Psychics that die to Megahorn.


Crunch with Leech Seed is illegal (which is why I have Toxic) Use Dragon Claw then. I'm used to using Hidden Power, which you probably won't have access to, but still, Leaf Blade + Dragon Claw covers the same as Leaf Blade + Crunch. Leech Seed will be your Toxic, you can do away with it. Without Leech Seed not only does Blissey wall you, but every Steel type as well.


Also, should I get Hitmontop as a Rapid Spinner (of course, I'm getting Poliwarth too though..)
Probably not Hitmontop. Claydol is your best bet for a dedicated spinner, because not only does it Levitate over the Spikes you are spinning, but it also has STAB Psychic to deal with Gengar who love to come and block your Rapid Spins. Also, it serves as a great Tyranitar counter (which Vaporeon can't do) and gives you more tanking capability. You do have to lose something to put it on the team.... I'd say Dragonite.

KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 6:25 PM
Your killing me man, killin' me slowly.

Also that set Vaporeon was the one I was talking about but I REALLY wanted to use Toxic. But your the boss.

I probably will train Heracross again then, considering I had a Careful Nature, but rarely EV trained it in Special Defence...

Okay. Do I HAVE to use Timid nature for this set? I have a GameShark and getting a Timid nature is just going to add one more pokemon to train..

Really... Dragonite.... KILLING ME SLOWLY.

KingWiggins
5th April 2012, 11:14 PM
Or should I try a Jolly Natured Salac Berry Swords Dancer..?

(Minus Revenge/Reversal)

meteor64
6th April 2012, 9:10 AM
You're the boss. I'm just the advisor. :p

Toxic would be really sweet. I originally suggested Ice Beam because you had nothing else to deal with Mence, but if you run Claydol, you can slap Ice Beam on that instead and give Toxic to Vappy. HOWEVER, you would then either miss out on Earthquake, Psychic or Rest, which could provide problems. Without Psychic you have trouble with Gengar, Earthquake deals with Tyranitar and Raikou in a pinch, Rest lets you survive a bit longer. Personally, I wouldn't be averse to Rapid Spin/Earthquake/Psychic/Ice Beam in this situation, since you have Wish support with Vaporeon.

For Hera, put it this way- Swords Dance would leave you in trouble vs Skarmory, since it can switch in all day and wall you, while you have no method of recovery (outside of a Wish). Anyone who has Tyranitar + Skarm would wear down Heracross easily. RestTalk wouldn't actually let you hurt Skarmory, but it would give you survivability to the point where you could eventually wear down Skarmory and then bring in Gengar as it Rests, and then begin chipping away at their team with Thunderbolts, Will-o-Wisps, etc. Of course, if they have SkarmBliss, you're not going to get anywhere with that.

Timid nature would give you a massive advantage over Modest. Having a guarantee on outspeeding Gengar, Starmie and friends is pretty important. It also means you can guarantee to outspeed things like a Tyranitar after a Dragon Dance, and the odd Dugtrio that isn't running max Speed (which is VERY nice).

And I suggested Dragonite because it was the most practical thing to lose. You currently have nothing to resist Tyranitar or Flygon Rock Slides, and Dragonite wouldn't help there at all. You still retain the Ice weakness, but thats what Snorlax is for. Grass attacks can also be handled by Snorlax, and the best part is that since you're on a cartridge you don't need to worry about HP Grass Raikou (who would do a good job at wearing you down). However Crunch Raikou would be just as bad. I'm not sure many would bother though.

I still see a huge problem with SkarmBliss. The only way I can ever see you beating it is through last man Curselax. The most replaceable thing on there at the moment is Heracross, IMO.

KingWiggins
6th April 2012, 3:02 PM
I hate SkarBliss...as that I had a goddamn Blissey too.. just never into Skamory :L

Well thanks for all your help, I'm going to set out and approve my team. When I come back I will probably edit. One more thing though.. does Claydol have to be a Rapid spinner..?
I was thinking of a nice set...

Claydol @ Leftovers
Nature: Quiet
Earthquake
Psychic
Cosmic Power
Rest

Would that work?

meteor64
6th April 2012, 6:52 PM
You need Rapid Spin. There is no question about it. And that set is poor, all it takes is a critical Ice Beam and you're done. It doesn't pose any threat at all, yet it's trying to set up, which basically means it can be phazed forever and achieve nothing. Rapid Spin is SOOOO much more important.

KingWiggins
6th April 2012, 9:43 PM
Would it be cool if I tried out on Dragonite with noRapid spinner? I mean, Gengar 0HKO's Skarmory with Thunderbolt. and Forres- whatever you call him with Fire Punch. :L
I was thinking:
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Nature: Unknown (thinking about Quiet)
Thunder Wave
Heal Bell
Earthquake
Ice Beam

Easy to use. I start out with Thunder Wave (to make it annoying or somewhat) and just attack. Simple as that. Somebody Will-O-Wisp's, Toxic's, or Blissey ThunderWaves me I just Heal Bell it off. EQ and Ice Beam is for coverage.

If not I'll just use
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Substitute
Focus Punch
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt

??? Would that be fine?

meteor64
6th April 2012, 11:38 PM
Would it be cool if I tried out on Dragonite with noRapid spinner? I mean, Gengar 0HKO's Skarmory with Thunderbolt. and Forres- whatever you call him with Fire Punch.

No, its totally not. If you wan't to go down the route of straight up killing the Spikers, you need Magneton (make sure you have Magnet Pull!!!), otherwise they get away and just come back later. Even then, Cloyster still gets away scot free (possibly to a Dugtrio) and will just come in later. I wouldn't suggest Claydol if I didn't think it was best.

And Gengar doesn't OHKO Skarm, they all run a bit of Sp. Def which means your Thunderbolt will be doing between 60-80ish % depending on EVs.

Kansas_Rocks!
7th April 2012, 5:01 AM
If you want a better move for your Sceptile over Toxic, it does get ThunderPunch as a tutor move. It does get coverage on flying types.

KingWiggins
7th April 2012, 5:39 AM
If you want a better move for your Sceptile over Toxic, it does get ThunderPunch as a tutor move. It does get coverage on flying types.

It honestly does it no good, and the only reason why that would be even remotely a good idea if I was really scared of Garyados (or however you spell it. Come at me, Nazis).

meteor64
7th April 2012, 11:10 AM
If you want a better move for your Sceptile over Toxic, it does get ThunderPunch as a tutor move. It does get coverage on flying types.

Not to mention Steel Types (which currently you can only Leech Seed really). Its a totally viable option, but you do miss out on doing something to other Grass types who wall the Electric/Grass combo. Its totally your choice though, as there are considerably more Steels to hit than Grasses.

KingWiggins
29th April 2012, 9:01 PM
Not to mention Steel Types (which currently you can only Leech Seed really). Its a totally viable option, but you do miss out on doing something to other Grass types who wall the Electric/Grass combo. Its totally your choice though, as there are considerably more Steels to hit than Grasses.

Changes:

Gengar @ Petyra Berry
Nature: Modest
Thunderbolt
Ice Punch
Fire Punch/Psychic
Will-O-Wisp

Set is basically the same, but I am wondering, should I keep Fire Punch to kill Forrestress and Scizor, of Psychic for Machamp and Heracross... I mean, Machamp can beat Gengar EASILY if it has Rock Slide, so I think Psychic could work in this spot. Celebi will get crushed by Fire Punch, Rock Sliding Machamp, including without a Flying type move, will run over it, and maybe get lucky against my team...
Will-O-Wisp goes good with Petyra Berry with its great speed, making it an annoyer and with W-O-W, moves that would KO it has a chance of bringing it down on red instead.
I don't like Giga Drain, considering it will only do good against Swampert, but Will-O-Wisp and Ice Punch/Switching out to Ludicolo fixes that.

Quagsire @ Leftovers (Water Absorb)
Nature: Adamant
Yawn
Curse
Earthquake
Ancient Power

I still don't think you understand Quagsire's job. Quagsire is here to stop Water's, and set up on them. Starmie can't even 3HKO Quagsire with Leftovers, and with that Special Attack, what do you think OTHER waters can do to Quagsire? Sure, they can Toxic Quagsire, but Quagsire will still set up on them and run them over. Only Vaporeon will have Substitute, but Earthquake takes care of that. It wants pokemon to switch out as it sets up and regains health again. Sure, it can't take a Special Attack as good as Swampert, but most things that 2HK0 Swampert does the same to Quagsire because of its HP. Quagsire's job is simple, and I love seeing the look on my opponents faces as I take out a Milotic, Lanturn, Vapeon, and Starmie with an UU pokemon they would have never thought they would ever see. Yawn is also under estimated. Yawn will help Quagsire to set up and cause switches, which works pretty efficiently with Leftovers. I love Quagsire as a pokemon, but I see why you would want me to use Swampert, but hell, I see the best in this little glob. Ancient Power is just there for coverage, and also when it hits has a chance of raising all of its stats, making it somewhat bulkier, and giving it higher attack.

Heracross @ Salac Berry (Guts)
Nature: Jolly
Swords Dance
Megahorn
Brick Break
Rock Slide

Jolly + Salac Berry set can run over anything that gets in its path, and also will catch Tyrantatar off guard thinking it is a Reversal set. Swords Dance speaks for itself. Jolly + Salac is one of those sets that is "don't diss it 'till you try it", because it looks ridiculous, but works as one of the best sets for him. Smogon may say otherwise, but this set goes hard.

Ludicolo @ Leftovers (Rain Dish)
Dive
Seismic Toss
Leech Seed
Rain Dance

This set has great coverage, awesome recoveries, and counters Tyrantatar's Sand Stream. Leech Seed + Rain Dance + Leftovers is to gain health back easily, and still hurt it at the same time. It also weakens Fire and Grass type moves a bit, which makes life easier for this thing. Dive is to let it get 6 recoveries before it gets hit again, and hits hard with a STAB Dive at the end of the turn, powered by Rain Dance. Seismic toss is there to is has coverage and can take out Substitutes that don't have over 100 HP. Clever, yet dangerous set that will catch people off guard. Also, just a FYI, if Ludicolo faints while Rain Dance is still on, bringing out Quagsire is great because moves like Surf that is powered by Rain will only heal it, Thunder doesn't effect it, and Grass and Fire type moves are weakened. This can make a simple UU pokemon seem like a god when you need it.

Snorlax is the same, blah blah blah.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Nature: Quiet
Substitute
Focus Punch
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

SubPunch set that will not just catch people off guard, but counters the SkarBliss almost perfectly. When they send Blissey out, it uses Substitute while Blissey uses Thunder Wave, which means Blissey will either take a FP to the face, or they will send out Skarmory who will take the hit, only to get hit by Thunderbolt the next turn. Good thing about this set is that even though it is a Quiet nature, everything that is slower than it naturally will still be slower, while everything that was faster still will be faster. SubPunch Dragonite will catch teams off guard, and at that, it will catch Tyrantatar without Substitute off-guard, considering it will DD while Dragonite uses Substitute, and from there, good game. Umbreon and Hondoom can't really do anything, Gayrados hates Thunderbolt, while Salamance, Flygon, and CLaydol gets trolled by Ice Beam. Salamance is only bulkier than Dragonite because of Intimidate, but all the foe has to do is switch out, but even without that, it barely is, Dragonite's Special Defense is much better, and Salamance's Atk is only better by 1 point. 110 Salamance > 100 Dragonite, but Dragonite has a better Special movepool.

meteor64
29th April 2012, 11:00 PM
Changes:

Gengar @ Petyra Berry
Nature: Modest
Thunderbolt
Ice Punch
Fire Punch/Psychic
Will-O-Wisp

Set is basically the same, but I am wondering, should I keep Fire Punch to kill Forrestress and Scizor, of Psychic for Machamp and Heracross... I mean, Machamp can beat Gengar EASILY if it has Rock Slide, so I think Psychic could work in this spot. Celebi will get crushed by Fire Punch, Rock Sliding Machamp, including without a Flying type move, will run over it, and maybe get lucky against my team...
Will-O-Wisp goes good with Petyra Berry with its great speed, making it an annoyer and with W-O-W, moves that would KO it has a chance of bringing it down on red instead.
I don't like Giga Drain, considering it will only do good against Swampert, but Will-O-Wisp and Ice Punch/Switching out to Ludicolo fixes that.
Again, I am going to stress the importance of Leftovers. The only pokemon I would use Petaya on are Sceptile and maybe Charizard. Ice/Fire Punch do not even 2HKO Celebi without Petaya boost, and Psychic would crush you anyway unless you have significant defensive investment- moral of the story is that Gengar should have nothing to do with Celebi. I really think you were better off with Destiny Bond.


Quagsire @ Leftovers (Water Absorb)
Nature: Adamant
Yawn
Curse
Earthquake
Ancient Power

I still don't think you understand Quagsire's job. Quagsire is here to stop Water's, and set up on them. Starmie can't even 3HKO Quagsire with Leftovers, and with that Special Attack, what do you think OTHER waters can do to Quagsire? Sure, they can Toxic Quagsire, but Quagsire will still set up on them and run them over.
More likely scenario- they Toxic you, switch out to Skarmory/Forretress/Celebi, they tank anything you throw at them until you die.
Other likely scenario- They switch in Pert/Cune as you Curse up, then when you Yawn they Roar.
Cloyster/Vappy still beat you with STAB and good defenses.

No-one is just going to let their bulky Water sit there and get worn down by you. The strongest bet you have against any Water type is Starmie. I'm serious. Everything else doesn't even care.

Only Vaporeon will have Substitute, but Earthquake takes care of that.
Substitute Vappy is rare. Roar and Toxic are common. Also, Haze variants beat you too.

It wants pokemon to switch out as it sets up and regains health again. Sure, it can't take a Special Attack as good as Swampert, but most things that 2HK0 Swampert does the same to Quagsire because of its HP.
the only things that 2HKO Swampert are things with HP Grass. You die in ONE hit to those.

Quagsire's job is simple, and I love seeing the look on my opponents faces as I take out a Milotic, Lanturn, Vapeon, and Starmie with an UU pokemon they would have never thought they would ever see. Yawn is also under estimated. Yawn will help Quagsire to set up and cause switches, which works pretty efficiently with Leftovers.
This doesn't change the fact that Rest is, on the whole, better. If you want to use a Curser with Yawn, use Snorlax. He actually beats bulky Waters. If you want a Curser with good typing, use Swampert.

I love Quagsire as a pokemon, but I see why you would want me to use Swampert, but hell, I see the best in this little glob.
Unfortunately, the best isn't better than the best of other Pokemon. He doesn't occupy any niche with this set, he's just a bad hybrid of Yawnlax/Cursepert. Water Absorb doesn't change anything.



Ancient Power is just there for coverage, and also when it hits has a chance of raising all of its stats, making it somewhat bulkier, and giving it higher attack.
HP Rock is better. Gambling on 10% is not how you win games. Also, PP is lame.

Please don't tell me I don't understand what you're trying to do. I understand exacty what you're aiming to achive, but you will not achieve it with this set or this Pokemon. I have been playing Adv competitively for nearly 4 years now, I know how it works. If you watch my channel, you'll never see Quagsire appear on it once, for good reason. Heck, even Cursepert isn't common anymore, since Mixpert provides way more utility and versatility. If theres one thing I want you to heed me on, its this.



Heracross @ Salac Berry (Guts)
Nature: Jolly
Swords Dance
Megahorn
Brick Break
Rock Slide

Jolly + Salac Berry set can run over anything that gets in its path, and also will catch Tyrantatar off guard thinking it is a Reversal set. Swords Dance speaks for itself. Jolly + Salac is one of those sets that is "don't diss it 'till you try it", because it looks ridiculous, but works as one of the best sets for him. Smogon may say otherwise, but this set goes hard.
I've been playing SD Jolly Hera with Lefties over Salac and I've gotta say, you'll want lefties. Its basically your main answer to Tyranitar, so you want to stay alive as much as possible. That said, this thing is a complete monster regardless,


Ludicolo @ Leftovers (Rain Dish)
Dive
Seismic Toss
Leech Seed
Rain Dance

This set has great coverage, awesome recoveries, and counters Tyrantatar's Sand Stream. Leech Seed + Rain Dance + Leftovers is to gain health back easily, and still hurt it at the same time. It also weakens Fire and Grass type moves a bit, which makes life easier for this thing. Dive is to let it get 6 recoveries before it gets hit again, and hits hard with a STAB Dive at the end of the turn, powered by Rain Dance. Seismic toss is there to is has coverage and can take out Substitutes that don't have over 100 HP. Clever, yet dangerous set that will catch people off guard. Also, just a FYI, if Ludicolo faints while Rain Dance is still on, bringing out Quagsire is great because moves like Surf that is powered by Rain will only heal it, Thunder doesn't effect it, and Grass and Fire type moves are weakened. This can make a simple UU pokemon seem like a god when you need it. This does not counter Tyranitar at all, Rock Slides hurt the crap out of you, and if it has Hidden Power Bug its even worse. Also, Dive is horrid, you're not going to stall anything. Ice Beam or Surf is the preferable move. Over Seismic Toss, I'd stick Toxic, or Ice Beam/Surf.

Also, I have no idea where you got the idea Grass attacks are weakened in rain from. The only Grass move thats possibly affected is Solarbeam (which is crap and nobody uses)


Snorlax is the same, blah blah blah.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Nature: Quiet
Substitute
Focus Punch
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

SubPunch set that will not just catch people off guard, but counters the SkarBliss almost perfectly. When they send Blissey out, it uses Substitute while Blissey uses Thunder Wave, which means Blissey will either take a FP to the face, or they will send out Skarmory who will take the hit, only to get hit by Thunderbolt the next turn. Good thing about this set is that even though it is a Quiet nature, everything that is slower than it naturally will still be slower, while everything that was faster still will be faster. SubPunch Dragonite will catch teams off guard, and at that, it will catch Tyrantatar without Substitute off-guard, considering it will DD while Dragonite uses Substitute, and from there, good game. Umbreon and Hondoom can't really do anything, Gayrados hates Thunderbolt, while Salamance, Flygon, and CLaydol gets trolled by Ice Beam. Salamance is only bulkier than Dragonite because of Intimidate, but all the foe has to do is switch out, but even without that, it barely is, Dragonite's Special Defense is much better, and Salamance's Atk is only better by 1 point. 110 Salamance > 100 Dragonite, but Dragonite has a better Special movepool.

I definitely think this set fits your team, and solves the Skarmbliss problem. Not to mention this is the set that makes DNite viable and not a crappy Mence. Did I mention this set is amazing? Such a good wallbreaker, sometimes SubPunch Gengar doesn't cut it.

KingWiggins
30th April 2012, 12:25 AM
Again, I am going to stress the importance of Leftovers. The only pokemon I would use Petaya on are Sceptile and maybe Charizard. Ice/Fire Punch do not even 2HKO Celebi without Petaya boost, and Psychic would crush you anyway unless you have significant defensive investment- moral of the story is that Gengar should have nothing to do with Celebi. I really think you were better off with Destiny Bond.

Destony Bond over what?

Also, so does that mean I should go with Psychic?


More likely scenario- they Toxic you, switch out to Skarmory/Forretress/Celebi, they tank anything you throw at them until you die.
Other likely scenario- They switch in Pert/Cune as you Curse up, then when you Yawn they Roar.
Cloyster/Vappy still beat you with STAB and good defenses.

No-one is just going to let their bulky Water sit there and get worn down by you. The strongest bet you have against any Water type is Starmie. I'm serious. Everything else doesn't even care.

Bye Bye Quagsire. :l

So, what pokemon should I pick over Quagsire? I was thinking Metagross, but that would mean I now have a weakness to ground type.. Tyrantatar looks cool, but I hate Sand Stream, but with Ludicolo's Rain Dance, it can get rid of that...
Maybe Claydol would work, seeing it can wall well and Rapid Spin....
Forrestress can Rapid Spin AND throw spikes....
Magmar seems cool, it gets Flamethrower/Fire Blast + Psychic which is good coverage, and with Toxic it can be an ALRIGHT threat. The last slot can have Cross Chop/Barrier, but than I don't have an Earthquaker on my team.
Gyarados makes up for Dragonite not having Dragon Dance and gets Earthquake.
So basically, what pokemon would fit this team?


I've been playing SD Jolly Hera with Lefties over Salac and I've gotta say, you'll want lefties. Its basically your main answer to Tyranitar, so you want to stay alive as much as possible. That said, this thing is a complete monster regardless,

Brick Break destroys Tyrantatar no matter what. Why? x4 weakness to Fighting. You know that though, and much better than me anyways...

Salac Berry + Jolly lets it outrun Jolten and Aerodactyl, and after that, it outruns EVERYTHING. Speed usually doesn't matter, but with Heracross, it almost means everything.


This does not counter Tyranitar at all, Rock Slides hurt the crap out of you, and if it has Hidden Power Bug its even worse. Also, Dive is horrid, you're not going to stall anything. Ice Beam or Surf is the preferable move. Over Seismic Toss, I'd stick Toxic, or Ice Beam/Surf.


It doesn't counter Tyrantatar. You are right. I was referring more to its Sand Stream. That one is on me again.

Dive CAN let it stall with Rain Dance and Leech Seed...well..not much of stall, more like just gain all of its health back. Dive is a bad move, yes, but it gives it more time to charge its HP, and with STAB + Rain Dance, Dive doesn't look like a TOTALLY bad move. Seismic toss is there so it can hurt EVERYTHING. Ice Beam and Grass type moves will get some coverage with Surf (Dive in my case), but won't get complete coverage, which will force it to switch. I don't like Toxic to much, because strong pokemon like Metagross, Steelix, Aggron, Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress don't even feel it. Seismic Toss that deals 100 HP hurts everything, and even Blissey will get killed by it. It will take a long time, including with Softboiled, but it can get there.. maybe. Probably not. But if the game depends on it, a move like Giga Drain and Ice Beam won't do any better.


Also, I have no idea where you got the idea Grass attacks are weakened in rain from. The only Grass move thats possibly affected is Solarbeam (which is crap and nobody uses)

Sorry, I thought Grass moves were weakened because of rain. Nevermind. Nevertheless though, Seismic Toss can deal greater damage most of the time unless I run into Swampert, and even Swampert won't do much.


I definitely think this set fits your team, and solves the Skarmbliss problem. Not to mention this is the set that makes DNite viable and not a crappy Mence. Did I mention this set is amazing? Such a good wallbreaker, sometimes SubPunch Gengar doesn't cut it.

Yay.

meteor64
30th April 2012, 3:28 AM
Destony Bond over what?

Also, so does that mean I should go with Psychic?
Destiny Bond over Fire Punch/Psychic. Psychic Gengar is pretty poor.




Bye Bye Quagsire. :l

So, what pokemon should I pick over Quagsire? I was thinking Metagross, but that would mean I now have a weakness to ground type.. Tyrantatar looks cool, but I hate Sand Stream, but with Ludicolo's Rain Dance, it can get rid of that...
Maybe Claydol would work, seeing it can wall well and Rapid Spin....
Forrestress can Rapid Spin AND throw spikes....
Magmar seems cool, it gets Flamethrower/Fire Blast + Psychic which is good coverage, and with Toxic it can be an ALRIGHT threat. The last slot can have Cross Chop/Barrier, but than I don't have an Earthquaker on my team.
Gyarados makes up for Dragonite not having Dragon Dance and gets Earthquake.
So basically, what pokemon would fit this team?Claydol seems the best choice, you have enough offense, and you're very weak to Spikes. I'd suggest Psychic/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin, and then either Rest, Explosion, or Reflect as your last option. Bold or Relaxed nature, both have their perks (albeit minor). Earthquake isn't overly necessary because you have Heracross for TTar and Claydol doesn't beat Metagross anyway.




Brick Break destroys Tyrantatar no matter what. Why? x4 weakness to Fighting. You know that though, and much better than me anyways...
Nobody is going to keep their Tyranitar in on a Heracross... the whole point is to check it and then Swords Dance on the switch out, which won't work well when you're gradually being worn down by residual damage. Ludicolo doesn't help there either.


Salac Berry + Jolly lets it outrun Jolten and Aerodactyl, and after that, it outruns EVERYTHING. Speed usually doesn't matter, but with Heracross, it almost means everything.
This is ADV, where it's quite possible to sweep with an Adamant Medicham. Jolly Heracross has little worries. You're faster than DDMence and the odd 270 Speed Celebi (I'm assuming you're max Speed) Jolteon doesn't even wanna be near Heracross, and Aerodactyl we can deal with through other ways. The only things you're actually going to care about outspeeding are Dugtrio and a rare Alakazam.




Dive CAN let it stall with Rain Dance and Leech Seed...well..not much of stall, more like just gain all of its health back. Dive is a bad move, yes, but it gives it more time to charge its HP, and with STAB + Rain Dance, Dive doesn't look like a TOTALLY bad move.
People just switch out of the Leech Seed to their Grass type. You are then consequently walled. Leech Seed isn't so much a recovery tool as it is a method to shuffle your opponent (or in the case of CM Celebi, gain a significant advantage).


Seismic toss is there so it can hurt EVERYTHING
Last time I checked, it doesn't hit Gengar/Dusclops. Ice Beam actually does hit everything, especially those pesky Grasses that block your Leech Seed.


Ice Beam and Grass type moves will get some coverage with Surf (Dive in my case), but won't get complete coverage, which will force it to switch.
There isn't a Pokemon in the game that has no weak point in its coverage. Ludicolo actually gets it pretty sweet when you consider it's playing a defensive role.


I don't like Toxic to much, because strong pokemon like Metagross, Steelix, Aggron, Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress don't even feel it.
Ludicolo beats Metagross, Steelix, and Skarmory anyway. Forretress is the only one you could worry about, if Forretress was an actual threat as opposed to set up fodder (you have a perfectly usable Dragonite to switch into and laugh at it, not to mention Claydol if you choose to use it). The others are just not good Pokemon and you probably won't see them used by any serious battler.


Seismic Toss that deals 100 HP hurts everything, and even Blissey will get killed by it. It will take a long time, including with Softboiled, but it can get there.. maybe. Probably not. But if the game depends on it, a move like Giga Drain and Ice Beam won't do any better. ...I'm not sure what I just read. Blissey, with 714 HP, a recovery move with 16 PP, and immense Leftovers recovery, worn down by Seismic Toss? Are you actually serious?

And at any rate, why use attacks when you can just Leech Seed and mooch almost 100 HP a turn from her, thus making you near impervious?


Sorry, I thought Grass moves were weakened because of rain. Nevermind. Nevertheless though, Seismic Toss can deal greater damage most of the time unless I run into Swampert, and even Swampert won't do much.
Hey, you know what likes switching into bulky Ludicolo? Salamence.
Tell me, what would do more damage. Seismic Toss or 4x Super Effective Ice Beam?
You know what else likes switching into Ludicolo without Ice Beam? Every Grass type in the game.
Again, what would hurt more? Decently powered Super Effective Ice Beam? Or mediocre Seismic Toss, used only by the likes of Blissey and Dusclops who have no offense.

Ludicolo is not Blissey. It actually has an offense. Use it. Ice Beam/Toxic/Surf. Pick 2. It will work much better, whichever you pick.

KingWiggins
30th April 2012, 11:41 PM
Destiny Bond over Fire Punch/Psychic. Psychic Gengar is pretty poor.



Claydol seems the best choice, you have enough offense, and you're very weak to Spikes. I'd suggest Psychic/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin, and then either Rest, Explosion, or Reflect as your last option. Bold or Relaxed nature, both have their perks (albeit minor). Earthquake isn't overly necessary because you have Heracross for TTar and Claydol doesn't beat Metagross anyway.




Nobody is going to keep their Tyranitar in on a Heracross... the whole point is to check it and then Swords Dance on the switch out, which won't work well when you're gradually being worn down by residual damage. Ludicolo doesn't help there either.


This is ADV, where it's quite possible to sweep with an Adamant Medicham. Jolly Heracross has little worries. You're faster than DDMence and the odd 270 Speed Celebi (I'm assuming you're max Speed) Jolteon doesn't even wanna be near Heracross, and Aerodactyl we can deal with through other ways. The only things you're actually going to care about outspeeding are Dugtrio and a rare Alakazam.




People just switch out of the Leech Seed to their Grass type. You are then consequently walled. Leech Seed isn't so much a recovery tool as it is a method to shuffle your opponent (or in the case of CM Celebi, gain a significant advantage).


Last time I checked, it doesn't hit Gengar/Dusclops. Ice Beam actually does hit everything, especially those pesky Grasses that block your Leech Seed.


There isn't a Pokemon in the game that has no weak point in its coverage. Ludicolo actually gets it pretty sweet when you consider it's playing a defensive role.


Ludicolo beats Metagross, Steelix, and Skarmory anyway. Forretress is the only one you could worry about, if Forretress was an actual threat as opposed to set up fodder (you have a perfectly usable Dragonite to switch into and laugh at it, not to mention Claydol if you choose to use it). The others are just not good Pokemon and you probably won't see them used by any serious battler.

...I'm not sure what I just read. Blissey, with 714 HP, a recovery move with 16 PP, and immense Leftovers recovery, worn down by Seismic Toss? Are you actually serious?

And at any rate, why use attacks when you can just Leech Seed and mooch almost 100 HP a turn from her, thus making you near impervious?


Hey, you know what likes switching into bulky Ludicolo? Salamence.
Tell me, what would do more damage. Seismic Toss or 4x Super Effective Ice Beam?
You know what else likes switching into Ludicolo without Ice Beam? Every Grass type in the game.
Again, what would hurt more? Decently powered Super Effective Ice Beam? Or mediocre Seismic Toss, used only by the likes of Blissey and Dusclops who have no offense.

Ludicolo is not Blissey. It actually has an offense. Use it. Ice Beam/Toxic/Surf. Pick 2. It will work much better, whichever you pick.

Bleh. I'm starting to change my mind about Ludicolo. Why? I dunno. I'm thinking about using Skarmory instead with Drill Peck, Steel Wing/Taunt, Spikes, and Whirlwind.
Also, I was thinking to change Snorlax with an Adamant Choice Band Slaking (with Brick Break, not Focus Punch), since I don't have a Choice Bander yet.

meteor64
1st May 2012, 11:10 AM
Bleh. I'm starting to change my mind about Ludicolo. Why? I dunno.
I think Ludicolo is more viable than Sceptile was, seeing as its your only way to stop Metagross cruising through your team. I mean, its not the best choice, but it fits better than Sceppy did.

I'm thinking about using Skarmory instead with Drill Peck, Steel Wing/Taunt, Spikes, and Whirlwind.
Drill Peck + Whirlwind is illegal, you have to replace one with either Hidden Power Flying or Roar. I personally find Drill Peck pretty replaceable, the amount of times Skarm will be attacking is minimal. Rest over Taunt, there isn't a whole lot you should be Taunting, and Skarm would be your only answer to Metagross, so keeping it alive is priority. I would put Skarm over Ludicolo though, it does your team much more of a service.

Also, I was thinking to change Snorlax with an Adamant Choice Band Slaking (with Brick Break, not Focus Punch), since I don't have a Choice Bander yet. You don't need a Choice Bander - I'd say about a third of my ADV teams lack one, and they work just fine. Stick with what you got, you need a special wall. Also, Slaking isn't the greatest CBer.

KingWiggins
2nd May 2012, 12:30 AM
Drill Peck + Whirlwind is illegal, you have to replace one with either Hidden Power Flying or Roar. I personally find Drill Peck pretty replaceable, the amount of times Skarm will be attacking is minimal. Rest over Taunt, there isn't a whole lot you should be Taunting, and Skarm would be your only answer to Metagross, so keeping it alive is priority. I would put Skarm over Ludicolo though, it does your team much more of a service.

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Nature: Impish
Drill Peck
Spikes
Roar
Rest

This basically? The only pokemon that don't get hit by roar aren't even used much in the first place except for rare Mr. Mimes and Elecrodes, and those are usually not used because of Alakazam and Electabuzz.


You don't need a Choice Bander - I'd say about a third of my ADV teams lack one, and they work just fine. Stick with what you got, you need a special wall. Also, Slaking isn't the greatest CBer.

Who do you think is a good CBer than..? Mind you, I'm trying to pick a type that won't be super effective to moves my other pokemon are super effective to... The reason I wanted Slaking over Lax was so my team won't get sweeped by a Machamp (in case Skarmory faints).

If Slaking won't work, I can put CB Tauros over it. With Itimidate, it can make easy switch ins, and then hit hard. I can also use Blissey over Claydol/Quagsire for SkarmBliss, but all that means is that I have 2 Fighting weaknesses, and it is almost a 50/50 chance if Tauros loses or not to a Machamp (this is a scenario if Skarmory gets taken out).

meteor64
2nd May 2012, 12:14 PM
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Nature: Impish
Drill Peck
Spikes
Roar
Rest

This basically? The only pokemon that don't get hit by roar aren't even used much in the first place except for rare Mr. Mimes and Elecrodes, and those are usually not used because of Alakazam and Electabuzz.
Mr Mime is used in Baton Pass Chains. If you ever have the misfortune to run into one, you'll be kicking yourself for not having Whirlwind. That's pretty much the only reason to use Whirlwind, but from my experience with them, its worth it. I'm not trying to sway you here, I'm just helping you make informed decisions- Roar is still fine.




Who do you think is a good CBer than..? Mind you, I'm trying to pick a type that won't be super effective to moves my other pokemon are super effective to... The reason I wanted Slaking over Lax was so my team won't get sweeped by a Machamp (in case Skarmory faints). You don't need a CBer, I already said. If Skarm dies you have Claydol, who more than beats Machamp with Psychic. Smogon is right when it says Claydol + Skarm together wall pretty much all physical threats in the game.


If Slaking won't work, I can put CB Tauros over it. With Itimidate, it can make easy switch ins, and then hit hard. I can also use Blissey over Claydol/Quagsire for SkarmBliss, but all that means is that I have 2 Fighting weaknesses, and it is almost a 50/50 chance if Tauros loses or not to a Machamp (this is a scenario if Skarmory gets taken out).While I like Tauros, you dont need it. And you certainly don't need Blissey, you have Snorlax for crying out loud, who does special walling just fine.