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.::Escalator::.
20th May 2012, 6:05 AM
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I decided I wanted to return to Generation 4 because everything about Generation 5 is a complete and utter cluster**** at the time of me writing this. I've always liked Metagross' design, so I figured why not build a team around him?
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Machamp has proven time and time again that he is able to handle any and every lead that Generation 4 has to offer, except maybe other Machamp leads. And Starmie, but **** Starmie.
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Metagross is easily walled and countered by Bulky Grounds, and the best way to counter a Bulky Ground is with a Bulky Water. Vaporeon's ridiculous HP Stat means that not only can it survive a metric-**** ton of full powered attacks but it's ability to Wish and Protect lets it stall opponents and keep my team at peak health.
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I wanted a bulky core of defensive pokemon, and Vaporeon really hates being on the receiving end of Electric attacks from the likes of Jolteon and such. My team would need a Bulky Ground-type. With Hippowdon's Sand Stream being detrimental to Vaporeon's health and Gliscor suffering severely from 4 Moveslot syndrome, I opted for Swampert, whose resistances to Rock and Electric-type moves are appreciated.
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Of course, with two Bulky Waters I really wanted a Grass-resistance, and I needed more Status-inducing moves so Metagross would be able to thrive, and feared my team was too slow to handle some of the threats of this Metagame. While there are many, many Pokemon that fit these criteria, I opted for the most annoying. The pokemon that everyone loves to hate: Togekiss.
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Desperately needing to find a sixth and painfully aware of how vulnerable my almost-defensive core was to Status-inducers, I decided I needed a Status-inducer of my own. Also being paranoid I lacked raw power and type variety, I chose Breloom.


Update 1
My weaknesses to Zapdos, Rotom, Celebi and Jolteon, however, were quite clear when I went to WiFi. That **** would not fly. Still enjoying Togekiss' ability to inflict status and Swampert's ability to get rocks up while being a defensive behemoth but lamenting their mediocrity against the aforementioned Electric-types, I decided to replace them. So long ladies; you served me well, but not well enough.

Instead, I opted for Gliscor because it's Gliscor. It happily absorbs Fighting, Ground and Electric type attacks aimed at my other team members. Since it's not uncommon for Gliscor to run Toxic it helps force switches in Stall teams, allowing me to get down to business to defeat the Huns.

My defensive core now consisting of Vaporeon and Gliscor, I wanted something that could absorb the Grass-type attacks aimed at Vaporeon while resisting all those lovely types that Vaporeon and Gliscor alone can't handle, like Dragonite's Outrage. Celebi was also giving me a hard time, so I looked to the volcanoes for help.

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Update 2
Gliscor's use was really situational; after SR was up I was looking at 3 usable move slots and Taunt was really only useful against things like Gyarados and Suicune, which was only when they didn't blow me away immediately with the STAB Water-moves. I moved to replace Gliscor with Rotom-H as a revenge killer instead, which makes my defensive core Heatran and Vaporeon. The loss of SR is painful sort of, because now I have to find room to add it to Heatran's Moveset.

Bros before hoes.
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Atlas (Machamp) (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 250 HP / 236 Atk / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/d/d4/SteelIC_Big.png Bullet Punch
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/67/FightingIC_Big.png DynamicPunch
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/56/DarkIC_Big.png Payback
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/c/ce/RockIC_Big.png Stone Edge

Nails every opposing lead with either DynamicPunch or Stone Edge. Pay back is there for Azelf but they have a tendency simply to just set-up rocks to avoid activating the double-power effect of Payback. Somewhat susceptible to Trick-leads. He runs 8 Speed EVs to outrun those who only use enough Speed to outrun Blissey, which is 4.

I have been considering replacing Payback but I really need something that can at least dent Rotom, which can easily annihilate the rest of my team.

If you have a bulkier spread I am all ears, I'd like to be able to withstand a Zapdos' Thunderbolt and nail it with Stone Edge.

Why did you name him "Atlas"?
In Greek mythology Atlas was a Titan who held the skies over the earth with his incredible strength. Incredible, TITANIC strength? Sounds like Machamp to me.

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Nereus (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 10 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/6f/IceIC_Big.png Ice Beam
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/3/39/NormalIC_Big.png Protect
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/56/WaterIC_Big.png Surf
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/3/39/NormalIC_Big.png Wish

Can more or less come in on anything, really. It's that bulky. When she comes in on Bulky Grounds I opt for Wish or Ice Beam. I rarely have issues with his performance. I don't run max HP because then Vaporeon reaches 464 HP, which is divisible by 8 and limits the number of times I can switch in if Spikes and/or Stealth Rock is up.

Why did you name him "Nereus"?
This was inspired again by Grecian mythos. Nereus is the oldest Titan, and he fathered the Nereids: the aquatic nymphs.

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Shaman (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 14 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/67/FightingIC_Big.png Focus Punch
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/7/74/GrassIC_Big.png Seed Bomb
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/7/74/GrassIC_Big.png Spore
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/3/39/NormalIC_Big.png Substitute

Breloom annoyed the **** out of me in Generation 5, but I haven't really thought much of it until now. I used to use Leech Seed rather than Seed Bomb but found myself missing the extra coverage.

It helps me a bit with annoying Trick pokemon and turns them into ticking time bombs. All the speed lets me outrun neutral base 100s without investment and Spore them.

On Pokemon Online it becomes much easier to handle after a single Spore because of Sleep Clause but it's hard to stop on Wifi.

Why did you name him "Shaman"?
It's an English word this time. People go to shamans because other their crazy magic, but most of them are just crazy and can induce such craziness with psilocybin mushrooms. I was also considering Dionysus.

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Astraeus (Metagross) @ Life Orb
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/60/PsychicIC_Big.png Agility
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/8f/GroundIC_Big.png Earthquake
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/d/d4/SteelIC_Big.png Meteor Mash
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/60/PsychicIC_Big.png Zen Headbutt

The rest of my team doesn't really take to too kindly to Bulky Waters, except Breloom really. They don't harm us, they just wall Metagross unless I run ThunderPunch. Gyarados can be especially troublesome. I usually use Life Orb but paranoia about Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave has lead me to think that I should be using a Lum Berry.

Speed EVs let me outrun Flygon and Rotom after an Agility. Opted for Zen Headbutt for a more versatile STAB.

Why did you name it "Astraeus"?
Astraeus is the Greek deity of astronomy. Meteor Mash? Sounds pretty astronomical to me, and my opponents see stars after I use it. Haters gonna hate.

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Zeus (Rotom-W) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 108 HP / 148 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/56/WaterIC_Big.png Hydro Pump
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/7/73/GhostIC_Big.png Shadow Ball
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/4/4a/ElectricIC_Big.png Thunderbolt
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/6/60/PsychicIC_Big.png Trick

At the behest of IronBullet93 (of Smogon), I replaced Gliscor with a revenge killer Rotom. His explanation is better than anything I could write:


You really need a revenge-killer to deal with stuff like DD Dragonite, Gyarados and Agility Empoleon as you can't rely on Vappy to check too many Pokemon. Furthermore, Taunt + DD Gyara straight up 6-0s this team. Scarf Rotom-W is an excellent choice, as it gives you a valuable Fighting immunity, another check to Lucario, and most importantly a solid check to Gyarados. It also helps out a lot against Zapdos, resisting Thunderbolt and being able to trick a useless Scarf to defensive versions. It is much harder to decide what to replace, but I would go for Machamp as it is the most replaceable Pokemon on the team. The set is Thunderbolt | Hydro Pump | Trick | Shadow Ball. Wash Rotom is preferred to deal solid damage to Tyranitar and make it think twice before switching in. Too many Sp Atk EVs aren't really required to get the required KOs, so the ideal EVs are 108 HP | 148 Sp Atk | 252 Speed with a Timid nature. The extra bulk allows Rotom to switch into Gyarados' Waterfall or Starmies Surf more easily.

Why did you name it "Zeus"?
If a shape-shifting Thunder and Water-based psuedo-legend doesn't scream "Zeus" to you, you have problems.

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Hephaestus (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/8f/GroundIC_Big.png Earth Power
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/2/26/FireIC_Big.png Lava Plume
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/3/39/NormalIC_Big.png Substitute
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/3/3d/PoisonIC_Big.png Toxic / Stealth Rock

Heatran is my Anti-Electric pokemon. With the given EVs he has maximum special bulk and laughs at Jolteon, Zapdos and Rotom who give Metagross a hard time while walling them all day erryday. The Speed EVs let him outrun Rotom-A without speed investment and cripple them with Toxic. Substitute gives me something to hide behind to avoid retaliation in the form of Pain Split and/or Thunder Wave. He generally doles out all that Special Defending goodness that my team otherwise lacks while completing the defensive core.

Not sure if I should bother with SR or not.

Why did you name him "Hephaestus"?
The Olympian metalworker, forger of the Gods, Hephaestus worked with steel and heat all day. To those of you who think Heatran is ugly, then yeah, great. That works too.


Eleionomae (Swampert) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Stealth Rock


Roar gives me a way to avoid those troublesome set-up sweepers. Swampert with this spread usually run Relaxed with Ice Beam but with Relaxed you aren't outrunning anything at all anyway so you might as well just use Avalanche off a higher Attack stat, am I right?

Why did you name her "Eleionomae"?
Eleionomae are what the Greeks called nymphs that inhabited wetlands and swamps.


Iris (Togekiss) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 70 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Wave
- Roost / Wish

Without Thunder Wave my team is woefully low on Status. Fire Blast gives me an extra oomph in raw power and has a 60% chance of burning things I choose not to paralyze. It's not like there's anything Aura Sphere hits that Fire Blast doesn't aside from Tyranitar and Heatran.

Her EVs are fairly standard. She has maximum HP, enough Defense to make Scizor's Bullet Punch a 3HKO and the rest of her EVs have been invested in Special Defense.

Why did you name her "Iris"?
Iris was a messenger of the gods. I thought it fit because Togekiss is a Flying-type. Plus, she was a goddess of rainbows, and Togekiss only appears in times of joy and sunshine and puppies and such according to its Pokedex entries.

Harpy (Gliscor) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Gliscor seriously suffers from 4 Moveslot syndrome, but c'est la vie. I use Taunt to replace Swampert's Roar in that it protects me from set-up sweepers while also allowing me to scout the opponent's next move, which is fairly critical to ensure Metagross' safe entry.

Why did you name her "Harpy"?
Don't you ever get tired of asking? Harpies are savage little ladies that just give people a hard time, man. But then again, what ladies don't? Am I right, guys?





Atlas (Machamp) (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Atk / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- DynamicPunch
- Payback
- Stone Edge

Nereus (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Surf
- Wish

Shaman (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Focus Punch
- Spore
- Stone Edge
- Substitute

Astraeus (Metagross) @ Life Orb
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Agility
- Earthquake
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt

Zeus (Rotom-W) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 108 HP / 148 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Hephaetus (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SDef / 100 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume
- Substitute
- Toxic

Ezek
20th May 2012, 9:38 PM
Hmm the only pokemon i have alot of experience is togekiss. The thing with thunderwave is so many togekisses used competively have thunderwave so people expect it. Alot of times when you try to use thunderwave a ground type or a pokemon with an ability that makes electric attacks not work will be switched in to negate thunderwave or even benifit from things like volt absorb. Body slam's 60% chance for paralyze may not seem as unattractive but it can paralyze ground types and volt absorb and stuff like that. The only think that wont be paralyzed is limber pokemon. This is just a suggestion from personnel experience.

Also softboiled is an option to consider for healing.

.::Escalator::.
20th May 2012, 10:46 PM
There are only four relevant Ground-types: Mamoswine, Hippowdon, Swampert and Flygon and they all get shut down easily by Vaporeon. They don't really scare me.

Also the only Pokemon with Limber all suck. Persian and Ditto are laughably useless and Hitmonlee is Hitmonlee.

If I were concerned about any ability hindering Togekiss, it'd be Dragonite's Inner Focus or Synchronize from some obscure Psychic type.

I also forgot that Togekiss learned Softboiled. I'll try it instead of Roost.

Ezek
20th May 2012, 11:52 PM
Well i dont mean going against ground types directly. My point is say you are going to use on a pokemon for example blissey. So many people know togekisses go for para flinch that they may switch in a pokemon that isn't effected by thunderwave. Sorta like switching a pokemon with flash fire when the opponent predicts a will-o-wisp. People have done this to me multiple times but maybe it won't happen to you. I just use body slam for a safety net if they switch in a ground or volt absorb so i may paralyze the pokemon that switches in. Just you get an iffy 60% chance.

.::Escalator::.
21st May 2012, 5:05 AM
I would never keep Togekiss in on Blissey. Blissey fears nothing from Togekiss and has Natural Cure.

I understand what you meant, I just mean the situation doesn't really scare me enough to make changes to accommodate it. I thank you for your concern and I'd appreciate it if you could point out any other glaring flaws you might see.

Gamefreak
22nd May 2012, 6:11 PM
Actually, Fire Blast only would have a 20% of burning things. Aura Sphere is more useful because it would beat Tyranitar who would otherwise force you out. Or beat a weakened Heatran.

Run 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spd on your Metagross. Your EV spread is outdated because Scarf Heatran is not only uncommon, Scarf Flygon or Scarf Rotom-w are on half the teams you will fight. Having the ability to outrun Adamant Scarf Flygon and Timid Scarf Rotom-w after an Agility is very useful. As a bonus, you will also outrun max speed Adamant Tyranitar before an Agility before it can EQ you.

If you want, you could also make your Metagross Jolly. Since you would only outrun 40% of Flygon's after an Agility last time I checked. (its better than nothing.)

Team is alright. I haven't looked for weaknesses or real synergy issues. Just some nitpicks for now.

.::Escalator::.
23rd May 2012, 12:16 AM
Fire Blast isn't there for Burning; it's there because it does more damage to relevant Steel-types, especially those that only take neutral damage from Aura Sphere (i.e: Scizor, the Steel/Psychic-types and Lucario). It's also stronger than her STAB in general.

Now that you mention it, I am a bit T-Tar weak and DDos Weak. I think Swampert and Togekiss are the most replaceable members, so I've been looking into cutting my defensive core down to two, consisting of Heatran and Vaporeon, which leaves the sixth as a wild card. I also wanted to replace Thunderpunch with Zen Headbutt so he could do something against Zapdos and Rotom but that doesn't do anything for my DDos weakness.

I'm not feeling Jolly Metagross since he's unable to raise his attack outside of lucky Meteor Mashes.

I will however change the EV spread.

iMillenium
29th May 2012, 8:22 PM
You have 2 fight and 2 water type pokemon. Maybe you could use those extra slots for a tank/wall like skarmory+blissey...

.::Escalator::.
29th May 2012, 9:35 PM
That advice is not at all valid, and my tanks are right there, in plain sight...
Also I see no reason to change pokemon simply because they share the same types because it hasn't been a problem at all.
Also, I only have one Water-type, but I am considering replacing it with a Physically Defensive Celebi because I hate fighting Breloom.

iMillenium
29th May 2012, 10:57 PM
It's just that it'll give you almost full coverage... Your team is good... Skizor is a good lead as it could easily eliminate 2-3 pokemon with the right moves and evs...

BigMoney
30th May 2012, 3:33 AM
Ignore iMillenium. His posts make no sense to the point of trolling. Having multiple fighting and water types is not a problem because they are not weak to commonly used attacks. You only have one water type anyways. Claims that skarmory and blissey provide more coverage than what you already have and scizor as your lead with no real explanations seals the deal.

A lead azelf using stealth rock does not prevent the doubled power effect of payback. You are not too susceptible to trick leads since you have all attacking moves on Machamp.

.::Escalator::.
31st May 2012, 7:21 AM
It's just that it'll give you almost full coverage... Your team is good... Skizor is a good lead as it could easily eliminate 2-3 pokemon with the right moves and evs...

So? I've swept teams with Vaporeon because they had the wrong moves and EVs.

Also, even is Scizor takes out one of my pokemon, Heatran, Breloom and Vaporeon beat it one-on-one, Metagross damages it severely if it's already set up, so in most cases I'll be able to handle it, and any time I can't then it's obvious the battle is already lost.

Also no one uses Scizor as a lead.

I worry I'm susceptible to Trick because Machamp receives no benefit since it's very slow, and having the freedom to switch between Rock and Fighting moves makes it most susceptible.