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Jo-Jo
29th June 2005, 6:51 PM
A few people on the forums have been saying for a while that it would be a good idea to have an official shipping debate thread, to stop the issue from cropping up in other topics and dragging them OT. Kiori kindly gave us the go-ahead recently, so I thought I might as well start this up. This is a thread to debate whether Advanceshipping (Ash/May) or Contestshipping (May/Drew) is more likely to happen in the show. Have at it, ye shippers. ;)

(Rules are here (http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=71248).)

CyberCubed
29th June 2005, 7:03 PM
So uh, who wants to to make the first argument? :D

PokeProphet
29th June 2005, 7:11 PM
Ah, good, about time one of these showed up. Allow me to supply the first topic.

Grand Festival; Grand Funeral for the Advanceshippers, or Grand Exaggeration on behalf of the Contestshippers?

Let's get ready to rumbeeeeeeeeeeeel!!!

Encyclopika
29th June 2005, 7:13 PM
If anyone was gonna start one of these I knew it would be you, Jo-Jo, afterall, you are the best debater in the Contestship thread. And I am here to help. ^_-
Well, I believe Contestshipping will work out...more than Advanceshipping afterall. I have a couple reasons to back it up, of coarse.
First, the reasons why, IMO, Advanceshipping will not work. First thing, Ash is not that kind of person to get wrapped in that...he's too dense to figure the stuff out (I'm not bashing him - just saying that's not his character...True Blue Swablu anyone?)...on a personal level, I'd rather him go with Misty. The relationship between them, I believe, is that of "siblings". Ash teaches May how to be a trainer and basic skills like that. And she listens and takes notes. XD He cheers on for her because that's what friends do. May does the same to return the favor.
Now to back up the people who think against Contestshipping...first thing, they have much more in common than May does with Ash. They are both coordinators and both strive for the same thing...they understand each other to a certain degree. Drew has reasons for acting the way he does. He makes fun of May, I believe, because he's immature about the whole thing and doesn't know how to deal with it. He makes fun of her to toughen her up. If he wasn't there, we could count on May being like she was in "Crusin' for a Losin'" where she was so high with herself. She'd always lose if she did that. I think Drew wants to see May succeed. Also, it is extremely evident that Drew teaches May coordinating skills as Ash teaches May Pokemon basics. Drew is constantly teaching May what it is to be a successful coordinator...even though his tone may be annoying when he says it. If May would listen to what he was saying, rather than his tone, she would see (you'd all see) that he isn't being mean. For the things he does say that rightfully should tick May off, they are there so that she trains and wants to prove his false sayings wrong. Anyway, our biggest hint are the roses Drew hands out to May which make the ship so kawaii...^^ Well, that's all I can squeeze out right now...XP

EDIT: hehehe, I've been writing a long time...two people replied as i was replying...I'll answer the topic at another time...^^ Just want to give the basic evidence supporting Contestshipping at the current time. XP

Sweet May
29th June 2005, 7:22 PM
i agree with Encyclopika..............
Ash and May are just friends......... plus i think Ash would like someone who is a trainer just like he is......... and well like Encyclopika said.......... dere r a lot of contestshipping hints than advanceshipping........... like the roses Drew gives her, the critizing Drew tells May (although it's just advice)....... and he seemes to watch May a lot..........

Encyclopika
29th June 2005, 7:24 PM
Like he did in the Grand festival...? He kept on getting jealous and spying on her...kinda possessive don't ya think?

Jo-Jo
29th June 2005, 8:04 PM
Oooh, the Grand Festival. :D Good starting point. OK, here are the hints in the GF episodes, as commonly believed by Contestshippers:

(*WARNING - SPOILERS*)

- Drew gives May another rose. This brings his total up to four, but who's counting? ;)

- When Harley catches sight of the rose and says... something about it (a translation from someone in the know would be greatly appreciated), May blushes and cries, "Harley-san!"

- Drew reeeally isn't happy with Harley hanging all over May. There are numerous moments in the first two episodes where he watches the two of them together, and a couple where he confronts Harley over the training 'tips' he's giving her.

- Drew eventually finds out Harley's plan while they're watching May's appeal. Harley shows his true colours to May, but instead of gloating over her, Drew shouts at her and stalks off. This kind of behaviour isn't normal for him; usually whenever May messes up, he's only too happy to rub it in her face, yet this time, it bothers him. IMO, the logical explanation is that he's jealous.

- When May and Drew say their goodbyes at the end of the three-parter, May stares after Drew, blushing, as he walks away. She barely seems to acknowledge Ash, Brock, Max and Caroline, who have all come over and are standing right next to her.

- Caroline shoots up and starts teasing May about how "amazing" her friend Drew was. May starts to blush even more, and yells out a protest(?) of some kind.


Right, those are the basics. Anyone want to take a shot?

(eta: whoops, loads of people posted while I was writing this. ^^;; This was in answer to PokeProphet, just to be clear.)

cold_katanagirl
29th June 2005, 8:17 PM
Yay CKG is back from her long delay... Thing.

Anyway, I'm betting Contestshipping is more likely to happen. Doesn't really matter to me, since I like both. I prefer Advanceshipping a heck of a lot more, but that's another story I don't feel like getting into unless someone asks. I doubt either is actually going to "happen" though.

But I think Ash and May have much more in common than May and Drew. May and Drew have their similarities and all, but Ash and May have much more in common than May and Drew. In my opinion.

I've never actually seen anyone say "Advanceshipping is canon" before. Ever. Not even as a joke. So the most that's going to go on in here is people saying they like Advanceshipping more than Contestshipping. And Cybercubed VS Jo-Jo action...

Contestshipping is kind of screwed if Drew isn't in the next region, and we know how these writers build up on stuff and then drop it completely. Since Contestshipping isn't really all that important...

Unless Drew decides to follow May in the next region, or just so happens to be in the same region May is. This isn't like Gary, because Ash followed Gary to Johto. We don't know where the heck Drew went (or do we?). But he'll probably pop up.

lara lynx
29th June 2005, 8:50 PM
Contestshipping all the way.
Ash belongs with Misty, and Ash treats May as a friend more than anything else.
And besides, how can you argue with the roses? We haven't ever seen Ash doing anything like that, have we? And Drews jelousy?
For the rest I'll leave it to Encyclopika and JoJo, seeing as they're better at this than I am.

anti legendary
29th June 2005, 8:59 PM
i personally think that advanceshipping will not happen. i think ash and may see each other as then good friends and in a way team mates, but not terribly romantic. i can picture the friendship between the two of them extending for many years/seasons, but i dont think the spark is lit. plus, mays 10 and ash is like 14 or 15 i would guess. thats a bit creepy IMO. for drew, i think the writers have written some puppy love in for him and may. hes less teasing to her now and even a bit protective, and she seems to be somewhat fascinated by him. attracted maybe? anyway, my personal opinion is that these shippings are just the writers having fun (usually), so i wont really get too fierce either way

CyberCubed
29th June 2005, 9:13 PM
Why are there people bringing up Misty in this thread?

For the record, this is NOT a Pokeshipping/ContestShippng Vs. Advanceshipping thread.

I believe Jo-Jo will agree with me, that this thread was made to debate the current ships, NOT Pokeshipping.

The last thing we need is a bunch of people coming in here saying Ash/May won't work because Ash belongs with Misty. This thread has NOTHING to do with Pokeshipping. It's meant to strictly debate the current ships in Pokemon Advance, not Pokeshipping.

If you guys want to debate Poke Vs. Advance shipping, make your own thread.

This is Ash/May Vs. May/Drew only, so please, don't bring Misty up in this thread at all. This is not what this debate is about.


i can picture the friendship between the two of them extending for many years/seasons, but i dont think the spark is lit. plus, mays 10 and ash is like 14 or 15 i would guess. thats a bit creepy IMO. for

Bwah, how is it creepy when Ash is only about 2-3 years older than May? A 2-3 year age difference is nothing , and it's not creepy at all.

For the record, how do we know that Drew is 10? He seems to be about Ash's age himself, as he sure as hell doesn't look like a beginner coordinator to me. He actually seems like he has some experience under his belt, so I'm betting he is actually older than May.

Otherwise, this age debate is pointless. We don't even know how old Ash is to begin with, so he may be closer to May's age than you realize.

Sushi
29th June 2005, 9:28 PM
What shall I say.. Yes, I do think that ContestShipping is more likely to happen. Why? Not just because of the hints or roses or whatever. Because it's the typical type of shipping that Anime producers love so much. There are exceptions, okay. But not that many, seriously :D

Whoops. That almost sounds like I hate ContestShipping. Well, I don't. But I'm sure I'd like it a hell of a lot more if the same structure hasn't been used so many other times.

As for AdvanceShipping, well, I like it. Don't have a clue why. [/brainless]
But since it seems like we're only going to debate which one of those has more erm... 'evidence', I guess I have to shut up... for today XD

But just a side note..
Lollers. What I find funny is that some ContestShippers or simple Anti-AshwithanyothergirlthanMistyShippings state that 'Ash belongs with Misty' and make it the *only* reason why AdvanceShipping can't happen. My comment for this is... uh, no comment.

cold_katanagirl
29th June 2005, 9:43 PM
I agree with Sushi...

Another obvious point for Contestshipping is because it's the basic couple arrangement. The blushing. The arguing. The rivaling. The jealousy (that I noticed people seem to be debating about more...), etc.

I'm not saying Advanceshipping is original. Because it is kind of one of those "Damsel in Distress/You're My Hero!" type things. At least Advanceshipping had SOME originality though, because they didn't know each other their entire lives.

But Advanceshipping had some potential though. Did May seem a bit flirty towards Ash before Max came in? She did to me.

But I'm turning this into a discussion so.... Yeah.

CyberCubed
29th June 2005, 9:47 PM
As long as May stays in Ash's group, the possibility for Advanceshipping still exists.

As I said before, Drew is a character who could be written out of the show once May beats him at a Grand Festival. Drew is not a main character, but a reocurring one. If the writers chose to, they can axe him out when May beats him.

There are people here who believe that Drew's future is secure in the anime, and that he'll be here forever. I obviously, don't believe that. They will of course keep Drew until May is strong enough to beat him, but once May beats Drew, then what would happen? Will they follow the Ash/Gary route and have Drew leave from the series?

Drew is a relatively minor character (after all, he appeared in what, 10 or so episodes out of the 130 episodes in Hoenn? That's pretty minor to me, in fact, it looks like pretty bad odds to me), so I don't believe he'll be around in the show forever. And of course if Drew leaves the show forever and May is still on it, then Contestshipping dies with Drew's departure.

Red-Kun
29th June 2005, 10:09 PM
I agree with Cybercubed, well i'm not bashing but maybe Drew haves the crush on May but May doesn't feel the same, i'm not saying that Ash haves a crush on May, well who knows about May, maybe she haves the crush, but not too much like Misty's feelings.

Well Contestshipping is like Pokeshipping (Drew haves the crush, Misty haves the crush) and i'm an Advancedshipper but Pokeshipper too (i'm not agnaist contestshipping)

And about the age stuff: Who cares? Misty is older than Ash and it doesn't matter, May is younger than Ash but for three or four years and who cares? (maybe Poke/Contest Shippers).

Revolutionary Destiny
29th June 2005, 11:00 PM
Argument for Advanceshipping/against Contestshipping:

I don't know why but for some reason, Contestshipping strikes me as 'unstable'. Maybe it's because it depends on a recurring character (Drew). Maybe it has a chance of happening, but if Drew doesn't come back, neither does Contestshipping. And since Ash and company are going to the Battle Frontier, there is a chance that Drew won't appear there since he seems like more of a coordinator than a battler.

Ash and May do have a lot in common (contrary to anti-shippers' popular belief, it isn't a bad thing). Since they're traveling together, it's more likely that more things are going to happen between them. To me, Ash cares more for May than any other girl he knows. Then of course, there's "The Bicker The Better" which is one of those two-sided episodes when it comes to shipping (easily shippy or easily anti-shippy).

But even though i'm a shipper, I'm hoping for a 'no shipping ending'.

Encyclopika
29th June 2005, 11:37 PM
- Drew gives May another rose. This brings his total up to four, but who's counting? ;)
I'm counting ;3
PokemonStarlight - What do you mean a "'no shipping ending'" ? You mean like the series ends with nothing? Well that's boring...we could get a little action.
Anyway, yes I agree Contestshipping has a big chance of not going on for the fact that the person who started it (Drew) may or may not come back. But...there are so many reasons for Drew to come back. Before I get into that, I must say that I don't agree with people who say he's a minor character. He's not a main character, but he's not minor. He obviously is important, for he introduces a rival for May, giving him a bigger slot on the character places. His dreams and future are, according to the Serebii guide to the third GF epi, known in exact ways. The audience knows what exactly he will do achieve what he wants - to beat Robert, to be the best coordinator. His reoccurence shows us his steady growth as a coordinator...he has to be important in some way in order to have the writers develope him to such extent over being May's rival.
Well, there goes one reason I think he'll come back and continue Contestshipping, although it has nothing to do with it. He seems to have dreams that aren't met yet, therefore, like May, they need to be tied. He is also May's biggest rival...he can't completely leave until she has beaten him. And even then, the show will have died enough to be dead by then or Drew's characteristics will pop in to make him reappear. Drew doesn't seem to be the type, like Gary, to pick up and leave and do different things after a defeat. He seems to be the one to come back and reclaim the title. ;315;

cold_katanagirl
30th June 2005, 12:05 AM
I wouldn't be surprised at all if we ended up with a no shipping ending.

If a couple like Inuyasha and Kagome, something they've been building up since the show first came on, and they have some type of moment in every episode only hold hands and cuddle every once in awhile (not counting the second movie) I can't see Pokemon getting all that far. And if the romance of Inuyasha is actually part of the plot, while the romance in pokemon really doesn't affect anything... I seriously doubt anyone is going to get together. The most we're getting is some blushing and a kiss on the cheek, but that's a stretch.

I really don't know much about younger couples. I know a couple but...

But one is one sided with a twenty eight year old girl who everyone thinks is twelve/seventeenish, one has two people who are 17/16 but act like a couple of toddlers, and the last... I don't know what the heck they're doing, I just know it's canon. I don't think they kiss or anything though. Bad impressions.

Oh, and the manga ships. But the manga seems way more mature than the anime anyway. Red x Yellow isn't really like anything from the anime. o.0;

Drew seems like a character who randomly drops in and out. If May beats him, then what's Drew going to do then? Stalk May? Drew isn't just there as a "romantic subplot", he's there as a rival. And IMO, rival should come first.

If May beats Drew, I don't know what he's going to do. May can't keep losing to him, she's going to beat him at some point. I never expected Gary to randomly give up and become a professor, but look what happened to him.

But Drew doesn't seem like someone who'll give up after losing, because if that were the case he would have gave up awhile ago.

Revolutionary Destiny
30th June 2005, 12:05 AM
I'm counting ;3
PokemonStarlight - What do you mean a "'no shipping ending'" ? You mean like the series ends with nothing? Well that's boring...we could get a little action.

That's exactly what I mean. I know I may sound like a hypocrite for saying this, but Pokemon isn't all about love and romance. It's a nice (and sometimes funny) sub-plot, but it's not all about that. And plus, it would shut the n00bish/militant shippers up (the worst kind of shippers out there).

Anyways, we all know how the writers are. They seem to be building on something and then completely drop it or forget about it *coughtheGSballcough*. And they do like their little twists and turns. Like May said in "All Torkoal, No Play", it's the end result that matters.

cold_katanagirl
30th June 2005, 12:09 AM
I don't even understand why the GS ball was there. It just seemed to create more fillers and build up on something exciting, but then nothing happened with it. They didn't really need it to get to Johto, they could have used Gary beating the crap out of Ash to drive him there. =/

If the writers take a DBZ route by building up on something and then dropping it, Contestshipping is screwed. -_-

Jo-Jo
30th June 2005, 12:12 AM
(*spoilers* again, for the Hoenn League this time)

Yeah, this debate isn't supposed to include Pokeshipping, so it'd probably be best if we all leave Misty out of it. Unless someone has a relevant point to make that includes her... and no, "Ash belongs with Misty" doesn't cut it. ;)

Re. the age thing - I have to say, pairing up a fourteen-year-old and a ten-year-old does seem rather creepy to me. Personally I wouldn't find a four-year age gap acceptable until the younger party was at least eighteen, but I have been accused of being a prude. ;) Then again, it's never been proved that the characters do age, so perhaps we should consider the point moot. I very much doubt that Drew is significantly older than May, though. For one thing, he's exactly the same height as her; for another, wouldn't he have already encountered Robert in a previous Grand Festival if he'd been training for a few years? I don't think he can be older than eleven... twelve at the absolute most.


As long as May stays in Ash's group, the possibility for Advanceshipping still exists.
True, but so does the possibility for Shoppingshipping, Petalburgshipping, Bouldershipping and whatever Ash/Max is called, with the current set-up. Just because a ship is technically possible doesn't mean it's likely.

As for Drew, I see no indication that he's about to be written out any time soon. Yes, there will presumably come a point where May beats him. However, that may not happen for a good long while yet. The writers have shown, by having Ash come in eighth again, that they are capable of withholding a win from a character up until the point where we're all yelling at our TV sets for them to get on with it. Not to mention that, unlike in the Ash-Gary rivalry, May and Drew have characters like Robert and Harley around, providing extra material to pad out the subplot for a while yet. It seems to me that the writers could conceivably keep this going for another two regions, or even three.


And since Ash and company are going to the Battle Frontier, there is a chance that Drew won't appear there since he seems like more of a coordinator than a battler.
The Battle Frontier arc is only... what, twenty episodes long? I don't think it'll matter if Drew doesn't make an appearance until D/P.

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 12:45 AM
Then again, it's never been proven that the characters do age, so perhaps we should consider the point moot. I very much doubt that Drew is significantly older than May, though. For one thing, he's exactly the same height as her;

That point is moot, since Ash is exactly the same size as May too, and we know after watching 5 seasons of the show, he has to be at least a little older than May.

Drew seems to be a bit older than her, but of course we won't know for sure.


True, but so does the possibility for Shoppingshipping, Petalburgshipping, Bouldershipping and whatever Ash/Max is called, with the current set-up. Just because a ship is technically possible doesn't mean it's likely.

Realistically, none of those ships have a chance of happening in the show. Sorry Bouldershippers, but judging by the writers, they would NEVER pair up Ash with Brock.

If we're talking about fanfiction, ANY pairing is fair game. As people can pair whatever character with whoever they want, it's their choice.

But as for the show, people have to use common sense and think realistically.

Between pairings of just the 4 characters in the AG group, the only one that's plausible in happening is Ash/May. They wouldn't show incest in the show, so May/Max is out, and May with Brock is just creepy since he's so much older than her.

Likewise Ash isn't gay, so it's not plausible for him to be paired with Brock or Max either. Therefore, the possibility of Advanceshipping still exists between Ash/May, and not any of the other ships between the characters. Ash and May are a boy and girl who are roughly the same age give or take, only these type of pairings are plausible in happening in a Pokemon series. Just like Contestshipping is plausible for that matter because they're boy and girl of roughly the same age.


As for Drew, I see no indication that he's about to be written out any time soon.

That's because we have a whole 'nother region to go. Come the end of the next region, I don't think you could sing the same tune, as next region will be the "make or break" region of the series for various reasons.

Jo-Jo
30th June 2005, 1:01 AM
Actually, there are few scenes in which Ash is taller than May by a couple of inches. It's not very consistent, but it's something.


Between pairings of just the 4 characters in the AG group, the only one that's plausible in happening is Ash/May. They wouldn't show incest in the show, so May/Max is out, and May with Brock is just creepy since he's so much older than her.

Likewise Ash isn't gay, so it's not plausible for him to be paired with Brock or Max either. Therefore, the possibility of Advanceshipping still exists between Ash/May, and not any of the other ships between the characters. Ash and May are a boy and girl who are roughly the same age give or take, only these type of pairings are plausible in happening in a Pokemon series. Just like Contestshipping is plausible for that matter because they're boy and girl of roughly the same age.
But that's a terribly superficial argument, isn't it? OK, you're right in that it is probably safe to assume the final pairings will be boy/girl and involve characters of a similar age. But that doesn't automatically make Advanceshipping probable - all it means is that it meets the bare minimum standard. If the writers want to pair up Ash and May, they'll have to do a LOT more than merely establish that one is male and the other female. I admit that of the many reasons I believe in Contestshipping and not Palletshipping, a very, very minor one is that it's het. But if that were the only reason, no way would I think Contestshipping was canon.

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 1:47 AM
Actually, there are few scenes in which Ash is taller than May by a couple of inches. It's not very consistent, but it's something.

You seem to be stealing my material from that other thread, I was the one who said Ash was slightly taller than her in some episodes depending on the animators. I think it was in the Misty thread in the spoilers section, but probably a couple pages back. :p


But that's a terribly superficial argument, isn't it? OK, you're right in that it is probably safe to assume the final pairings will be boy/girl and involve characters of a similar age. But that doesn't automatically make Advanceshipping probable - all it means is that it meets the bare minimum standard.

Basing on the fact that it's a pairing between boy and girl, I said both Advance and Contestshipping are on equal ground. It's the hints that come *after* this "minimum standard" that make us believe one will happen over the other.


If the writers want to pair up Ash and May, they'll have to do a LOT more than merely establish that one is male and the other female. I admit that of the many reasons I believe in Contestshipping and not Palletshipping, a very, very minor one is that it's het. But if that were the only reason, no way would I think Contestshipping was canon.

Of course. But people seem to shrug off Contestshipping hints because what Drew and May are saying to each other is roughly the same type of teasing Gary and Ash did to each other.

Sure, there's the inclusion of metrosexuality and the rose, but the other stuff is the basic rival Gary/Drew saying "I know I'm better than you, let's see if you can keep up" and the underdog Ash/May goes "Oh yeah?! Well you just wait till next time, I'll show you!"

People see more between Drew/May than with Gary/Ash because this time it's between a boy/girl, and not boy/boy.

If yo uwant some Kanto episodes with Gary again, and compare Ash/Gary's interaction with May/Drew's interaction in Hoenn, you can see that they're not all that different. The writers slightly make Drew easier on May because having a boy pick on a boy is much more standard than having a boy pick on a girl. I mean, there's only so far they can have a boy put a girl down before you think that a guy is a pansy. That's why the writers DIDN"T do that with Drew, because they had to have some balance so people wouldn't think that Drew was a total jerk.

Jo-Jo
30th June 2005, 2:08 AM
You seem to be stealing my material from that other thread, I was the one who said Ash was slightly taller than her in some episodes depending on the animators. I think it was in the Misty thread in the spoilers section, but probably a couple pages back. :p
Nuh-uh, I noticed that myself a little while ago. :p After the Wynaut ep, I believe. (When did it come up in the Misty thread, again?)


Basing on the fact that it's a pairing between boy and girl, I said both Advance and Contestshipping are on equal ground. It's the hints that come *after* this "minimum standard" that make us believe one will happen over the other.
Agreed.


People see more between Drew/May than with Gary/Ash because this time it's between a boy/girl, and not boy/boy.
Oh? Somehow I don't think that's the reason. I think a few eyebrows would have been raised if any of these exchanges had happened between Ash and Gary:

---

Gary: *hands Ash rose* A good performance, Ash.
Ash: *faint blush* This, for me? Thanks, Gary!
Gary: It's not for you, it's for your Pikachu! It seems that the trainer still has a bit more practising to do.
Ash: Well, I guess we can't all be as good as you!

---

Gary: Nice work. Botched up combination, huh? No wonder. You're very indecisive.
Ash: Gary?
Gary: Isn't that sweet? You even remember my name after all this time. Hi, Ash. *throws him rose. Ash scowls.* Don't get your hopes up, Ash. The only reason I even came over was to see Pikachu again.
Ash: Then now you can go!

---

Ash: Let me guess. This rose is for Pikachu again, right?
Gary: Yeah... something like that.

---

:D Dunno about you, but I'm sure feeling the slashy love.


The writers slightly make Drew easier on May because having a boy pick on a boy is much more standard than having a boy pick on a girl. I mean, there's only so far they can have a boy put a girl down before you think that a guy is a pansy. That's why the writers DIDN"T do that with Drew, because they had to have some balance so people wouldn't think that Drew was a total jerk.
I think that Drew was just as nasty as Gary - for maybe half an episode. They've gradually toned him down ever since then. IMO that's because he and May have grown closer over time, and isn't symptomatic of anything shippy.

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 2:42 AM
I noticed they toned him down starting from the Wynaut episode. But before that, he was the same as he always was. As for the rose, it's an extention of his metrosexuality.

They're trying to make Drew/May friends in the same way that Gary/Ash became friends.

Think about it, when Ash came to talk to Gary under the moonlight when Gary lost the Johto league, they both talked kindly to each other and talked about how their journey started. If Ash was switched with May, and Gary was switched with Drew, yet they still had that same dialouge as that episode, would you have interpeted it as shippy? Simply because now it was between boy/girl instead of boy/boy?

Jo-Jo
30th June 2005, 2:49 AM
I noticed they toned him down starting from the Wynaut episode. But before that, he was the same as he always was.
Well, he and May have their first 'friendly' exchange at the end of Now That's Flower Power, so I'd say that's the moment where the toning down began. In fact, aside from their very first conversation on the private beach, I don't think Drew's ever been quite as mean as Gary. E.g. later that episode, where he comes back and challenges May to a battle:

Drew: Hmm. That last attack had some real art to it.
May: Thank you. Hey, those berries belong to Torchic! Give them back!
Drew: All right.
May: Huh?
Drew: But you have to battle with me first.
May: Forget it!
Drew: Why not? Afraid you're going to embarrass yourself again?
May: Fine! I accept!
Drew: Good. Smart move.

Only one of Drew's lines (the "afraid you're going to embarrass yourself again?" one) in that scene is insulting. He even compliments her twice. Not that it really matters either way in a shipping discussion, it's just something I find interesting.


If Ash was switched with May, and Gary was switched with Drew, yet they still had that same dialouge in that episode, would you have interpeted it as shippy? Simply because now it was between boy/girl instead of boy/boy?
No.

anti legendary
30th June 2005, 3:01 AM
even if contestshipping doesnt happen, i still cant see advanceshipping. i just dont see it ever happening, no offense to anyone else. as for what i said bout the age, that doesnt mean i mind age differences per say. my boyfriends two years older then me. its just that ten is very young to be getting into a romantic relationship with a teenager IMO. its a little young for real relationships in the first place. feel free to get mad at me for saying that, but i think at 10 kids arent ready for serious commitment and stuff

Shego
30th June 2005, 3:18 AM
Contestshipping might be nice.

XDLord
30th June 2005, 3:23 AM
May is probably 12ish. May never wanted to be a serious Pokemon trainer, she just wanted to travel around. Ash, on the other hand, wanted to be a serious trainer right from the start. Which means Ash is probably 14, and May is 13ish. Besides, I know a Boyfriend/Girlfriend pair who are 11(boy) and 11(Girl). How do I know. Lets just say they send notes(probably lovenotes or stuff like that).

anti legendary
30th June 2005, 3:47 AM
i think at the beginning (but i could be wrong) she stated she was ten

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 4:07 AM
May is 10. Why do so many people ignore the line May says IN THE VERY FIRST EPISODE SHE APPEARS IN?!

"I'm May, I'm 10 years old..." is the first line she ever says in the entire series.

WindyNight
30th June 2005, 4:09 AM
She is 10 at the beginner of the show...
But she might be a little older now since she traveled with Ash for long..

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 4:11 AM
It would be nice if the writers directly stated how old Ash is now, and how long a duration they've been in Hoenn.

May could be 11 by this time, we don't know for sure though.

Encyclopika
30th June 2005, 5:19 PM
We don't know anything about their ages...I think the writers couldn't care less about it...but, I do remember in a thread discussion one time that Ash stated in the episode where he, Misty, and Brock go their separate ways at the end of Johto...he says "It was exactly one year ago...blah blah something about her bike." Correct me (don't bash me) if i'm wrong...but i'm pretty sure he said a year...?
Whatever the age difference...I think it's safe to say that BOTH Drew and Ash have at least a year on May...backed up with evidence on their services...teaching her. I'm pretty sure beginners wouldn't want to go out and start teaching other beginners about subjects they haven't dwelled in long enough, IMO - Ash and Drew (no matter what Drew does) don't seem like the kind of people who would be n00bs(people who think they know what they're talking about when IRL, they don't).

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 5:51 PM
That's why I believe that Drew has been to at least 1 Grand Festival before he met May, since he's so familiar with everything and won his ribbons rather easily and quickly.

Sure, maybe at that Grand Festival, Robert didn't compete, so that would explain why Drew never met him before.

anti legendary
30th June 2005, 7:49 PM
who knows. its quite likely may wont be in a relationship with anyone at all since shes probably only around 11 at this point. i think this thread comes down to whether or not she has a crush on these two characters and if the feeling is returned, not who shes gonna marry or anythign. remember, the dubbers would definitley shy away from a preteen relationship since theyre really uptight

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 7:51 PM
Looks like the writers of the show are making May an Ash clone, by giving May the same Pokemon Ash had in the past.

SPOILERS for new episode:


They must really be trying to shove down our throats that Ash and May are soul mates, especially with the fact that May is getting all the same Pokemon Ash had. First Bulbasaur, not Squirtle. Jeez what's next? May getting a Pichu?

cold_katanagirl
30th June 2005, 7:53 PM
*SPOILERS*


Yes, WTF is up with the same pokemon? Are these two going to have another damn episode together? Squirtle helping Squirtle? Is May going to catch a Pichu?

... Jeez. This same pokemon thing is getting on my nerves already. May is such a MARKETING TOOL. -_-

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 7:57 PM
I heard that May even leaves her Bulbasaur at Oaks, so it can be with Ash's Bulbasaur again.

Vineshipping anyone? And we know how Advanceshipping follows that, as even Brock said in "Bye Bye Butterfree" that "If two trainer's Pokemon fall in love, then the trainers will fall in love too!"

May's team is looking an awfully a lot like Ash's Kanto team.

Bulbasaur = Bulbasaur
Squirtle = Squirtle
Munchlax = Snorlax
Beautifly = Butterfree

They're trying to make May a "second Ash" by giving her all the same Pokemon Ash had in the past. It's almost as if the writers are trying to say "HEY! Ash and May are so similar! Let's give them the same Pokemon too! They're soulmates!"

Anyway, +2 for Advanceshipping by the events of the newest Japanese episode.

anti legendary
30th June 2005, 8:15 PM
i think its annoying actuallly how the teams are replicating in recent eps. its like the writers are grooming may to become ash lately or something. if they make her lose her own identity as a character and become an ash clone, i wont find it shippy, ill find it extremely irritating

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 8:19 PM
Well she still has her Contests to seperate the two.

Unless the writers suddenly have May change roles and have her go to GYMS too...but I doubt that.

Sushi
30th June 2005, 8:21 PM
i think its annoying actuallly how the teams are replicating in recent eps. its like the writers are grooming may to become ash lately or something. if they make her lose her own identity as a character and become an ash clone, i wont find it shippy, ill find it extremely irritating

Agreed. It's terrible to see what they're doing to AdvanceShipping. That way it won't get more popular. It'll be the opposite: even more people will start to hate it. Why don't the writers get through their thick skulls that the fans HATE clones? <_<;

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 8:34 PM
Maybe we'll see Squirtleshipping now if Ash's Squirtle ever returns. -_-

At least Vineshipping looks like it's becoming canon, with the two Bulbasaur reunited at Oaks. I'm actually surprised May left it there, as Oak isn't her Professor.

She could have left Bulbasaur at her father's GYM like her other Pokemon, yet she recognized the fact that her Bulbasaur liked Ash's, so she left it at Oaks instead so they could be reunited.

I mean hey, that has to count for something.

Jo-Jo
30th June 2005, 9:42 PM
*SPOILERS for new episode in Japan*

OK, two questions. Firstly: how does May leaving Bulbasaur at Oak's prove Vineshipping? Especially since I believe she also left Skitty and Beautifly there, too? Surely it would make sense for her to leave her Pokemon with the nearest Professor if she's only going to pick them up again twenty episodes later to go on to the next region? And secondly: HOW is this in any way an Advanceshipping hint? If two Pokemon of identical species falling in love = their trainers falling in love, then Misty and Daisy must be married by now.

cold_katanagirl
30th June 2005, 9:51 PM
*SPOILERS*

Firstly: how does May leaving Bulbasaur at Oak's prove Vineshipping? Especially since I believe she also left Skitty and Beautifly there, too?
I thought May left Beautifly and Skitty in Petalburg. =/

I'm getting tired of this Ash - clone ********. Get some friggin originality.

I guess it'd be interesting to see how Ash and May would react if their Bulbsaur started liking each other. I guess.

CyberCubed
30th June 2005, 10:16 PM
*SPOILERS for new episode in Japan*

OK, two questions. Firstly: how does May leaving Bulbasaur at Oak's prove Vineshipping? Especially since I believe she also left Skitty and Beautifly there, too?

Nope, she leaves Beautifly and Skitty at home in Petalburg. She brought Bulbasaur with her and deliberately left it at Oaks so it can be with Ash's Bulbasaur. This is an obvious Vineshipping hint, as the writers could have easily had May drop off her Bulbasaur at the Petalburg GYM with Norman and Caroline.

But INSTEAD, May keeps her Bulbasaur and drops it off at Oaks instead. Ash's Bulbasaur and May's Bulbasaur being reunited for awhile is definitely a hint upon the writers part. Skitty and Beautifly get dropped off at her house, but Bulbasaur gets to go to Oaks to be left with Ash's Bulbasaur? There's no denying that something intentionally was decided upon here. It will be interesting to see how Ash and May react if two of their Pokemon fall in love.


And secondly: HOW is this in any way an Advanceshipping hint? If two Pokemon of identical species falling in love = their trainers falling in love, then Misty and Daisy must be married by now.

Brock from "Bye Bye Butterfree",

"If two trainers Pokemon fall in love, then there's a good chance that their trainers will fall in love too!"

Granted that was a long time ago, but Advanceshipping has always been directly related to Vineshipping, as the two Bulbasaurs directly represent Ash and May's personalities.

Jo-Jo
30th June 2005, 11:31 PM
Ummm, no. The two Bulbasaurs being friends and wanting to spend time together does not constitute a shippy hint unless you're very obsessed with the pairing. lol. To use the example we were discussing a couple of posts back, would you consider it a hint if they were both boys?


"If two trainers Pokemon fall in love, then there's a good chance that their trainers will fall in love too!"
1. Brock is desperate. 2. Misty/Daisy, anyone?

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 12:00 AM
Ummm, no. The two Bulbasaurs being friends and wanting to spend time together does not constitute a shippy hint unless you're very obsessed with the pairing. lol. To use the example we were discussing a couple of posts back, would you consider it a hint if they were both boys?

No, since the interaction between Bulbasaur is different than say....Bulbasaur and Squirtle.

It was clearly obvious that Bulba and Squirtle were good buddies in Kanto and such, but the way Bulbasaur befriends Bulbasaur is a hell of a lot different than what Squirtle and Bulba did together.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next time Ash and May return to Pallet that they find an egg. :D

If this Bulbasaur dropping was just for friendship, May would have left her Beautifly and Skitty at Oaks too, so they can be friends with all of Ash's old Pokes.

But since it was only her Bulbasaur she left, it puts a whole different spin on this. Plus the fact that she left Bulbasaur there primarily to see Ash's Bulbasaur again (and not to say, see all of Ash's other pokemon) makes this look like an intentional pairing on the writers part.

You can turn a blind eye to this and deny it if you want, but it's there.

anti legendary
1st July 2005, 12:01 AM
when brock said that it was purley a pickup line. he was using it to try and get a pretty girl to talk to him. in all reality, i dont think bulbasaurs liking each ohter has much to do with people

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 12:03 AM
Vineshipping obviously may have nothing to do with Ash/May. It depends on how Ash and May react if they truly find out their pokemon are in love.

Remember, the two Bulbasaur will be there for the entire time that Ash, May, Max, and Brock travel to the Frontier. This is for 20+ something episodes. That much time alone together, and I wonder how the two Bulba will be when they get back to Pallet.

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 12:37 AM
I'm not turning a blind eye. I'm just skeptical about any pairing which seems to operate on the basis that friendship = love. I've certainly never seen a scrap of evidence that the Bulbas are attracted to each other.

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 1:11 AM
So in other words, you only see attraction in this show if the two people are bickering back and forth at the top of their lungs? If anything, all this fighting shouldn't lead to love either, for one thing.

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 1:52 AM
No, I only see attraction in the show if the two people give signs of being attracted to each other. There have been plenty of infatuations over the course of the show, and we've all seen what normally happens: blushing under romantic circumstances, jealousy over the other's crushes, awkwardness at physical contact, that kind of thing. Since it's been established which actions the writers tend to use as attraction indicators, and enjoying someone's company and wanting to spend time with them don't exactly qualify or else Ash would have to marry the entire cast, I don't see why you think that the Bulbasaurs are in love.

As for the bickering, it's hardly conclusive evidence on its own (you don't see me arguing that May and Max are in love), but it makes a nice 'icing on the cake' deal. And as far as precedent goes, it hardly hurts my case. ;)

XDLord
1st July 2005, 3:22 AM
Vineshipping has not much meaning, but it is interesting, as in what will be Ash and May's reaction. Who knows, Ash takes along Squirtle and Bulbasaur. Anyways, if they are going to shipping in the show, the most likely right now is Advanceshipping. Ash and May travel together, and obviously that makes it pretty likely off the bat. Add that to the fact that May is throwing some hints every once in a while and if the writers are going to have shipping, Ash will probably become a LOT less dense, and plus, we know that May isn't clueless, but she isn't giving hints to Drew, and also, Ash/May have a lot more time together to develop shippage. Drew is just around in contest eppies, and what, there were like 10 out of 140 or so eppies in the Hoenn league.

Revolutionary Destiny
1st July 2005, 6:11 AM
I'm just going to post a quote:


All love that has not friendship for its base, is like a mansion built upon the sand---Ella Wheeler Wilcox

If May and Drew were to ever be in love, they would need to be friends first. And Ash and May already have that part down.

Sweet May
1st July 2005, 6:42 AM
it doesn't really need 2 b tat way.......... ppl could just like each other without being friends........... and May and Drew's rivalry is a sign of love

Transducer
1st July 2005, 6:49 AM
it doesn't really need 2 b tat way.......... ppl could just like each other without being friends........... and May and Drew's rivalry is a sign of love

How the heck is their rivalry a sign of love? *millions of question marks pop out* Sorry but that sounds quite odd.

Here's my two cents: Personally I think she's clueless about Drew's feelings just as Ash is clueless about May's feelings. Get what Im saying? \=

Hey wait! Ash and May are both clueless! Thats something in common! *goes crazy*

Can't believe I posted here..... >_<

hyliansage
1st July 2005, 8:16 AM
Didn't Ash's Bulbasaur have a crush on that Gloom in that one episode? And didn't Ash's Totodile have a crush on that Azumarril... somewhere... in Johto...? Ash's Butterfree fell in love with that pink Butterfree... And none of those crushes resemble the relationship that the two Bulbas have now...

Sure, if Drew is written off the show, Contestshipping hints won't be as common (It'd be like what Pokeshipping is now, I guess), but we also have to remember that May isn't guaranteed a spot on the main cast either... She may be popular right now, but give her five seasons or more. THEN we'll talk. XD

I think we can agree that the relationship between Ash's Bulbasaur and May's Bulbasaur is the same as the relationship between Ash and May. It just depends on HOW we interpret it. For example, I see Ash and May as having a teacher-student relationship, just as I see the two Bulbas having a teacher-student relationship. So, in the end, it still depends on personal opinion. I'm still an old-school believer that in a simple show like Pokemon, crushes are defined by blushing, but hey, what do I know? XD

Off-topic but... I'm getting SICK of May getting the same exact Pokemon as Ash. ARGH. She might as well go catch a Pidgey while she's at it. And a Caterpie. And a Charmander. She needs the whole group. Then she can get the next-gen Pikachu. Haha. Clone/original love is kinda funny... XD

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 1:03 PM
Yay, lots of replies! ^_^


Anyways, if they are going to shipping in the show, the most likely right now is Advanceshipping. Ash and May travel together, and obviously that makes it pretty likely off the bat.
Why? Even if you take the view that travelling together only 'counts' in shipping if the two characters are around the same age, non-related and opposite sexes, then how do you explain the platonic Jessie/James relationship? Or, to use an earlier example, why weren't Ash and Brock having regular fights over Misty?


Add that to the fact that May is throwing some hints every once in a while
Such as?


and if the writers are going to have shipping, Ash will probably become a LOT less dense
Only if one of the ships involves him. And Ash becoming less dense would not automatically make him fall for May. Just because half the fandom is drooling over her doesn't mean the characters have to. ;)


and plus, we know that May isn't clueless, but she isn't giving hints to Drew
- She blushes a little bit when he gives her the first rose.
- She blushes a LOT when Harley says something about her and Drew in the first of the GF episodes.
- The infamous staring/blushing/teased by Caroline scene at the end of the GF.


and also, Ash/May have a lot more time together to develop shippage.
Only if you assume in advance that there will be shippage. Ash/Brock, Brock/May, Ash/Max and May/Max spend just as much time together.


Drew is just around in contest eppies, and what, there were like 10 out of 140 or so eppies in the Hoenn league.
Drew was in twelve episodes, and he had a major role in most of those. He's appeared more frequently in AG than any other character, I think, apart from the seven regulars and the Jennys/Joys. Besides which, romance is hardly a priority in Pokemon. Two characters don't need to spend loads of time together for the writers to set up a shippy subplot between them.


I'm just going to post a quote:

All love that has not friendship for its base, is like a mansion built upon the sand---Ella Wheeler WilcoxIf May and Drew were to ever be in love, they would need to be friends first. And Ash and May already have that part down.
Firstly, May and Drew are friends. The Wynaut episode alone proves that. Not to mention that May has been happy to see Drew in every episode he's appeared in from Disaster Of Disguise onwards. Secondly, in fiction (and real life, a lot of the time), it isn't at all necessary to be friends first. Romeo and Juliet, for example, and any other 'love at first sight' couple - or love/hate pairs where they start out being attracted to each other against their wills.


Here's my two cents: Personally I think she's clueless about Drew's feelings just as Ash is clueless about May's feelings. Get what Im saying? \=
Oh, I think she gets Drew's feelings. ;) He's practically spelled them out for her, after all.


Sure, if Drew is written off the show, Contestshipping hints won't be as common (It'd be like what Pokeshipping is now, I guess), but we also have to remember that May isn't guaranteed a spot on the main cast either... She may be popular right now, but give her five seasons or more. THEN we'll talk. XD
XD Too true! I bet that back in Kanto, if you'd said that Misty would be drained of all her personality, saddled with a soul-sucking energy-leech and booted off the show in a couple of regions' time, nobody would believe you. No character apart from Ash is guaranteed a permanent spot.

Transducer
1st July 2005, 1:23 PM
Oh, I think she gets Drew's feelings. ;) He's practically spelled them out for her, after all.



Really? Well from what I read on SPP's guides, I saw different. It was only compliments about Drew near the end of the final GF eppie and May blushing out of embarassment :p

EDIT: Oh I went a bit off there.. well Drew giving roses to May IMO means nothing kinda. ANY girl would blush if they were to receive a rose from a guy.. And I just think that she is clueless towards Drew's feelings. If you say she isn't, then whatever floats your boat...

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 1:28 PM
Yet strangely, May doesn't get at all embarrassed when the tag battle couple say that she and Ash are an item. :p And if you think that Caroline wasn't teasing May about liking Drew (which she clearly was - just look at her face!), then why would May need to get embarrassed at all? Can't she even hear a compliment about Drew without turning five shades of scarlet? If anything, that's an even stronger hint.

As for the roses, I think May got that Drew liked her after his "yeah... something like that" line. In fact, she probably already knew - the way she said "I suppose this rose is for Beautifly, too, huh?" suggests that she never really believed that excuse. ;)

Transducer
1st July 2005, 1:39 PM
Well the thing is some animation teams are obsessed with blushing! Look at the team that did A Fan with Plan ep. Everyone blushed there....

Besides, the Bicker the Better, well Ash and May were kinda PO'ed at the start of the ep. And when they met up with Oscar And Andy who accused them as couples, those two didn't blush out of embarassment. So that part is true. But the thing is, it did have some sort of an effect there as both of them faced away. Their faces, to me, looked like they were thinking about something when they first heard the word "love". Call me crazy (go ahead) but I know there's something major deep here.. There's still a few pieces missing for the Advanceshipping puzzle that we need to find and if we do, then everything will be clear...

Ugh... I suck at debates. Im probably not a good challenge for you huh? -_-

Wes
1st July 2005, 3:01 PM
I'll give this a shot. (Even though I'm really bad in them). Sure Drew might have an infatuation with May, and even May might have an infatuation with him as well. But it really all comes down to the stronger bond, in terms of freindship and well I think that Ash has a stronger bond with her. Sure some people may argue that longer isn't exactly better but in Ash and May's case it seems to help them better.

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 3:34 PM
Well the thing is some animation teams are obsessed with blushing! Look at the team that did A Fan with Plan ep. Everyone blushed there....
It's not the blushing in and of itself that's shippy; it's the blushing under romantic circumstances. May blushes when other characters tease her about liking Drew; this is a romantic situation, ergo I interpret shippiness. Savannah blushes because she thinks that she isn't as good at co-ordinating as May; this isn't a romantic situation, therefore no shippiness. (However, the mums who were blushing over how "cute" Drew was probably had a few less-than-pure thoughts going through their minds. ;))


Besides, the Bicker the Better, well Ash and May were kinda PO'ed at the start of the ep. And when they met up with Oscar And Andy who accused them as couples, those two didn't blush out of embarassment. So that part is true. But the thing is, it did have some sort of an effect there as both of them faced away.
Getting annoyed and facing away is hardly the reaction of someone who's just had their secret crush exposed for all the world. Especially when compared to the aforemention May/Drew GF thing.


Their faces, to me, looked like they were thinking about something when they first heard the word "love". Call me crazy (go ahead) but I know there's something major deep here..
I've seen that episode, and I didn't see any sign that Ash and May were thinking about anything. Quite the reverse, they were very dismissive towards the tag battle couple. "Us, in love? That's a laugh", "Har-de-har-har" and all that. You'd think that there would have been some awkwardness between them later on if they had started to consider the possibility of them going out.


There's still a few pieces missing for the Advanceshipping puzzle that we need to find and if we do, then everything will be clear...
:D I think you may be giving the writers too much credit. They don't tend to go for intricate puzzles when laying down clues for... well, anything. Romance is no exception.


Ugh... I suck at debates. Im probably not a good challenge for you huh? -_-
Aw, don't sell yourself short. :)


I'll give this a shot. (Even though I'm really bad in them). Sure Drew might have an infatuation with May, and even May might have an infatuation with him as well. But it really all comes down to the stronger bond, in terms of freindship and well I think that Ash has a stronger bond with her.
If we decided the final couples based on who's got the strongest bond, then we'd have to declare Ash and Pikachu soulmates. Besides, IMO May has stronger bonds with Max and her Pokemon than she does with Ash.

Sweet May
1st July 2005, 3:54 PM
who noes........ wut i say that all the roses and blushing..... and jealously, are big hints of love for them.......... May and Ash are just friends.......... who have to help each other when they're in trouble........... plus dere is no jealously or blushin or anythin....... just friendship.......

anti legendary
1st July 2005, 4:30 PM
really, may seems much more infatuated with drew. she seems fascinated by him in a way. with ash she seems friendly, but nothing more. i dont think she shows any interest in ash

Wes
1st July 2005, 4:34 PM
I'm just saying that some relationships start out more as a friendly thing, and when Drew first met May they weren't exactly on good terms.

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 4:35 PM
Yet strangely, May doesn't get at all embarrassed when the tag battle couple say that she and Ash are an item.

Why do you keep saying that? May and Ash NERVOUSLY denied that they were a couple.

They didn't calmly deny it, they were outright DEFENSIVE about it. Not to mention saying it in usion.

So they didn't blush, big deal. Why you put so much "evidence" on blushing is beyond me. Their interactions made it clear that they were very nervous and embarrassed about being a couple. Listen to their voices and watch their body language.

Jo-jo, you can do better than this.

Shigeru-kun
1st July 2005, 7:22 PM
Getting annoyed and facing away is hardly the reaction of someone who's just had their secret crush exposed for all the world.
I'm sorry, but what? If what you say is true, Kasumi and Satoshi should have blushed in the Kanto episode where Joi-san accuses their arguing as hidden love. I mean, Kasumi had already developed a crush on the boy before that point, you think she would have at least blushed and she still didn't. o_o;

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 7:55 PM
Why do you keep saying that? May and Ash NERVOUSLY denied that they were a couple.
No they didn't. They scowled, turned their backs on each other and made a sarcastic reply. No nervousness whatsoever.


They didn't calmly deny it, they were outright DEFENSIVE about it. Not to mention saying it in usion.
Compared to the Ash/Misty and May/Drew denials, they were VERY calm about it. In fact, all they said was "Us, in love? Very funny."/"Har-de-har-har", "hmmph", and "we're not a couple!"/"And we're not happy, either!" That's nothing when you hold it up against Ash's "You must be crazy! ... It's not true!" in Poke-ball Peril.


So they didn't blush, big deal. Why you put so much "evidence" on blushing is beyond me.
Because it's a hugely useful indicator. But in this case, I wasn't referring to just blushing, but overall embarrassment. Ash and May don't get embarrassed, they don't overreact, they don't protest too much or get angry or do any of the things that they ought to have done, if they had feelings for each other. Since May does get embarrassed when she's accused of liking Drew forty episodes later, I can only conclude that she likes Drew and not Ash. And since Ash reacts in an identical manner to May, the next logical step is that he doesn't like her, either.


I'm sorry, but what? If what you say is true, Kasumi and Satoshi should have blushed in the Kanto episode where Joi-san accuses their arguing as hidden love. I mean, Kasumi had already developed a crush on the boy before that point, you think she would have at least blushed and she still didn't. o_o;
Joy didn't say they were in love. She said that they fought to cover up the fact that they cared about each other. At that stage in the anime, Ash and Misty weren't yet at the point where they were prepared to admit to being friends. Especially Misty, who was still going on about her bike every other episode.

Sweet May
1st July 2005, 8:31 PM
i dunno if itz just me but i think May kinda reacts wen she hears Drew's name..........

wobbanut
1st July 2005, 8:46 PM
I had to reply on this thread. :)

I am definitely a supporter of May/Drew, as seen on my new sig, but the problem is I'm not opposed to Ash/May either. I never did like Ash/Misty, and there were no other Ash ships I really supported, so I'm a little surprised that I've got a slight leaning towards it.

I have my rationale for liking both ships:

-- Contestshipping- May and Drew egging each other on is fun to watch. I also like May's reactions to the roses he's given her, and Drew's reactions to her win when he was watching from the audience. Plus, the contestshipping thread keeps me interested in this ship. :)

-- Advanceshipping- I think back to May's eagerness at tagging along when they first met. Plus, they became sweetly chummy at the end of "The Bicker the Better", and throughout "Grass Hysteria". I may not participate on the Advanceshipping thread, but I've still liked those few moments.

Of course, this wouldn't be the first time I liked two different ships for one person. I had the same problem with Xena (Joxer/Gabrielle, Joxer/Meg). I'll see how I feel about both contestshipping and advanceshipping a year from now, because I've just gotten into both ships. Time can always change my mind. For now, I'll be content to settle for either one or both.

Encyclopika
1st July 2005, 8:48 PM
really, may seems much more infatuated with drew. she seems fascinated by him in a way. with ash she seems friendly, but nothing more. i dont think she shows any interest in ash
Exactly! Agree with you here...because what does May have to be facsinated with Ash about? He battles...and from my POV, I think May still finds battling not all that glamorous(sp?). For Drew, on the other hand, they do the same thing (not saying she isn't fascinated with any coordinator who has years on her in the profession) but she has more to be impressed about.


i dunno if itz just me but i think May kinda reacts wen she hears Drew's name..........
Or that time i n the Winstrate episode when she saw the Roselia and started thinking of him...she did much better in the battle then she usually does in the battle...getting back to what he's trying to achieve with her - making her better at what she wants to do. He cares. X3

For the Bulbasaur discussion I sorta missed...if that's what you think...Bulbasaur and Bulbasaur thing...then wouldn't the compatible Masquerain and Beautifly be an indicator on Pokemon love for Contestshipping? I mean, out of all the Pokemon in Hoenn...why a BUG, that is compitable with the same pokemon Drew uses to make excuses for his roses? Quite a lot of hints for both parties IMO. And with Bulbasaur having a crush on the other Bulbasaur...so she left it at Oak's...because they're friends and maybe an older Bulbaaur with much more experience can help out the other when becoming great.

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 8:56 PM
Exactly! Agree with you here...because what does May have to be facsinated with Ash about? He battles...and from my POV, I think May still finds battling not all that glamorous(sp?).

Uh, what does May not finding Ash's battling interesting have to do with anything? She could like him for his personality, it has nothing to do with the fact that she's a coordinator and he's not.



For the Bulbasaur discussion I sorta missed...if that's what you think...Bulbasaur and Bulbasaur thing...then wouldn't the compatible Masquerain and Beautifly be an indicator on Pokemon love for Contestshipping?

NO! Why do people keep bringing up the Masquerain/Beautifly comparison? Those two bug Pokemon have barely any personality to speak of, and they barely even interacted with each other.

They made an ENITRE episode for the two Bulbasaurs to meet and interact. And on top of that, May leaves her Bulbasaur with Ash's while they go travel around Kanto. Thus the two Bulbasaur will be together for 20+ something episodes.

They NEVER made any sort of connetion friendship or otherwise between Beautifly and Masquerain. With Bulbasaur and Bulbasaur they first made an entire episode for them to meet and befriend each other, and now the writers are looking to take that one step further by leaving the two Bulbasaur together for a possible relationship.


I mean, out of all the Pokemon in Hoenn...why a BUG, that is compitable with the same pokemon Drew uses to make excuses for his roses?

No, the only reason Drew has Masquerain in that debut episode was because Suskrit was already introduced. And as you know, the mother had a Lairon. Aron, Aggron, and Suskrit were already debuted in episodes before that one. This episode was to nicely fill in the gaps with debuts of Pokemon that haven't appeared yet.

Same reason Drew had a Flygon in the GF. Flygon never had a real debut in an episode and only had screentime in a movie, thus the writers wanted to finally debut it so they gave it to Drew. The fact that they both have bug/flying types means nothing, since the writers didn't even make Beautifly/Masquerain interact with each other for more than a battle.


Quite a lot of hints for both parties IMO. And with Bulbasaur having a crush on the other Bulbasaur...so she left it at Oak's...because they're friends and maybe an older Bulbaaur with much more experience can help out the other when becoming great.

That's a line a shipper in denial would say in hopes that nothing shippy would happen to an opposing ship. It's like Advanceshippers saying that Drew's roses mean nothing (to some extent, I agree that the roses are shippy).

Although we haven't seen the Bulba's love confirmed yet, the writers are definitely heading in that direction. We'll see if they follow up with Vineshipping or not next time Ash/May return to Pallet.

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 9:06 PM
(SPOILERS again)

We aren't in denial about the Bulbasaurs. Really. Is it so difficult to believe that we just don't see anything shippy about two Pokemon of identical species being friends? I've seen the pictures of the Oak's Lab reunion episode, and the writers made a point of having the similar Pokemon get chummy with each other, e.g. Munchlax and Snorlax waving to each other, or the two nutcases Glalie and Totodile dancing around. I'm not saying that Vineshipping is impossible or anything, just that it hasn't been hinted at thus far. The most you can say is that the writers have set up a situation in which the two can fall in love later on.

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 9:27 PM
And the set-up has been obvious.

If it was just meant for friendship, then May would have had her Bulba greet Ash's for this one episode, and then take it with her. Similar to how her other Pokes made friends with Ash's, like Munchlax/Snorlax, etc.

But the fact that she left her Bulbasaur there is basically foreshadowing. It's almost too obvious.

You have to realize, May has nothing to do with Oak. Oak is not her Professor, Birch is. Thus May leaving one of her Pokemon with a Professor who she didn't even start with...is kind of...awkward don't you think?

The fact that this looks shippy is also the fact that she didn't leave her Skitty and Beautifly here either, but she left those Pokemon with her family instead.

It was only Bulbasaur who was left here, to a Professor who isn't even her Professor, and to be with a Pokemon that it seems fascinated with in that previous Hoenn episode.

May sure as hell didn't leave her Bulbasaur there so it can be friends with Ash's other Pokemon like Cyndaquil or Totodile.

She left it there for Bulbasaur, and Bulbasaur alone.

As I said, we have to wait till Ash/May return to Pallet to see if the writers follow through with Vineshipping, but it's looking like a very likely scenario.

Jo-Jo
1st July 2005, 9:46 PM
If it was just meant for friendship, then May would have had her Bulba greet Ash's for this one episode, and then take it with her.
And if the writers didn't want her to take her Bulbasaur with her...? OK, I guess they could have left it at the Petalburg gym instead of Oak's, but this way they get to have a nice display of continuity by referencing the Bulbas' friendship from a previous ep - kinda like how they gave Misty an Azurill to reference her wish for a Marill in For Crying Out Loud. It also leaves May with the option of picking up Bulbasaur at the end of the BF arc, instead of having to go all the way back to Petalburg to get it. And it's possible that they don't want the gang to revisit Hoenn - we don't know where the D/P region is in relation to Kanto, after all. In which case, they have no choice but to leave Bulbasaur with Oak on the off-chance that they'll want to bring it back later.

I'm not saying that the Vineshipping scenario is impossible. Just that declaring it a certainty, as you seem to be doing, strikes me as exeedingly premature.

And I still don't see how it proves Ash/May, since they probably aren't even going to see their Bulbasaurs for at least twenty episodes. :D

CyberCubed
1st July 2005, 11:01 PM
And if the writers didn't want her to take her Bulbasaur with her...? OK, I guess they could have left it at the Petalburg gym instead of Oak's,

Stop right there. Exactly.


but this way they get to have a nice display of continuity by referencing the Bulbas friendship from a previous ep - kinda like how they gave Misty an Azurill to reference her wish for a Marill in For Crying Out Loud.

I don't really consider the Azurill to be in reference to that crybaby Marill Misty met in a Johto filler over 5 years ago.

Could be, but I don't think so. It was just a way for Misty to get a new baby Pokemon, and since Azurill is a Hoenn one, and Tracey had a Marill, the writers just put two and two together and got her an Azurill.

I severely doubt this has any connection to that Marill from Johto.


It also leaves May with the option of picking up Bulbasaur at the end of the BF arc, instead of having to go all the way back to Petalburg to get it.

May will most likely visit Petalburg again anyway. Ash ALWAYS visits his mother after he's done with a region. Likewise, May will ALWAYS visit her parents after she's done with a region. They had her briefly visit the GYM to see her loving (and hot) mother again and her father before she rushed to meet off with Ash in Kanto. You can bet she'll want to see her parents again before Ash escorts her to the D/P region.


And it's possible that they don't want the gang to revisit Hoenn - we don't know where the D/P region is in relation to Kanto, after all.

Ash might not return to Hoenn, but May and Max sure will, if only briefly like they did this time. The writers won't deny a girl and boy from seeing their parents from time to time.


In which case, they have no choice but to leave Bulbasaur with Oak on the off-chance that they'll want to bring it back later.

Suuuure. Or May could have left it with her parents, or she cold have left it with Birch, or...whatever. I'm pretty sure we'll see her Beautifly and Skitty again sometime, she didn't abandon them forever. So she could have easily gotten her Bulba again if she left it at her house anyway.


And I still don't see how it proves Ash/May, since they probably aren't even going to see their Bulbasaurs for at least twenty episodes. :D

I agree, I want to see how Ash and May react when they get back to Pallet. If the two Bulba's actually DO fall in love (which I'm hoping for), how will Ash and May react?

Will they get embarrassed that two of their Pokemon have fallen for each other? Will they just shrug it off? Will Ash and May grow closer together because of this?

We don't know, but it'll be amusing to see what happens because of it. That's why I like Vineshipping so much, it has the possiblity there, a strong one in fact, and it has a great chance of affecting Advanceshipping as well.

So...yipeee!

:: points toward sig::

Shigeru-kun
1st July 2005, 11:11 PM
And I still don't see how it proves Ash/May, since they probably aren't even going to see their Bulbasaurs for at least twenty episodes. :D
Probably because of the whole "Pokemon act off their trainer's personality" bit. Takeshi said it, Ookido-hakase said it, Masato said it, and I know other people in the anime have as well. It's something that's been brought up at least once every region, and something most people take note of.

I mean, look at some of the nevermet shippings! The one of Sakura and Shigeru was only based off the fact her Espeon and his Umbreon could breed...because it makes sense. Usually when two pokemon fall in love, it just seems like a no brainer for their trainers to at least become closer. =/

Jo-Jo
2nd July 2005, 12:11 AM
It just bugs me when people put a shippy spin on everything. Like the only possible explanation for reuniting the Bulbas is to get them makin' babies, stat! And I doubt it's a coincidence that practically the only ones who think so are Advanceshippers. Nobody else in the fandom seems to suspect anything out of the ordinary. May's reason for leaving her Bulbasaur at Oak's, from what I've heard, was so that it can learn from the best, not because she could tell that her Bulbasaur luuurves Ash's so much. To reiterate what I said a couple of posts ago: I'll believe in Vineshipping when I see signs that the Bulbas are attracted to each other. Because so far, the proferred evidence for the ship has been 100% circumstancial.


I agree, I want to see how Ash and May react when they get back to Pallet. If the two Bulba's actually DO fall in love (which I'm hoping for), how will Ash and May react?

Will they get embarrassed that two of their Pokemon have fallen for each other? Will they just shrug it off? Will Ash and May grow closer together because of this?
My prediction? They'd basically say, "oh, that's neat", and carry on as normal.


Probably because of the whole "Pokemon act off their trainer's personality" bit. Takeshi said it, Ookido-hakase said it, Masato said it, and I know other people in the anime have as well. It's something that's been brought up at least once every region, and something most people take note of.
The only way Vineshipping = Ash/May would be if their Pokemon behaved exactly like them - which they don't. Just because Pokemon pick up a few elements of their trainer's personality doesn't mean that they turn into clones of their trainers. If so, then all of Ash's and May's Pokemon would behave the same. How much do Grovyle and Snorunt have in common? Or Beautifly and Munchlax? Not much, says I.

Besides... the LuvDisc HoSo. Anyone want to tell me that Misty/Daisy is now canon? Thought not. ;)

CyberCubed
2nd July 2005, 12:18 AM
The Luvdisc don't belong to Misty. They belong to the GYM. Just like Dewgong and Gyarados are not Misty's, they're the Cerulean GYMs Pokemon, not hers.

Jo-Jo
2nd July 2005, 12:25 AM
According to the Serebii episode guide, the boy Luvdisc belongs to Misty, and the girl is Daisy's.

intergalactic platypus
2nd July 2005, 12:26 AM
well either way i think vineshipping would be cute, but not a terribly advanceshippy thing. for example, if umbreon fell in love with pikachu that doesnt mean ash and gary would start making out on the spot. i think it wont imply anything about the relationships of the trainers themselves

CyberCubed
2nd July 2005, 12:31 AM
^ As I said above, it depends on how Ash and May would react to it.

Although we should probably discuss something other than Vineshipping now, since it's only loosely connected to Advanceshipping.

Jo-Jo
2nd July 2005, 12:36 AM
:D Agreed.

So, er... if Ash likes May, how come he isn't jealous of Sid, Harley or Drew? Inquiring minds, etc. etc.

intergalactic platypus
2nd July 2005, 1:02 AM
thats a good question. he got very angry at guys who hit on misty (particularly rudy), but with may he could care less. if he really adores may, why doesnt he get mad at these things?

Wes
2nd July 2005, 1:19 AM
He's a bit... dim sometimes?

CyberCubed
2nd July 2005, 1:22 AM
:D Agreed.

So, er... if Ash likes May, how come he isn't jealous of Sid, Harley or Drew? Inquiring minds, etc. etc.

Sid: Done for comic relief, and Ash didn't pay much attention or even speak to him in the movie, so I doubt he even noticed.

Harley: Ash sees him as just another opponent, not to mention he wasn't even there during most of the scenes with Harley/May. How would he get jealous over something he didn't even bare witness to?

Drew: See Ash standing next to May when she's blushing at the end of the GF. :D ;)

Shigeru-kun
2nd July 2005, 2:43 AM
I know this is for Contestshipping & Pokeshipping, but I can't help it.

he got very angry at guys who hit on misty (particularly rudy)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Satoshi was never jealous of Jigi. o_o; In fact, he didn't give a crap about the guy! The only reason he was super ticked off in that episode was on account of Jigi ignoring him when he was trying to win a badge. <<; Now Dan...there's someone I think he could have been jealous of if anything.

Also, my two cents on Shouta & Harley

Shouta -- This boy was head over heels for Haruka, but let's face it people. SHE COULDN'T STAND HIM. The only reason Kasumi got jealous of Furura in the second movie was because Satoshi looked like he was enjoying himself...Haruka sure as heck wasn't though. Why be jealous when it's obvious this guy isn't going to win her heart?

Harley -- What I want to know is why would anyone be jealous of Harley? Sure he hung out with Haruka, but the relationship they had was clearly friendship...or at least, that's what it was meant to be it. Still though, why be jealous of that? Also before anyone brings it up, I really don't even think Shuu was jealous. If anything, I actually think he was concerned for Haruka because unlike everyone else, he actually uses his brain. He's not all "ah, ok! ^^" innocent like all the others are.

intergalactic platypus
2nd July 2005, 3:18 AM
excellent argument. looks like i have to come up wiht the "he always rescues may when shes in trouble" reasoning. he saves may yeah, but hes saved misty and i think hes saved brock. friends help each other out. if i pushed someone out of the way of a speeding car, it wouldnt mean i was in love with them. sometimes if its a huge life risking save (pokemon 2000 anyone?) it can be shippy, but i havent seen ash really risk much to rescue her

Jo-Jo
2nd July 2005, 2:36 PM
Harley: Ash sees him as just another opponent, not to mention he wasn't even there during most of the scenes with Harley/May. How would he get jealous over something he didn't even bare witness to?
Actually, Ash was there for most of the Harley/May scenes. The only times he was absent was when Harley greeted May at the beginning of the second ep, and a couple of moments backstage. And if the writers are angling for Advanceshipping, why spend so much time focussing on Drew's jealousy, while having Ash totally indifferent?


Drew: See Ash standing next to May when she's blushing at the end of the GF.
Yeah, and see the way that Brock and Max's expressions are identical to Ash's. :D


Shouta -- This boy was head over heels for Haruka, but let's face it people. SHE COULDN'T STAND HIM. The only reason Kasumi got jealous of Furura in the second movie was because Satoshi looked like he was enjoying himself...Haruka sure as heck wasn't though. Why be jealous when it's obvious this guy isn't going to win her heart?
Boys in love don't tend to be that discerning, but OK, I'll accept that Ash might just not get jealous unless it's the person he likes with the crush. From a writer's perspective, though, it was a real wasted opportunity to foreshadow Advanceshipping. It's hard to get viewers to root for Ash to get the girl when other boys are hitting on her right under his nose and he doesn't care.


Harley -- What I want to know is why would anyone be jealous of Harley?
Ask Drew. ;)


Also before anyone brings it up, I really don't even think Shuu was jealous. If anything, I actually think he was concerned for Haruka because unlike everyone else, he actually uses his brain. He's not all "ah, ok! ^^" innocent like all the others are.
Brock doesn't use his brain? And Max? They actually saw Harley's trickery the first time around, unlike Drew. Did Drew even know what Harley had done in the past? He had far less reason to be suspicious than any of the twerps. Not to mention that if he was only concerned for May, then why did he get angry at her? That moment where he shouts at her in part 2 is completely out of place without the jealousy interpretation. After all, this is the first time we have ever seen him lose his temper in the whole of AG. May has been in trouble before, like when Team Rocket kidnapped her in the Wynaut ep; and she has acted in a way that might harm her Pokemon before, like in Cruisin' For A Losin', when she forced Bulbasaur to compete even though it had stage fright. But Drew never blew up at her then. So what's different this time around?

Shigeru-kun
2nd July 2005, 4:28 PM
Brock doesn't use his brain? And Max? They actually saw Harley's trickery the first time around, unlike Drew. Did Drew even know what Harley had done in the past? He had far less reason to be suspicious than any of the twerps.
Takeshi and Masato may think, but they're naive. Like Satoshi and Haruka, they just thought "Oh, your nice now?" and pretty much accepted it. They're too trusting--not to mention Shuu had front row seat to some of the stuff going on.

How would any of them see Harley smirking behind her back? Shuu only could because he was actually in the contest so of course he'd be suspicious. Harley dropped his guard around him too much.



Not to mention that if he was only concerned for May, then why did he get angry at her? That moment where he shouts at her in part 2 is completely out of place without the jealousy interpretation.
If I'm right, and I'm sure I am, Shuu yelled at Haruka telling her Harley was tricking her all along and so on and so forth. The fact she was too dang blind to see though...*shrugs* I don't know about anyone else, but if I had a friend who did that I'd probably go yell at them too. They should be a bit smarter than that...not to mention with a guy who betrayed you once, and that's what Shuu pretty much said. It could be interpreted as jealously or concern depending on who you are and how you act with people.

It's true that concern also means shippyness, but I never said it doesn't. :p I'm just saying it didn't really seem like a point in time where anyone was jealous. Just worried about her because she was too dippy to realize anything.

XDLord
2nd July 2005, 9:27 PM
The most recent episode proves Advanceshipping is finally getting good. Ash and May spent a LOT of time together, and Delia blushed twice in the same scene, where Ash and May were talking. These are some seriously important hints. The Grand Festival is over, doesn't look like any important hint there compared to the Oak's lab episode.

Transducer
3rd July 2005, 12:28 AM
Yeah, and see the way that Brock and Max's expressions are identical to Ash's. :D



You're missing the point Jojo. Ash was right beside May when the assuming of liking Drew was heard. So why would Ash and Ash alone be there NEXT to May? And how do we really know that May actually likes Drew? Just because she blushed, it doesn't mean a thing IMO. And that fact of mine you countered about the animation team who likes blushes, Im afraid I disagree with ya there.

To elucidate, Ash was right next to her. Maybe May was embarassed because she already is fond of someone else (you know who I'm reffering to) instead of Drew so she naively refused the assuming of liking Drew...

To top my post off, I must let this out. Clear and simple: "May has no loving feelings for Drew." [/IMO]

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 1:24 AM
Takeshi and Masato may think, but they're naive. Like Satoshi and Haruka, they just thought "Oh, your nice now?" and pretty much accepted it. They're too trusting--not to mention Shuu had front row seat to some of the stuff going on.
I agree that Brock and Max are too trusting, but that doesn't explain why Drew would be so suspicious when he has no reason to be. He wasn't there the first time Harley pulled his stunt. As far as I can make out, Harley doesn't reference his past behaviour when saying sorry to May, so unless Drew asked around, which we never see him do, he'd have no idea that Harley was a cheat - just that he'd once done something to warrant an apology.


How would any of them see Harley smirking behind her back? Shuu only could because he was actually in the contest so of course he'd be suspicious. Harley dropped his guard around him too much.
Actually, up until the moment where Drew finds out the truth and tells May, he didn't see Harley smirking behind May's back. Harley only "buahahahaa"s once, prior to the point where Drew blows his cover, and he does that before Drew enters the room.


If I'm right, and I'm sure I am, Shuu yelled at Haruka telling her Harley was tricking her all along and so on and so forth.
That's the translation I heard, too. But that doesn't explain why Drew would be angry, because it's totally contrary to his character. Drew loves it when May makes a prat out of herself. It seems to be his favourite form of entertainment. :D For that matter, none of his actions during the Grand Festival make sense if you assume that he's merely concerned for May's safety or whatever. He makes no attempt at any point to warn her away from Harley; mostly, he just hangs around in the background, sulking. He once butts into their conversation and says that Harley doesn't know what he's talking about, but he doesn't accuse him of faking the friendliness.


The most recent episode proves Advanceshipping is finally getting good. Ash and May spent a LOT of time together, and Delia blushed twice in the same scene, where Ash and May were talking.
:D Why wouldn't they spend a lot of time together? They're friends! And none of us have any idea why Delia was blushing. Hopefully someone who speaks Japanese can provide a translation for that scene. As is, though, to claim it as an Advanceshipping hint is to take it completely out of context.


You're missing the point Jojo. Ash was right beside May when the assuming of liking Drew was heard.
And Brock and Max were right next to Ash. They were all present, they all saw the way May was looking at Drew and heard what Caroline was saying, and they all reacted in the same way - with a surprised stare.

You know, when May tells them her new ambition to be Top Co-ordinator about two seconds after Caroline's teasing, there's a shot of the whole group - and Ash is smiling. Sure doesn't look like jealousy to me.


And how do we really know that May actually likes Drew? Just because she blushed, it doesn't mean a thing IMO.
A girl blushes and loudly protests when accused of liking a boy, and it doesn't mean a thing?


To elucidate, Ash was right next to her. Maybe May was embarassed because she already is fond of someone else (you know who I'm reffering to) instead of Drew so she naively refused the assuming of liking Drew...
Firstly, I find it hard to believe that May would blush when her mother wrongly accused her of liking a boy in the hearing of her crush, but not when accused of liking her actual crush. And secondly, why on Earth would the writers of a children's show mess around with their audience in that manner? How are the little kids who make up the bulk of the viewers (or anyone, for that matter) supposed to realise that May really likes Ash from that scene?

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 1:32 AM
Hopefully someone who speaks Japanese can provide a translation for that scene. As is, though, to claim it as an Advanceshipping hint is to take it completely out of context.

Hey Ms. Jo-Jo, isn't that what Contestshippers did when they thought Caroline teased May about liking Drew, when in fact she just said that she just thought her friend was amazing?

Looks like some people took that out of context for a few good months before someone set them straight. :D

Oh and as for the Ash thing, the camera focused solely on Ash and May while Brock/Max were off screen, showcasing Ash's reaction only.

Good times, Jo-Jo. :D

Sharpshooter
3rd July 2005, 1:35 AM
So why would Ash and Ash alone be there NEXT to May?

By coincidence. Did you honestly think Ash predicted what Caroline was going to say, so he could go an stand there to reassure her nothing was going on?


And how do we really know that May actually likes Drew? Just because she blushed, it doesn't mean a thing IMO.

Ok then that means the hint concerning Ash and May in the episode "The Bicker The Better!" can be disregarded too then, and about a million other hints in other ships, since both denied any attraction towards each other, like with May and Drew.


Maybe May was embarassed because she already is fond of someone else (you know who I'm reffering to) instead of Drew so she naively refused the assuming of liking Drew...

I've never heard of that, ever. If that was true about taking interest in another boy (in your case Ash), then she would have denied it quite easily, without any hesitation, since she knew in her own mind it wasn't true, like how it is practised in lie-detector tests.


To top my post off, I must let this out. Clear and simple: "May has no loving feelings for Drew." [/IMO]

I can actually see if that question was asked on the lie-detector test now, we would have her heart beating out of panic and hear a "EHH-ERR!" noise :P

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 2:16 AM
Hey Ms. Jo-Jo, isn't that what Contestshippers did when they thought Caroline teased May about liking Drew, when in fact she just said that she just thought her friend was amazing?
"Just" said that Drew was amazing? With THAT look on her face? Come on, it was totally clear what she was getting at.


Looks like some people took that out of context for a few good months before someone set them straight. :D
And we have yet to be set straight, since nobody has ever come up with any information that contradicts our interpretation. :p


Oh and as for the Ash thing, the camera focused solely on Ash and May while Brock/Max were off screen, showcasing Ash's reaction only.
They didn't "showcase" Ash's reaction (or lack thereof). The only reason you even noticed his reaction was because screenshots were put up on the internet for us to analyse to death. Ash is in that shot there for approximately FIVE SECONDS. If you'd only ever watched the episode once - as is the case for the vast majority of viewers - then the look on Ash's face (which, may I once again remind you, is exactly the same as the look on Brock and Max's faces) probably wouldn't have even registered with you. The entire focus of the scene was on May and Caroline. Ash doesn't do anything - the sole reason anyone is able to squeeze an Advanceshippy 'hint' out of it is because he happens to coincidentally be standing in the picture.

If the writers were really trying to establish that Ash was jealous, don't you think they might have tried to make it a little bit clearer? Given him a reaction shot? Had him looking actually angry or worried, as opposed to his typical "I'm a clueless crack-baby" expression that he's worn too many times to count throughout this show? Done anything to ensure that somebody aside from a bunch of obsessed shippers on the net would even notice what he looked like??

Transducer
3rd July 2005, 2:42 AM
Well I have nothing to argue against right now... seeing as how my facts were countered by you and Sharpshooter =/ But those are my thoughts and likewise for yours too.

All I gotta say now is the decision is up to May. It's not like May favors Drew over Ash. That's not how it's going at all.. But hey, I'm not saying and concluding that May favors Ash over Drew. It is unknown who May thinks is best...

intergalactic platypus
3rd July 2005, 2:54 AM
people on this thread are overanalyzing a LOT. ash has no reaction at all, and mays reaction cant be read too deeply. the writers like things to be transparent and obvious

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 2:54 AM
Jo-Jo, this is Ash we're talking about. The writers rarely let him show emotion in AG.

I wonder if May's new Squirtle will help bring Ash and her closer, as they have yet ANOTHER Pokemon in common. Here's hoping Ash's Squirtle shows up so we can see them interact.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 3:11 AM
Ash doesn't show emotion? The boy who jumps up and down yelling just because Drew says that he's too scared to enter a Pokemon contest? Who flips out and shouts at his friends because he lost to a trainer that he perceived as a slacker?

And, um, if you agree that Ash didn't show any emotion in the May-Caroline scene, then why are you arguing that he's jealous?

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 3:37 AM
Ash doesn't show emotion? The boy who jumps up and down yelling just because Drew says that he's too scared to enter a Pokemon contest? Who flips out and shouts at his friends because he lost to a trainer that he perceived as a slacker?

Let me rephrase that, they only have Ash show emotion when it deals with Pokemon. In AG, the only time Ash really gets excited or anxious for something is when he's going to a GYM, is challenged to a battle, or is something dealing with Pokemon.

Of course we see small bits of happy and sad Ash otherwise, but they are minimal.


And, um, if you agree that Ash didn't show any emotion in the May-Caroline scene, then why are you arguing that he's jealous?

Re-read my post above yours. Keyword, rarely shows emotion.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 3:55 AM
Let me rephrase that, they only have Ash show emotion when it deals with Pokemon. In AG, the only time Ash really gets excited or anxious for something is when he's going to a GYM, is challenged to a battle, or is something dealing with Pokemon.
That's a bit of a cop-out explanation, though, isn't it? Like when people try to get around Ash not showing signs of fancying their character of choice, and rationalise it away with, "oh, it's because he's too young" (har har. He's just not interested, deal with it, mad shippers).


Re-read my post above yours. Keyword, rarely shows emotion.
So... what are you arguing, exactly? I've lost track. If you do think he was showing emotion in the scene we're discussing, then surely the whole Emotionless!Ash argument is kinda irrelevant?

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 4:02 AM
That's a bit of a cop-out explanation, though, isn't it? Like when people try to get around Ash not showing signs of fancying their character of choice, and rationalise it away with, "oh, it's because he's too young" (har har. He's just not interested, deal with it, mad shippers).

Is it a cop out to say exactly what the writers/animators have been doing with Ash in Pokemon Advance? Surely you can see the difference between Kanto Ash and Hoenn Ash, as we talked about that awhile ago in some other thread most likely in the anime spoilers thread.


So... what are you arguing, exactly? I've lost track. If you do think he was showing emotion in the scene we're discussing, then surely the whole Emotionless!Ash argument is kinda irrelevant?

Emotionless!Ash did not happen at May/Caroline/Ash/GF scene. A few posts above you quoted my post about this and I replied, what kind of a loss are you trying to grasp at here?

hyliansage
3rd July 2005, 4:47 AM
*scoots in*

Umm... so the debate here is whether Ash was jealous or not at the end of the GF, right? IMO... His 'o' expression doesn't really change from when he sticks the ice cream into May's face, to when he stares into the distance, to when he's looking at May blushing, and finally to when he's listening to May's "confession". I'd... put pictures but I'm too lazy to get'em. XD

Though. THAT'S JUST MY OPINION. Everyone interprets art differently, so everyone should be expected to interpret still images of some anime differently as well. XD

Carry on!

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 5:23 AM
Is it a cop out to say exactly what the writers/animators have been doing with Ash in Pokemon Advance?
It would be if you were trying to argue that the only reason Ash didn't look jealous was because he was hiding his feelings, or whatever... but I'm guessing that's not what you were saying.


Emotionless!Ash did not happen at May/Caroline/Ash/GF scene. A few posts above you quoted my post about this and I replied, what kind of a loss are you trying to grasp at here?
I'm lost as to why you brought up Emotionless!Ash in the first place, if you don't believe that he was being emotionless in the scene under discussion. Although I still don't know why you think Ash is showing any emotion in that scene. He just looks blank to me.

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 5:31 AM
Although I still don't know why you think Ash is showing any emotion in that scene. He just looks blank to me.

Doesn't look like that to me:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag123group.jpg

Ash and May are also clearly looking at each other. It makes me wonder what the two are thinking at this time. I don't see why the camera shot would focus solely on Ash/May/Caroline for this part for no reason at all, even if it only lasted about 3-4 seconds long. It's implied by the writers/animators to ONLY have Ash pictured here, so something was going through their heads when writing the stage directions for this scene.

hyliansage
3rd July 2005, 5:58 AM
Doesn't look like that to me:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag123group.jpg

Ash and May are also clearly looking at each other. It makes me wonder what the two are thinking at this time. I don't see why the camera shot would focus solely on Ash/May/Caroline for this part for no reason at all, even if it only lasted about 3-4 seconds long. It's implied by the writers/animators to ONLY have Ash pictured here, so something was going through their heads when writing the stage directions for this scene.

*blinks* May looks like she's looking at Caroline to me... Ash is looking at May though. And maybe the writers figured that having Brock and Max in the picture too would take away the viewer's focus on May and Caroline? And Ash is just there 'cause he was the one who shoved the ice cream in May's face and thus would be logically standing closer to her in the first place? IMO IMO! XD Haha. I applaud your giving so much credit to the writers for wanting to imply things though. I never give'em any credit. XD

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 6:01 AM
*blinks* May looks like she's looking at Caroline to me...

Nah, May's eyes point directly toward Ash. She has no reason to look at her mother, since her mother already made the comment about Drew a few moments ago. She's staring at Ash.

To me, it looks like both of them are trying to figure something out about each other.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 6:05 AM
Doesn't look like that to me:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag123group.jpg
That's the same clueless expression that Ash has worn at frequent points throughout the series. I really, honestly don't see how you're getting jealousy from it.


Ash and May are also clearly looking at each other.
Um. May is looking at Caroline. She is, after all, the one who's speaking.


It makes me wonder what the two are thinking at this time.
I have a pretty good idea what May is thinking. ;) As for Ash... "Duuuuhhhh... what's May's mom on about?"


I don't see why the camera shot would focus solely on Ash/May/Caroline for this part for no reason at all, even if it only lasted about 3-4 seconds long. It's implied by the writers/animators to ONLY have Ash pictured here, so something was going through their heads when writing the stage directions for this scene.
Why wouldn't it focus on them? Caroline has a line; she's saying it to May. Naturally, the camera moves over to them. In order to chop Ash out of the shot, either it'd have to move so far over that it would be showing a big patch of empty space on May's right, or it'd have to zoom in. Since simply shifting it over a few inches is much less complicated and distracting, the animators went with that. Good grief, are we really going to start spinning out complex theories about camera angles?? The scene is still not Advanceshippy for the following reasons:

1. Ash does not look worried, suspicious or angry. He is simply pulling his "huh?" face. There are many screenshots out there of him in other episodes with the same expression.

2. Brock and Max are making the same face as Ash. Surely you don't think they fancy her, too? I doubt that Pokemon is about to become 'There's Something About May'.

3. In the shot immediately following that picture, Ash is smiling.

4. It's ridiculous to believe that the writers could expect anyone to get that Ash was jealous based on a five second-long shot that didn't focus on him in the slightest. Not to mention that he has consistently failed to get jealous of any of May's potential love-interests so far, so why would he start now?

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 6:12 AM
Um. May is looking at Caroline. So is Ash, I should imagine. She is, after all, the one who's speaking.

Caroline has already finished speaking! This is Caroline's "Eheheheheheh!" expression! XD

How can you not see the direction of May's eyes? Her face is even turned at a 35 degree angle to have her face him. Lol, I can see now that we'll be debating about who May is looking at for the next couple of posts. ;)


I have a pretty good idea what May is thinking. ;) As for Ash... "Duuuuhhhh... what's May's mom on about?"

Or, "I sure hope May isn't interested in that Drew character"


Why wouldn't it focus on them? Caroline has a line; she's saying it to May. Naturally, the camera moves over to them. In order to chop Ash out of the shot, either it'd have to move so far over that it would be showing a big patch of empty space on May's right, or it'd have to zoom in. Since simply shifting it over a few inches is much less complicated and distracting, the animators went with that. Good grief, are we really going to start spinning out complex theories about camera angles??

Ash walks up to May first. Brock and Max are out of the camera shot, out of focus. Before this Ash shoved ice cream in her face to get to this point, and it's not about Ash being "the main character" to be here either. He walked right there to be next to May!


1. Ash does not look worried, suspicious or angry. He is simply pulling his "huh?" face. There are many screenshots out there of him in other episodes with the same expression.

Not in this context.


3. In the shot immediately following that picture, Ash is smiling.

As do mostly all the characters expressions change from shot to shot in ANY episode. That means little.


4. It's ridiculous to believe that the writers could expect anyone to get that Ash was jealous based on a five second-long shot that didn't focus on him in the slightest. Not to mention that he has consistently failed to get jealous of any of May's potential love-interests so far, so why would he start now?

I'm still baffled as to why you bring up Sid or Harley as potential love interests, as the writers wouldn't have Ash get jealous or even interact with characters who are a non-factor.

Sid, being a one-shot movie character, would never be with May.

Harley, being a total nutjob, would never get with May. Not to mention he hates her guts, so I don't see why you see him as a potential love interest. He always had that "omnious" look in his eye when he was grabbing May's hands to me. Then again, Harley is a total nutcase so I don't know what to think about HIM.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 6:30 AM
Caroline has already finished speaking! This is Caroline's "Eheheheheheh!" expression! XD
Nuh-uh, because as soon as Caroline stops speaking, May freaks out and starts protesting.


How can you not see the direction of May's eyes? Lol, I can see now that we'll be debating about who May is looking at for the next couple of posts. ;)
She's looking upwards, and her face is tilted towards Caroline. If she were looking at Ash, her line of vision would be directly to the side.


Ash walks up to May first. Brock and Max are out of the camera shot, out of focus. Before this Ash shoved ice cream in her face to get to this point, and it's not about Ash being "the main character" to be here either. He walked right there to be next to May!
He walked up to May with the ice-cream, with Brock, Max and Caroline right behind him. They were then all standing together, in a group, while May stared after Drew and blushed. The camera then moved over to focus on Caroline rushing up to May and teasing her. Ash is not separated from the others at any point.


Not in this context.
I can immediately think of one more occasion when it was in this context - A Tents Situation, when Brock was huddled on the floor because someone had just mentioned Professor Ivy's name. Misty was trying to explain to Ash that "Brock liked Professor Ivy", and Ash was staring cluelessly at her, with that expression. Ash always gets that look on his face when he doesn't quite get what's going on. He never gets it when he's jealous.


As do mostly all the characters expressions change from shot to shot in ANY episode. That means little.
If I were animating the scene where the hero finally takes an interest in his love-interest, I sure as hell wouldn't forget what I was doing to the extent that I'd have him go from jealous to cheerfully grinning in the space of five seconds. Then again, neither would I animate the hero's jealousy in such a way that nobody aside from a bunch of overanalysing fans on the internet would notice it.


I'm still baffled as to why you bring up Sid or Harley as potential love interests, as the writers wouldn't have Ash get jealous or even interact with characters who are a non-factor.
Yet they saw fit to let Drew get extremely jealous of Harley. Wonder why? :p


Sid, being a one-shot movie character, would never be with May.
I suppose Misty ought to have been totally indifferent to Melody, then.


Harley, being a total nutjob, would never get with May. Not to mention he hates her guts, so I don't see why you see him as a potential love interest.
And you don't find it at all telling that so much screentime was devoted to Drew's jealousy of Harley, while neglecting to even show Ash's reaction to him, other than the vague group, "oh, I guess he's alright now he's hanging with May" consensus?


He always had that "omnious" look in his eye when he was grabbing May's hands to me.
And it was that ominous look that attracted Drew's suspicion. Ash, as usual, didn't give a toss.

Transducer
3rd July 2005, 8:46 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag123group.jpg



Hmm that's funny. From my end, it seems that May is staring at Ash. I even saved the image on my desktop, opened it up, and zoomed in on it and it is clear to me that she is staring at Ash, not Caroline. Cybercubed is correct.

Cloud Strife
3rd July 2005, 9:32 AM
Yet they saw fit to let Drew get extremely jealous of Harley. Wonder why?

I suppose Misty ought to have been totally indifferent to Melody, then.

And you don't find it at all telling that so much screentime was devoted to Drew's jealousy of Harley, while neglecting to even show Ash's reaction to him, other than the vague group, "oh, I guess he's alright now he's hanging with May" consensus?

Pretty much the match right there, Advance Shippers just got blasted by a fellow Contestshipper, by their OWN arguments :).
I don't know why I did this, I have never even done this with Pokeshipping, but I have analized that shot over and over again, and I don't see ANY jealousy from Ash, and I can't tell who May is looking at, (I think it is her mom, but I am biased) but it is certainly not clear cut Ash, it is difficult to tell.

Juny
3rd July 2005, 10:51 AM
Hmm that's funny. From my end, it seems that May is staring at Ash. I even saved the image on my desktop, opened it up, and zoomed in on it and it is clear to me that she is staring at Ash, not Caroline. Cybercubed is correct.
Yes, but that shot is taken from a scene where May is turining her head at Caroline. If theyd zoom out on that part you'd probably see everyone staring at Caroline. Yet if they did that, it'd be more difficult to see Caroline's and May's expressions. And then again, this shot is taken at a part where Ash is turining to see Caroline... Not May.

Meh, I won't have people guessing what sort of shipper I am... :p

Transducer
3rd July 2005, 11:30 AM
Yes, but that shot is taken from a scene where May is turining her head at Caroline. If theyd zoom out on that part you'd probably see everyone staring at Caroline. Yet if they did that, it'd be more difficult to see Caroline's and May's expressions. And then again, this shot is taken at a part where Ash is turining to see Caroline... Not May.

Meh, I won't have people guessing what sort of shipper I am... :p

Good argument Juny. But FYI, Ash was turning to see May, not Caroline. May was looking at Ash as well. I'm almost certain about this. The key word is zoom -_-; Need I have to point out my last post or the quoted one? =P

Juny
3rd July 2005, 1:16 PM
Good argument Juny. But FYI, Ash was turning to see May, not Caroline. May was looking at Ash as well. I'm almost certain about this. The key word is zoom -_-; Need I have to point out my last post or the quoted one? =P
But he wouldn't have to turn completely to see May, right? She was like standing right next to him in the pose you made the shot from. And I think it's, even if you zoom in (and I did, you really pointed out enough Transducer ;)) very hard to tell who May's looking at. It could be Ash, but since it was Caroline speaking, it'd be way more logical if she was looking at Caroline (not like Pokémon's always so logical :p) and Ash and the others, which are not on screen but probably are looking at Caroline too. Or at both, maybe? Since both of them are talking...

Transducer
3rd July 2005, 1:26 PM
But he wouldn't have to turn completely to see May, right? She was like standing right next to him in the pose you made the shot from. And I think it's, even if you zoom in (and I did, you really pointed out enough Transducer ;)) very hard to tell who May's looking at. It could be Ash, but since it was Caroline speaking, it'd be way more logical if she was looking at Caroline (not like Pokémon's always so logical :p) and Ash and the others, which are not on screen but probably are looking at Caroline too. Or at both, maybe? Since both of them are talking...

Well obviously we both have different observations huh? :p

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 3:27 PM
My god, is it that hard to believe that May is looking at Ash since he's standing 2 feet away from her?

If she was looking at her mother her face would be tilted further back. She's looking at Ash because he's STANDING right there!

Must I bring this pic into photoshop and draw lines from the directions of May's eyes to prove it?

Megaflare
3rd July 2005, 3:57 PM
well I am here so here goes nothing.

what a your people arguing about of that picture with May, Caroline and Ash?
from my point view and the direction of May face and eyes I see May looking at Ash a not to Caroline.

I also wonder why people keep saying the thing between Ash and May is just a single friendship I still don't get it they already prove they are more than that by now.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 4:30 PM
-_- I can't quite believe we're having this discussion... lol.

Why would May be looking at Ash when her mother is the one who's talking? If you really want to analyse her line of sight to death, go ahead, but first present me with a reason why she would flat-out ignore somebody who's speaking to her in order to look at somebody else who isn't doing anything to attract her attention. May isn't that rude, you know.

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 4:52 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag123group.jpg

May is looking at Ash because her face and body direction is pointed at him. Caroline is standing behind Ash and May. May's face and body are pointed toward Ash, she's not looking over her shoulder at her mother.

Thus, May would have to either:

A) Completely turn around to face her mother

or

B) Tilt her head back to see what her mother was saying.

There's also the fact that May could very well be listening to her mother without looking at her. Do you ALWAYS stare at a person for every single sentence they say in real life? Especially if someone is standing right behind you, you don't have to turn around and face them to hear what they're saying!

May is also looking at Ash because she's noticed that he's looking back at her. They're looking and staring at each other, I never knew this was so complicated.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 5:08 PM
Hehe. I was just powerfully reminded of the Quidditch World Cup seating arrangement debate we once had in the Harry Potter shipping wars. Went on three pages, that stupid argument did.[/nostalgia]

Anyway, no, May would not have to look over her shoulder to see Caroline. You do realise that you are the only people in the world who think she's looking at Ash, right? Ask anyone who's seen the GF episodes who isn't an Advanceshipper, and they'll tell you she was looking at Caroline, simply because it's the only logical explanation. Hey, start a poll if it means that much to you. I mean, why would she look at Ash? I have yet to hear that question answered.

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 5:11 PM
Would you like me to make a poll in the Anime Polls section asking if May is looking at Caroline or Ash?

I won't mention anything else such as the scenario or whatever, just to see what people believe May is looking Ash.

Should I go ahead?

I seriously don't know how you can deny visual evidence right in front of you.

Sushi
3rd July 2005, 5:22 PM
Will I manage to say this without getting decollated? -_-;
This whole discussion is stupid, guys. And that's exactly the reason why I hate debate threads. You just can't avoid drifting to strange discussions like this one.
I mean, shouldn't we be discussing which shipping is more likely to happen? Yes, we should.
Does it make AdvanceShipping more likely to happen if May was indeed looking at Ash? No.
Does it make ContestShipping more likely to happen if May was looking at her mother? No.

Seriously, please someone tell me what the point of this is.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 5:28 PM
Would you like me to make a poll in the Anime Polls section asking if May is looking at Caroline or Ash?
Hey, start a poll if you want. I'd be interested to see the results. While you're at it, might as well do it on all the major sites - Bulbagarden and the like.


This whole discussion is stupid, guys.
I know. ^^;; Ship wars, eh? ;)

CyberCubed
3rd July 2005, 6:11 PM
Hey, start a poll if you want. I'd be interested to see the results. While you're at it, might as well do it on all the major sites - Bulbagarden and the like.

I'll post it in the Anime polls section, but I'm not going to tell any Advanceshippers about it just like you shouldn't tell any Contestshippers about the poll.

Let people stumble onto it by themselves. The last thing I want to do is alert a bunch of Advance/Contest shippers about it so they just blindly vote depending on what ship they like.

I want people to discover the poll on their own, so I'm not going to make any posts about it in the Advanceshipping thread at all. I hope you will do the same for the Contestshipping thread.

This way non-shippers in general can also vote, since I also want to see what people who dislike ships in general think who May is looking at.

Let it be clear cut, you can give reasons in the poll thread if you want, but I'm just going to post the pic to see what people think at first glance regardless of the scenario.

EDIT: I just posted the poll, check it out.

Jo-Jo
3rd July 2005, 9:53 PM
Thanks, Cybercubed. ^_^ Aaaaaand the results are coming in. So far, it's a pretty even split, with eleven votes for Ash and thirteen for Caroline. (BTW, did you vote? I did, but if you didn't, then mine should be discounted.) Even if the voting is about equal, though, most of the comments seem to be skewed in favour of Caroline... here's what's been said so far:

In favour of Ash:

Well I'll post here before it turns into a flame war. It looks like she is looking at Ash in the picture because of how she and Ash are in front of her mother. The reason she is blushing could be because her mother just said something that had to do with her and Ash. *Now I go hide off in the anti-flame war shelter*
- Waveblaster


(this is getting ridiculous)

She's looking at Satoshi.

Basically, when you draw cartoons/anime/comics/etc. it's very important that you keep things in perspective.

Look at the green dashed lines in the picture above. Perception is also important when someone in a cartoon show/anime make eye-contact with another.

Hope that clears up everything.
- HavoX



In favour of Caroline:

I say she's looking at her mother. Ash is there, but so is Max and Brock, they're just not in that shot. Caroline had just said something to May about Drew, and that's why she's blushing.
- Jolty


wtf.

She's looking at her frikking MOTHER. Caroline was talking to her at the time. She was looking and listening to her. -_-
- Alfonso


They're both looking at Caroline. She kinda slides in out of nowhere at that point, surprising them both.
Before that point, they're both watching Shuu walk off along the beach, and they both sort of turn their heads around to look at her.
- Gravy


o.O She's lookin at her mother... imo
- Jeremy


just 2 answer dis.......... she was staring at her mom, not Ash.
- Sweet May


Yes, you can clearly tell they are looking slightly behind. It's just hard to gauge because this is a 2D cartoon and not one of their better animation teams
- The Big Al


It doesn't because it just adds more confusion to those who don't know better. They're looking at Haruka's mother. They can't draw the pupils to go further back into their sockets, yanno. o_O Why the hell would Haruka look at Satoshi as her mother pops in and starts talking?
- Edward Elric


Hmmm...

You know what, I think by looking at Hakura's pupils again, I'm going to agree with you.

/me wishes I was never involved in the conversation in the first place
- HavoX


I thought you guys were joking, I can't believe you actually went through with this, this is embarrassing. On a positive note, even with Advanceshippers coming here, and few contestshippers coming here, the swing votes are clearly going our way. We are winning By the way, I think she is looking at her mom, like I said on the other thread.
- Cloud Strife


Actually, she's staring into the open space between them. But that's just because the animators don't spend hours critiqueing every frame. Obviously. Especially Pokemon animators. She's supposed to be looking at her mother who is talking to her.
- Master of Chaos



In favour of both:

maybe she's looking at both!

each one of her eyes look like they are facing both of them
- ShucklemasterJ


I think that's pretty clear.
She's looking at ... both!! OMG!
With one eye she's looking at her mother, and that must be obvious, since normally, when somebody speaks to you, you turn and look at them.
The other eye is focused on Ash since it hasn't anything else to do.
*feels smarter than ever before*
- Sushi


both that's why i didn't vote in the poll
- RayquazaX


In favour of, uh, Pikachu(...?):

I think she is looking at Pikachu to be honest because it's looking straight back right at her face
- Joe


Inconclusive:
It just looks like one of those typical teenage embarrassment scenarios to me, like Caroline said something utterly stupid and Ash and May are embarrassed for her and are thinking “WTF is she talking about”… ‘nuff said. Nothing significant here.
- IMPERIAL DRAGON


No offense, but the whole "you must look at people when they speak! :0" is just a load of bull. Half the time I ever speak to people I don't look at them. o_o; In fact, there are a lot of times my mom or dad will yell something at me and I don't even look away from what I'm doing. So yes...basing it all off of talking is just stupid. True it makes sense since most animators have characters face each other when one if speaking, but it's not always true.
- Shigeru-Kun




So only two people spoke up and claimed she was looking at Ash (or possibly three... wasn't sure about Shigeru-Kun), one of whom changed his/her mind later; whereas ten people argued that she was looking at Caroline.

Kiori
4th July 2005, 1:20 AM
Hey Ms. Jo-Jo, isn't that what Contestshippers did when they thought Caroline teased May about liking Drew, when in fact she just said that she just thought her friend was amazing?

I, for one, do not trust Zak's guide. First of all, I found places where you can say, "Are you sure?! Because I'm sure that's not right." For example, the May saying that Harley tricked her in her 2nd appeal. She did not know that Harley was tricking her. She said "Gomen Haari-san" (something close to that) and does that say that she knew that Harley was tricking her in the middle of her 2nd appeal? Even the people who only knows a bit of Japanese can understand what she was saying right there.

Second of all, if anyone is willing to give me the precise dialouge of what Caroline said, I'd be more than willing to look it up. I looked up on the possible Japanese words there are for amazing, but the thing is, the Japanese words I found doesn't even sound as close as what Caroline said. So, in my conclusion, I can't really trust the guide for those GF episodes. :D


Ash and May spent a LOT of time together, and Delia blushed twice in the same scene, where Ash and May were talking.

I have one thing to say to this. Todd/Ash, Gary/Ash, Richie/Ash, [insert any character that has spent a lot of time with Ash in the whole entire show so far]/Ash are now official couples! :D


Just because she blushed, it doesn't mean a thing IMO.

Try telling that to the people who supports shippings that are proven to be canon with the lists that includes blushing scenes all over it. :p Anyway, that's your opinion, so w/e, I guess. lol

Oh, and by the way, for the [insert what Brock said about the pokemon and their trainers, 'cause I forgot what it was] part, then Ash and that Gloom trainer should've been a couple now right!? :D I mean, both Gloom and Bulbasaur was SO attracted to each other, they even BLUSHED and were cuddling together. ^///^ So shouldn't Ash and that Gloom trainer be together already!? :p


Nah, May's eyes point directly toward Ash. She has no reason to look at her mother, since her mother already made the comment about Drew a few moments ago. She's staring at Ash.

Sounds like you're daydreaming to me.


"I sure hope May isn't interested in that Drew character"

I, for one, have watched numerous of anime and read a bunch of Mangas with couples. If Ash was thinking that, his expression should've been different than that expression at least, imo.


Harley, being a total nutjob, would never get with May. Not to mention he hates her guts, so I don't see why you see him as a potential love interest. He always had that "omnious" look in his eye when he was grabbing May's hands to me. Then again, Harley is a total nutcase so I don't know what to think about HIM.

Then why does it seem like Shuu was always looking at both Haruka and Harley whenever they're together in the same scene with that sour expression? Why would he, I dunno, don't want Harley to be near Haruka? Why was he constantly putting on a angry (or you can say jealousy ^^) whenever he sees Harley grabbing Haruka's hand. Imo, he sees it as if Harley was "flirting" with Haruka. In almost every anime and Manga, that is one of the keys to canon couples, imo at least.


Hmm that's funny. From my end, it seems that May is staring at Ash. I even saved the image on my desktop, opened it up, and zoomed in on it and it is clear to me that she is staring at Ash, not Caroline. Cybercubed is correct.

You try drawing the anime then. :D 'Cause in my opinion, Cybercubed's comment was incorrect about them looking at one another. Anybody can clearly see that they're not looking at each other, unless you're a very obsessed shipper of the ship.


But FYI, Ash was turning to see May, not Caroline.

And how would you know? It's a clear 2D image for goodness sake. If you were a REAL manga or anime artist, you would know what is up with that image, imo. Then again, some manga and anime artists have different ways to view and draw them.


May's face and body are pointed toward Ash, she's not looking over her shoulder at her mother.

Actually, if I were to turn around to face my friends, and to face someone that's behind me, do I have to turn my whole body around to face that someone? Do I really have to? ~.~


It doesn't because it just adds more confusion to those who don't know better. They're looking at Haruka's mother. They can't draw the pupils to go further back into their sockets, yanno. o_O Why the hell would Haruka look at Satoshi as her mother pops in and starts talking?
- Edward Elric

I'd have to agree with him on that. :p

And what is up with the debate for the pic? Can somebody PLEASE tell me WHY we're debating about this? Is there any significance to this? >> Just because you look at someone doesn't mean you "like" them right off. It's not even a hint. You can daydream, exaggerate about it, but you can't claim that it's a hint just because they're just looking at each other, unless it's one of those moments where the animators make an exaggerated scene.

CyberCubed
4th July 2005, 1:50 AM
Jo-Jo: Yeah, I voted on the poll too. Curses that I'm losing, if only by a few votes.

::shakes fist:: ;)

Seems the majority of people who voted for Ash didn't seem to post comments at all, they just voted but didn't post. Disappointing, since I would have liked to hear what their reasons were.

Kiori:

If you don't trust Zak's guide, perhaps ask Murgatoyd the *exact* translation of what Caroline said about Drew during that scene. The GF aired MONTHS ago, surely someone has to have the literal translation by now.

As for Harley, I don't believe he's attracted to May at all. Drew, possibly, but Harley?

The thing with Harley/May is that it's not even a love/hate relationship, it's an obsession on Harley's part to ridicule or damage May's reputation in any way possible. It's made clear in his first appearance that he despises May, just because he grabs her hands doesn't meen he's ready to gobble her down.

But then again, it probably won't matter, since 4kids is likely to turn Harley into a girl. I personally cannot wait for the dub of his first appearance just to crack up laughing if that does indeed happen. :D

Kiori
4th July 2005, 2:15 AM
Kiori:

If you don't trust Zak's guide, perhaps ask Murgatoyd the *exact* translation of what Caroline said about Drew during that scene. The GF aired MONTHS ago, surely someone has to have the literal translation by now.

As for Harley, I don't believe he's attracted to May at all. Drew, possibly, but Harley?

The thing with Harley/May is that it's not even a love/hate relationship, it's an obsession on Harley's part to ridicule or damage May's reputation in any way possible. It's made clear in his first appearance that he despises May, just because he grabs her hands doesn't meen he's ready to gobble her down.

But then again, it probably won't matter, since 4kids is likely to turn Harley into a girl. I personally cannot wait for the dub of his first appearance just to crack up laughing if that does indeed happen. :D

Dude, I would ask him if I can catch him. =P But even if it has aired months ago, someone might not have a the almost-correct literal translation right now, ne? :p

It's clear in our eyes that Harley loathes Haruka with a passion. But Shuu on the other hand, as similar to other animes/mangas as it might be, doesn't know that Harley trully hates Haruka. We've only see him glaring at Harley and Haruka, whenever Harley "flirts" with Haruka, until to the point where we see him finally figuring out that Haruka's mistakes in the second appeal was mostly Harley's fault. Plus, Shuu wasn't even there at the time Harley made his first appearance in the series. So how could he have known? :p (This is mostly regarding on the past arguments <.<;; )

It would be cool if they make Harley have a guy sounding like a girl for the dubbed one. lol :p

Sweet May
4th July 2005, 2:33 AM
ok........... i dink dis thread is going crazy........... i'm still supportin contestshipping here...... but i'm lost........

XDLord
4th July 2005, 2:45 AM
I have one thing to say to this. Todd/Ash, Gary/Ash, Richie/Ash, [insert any character that has spent a lot of time with Ash in the whole entire show so far]/Ash are now official couples!

Then so Harley/May are couples, Max/May, Brock/Max, May/Brock and a heck lot more people.

Kiori
4th July 2005, 7:15 AM
Then so Harley/May are couples, Max/May, Brock/Max, May/Brock and a heck lot more people.

Exactly. Now... Where does this fit into the topic? oO

Juny
4th July 2005, 10:11 AM
XD I gotta admit, this debate is getting a little strange, and we're obviously never going to agree, but... I don't know WHY May and Ash would look at each other while May's mother pops up right behind them and starts squealing? Would you start looking at the person next to you or at the person who's talking? Most would probably look at the talking person, even if it were just to see who it is...

And May was standing like nearly next to Ash, so would he have to turn completely to see her? Caroline was standing behind him, so he had to turn to see her... Might be not the romantic way but the logical way, but Pokémon isn't really romantic. And everyone who draws manga or anime knows it's really hard to make the eyes look exactly at one person.

And Harley hates May, that's so obvious, but if Drew doesn't know that, he can still be jaleous, right? And May really trusted Harley and was around him quite a lot, but I don't think that if she'd meet him again she'd like him that much... There is probably no way that they'll ever end up in a relationship ;)

Hm... can't come up with anything to say anymore ~.~

Jo-Jo
4th July 2005, 10:58 AM
The point about Harley isn't that he was interested in May - he wasn't - but that the writers used him to establish Drew's jealousy, not Ash's. It seems very, very peculiar that they would focus on the feelings of a character who according to the Advanceshippy interpretation is nothing more than a jealousy object himself, while neglecting to show any reaction from May's actual love-interest.

As for the guide... meh, I've always trusted Bulbagarden guides, and I'm sure the Grand Festival one is accurate enough - but I don't think we should treat it as the definitive be-all, end-all interpretation, either. The thing is, unlike really in-depth guides like the Pokemopolis ones, Bulbagarden guides are supposed to be more like reasonably detailed synopses. So I wouldn't expect an exact, literal translation of every line of dialogue. What I imagine probably happened at the end was that Caroline said something along the lines of, "so your friend Drew is really something, huh?", and the guide writer gave an approximation of that line ("amazing"), not realising that us weirdoes were going to overanalyse it to death.

Although it's really something of a moot point anyway, since that part would still be shippy no matter what adjective you substitute. The gist of the scene is that Caroline teases May about liking Drew by dropping in some innuendo-ridden line about how great he is, while smirking like Cassidy on speed.

Oh, and just because we haven't quite beaten the "who was May looking at?" topic to death, I want to repeat something that someone pointed out in the polls section. May can't be looking at Ash, because she doesn't move in between looking up in surprise when Caroline skids into view, and freaking out and protesting to Caroline. The only way she could be looking at Ash in that screenshot is if she was looking at him right from the moment Caroline appeared - which is, to be blunt, crazy. When somebody pops up and startles you, you tend to look at them, not the guy standing next to you.

*Twilight Night*
4th July 2005, 10:09 PM
The point about Harley isn't that he was interested in May - he wasn't - but that the writers used him to establish Drew's jealousy, not Ash's. It seems very, very peculiar that they would focus on the feelings of a character who according to the Advanceshippy interpretation is nothing more than a jealousy object himself, while neglecting to show any reaction from May's actual love-interest.

The writer's used him to establish Drew's jealousy? Since when and with what information? I'm not being serious here, FYI, I know what you mean. XP

It seemed to me the whole time Drew was just watching them out of suspicion. You can't just say it's jealousy.

Even though Drew doesn't fully know Harley's hatred for May, from other contests, I'm sure he picks some things up. He isnt' dense after all. And I think his looks were supposed to reperesent how he was coming into terms of what Harley was planning, like anylizing, (Being nice to May, saying how great she was, sucking up to her...) not that he was jealous. You should think Drew has enough sense to figure what's going on around him, especially in the second appeal, where he fully (I think) understood what was happening. And later he just tells May how oblivious she has been. Well, she wasn't that blind, since she didn't do exactly what Harley told her or stopped herself, or did the moves she showed Harley. She would have lost...

Still those stares could interpret as jealousy and suspicion, but I rather go with the second, cause it makes sense to what is happening and what happens later. I think it's a resolution contestshippers decided on. I wouldn't know since I don't go to your threads. I'm not fully denying it either though. ^_^; At least about telling her, Drew showed he cared, but I think that's about it.


As for the guide... meh, I've always trusted Bulbagarden guides, and I'm sure the Grand Festival one is accurate enough - but I don't think we should treat it as the definitive be-all, end-all interpretation, either. The thing is, unlike really in-depth guides like the Pokemopolis ones, Bulbagarden guides are supposed to be more like reasonably detailed synopses. So I wouldn't expect an exact, literal translation of every line of dialogue. What I imagine probably happened at the end was that Caroline said something along the lines of, "so your friend Drew is really something, huh?", and the guide writer gave an approximation of that line ("amazing"), not realising that us weirdoes were going to overanalyse it to death.

Although it's really something of a moot point anyway, since IMO that part would still be shippy no matter what adjective you substitute. The gist of the scene is that Caroline teases May about liking Drew by dropping in some innuendo-ridden line about how great he is, while smirking like Cassidy on speed.

I really dont' know what to believe. I'm just going to wait for the translation if 4Kids don't screw it up. Unless someone does it before...


Oh, and just because we haven't quite beaten the "who was May looking at?" topic to death , I want to repeat something that someone pointed out in the polls section. May can't be looking at Ash, because she doesn't move in between looking up in surprise when Caroline skids into view, and freaking out and protesting to Caroline. The only way she could be looking at Ash in that screenshot is if she was looking at him right from the moment Caroline appeared - which is, to be blunt, crazy. When somebody pops up and startles you, you tend to look at them, not the guy standing next to you.

And the picture...started a very weird topic, no? Strange how it keeps going... XD!

Shouldn't we think of something else, though?

Kiori
5th July 2005, 1:50 AM
It seemed to me the whole time Drew was just watching them out of suspicion. You can't just say it's jealousy.

Even though Drew doesn't fully know Harley's hatred for May, from other contests, I'm sure he picks some things up. He isnt' dense after all. And I think his looks were supposed to reperesent how he was coming into terms of what Harley was planning, like anylizing, (Being nice to May, saying how great she was, sucking up to her...) not that he was jealous. You should think Drew has enough sense to figure what's going on around him, especially in the second appeal, where he fully (I think) understood what was happening. And later he just tells May how oblivious she has been. Well, she wasn't that blind, since she didn't do exactly what Harley told her or stopped herself, or did the moves she showed Harley. She would have lost...

Still those stares could interpret as jealousy and suspicion, but I rather go with the second, cause it makes sense to what is happening and what happens later. I think it's a resolution contestshippers decided on. I wouldn't know since I don't go to your threads. I'm not fully denying it either though. ^_^; At least about telling her, Drew showed he cared, but I think that's about it.

I think you can say that he was jealous instead of suspicious, or you can say both, I guess. He wouldn't need to use that kind of tone when Haruka finally found out the trick that was up Harley's sleeve, imo. That was a bit exaggerated if he were not to be romantically interested in Haruka. :p

I don't think he was exactly looking at what Harley's planning to do with Haruka. If we just observe the pictures for those series, Shuu just suddenly appear in the middle of Haruka and Harley's conversations with that very annoyed expression. Okay, so the "very" might be a bit exaggerated, but you get the point. ^^; Usually that "annoyed expression" are considered as jealousy among most of the shippers communities. At least, I think so. o.O Plus, Shuu didn't even know Harley until he pops in out of nowhere with Haruka introducing the two to each other. So he can't possibly know that Harley is the bad guy in that whole GF episode, until Harley suddenly spilled out some of the beans. :p

...But I don't disagree that he was kind of suspicious of Harley. Let's call it, the "Guy's instinct" as shown in numerous anime and manga. :p

Perhaps 9/10 shippers who actually saw the pics first before watching the episode and/or reading the synopsis could say that the first thing that came out to their mind was that Shuu was jealous without thinking that there might be a second possibility.

XDLord
5th July 2005, 2:55 AM
Exactly, and didn't come to think that Harley hated May. I have to agree, it was a bit shippy and possessive, but more of that Drew wanted a fair fight, that's for 4Kids would interpret it as for it's reaction in the later possible Contestshipping episodes.

Encyclopika
5th July 2005, 8:55 PM
Jealousy and suspicion could both be there equally, ya know. It seemed Drew was trying to figure Harley out...after all, from the pictures I've seen the 2/3 fration I saw out of the entire GF, saying this not contestshipply, both feelings were there. At some points, when Harley was sucking up to May, Drew watched them and IMO, became a little p*ssed off. And, to bring up another point, if Drew doesn't like May or care about her in any way, then why in hell would the writers go out of their way to show Drew in that kind of expression EVERY time Harley grabbed May's hands and "flirted"? Sucked up? What ever he did? Just...why? if it doesn't matter and there's nothing there?
As for the picture...I can't believe there is actually a fricken poll out there for it...I mean come the hell on. But I guess I can't blame you...I've done and said crazier things. XD What do I have to say on the topic? Well, when it was first brought up, I thought, "wow, you are sooooo desperate for hints." Then, after looking at it, I could see where you might think it could work out in your favor, but I can't agree with you. That just makes no sense. Someone should compare the two "jealous" looks on our boys...

XDLord
5th July 2005, 9:22 PM
Exactly, but if he knew Harley hated May, he would have done one the two following things:

1) Kick Harley around(Contestshippy)

2) Ignore Harley (Neutral)

Wes
5th July 2005, 9:53 PM
I might as well try once more. Let's see we have a guy name Harley (Who I have no idea what's hes about since I never saw him) thats a cheater and he's sucking up to May just to cheat more. Okay and people are saying that Drew is suspicous and could be jealous at the same moment and such.

Well what XDLord said was true Drew would have done something then nothing right? If Ash knew about this then maybe he try to acutually do something to stop this Harley fellow, because action speaks louder then words and well Drew from what I've seen of him is more of a talker and a bragger (Not bashing him just saying my personal opinon) while Ash is more of a person who would do more then just warn like try to stop Harley from his cheating ways and such.

XDLord
5th July 2005, 9:57 PM
Ash doesn't know much about May's contests and her rivals(except for Drew), so we can't count on him much, but if he knew, he would have done something, and in front of Harley like telling Harley to stop giving May bad advice, otherwise just tell May to ignore Harley. Drew is smarter then that, but him snooping around is probably because he suspected something, not jelousy.

CyberCubed
5th July 2005, 10:02 PM
Well...

....

...Ash certainly would have helped May if he knew Harley's scheme. Ash has shown himself to be very protective of May throughout all of Hoenn.

The only problem with Ash is that he doesn't involve himself with May's contests as much as he should. He's not a coordinator, but he should take a more active role in helping May prepare for her contests.

XDLord
5th July 2005, 10:15 PM
Well, neither does May help with Ash's gym battles/League battles. He gave a few tips near the beggining of the Hoenn series, but he probably belives that May can train on her own by now. Besides, during May's contest's, he's training.

Misty_Ketchum
5th July 2005, 10:22 PM
I personally don't support Advanceshipping I'm more of a Contestshipper because it does remind me of Pokeshipping. But yet Pokeshipping is really different from Contestshipping in many ways. Like Pokemon the first movie,
it really made Pokeshipping a reality. If you hear the commentary in the DVD
the producer says and I quote:
" We made Misty like Ash and vice versa"
Well it's close but that's not the point here. This just proves that Advanceshipping and possibly Contestshipping are probably one sided(don't hurt me!)
I support Contestshipping because it's really cute when it comes to it. I mean the fighting, blushin', and the paranoia(ahem Drew) really makes it look like they like each other. Like I said I personally don't support Advanceshipping because of one thing:
If Ash really did like May in that way wouldn't he be jealous of Sid(Destiny Deoxys) like he was with Rudy and Danny? That made me wonder.
But hey were all different we can't control others on what to do.All I know is this debate will never end.

CyberCubed
5th July 2005, 10:36 PM
Well, neither does May help with Ash's gym battles/League battles. .

That's because May was a newbie to Pokemon, she didn't know anything. May the student giving advice to Ash the mentor would make no sense.

I actually think that during one of Ash's GYM matches, I think the Petalburg one, that May yelled out "Ash switch your Pikachu!" and then Brock advised against it, which resulted in May covering her mouth because she gave bad advice. :p

Ash brought May under his wing, but he should help her more with her training. He even went as far as blaming himself for May losing her first contest.

Ash obviously deeply cares for May and we can clearly see May looks up to him, and Ash definitely would have done something if he knew what Harley was up to.


If Ash really did like May in that way wouldn't he be jealous of Sid(Destiny Deoxys) like he was with Rudy and Danny? That made me wonder.

I hate to bring this up here, but it needs to be said.

Ash was NEVER jealous of Danny OR Rudy. The reason Ash was angry at Danny was because he wouldn't challenge him to a battle, and just spent his time talking to Misty.

Likewise, Ash didn't even know that Rudy liked Misty. At the end of that episode as Rudy hands Ash his badge, Rudy says "You're a lucky guy Ash."

Ash replies, "Lucky, about what?"

Rudy says "You'll find out someday Ash"

::Ash starts gawking at him cluelessly::

Ash had no idea Rudy liked Misty, so he wasn't jealous of him at all.

Better luck next time.

*Twilight Night*
5th July 2005, 10:53 PM
Besides, Sid had the crush on May, and May revolted. Why would I be jealous if the someone that I like rejected that somebody, hilarious too? XD

Encyclopika
6th July 2005, 12:57 AM
But wouldn't Ash know something was up with Harley? I mean, he wa there, unlike Drew, and he saw that Harley had tricked and done mean things to May the first time around...why wouldn't he say something against trusting Harley? He had all the reason to. But no. Instead, Drew, who wasn't there the first time, saw the problem, and did his best to stop it as soon as he found out for sure Harley was a cheat. Don't you think Ash should have taken that action sooner? He didn't, he let May fall. If not for Drew, Harley probably would have kept on the acting, saying Skitty becoming confused was not what he expected and the whole gang would have believed him.

Wes
6th July 2005, 3:13 AM
He's really really...dim at the right moments?

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 3:26 AM
Well if Drew doesn't come back to the show, or May doesn't leaves the gang, then the Contestshipping idea is dead for the moment.

And Drew just appeared like 12 or 10 episodes and the Pokeshippers liked it when he just appeared in 3 or 2 chapters because MANY of them thought at begining use it to get advancedshipping out of the way, but with the time some started to see the cuteness in contestshipping, but that shipping is kind of ilogical, i mean Drew is annoying and always bothers May, like i said before, he can have the crush but May doesn't thinks the same.

WindyNight
6th July 2005, 3:36 AM
Well see, there are Pokemon Contests in the Kanto Region now which means there is a high chance for Drew to return..It will be better to stick with the rival May has already, then replacing Drew with a new rival...I just hope the writer won't do that..

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 3:43 AM
Maybe there can be, but Ash is heading to the Battle frontier, maybe on the D/P series will be Pokemon Contests but maybe other guy in case of Drew will appear or maybe will be just for May to recolect enough Ribbons and challenge the Toppest coordinator of the region (like Ash in the Orange Islands) with no rival

WindyNight
6th July 2005, 3:48 AM
True, that might happen..But it would be boring without any rivals to get in the way..May hasn't defeated Drew yet..Even if Drew is gonna disappear forever..It would be better for that to happen after May has defeated him..
Even if there is no rival and May collects all the ribbons and goes to the Grand Festival..Drew might appear there as well, since he is a great Pokemon Coordinator..So yea, there are many different possibilities...

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 3:54 AM
True, still May needs more experience, maybe Drew can come back and face her again but this time May wins, but who knows, maybe there will be more rivals.

And for advancedshipping, Ash asked May to come to the battle frontier (not so shippy) and both are having the same pokes (Bulbasaur and Squirtle) and as Max said in a situation: "The Pokemon act like his trainers" And their Bulbasaur seems to be very good friends the first time they met, and May left her bulbasaur in Oak's, the pokemon can act like the trainers, wow this is getting interesting.

WindyNight
6th July 2005, 4:02 AM
One rival is enough, IMO..Drew is a great rival for May..^^
VineShipping is okay...Although I am not a AdvanceShipper, but I have to admit that Ash and May's Bulbasaur get alone very well..And they like each other a lot too..
Their trainers can act like them, but then again..It would turn out to be AdvanceShipping..o_0 But since they are in the Oak's lab, Ash and May might not see them for awhile..

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 4:06 AM
I prefer that more rivals would be cool ^^ (i'm the guy with more rivals in my classroom) so Ash haves many rivals, why not May? That would make more interesting this stuff

WindyNight
6th July 2005, 4:13 AM
Ash has many rivals? His real rival is actually only Gary..But if you count the others, I don't know, maybe Harrison and Masamune, then yea, he has more than one..
More rivals thingy sometimes can get very confusing, IMO..I just hope May would only be rival with Drew and nobody else...

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 4:18 AM
well he had more than that, he had Ritchie, Tetsuya, Casey (maybe).

Whatever that's right many rivals can be confused LOL, but like i said, it will make more interesting the final pairing, for example more pairings for May= more interesting the final decision. Equal goes to Ash but he haves many ships... let's count: 1,2,3,4... whoa! *thud* whatever it will make more interesting ^^

WindyNight
6th July 2005, 4:26 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention those...
More rivals can make it more interesting, but there would be a time when it gets all confused...But then again, it would make the trainer/coordiantor more determined to beat every one of them...
Ash has many ships, and so has May...^^

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 4:31 AM
*rolling eyes* i don't find an end to Ash's ships! *shakes head* well May ships... that should bve easy 1,2,3,4... ahh! not again! *thuds*

Anyway the only stuff is that Drew has been "taken" as a main character because he's a rival for May, but he appears in a few episodes. Same goes to Masamune and Tetsuya, well Gary and Ritchie are Main characters because they appeared in important stuff like in an special or in more chapters than Drew (well Gary was the one).

Ash is the only guy that worries about May (well Max too but what do you expected? He's May young bro!) Brock doesn't get so worried about her than Ash

WindyNight
6th July 2005, 4:37 AM
Drew cares about May too...There are hints of that in some contest episodes...
Max, well duh! They are siblings..
Ash, maybe sometimes...Considering the fact that they travel together...
Drew appeared in the Grand Festival episodes...And the GF episodes are pretty important, IMO...But it doesn't really matter...

Transducer
6th July 2005, 4:37 AM
You know one funny thing I've noticed? It's that the girls who have a crush on Ash has the letter "M" in the beginning ;)

Example: Misty, May, Melody, and Macey.

This has nothing to do with the debate or anything. Just I thought it was fun to point this out. But then again, I think others have noticed this already :p

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 4:42 AM
XD nice one trans! well Before the GF gets explanation, the contestshippers tought that it would be very contestshippy but in fact it wasn't.

Well Drew is worried about May is true but Ash is even more worried about her, remember when she loses a contest? Ash tries to console May.

xsweet_peax
6th July 2005, 4:59 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag123group.jpg

May is looking at Ash because her face and body direction is pointed at him. Caroline is standing behind Ash and May. May's face and body are pointed toward Ash, she's not looking over her shoulder at her mother.

Thus, May would have to either:

A) Completely turn around to face her mother

or

B) Tilt her head back to see what her mother was saying.

OK, before Ash, May's mom, Brock and Max arrived, May was staring out at Drew walking away. So, her body is pointed towards the direction where Drew was heading off to. Then, Ash popped up and stuck his ice cream in May's face. He came out of no where and stood where Drew was walking off. So, he blocked her view of Drew and stood at the same place that Drew was walking away from.

If you hadn't noticed, May's body position is the exact same as when she was at the beach alone. She barely moved an inch from when Drew left to when the others arrived. So, if she didn't move, then her direction is still pointed towards Drew and that's where Ash stood next. That means, that of course May's body would be pointed towards Ash. However, that doesn't mean that she was looking at him cause her body was pointed towards him. It means that it was pointed towards Ash cause it was at the direction of where Drew was at. It's the eyes that says it all. Now, her body didn't move much and her face didn't either. It was her eyes that moved from person to person. When she was looking back at Drew, she looked straight ahead and then her mom came up and told her how amazing her friend was. May's neck didn't tilt over to look at her mom but her eyes did. It moved from being straight ahead towards Drew to the side towards her mom. She can still see her mom from the corner of her eye. Now, I'm not sure about Ash. That boy can be looking at May or Caroline...it wouldn't make a difference.


I hate to bring this up here, but it needs to be said.

Ash was NEVER jealous of Danny OR Rudy. The reason Ash was angry at Danny was because he wouldn't challenge him to a battle, and just spent his time talking to Misty.

Likewise, Ash didn't even know that Rudy liked Misty. At the end of that episode as Rudy hands Ash his badge, Rudy says "You're a lucky guy Ash."

Ash replies, "Lucky, about what?"

Rudy says "You'll find out someday Ash"

::Ash starts gawking at him cluelessly::

Ash had no idea Rudy liked Misty, so he wasn't jealous of him at all.

Better luck next time.

Ok, I don't know why you keep using that excuse that Ash wasn't jealous of the people that crushes on Misty. He SO was.

For Danny, not every scene showed Danny going ga-ga over Misty and not paying attention to his opponent. Heck, Ash didn't even KNOW that Danny was the person he had to beat until after he got up the mountain. He thought that Danny was another challenger just like him throughout practically half the episode or so. You can't use the excuse that Danny ignored Ash cause he barely did anything with Misty at all. The only real thing was praising her at the beginning and that was it. After that, MISTY was the one that started flirting and talking to Danny and Ash DID NOT take it too well. I mean, she was the one that told Danny to be careful climbing up the mountain and didn't say anything to Ash. So, that made him react with the phrase "Hmph, what's she worried about HIM for...?" and forgot to concentrate on the mountain, which made him painfully fall down the mountain. Almost every scene was of HER getting attached to DANNY and not the other way around. Danny was being a gym leader and helped Ash as well as battling Ash. He barely did anything with Misty. Like that scene when Misty offered if he wanted to share her blanket...he refused and said he was used to the cold. If he wanted Misty, he would have gladly went in that blanket with her =]. But he didn't, like I said, he barely did anything with Misty but gave her a comment on her beauty at the beginning. So, it's Ash that reacted towards Misty's....kindness towards Danny. If that's not jealousy to you...then whatever floats your boat.

Now, Rudy. You honestly can't think that Ash doesn't know that Rudy liked her after all those flowers...him taking her hand and DANCING with her in front of EVERYBODY after meeting her like I dont know...2 minutes ago. I know that he's dense but he isnt THAT dense. Give him some credit. It's painfully OBVIOUS that Rudy liked Misty.

Now, that scene where Rudy tells Ash that he is a lucky guy and Ash has no idea what he is talking about... Ok, this is it. We all know that Ash is dense. That's one thing. That was the reason why he didn't know what Rudy was talking about. However, the REASON why Rudy told Ash he is lucky is because Misty likes Ash and CHOSE Ash instead of Rudy. Now, Ash doesn't know that. He doesn't know that Misty likes him and he DOES NOT have a clue that Rudy asked Misty to stay with him. Tracey and Ash were left in the dark when it came to that subject cause I think that all they knew was that Rudy liked Misty. I'm not even sure if Misty told them what happened and what Rudy asked her when they left. With that, Ash doesn't know that Rudy offered Misty a place with him. So, of course he wouldn't know anything about Misty choosing him over Rudy.

However, this has nothing to do with Contestshipping or Advanceshipping. I just had to make it clear that Ash WAS jealous. The only thing he didn't seem jealous of to me was with May. Now, I know some of you are gonna say that he has no reason to be jealous cause May doesn't even like Sid and Harley is just SO out there. All I have to say is that the producers didnt even bother to have him blink an eyelash when Sid was practically throwing himself at May and Harley...well, he's just grabbing her and sweet talking her. They didn't even bother showing his expression or reaction. He just continued on with his business and didn't even turn his head to see whats up with May and the two guys. I mean, usually, when someone was hitting on Misty or saying that she was pretty...he would usually go "WAHHHHH?!" and add in that shock expression. With May, he seriously didn't do anything. He just STOOD there with Harley and with Sid, he wasn't even shown so we couldn't see his expression. Obviously, there probably wasn't even an expression if it wasn't important enough to be shown.


XD nice one trans! well Before the GF gets explanation, the contestshippers tought that it would be very contestshippy but in fact it wasn't.
Well Drew is worried about May is true but Ash is even more worried about her, remember when she loses a contest? Ash tries to console May.

What are you talking about? The GF WAS shippy. I thought so and so did practically everyone in the Contestshipping Thread. We all thought it was shippy when it was out and when it got an explanation, it was still shippy to us. Also, some people didn't trust the guide all that much either like some already stated.

Yeah, of course Ash would console May. I would be surprised if he didn't. I mean, he is her friend, her teacher, the person that "took her under his wings". So, he felt like he had to help her since she just started out like he did back then. She is going through the same thing he was so it's obvious he should help her. I mean, he had Misty and Brock help him when he was just starting out so he should be the one to help people that need him since they are just starting out.

Man, he has been with her for FAR longer than Drew has and know a lot more about May. She practically looks up to him. So, of course Ash would be more worried about May since he knows her much more than Drew does. Also, Drew isn't the type to go out and worry like heck about someone. I pretty much see him being jealous of Harley and not just worrying about her but its your opinion so whatever...

So, that's my opinion on this whole thing. Somehow, I get the feeling that someone will find a way to counter it using something that will just make me go "omg..." Whoo, that's a lot of talking/writing. Had to get it out of the way though...

Kiori
6th July 2005, 9:21 AM
Ash was NEVER jealous of Danny OR Rudy.

According to MOST Shippers in general, being angry in an exaggerated way with "who is he anyway!?", not to mention that he constantly kept arguing with Misty for who knows why there was a need for it. Plus He was pretty ticked off (screw the censored word dectector... *kicks it*) off when (or before) Misty went off to Danny and said "Oh, but I like the more mature...intellectual type!" Ehh... sounds like a hint from Ash's side on that episode to me. lol


The reason Ash was angry at Danny was because he wouldn't challenge him to a battle

I thought Ash was usually the one that challenge the trainers, not the other way around, unless the trainer is hyper and wants to battle.


Ash had no idea Rudy liked Misty, so he wasn't jealous of him at all.

So why did he accidentally took out Charizard when he knew that he couldn't handle Charizard yet? Plus, he should already know which pokeballs contained who and at the place that he placed on his belt. (For example, that Kanto episode of the Island of the Giant Pokemon)

Now after I sort that out... and being off topic, 'cause I felt like I need to point something out... I think I need to get on topic again. <.<;;;


Exactly, but if he knew Harley hated May, he would have done one the two following things:

1) Kick Harley around(Contestshippy)

2) Ignore Harley (Neutral)

He did kick Harley around, by telling Haruka that Harley's been tricking her all those times. lol Harley didn't want Haruka to find out that he's lying, but since he's (Shuu) already found out about him (Harley), well, what the heck. No need to make one of the characters more confused coz they have restricted timing.


Ash certainly would have helped May if he knew Harley's scheme.

But wasn't he there when they all met Harley and was also there during Haruka's match with Harley? I thought the others including Ash were there to watch it. So why couldn't he get it before Shuu did? After all, he got more of the advantage than Shuu at gathering the clues in the first place. With Haruka... she's already into Harley's charms, so you can count her out. And besides, she's usually nice to people who're nice to her, so that's another reason to give.

And you can take another look at Encyclopika's post, 'cause mine is similar to hers. lol


And Drew just appeared like 12 or 10 episodes and the Pokeshippers liked it when he just appeared in 3 or 2 chapters because MANY of them thought at begining use it to get advancedshipping out of the way,

And how come I don't see as many hints as Contestshipping then? Sure May and Ash have been in the same journey as the others for so long, and I've never had seen a hint to... let's go up to the Hoenn League. Ehh... Even though Shuu had appear for about 10... 12 episodes or so, I saw quite a lot of hints just from those total amount of episodes. Now, I'm not saying that there is a hint in every single episode. But there are some cute scenes and hints along the way before we go up into the big GF episodes, where most contestshippers consider it has perhaps the biggest contestshippy episodes out of all those 10...12 episodes.


i mean Drew is annoying and always bothers May,

You talking Drew or Shuu? :p 'Cause imo, Drew is annoying (hates Drew 'cause of his voice), BUT Shuu is like... awesome~ ;D~ Hence, my sig. *points*


"The Pokemon act like his trainers"

Do I have to bring up the Gloom x Bulbasaur? ~_~ 'Cause if that quote is to be real, then like, Ash and that Gloom trainer should've married by now. :p So does Ash x Liza (or was it Lisa? o_O Can't exactly remember Charla's trainer's name), then you have Richie x Ash, because of Sparky and Pikachu, etc. Then you also have Casey x Ash, 'cause of Chikorita and Pikachu. Ay... wouldn't that be a lot of ships Ash has to be in if that quote was true? lol I'd think so. :p


well Before the GF gets explanation, the contestshippers tought that it would be very contestshippy but in fact it wasn't.

Yet when I watched it, it went beyond my expectations and I'm a Contestshipper? lol If you're reading the SPPf guide, I'd suggest for you to wait for the Pokemonopolis or w/e the guide that Jo recommend (I'm sure they're here somewhere in the thread) OR watch the episode with a clear head, which means, not to be biased already before and during the GF episodes.


What are you talking about? The GF WAS shippy. I thought so and so did practically everyone in the Contestshipping Thread. We all thought it was shippy when it was out and when it got an explanation, it was still shippy to us. Also, some people didn't trust the guide all that much either like some already stated.

Eheheheheh... one of those "some people" is me. *nervous laugh* Whoa, did I just say that? ^^;;

Also, not to mention that there was panic for some people in the Advanceshipping thread IIRC. Actually the GF trilogy was the start of when the Advanceshippers officially considered Contestshipping is their major rival. Well, some to say the least.


So, that's my opinion on this whole thing. Somehow, I get the feeling that someone will find a way to counter it using something that will just make me go "omg..." Whoo, that's a lot of talking/writing. Had to get it out of the way though...

Whoa xsweet_peax. XD!!! That's one constructive argument! (Not complaining or anything; just that it's such a very thoughtful post! lol Not mocking, too btw. :p) Still, that's a VERY long post. Worth the time for writing and for the people to read it, too, I would think. :p

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 5:28 PM
well i disagree with that (the stuff that Ash was jelous about Danny),in that moment Ash was young (11 years i think) and every kid at that age thinks that is the best and he only was angry, not jelous, because Misty was saying that Danny was a nice man, not like Ash. Ash was angry by that.

And about the reason of why there are too many contestshippers is because just think, if all the Pokeshippers were hoennshippers there would be like just 2 or 3 contestshippers

xsweet_peax
6th July 2005, 6:28 PM
Whoa xsweet_peax. XD!!! That's one constructive argument! (Not complaining or anything; just that it's such a very thoughtful post! lol Not mocking, too btw. :p) Still, that's a VERY long post. Worth the time for writing and for the people to read it, too, I would think. :p

ahahahah. Thank you. It was long but it's all good... =]


well i disagree with that (the stuff that Ash was jelous about Danny),in that moment Ash was young (11 years i think) and every kid at that age thinks that is the best and he only was angry, not jelous, because Misty was saying that Danny was a nice man, not like Ash. Ash was angry by that.

OK, if you disagree with it, then it's your opinion. I'm not gonna fight with you about it but I am going to give my opinion though. First of all, I don't remember Misty ever saying that Danny was a nice man and not Ash. I do remember her saying that she goes for people who are MATURE and that it's something Ash is not. If you want to say that the way Ash reacted was just him being angry and not jealous, then ok...if you want to believe that, fine by me. However, there are plenty of scenes all over the episode that you can't say it was just him being jealous. He reacted way too personally to just be angry. Most of the scenes after that didn't even include Misty saying something sweet about Danny and not Ash so he has no reason to be upset. The scenes were of Misty hanging all over Danny and not Ash, that made him jealous and if you say something like he was just angry...then omg o_O...no comment. I mean, even a bunch of Advanceshippers admitted that that episode was shippy. =]


And about the reason of why there are too many contestshippers is because just think, if all the Pokeshippers were hoennshippers there would be like just 2 or 3 contestshippers
Now, I KNOW a lot of people think that Pokeshippers went to Contestshipping just because they were scared about Advanceshipping and saw that Contestshipping would be a threat but no. A lot of us actually saw something in Contestshipping. So, many people in the Contestshipping Thread like Contestshipping cause it's cute...not cause of Advanceshippers. Even if some of us are Pokeshipping doesn't mean we went to Contestshipping to get rid of Advanceshipping. I mean, some people might have started out that way but they really do start to like Contestshipping or some just liked Contestshipping from the start. Now, if Pokeshippers really did go to Contestshipping cause of Advanceshipping...then why would they go to Contestshipping and not Hoennshipping? Hoennshipping was there before Contestshipping...why go to Contestshipping and not Hoennshipping? The reason? Cause Contestshipping is just plain cute to us. We liked it and that's why we went to it. A lot of people didn't go to Contestshipping just because they were afraid of Advanceshippers.

I was one of those people that always liked Pokeshipping and when Advanceshipping came out..I was scared but I never went to Hoennshipping to make myself feel better. I stayed still and watched Advanceshipping move along until finally, Drew appeared and I was introduced to Contestshipping. Then, from first glance, I saw how cute they are and I'm a sucker for those love/hate relationship. That was the reason why I went for Contestshipping...it had nothing to do with Advanceshipping. A lot of the people at the Contestshipping Thread started out the same way. They fell for Contestshipping...not because they saw a rival for Advanceshipping and ran towards it.

I'm not saying that NO Pokeshippers went towards Contestshipping cause of Advanceshipping...just that most of them didn't. I know that some Pokeshippers ran towards Contestshipping after seeing Advanceshipping but most of us didn't do that. However, most of the Pokeshippers that did go towards Contestshipping cause of Advanceshipping eventually saw how cute Contestshipping is and started to like it for itself.

CyberCubed
6th July 2005, 6:53 PM
Wow, Kiori, you should watch "Misty meets her Match" again.

Ash certainly did not choose Charizard because he was jealous of Rudy. He clearly did it by mistake.

Ash also did nothing as Rudy took Misty by the hands and danced with her. If Ash was jealous, howcome he didn't run in between them and stop them from dancing?

He had no idea Rudy even wanted Misty to stay with him. Ash wasn't even there when Rudy proposed to Misty.

All that episode did was confirm that Misty chose Ash over Rudy. On Ash's side however, he had no real idea that he almost lost Misty to someone else.

Please, go watch that episode again instead of reciting it from memory.


Now, if Pokeshippers really did go to Contestshipping cause of Advanceshipping...then why would they go to Contestshipping and not Hoennshipping? Hoennshipping was there before Contestshipping...why go to Contestshipping and not Hoennshipping? The reason? Cause Contestshipping is just plain cute to us. We liked it and that's why we went to it. A lot of people didn't go to Contestshipping just because they were afraid of Advanceshippers.

Uh...isn't it obvious why Pokeshippers didn't go to Hoennshipping? Hello?

It's because Brendan hasn't even been introduced in the series! Some people only like shippings of characters they actually SEE in the series.

If Brendan was actually formally introduced in the series as Ash's rival or something, you can bet that most Pokeshippers would have went to Hoennshipping as well, and not just Contestshipping.

But since Brendan has never met Ash/May, that ship doesn't get much support anime-wise because he's not even in the show!

It's clearly obvious why Pokeshippers aren't also Hoennshippers, if Brendan hasn't even been in the show, how can Pokeshippers hope that Brendan would "keep May away from Ash"?

That's why they went to Contestshipping. Drew is actually in the show, unlike Brendan. Thus some Pokeshippers decided, "Hey! If May goes with Drew than Ash will be free for Misty."

There are a ton of people who like Contestshipping regardless of Pokeshipping.

But there are also a ton of Pokeshippers who only like Contestshipping because it "keeps May away from Ash."

And I've seen Pokeshippers say that right in the thread, so there's no denying that there are people like that.

But I disgress, Ash and May will most likely end up together since they're both co-stars, and Misty and Drew are reocurring minor characters. Most shows put their male and female lead together, and since May has even been catching Ash's old starters, I can see the direction the writers are heading in.

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 7:21 PM
right, well i'm kind of Pokeshipper/Hoennshipper because i can't see Drew and May as a couple, the Advancedshipping idea goes up and contestshipping idea goes down while Drew is out, if he doesn't appear in many episodes then the idea of contestshipping is dead

intergalactic platypus
6th July 2005, 7:23 PM
actually, i see hoennshipping as based on the manga cause in the manga ruby and sapphire travel together. i know may and sapphire are quite different, but theyre the same image so thats good enough for me

Red-Kun
6th July 2005, 7:30 PM
err... that's franticshipping... and i mentioned: HOENNSHIPPING not FRANTICSHIPPING (Hoennshipping is based on games and maybe on anime) well Sapphire is totaly different to May is true, she's strong, wild, fast, etc. But can we please get back to the topic?

cold_katanagirl
6th July 2005, 9:52 PM
Oh hey everyone. Er, I'm on the computer for a little bit. Obviously. o.0;

What the fack are you guys talking about now? Ash being jealous of Rudy/Danny? What?

Danny, I don't even remember. I can see Ash being jealous of him a little, but I only saw like half of the episode. But for Ash being jealous, he didn't do all that much.

I know a ton of people that thought Ash wasn't jealous of Rudy, and I know a ton of people who think he was. Me, I wasn't, because he would have done way more if he were. But I don't want to get into that because that's now what we're talking about. =/


.... What's going on?

Kiori
6th July 2005, 10:13 PM
Wow, Kiori, you should watch "Misty meets her Match" again.

Ash certainly did not choose Charizard because he was jealous of Rudy. He clearly did it by mistake.

Right. Either I made a mistake in my last post by saying "He accidentally took out Charizard" or your eyesight is terribly bad. Rather than me rewatching that episode again, I'd suggest you to read the others' posts and mine carefully next time, or get better glasses.


If Ash was jealous, howcome he didn't run in between them and stop them from dancing?

When did I ever mentioned that, really? I do admit that he wasn't quite as jealous with Rudy as he is with Danny, but did I ever pointed this part of the argument in my post? Again, you have not read my post carefully. Of course he didn't run in between them, but he did break them off, similar to the Manga version. With that shout of "Me? You're the one who's being rude!" did stop the dance, somewhat. And I don't mean that as a hint. It can be a hint in the way a person views it.


All that episode did was confirm that Misty chose Ash over Rudy. On Ash's side however, he had no real idea that he almost lost Misty to someone else.

Of course. Ash is not too bright when it comes to romances, so if his best friend is staying with him and he won his Gym Badge, then that's that. You can't expect Ash to know that he'll lose Misty if he were to lose coz he never actually had a thought about it in the first place. Rudy asked Misty if she would marry him (in the Japanese version) privately. Meaning, Ash and Tracey and Pikachu wouldn't have known about it. Togepi? Why wouldn't Togepi tell Pikachu who probably would've told Ash? Well, Togepi is a baby pokemon that spent the time dancing with Mahri, so of course it might not have a clear memory, or it was too busy dancing with Mahri to even notice.


Please, go watch that episode again instead of reciting it from memory.

Please get better glasses so you can read my posts and the others' carefully. ^_^

Now...


Uh...isn't it obvious why Pokeshippers didn't go to Hoennshipping? Hello?

It's because Brendan hasn't even been introduced in the series! Some people only like shippings of characters they actually SEE in the series.

Even if he were to be introduced into the series before Shuu did, it wouldn't have been a right-off event where I'll just "OOOH! Brendan x May! *Hearts!*" Sure I did support Contestshipping quite randomly at the start and was hoping for cute scenes and little hints along the way, but if they had not had that much hints from the total of those ten or twelve episodes, maybe I wouldn't have supported it. Plus, they look cute with each other, so either way, I'll still be supporting Contestshipping.


It's clearly obvious why Pokeshippers aren't also Hoennshippers, if Brendan hasn't even been in the show, how can Pokeshippers hope that Brendan would "keep May away from Ash"?

Hate to tell you the truth but some Pokeshippers do loath Contestshipping. They loath it, or they loath it, because they're already supported Hoennshipping, or they hate Drew's attitude (His voice is still...annoying), or they just hate Contestshipping. Some Pokeshippers don't even support Contestshipping, even though they don't loath it. Infact, there are Advanceshippers too that supports Contestshipping somewhat, so yeah. Maybe not as much, but they're still supporting. Then you also got some Hoennshippers supporting Contestshipping, etc.


since May has even been catching Ash's old starters, I can see the direction the writers are heading in.

Brother/sister relationship perhaps? :p They're more like siblings, so does their Bulbasaurs to each other, imo. Or, probably cousins? ehh... That's just my opinion.

CyberCubed
6th July 2005, 10:26 PM
When did I ever mentioned that, really? I do admit that he wasn't quite as jealous with Rudy as he is with Danny, but did I ever pointed this part of the argument in my post? Again, you have not read my post carefully. Of course he didn't run in between them, but he did break them off, similar to the Manga version. With that shout of "Me? You're the one who's being rude!" did stop the dance, somewhat. And I don't mean that as a hint. It can be a hint in the way a person views it.

Who said I was talking about you Kiori? I was responding to both you and xxsweetpeaxx when talking about Rudy.



Of course. Ash is not too bright when it comes to romances, so if his best friend is staying with him and he won his Gym Badge, then that's that. You can't expect Ash to know that he'll lose Misty if he were to lose coz he never actually had a thought about it in the first place. Rudy asked Misty if she would marry him (in the Japanese version) privately. Meaning, Ash and Tracey and Pikachu wouldn't have known about it. Togepi? Why wouldn't Togepi tell Pikachu who probably would've told Ash? Well, Togepi is a baby pokemon that spent the time dancing with Mahri, so of course it might not have a clear memory, or it was too busy dancing with Mahri to even notice.

I just said above Ash had no idea that Rudy proposed to Misty. I said Ash didn't know that he almost lost Misty to someone else.

You should take your own advice, maybe you need some of those glasses too eh? ;)


Even if he were to be introduced into the series before Shuu did, it wouldn't have been a right-off event where I'll just "OOOH! Brendan x May! *Hearts!*"

There are Pokeshippers who did exactly that when Drew first appeared. I'm sure they would have done the same for Brendan.


Sure I did support Contestshipping quite randomly at the start and was hoping for cute scenes and little hints along the way, but if they had not had that much hints from the total of those ten or twelve episodes, maybe I wouldn't have supported it.

That doesn't sound like the same thing you were saying in your first post in the Contestshipping thread. You liked them as a pair regardless of hints at first.


Hate to tell you the truth but some Pokeshippers do loath Contestshipping. They loath it, or they loath it, because they're already supported Hoennshipping, or they hate Drew's attitude (His voice is still...annoying), or they just hate Contestshipping. Some Pokeshippers don't even support Contestshipping, even though they don't loath it.

"SOME" Pokeshippers turned to Contestshipping as a defense mechanism. I didn't say all. I'm well aware that people like Contestshipping and couldn't care less about Pokeshipping.


Brother/sister relationship perhaps? :p They're more like siblings, so does their Bulbasaurs to each other, imo. Or, probably cousins? ehh... That's just my opinion.

People use the brother/sister relationship as an excuse that they can't possibly be paired up together. People even use the brother/sister relationship when talking about Ash/Misty. I don't accept that, since people just say that to try and wiggle their way out of accepting any possible hints between Ash and May.

Kiori
6th July 2005, 10:47 PM
Who said I was talking about you Kiori? I was responding to both you and xxsweetpeaxx when talking about Rudy.

I'm sorry, but did you ever state it was for xsweet_peax instead of me? I don't think so. It's already safe to assume that you were talking to me instead of xsweet_peax if you didn't mention her anywhere in that post.

Sure it might get annoying to state who're you talking to, but wouldn't it be best to state who you're talking to to stop assumptions and/or confusions? I'd think so.


You should take your own advice, maybe you need some of those glasses too eh? ;)

Might I add to pay close attention on how people might view your post, too? :P


There are Pokeshippers who did exactly that when Drew first appeared. I'm sure they would have done the same for Brendan.

They did that, but I know some people who'll support any other shipping besides Advanceshipping because of that reason, regardless that they're NOT Pokeshippers, 'cause they loath it. lol


That doesn't sound like the same thing you were saying in your first post in the Contestshipping thread. You liked them as a pair regardless of hints at first.

It doesn't sound like the same thing I was saying in the first post of the Contestshipping thread, I guess, but I did look for little hints and cute scenes. I wasn't really aware of its popularity, but it's quite popular in Japan, so is Shuu. I only thought that perhaps Shuu and Haruka might work out and might as well wait for future episodes where they'll have Shuu in it.


"SOME" Pokeshippers turned to Contestshipping as a defense mechanism. I didn't say all. I'm well aware that people like Contestshipping and couldn't care less about Pokeshipping.

I know you didn't say all. lol That's why I didn't state that you said "all". I was just pointing out something.


People use the brother/sister relationship as an excuse that they can't possibly be paired up together. People even use the brother/sister relationship when talking about Ash/Misty. I don't accept that, since people just say that to try and wiggle their way out of accepting any possible hints between Ash and May.

I, for one, don't say that they have a brother/sister relationship as an excuse. I see it like that between May and Ash, and that's it. Impov, the feeling I get between Ash and May is a sibling relationship. It's kind of like a little sister who idolizes her brother. There are such anime and mangas that has a little sister who idolizes/looks-up to her older brother. Just because I think Ash and May has a brother/sister relationship, doesn't mean that I'll be biased to all the possible hints Advanceshipping has. Besides, what good does that gonna do? If I'll be biased and not look at all the points of the hints, and just state "Nooo! That is not a hint!111!!!" then yeah, I'm biased. But since I observe and elaborate the hint, it'll end up as a hint or not, in my point of view. Besides, I take a look at the hints from other anime and manga to compare the hints too, since they're usually similar.

XDLord
6th July 2005, 11:44 PM
I, for one, don't say that they have a brother/sister relationship as an excuse. I see it like that between May and Ash, and that's it. Impov, the feeling I get between Ash and May is a sibling relationship. It's kind of like a little sister who idolizes her brother. There are such anime and mangas that has a little sister who idolizes/looks-up to her older brother. Just because I think Ash and May has a brother/sister relationship, doesn't mean that I'll be biased to all the possible hints Advanceshipping has. Besides, what good does that gonna do? If I'll be biased and not look at all the points of the hints, and just state "Nooo! That is not a hint!111!!!" then yeah, I'm biased. But since I observe and elaborate the hint, it'll end up as a hint or not, in my point of view. Besides, I take a look at the hints from other anime and manga to compare the hints too, since they're usually similar.

Apart from the first few months of AG, the relationship was never this way. Once May learnt the basics of Pokemon, she didn't need Ash to help her. You might as well say that Drew/May had a brother/sister relationship, because May learned quite a bit from Drew, even though Drew was so arrogant.

CyberCubed
7th July 2005, 12:27 AM
Man where is Jo-Jo?

This thread hasn't been as fun without her. :/

Kiori
7th July 2005, 5:59 AM
Apart from the first few months of AG, the relationship was never this way. Once May learnt the basics of Pokemon, she didn't need Ash to help her. You might as well say that Drew/May had a brother/sister relationship, because May learned quite a bit from Drew, even though Drew was so arrogant.

Imo, Shuu/Haruka doesn't really seem to have a brother/sister relationship. I mean, they might once in a while, but to me, the way May and Ash interract with each other seems more like a brother/sister to me than Shuu/Haruka. Just because May learned quite a bit from Drew, doesn't mean that Drew acts like a brother to May. Otherwise, we'll have a bunch of canon couples that you can say have a brother/sister relationship than a couple relationship.

Oh and just to tell you, I don't mean Ash and May seems to have a brother/sister relationship because of May getting infos from Ash. They just seem to have that kind of relationship to me because of how they interract.


Man where is Jo-Jo?

She's currently in... I forgot where, but she'll be back around Friday, I think. :p

Kylie-chan
8th July 2005, 9:38 AM
I agree with Kiori, seriously, I mean, human nature makes you think that... yeah... I mean, they're rivals and stuff... there seems to be some opposites-attract thing in humans... >< And with Ash and May... I mean, not like there's a huuuuuuuuuge age difference, you do get the feeling they're just friends. She seems younger in soul than him, too. I think even if Contestshipping [note: I am a Contestshipper and not an Advanceshipper >>] was proved to be untrue, and there's evidence for every side I guess, it could happen.
With Ash and May... yeah... I get the impression she's like his little sister tagging along, and he has to look after her and teach her. That's sort of how I see he sees her.

Encyclopika
8th July 2005, 8:31 PM
Any caring Ash and May do for each other is just because of the friend factor...it's there and that's what friends are supposed to do...there's quite a huge difference between friend and crush...they're on opposite sides of a forked road. XD

CyberCubed
8th July 2005, 10:19 PM
Any caring Ash and May do for each other is just because of the friend factor...it's there and that's what friends are supposed to do...there's quite a huge difference between friend and crush...they're on opposite sides of a forked road. XD

Lol, that's just a common defense mechanism to say about opposing ships.

I'm sorry, but no. By that logic Pokeshipping can't work either since Ash and Misty are friends, and any caring they do for each other is just friendship too.

See how dumb that argument is? (LMAO, on another note I'm so happy that Pokeshippers got totally owned in the newest 3 eps, looks like Pokeshipping's grave has already been dug. I kind of figured the writers would phase out Pokeshipping in recent years, but not to THAT degree...wow...total ownage.)

Ash and May are good friends, but just because they comfort and console each other, it doesn't mean that they're not attracted to each other either.

And to bring this back to this debate thread, at least caring for each other deeply is a lot better than two people who constantly aggravate each other and get under each others skin.

cold_katanagirl
8th July 2005, 10:27 PM
Any caring Ash and May do for each other is just because of the friend factor...it's there and that's what friends are supposed to do...there's quite a huge difference between friend and crush...they're on opposite sides of a forked road. XDWow! So THAT'S why Drew was suspicious of Harley, because he was just being protective of his friend!

hyliansage
9th July 2005, 4:12 AM
Are we viewing Ash, May, and Drew as real people or anime characters? XD

Because, if we're viewing them as real people, arguing = bad. BUT if we're viewing them as anime characters, arguing = one of the more... popular (or so I think) types of romances. *nod*

Soooo... Ash/May = friends/protect (or as I like to view it... mentor/student) ship (Can't really count it as the other type of "friends" ship which is the "childhood friends" ship 'cause they're not childhood friends! XD Though the childhood friends romance seems to be quite common as well... Sometimes combined with the argue pairing... Though it's not as common. *nod* And I guess the "love at first sight" thing wouldn't apply either 'cause Pokemon just isn't that type of show...)
Drew/May = rival/argue ship

Right? XD

So... I have no idea why I just said that. XD I actually don't even know what I just said... Guess I just wanted to emphasize that pointless point or something... :D Ignore me and carry on!

Kylie-chan
9th July 2005, 9:29 AM
Well, when you think about it, both have *here she goes, changing her mind* qualities that could make them a ship - btw, ship = relationship... does it mean they're in love necessarily? - and those that... well, detract from that. O_o; Although I do still think May is a bit young mentally for Ash. I can't see him being attracted romantically to her.

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 3:15 PM
^ As far as I can tell the writers write May as if she's the same age as Ash. She doesn't really act like a real 10 year old should, the writers are probably ignoring their own canon ages.

Jo-Jo
9th July 2005, 4:33 PM
Eeeep, lots to reply to. ^^; Sorry if I go back over any old topics.

Re. Drew and Harley - I don't see how any other interpretation than jealousy explains the way Drew behaves during the Grand Festival. He was clearly bothered by May and Harley hanging around together, as can best be seen from this pic -

http://serebii.net/anime/pictures/houen/399/AG78.jpg

See how the animators used that shadow-on-the-face technique? They do that whenever they want to show that a character is upset about something. For instance, they drew Ash with it when Butterfree left, and when he thought Pikachu wanted to stay behind with its own kind in Pikachu's Goodbye. They've drawn Drew with it only once before, to my knowledge - when Roselia got beaten up in Disaster Of Disguise. I don't see why he'd look like that if he were only concerned about May's safety.

For that matter, I have no clue why he wouldn't make any attempt to warn May away from Harley, if he thought she was in danger. Up until the moment when he actually blows Harley's cover, he doesn't say a word to her about any suspicions he might have. He just skulks around nearby, watching them. The one time he does confront them, he starts talking about how Harley's advice to May on training sucks and contests are supposed to be competitive. Considering how quick he usually is to point out May's naivety, I fail to see why he'd sit on his hands this time around. Just look at Harley's first appearance in the first GF episode - after he's finished his gushing and walked away, Drew calls to Roselia, turns and leaves without saying goodbye to May. If he were suspicious of Harley's motives, wouldn't he have asked her a few questions about him at this point? Who is that guy, how do you know him, why was he apologising to you, what did he do, how do you know you can trust him, and so on? Drew is blunt; if he thinks May is about to do something stupid, he TELLS her. He doesn't coldly snub her like that.

And what about the time when May and Drew were sitting backstage together while Harley performed his appeals? That was a perfect opportunity for Drew to voice his mistrust of Harley, but he didn't even speak to May; he just sat there grinning when Harley's score wasn't as high as she'd hoped. Those are the actions of a jealous boy with a crush, not a concerned friend.

Re. the Ash/Misty/Danny debate - I thought it was painfully clear that Ash was jealous of Danny, but we shouldn't discuss it in here, because it's off-topic. Similarly, any debate about whether Pokeshippers just jumped on board the Contestship to get May out of the way is irrelevant to this debate (and a little insulting, btw). It makes no difference to the outcome of this series why any of us ship the way we do.


Ash is the only guy that worries about May (well Max too but what do you expected? He's May young bro!) Brock doesn't get so worried about her than Ash
Wha -? I can't begin to count all the things that are wrong with that. Of course Ash isn't the only guy who cares about May (and btw, lol at the implication that caring about a girl only counts if you're male and non-related to her). Brock has demonstrated many times that he cares about her, too, as have Max, Norman and Drew. Not to mention the various co-ordinators-of-the-day we've been introduced to.


You know one funny thing I've noticed? It's that the girls who have a crush on Ash has the letter "M" in the beginning

Example: Misty, May, Melody, and Macey.
XD I suppose Meowth fancies him too, huh?


XD nice one trans! well Before the GF gets explanation, the contestshippers tought that it would be very contestshippy but in fact it wasn't.
Um. No. We were all bowled over by the shippiness of the GF, as a matter of fact. None of us were expecting anything like it.


But I disgress, Ash and May will most likely end up together since they're both co-stars, and Misty and Drew are reocurring minor characters. Most shows put their male and female lead together, and since May has even been catching Ash's old starters, I can see the direction the writers are heading in.
Tell that to J. K. Rowling! She's said in interviews that the lead male and female of her Harry Potter series, Harry and Hermione, are "very platonic friends". I'm sure she'll want to correct this oversight before anyone gets the wrong idea. And let's not forget Pirates of the Caribbean - Elizabeth Swann ends up with Will Turner at the end of that film, but doubtless the writers will have her ditch him for Jack Sparrow in the sequels. Wouldn't do to have the heroine end up with someone who isn't the main character, after all. And then there's Digimon Tamers... the head writer said on his website that Jeri was Takato's love-interest, but I guess we'll just have to assume he changed his mind a few years down the line and ran off to snog Rika senseless.


People use the brother/sister relationship as an excuse that they can't possibly be paired up together. People even use the brother/sister relationship when talking about Ash/Misty. I don't accept that, since people just say that to try and wiggle their way out of accepting any possible hints between Ash and May.
People use brother/sister comparisons as a way to explain why they don't see a relationship as romantic. But I agree that it gets flung around too much. It can be a very good way to figure out if the writers intend romance between certain characters, though - just mentally replace them with two siblings and see if you still find their interactions shippy. With May-ships, that's incredibly simple to do, as you can just imagine Max in place of the other person.


Lol, that's just a common defense mechanism to say about opposing ships.
Is it so hard to believe that we just don't see automatic shippage from mere friendly acts?


I'm sorry, but no. By that logic Pokeshipping can't work either since Ash and Misty are friends, and any caring they do for each other is just friendship too.
Waitaminute, Encyclopika didn't say that at all. Nobody's saying that it's impossible for two friends to fall in love. We're saying that we shouldn't read shippiness into friendly interactions; only romantic ones.


And to bring this back to this debate thread, at least caring for each other deeply is a lot better than two people who constantly aggravate each other and get under each others skin.
Says who? Certainly not the legions of people who have written romances between characters who "constantly aggravate each other and get under each other's skin".

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 5:07 PM
Says who? Certainly not the legions of people who have written romances between characters who "constantly aggravate each other and get under each other's skin".

It doesn't seem to work out for Pokemon now does it?

Jo-Jo
9th July 2005, 5:32 PM
It doesn't seem to work out for Pokemon now does it?
*is puzzled* Not sure how you can say that given that there have been no resolved main-character ships so far. It's not as though two characters have ever gotten together and broken up because they fight too much.

cold_katanagirl
9th July 2005, 5:39 PM
If anyone took that friend thing seriously, it was sarcasm.

If this were real life, I'd say Drew's acts could be interpreted as friendshippy as well, seeing as I (and a ton of people I know) would probably act the same way with close friends (well, except the roses....).

HOWEVER.... This is an anime after all, and pokemon at that. Pokemon has no originality it seems, so them using a plot like this for romance seems likely. I have to go get more information about the Grand Festival episodes though, because I don't really know about them to be honest...

It's good being an Advanceshipper and Contestshipper. You win either way. Kind of annoying when people are attacking you to choose a side though. -_-

As for the "love - hate vs .... not love - hate" seems more like a personal choice to me. None is really "better" than the other. I know that sounds lame, but it's the truth. =/

I do tend to prefer couples that don't argue all that much when they're together, simply because I think they're more compatible. Of course, I do like some love - hate relationships (Miroku x Sango, Ron x Hermione, May x Drew, Yusuke x Keiko, and I'm starting to like Sheena x Zelos), I just prefer the other ones.

xsweet_peax
9th July 2005, 5:49 PM
It's because Brendan hasn't even been introduced in the series! Some people only like shippings of characters they actually SEE in the series.
Not really. If some people really did like Pokeshipping and doesn't want Advanceshipping to happen, then they would have went for any ship that goes against the ones they oppose. As long as the ships they don't like have rivals, it's good enough for them. Also, people play the games too. Surely some would see Ruby and Sapphire as an interesting couple and so would think of Haruka and Brendan as an interesting match.


It's clearly obvious why Pokeshippers aren't also Hoennshippers, if Brendan hasn't even been in the show, how can Pokeshippers hope that Brendan would "keep May away from Ash"?
That doesn't mean they still can't support the ship. If it's popular, who knows what could happen. I mean, Hoennshipping was out long before Contestshipping. Some didn't even know about Contestshipping at that time, but people still didn't support it. If they were Anti-Advanceshippers, then they woud still go for Hoennshipping just cause it's a rival for Advanceshipping. However, some of them didn't go for that ship, which I still believe is because they didn't find it as cute. They just stood around and watch Advanceshipping until they saw a ship that they thought was cute (Contestshipping).


There are a ton of people who like Contestshipping regardless of Pokeshipping.

But there are also a ton of Pokeshippers who only like Contestshipping because it "keeps May away from Ash."

And I've seen Pokeshippers say that right in the thread, so there's no denying that there are people like that.
That's what I said. I didn't say ALL Pokeshippers went for Contestshipping cause it was cute. I said that I know some who went for it because it "keeps May away from Ash" but also some who actually showed interest in the couple.


But I disgress, Ash and May will most likely end up together since they're both co-stars, and Misty and Drew are reocurring minor characters. Most shows put their male and female lead together, and since May has even been catching Ash's old starters, I can see the direction the writers are heading in.
Yeah, I admit that most main characters (or co-stars) end up together. That's how it's always been and that's probably how it's gonna be but Misty was once a main character. She used to be Ash's co-star. I still think she's a main character (along with Drew). Just cause they aren't in the show right now or as often doesn't mean they're not main characters. They have (or had) a purpose to the show and still show up now and then.

You can think that May and Ash will most likely end up together (it's your opinion after all) cause they are both main characters. However, you don't know what's going to happen. The writers could have something up their sleeves. About the writers giving May Ash's old starters, I don't know what's up with that. It could be to make her seem like Ash or it could be a hint... We'll just have to wait and see.


Who said I was talking about you Kiori? I was responding to both you and xxsweetpeaxx when talking about Rudy.
It's xsweet_peax (only two x's) or xspx XD


I'm sorry, but did you ever state it was for xsweet_peax instead of me? I don't think so. It's already safe to assume that you were talking to me instead of xsweet_peax if you didn't mention her anywhere in that post.

OKKK.... I'm guessing that message is for me XD. Well then, this was what you said Cybercubed...

"Ash certainly did not choose Charizard because he was jealous of Rudy. He clearly did it by mistake."
Maybe...maybe not. From what I remember, he didn't make that mistake out of no where. He was clearly ticked off when Rudy was sweet talking Misty in the back of the boat and that made him call out Charizard..cause he wasn't thinking and wanted to show them what he was made of. If Rudy wasn't handing out flowers to Misty on that boat, then Ash might have been calm and chose a Pokemon he can tame but he got mad and wasn't thinking, which led him to calling out Charizard. You see, when he was first on the boat, he didn't see Misty and Rudy talking in the back and seemed all confident. However, when he turned around and saw them, he got mad and called out Charizard, only to be yelled at by Tracey for doing that. After he called Charizard out, he noticed what he did and got nervous. So, he was fine and only made that mistake when he got mad (or jealous..)

"Ash also did nothing as Rudy took Misty by the hands and danced with her. If Ash was jealous, howcome he didn't run in between them and stop them from dancing?"
From the look on his face, he seemed pretty surprised and shock. I would be too if a total stranger all of a sudden took my crush's hand and started dancing with them out of no where...right in front of me. o_O

"He had no idea Rudy even wanted Misty to stay with him. Ash wasn't even there when Rudy proposed to Misty."
He wasn't suppose to know. Like Kiori said, they had that conversation privately. I don't think he would have taken it all too well if he did know though. I mean, his friend (crush..whatever) all of a sudden is leaving him and staying with a total stranger that they met a couple of days ago.

"All that episode did was confirm that Misty chose Ash over Rudy. On Ash's side however, he had no real idea that he almost lost Misty to someone else"
Yeah, the main part was Misty choosing Ash over Rudy. However, we did see Ash's reaction to Misty and Rudy a few times, which I believe was jealousy and I'm pretty sure you believe it was just anger or clueless Ash. You're right about the part that Ash had no idea about the proposal Rudy offered to Misty, which leaves us to our imagination of what we think will happen if he did indeed know....

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 6:22 PM
^ Eh, I wouldn't consider either Misty or Drew main characters.

Misty was a main character for the first 5 seasons, not now. She appeared in a grand total of two Hoenn episodes out of a 130 episode saga, that's not what I call a main character. I wouldn't consider Drew a main character either, since he's just another recurring character like Tracey, Butch and Cassidy, or Gary.

Main characters are characters who appear in every episode, or nearly every episode.

The only main characters I see of Pokemon Advance are the obvious ones that have been in almost every episode, namely Ash, May, Max, Brock, Jessie, James, and Meowth. That's it.

Drew appearing once every 20-30 episodes does not make him a main character, no matter how you slice it.

Shigeru-kun
9th July 2005, 6:29 PM
I know they weren't directed at me, but because the whole "Satoshi is jealous of Jigi" arguments always bug me, I have to answer these. x_x



Maybe...maybe not. From what I remember, he didn't make that mistake out of no where. He was clearly ticked off when Rudy was sweet talking Misty in the back of the boat and that made him call out Charizard..cause he wasn't thinking and wanted to show them what he was made of. If Rudy wasn't handing out flowers to Misty on that boat, then Ash might have been calm and chose a Pokemon he can tame but he got mad and wasn't thinking, which led him to calling out Charizard. You see, when he was first on the boat, he didn't see Misty and Rudy talking in the back and seemed all confident. However, when he turned around and saw them, he got mad and called out Charizard, only to be yelled at by Tracey for doing that. After he called Charizard out, he noticed what he did and got nervous. So, he was fine and only made that mistake when he got mad (or jealous..)
And...what if he was just utterly ticked off? The kid came to the island for a gym match! Not for the dang leader to ignore him! o_o; I mean, I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty POed if the gym leader ignored me like that.



From the look on his face, he seemed pretty surprised and shock. I would be too if a total stranger all of a sudden took my crush's hand and started dancing with them out of no where...right in front of me. o_O
Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but A LOT of things in Japan are considered rude...even stuff most people here would just consider normal. However, arriving at an island, only to see some weird guy take your friend and start dancing with them?! In Japan or the U.S. that would just be plain rude...not to mention weird. Even people in Hawaii just kiss you. o_o;;;; If I would have seen that happen to even my best friend I would have been completely shocked.

Jo-Jo
9th July 2005, 8:07 PM
Guys, would you mind not debating Pokeshipping in here, please? We already have a thread for that.

And I still see absolutely no reason why a main character (May) can't end up with a secondary character (Drew). It is not written in stone that the writers must decide their final couples by listing all of the guys and girls in order of importance, and drawing horizontal lines between them. Especially in a show where romance isn't even important.

cold_katanagirl
9th July 2005, 8:08 PM
I always thought the Danny/Rudy thing, Ash just wanted some blasted attention. I only saw random parts the Danny episode though...

But yeah, I thought Ash just wanted some attention. He seemed to act the same way around Brawly to me, and if he were jealous Ash would have jumped in and interfered or something. He didn't seem to pay attention to Misty to me. =/

... But this is the wrong thread for this discussion. <.<

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 8:13 PM
Guys, would you mind not debating Pokeshipping in here, please? We already have a thread for that.

And I still see absolutely no reason why a main character (May) can't end up with a secondary character (Drew). It is not written in stone that the writers must decide their final couples by listing all of the guys and girls in order of importance, and drawing lines between them. Especially in a show where romance isn't even important.

, it's pretty hard to think about. It's like saying Ash would be paired up with Melody, Macy, or Bianca.

All 3 of them are most likely one-shot characters, who we'll never see again. Even if one of them return someday, the writers probably have no intention to pair them up.

If you're saying Drew could be with May because he likes her and is a minor character, then the same argument could go for these 3 girls. All 3 of them had a definite crush on Ash, yet all 3 were minor characters. Thus, canon shipping between any of them and Ash is hard to think of.

The only reason Drew seems more plausible is because he's still around in the series, and probably will be until May beats him in a Grand Festival.

Drew might like May, but his minor character AS WELL as rival status works against him. Unless the writers make Drew a main character all of a sudden (which I don't see happening), then I don't see Contestshipping happening either.

Jo-Jo
9th July 2005, 9:01 PM
Because, Ms. Jo-Jo, it's pretty hard to think about. It's like saying Ash would be paired up with Melody, Macy, or Bianca.
Actually, it's more like saying Ash would be paired with Gary. I don't think he will be, but not because Gary wasn't important enough.


All 3 of them are most likely one-shot characters, who we'll never see again.
Which makes them similar to Drew, how?


If you're saying Drew could be with May because he likes her and is a minor character,
Nope. I'm saying Drew could be with May because he likes her (and she likes him) and is a secondary character.


Drew might like May, but his minor character AS WELL as rival status works against him. Unless the writers make Drew a main character all of a sudden (which I don't see happening), then I don't see Contestshipping happening either.
Drew is not a minor character. He's probably the most important character in AG after the seven leads. He's certainly appeared more often than Professor Oak or Tracey. In fact, I think he's been in more episodes than even Masamune and Tetsuya.

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 9:54 PM
Which makes them similar to Drew, how?

They're all characters who had a crush/liked/or had some sort of attraction to a main character. Since they're minor characters, a serious canon relationship between one of them and Ash was out of the quesiton. It's the same thing with Drew, it's just that he has the privilege of being a recurring rival character, so he gets a hell of a lot more screentime. Otherwise it's the same dynamic of a minor/recurring character with a main one.


Drew is not a minor character. He's probably the most important character in AG after the seven leads. He's certainly appeared more often than Professor Oak or Tracey. In fact, I think he's been in more episodes than even Masamune and Tetsuya.

Secondary characters in Pokemon: Misty (I'll say she is also somewhat of a minor character, but since she was on the group for 200+ eps. before Advance, she deserves to be here), Tracey, Prof. Oak, Delia, Norman, Caroline, Giovanni, Prof. Birch, or anyone else who has a secure niche in the Pokemon anime.

For the record if you're asking me if I consider Tetsuya or Masamune as secondary characters....I don't.

Namely because there's no guarentee that we'll see either of them again, they're just minor characters created for the league so Ash can lose to a friend. They're of no importance otherwise.

I consider Drew on the same level that I consider Harrison, Tetsuya, or Masamune. They're characters created simply for the main character to eventually beat/lose against in a league. Nothing more.

Jo-Jo
9th July 2005, 10:44 PM
They're all characters who had a crush/liked/or had some sort of attraction to a main character.
You said that they were one-shot characters we'd probably never see again. Not a terribly accurate description of Drew.


Since they're minor characters, a serious canon relationship between one of them and Ash was out of the quesiton. It's the same thing with Drew, it's just that he has the privilege of being a recurring rival character, so he gets a hell of a lot more screentime. Otherwise it's the same dynamic of a minor/recurring character with a main one.
I'm confused. You're saying that the likes of Melody, Bianca or Macey could never end up with Ash because they're one-shots, which makes them minor. (Agreed.) But then you admit that Drew isn't a one-shot, is a recurring character and gets "a hell of a lot more screentime"... but he still can't end up with May because he's a minor character? By what criteria do you define 'minor', then?


Secondary characters in Pokemon: Misty (I'll say she is also somewhat of a minor character, but since she was on the group for 200+ eps. before Advance, she deserves to be here), Tracey, Prof. Oak, Delia, Norman, Caroline, Giovanni, Prof. Birch, or anyone else who has a secure niche in the Pokemon anime.
Delia, Giovanni and Professor Birch are important enough to be secondary characters, but not Drew?? That's just crazy. Drew has gotten WAY more screentime and development in AG than any of those characters you just listed. His "niche" in the anime is every bit as secure as theirs are. And before you bring up the possibility of him leaving after May beats him, you can say the exact same thing for Prof. Birch once the group moves onto a different region.


For the record if you're asking me if I consider Tetsuya or Masamune as secondary characters....I don't.

Namely because there's no guarentee that we'll see either of them again, they're just minor characters created for the league so Ash can lose to a friend. They're of no importance otherwise.
I would class them as secondary, but only in Hoenn. But I can't help noticing that the reason you don't count them is because there's "no guarantee we'll see either of them again" and they were "created for the league so Ash can lose to a friend". Once again... really doesn't sound like Drew.


I consider Drew on the same level that I consider Harrison, Tetsuya, or Masamune. They're characters created simply for the main character to eventually beat/lose against in a league. Nothing more.
Despite the fact that Drew was introduced a LOT earlier than Harrison, Tetsuya and Masamune, his rivalry with May was established ages in advance of the GF taking place, he has competed with her several times prior to the GF and has been given character development in an episode not even related to the contests?

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 11:02 PM
You said that they were one-shot characters we'd probably never see again. Not a terribly accurate description of Drew. I'm confused. You're saying that the likes of Melody, Bianca or Macey could never end up with Ash because they're one-shots, which makes them minor. (Agreed.) But then you admit that Drew isn't a one-shot, is a recurring character and gets "a hell of a lot more screentime"... but he still can't end up with May because he's a minor character? By what criteria do you define 'minor', then?

This is how I describe the characters:

Co-stars or Leads: In AG, it's Ash and May. Both of them are clearly more important than Brock, Max, or Team Rocket, which is why Ash and May are co-stars of Pokemon Advance. Both have long ongoing story arcs throughout the season.

Main characters: Characters who appear in every episode, such as the main 7 in Pokemon Advance. This is below the leads, because while Brock and Max are main characters, the show doesn't revolve around them. They may be in every episode, but they aren't leads, Ash and May are.

Secondary Characters: Characters who have a niche in the anime, serve at least some importance, (either by being family members, such as Delia and Norman/Caroline) or having a major role in the anime at one point or another (Misty/Tracey, when they were in the group) or someone like Giovanni (who is considered the main villain of the Pokemon anime)

Minor/Recurring characters: Minor characters may be recurring or may appear once a region. I consider characters like Drew, Masamune, Tetsuya, Richie, Casey, Misty's sisters (Daisy, Lily, Violet), etc. as minor characters. They hold some signifigance in the anime of course, but they're not as important as secondary characters, so they stay here.

Filler characters/One-shots: Finally at the very bottom of the list, this belongs to the filler characters or one-shots that we will see for one ep. and then we never hear from them again. Sadly, a lot of movie characters fall under this category since I doubt the writers will bring any movie characters back in the main series.

Minor Characters/One-Shots can be interchangeable, since one-shots like Casey ended up appearing more than once, so she moved into the minor characters category.

This is how I consider the characters in the Pokemon anime, in any case. I don't see Drew as important as Misty or Tracey (or Giovanni or Prof. Oak), so I don't put him in the secondary category.

I hope this clears any confusion you had about my argument Jo-Jo.

Jo-Jo
9th July 2005, 11:28 PM
I understand your argument fine, but I'm baffled as to how you arrived at the conclusion that Drew is on the same level, importance-wise, as Misty's sisters or Casey. A minor character is someone that you could chop out fairly easily without affecting the plot. The Jennys and Joys, for instance, might as well not exist; they have no effect on the main story, and their only function is to provide a couple of convenient services for the main characters. If you were to write a synopsis of AG, mentioning all of the relevant events that occur, you probably wouldn't need to mention Joy or Jenny once. But Drew? There's no way his name wouldn't come up a fair few times.

CyberCubed
9th July 2005, 11:38 PM
Ooh, I forgot about Joy and Jenny. :p

Eh, I guess I'd probably put them in the minor character list too. There are some episodes where Joy and Jenny are VERY important...and others where they do almost nothing.

As for if I were writing an ep, well...you would have to mention EVERYONE wouldn't you? Including whatever backround characters have to be in a particular story. I mean for a real script...pretty much everything needs to be described.

Maybe I consider minor characters of having some importance (unlike as you put it, characters who can be cut out without much trouble), but I see rival characters like Drew/Casey/Richie etc. as all in the same mold.

You can't really cut someone like Richie out or else the Indigo league wouldn't make sense. Who would Ash lose to then? Same reason why Drew can't be cut out, cause who would May lose to in the GF then?

However, I just don't see their importance in the anime to grant ANY of the rival characters as secondary ones.

I'm even having a tough time where to put Gary. He appeared a hell of a lot in Kanto, was actually a fairly important character...but has now completely disappeared from the show.

For a character like Gary...it's a bit more complicated. As for Drew maybe it's a gender thing.

Maybe I'm just not as infatuated with Drew as you are? I am male afterall, I don't get turned on by Drew flicking his hair. ;)

Transducer
9th July 2005, 11:51 PM
XD I suppose Meowth fancies him too, huh? ;)


LOL! I obviously meant females right? Not males like Meowth who would have a crush on ours truly seeing as how it would be homosexuality XP

Jo-Jo
10th July 2005, 12:06 AM
Maybe I consider minor characters of having some importance (unlike as you put it, characters who can be cut out without much trouble), but I see rival characters like Drew/Casey/Richie etc. as all in the same mold.
But surely you'll agree that Richie, for instance, is less important than Gary? And that Harley is less important than Drew? And that Nikolai is less important than Masamune? The rivals in this show do all come in different molds; some of them are main rivals, who put in loads of appearances and have a proper developed relationship with the hero (Gary and Drew come under this category). And some of them are introduced at the last minute, just as an excuse to make Ash lose to somebody. Harrison and, to an extent, Robert both come in here. So does Richie, although his character was given a little bit more to do in HoSos.


You can't really cut someone like Richie out or else the Indigo league wouldn't make sense. Who would Ash lose to then? Same reason why Drew can't be cut out, cause who would May lose to in the GF then?
And there's the difference between them. Richie's only function was for Ash to lose to him. That's why he was introduced so late - he wasn't needed prior to the League. But Drew's role is much more crucial than that. He's done a lot more than simply beat May in the Grand Festival.


I'm even having a tough time where to put Gary. He appeared a hell of a lot in Kanto, was actually a fairly important character...but has now completely disappeared from the show.
Gary was a secondary character in Kanto and Johto, and a one-shot character in Hoenn (appeared in one HoSo, am I right?)


For a character like Gary...it's a bit more complicated. As for Drew maybe it's a gender thing.
I'd say it boils down to screentime. There really is no other objective way to analyse this. Drew has received more screentime than any other character apart from the seven main ones; I'd say that makes him important.


Maybe I'm just not as infatuated with Drew as you are? I am male afterall, I don't get turned on by Drew flicking his hair.
Well, neither do I. I just think it's cool. :D


LOL! I obviously meant females right? Not males like Meowth who would have a crush on ours truly seeing as how it would be homosexuality XP
Hey, Meowth's already had a crush on James (induced by Shuckle juice, but still). And as for his Boss fantasies... yipes, I don't wanna go there.

XDLord
10th July 2005, 3:08 AM
But surely you'll agree that Richie, for instance, is less important than Gary? And that Harley is less important than Drew? And that Nikolai is less important than Masamune? The rivals in this show do all come in different molds; some of them are main rivals, who put in loads of appearances and have a proper developed relationship with the hero (Gary and Drew come under this category). And some of them are introduced at the last minute, just as an excuse to make Ash lose to somebody. Harrison and, to an extent, Robert both come in here. So does Richie, although his character was given a little bit more to do in HoSos.


And there's the difference between them. Richie's only function was for Ash to lose to him. That's why he was introduced so late - he wasn't needed prior to the League. But Drew's role is much more crucial than that. He's done a lot more than simply beat May in the Grand Festival.


Gary was a secondary character in Kanto and Johto, and a minor character in Hoenn (appeared in one HoSo, am I right?)


I'd say it boils down to screentime. There really is no other objective way to analyse this. Drew has received more screentime than any other character apart from the seven main ones; I'd say that makes him important.


Well, neither do I. I just think it's cool. :D


Hey, Meowth's already had a crush on James (induced by Shuckle juice, but still). And as for his Boss fantasies... yipes, I don't wanna go there.

Drew and Gary fall under the secondary characters catagory.

Encyclopika
10th July 2005, 7:42 PM
I consider Drew on the same level that I consider Harrison, Tetsuya, or Masamune. They're characters created simply for the main character to eventually beat/lose against in a league. Nothing more.
There is more to Drew...that's why we're having this discussion...if he didn't have anything more to him, no one would see it to begin with. I have to say, before Drew even came around I had no real problem with Advanceshipping...like if not Misty, then this May girl. But then when Drew came around and acted all cutesy with her, Advanceshipping couldn't hold up it's end and died in my head. Obviously there is something more for a bunch of random people to get worked up on. Drew plays a bigger role than most of the real minor characters. IMO, a minor character is one that appears for only one episode/movie and just that or, does appear in every episode, but has no role. It is the lowest ranking for a character (cameos in other episodes (example GF eps where we saw one shot coordinators watching the GF on TV) don't raise status. But if you think Drew is a minor character, so be it. Why you think Drew and May can't get together JUST BECAUSE he's a "minor character" is just not a good enough reason.
For you, Drew falls into an "unimportant character, who, if you want, can have some importance for being a rival" then you are wrong. He plays the new Gary role for starters...then he goes above that for reasons already explained.
Anyway, thank you Jo-Jo for backing me up. ^^

CyberCubed
10th July 2005, 7:45 PM
I don't see why just because they developed Drew's character since his first appearance that it makes him more important than any other rivals.

They developed Tetsuya's character too by giving him this backstory about him and his Meowth, but that doesn't make me think anymore highly of him than I already do.

The writers have to give some dimension to their characters, or else nobody would like them.


He plays the new Gary role for starters...then he goes above that for reasons already explained.

Not quite, I still don't see how Drew "goes above" someone like Gary simply because he wants to get inside May's pants.

He's still a rival character. That's the reason the writers created him in the first place. A rival character is still a rival character, no matter how much they develop his personality. He's a recurring character for May's contests, nothing more.

XDLord
10th July 2005, 11:55 PM
Drew is a rival. Simple as that. He is nowhere near as important as someone in the Secondary Characters catagory, and never will be. Even Gary is more important then Drew, Gary actually appeared out of battles.

Jo-Jo
10th July 2005, 11:58 PM
What do you mean "just" a rival character? This is a series centred heavily on competing - I'd have thought that in that context, a rival figure would be one of the more important staples of the show. I'm having difficulty figuring out what you expect Drew to do in order to become suitably important to be May's love-interest. He's had screentime, plenty of character development, his relationship with May has been explored by the writers in quite a lot of depth (for them)... what is he missing?


Even Gary is more important then Drew, Gary actually appeared out of battles.
*points to Wynaut ep* So does Drew. Drew actually appeared more in AG than Gary did in Johto.

cold_katanagirl
11th July 2005, 12:11 AM
Drew seems about the same level as Gary in my opinion, or a little bit above him at the most.

The only reason Drew appears in more episodes than Gary did is because of the contests. You don't have to battle anybody else to get to the gym leader, but for contests you're competing with many others. Besides, Drew is May's main rival, so he's going to appear more than Gary did.

Drew isn't just May's "love interest", he's also her rival, and rival comes first (well, I think it should anyway). I see too many Contestshippers forgetting Drew is May's rival. o.0;

Jo-Jo
11th July 2005, 12:32 AM
O_o Woah, do we? I sure hope not. Drew's main role is as May's rival, no doubt about that.

CyberCubed
11th July 2005, 1:19 AM
Indeed, and if Drew gets all nice and mushy than his character is going to suck. He should continue to act like a conceited prick, since that's what he does best. Just add a dash of metrosexuality in there and a girlie Roselia as your lead Poke, and that's Drew in a nutshell.

People complained about Gary when he "turned nice" in Johto. People missed his arrogant attitude toward Ash. What used to be Gary taunting "Gary was here, Ash is a loser!" became "Oh hey Ash! How's it going? ^_^"

If they do that to Drew...the blech. Drew does act overly arrogant sometimes, but if they turn him into another friendly rival his character will suck. I don't particularly care for Drew right now, but I do like the fact that he's willing to prove himself against other coordinators (and even with a Roselia as his lead poke...I wonder how other guys see Drew in the Pokemon world...?)

The same problem happened to Misty too. Once she lost her fiery temper and "turned nice" her character started to wane. In fact, her motherly attitude is just what got her kicked off the show.

Now to bring this back to the rivals, Gary was binded to Ash until he beat him. Afterall Gary was a rival, and the whole point of this is that we were always rooting for Ash to beat him. However once Ash finally did beat Gary...Gary's role on the show was no longer needed. The ties that bound them were finally cut, and Ash surpassed him.

I see the same thing with May and Drew. They're only bound by Contests, they're not bound as friends/potential lovers. Afterall, we're all rooting for May to eventually beat Drew aren't we? Since we always root for the hero, or heroine in May's case.

That's why Drew is locked in the typical rival role. He's only *there* for May to eventually get better than him and beat him.

It really doesn't matter how popular Drew is in Japan or anywhere else. If you recall, Gary was very popular as well, he was in fact one of the most popular characters in Pokemon when it first started......but look where he is now. Since Johto ended, Gary got one Hoso special and that's it.

Rival characters have no lasting status in the long run. I can't see Drew hanging around May after she beats him. In this kind of show where the underdog is above the rival, it doesn't work.

cold_katanagirl
11th July 2005, 2:02 AM
I really don't see a lot of Contestshippers doing that here. Actually, the shippers here are quite nice. ^^

But go to a place like... Oh I dunno... Pokecommunity. The shippers there are ridiculous. But I'm only saying that because I receive rather rude PM's from Pokeshippers and Contestshippers (I have NO idea why I'm getting bad ones from them seeing as I AM ONE) on a daily basis. -_-

ANYWAY. I hope Drew doesn't turn nice like Gary did (and he probably will), or I'll most likely drop Contestshipping completely.

If May beats Drew, I think the question is whether he'll stick around or not... POTENTIAL TOPIC PLZ.

CyberCubed
11th July 2005, 2:27 AM
Yeah, I noticed that serebiiforums have some of the most "stable" shippers. At least people here don't bite your head off for saying a single negative thing about an opposing ship.

It's pretty much a reason why I keep coming back here, it's entertaining.

Other Pokemon shipping forums on the net are downright pathetic. They all sound like a bunch of 14-15 year olds whining and bashing each over who will marry Ash and have his 6 kids.

Uh-huh.

Jo-Jo
11th July 2005, 9:23 AM
Drew's a kind of mix between Kanto!Gary and Johto!Gary, I'd say. He has the prickishness, but also the depth and underlying decency. I doubt he'll ever do a complete 180 like Gary did, because he doesn't really need to. Gary realised he had to change his attitude because he'd spent an entire region thinking he was God's gift, only to receive a rude shock to his system when he actually lost at something. But Drew's already shown that he can take a beating in battle without suffering too much disappointment; thus, no need to change. I imagine what'll happen is he'll keep on gradually 'nicening up', but won't ever lose his caustic streak.

As for Gary, didn't his VA quit? Because if so, that kinda uncuts the "Drew will inevitably leave once May beats him" argument.

CyberCubed
11th July 2005, 6:28 PM
Eh, there is still no confirmed answer if Gary's VA quit or not. Some say he did, some say he didn't, who knows.

I kind of hope he didn't quit, since I thought Gary was a very cool character and I would love to see him again. Since Ash and co. are in Kanto again, it would be nice for Gary to show up studying some Pokemon or something...but I dunno.

Encyclopika
11th July 2005, 7:23 PM
I don't know if Drew should be so tightly connected to the way Gary was...like Jo-Jo said, he went around Johto thinking he was the best thing ever only to get beaten by his underdog rival(Ash). Drew, on the other hand, has demonstarted he is an underdog rival to someone else - Robert (Milotic coordinator). In the first contest May was in we saw Drew attempt beating Robert and lost. In the GF, he once again went to beat Robert, only to get his a** kicked. It seems to me he isn't one to leave after a defeat, especially from his own underdog rival(May). He seems to be one to stick around and reclaim (or try again).

CyberCubed
11th July 2005, 7:59 PM
I want May to kick Robert's *** too. He's apparently one of the best coordinators out there, it would be a great accomplishment for May to beat him.

I don't know if Harley will come back though. May already beat him twice, is there really a reason to bring him back besides seeing May beat him a third time? :p

Jo-Jo
11th July 2005, 8:40 PM
I hope we see Harley again. He doesn't seem the type to ever give up on getting revenge on "Meno-chan". Actually, one of my few disappointments in the GF eps were that he tried the exact same plan to get back at May as he did in his first appearance. With luck, the next time he shows up, he'll attempt something new. Maybe even something that doesn't involve a Pokemon battle. Hmm.

XDLord
11th July 2005, 9:40 PM
I want May to kick Robert's *** too. He's apparently one of the best coordinators out there, it would be a great accomplishment for May to beat him.

I don't know if Harley will come back though. May already beat him twice, is there really a reason to bring him back besides seeing May beat him a third time? :p

This is how I see the next 2 GF's going(at least in the final rounds):

Kanto GF:
Semifinal: Drew vs. Robert I suppose, Drew defeats Robert
Finals: May vs. Drew, Drew beats May again

D/P GF:

Semifinal: May vs. Robert, May wins.
Finals: May vs. Drew, May wins.

After the D/P GF, we're gonna see the D/P league where Ash finally wins, then teh show is over. ;249-d;

Jo-Jo
11th July 2005, 9:55 PM
May's a looooong way off beating Robert, IMO. He's like the co-ordinator equivalent of one of the Elite Four.

CyberCubed
11th July 2005, 9:56 PM
Methinks Ash will still continue after he wins a tournament. He's still not a very good trainer, and far from the best. I see no reason for Ash to give up training just because he beats one lousy tournament.

XDLord
11th July 2005, 10:23 PM
May's a looooong way off beating Robert, IMO. He's like the co-ordinator equivalent of one of the Elite Four.

Exactly why she beats in the D/P GF, the last one.

Encyclopika
12th July 2005, 1:15 AM
^I think what XDLord is trying to get at, is that by the time the D/P GF rolls around, the show would have died very much and the most loyal fans wouldn't have time for it (probably all in college to getting a life-said in the best way possible mind you) and is hopeful Pokemon will end traditionally with one final cough before it croaks for good - where everything is tied up and there are no more questions to be asked...of coarse that's hopeful thinking. Our luck with 4Kids is just getting worse, and by then we probably won't even have it - as far as the US goes anyway.
^That was off topic, but if the show ends in that way, I'd be happy. ^^ Of coarse, asking for one of these ships (out of this whole board) to work out is a lot to ask out of the writers. *rolls eyes*

CyberCubed
12th July 2005, 1:22 AM
^I think what XDLord is trying to get at, is that by the time the D/P GF rolls around, the show would have died very much and the most loyal fans wouldn't have time for it (probably all in college to getting a life-said in the best way possible mind you)

I hate to break the news to you, but people who started watching the show since the Kanto days are already in College.

I was 11 when I was watching the 1st season, and now 8 seasons later i'm 19 and getting ready for my third semester of College in the Fall. Most Pokemon fans who started watching the show when they were kids are already teens or adults.


and is hopeful Pokemon will end traditionally with one final cough before it croaks for good - where everything is tied up and there are no more questions to be asked...of coarse that's hopeful thinking. Our luck with 4Kids is just getting worse, and by then we probably won't even have it - as far as the US goes anyway.

What do you mean? 4kids isn't in any scenario of going bankrupt if that's what you mean. They're just as profitable as ever. Likewise KidsWB has already renewed Pokemon through Season 9, and I suspect that since the ratings are good (right now it's usually the highest or second highest rated cartoon on their block each Saturday) they'll continue to renew it.

I don't know how the ratings are in the UK or anywhere else, but in the U.S. once Pokemon Advance started the ratings for the show shot up. It isn't in any danger of being cancelled in the U.S. either.

I've already spent most of my teen years watching this show, and since I already put so much effort into it, I might as well stick around and keep watching until it ends. (Whenever that may be).

As I said once before, I hope the show ends before the time I'm 30. :o

Jo-Jo
12th July 2005, 1:24 AM
Well, at least if the show ends next season, we can virtually guarantee that Drew will still be around by then. But I doubt it will. The games are going strong, and the anime is popular in Japan.

...I think we've wandered off-topic. lol.

Encyclopika
12th July 2005, 1:56 AM
The world does not revolve around you Cybercubed...the word MOST is put into the post...MOST loyal fans will be...also saying them trying to get a life...a family and bs like that. And since we are going into personals, I started Pokemon when I was 8 and now I am 15 - and around where I live Pokemon is as dead as I look. It has been that way since I was 10.
But yes, we have gotten off topic.

CyberCubed
12th July 2005, 1:58 AM
The world does not revolve around you Cybercubed...the word MOST is put into the post...MOST loyal fans will be...also saying them trying to get a life...a family and bs like that.

I'm simply telling you that there are lot of people who are already in their late teens/early twenties due to how long this show has been airing.

Of course there are a lot of people who no longer watch it, but the show needs to age with it's audience, or it runs the risk of losing it's older fans.

Encyclopika
12th July 2005, 2:08 AM
Sorry, went a little off there...I have a short temper, sorry about that. ^^;
Anyway, I was only speaking directly from what I am experiencing where I live...generally, if Pokemon had only aired where I live it would have died a long time ago in flames. Seeing as how there are still fans out there, the show, IMO, will take another two regions if we're lucky and then die for lack of time from fans. I'm sort of a pessimist, so bare with me.

MarcmenX
12th July 2005, 2:58 AM
I can't really decide... Cuase I really don't support either O_o... I'm more of a support of AshXLatias and DrewXRoselia... (Yes, I'm a pervert, deal with it)

But I'm leaning toward AshXMay... Since Ash and May have been through a little more than May and Drew... but then again, May and Drew have a bit more in common...

Bah, I hate these conflicts of choice X_X

hyliansage
12th July 2005, 3:26 AM
I was 11 when I was watching the 1st season, and now 8 seasons later i'm 19 and getting ready for my third semester of College in the Fall. Most Pokemon fans who started watching the show when they were kids are already teens or adults.


o___0 Whoaa.... Would the first season be the Japanese "first season" or the American one? Haha. 'Cause I've only been watching the American one for 6 years (First ep = Bill and the Lighthouse! XD) and I got confused... Haha. Thought I lost track of time for a second there. :D [/offtopic]

Umm... what's even on topic here currently? XD

Rider
12th July 2005, 5:17 AM
Wow, this board gets more off-topic with each passing post! lol. Anyway, I wouldn't say that pokemon is dead for the younger genaration because...I am the younger generation ^^; yes if you believe me or not, I'm no older than 13. but enough about that. I say all shippings, except yaoi shippings *shudder* have a chance. unless they're totally absurd. MayxAsh seems like it could happen if they totally erased Misty off the face of the earth! I mean, what would be Misty's reaction to the fact that Ash, had May as a girlfriend? not pretty. And I'm sure that Drew would get so jealous it wouldn't be funny *actually it might but thats not the point* I'm sure you think my talking of misty was off-topic, but I beg to differ. I'm just saying that if May wants Ash, *highly doubt!* Misty's gonna have something to say about it, and she's gonna try and stop it. *can you tell i'm a pokeshipper?* I mean, Advanceshipping is nice once in awhile, but I don't like Ash, so basically pairings with him in it are dead for me. But that's just my opinion. I'd say that most people like Contestshipping because they like Drew. I like May, which is why I like Contestshipping. I just don't see Ash hooking up with anyone in the present time-period, but it's entirely possible for the fact that these writers are at some times unpredictable. *you wouldn't have thought that May would practically be an Ash clone in the first few episodes now would you?*
-MiniMinun ;312;
P.S.- I'm sorry if I got off topic in some points, but this is just my way of pointing out my *hopefully* balanced opinion, with all the statements of which shippings I support.

CyberCubed
12th July 2005, 6:31 AM
A question I have, is why do people say Ash is "too young" to hook up with someone but then turn around and say that May should "hook up" with Drew?

Aren't some of you aware that May is younger than Ash? If the reasoning that Ash/May won't work is because Ash is too young for love, then why should May/Drew work...considering that May is younger than Ash and has probably no real idea of what love is herself?

That's always bugged me, mostly coming from Contestshippers.

cold_katanagirl
12th July 2005, 3:24 PM
I always wondered that too. It's probably because May and Drew are about the same age (assuming obviously) so... I dunno...

And I hear people say "may isn't mature enough to hook up with ash".

... Please. Ash is mature? Since when? Give me a break.

Jo-Jo
12th July 2005, 4:50 PM
A question I have, is why do people say Ash is "too young" to hook up with someone but then turn around and say that May should "hook up" with Drew?

Aren't some of you aware that May is younger than Ash? If the reasoning that Ash/May won't work is because Ash is too young for love, then why should May/Drew work...considering that May is younger than Ash and has probably no real idea of what love is herself?

That's always bugged me, mostly coming from Contestshippers.
*puzzled* When have we ever said that?

Rider
12th July 2005, 6:08 PM
huh? Ash is way more mature than may. *at some points* he's 4 years older than her, so obviously, he's gotta be more mature. He's also been through a lot more than her thats for sure, what with saving the world...how many pokemon movies are there? 8? 9? well he's saved the world about once in each movie. so, obviously, he is more mature than May. I also say that he's 14, because he's been through 4 regions now including hoenn. *I say a year a region* and May, is obviously ten, and I've heard other people saying Drew is 12. just to answer your age questions. now, Maturity has NOTHING to do with romance. *well maybe it does, BUT NOT IN ANIME!* why do I think this? because, THIS IS AN ANIME. PRactically anything can happen in an anime, if the writers want it too. They'll give no such regard to maturity, because NOBODY in pokemon is mature. If you look at the character in different angles, you'll see. And where did you get the idea contestshippers said that? Tell me the people you heard it from, and I'll show you some hard-core contestshippers.
-MiniMinun

XDLord
12th July 2005, 9:59 PM
huh? Ash is way more mature than may. *at some points* he's 4 years older than her, so obviously, he's gotta be more mature. He's also been through a lot more than her thats for sure, what with saving the world...how many pokemon movies are there? 8? 9? well he's saved the world about once in each movie. so, obviously, he is more mature than May. I also say that he's 14, because he's been through 4 regions now including hoenn. *I say a year a region* and May, is obviously ten, and I've heard other people saying Drew is 12. just to answer your age questions. now, Maturity has NOTHING to do with romance. *well maybe it does, BUT NOT IN ANIME!* why do I think this? because, THIS IS AN ANIME. PRactically anything can happen in an anime, if the writers want it too. They'll give no such regard to maturity, because NOBODY in pokemon is mature. If you look at the character in different angles, you'll see. And where did you get the idea contestshippers said that? Tell me the people you heard it from, and I'll show you some hard-core contestshippers.
-MiniMinun

Ash is 11 BTW. It says so in Gotta Catch you Later. Still, any anti-contestshipping debater is good. I belive Drew is older then May, almost 11, but still younger then Ash.

BTW, many young people still watch the show. It's not just the older generation. Heck, apart from the people on forums like this, only the younger kids like Pokemon. The teens prefer to play shooting games/violence.

Rider
12th July 2005, 10:24 PM
*_* I play games with shooting and violence...Isn't gotta catch you later in Kanto though? Because PDunited says that Drew is ten (so not) and Ash is 14. I'm really confused now...I always thought Drew was 12...But still, I guess age doesn't matter huh?

WindyNight
12th July 2005, 10:35 PM
Nobody knew the actual age of Drew since he never told us so...But we can assume that he is a little older than May, because he is more mature ..So yea...But the age doesn't really matter that much..It's just an Anime...

CyberCubed
12th July 2005, 10:47 PM
Ash is 11 BTW. It says so in Gotta Catch you Later.

Can you please stop saying that?!

It's NEVER stated in GCYL that Ash is 11. I have the episode on DVD, nowhere do they state it's only been 1 year since the start of his journey.

Where are you getting your info from?

XDLord
12th July 2005, 11:15 PM
Can you please stop saying that?!

It's NEVER stated in GCYL that Ash is 11. I have the episode on DVD, nowhere do they state it's only been 1 year since the start of his journey.

Where are you getting your info from?

Ash was 10 when he started. A year later, at the start of Hoenn, he was 11. It implies so and therefore it doesn't matter.

CyberCubed
12th July 2005, 11:29 PM
Where was it implied that Hoenn is a single year after everything before it?

For the record, we know that several years passed from Kanto to Hoenn.

When Ash returns to Viridian City to get his 8th badge as they see that the Pokemon Center has been rebuilt, Misty says that's been a whole year since they were there.

Then in mid-Johto during a Pikachu short, Ash celebrates an anniverssary with Pikachu. He didn't say it was their first anniversary, but "a" anniversary.

There is also one episode near the end of Johto where Jessie says "We've been tracking those twerps for years and we still haven't captured Pikachu."

Finally, in the newest Chronicles ep, Misty says that Tracey has been working with Prof. Oak for the last several years.

I'd like to know where in GCYL they only said one year has passed, seeing as how time has been acknowledged as to much more than a year.

Jo-Jo
13th July 2005, 12:10 AM
Yes, I don't see how any less than three years can have passed. Although those last two lines from Jessie and Misty were dub-only, I think.

CyberCubed
13th July 2005, 1:11 AM
*puzzled* When have we ever said that?

You just implied it right now:


We don't need any ships, no, though we'll probably still get one or two. That was why I disagreed with Cybercubed; Ash doesn't need a love-interest, so we shouldn't assume that he's going to get together with May just because she's the token girl of the group. I still don't know why you guys brought Contestshipping into this.

You say Ash doesn't need a love-interest, but you don't say anything of the sort for May.

Do you agree that May doesn't need a love-interest as well? If that's the case, why do you expect them to pair her with Drew since he's a token guy who appears at her contests?

Jo-Jo
13th July 2005, 1:29 AM
You just implied it right now:
Obviously I need to clarify:

1. Neither Ash nor May needs a love-interest.

2. That doesn't guarantee that the writers won't give one to one or both of them anyway. Most shows have shippiness in them, whether romance is necessary to the plot or not. E.g. Robin/Starfire (Teen Titans), Kim/Ron (Kim Possible), Arnold/Helga (Hey Arnold).

3. In any case, I didn't say or imply that Ash can't end up with May because he's too immature for romance.


You say Ash doesn't need a love-interest, but you don't say anything of the sort for May.

Do you agree that May doesn't need a love-interest as well? If that's the case, why do you expect them to pair her with Drew since he's a token guy who appears at her contests?
I expect May to be paired with Drew because I think they fancy each other. No other reason.

Encyclopika
13th July 2005, 1:50 AM
It's only implied by shippers and other watchers of the show that Ash may not be so interested in love IN GENERAL. He has shown multiple times that either A) he's not interested in romance B) Really dense to it or C) too into his Pokemon training, future, dreams, etc. to notice/care.
Just stating a point...not saying Ash couldn't do a Gary, and completely change in one episode, seeing as the writers like to show how much power over the show they have - XP

WindyNight
13th July 2005, 2:28 AM
Ash is not into love as much as May, IMO...Sometimes, May got all excitied because of love stuff...
And I totally agree with what Encyclopika said about why Ash may not be interested in love..

Transducer
13th July 2005, 2:37 AM
It's only implied by shippers and other watchers of the show that Ash may not be so interested in love IN GENERAL. He has shown multiple times that either A) he's not interested in romance B) Really dense to it or C) too into his Pokemon training, future, dreams, etc. to notice/care.
Just stating a point...not saying Ash couldn't do a Gary, and completely change in one episode, seeing as the writers like to show how much power over the show they have - XP

Perhaps sticking an option 4 might be acceptable. How about: D) He is too embarassed about it. I think it kinda makes sense because you see in the Bicker the Better eppie (For example. I'm sure most of you have seen it, if not then DON'T start ranting "ZOMG! NO ADVANCESHIP HINTZ! oneoneoneone!"), Satoshi did react heavily again when he heard the word "love" from Oscar/Andy's mouths after a long while. Now I'm not going into any Pokeshipping here since that would be off-topic but there have been similar situations.

To elucidate, here is an animation I've compiled from that particular scene:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/368/advship9ck.gif

^Recognize it? If not, then don't bother commenting.

See? He was a tad embarassed there (as well as Haruka). So in conclusion what I'm trying to say is that Satoshi is able to have love feelings but he's either too embarassed to show it or he can't handle it quite right. Satoshi DOES know how to sweet talk a girl btw so you can see how Haruka always enjoys his company.

All in my opinion btw. If you don't agree with me, then fine.