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Meganium Ex
5th November 2005, 8:26 PM
I just looked at the Debate rules and saw that they were allowed, so here is the debate for Advanceshipping VS. Pokeshipping, the two "Main Charecter" ships. Which one is more likely to happen? Which one will defnitly not happen? And which one do YOU support?

And this is not an arument thread,it's just to discuss which one is you like more.

So...let the debate begin!

Satoshi
5th November 2005, 9:01 PM
To get things out of the way, I'm indeed a Pokeshipper.

I think Pokeshipping and Advanceshipping are most likely to happen, I don't think any of them will definately not happen. But I think Pokeshipping will be most likely to happen, since Kasumi and Satoshi have a long history with eachother and the loads of hints in Kanto - Johto (not counting dubbed ones). I've never seen an Advanceshipping hint (Dubbed and Original) and it doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

And since I'm a Veteran Pokeshipper (since the beginning of the anime), I'm kind of biased about these things. XD

Anikin
5th November 2005, 9:15 PM
Listen, I love Advanceshiping and there are or not many fans but this is just my opinion. the truth is that Advanceshipping might happen in the end because of all od those reasons above.
May looks better with Ash because they have clothes that almoust match.
May is more similer with Ash hence their personalaties and Pokemon.
May seems to pay more attention to Ash. Because....... well a lot of stuff.
And not to mention the hints:
1. Episode 318. “Love at first flight"; She mentioned something about love being a beautiful thing and winked at Ash.
2. May yelled “yes!” in the “Get The show on the road” when she could join with Ash, while she had the attention of travelling alone in the beginning of the episode.
3. Ash and May meet a couple who say Ash and May are only fighting to hide their "true" feelings for each other.
4. In the episode "King of the Forbidden Forest! Venasaur!" and “Tag battle! Ash vs. May!” Ash both saved May within a period of 15 episodes. In AG 115 Ash saves May once again from a Donphan who heads for May.
5. In "Get the Show on the Road" May was about to say something to Ash about her bike, then looked at him and said "OH, well"
6. In the episode "On a wingull and a prayer", May looks out to sea and thinks about Ash yelling at her previous that day, which makes her slightly blush.
7. Quite at the end of "Tag Battle! Ash vs. May?!", when they battle together against TR, their team work is perfect What did the Tag Battle couple say before? A strong relation between the two trainers is needed to win in a tag battle
8. In “Go Go Ludicolo” May didn’t only support her own father but wouldn’t feel bad if Ash won too. Hence this line: ”Of course I want our dad to win but I don't want to see Ash lose either”
9. When May is taken into the forest in King of the forbidden Forest! Venusaur!, Ash and co can't follow and have no other choice but to sit back and wait. Max is worried but doesn’t say anything to get Brock or Ash to save May but instead Ash steps up and wants to save May!

- A Tail With a Twist. Torchic was in trouble and Treecko saved it. But 'ya see, just a few minutes ago Max had said that a Pokémon's personality depended a lot on its trainer's personality. So think about it: Torchic (May) saved by Treecko (ash)

- Becoming a good friend with a pokemon (Larvitar and Swablu) and then leave them behind.
- Having a rival which keeps beating the one. (Drew+Gary)
- Knew nothing about pokemon in the beginning of the journey. Btw didn't Ash make this mistake in the ep where he caught Treecko too. He wanted to catch it by throwing a pokeball but May corrected him
- Bulbasaur. They both have one and May’s Bulbasaur even has 2 hearts upon its forehead. It was also the fourth pokemon Ash and May caught!
- Ash and May both caught as their first pokemon, an insect pokemon which evolves into a butterfly.
- Both main characters in a game
- both Ash and May lost the first confrontation with their rivals.
- Ash and May’s names have 3 letters and the name of their rival have 4 letters.
- that both have managed to use a pokemon before they catch it: Ash Torkoal and May Bulbasaur.
- They both have a pokemon from the same family line (Snorlax+Munchlax)

- Episode Abandon ship: Ash looks at May for a long while when they got drinks and cookies. He doesn’t say a thing but just stares
- Episode Rollout! Loving Donphan: Ash puts his hands on May’s shoulders when he tells her he will find Max for her so she can take the boat to Pacifidlog Town.
- Episode Tag battle! Ash vs May: At the end of the episode they start to compliment each other.
- In “There’s no place like Hoenn” Ash comforts May when Team Rocket stole their Torchic and tells her that no matter what she’ll get her Torchic back
- At the Ruibuso Contest, after May and Ash argued, they apologize to one another
- True Blue Swablu: Ash wanted to arrive at the next gym quickly, but when he saw how much May liked the Swablu, he decided to stay for another few days so that May can be with Swablu.
- In "All In A Day's Wurmple", Ash is worried about May when she ran after the Wurmple alone to catch it and asked the others: "Do you think we can leave her on her own?"

Meganium Ex
5th November 2005, 9:33 PM
Listen, I love Advanceshiping and there are or not many fans but this is just my opinion. the truth is that Advanceshipping might happen in the end because of all od those reasons above.
May looks better with Ash because they have clothes that almoust match.
May is more similer with Ash hence their personalaties and Pokemon.
May seems to pay more attention to Ash. Because....... well a lot of stuff.
And not to mention the hints:
1. Episode 318. “Love at first flight"; She mentioned something about love being a beautiful thing and winked at Ash.
2. May yelled “yes!” in the “Get The show on the road” when she could join with Ash, while she had the attention of travelling alone in the beginning of the episode.
3. Ash and May meet a couple who say Ash and May are only fighting to hide their "true" feelings for each other.
4. In the episode "King of the Forbidden Forest! Venasaur!" and “Tag battle! Ash vs. May!” Ash both saved May within a period of 15 episodes. In AG 115 Ash saves May once again from a Donphan who heads for May.
5. In "Get the Show on the Road" May was about to say something to Ash about her bike, then looked at him and said "OH, well"
6. In the episode "On a wingull and a prayer", May looks out to sea and thinks about Ash yelling at her previous that day, which makes her slightly blush.
7. Quite at the end of "Tag Battle! Ash vs. May?!", when they battle together against TR, their team work is perfect What did the Tag Battle couple say before? A strong relation between the two trainers is needed to win in a tag battle
8. In “Go Go Ludicolo” May didn’t only support her own father but wouldn’t feel bad if Ash won too. Hence this line: ”Of course I want our dad to win but I don't want to see Ash lose either”
9. When May is taken into the forest in King of the forbidden Forest! Venusaur!, Ash and co can't follow and have no other choice but to sit back and wait. Max is worried but doesn’t say anything to get Brock or Ash to save May but instead Ash steps up and wants to save May!

- A Tail With a Twist. Torchic was in trouble and Treecko saved it. But 'ya see, just a few minutes ago Max had said that a Pokémon's personality depended a lot on its trainer's personality. So think about it: Torchic (May) saved by Treecko (ash)

- Becoming a good friend with a pokemon (Larvitar and Swablu) and then leave them behind.
- Having a rival which keeps beating the one. (Drew+Gary)
- Knew nothing about pokemon in the beginning of the journey. Btw didn't Ash make this mistake in the ep where he caught Treecko too. He wanted to catch it by throwing a pokeball but May corrected him
- Bulbasaur. They both have one and May’s Bulbasaur even has 2 hearts upon its forehead. It was also the fourth pokemon Ash and May caught!
- Ash and May both caught as their first pokemon, an insect pokemon which evolves into a butterfly.
- Both main characters in a game
- both Ash and May lost the first confrontation with their rivals.
- Ash and May’s names have 3 letters and the name of their rival have 4 letters.
- that both have managed to use a pokemon before they catch it: Ash Torkoal and May Bulbasaur.
- They both have a pokemon from the same family line (Snorlax+Munchlax)

- Episode Abandon ship: Ash looks at May for a long while when they got drinks and cookies. He doesn’t say a thing but just stares
- Episode Rollout! Loving Donphan: Ash puts his hands on May’s shoulders when he tells her he will find Max for her so she can take the boat to Pacifidlog Town.
- Episode Tag battle! Ash vs May: At the end of the episode they start to compliment each other.
- In “There’s no place like Hoenn” Ash comforts May when Team Rocket stole their Torchic and tells her that no matter what she’ll get her Torchic back
- At the Ruibuso Contest, after May and Ash argued, they apologize to one another
- True Blue Swablu: Ash wanted to arrive at the next gym quickly, but when he saw how much May liked the Swablu, he decided to stay for another few days so that May can be with Swablu.
- In "All In A Day's Wurmple", Ash is worried about May when she ran after the Wurmple alone to catch it and asked the others: "Do you think we can leave her on her own?"
Wow Aniken, you have alot more patience then I do ;) Anyways, I think both Pokeshipping AND Advanceshipping have a good chance. Even though I love Advanceshipping, and hate Pokeshipping, they both are the most populer Pokemon ships, and they are both were helped alot by other ships, so yeah, I like Advanceshipping.

Anikin
5th November 2005, 9:37 PM
Yea I guess they are.

Satoshi
5th November 2005, 10:10 PM
Listen, I love Advanceshiping and there are or not many fans but this is just my opinion. the truth is that Advanceshipping might happen in the end because of all od those reasons above.
What reasons above?

May looks better with Ash because they have clothes that almoust match.
Haruka's clothes + Satoshi's clothes = Fashion risk ;/

May is more similer with Ash hence their personalaties and Pokemon.
Just because they have the same Pokemon, doesn't mean they dig eachother. >_>

May seems to pay more attention to Ash. Because....... well a lot of stuff.
Since when? I see Haruka pay more attention to Masato more than Satoshi, but that doesn't mean she likes Masato.....or does she? o_O;

1. Episode 318. “Love at first flight"; She mentioned something about love being a beautiful thing and winked at Ash.
Kasumi also said that to Satoshi.

2. May yelled “yes!” in the “Get The show on the road” when she could join with Ash, while she had the attention of travelling alone in the beginning of the episode.
She could've said that because she had an excuse to travel.

3. Ash and May meet a couple who say Ash and May are only fighting to hide their "true" feelings for each other.
Nurse Joy and Danny said the same thing to Satoshi and Kasumi. And besides, that couple was obssessed with love, so obssessed that they could've done that to anyone.

4. In the episode "King of the Forbidden Forest! Venasaur!" and “Tag battle! Ash vs. May!” Ash both saved May within a period of 15 episodes. In AG 115 Ash saves May once again from a Donphan who heads for May.
Satoshi has saved people countless of times......Then that must mean saving anyone is a hint too! :o

5. In "Get the Show on the Road" May was about to say something to Ash about her bike, then looked at him and said "OH, well"
Maybe because she saw how Satoshi cared for his Pikachu, so she decided to spare him, maybe? >_>

7. Quite at the end of "Tag Battle! Ash vs. May?!", when they battle together against TR, their team work is perfect
Satoshi and Pikachu's teamwork is perfect too, so that must mean......OMG! :D

What did the Tag Battle couple say before? A strong relation between the two trainers is needed to win in a tag battle
They were love-struck. It doesn't take a strong relation between trainers to win a tag battle, it takes teamwork, which they DIDN'T have at the beginning of the episode. They were getting kicked, because they DIDN'T have any teamwork. And....anyone can win against Mushashi and Kojirou. >_>

8. In “Go Go Ludicolo” May didn’t only support her own father but wouldn’t feel bad if Ash won too. Hence this line: ”Of course I want our dad to win but I don't want to see Ash lose either”
She didn't want one of her friends to lose, maybe? :o

9. When May is taken into the forest in King of the forbidden Forest! Venusaur!, Ash and co can't follow and have no other choice but to sit back and wait. Max is worried but doesn’t say anything to get Brock or Ash to save May but instead Ash steps up and wants to save May!
He didn't want one of his friends to get hurt, so he went in there to save Haruka.

- A Tail With a Twist. Torchic was in trouble and Treecko saved it. But 'ya see, just a few minutes ago Max had said that a Pokémon's personality depended a lot on its trainer's personality. So think about it: Torchic (May) saved by Treecko (ash)
Satoshi's personality is heroic, and Treeko was being heroic by saving Torchick. And, it had no choice but to save it, this could happen with ANY Pokemon.

- Becoming a good friend with a pokemon (Larvitar and Swablu) and then leave them behind.
-Kasumi left behind her Togetic after all the times they went through and she left that Oddish after she befriended it.

- Knew nothing about pokemon in the beginning of the journey.
All beginning Pokemon Trainers know nothing about Pokemon at the beginning of their journey.

Btw didn't Ash make this mistake in the ep where he caught Treecko too. He wanted to catch it by throwing a pokeball but May corrected him
Yes, he did. But any trainer could've made that mistake after a while.

- Bulbasaur. They both have one and May’s Bulbasaur even has 2 hearts upon its forehead. It was also the fourth pokemon Ash and May caught!
- Ash and May both caught as their first pokemon, an insect pokemon which evolves into a butterfly.
Which proves nothing.

- Both main characters in a game
*slap* Why do I always have to deal with this? Red and Satoshi are completely different people, Satoshi was based off of Red, but that's just it.

- both Ash and May lost the first confrontation with their rivals. Which also proves nothing. (BTW, how are these hints? -_-;)

- Ash and May’s names have 3 letters and the name of their rival have 4 letters.
ONLY the dubbed names.

Satoshi has 7 letters, while Haruka has 6.

- that both have managed to use a pokemon before they catch it: Ash Torkoal and May Bulbasaur.
Kasumi did the exact same thing with Poliwag.

- They both have a pokemon from the same family line (Snorlax+Munchlax)
Again, how are these little things hints? They don't prove that Haruka likes Satoshi, they just prove that she's an Satoshi-clone.

- Episode Rollout! Loving Donphan: Ash puts his hands on May’s shoulders when he tells her he will find Max for her so she can take the boat to Pacifidlog Town.
Putting hands on shoulders mean you're assuring someone that you'll do something, which is what Satoshi was doing to Haruka.

- Episode Tag battle! Ash vs May: At the end of the episode they start to compliment each other.
Complimenting your friends is not a hint, Takeshi has complimented Satoshi on his caring for Pokemon, but does that mean he likes him? No.

- In “There’s no place like Hoenn” Ash comforts May when Team Rocket stole their Torchic and tells her that no matter what she’ll get her Torchic back
And he has said that to people about how many times? -_-;

- At the Ruibuso Contest, after May and Ash argued, they apologize to one another
Apologizing is not a hint.

- True Blue Swablu: Ash wanted to arrive at the next gym quickly, but when he saw how much May liked the Swablu, he decided to stay for another few days so that May can be with Swablu.
And when he saw how much Masato want to go to that Museum where they met Aqua-Dan and Magma-Dan, he let him go. They so love eachother. ¬¬

- In "All In A Day's Wurmple", Ash is worried about May when she ran after the Wurmple alone to catch it and asked the others: "Do you think we can leave her on her own?"
Maybe because he doesn't want a beginning trainer to go of on his/her own?

cold_katanagirl
5th November 2005, 11:51 PM
Advanceshipper. w00t.

Doesn't mean I think it'll happen though. May's focused on Drew imo. If Drew gets shot though.

Tired of stating why I don't think Pokeshipping isn't going to happen.

So sum it up, I don't really think either is likely because neither of the girls really seem interested in Ash at this point and vice versa. Can be later, but for now, no.

CyberCubed
6th November 2005, 12:52 AM
I think Ash finds it easier to relate to May than Misty. Especially since he probably sees a lot of his younger self in May since he watched her start out the exact same way he did.

And I also think it's unlikely that Misty will ever become a main character again, and that's probably the biggest strike against Pokeshipping.

That's all I have to say. :D

wobbsalad
6th November 2005, 1:52 AM
I think the lack of direct hints actually benefits Advanceshipping. The writers want the big confession from one or the other to be a complete surprise at the end.

Well, a surprise, shall we say, to anyone who didn't pick up the subtle vibes (listed previously) that aren't all necessarily hints per se, but contribute to a friendship with love potential.

Pitchi
6th November 2005, 2:13 AM
I like Pokeshipping better. Ash and May are good friends and nothing more

dragonmaster5000
6th November 2005, 3:06 AM
Kasumi also said that to Satoshi.


When?


She didn't want one of her friends to lose, maybe? :o


Why would she choose a friend over her own father unless May considers Ash as more than a friend? :o


Putting hands on shoulders mean you're assuring someone that you'll do something, which is what Satoshi was doing to Haruka.


That might be true, but has Ash ever done that to Misty, let alone any other girl before?

Kagome Higurashi
6th November 2005, 3:14 AM
PokeShipping. It's impossible to erase so many hints, it's never been done before.

Meganium Ex
6th November 2005, 3:20 AM
I knew something like this would happen...Anyways here are topics to DISCUSS, so we won't argue.

This one for Pokeshippers:
Why did you stay loyal to Pokeshipping even after Misty left?

And this one for Advanceshippers:
Were you a Pokeshipper before, that quit Pokeshipping, and started supporting Advanceshipping? If yes, why did you become an Advanceshipper?

cold_katanagirl
6th November 2005, 3:21 AM
PokeShipping. It's impossible to erase so many hints, it's never been done before.Guess Yamcha x Bulma, Krillin x Marron (whatever the heck her name was), Harry x Cho, Kuwabara x Botan, and others obviously never existed.

I'd also like to point out you're basically saying Inu x Kag can't happen because Inu x Kik happened way before it did. After all, there were tons of hints for it before Kagome was even born.

Did I hear just hear a bell? Cuz u dun got school'd f00.

<_<

Were you a Pokeshipper before, that quit Pokeshipping, and started supporting Advanceshipping? If yes, why did you become an Advanceshipper?

Nope. Disliked Pokeshipping since Kanto.

CyberCubed
6th November 2005, 3:24 AM
PokeShipping. It's impossible to erase so many hints, it's never been done before.

Nobody is saying that all those Pokeshipping hints would be forgotten. Most if not all Advanceshippers realize there were a ton of Pokeshipping hints in the first series. Pokeshipping hints outnumber Advanceshipping hints basically 2:1. If we're going by just hints, Pokeshipping certainly has more, and much more blatant ones.

But that was then, back in 1998-2000. This is now, 2003-2006. Pokemon Advance.

There's a big time gap, what the writers were originally planning then may not be what they're still writing now.

Devilrose
6th November 2005, 3:50 AM
Were you a Pokeshipper before, that quit Pokeshipping, and started supporting Advanceshipping? If yes, why did you become an Advanceshipper?

I was one of those silly little pokeshippers. You know, the kind that gave the ship its reputation...I was probably one of the worst though. Supported it only cause the people on the internet said so.

By the time the advance generation popped up I had long forgotten about the anime and pokeshipping in general, and by the time I decided to watch the series again I had already decided that I thought May and Ash would make a great couple...

dragonmaster5000
6th November 2005, 4:10 AM
Were you a Pokeshipper before, that quit Pokeshipping, and started supporting Advanceshipping? If yes, why did you become an Advanceshipper?


Nope. I never was a Pokeshipper, and never will be.

Satoshi
6th November 2005, 4:32 AM
When?
"Where For Out Thou Pokemon"

Why would she choose a friend over her own father unless May considers Ash as more than a friend? :o
She didn't choose Satoshi over her own father, she wanted both of them to win. >_>

That might be true, but has Ash ever done that to Misty, let alone any other girl before?
http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/018/016.jpeg

.......I rest my case. And Satoshi has done that to other girls sometimes, when he's promising to bring back their Pokemon that ran away and/or being stolen by Rocket-dan.

~Mist~
6th November 2005, 5:06 AM
Why did you stay loyal to Pokeshipping even after Misty left?

The question is, why should we not? Pokeshipping has shown the relationship between Ash and Misty. I of course, have lots of hope and I know many Pokeshippers who have so much hope it's not even funny. You see, these two shippings have their issues. Ash and May are more like a brother/sister type relationship in which Ash and Misty have something much more different. Okay, so they have similiar pokmeon. I don't understamd how this relates to the hints whatsoever. Besides, how would you support a ship if it doesn't have many hints as to Pokeshipping? True, that our ship hasn't been in the best conditions lately but that really doesn't stop any of us. We've got a whole new season at the Battle Frontier in Kanto. Can the writers make Misty return to the main cast again? Yes, it's possible if they decide to. If they were to convert to Advanceshipping, IMO, that would be very pointless. Then why would there be so many hints for Pokeshipping then all of a sudden turn over to Advanceshipping? Does that mean that they wasted time on Pokeshipping? We may infer that the writers are trying to plot something in the future and us Pokeshipper simply believe that it will happen. That's just our belief and Advanceshipping has their own beliefs.

wobbsalad
6th November 2005, 6:51 AM
I had some interest in Pokeshipping early on. I was even bitter when Misty departed. But all that vanished so very quickly, and I was an Advanceshipping convert seemingly all of a sudden.

Why? Of course, I could mention the character chemisty, but first and foremost, May is super good looking. A lot of males who watch the show identify easily with Ash, the hero--I'm in this group, and I'm fine with that--and we impart our own attractions onto our hero, and suddenly we're saying "Misty who?". Sure, Misty was attractive, and sure, it seems backhanded and fickle to just jump ships so suddenly, but what can I say? People outgrow other people. It's happened to me in real life, and it happened here, too.

dragonmaster5000
6th November 2005, 7:07 AM
She didn't choose Satoshi over her own father, she wanted both of them to win. >_>


Even if May did want both of them to win, family should always come before friends, yet May values both Ash and her father equally. That could mean something.




.......I rest my case. And Satoshi has done that to other girls sometimes, when he's promising to bring back their Pokemon that ran away and/or being stolen by Rocket-dan.


You do know that this was a banned episode, right? Besides, if you don't consider the scene from the Donphan episode a hint, then you can't consider this a hint either. :)

+Yuffa+
6th November 2005, 7:12 AM
Why did you stay loyal to Pokeshipping even after Misty left?

I got attached. It's one of those things I can't stop clinging to because I've already started to be..uhh..drawn to it, just because I've watched it since the beggining, supported it since the beggining and believed that someday, soon, this ship which intrigued me so much, would happen.

I just can't wake up one morning and suddenly say, "Wow, I think I like Advanceshipping. Screw Pokeshipping!!!111" 8D

I think I've been emotionally linked to Pokeshipping. ._. Wow...

*sees people slowly moving away from her*

EDIT: Yeah..I would just like to say something..


What's with the clothes, the no# of letters in names and the pokemon thing? How does that prove that Ash/May= Romance couple? o_O; If the pokemon thing is true, then that must mean, Ritchie is also a love interest for Ash. Take a look at the Pikachus!

Holy cow...You guys are really looking way too deep into this.

Personally, I think the writers interjected May in the first place, because they wanted a heroine in the show, who Pokemon fan girls can look up to. Unlike Misty, she was a travelling companion for Ash and she did not really participate in battles. She supported Ash and cheered him on. That was Misty's main role in the anime. May, however, is a pokemon coordinator and this requires her to participate in contests.

Yes, both girls are two of Ash's friends. But, I don't really want to see either reduced as just a "romantic interest" for Ash, especially May, since she is co-starring Pokemon. Therefore, people should not assume that May's only placed in the show because she's a potential girlfriend for Ash. The same goes for Misty too. But, we all know that Ash and her have history together. That was crystal-clear.

Swifty
6th November 2005, 7:35 AM
Based on the arguments I've heard for and against advanceshipping, I'm not very sure if it has a very good chance of becoming reality. The fact is that I believe Ash and May really do look like an excellent match. However, if advanceshipping was intended to exist, the writers should have gone out of their way already to to bring it on par with the affection Misty had for Ash earlier in Pocket Monsters. Why don't they give Ash and May their own Wynaut episode? Why not Wynaut?!

Hell, the more I think about it, the way they've been treating Ash throughout Advanced Generation is that they intend to pair him up with no one at all now if orangeshipping is to be taken into account.

But all in all, I think the screen writers at ShoPro are the most ADD ridden, most fickle, and simply the lamest television show writers I have ever observed in a TV series. GS Ball-gate ("Damn. What the hell do with do now with a golden pokeball?"), Johto Misty-gate ("Writing Misty being angry is haaaaaaard-uh"), orangeshipping-gate ("I know! Let's pair Misty with a character she barely has any background with! The fans will love that!"), rocketshipping-gate ("Yeah, we gave it a go in the Ono manga... And then we all of us here at ShoPro got whipped by our respective significant other."), and Watergate ("Let's break into the Democratic Party Headquarters and...") Wait. The Republicans were responsible for Watergate. :D

Thereby, I decree a simple logic algorithm written in C++ when one encounters a shipping that looks like it's canon:



if(shipping[i].canon == true) // If this particular shipping is canon
shipping[i].canon = false; // ...It's not going to be canon


It looks like it's going to be canon, it smells like it's going to be canon, but dude, it's probably not going to be canon. :redface:

As for why I'm still supporting pokeshipping? I dunno. Old habits die hard. I was twelve when I first watched Pokemon back when it was still syndicated and not broadcast nationally through the WB affiliates. Although I thought it would be cute if Ash and Misty became a couple, the fact is that I wasn't really convinced of it until Ghost Of The Maiden's Peak broadcasted which verified to me that the writers enjoyed playing with the idea. That's what made me a fan and subsequently, later episodes like "Misty Meets Her Match" affirmed my suspicions.

So, Misty is gone now, so what do I do? Three months ago, I hadn't watched a single episode of Pokemon or Advance Generation since I was thirteen years old. Now I'm nineteen and in college. I can owe Wikipedia for bringing me back into the anime. Being bored at work one day, I browsed the "Pokemon" entry and looked up Misty to see that she had been dropped from the main cast while the relationship between her and Ash was still unresolved and unfulfilled without much closure or satisfaction of Misty's desires. I think a longing for the past is what emerged, something that wanted to go back to my days before my stressful high school years that make me still support the Ash and Misty pairing.

So there you have it. Pokeshippers are shippers who can't let go of the past. Make fun of us how you will.

But on another note, I can't help but feel sorry for Misty. I hate it when a character harbors an affection for another person but yet in the end, it's all futile and gone with a whimper and not a bang. At the end of Pokemon, Misty leaves with a heavy heart, still liking Ash, but being forced to leave at the whims of her sisters, and if you break the fourth wall, the whims of the writers. There's no satisfaction, no fulfillment, and no closure for Misty which makes it depressing in the end for pokeshipping. The adjective "bittersweet" and the episode title of "Gotta Catch You Later" is synonymous in this regard. I just hope that the Ash and Misty subplot will someday rear it's ugly head again, even if it's just a simple acknowledgement of Misty's past feelings for Ash, whatever they may be right now...

Roses Ablaze
6th November 2005, 5:42 PM
I prefer PokeShipping just because I like Misty better. Don't really think either will ever be resolved.

cold_katanagirl
6th November 2005, 5:46 PM
I think it'd be funny if neither ship happened, since everyone seems so bent on "If this don't happen, then this WILL happen". But anyway.


Does that mean that they wasted time on Pokeshipping?Basically.

After reading the Adanceshipping hint list or whatever (couldn't be arsed enough to do it last time), 90% of those are just proving they're clones.

*sigh*

Satoshi
6th November 2005, 7:15 PM
You do know that this was a banned episode, right? Besides, if you don't consider the scene from the Donphan episode a hint, then you can't consider this a hint either. :)
Only the US/UK dude. And who says I consider that a hint? I was just pointing out that he has put his hands on Kasumi's shoulders. :O

CyberCubed
6th November 2005, 7:20 PM
True, although it was for a completely different reason. That was just to push Misty foward to Moe since he was saying that she stole his boat.

Swifty
6th November 2005, 10:08 PM
On a more light hearted note:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Swifti/ag_122_kasumi15.gif

Stolened from Pokesho.

cold_katanagirl
6th November 2005, 10:15 PM
Noticed Misty has all higher stats. What's up with that?

Meganium Ex
6th November 2005, 10:15 PM
On a more light hearted note:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Swifti/ag_122_kasumi15.gif

Stolened from Pokesho.
Wow, isn't that hilerious? They are fighting for Ash...how cute!

dragonmaster5000
7th November 2005, 12:00 AM
True, although it was for a completely different reason. That was just to push Misty foward to Moe since he was saying that she stole his boat.


So that's what really happened? Alright thanks Cybercubed! This just proves my point that the scene from the Donphan episode was a hint.

Satoshi
7th November 2005, 12:12 AM
So that's what really happened? Alright thanks Cybercubed! This just proves my point that the scene from the Donphan episode was a hint.
The scene from the Donphan episode was no hint. Stuff like putting hands on shoulders aren't hints. >_>

dragonmaster5000
7th November 2005, 12:23 AM
The scene from the Donphan episode was no hint. Stuff like putting hands on shoulders aren't hints. >_>

Let's see now...

Ash puts his hands on her shoulders
He stares deeply into her eyes
There is touching music in the background
Ash is comforting May and trying to do what's best for her
May is staring back


Seems like a hint to me.

Satoshi
7th November 2005, 12:29 AM
Let's see now...

Ash puts his hands on her shoulders
He stares deeply into her eyes
There is touching music in the background
Ash is comforting May and trying to do what's best for her
May is staring back


Seems like a hint to me.
Satoshi does that to Pikachu all the time, but is that considered a hint? No.

If that's true, then these must be hints to!

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/004.jpeg

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/096.jpeg

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/5987/imagesaaml4je.jpg

And if staring with touching music are hints too, then this must be a hint too!

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/105.jpeg

....no.

cold_katanagirl
7th November 2005, 12:36 AM
Satoshi does that to Pikachu all the time, but is that considered a hint? No.

If that's true, then these must be hints to!

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/004.jpeg

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/096.jpeg

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/5987/imagesaaml4je.jpg

And if staring with touching music are hints too, then this must be a hint too!

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/105.jpeg

....no.You do know most of those are generally accepted as Pokeshpping hints right?

Kagome Higurashi
7th November 2005, 12:40 AM
One thing we could discuss is whether Ash was jealous in the Rudy episode, some don't seem to think so.
Err, I'm new, and I just wanted to say something about one of the hints...
Why does everyone consider the whole Ruby episode thing a hint? I mean, in the Japanese version of that episode (I can't remember the title and I'm too lazy to look), Rudy asked Misty to MARRY him. And the thing is, Misty considered it, and she was thinking about actually saying yes. Now personally, if she liked Ash at that time, why would she even consider it? I mean, she JUST met Rudy and was thinking about saying YES. She can't like Ash THAT much if she considers saying yes to someone she barely met, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to bash Pokeshipping (becuase I AM an Advanceshipper), but I personally think that's an Anti-Hint. There is no way you like someone for like a year and then some guy comes and asks you to marry him and then you say CONSIDER saying yes. But that's my opinion, and I'll bet ten bucks I'm gonna be flamed with things like "DONT DIS MISY AND ASHHH" or "ADVANCSHIPPING DONT HAVE ANY HINTS EITHER!!!!!!!!", which isn't true. I just wanted to say I consider that an Anti-Hint, and I wanted to see what Pokeshippers think about it.
That still doesn't make any since. Even if he did flatter her a lot, she still shouldn't fall for some guy she just met. She just seems to like other guys just because they're cute, and it doesn't seem like she likes Ash. And the thing with Danny, I don't think Ash got JEALOUS. I mean, if you're best friend payed more attention to a guy she just met (AGAIN), wouldn't you be upset that she ignored you? I don't consider that jealousy, I consider it... Misty having a crush on a cute guy. AND at the end, Misty was sorta sad Danny lost. But only a little. I think Misty gets to many crushes on random guys.

I think Ash was jealous of Rudy, but cold_katanagirl doesn't seem to think so.

cold_katanagirl
7th November 2005, 12:50 AM
.....

Oh. My. Sweet. @$%@#%#@%@#$. Crackerz.

That post. Has to die. Now. <____<

Satoshi
7th November 2005, 12:52 AM
You do know most of those are generally accepted as Pokeshpping hints right?
Well, the first three, I don't consider as hints. Satoshi (the character) was just doing that for good, plain fun. But whatever, you can think of that Donfan-episode thing as an Advanceshipping hint for all I care.

Personally, I don't think Satoshi will end up with either of them, even though I'm a Pokeshipper. Having a relationship doesn't seem to be on top of Satoshi's "to-do" list.

cold_katanagirl
7th November 2005, 12:57 AM
Well, I don't. But whatever, you can think of that Donfan-episode thing as an Advanceshipping hint for all I care.I didn't say I considered the Donphan thing a hint.

... WHY ISN'T THAT POST DEAD YET.

Satoshi
7th November 2005, 1:07 AM
I didn't say I considered the Donphan thing a hint.
I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Dragonmaster5000. O.O

And, one more thing, I don't think Advanceshipping would have a likely chance happening than Pokeshipping, because of it's lack of hints and all. It's seems more fanon than Pokeshipping.

But, at this point of the show, they both have a likely chance of never happening.

Red-Kun
7th November 2005, 1:08 AM
i don't know why do i like both O_o really!

CyberCubed
7th November 2005, 1:09 AM
Satoshi, you're comparing two completely different scenarios.

One is ghost Ash teasing Misty in a playful manner. The other is Ash comforting May for almost missing her chance to register for the GF.

Not to mention, most Pokeshippers I know count the scenes where Misty grabs onto Ash as hints, not to mention blushing over him.

Satoshi
7th November 2005, 1:23 AM
Satoshi, you're comparing two completely different scenarios.

One is ghost Ash teasing Misty in a playful manner. The other is Ash comforting May for almost missing her chance to register for the GF.
Well, actually, I was pointing out that hand contact can't be justified as hints "persay", it has to be a little more specific, but otherwise, yeah, it can be hints.

Not to mention, most Pokeshippers I know count the scenes where Misty grabs onto Ash as hints, not to mention blushing over him.
Well, I do count those as hints, just not the one where Satoshi was carrying Kasumi in ghost-form.

STJ
7th November 2005, 11:37 AM
I know that this is off-topic, but what scene and episode is this from?

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/indigo/023/105.jpeg

+Yuffa+
7th November 2005, 8:07 PM
^Tower of Terror, me thinks. When Ash wakes up. Misty was obviously glad that he's not dead, afterall. And, she's been crying.. (Psers go, "AWWW..")

articuno_trumps_all
8th November 2005, 7:09 AM
What's with the clothes, the no# of letters in names and the pokemon thing? How does that prove that Ash/May= Romance couple? o_O; If the pokemon thing is true, then that must mean, Ritchie is also a love interest for Ash. Take a look at the Pikachus!
Oh there are plenty of other reasons to support Richie x Ash besides just that.^^

Meganium Ex
9th November 2005, 12:28 AM
Uh, I hate to be the one to say this but this is Pokeshipping vs Advanceshipping, Leaugeshipping is not involved in this. So, let's leave the Leaugesipping to another thread, 'kay?

articuno_trumps_all
9th November 2005, 3:47 AM
Uh, I hate to be the one to say this but this is Pokeshipping vs Advanceshipping, Leaugeshipping is not involved in this. So, let's leave the Leaugesipping to another thread, 'kay?
I was commenting on what somebody said about leagueshipping, so get off your high-horse PLZ. LOL.

Meganium Ex
9th November 2005, 1:28 PM
I was commenting on what somebody said about leagueshipping, so get off your high-horse PLZ. LOL.
Whatever -_-

Anyways, here are 2 topics, again 1 for Advanceshipping, and 1 for Pokeshipping.

Pokeshippers:
You do support Pokeshipping, but do you like May as a charecter, just think she dosen't belong with Ash?

Advanceshipping:
You do support Advanceshipping, but do you like Misty as a charecter, just think she dosen't belong with Ash?

Misty-Fan-Forever
9th November 2005, 3:30 PM
You do support Pokeshipping, but do you like May as a charecter, just think she dosen't belong with Ash?
I love May. She's really an awesome charcter. Although Misty's my fave girl character, May is definantly my second. It's good to see someone bubbly on the show. I don't like her with Ash because I just don't see a spark and my love for Pokeshipping is too strong. So I love May, just not with Ash.

Kiori
10th November 2005, 12:47 AM
I love Pokeshipping because of stuffs. Yeah...fic stuffs. But..eh... *cough* *cough*

Now, I'm just gonna argue with some "hints" that were claim from a list given here that I want to give an opinion to. I may not say it to all of them since I think Satoshi gave more of a concluding point to it.


3. Ash and May meet a couple who say Ash and May are only fighting to hide their "true" feelings for each other. Just because they meet a couple who said that doesn't mean that it's a hint. Sure one couple might think that, but if they don't exactly react to it in an exaggreated or blushing manner, then, imo, it's not a hint. At all. Then again, it's to the eye of the beholder, so, imo, this is not something that can be claimed a hint unless its reason cannot be fought anymore.


4. In the episode "King of the Forbidden Forest! Venasaur!" and “Tag battle! Ash vs. May!” Ash both saved May within a period of 15 episodes. In AG 115 Ash saves May once again from a Donphan who heads for May. Who says saving someone is a hint? Then Ash saving Pikachu back in the old Kanto episode means Ash is in love with Pikachu? Ftw? o_O Most of the Pokeshippers here (and Contestshippers I might add) do agree that just saving someone doesn't mean a hint. The hint is based on the context of it as Swiftly said back in the Advanceshipping vs. Contestshipping thread.


5. In "Get the Show on the Road" May was about to say something to Ash about her bike, then looked at him and said "OH, well" I don't exactly get why that is a hint. oO "One's point of view differs from another". Right. So unless this really can really kick out of all the possibilities of what she was thinking of him when she said that, I don't think it can be officially claimed as a hint.


7. Quite at the end of "Tag Battle! Ash vs. May?!", when they battle together against TR, their team work is perfect What did the Tag Battle couple say before? A strong relation between the two trainers is needed to win in a tag battle

That means Ash and Misty will be together in the end. They've battled against Team Rocket several times in the past, more than Ash and May I think. So shouldn't that logic be more effective towards the future of Pokeshipping? I don't think that hint was even listed in the Pokeshipping ones since it was not considered as a hint at all. So I don't see a point why it should be listed in there either. oO


- Episode Tag battle! Ash vs May: At the end of the episode they start to compliment each other.
Means nothing towards a possibility of a relationship towards two characters.

And as I've said in the very beginning, the rest are already reasoned with Satoshi's post, imo. lol

Oh, and as for the current topic, sure I love May, but imo, her character would just seem...weird? if she were to end with Ash.

dragonmaster5000
10th November 2005, 1:02 AM
Who says saving someone is a hint?

Well, many Pokeshippers I've seen seem to consider Misty saving Ash (Second Movie) a Pokeshipping hint, so I don't see why Ash saving May can't be considered an Advanceshipping hint (no offense to Pokeshippers who don't consider the Misty saving Ash thing a hint).

Anyway, about the current topic, it's not that I don't like Misty (I'm an Advanceshipper)...it's just I wish she wouldn't yell at someone every 5 minutes. Again, no offense meant to Misty-fans.

Mizu Kasumi
10th November 2005, 11:59 PM
I actually like both shippings. But definetly Pokeshipping more. I love all three characters. But I just think Misty and Ash has deeper feelings, while Ash and May has a close friend/sister-brother like feelings. But overall, both shippings are possible. But I just think Pokeshipping is most likely...

Satoshi
12th November 2005, 1:11 AM
Well, many Pokeshippers I've seen seem to consider Misty saving Ash (Second Movie) a Pokeshipping hint, so I don't see why Ash saving May can't be considered an Advanceshipping hint (no offense to Pokeshippers who don't consider the Misty saving Ash thing a hint).
Just because some Pokeshippers consider that a hint, doesn't mean it actually is. O_o;

EDIT: And Kasumi saving Satoshi was of a more passionate reason (The lines she said before she saved him) than Satoshi saving Haruka from falling of a cliff, etc. Furrura wanted to save Satoshi, but Kasumi refused and told her she should save Satoshi since he was her "burden". Whenever Satoshi saves Haruka, he's the only one that could and/or since he's the main character, which gives him more screentime (The Houen Fushigidane episode).

Anyway, about the current topic, it's not that I don't like Misty (I'm an Advanceshipper)...it's just I wish she wouldn't yell at someone every 5 minutes. Again, no offense meant to Misty-fans.
That's why the writers killed out her firery personality, and what does she get? The boot. --;

You do support Pokeshipping, but do you like May as a charecter, just think she dosen't belong with Ash?

Of course I like Haruka. She brings more to the show than any other supporting characters (Kasumi, Takeshi, Masato, etc.). I just don't ship her with Satoshi, although it's fun to ship her with other people. :)

dragonmaster5000
12th November 2005, 3:22 AM
EDIT: And Kasumi saving Satoshi was of a more passionate reason (The lines she said before she saved him) than Satoshi saving Haruka from falling of a cliff, etc. Furrura wanted to save Satoshi, but Kasumi refused and told her she should save Satoshi since he was her "burden".

Yeah, Misty did say those lines before saving Ash...just like in the Forbidden Forest Episode when Ash was constantly yelling about how someone has to save May (this took place after May was captured and the rest of the gang was "patiently" waiting) before something bad happens to her. After that, Ash goes to save May. That's just as passionate as the scene from the Second Movie, if not more passionate. :) Here's the episode guide to that episode:

Episode guide: http://www.serebii.net/anime/epiguide/houen/349.shtml

Credit goes to Serebii.net.

Swifty
12th November 2005, 4:08 AM
Yeah, Misty did say those lines before saving Ash...just like in the Forbidden Forest Episode when Ash was constantly yelling about how someone has to save May (this took place after May was captured and the rest of the gang was "patiently" waiting) before something bad happens to her. After that, Ash goes to save May. That's just as passionate as the scene from the Second Movie, if not more passionate. :) Here's the episode guide to that episode:

Episode guide: http://www.serebii.net/anime/epiguide/houen/349.shtml

Credit goes to Serebii.net: http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml
Do you not realize the context of these two quotes?

"Ash isn't alone because he got me" (Dub) or "He is my burden" (Original)

Considering those quotes were said in front of Melody, a person who had been bugging the hell out of Misty with her fancying Ash, that scene you mentioned in the Forbidden Forest episode is no where near parallel to that scene in Revelation Lugia.

Satoshi
12th November 2005, 4:28 AM
Yeah, Misty did say those lines before saving Ash...just like in the Forbidden Forest Episode when Ash was constantly yelling about how someone has to save May (this took place after May was captured and the rest of the gang was "patiently" waiting) before something bad happens to her. After that, Ash goes to save May. That's just as passionate as the scene from the Second Movie, if not more passionate. :)
Can you not tell the difference between passionance and sheer ignorance? Satoshi was yelling because his friend was in danger, and those guards didn't let him and his friends in to save her, so he lost his temper and went in there, while Kasumi said that Satoshi was her "burden" with compassion in front of Fururra, the girl that she was jealous of, and refused to play the ocarina (flute ?) and went in to save Satoshi. That's much different and more meaningful then that little "Fushigidane Episode" thing.

Credit goes to Serebii.net: http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml
Why did you link to the site when we're on it's forum? :/ You've could've just given credit without that unneeded link to the main site.....

dragonmaster5000
12th November 2005, 4:53 AM
Why did you link to the site when we're on it's forum? :/ You've could've just given credit without that unneeded link to the main site.....


Sorry, my bad. I'll fix it, and after I'm done thinking, I'll answer your argument.

Edit: Okay, I'm ready to answer Satoshi's argument. Let's see...Ash was angry at the guards for not letting them in before he even decided to break in by himself, meaning he wanted to save May that much all along instead of during the waiting scene.

Satoshi
12th November 2005, 5:16 AM
Edit: Okay, I'm ready to answer Satoshi's argument. Let's see...Ash was angry at the guards for not letting them in before he even decided to break in by himself, meaning he wanted to save May that much all along instead of during the waiting scene.
I'm talking about things that are passionate that happens before the with the savings, not stuff that happens before the savings. -_-; It wasn't passionate in any way. The way Kasumi was talking to Fururra was way more passionate than that. Like I said, Satoshi losted his temper because the guards didn't let them in to save Haruka, so he snapped and broke in. Satoshi was being ignorant, not passionate.

And Satoshi was in the waiting scene, he just got impatient and broke in the gate to save Haruka, Takeshi and Masato did that too, they were climbing it, but they didn't have time to climb all the way, since the guards were there before they climbed up, so Satoshi was the only one that made it.

Jo-Jo
12th November 2005, 5:23 AM
I don't remember Ash being any more worried about May or insistant on rescuing her than Brock and Max. Weren't they all eager to get her out of there? And didn't they all defy the guards by trying to climb over the wall?

Satoshi
12th November 2005, 5:26 AM
I don't remember Ash being any more worried about May or insistant on rescuing her than Brock and Max. Weren't they all eager to get her out of there? And didn't they all defy the guards by trying to climb over the wall?
Yes, which I stated in my last post.

Shigeru-kun
12th November 2005, 5:33 AM
I don't remember Ash being any more worried about May or insistant on rescuing her than Brock and Max. Weren't they all eager to get her out of there? And didn't they all defy the guards by trying to climb over the wall?
Actually, even though Masato and Takeshi wanted to save Haruka as well, Satoshi was the only one to really take matters into his own hands. While the other two just sat there like they were ready to give up, he actually jumped up and pretty much led the way.

Now, true, this really isn't a solid hint, but in an Advanceshipper's eyes it's rather nice to see.

EDIT: Gomen, Satoshi pretty much covered that area. I was more in the mood to answer Jo-jo that I missed it though. Either way, it still comes down to "awww...ain't that cute?"

dragonmaster5000
12th November 2005, 6:39 AM
Actually, even though Masato and Takeshi wanted to save Haruka as well, Satoshi was the only one to really take matters into his own hands. While the other two just sat there like they were ready to give up, he actually jumped up and pretty much led the way.

EXACTLY! That's exactly what I was trying to explain in my argument! Finally, someone understands what I'm trying to say. I guess I have to work on my explaining skills...XD. Even though Max and Brock both wanted to save May, they only did actually try to save her after Ash decided to take matters into his own hands.

Satoshi
12th November 2005, 5:42 PM
EXACTLY! That's exactly what I was trying to explain in my argument! Finally, someone understands what I'm trying to say. I guess I have to work on my explaining skills...XD. Even though Max and Brock both wanted to save May, they only did actually try to save her after Ash decided to take matters into his own hands.
Have you ignored everything I just previously said? Masato and Takeshi did put matters into their own hands (or at least tried to), they were climbing the wall with Satoshi, but failed and got caught by the guards, so Satoshi was the only one able to save Haruka, which I've explained in over in my last two post already ~.

And he has to put matters into his own hands, he's the main character, so that gives him more screentime ~. The way Kasumi saved Satoshi was way more passionate and understanding than the writers letting Satoshi hog the screentime. There's a difference between a hint and a saving of a friend, and there was a difference between Kasumi saving Satoshi and Satoshi saving Haruka.

Saving is not considered as a hint, but the reason for it is an exception. The reason for Satoshi saving Haruka is because he's the main character, the hero, and the hero always save his friends and/or something else in anime, but when Kasumi saved Satoshi in Revelation Lugia, she did it because she considered him as her "burden". So think outside the box before considering something a hint.

DEMONCAMERUPT
13th November 2005, 8:16 AM
Have you ignored everything I just previously said? Masato and Takeshi did put matters into their own hands (or at least tried to), they were climbing the wall with Satoshi, but failed and got caught by the guards, so Satoshi was the only one able to save Haruka, which I've explained in over in my last two post already ~.

And he has to put matters into his own hands, he's the main character, so that gives him more screentime ~. The way Kasumi saved Satoshi was way more passionate and understanding than the writers letting Satoshi hog the screentime. There's a difference between a hint and a saving of a friend, and there was a difference between Kasumi saving Satoshi and Satoshi saving Haruka.

Saving is not considered as a hint, but the reason for it is an exception. The reason for Satoshi saving Haruka is because he's the main character, the hero, and the hero always save his friends and/or something else in anime, but when Kasumi saved Satoshi in Revelation Lugia, she did it because she considered him as her "burden". So think outside the box before considering something a hint.

so many good arguments like the one from you Satoshi but in the end you have to stop and look at the characters like i did.

Misty- has known Ash longer, always argued with him, and while Ash likes bug pokemon she hates the buggers.

May- gets along with Ash better, argued with only a couple of times and isn;'t afriad of the bug types like Misty. hell she has a bug, Beutifly i believe.

so from that can you tell which girl is better for Ash? I didn't think so.

Satoshi
13th November 2005, 6:41 PM
so many good arguments like the one from you Satoshi but in the end you have to stop and look at the characters like i did.
This is a debate, is it not? :o

Misty- has known Ash longer, always argued with him, and while Ash likes bug pokemon she hates the buggers.

May- gets along with Ash better, argued with only a couple of times and isn;'t afriad of the bug types like Misty. hell she has a bug, Beutifly i believe.

so from that can you tell which girl is better for Ash? I didn't think so.
What the f*cken hell has being afraid of bugs have something to do with being good with someone? Thats like saying you can't marry someone just because he/she hates your most favorite dish, pasta. You know, that's the most funniest thing I've ever heard since somebody said "Misty can't be with Ash since she wears overalls!", but this just takes the cake.

And if you are debating on the similarities, then Kasumi has alot of similarities to Satoshi. Their arigent, they want to be a master of something (Kasumi=Water Master, Satoshi=Pokemon Master), they like to fight with each other, etc.

But does that mean Kasumi and Satoshi are meant for each other? No. Satoshi and Takeshi like riceballs, but does that mean they love eachother? No. So don't compare little (silly ? ) stuff like that.

And they argue alot. Big deal. Don't you remember the saying that good ol Nurse Joy said? "They say that people who fight, really care for eachother." So saying that they don't belong together because they fight alot is stupid and ignorant.

Mizu Kasumi
13th November 2005, 8:30 PM
Um guys, I hope this doesn't turn into a big argument... They're both great girls for Ash, let him choose. ^^

dragonmaster5000
14th November 2005, 12:38 AM
What the f*cken hell has being afraid of bugs have something to do with being good with someone? Thats like saying you can't marry someone just because he/she hates your most favorite dish, pasta. You know, that's the most funniest thing I've ever heard since somebody said "Misty can't be with Ash since she wears overalls!", but this just takes the cake.

And if you are debating on the similarities, then Kasumi has alot of similarities to Satoshi. Their arigent, they want to be a master of something (Kasumi=Water Master, Satoshi=Pokemon Master), they like to fight with each other, etc.

But does that mean Kasumi and Satoshi are meant for each other? No. Satoshi and Takeshi like riceballs, but does that mean they love eachother? No. So don't compare little (silly ? ) stuff like that.

And they argue alot. Big deal. Don't you remember the saying that good ol Nurse Joy said? "They say that people who fight, really care for eachother." So saying that they don't belong together because they fight alot is stupid and ignorant.


Yes, Misty did want to be a Water Master, but that was hardly mentioned at all while she was still on the show. Also, Ash is no longer as arrogant as he was in Kanto. Third, the saying you mentioned really makes no sense at all once you compare it to common sense. How can two people have feelings for each other if they constantly fight and disagree over things? Like I said, that saying makes no sense.


This is a debate, is it not? :o

LOL, at least we can finally agree on SOMETHING! :)

Satoshi
14th November 2005, 12:48 AM
How can two people have feelings for each other if they constantly fight and disagree over things? Like I said, that saying makes no sense.
They might fight alot because they hide their feelings (or Kasumi trying to, because girl-chasing is the last thing on Satoshi's mind) for each other (which is the whole meaning of that saying). And some people who fight and disagree with each other means they care for one another. Like Kasumi poking fun of Satoshi at his battling skills, the reason might be to drive Satoshi to work harder at being the best, thus, that is caring for him. And if you disagree, then you're condradicting one of your "hints" too. ._.;

"Loving" somebody doesn't mean you act lovey-dovey with them and getting into their pants all the freakin time, you can love someone while you argue with them alot.

Yes, Misty did want to be a Water Master, but that was hardly mentioned at all while she was still on the show.
Yes, but she still wanted to be a Water Master.

Also, Ash is no longer as arrogant as he was in Kanto.
Yes, Satoshi isn't as arrogant anymore, which means he's still similar to Kasumi, since they are both are calm and cool in this generation we call advanced.

CyberCubed
14th November 2005, 12:52 AM
While I agree that Misty teasing/arguing with Ash was because she liked him and wanted to get his attention, how do you know Ash even KNEW what he was doing when arguing back?

Ash was arguing with her because of whatever various comments she made, it was never apparent that Ash enjoyed arguing with her.

Satoshi
14th November 2005, 1:03 AM
Ash was arguing with her because of whatever various comments she made, it was never apparent that Ash enjoyed arguing with her.
Exactly, which I stated in my last post. Girls are the last thing on Satoshi's priorities.

dragonmaster5000
14th November 2005, 1:21 AM
They might fight alot because they hide their feelings (or Kasumi trying to, because girl-chasing is the last thing on Satoshi's mind) for each other (which is the whole meaning of that saying). And some people who fight and disagree with each other means they care for one another. Like Kasumi poking fun of Satoshi at his battling skills, the reason might be to drive Satoshi to work harder at being the best, thus, that is caring for him. And if you disagree, then you're condradicting one of your "hints" too. ._.;


Are you implying that if two people are actually nice to each other (Like Ash and May), then they really hate each other? Of course that isn't true, but you seem to be saying that with this particular argumnet.

*Twilight Night*
14th November 2005, 2:29 AM
Exactly, which I stated in my last post. Girls are the last thing on Satoshi's priorities.

So, is one sided. :D Fine with me.

So your talking about Kasumi's hints that we already know about.

That saying doesn't always work. (Mind you, I put always in italics) So if I suddenly fight with a girl because she's dissing the heck out of me and want her dead, I care for her? No. I just want her not to mess with me. Or, if a boy is so annoying and acting like an idiot that it actually gets on my nerves (which is a Kasumi type attitude in Kanto) I'm yelling at him because I care? No. Just to shut him up. You can't read a character's mind on what she/he actually meant by their actions.

It might have been the case in fights they got in sometimes, but not in every one. So I think this works halfway, if not less.

And we won't be condradicting our "hints". As far as I remember, Satoshi and Haruka only had like one real fight...? (Can't remember) I won't be naming the eppie, cause I'm sure by now we know what that is. And it wasn't the fact that we took the fight as a hint, we only took the Andy and Oscar accusation and the characters' reaction in denying as a contribution in an inlook of a hint. (Pokeshippers took the first accusation of Satoshi and Kasumi as a hint in the beginning, even if they didn't blush until the second. At least from what I've seen. Been a long time, so correct me if wrong) So some Advanceshippers took it as one, some as what I mentioned above or whatever way. Depends on opinion. But why wouldnt we? With all the love talk and battle of the sexes going on...

And since pokemon is supposed to be just right out there for us to get, that we don't have to rack our brains for, kind of implies stuff, doesn't it?

The rest are either drabbles or disagreements the two leads have or that one part when May was acting a grumpy hag on everyone, so...

Satoshi
14th November 2005, 4:04 AM
Are you implying that if two people are actually nice to each other (Like Ash and May), then they really hate each other? Of course that isn't true, but you seem to be saying that with this particular argumnet.
When did I say that? Please stop twisting whatever people say into something they didn't say.

Yes, people that are nice to each other can care for each other, but did I didn't say that that wasn't true, I was just explaining that people who fight and argue alot can care for each other (anime-wise, that is).

So, is one sided. :D Fine with me.
Every shipping with Satoshi involved is one-sided (to me, anyways). >_>;

That saying doesn't always work. (Mind you, I put always in italics) So if I suddenly fight with a girl because she's dissing the heck out of me and want her dead, I care for her? No. I just want her not to mess with me. Or, if a boy is so annoying and acting like an idiot that it actually gets on my nerves (which is a Kasumi type attitude in Kanto) I'm yelling at him because I care? No. Just to shut him up. You can't read a character's mind on what she/he actually meant by their actions.
You're comparing real life to a fictional anime. Yes, in real life, you'd knock him/her upside the head, but when it's anime, it's a whole different story. (Fushigi Yuugi ? )

And we won't be condradicting our "hints". As far as I remember, Satoshi and Haruka only had like one real fight...? (Can't remember) I won't be naming the eppie, cause I'm sure by now we know what that is. And it wasn't the fact that we took the fight as a hint, we only took the Andy and Oscar accusation and the characters' reaction in denying as a contribution in an inlook of a hint. (Pokeshippers took the first accusation of Satoshi and Kasumi as a hint in the beginning, even if they didn't blush until the second. At least from what I've seen. Been a long time, so correct me if wrong) So some Advanceshippers took it as one, some as what I mentioned above or whatever way. Depends on opinion.
And I'm saying that to the people that consider it a hint. :o

*Twilight Night*
14th November 2005, 5:22 AM
You're comparing real life to a fictional anime. Yes, in real life, you'd knock him/her upside the head, but when it's anime, it's a whole different story. (Fushigi Yuugi ? )

So, anime in general doesn't imply to real life situations? :confused: So what is Kasumi smacking/yelling at Satoshi in the first episodes about?

Fushigi Yuugi is not Pokemon. Two different plots and actions, different characters and personalities.

PokeProphet
14th November 2005, 5:47 PM
Misty- has known Ash longer, always argued with him, and while Ash likes bug pokemon she hates the buggers.

May- gets along with Ash better, argued with only a couple of times and isn;'t afriad of the bug types like Misty. hell she has a bug, Beutifly i believe.

Ah, so if two people both like bugs, they're a possible match? Congratulations, you just became an Ash & Bugsy shipper, and a Leagueshipper since Richie has a Butterfree. i believe.

Oh, and of course, two people can never get together when one likes something that the other doesn't. That's why I'm looking for a girl that likes beer, football and naked women. *sigh*


Are you implying that if two people are actually nice to each other (Like Ash and May), then they really hate each other?
No he isn't. He's saying that if two people fight, it doesn't mean that they don't like/have feelings/love each other. Which is true. I've had a lot of fights with the people I love. But that's not because I don't love them. As a matter a fact, it's because I love them, because I feel hurt when they say something bad about me, because I care about how they feel for me. I rarely fight with people I don't like (tend to ignore them) and if I do, I even enjoy it.

BTW, I get the feeling that the Misty and Ash fighting thing is taken way out of context here, to a point where they don't even like each other. Which would be a load of BS. They treavelled which each other for a few years on a voluntary bases, they've mentioned they were friends on several occasions, Ash even cried when Misty had to leave the show (something he didn't do for Brock, and I don't see anyone here arguing that Ash and Brock don't get along).


Every shipping with Satoshi involved is one-sided (to me, anyways). >_>;
That's the whole point. If one of the shippings involving Ash was two-sided, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not a lot of Pokeshippers claim Ash/Misty is canon, but we all believe that, because of various moments in the anime, it is most likely to become canon.


So, anime in general doesn't imply to real life situations? :confused:
Do you know a group of kids in it's early teens that would survive for several months in a world inhabited by vicious creatures and followed by two criminals?


So what is Kasumi smacking/yelling at Satoshi in the first episodes about?
That's about her being genuinly angry with him for that time. I don't think Satoshi meant that nothing in the anime applies to real life. But the boy-girl fighting each other thing is used a lot (not just in anime, but in a lot of fictional romances, ask Jo-Jo for a list of English literature), so signify something going on between said boy and girl.

Personally, I'm starting to think that the writers are going to pull a Samurai-Pizza-Cats on us.

Jo-Jo
16th November 2005, 12:12 AM
But the boy-girl fighting each other thing is used a lot (not just in anime, but in a lot of fictional romances, ask Jo-Jo for a list of English literature), so signify something going on between said boy and girl.
*pops up* You rang?

Anne of Green Gables, Bridget Jones's Diary, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cardcaptors, Clueless, Ella Enchanted, Emma, Friends, Guys and Dolls, Harry Potter, Kiss Me Kate, Kissing Jessica Stein, Inuyasha, Miss Congeniality, Moonlighting, Mort, Much Ado About Nothing, My Fair Lady, Oklahoma!, Pride And Prejudice, Ranma 1/2, Sailor Moon, Scrubs, Slayers, Star Wars, Sweet Home Alabama, The Philadelphia Story, The Taming Of The Shrew, Tom Sawyer, Two Weeks' Notice, What's Up Doc?, When Harry Met Sally, etc.

I will never, ever understand the argument that when two characters bicker all the time, it means that they can't possibly be interested in each other. In my experience, it usually means the exact opposite. I find it especially baffling when people bring up Ash's stormy relationship with Misty and claim it as evidence against him fancying her, when we know as a certainty that she fancied him. Logically speaking, if two characters are constantly at each other's throats, and there have been confirmed romantic feelings on one side, it only makes sense to conclude that the feelings are mutual.

In fact, since I'm on the subject, I've always found it rather bizarre that everyone acknowledges that Misty used to like Ash, but hardly anyone thinks that Ash liked her back. IMO, you have to apply a huge double standard to get Misty-->Ash but not Ash-->Misty. How does any the following make sense, then?:

Misty always overreacts whenever anyone guesses that she likes Ash. We know that she does this because she likes him and is sensitive to the idea of other people figuring it out. However, Ash always overreacts in the exact same manner whenever anyone guesses that he likes Misty - but there's no way that proves that he likes her!

Misty gets in a funk every time other girls such as Melody, Macey and Bianca pay attention to Ash. We know she does this because she wants him for herself and is jealous. However, Ash always gets in a funk every time he suspects Misty might be interested in other guys such as Fiorello Cappuccino, Danny and Rudy - but there's no chance that he could possibly be jealous of any of them!

The dubbers of the series talk about Ash and Misty having a mutual crush on each other. We know for a fact that at the very least they are correct in Misty's case. However, even though they got half of the pairing right, this doesn't suggest in any way that they could possibly be anything other than brain-dead morons, and there's certainly no way that they could be right about Ash returning the feelings!

Yeah, I don't get it.

Kagome Higurashi
16th November 2005, 2:56 AM
A boy fighting a girl is always used in stories. Always, even if it's just one sided. Arguing is always used in canon couples. If they don't have a love hate relationship, it's not canon.

cold_katanagirl
16th November 2005, 3:11 AM
A boy fighting a girl is always used in stories. Always, even if it's just one sided. Arguing is always used in canon couples. If they don't have a love hate relationship, it's not canon.You call yourself a "big" ToS fan when you say THIS and ship Lloyd and Colette? Do you even know who those two are?

Please don't get me started on the horrifying sweetness that is Lloyd x Colette.

That post is pure *******. Not every canon couple is a love/hate one.

CyberCubed
16th November 2005, 3:20 AM
^ Good point.

Anyway for above, in case you haven't noticed, there are many pairings that don't involve constant fighting/arguing.

I wasn't aware that there is some unwritten law that the only plausible romances in film, shows, books, movies involve constant fighting and arguing.

It is quite possible for two people to get together who "GASP", get along great with one another and have things in common.

Kagome Higurashi
16th November 2005, 3:40 AM
Lloyd and Colette argue all the time.

http://shadehaapii.tripod.com/tgc/tos-screen-anime20.jpeg

That's Lloyd in case you didn't know.

Name something where the main couple doesn't argue.

cold_katanagirl
16th November 2005, 3:46 AM
Too bad that red headed guy is ZELOS WILDER.

THIS (http://shadehaapii.tripod.com/tgc/tos-screen-anime02.jpeg) what Lloyd and Colette look like. You can tell which is which right?

... No. That's impossible. Lloyd is the one in red. The boy. Colette is the other one. The girl. Blone hair. Staring at the boy.


Name something where the main couple doesn't argue.Tales of Symphonia. Lol.

Please try to grasp that it's not necessary for two people to bicker in order for it to automatically be canon. For your own sake.

Raziel
16th November 2005, 3:59 AM
Name something where the main couple doesn't argue.

Candy Candy, any disney movie, Romeo and Juliet, Final Fantasy VIII and X, Slam Dunk, Saint Seiya, Evangelion (Shinji x Mana), Rurouni Kenshin, Captain Tsubasa, Robotech...

CyberCubed
16th November 2005, 4:03 AM
Name something where the main couple doesn't argue.

Buffy/Angel?

DBZ: Krillin/Android 18

Skies of Arcadia: Vyse/Fina

Those are all characters who have gotten together that don't "argue and bicker" to hide their feelings for each other.

Bringing this back on topic, Ash/May could be done in the same manner as above.

PokeProphet
16th November 2005, 11:43 AM
Buffy/Angel?
Angel/Cordelia?


DBZ: Krillin/Android 18
Bulma/Yamcha? Bulma/Vegeta?


Skies of Arcadia: Vyse/Fina
Don't know any counterexamples here, never seen the show. But the point is, that the two characters fighting each other is used a lot in romantic stories. Jo-Jo's list seems to be a lot longer then the one you and CKG put together. Do they have to bicker to be in love? Or does bickering automatically mean that two characters are in love? Hell no, of course not. But it also doesn't mean that they're not in love, and that's the point being made by a lot of Anti-Pokeshippers.


Bringing this back on topic, Ash/May could be done in the same manner as above.
Of course. Even though I won't like it, it's possible (and if Drew and Misty never return even likely) that Ash and May will end up that way. That's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is the "Misty and Ash don't fit together because they fight all the time"-argument is false, getting old, and very bloody annoying. Especially since it's only used against Pokeshippers. Nobody goes to the Palletshippers and tells them that Ash and Gary don't belong together because they fight all the time, while those two have actually spend a bigger percentage of their time together arguing with each other. And nobody ever goes to the Rocketshippers to tell them Jessie and James don't belong together, while they actually had more fights then Ash and Misty did.

PikaPika
16th November 2005, 2:30 PM
Okay, I am a Pokeshipper, so this is how I feel:
I hate Advanceshipping, but don't mind May.
In Star Wars Terms, Pokeshipping is like the Jedi, and Advanceshipping is like the Sith. It seemed like the Sith won, just like it seems like Pokeshipping is dead. But two Jedi survived, just like Misty's two appearances, and they trained Luke and lead to the ulitimate downfall of the Sith, Misty coming back and offering a lot more hints (or, hpefully, a confession! :O).

CyberCubed
16th November 2005, 3:34 PM
Angel/Cordelia?


Bulma/Yamcha? Bulma/Vegeta?

So? I'm not saying that there weren't other pairings in this show that also fight.

I'm saying that there are main couples in series that get together who AREN'T at each others throats.

BTW, when Cordy and Angel started to like each other, it was in Season 3 of Angel. And by that time they acted too damn nice around each other, especially with "Mother Cordy" around Conner along with her horrible hairdo.


Don't know any counterexamples here, never seen the show. But the point is, that the two characters fighting each other is used a lot in romantic stories. Jo-Jo's list seems to be a lot longer then the one you and CKG put together.

That's because I don't have the time to listen a dozen shows where characters get together who don't bicker. I'm sure if Jo-Jo wanted to, she could make a list of a bunch of pairings who get together who don't fight also. I mean c'mon, you can't think of a pair in Star Wars that didn't fight? What do you call Anikin and Padme? There is also a ton of shonen and shoujo anime where the girl/guy gets the other person without arguing/bickering/whatever. Most of it is in those little manga books you see at stores.

Of course arguing is used a lot for pairings, but I'm baffled as to why so many people never heard of pairings where the couples get together because THEY GET ALONG.


Of course. Even though I won't like it, it's possible (and if Drew and Misty never return even likely) that Ash and May will end up that way. That's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is the "Misty and Ash don't fit together because they fight all the time"-argument is false, getting old, and very bloody annoying. Especially since it's only used against Pokeshippers.

Well, I don't use that argument. I liked it when they argued with one another, I never said they don't fit together because of it. This is directed to other people I guess, because I'm not here to argue that point.

Jo-Jo
16th November 2005, 9:36 PM
I think there's been a misunderstanding - nobody's arguing that Ash and May can't get together because they don't fight enough. (Well, except Kagome Higurashi, but s/he only came in halfway through the debate... and in any case s/he's wrong. :p Sorry.) We're all well aware that there are loads of ships out there that aren't based on fighting. In fact, many of the books/films/series on my list had couples in them who got along great as well as couples who bicker - Anikin/Padme from Star Wars is a good example, as is Harry/Ginny (Harry Potter), Hero/Claudio (Much Ado About Nothing), Jess/Marie (When Harry Met Sally), and loads more. What we are trying to do is make a counter-argument against the anti-Pokeshipping debate point that Ash and Misty can't be in love because they fight. That is clearly nonsense, and we've demonstrated that.


Buffy/Angel?
Actually, Buffy and Angel did bicker a bit before they got together. And Buffy/Spike was definitely tempestuous. :p Buffy and Riley were non-bickering, though. Willow didn't bicker with Oz, Tara or Kennedy, either.


Angel/Cordelia?
*drops to knees and grinds teeth* Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh. That ship beats even Joey/Rachel on the "what the hell were they thinking???" scale. Cordelia/Xander was a bickering couple, though. And didn't Cordelia and Doyle have a few spats before his *sob* untimely death? (yeah, I'm still not over that, don't mock me.)

Fred/Wesley would be a good example of a harmonious pairing for that show, btw.

CyberCubed
16th November 2005, 9:58 PM
Buffy/Angel had a few disputes here and there, but they really did get along well. Angel was always stalking her in the first season. Besides, when Angel went evil obviously they realized there was a flaw in their relationship, but they did get along great. And especially when they met each other afterwards in crossovers.

Too bad Cordelia mellowed out as the series went on and lost her personality. Angel/Cordy was a horrible pairing, but then again Cordy/Conner was even worse. O_o

Funny how Cordy and Misty start off the same way, both with tempers and sarcastic wit, but then the writers change them and make them too supportive and motherly (with baby Conner and Togepi respectively) and then the writers realize they don't know what to do with them anymore so they axe them.

Man, why do writers like to ruin good characters? I loved Cordy in Buffy Seasons 1-3 and Angel Seasons 1-2. But Cordy went straight to hell in Season 3, she had a bland and boring personality, a TERRIBLE haircut, and the writers just kept throwing her around with the plot. As soon as Cordy said "Demon-ize me already" she sucked.

She was one of my favorite characters in the whole Buffyverse too, what a shame. :(

Jo-Jo
16th November 2005, 10:16 PM
Oh, man, yes! Cordy used to be so awesome. See, we do occasionally agree on stuff. :p And just like with Misty, the Angel-verse writers were actually doing a good job with her character development to begin with, until suddenly for some reason they lost their marbles and removed her personality entirely. Shame.

To take the parallel further, we could make something of the fact that at first both Misty and Cordy tended to have bickering relationships (Ash, Xander, Doyle), and as soon as they got boring, the writers started putting them in harmonious romances instead (Tracey, Groo, Angel). Hmm...

PokeProphet
16th November 2005, 11:15 PM
I'm saying that there are main couples in series that get together who AREN'T at each others throats.
I know that. In fact, my all-time favorite canon couple, Shihiro/Kohaku, got along very well before they even realised they were in love. All I'm saying is that two characters bickering doesn't mean they can't get together, which you agree on, and all your saying is that two characters that get along doesn't mean they can't get together, which I agree on. So basically, we're all just one big happy fandom agreeing with each other. :D


Of course arguing is used a lot for pairings, but I'm baffled as to why so many people never heard of pairings where the couples get together because THEY GET ALONG.
That's not our point, but wy wife already pointed that out.


Well, I don't use that argument. I liked it when they argued with one another, I never said they don't fit together because of it. This is directed to other people I guess, because I'm not here to argue that point.
No, it's not directed at you. "i" was aiming at some other people.


*drops to knees and grinds teeth* Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh. That ship beats even Joey/Rachel on the "what the hell were they thinking???" scale.
True, but still not as high as Bulma/Vegeta. Argh.


To take the parallel further, we could make something of the fact that at first both Misty and Cordy tended to have bickering relationships (Ash, Xander, Doyle), and as soon as they got boring, the writers started putting them in harmonious romances instead (Tracey, Groo, Angel). Hmm...
Wow, you're really into Orangeshipping now huh? Not that I blame you or anything, do whatever you like. It's fine by me. But trust me, Orangeshipping is not as solid as you think, and it certainly isn't canon.

And like I said before, I like the parallel with Samorai Pizza Cats a lot more. Why? Funny you ask:
Speedy Service: The main hero. A nice guy with a heart of gold, but a bit slow and dense. Loves to eat, protects his friends, and spends his days fighting injustices. Reminds you of anyone? It gets better!

Polly Esther: The main female character. A friendly redhead with a vicious temper. Stands by Speedy when fighting evil, but bickers with him a lot when they're not. Infamous for hitting or scratching everyone who makes comments about her temper or appearance. This rings a bell? It get's better.

The entire show, Speedy is chasing this girl (believe her name was Lucy) that fires rockets from her hair when she starts crying. Totally no mentioning of Speedy/Polly. And in the final two parter, at the very end of the show? Boom. Canon.

Parallel doesn't go all the way, since Ash/Misty had build-up, and Speedy/Polly didn't. But still, I see it possible for Ash and Misty to meet in the last few episodes, and make it happen yet.

CyberCubed
17th November 2005, 12:21 AM
Oh, man, yes! Cordy used to be so awesome. See, we do occasionally agree on stuff. :p

It's usually only the shippy stuff in the show that we disagree with each other, not the rest of the series. :p

Oh, and the fact that May > Misty. And that's about it. ;)


I know that. In fact, my all-time favorite canon couple, Shihiro/Kohaku, got along very well before they even realised they were in love. All I'm saying is that two characters bickering doesn't mean they can't get together, which you agree on, and all your saying is that two characters that get along doesn't mean they can't get together, which I agree on. So basically, we're all just one big happy fandom agreeing with each other. :D

Yep. I honestly had no problem with Pokeshipping happening until May was introduced. Once she was brought into the show and the writers developed her personality, I quickly came to the realization that this is the girl that would be absolutely perfect for Ash.

Jo-Jo likes to use the Harry Potter comparison eh? Many people wanted/assumed that Harry/Hermoine would get together because they're the main characters. But instead, they pair Hermoine with second banana Ron and Harry gets Ginny.

Meanwhile, many people want/assume that Ash/Misty will get together in the end of the series since they were both main characters and because of the hints and support it had during the first 5 seasons.

But on the other hand, once Misty was written out, the writers could quite possibly be pairing her with second banana Tracey instead.

Then they introduce May, and as AG has continued, it's almost as if the writers want us to see that May is the perfect girl for Ash. Besides all the comparisons and the "they're clones!" stuff that people like to cite, she's pretty much the only girl in the entire series that Ash could be the "lead" of. Could Ash/May be the Harry/Ginny of Pokemon? Gee, I wonder. The parallels are uncanny.

Ash has pretty much emotionally invested himself in May's quest and her contests. When May loses, Ash loses. When May lost her first contest, Ash blamed himself for her loss. His exact dialouge when he saw May lose to Drew in her first contest was, "It’s my fault, I wish I’d spent more time with May, training her.

Likewise when May lost at Rubello Town Ash sat up next to her on a bench as he tried to cheer her up and reassure her and her abilities with her Pokemon. This was followed up by May wiping a tear from her eye and saying, "Thank you Ash." in a teary/happy voice.

When May lost the Grand Festival, Ash tries to cheer her up by shoving phallic ice cream in her face. :D

Ash has taken May under his wing, that was pretty much the whole point of the May traveling with an "experienced trainer" vibe the writers were giving us in early AG. Ash's success is May's success.

And besides this, the fact that their personalities compliment each other very well, they get along great and rarely fight, have the same attitude toward their goals, have the same Pokemon in some cases (along with a possible pairing if their two Bulbasaur decide to get cozy at Oaks together), it's again like the writers want us to see that the perfect girl for Ash, and the one that's on his level, is May.

I wouldn't be all that surpised if Advanceshipping does become canon in the future. Especially if Ash/May continue to be the leads together and Misty stays where she is right now. Knowing how cliche the writers are, the fact that Ash/May are the leads, the fact that they are so supportive of each other, and the fact that the writers are purposely giving them so many things in common will probably lead to the pairing in the long run.


That's not our point, but wy wife already pointed that out.

Oh don't worry PokeProphet. I'm not trying to interfere and take your wife (Jo-Jo) away from you. ;)

cold_katanagirl
17th November 2005, 12:28 AM
Jo-Jo's list seems to be a lot longer then the one you and CKG put together.List? What list?

The ToS example? That was me making fun of Kagome, not making a list. =0
Do they have to bicker to be in love? Or does bickering automatically mean that two characters are in love? Hell no, of course not. But it also doesn't mean that they're not in love, and that's the point being made by a lot of Anti-Pokeshippers.I don't use that argument... It's a stupid one. It's not liek they argue alot these days anyway, they don't have the chance to. And when they do, they don't really hang out.

Jo-Jo
17th November 2005, 4:16 AM
True, but still not as high as Bulma/Vegeta. Argh.
Or Chakotay/Seven Of Nine. Double-argh.


Wow, you're really into Orangeshipping now huh?
Eh, not really. I can take it or leave it. It's not that interesting, but it's harmlessly fluffy enough. I'd prefer Pokeshipping, mostly because that way Misty would come back, but I'm not going to throw a fit or anything if the writers go the Orangeshipping way instead.


But trust me, Orangeshipping is not as solid as you think, and it certainly isn't canon.
I'll bear that in mind, then. ;)


It's usually only the shippy stuff in the show that we disagree with each other, not the rest of the series.
Not even all of the shippy stuff - we seem to agree on the Pokeshipping/Orangeshipping thing. It's just May's love life that appears to be the sticking point. ;)


Oh, and the fact that May > Misty.
PAH! Misty could totally take May. Mallet o' doom, yo'.


Jo-Jo likes to use the Harry Potter comparison eh? Many people wanted/assumed that Harry/Hermoine would get together because they're the main characters. But instead, they pair Hermoine with second banana Ron and Harry gets Ginny.
*winces* Second banana Ron? :( He and Hermione are exactly equal in importance. But yes, I think the parallels between HP and Pokemon shipping are uncanny.


Meanwhile, many people want/assume that Ash/Misty will get together in the end of the series since they were both main characters and because of the hints and support it had during the first 5 seasons.
Yup, which is one huge difference between AAML and H/Hr right now, because Harry/Hermione had absolutely no hints or support in canon.


Then they introduce May, and as AG has continued, it's almost as if the writers want us to see that May is the perfect girl for Ash. Besides all the comparisons and the "they're clones!" stuff that people like to cite, she's pretty much the only girl in the entire series that Ash could be the "lead" of. Could Ash/May be the Harry/Ginny of Pokemon? Gee, I wonder. The parallels are uncanny.
:D Hmm, I see that somewhat differently (surprise surprise). For one thing, Ginny had a huge, obvious crush on Harry right from the moment she met him. There's been nothing like that from May. Also, Ginny was never the 'heroine' of Harry Potter - Hermione's always been more important than her. And Ginny's a much closer match in personality for Misty (hey, they even have the same colour hair! :D). The way her character was developed, too, is totally different to May's.

Really, the only ways in which Advanceshipping could be considering similar to H/G is that May and Ginny both have highly-developed family backgrounds, and Ash has saved May's life before. But neither or those really work for Advanceshipping in the same way that they work for H/G. The main theme of HP is Harry's search for a family, as is shown to us in the first book when he sees his dead parents and grandparents in the Mirror of Erised. The Weasleys then become his surrogate family, adopting him as a seventh son, and he develops close relationships with them all, particularly Ron, Molly, the twins and, eventually, Ginny. The H/G pairing, then, is a symbolic acceptance of Harry into the Weasley family.

But Ash isn't a lonely orphan, and the Pokemon series has nothing to do with him searching for a family. He already has a loving mother, a happy homelife, and a large circle of friends. He's a very secure child, and he doesn't need to be taken in and mothered by May's parents. The main theme of Pokemon is Ash's personal growth, which requires him to learn everything about the world and befriend a huge number of people and creatures. Becoming a part of May's family will do nothing for him, symbolically. And the fact that he has saved May's life is undercut by May and Drew saving each other in the Wynaut episode, and the many times when Ash has saved other people/Pokemon in dramatic manners.


Ash has pretty much emotionally invested himself in May's quest and her contests. When May loses, Ash loses.
Oh, come on, now, you're romanticising. Ash has given no more indication of being invested in May's contests than Brock or Max. In fact, there have been a few times when Ash has placed a higher priority on doing other things. Remember Lilicove, and how he went out to train Swellow rather than watch May? Or the Grand Festival, when he found the time to help out Tonpei while the appeals were going on?


When May lost her first contest, Ash blamed himself for her loss. His exact dialouge when he saw May lose to Drew in her first contest was, "It's my fault, I should have spent more time training with her."
Wow, one whole line. I don't know why anyone makes such a big deal out of that scene. Ash should be feeling a little guilt at that moment - May was choking out there on the battlefield. He was supposed to have taken responsibility for teaching her, and he clearly hadn't done a very good job. And, you know, Ash doesn't get any more lines throughout that episode than Brock or Max. Whenever they were shown as a group reacting to what was going on down in the contest hall, all three of the boys usually got a line each. That part you mentioned, for instance, goes like this:

MAX: This is bad – she’s losing points.
BROCK: Yeah. Well, I think she was fooled by that Magical Leaf. She’s not used to battling.
ASH: It’s my fault. I wish I’d spent more time with May, teaching her.
PIKACHU: Pi-ka…

And here's the next part where they get to speak:

ASH: It’s not looking so good…
BROCK: I know… her timing and her attacks are way off their mark.

And here's the scene where they're comforting her after her loss:

MAX: I’m so sorry, May.
MAY (sobbing): I stink! I couldn’t do a thing! To think that my Beautifly worked so hard out there… all I did was totally mess everything up. I feel awful!
ASH: It’s OK…
PIKACHU: Pi-ka…
MAY: You know… the only thing I could think about was how much fun it would be if I entered a Pok&#233;mon contest, and to perform side by side with Beautifly. But I never thought how hard it would be to lose!
BROCK: It hurts, May.
MAX: It hurts a lot.

Ash gets... two words. So much for "if she loses, he loses". ;) He does better in Rubello Town, although in that case, the reason he was the one who went to talk to her is because he was the one who May owed an apology to.


When May lost the Grand Festival, Ash tries to cheer her up by shoving phallic ice cream in her face.
May hardly looked as though she needed cheering up in that scene. ;) And gosh, if Ash was under the impression that May was upset and needed comforting, he did a truly pathetic job of showing concern for her! The party had been going on for a good long while - long enough for May to stuff her face and have a conversation with Drew - and Ash and the others just went off and left her on her own. Niiiiice! :p


Ash has taken May under his wing, that was pretty much the whole point of the May traveling with an "experienced trainer" vibe the writers were giving us in early AG.
Which just adds to the list of ways in which Advanceshipping and H/G are nothing alike. Harry never took Ginny under his wing; the closest thing he has to a protoge is probably Neville.


And besides this, the fact that their personalities compliment each other very well, they get along great and rarely fight, have the same attitude toward their goals, have the same Pokemon in some cases (along with a possible pairing if their two Bulbasaur decide to get cozy at Oaks together), it's again like the writers want us to see that the perfect girl for Ash, and the one that's on his level, is May.
I can think of another character whose personality complements Ash, who he gets along great with and rarely fights with, who has the same attitude towards his goal, and has the same Pokemon in most cases: Richie! :D Whoever said there was no slash in Pokemon, huh?

But to get back to that original point about Harry Potter parallels, there is a ship in HP that Ash/May greatly resembles, and it's not H/G - it's H/Hr. Harry and Hermione are great friends, and as the lead male and female of the series, it was widely assumed that they'd hook up in the end. Supporters of the pairing usually claimed that they'd get together because they were similar in personality and had a pure, harmonious relationship that showed how in-tune they were with one another, and how much closer they were as friends than either of them was with any other character. It was theorised by H/Hr-ers that Ron would be gradually phased out of the series, leaving Harry and Hermione free to discover their love without any pesky third parties getting in the way with their inconvenient long-standing feelings for 'Harry's girl'. ;) There were no strong indications in the series to suggest that Harry and Hermione might be interested in each other, but the fact that Hermione is a great friend to Harry and often supports, helps and worries about him (plus, you know... she's a girl!) was cited as evidence that she had to be secretly madly in love with him.

Now, the main opponent of Harry/Hermione, in fanon, was Ron/Hermione. This ship tended to be cited by its supporters as the obvious pairing, with confirmed feelings on one side and strongly implied feelings on the other (IMO it was confirmed feelings on both sides after book four, but the other shippers were stubborn). The big clue for R/Hr was Ron's jealousy of another, older boy, several telling blushing episodes from Hermione, and the fact that the two of them bicker like nobody's business. I can think of a couple of Pokemon ships that description resembles.

Some other points of relevance:

- Despite numerous opportunities, Harry never once got jealous of Hermione's relationships with other boys. In contrast, Ron was massively jealous of Viktor Krum.

- Harry and Hermione were painted as a couple several times, when a lying reporter wrote a couple of articles claiming they were dating. They were also accused of being in love by jealous girl/boyfriends. Neither of them, at any point, had an embarrassed reaction to this.

- People who supported Ron/Hermione were often referred to as rabid Ron-fans who only cared about his happiness. As far as I can tell, the argument was that only a squealing fangirl could ever sympathise with him or his feelings.

- It was frequently held that the reason Hermione had to 'get' Harry was because she was the only girl in the series good enough for him. Hermione vs. Ginny catfights broke out in the fandom fairly often. In fact, there was a strong trend of people wanting their favourite girl to end up with the hero, regardless of whether said girl even wanted him.

Kagome Higurashi
17th November 2005, 5:02 AM
Jo-Jo likes to use the Harry Potter comparison eh? Many people wanted/assumed that Harry/Hermoine would get together because they're the main characters. But instead, they pair Hermoine with second banana Ron and Harry gets Ginny.Many people are assuming Ash and May are going to get together because they're the main characters as well. Most people assume PokeShipping will happen because it has strong evidence, not really because the two were the main characters.

Ash and May is more like Lloyd/Sheena because they don't like each other, or Inuyasha/Kikyo when Kikyo is first resurrected in the anime because it's not going to happen.

PokeShipping is like Harry/Ginny or Lloyd/Colette. And yes I know who the characters are, Lloyd is the brown haired one, Colette the blonde, Sheena the black haired one who summons, and Zelos the red haired one who I showed earlier.

cold_katanagirl
17th November 2005, 5:19 AM
Many people are assuming Ash and May are going to get together because they're the main characters as well. Most people assume PokeShipping will happen because it has strong evidence, not really because the two were the main characters.Pokeshippers aren't the only ones who do that though, Advanceshippers do this too.

Getting into the Harry Potter/Pokemon discussion...

Ash x May = Harry x Hermione
Drew x May = Ron x Hermione
Ash x Misty = Harry x Cho (... SHAZZAM)
? x ? = Harry x Ginny

Those are my thoughts on the matter.


Ash and May is more like Lloyd/Sheena because they don't like each other... PokeShipping is like Lloyd/Colette.First off, Lloyd x Colette, Pokeshipping, and like in the same sentence? That's like saying Ash x May is like Ron x Snape, come on now.

Second, Sheena not liking Lloyd? Please.

Sides, Lloyd, Colette, Zelos, and Sheena are sort of all in a messy love square thing. Pokemon isn't that complicated.

or Inuyasha/Kikyo when Kikyo is first resurrected in the anime because it's not going to happen.... Wtf? Inuyasha x Kikyou is way too cool to even be in the same post as Advanceshipping.

Come to think of it, Inuyasha x Kikyou is too badass for ANY ship on the likes of Pokemon and Harry Potter. =0

PokeProphet
17th November 2005, 7:12 PM
Jo-Jo likes to use the Harry Potter comparison eh? Many people wanted/assumed that Harry/Hermoine would get together because they're the main characters. But instead, they pair Hermoine with second banana Ron and Harry gets Ginny.
Yeah, but the parallel isn't totally correct. In Pokemon, it is the pairing of the male lead/female sidekick (Ash/Misty) that has a reasonable amount of hints (especially from Misty's side) where the female sidekick/male sidekick pairings have nothing (Gymshipping) or a little (Orangeshipping). In Harry Potter (from what I know, don't read the books) that's reversed, since there's more evidence for the female sidekick/male sidekick pairing (Hermoine/Ron) then there is for the male lead/female sidekick paring (Harry/Hermoine).


Meanwhile, many people want/assume that Ash/Misty will get together in the end of the series since they were both main characters and because of the hints and support it had during the first 5 seasons.

But on the other hand, once Misty was written out, the writers could quite possibly be pairing her with second banana Tracey instead.
The reason I don't believe that the writers are going to change Misty's preference in the first seasons (her crush on Ash) is that shipping is nothing but a side-matter in Pokemon, if a matter at all. Basically, the whole anime is like a giant commercial for the games, just to show off all the cool creatures you can catch. I mean, how many good shippy moments did we have, in all the episodes plus the movies? We had about five episodes and one movie with shipping as the main issue (Wherefore art thou Pokemon, Misty meets her match, A date with Delcatty, The bicker the better, that Whynaut-island episode, and Pokemon2000) and about thirty episodes containing some minor hints. Out of a total of 433, that's not much. My point is, that I don't think the writers are making a big issue out of it, with changing preferences, love triangles, and broken hearts. To dark for Pokemon. So IF any shipping is going to happen, it will probably be the obvious ones they have been pointing at so far.


Then they introduce May, and as AG has continued, it's almost as if the writers want us to see that May is the perfect girl for Ash. Besides all the comparisons and the "they're clones!" stuff that people like to cite, she's pretty much the only girl in the entire series that Ash could be the "lead" of.
True, May is more on the same level with Ash than Ash was with Misty. But you have to consider that the writers needed someone for Ash to take lead of. He needed an apprentice, someone to show how much he had already learned about Pokemon. Sending him off with someone who's a better or more intelligent trainer than Ash himself wouldn't have been a good idea. Nobody would have seen how much he had already progressed, and they would have had the exact same situation as they did in Jotho, which was exactly what the writers wanted to avoid.


Ash has pretty much emotionally invested himself in May's quest and her contests. When May loses, Ash loses. When May lost her first contest, Ash blamed himself for her loss. His exact dialouge when he saw May lose to Drew in her first contest was, "It’s my fault, I wish I’d spent more time with May, training her.
I think the difference between you and me, is the same as the difference between Arti (the worlds most dedicated LeagueShipper) and me. What you see as signs of beginning love, I see as close friendship, vice versa. Ash and May have a strong emotional connection, nobody's denying that. But such an emotional connection could also reflect their close friendship. Besides, what was Ash supposed to say? "She deserved that, she should have spend less time shopping"? "Ah, looks like I don't have to spend any more time with her"? Nothing? All of those alternatives don't fit Ash's personality or the situation. So I'd consider this quote fitting, touching, but not shippy.


Likewise when May lost at Rubello Town Ash sat up next to her on a bench as he tried to cheer her up and reassure her and her abilities with her Pokemon. This was followed up by May wiping a tear from her eye and saying, "Thank you Ash." in a teary/happy voice.
Once again, what else could she have said? "Yay, I did this all by myself"? "Thank you Max"? Nothing (would seem very arrogant not to thank her mentor)?


When May lost the Grand Festival, Ash tries to cheer her up by shoving phallic ice cream in her face. :D
:D That's not compared to projecting a GIANT Onix in the sky.


Ash has taken May under his wing, that was pretty much the whole point of the May traveling with an "experienced trainer" vibe the writers were giving us in early AG. Ash's success is May's success.
True, but is that shippy? To me, it signifies deep friendship, but not romance. (I am of course, as you all know, not totally unbiased. But still.)


And besides this, the fact that their personalities compliment each other very well, they get along great and rarely fight, have the same attitude toward their goals, have the same Pokemon in many cases (along with a possible pairing if their two Pikachu's decide to get cozy at Oaks together), it's again like the writers want us to see that the perfect boy for Ash, and the one that's on his level, is Richie.
Get my point?

I wouldn't be all that surpised if Advanceshipping does become canon in the future. Especially if Ash/May continue to be the leads together and Misty stays where she is right now.
It's very possible. But still, at this point, I consider Pokeshipping more likely. Maybe if Drew doens't come back, Misty get's paired up with Tracey, or 4Kids starts to dub-add Advanceshipping hints, I'll change my mind. But there's no sign of any of those things happening on the short term.


Oh don't worry PokeProphet. I'm not trying to interfere and take your wife (Jo-Jo) away from you. ;)
Appreciated man. You two argue a lot, so I was starting to think that you secretly had a crush on each other or something ;).


List? What list?
Sorry, somewhere I kinda got the idea that you and CC were making a list or something. Had a looooooong day yesterday.


Or Chakotay/Seven Of Nine. Double-argh.
CHAKOTAY AND SEVEN OF NINE?!?! :o What season did that happen? Guess I don't know this because we're running behind in Holland (as we are with everything, except for gay marriage and legalisation of soft-drugs, that is). Damn, and I was so rooting for Janeway/Chakotay. Bwah. Well, at least I still have Paris/Torres. Or did they kill that too?


Ash and May is more like Lloyd/Sheena because they don't like each other, or Inuyasha/Kikyo when Kikyo is first resurrected in the anime because it's not going to happen.
For the love of God will you please, PLEASE stop whining about Lloyd/Sheena and Inuyasha/Kikyou, ~Pokeshipper~. I don't know whether they're canon, and I don't bloody care. Stop carrying it over to every discussion just to piss off CKG.

Sharpshooter
17th November 2005, 9:30 PM
I'm late joining the debate but I would just like to say regarding the poll, I'm slightly dissapointed with the fact that I can't vote more than one, because 4 of the first 5 options comfortabley describe why I would pick Misty to be with Ash over May, and perhaps some of the more dafter ones at the bottom as well.

I would just like to point out also though that what's in common with both PokéShipping and AdvancedShipping is that Ash isn't fully interested (in terms of full affection) in either because of his age and maturity, which makes both of them a dead heat sometimes.

Meganium Ex
17th November 2005, 9:32 PM
I'm late joining the debate but I would just like to say regarding the poll, I'm slightly dissapointed with the fact that I can't vote more than one, because 4 of the first 5 options comfortabley describe why I would pick Misty to be with Ash over May, and perhaps some of the more dafter ones at the bottom as well.

I would just like to point out also though that what's in common with both PokéShipping and AdvancedShipping is that Ash isn't fully interested (in terms of full affection) in either because of his age and maturity, which makes both of them a dead heat sometimes.
Well, sorry 'bout that ^^ If yoou have 4, then I just think you should pick "all" ;)

Sharpshooter
17th November 2005, 11:16 PM
Well, sorry 'bout that ^^ If yoou have 4, then I just think you should pick "all" ;)

Not a problem I just voted for the one that I thought would best describe it.

Jo-Jo
18th November 2005, 3:48 AM
Yeah, but the parallel isn't totally correct. In Pokemon, it is the pairing of the male lead/female sidekick (Ash/Misty) that has a reasonable amount of hints (especially from Misty's side) where the female sidekick/male sidekick pairings have nothing (Gymshipping) or a little (Orangeshipping). In Harry Potter (from what I know, don't read the books) that's reversed, since there's more evidence for the female sidekick/male sidekick pairing (Hermoine/Ron) then there is for the male lead/female sidekick paring (Harry/Hermoine).
Yup, that's right. It's sidekick/sidekick with Ron/Hermione and then hero/female secondary character with Harry/Ginny. Errr, if you can call Ginny secondary, that is. Her importance fluctuates wildly depending which book you're reading.

Oh, and dude, read the books, they're great! :p


Appreciated man. You two argue a lot, so I was starting to think that you secretly had a crush on each other or something ;).
Hey, no using my own arguments against me! ;)


CHAKOTAY AND SEVEN OF NINE?!?! :o
I KNOOOOOOOWWW! >_<


What season did that happen?
Last one. They just threw it in there in the final episode. Came out of NOWHERE. Broke my Doctor/Seven shipping heart, it did. :(


Damn, and I was so rooting for Janeway/Chakotay. Bwah. Well, at least I still have Paris/Torres. Or did they kill that too?
No, Paris/Torres was kept intact, thank god. Oooh, speaking of which, 'nother bickering couple to add to the list. :D

dragonmaster5000
18th November 2005, 4:00 AM
Wow, I missed a lot! So, what's our current argument? And what's with all this off-topic shippy talk that you guys have been talking about?

CyberCubed
18th November 2005, 9:10 PM
From the newest Japanese ep:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/de7bd7cb.jpg

Gotta love the fishing stuff. Didn't they do something like this with Ash and Misty once too? If so, I'm glad they're doing it with Ash and May now. :D

Wow, May's chest is completely pressed against Ash's back. I believe this is the first time May's breasts have ever touched Ash. I wonder if he noticed. :)

Satoshi
18th November 2005, 10:08 PM
Fushigi Yuugi is not Pokemon. Two different plots and actions, different characters and personalities.
I didn't say Fushigi Yuugi was like Pokemon, I was implying that anime emotions vary from real life emotions. -_-

So, anime in general doesn't imply to real life situations? So what is Kasumi smacking/yelling at Satoshi in the first episodes about?
Yeah, hitting a person with 5-foot long mallets and throwing them 20 feet in the air is really similar to real life situations. -_- I said emotions, not physical pain.

~Espeon~
18th November 2005, 10:27 PM
hi Meganium XD are you not thinking read my Private Messages :(

Jo-Jo
19th November 2005, 12:55 AM
:D I love how Ash and May have absolutely no response to being pressed up against each other.

Meganium Ex
19th November 2005, 1:05 AM
:D I love how Ash and May have absolutely no response to being pressed up against each other.
And I love how Ash and Misty do too ;)

CyberCubed
19th November 2005, 1:16 AM
:D I love how Ash and May have absolutely no response to being pressed up against each other.

Considering they're struggling to remain balanced on the boat before the Pokemon pulls them under water by tugging on the lure, what they're doing is fine. :D

Any scene where the writers have May press her boobies up against Ash is good enough for me. ;)

dragonmaster5000
19th November 2005, 1:40 AM
From the newest Japanese ep:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/de7bd7cb.jpg

Gotta love the fishing stuff. Didn't they do something like this with Ash and Misty once too? If so, I'm glad they're doing it with Ash and May now. :D

Wow, May's chest is completely pressed against Ash's back. I believe this is the first time May's breasts have ever touched Ash. I wonder if he noticed. :)

Judging by the look on Ash's face, I think he definitely noticed. :) Or maybe they were too focused on the task at hand.

Mizu Kasumi
19th November 2005, 3:33 AM
He probably noticed. But don't yell at me or anything, I think they look good as a couple. But I still stink they share a sister and brother feeling. ^^

articuno_trumps_all
19th November 2005, 4:35 AM
I think the difference between you and me, is the same as the difference between Arti (the worlds most dedicated LeagueShipper) and me. What you see as signs of beginning love, I see as close friendship, vice versa.
LOL. *itches to say something, but doesn’t* XP

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/de7bd7cb.jpg

Wow. Ash looks really happy that May's on him. [/sarcasm]

~Pokeshipper~
19th November 2005, 5:55 PM
The reason I don't believe that the writers are going to change Misty's preference in the first seasons (her crush on Ash) is that shipping is nothing but a side-matter in Pokemon, if a matter at all. Basically, the whole anime is like a giant commercial for the games, just to show off all the cool creatures you can catch. I mean, how many good shippy moments did we have, in all the episodes plus the movies? We had about five episodes and one movie with shipping as the main issue (Wherefore art thou Pokemon, Misty meets her match, A date with Delcatty, The bicker the better, that Whynaut-island episode, and Pokemon2000) and about thirty episodes containing some minor hints. Out of a total of 433, that's not much. My point is, that I don't think the writers are making a big issue out of it, with changing preferences, love triangles, and broken hearts. To dark for Pokemon. So IF any shipping is going to happen, it will probably be the obvious ones they have been pointing at so far.I agree with this. Breaking them up is too dramatic for pokemon.

CyberCubed
19th November 2005, 6:03 PM
It wouldn't be dramatic because Ash and Misty were never a couple to begin with. They can't "break them up" if they were never dating. Not to mention GCYL was pretty emotional when Misty left, if you want to count that episode as her "goodbye".

cold_katanagirl
19th November 2005, 6:12 PM
I agree with this. Breaking them up is too dramatic for pokemon.They were never together, so they never broke up.

Honestly, if people can take GCYL, then they can take Misty moving on.

CyberCubed
19th November 2005, 6:18 PM
Honestly, if people can take GCYL, then they can take Misty moving on.

Exactly. Did I mention how much you rock cold katanagirl?

You seem to show up whenever ~Pokeshipper~ posts. :D

cold_katanagirl
19th November 2005, 6:32 PM
Exactly. Did I mention how much you rock cold katanagirl?

You seem to show up whenever ~Pokeshipper~ posts. :D

... Holy flip, that was ~Pokeshipper~?! I didn't even look, I thought it was... somebody else. o________O

Yay for rocking! :D

Meganium Ex
20th November 2005, 12:29 AM
I agree with CyberCubed and cold kantagirl

Ash and Misty were NEVER a couple, and if we're (Advanceshippers) lucky, they'll never be

I also didn't notice that was ~Pokeshipper~ 0_o

dragonmaster5000
20th November 2005, 3:09 AM
LOL. *itches to say something, but doesn’t* XP

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/de7bd7cb.jpg

Wow. Ash looks really happy that May's on him. [/sarcasm]

That's not because May's on him, it's because of the Crawdaunt he's about to catch. They were focusing on the task at hand, so Ash didn't have time to notice.

DarkWobbuffet
20th November 2005, 4:46 AM
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/de7bd7cb.jpg

Haruka: Oh man, it's a big one!
Satoshi: Or two big ones!
Haruka: ...are we talking about the same thing?

dragonmaster5000
20th November 2005, 5:20 AM
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/de7bd7cb.jpg

Haruka: Oh man, it's a big one!
Satoshi: Or two big ones!
Haruka: ...are we talking about the same thing?

LOL! That's really funny! But shouldn't this be in the Caption Thread? No offense, it's still very funny.

Meganium Ex
20th November 2005, 1:44 PM
Caption thread? Never heard of one...Oh I get it!...Do I? :p

Kagome Higurashi
21st November 2005, 1:37 AM
Here's a topic we can do:

Have we had any Pokeshipping hints since the end of Johto?

Meganium Ex
21st November 2005, 2:45 AM
Here's a topic we can do:

Have we had any Pokeshipping hints since the end of Johto?
As much as I hate to admitt it, and I REALLY DO, we've had one

At the end of Jirachi Wishmaker, Ash said he had missed a friend everyday, Misty

Not a popular hint, but it is one >_>

No offence, but I think this topic should be in the Pokeshipping thread

Advanceshippers won't wanna disscus this, you know why :p

cold_katanagirl
21st November 2005, 2:49 AM
Have we had any Pokeshipping hints since the end of Johto?

None that I'm aware of. The Jirachi thing was dubbed Meganium XD.

Meganium Ex
21st November 2005, 2:52 AM
Have we had any Pokeshipping hints since the end of Johto?

None that I'm aware of. The Jirachi thing was dubbed Meganium XD.
It was? YAY!!!

dragonmaster5000
21st November 2005, 3:37 AM
Have we had any Pokeshipping hints since the end of Johto?

None that I'm aware of. The Jirachi thing was dubbed Meganium XD.

It was dubbed? It was dubbed?! IT WAS DUBBED! YAY! I'm so happy! I thought for sure that the Jirachi thing was a big Pokeshipping hint, but now that I know the truth...EVERY ADVANCESHIPPER CELEBRATE!!!
:club:

On a side note, this does prove that the dubbers like to add dub-added Pokeshipping hints: The Jirachi Movie and GCYL. :(

CyberCubed
21st November 2005, 3:44 AM
Yeah, Ash doesn't mention Misty in the Japanese version of the 6th movie.

In fact, Ash barely ever mentions Misty at all in the entirety of AG.

The only time he's mentioned Misty was in episode 5 of AG, when he told May/Max that they used to travel with Misty. And the second time Ash mentioned Misty was in "Judgement Day", which is only because Jimmy took out the Cascade badge and showed it to them. Ash said "That's Misty's badge." and that's it.

Other than that, Misty is pretty much a non-factor to Ash in AG. He doesn't appear to miss her much at all, and when he meets her again he actually frowns when he sees her in his house after Hoenn.

cold_katanagirl
21st November 2005, 3:57 AM
The only time he's mentioned Misty was in episode 5 of AG, when he told May/Max that they used to travel with Misty.That was dubbed too... According to Dogasu (http://www.bulbagarden.net/~dogasu/comparisons/houen/ep007.html) anyway.


Dialogue Edit
In the dub, Ash talks about how when him and Brock and Misty used to travel around, they would get lost all the time. In the Japanese version, he doesn't mention Kasumi by name at all.Then again, that was episode seven of Hoenn, unless he mentioned her in episode five too...

CyberCubed
21st November 2005, 4:17 AM
I got the wrong episode number, it was episode 7.

Interesting, so THAT was dubbed too eh?

So now Ash has only mentioned Misty once in all of AG in "Judgement Day".

::goes to see if that was dubbed added too::

PokeProphet
21st November 2005, 1:57 PM
Oh, and dude, read the books, they're great!
Sorry, but as a discworld/Terry Pratchett-fan I feel obligated to boycot these books. It just breaks my heart to see that this man, who has created a whole different universe in his books, stands in the mere shade of *shivers* Harry Potter.


Last one. They just threw it in there in the final episode. Came out of NOWHERE.
The more I think about it, the more it begins to suck. And didn't Seven of Nine have a fiance? I remember this episode where Seven meets this guy in the world where she goes when in stasis, and the guy tells her he was her fiance and still loves her. It even had a dramatic ending where they kiss, then have to seperate, and he shouts "I promiss I'll find you, someday. Made me think that this was, oh I dunno, SHIPPY OR SOMETHING. Bloody writers.


Gotta love the fishing stuff.
Indeed:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b260/Burningpassion2/hands1.jpg
And for simular girl-pressing-up-to-Ash pics, try to find pics of 'Clefairy tales'.


Judging by the look on Ash's face, I think he definitely noticed. Or maybe they were too focused on the task at hand.
You think? --;


LOL. *itches to say something, but doesn’t* XP

Because you can't think of anything, or because you're afraid to hurt my feelings? ^_^


Wow. Ash looks really happy that May's on him. [/sarcasm]
Yeah, just look at how happy they look in this situation. Or the pic that I posted, for that matter.


It wouldn't be dramatic because Ash and Misty were never a couple to begin with.
Misty's crush on Ash is undeniable for everyone who ever watched the show. All I'm pointing out is that:
1) It is unlikely that Misty's preference will change, since shipping is not a big issue, at least not important enough to develop a whole soap-opera plot around.
2) The writers will not, and I repeat, will not pair up Ash and May if Misty still has feelings for him. Which is still possible (Date with Delcatty).


Exactly. Did I mention how much you rock cold katanagirl?

That is the only thing nobody will disagree with on this thread. At least I don't. But you forgot Jo-Jo. She rocks to. LOL, Jo-Jo and Coldie are like the big bad rockin' twins or something.


Ash and Misty were NEVER a couple, and if we're (Advanceshippers) lucky, they'll never be
Good thing then that Pokeshipping has at least existed one-sided so far. Something that can't be said about, well, certain other shippings.


Haruka: Oh man, it's a big one!
Satoshi: Or two big ones!
Haruka: ...are we talking about the same thing?

http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=58406


None that I'm aware of. The Jirachi thing was dubbed Meganium XD.
Ah, the infamous dub-added cart. Sometimes it seems like every anti-Pokeshipper has twenty of those in his deck.
Not that I can disagree with it. The quote was dub added. But there's a problem with all these dub-added things. You see, lots and lots of people can tell me what is and isn't dub-added. But so far, nobody has ever given me a good reason why 4Kids dub-added the hints. So let's make a topic out of that:
Why did 4Kids dub-add Pokeshipping hints to the original?
Here's a list of things I've heard so far, and are not considered good answers:
-They are doing it to annoy the Anti-Pokeshipppers!
Yes, because the people at 4Kids are all mean people that are out to annoy that small bit of the fandom that cares about shipping anyway.
-The dubbers are Pokeshippers themselves.
Hmhm. So they became Pokeshippers based on nothing (since they were Pokeshippers before they started dub-adding the hints) and just thought "Well, if we add enough hints, it will magically happen". And of course, al the adult people who dub the show for their work started caring so much for Pokeshipping that they started to dub-add hints, knowing that it will not increase the change of it happening and taking the risk of breaking the hearts of half the shipping fandom in the process. Unlikely.
So these answers do not count. Curious what you're going to think of.


EVERY ADVANCESHIPPER CELEBRATE!!!
Removing hint from Pokeshipping =/= hint for Advanceshipping. Do you see any Palletshippers celebrate the fact that this hint is dub added? The strength of a ship is not determined by the hints for it's opposing ships, but by the hints of the ship itself.


Other than that, Misty is pretty much a non-factor to Ash in AG. He doesn't appear to miss her much at all, and when he meets her again he actually frowns when he sees her in his house after Hoenn.
So he looks surprised. Big deal. You expected him to suddenly leap into Misty's arms, after all the anti-shippyness this boy has already given us? And the fact that you don't scream out a persons name every day doesn't mean you don't miss her. I miss my grandparents, but you don't see me mentioning them to you every day now do you?

Misty-Fan-Forever
21st November 2005, 2:55 PM
^ Exactly. My best friend moved away and I don't mention her everyday. And when we see each other again it's almsot like she never left o_0 Ash was surprised because he didn't expect her to be there, if I came home and I found my best friend in my house I'd be like that too.

And because Pokemon is not a soap opera they would not have May in love with Ash while Misty does. Many people say she doesn't anymore, that Johto was it dying and GCYL was the funeral yet we hear of a crush in a Date with Delcatty which (I'm not stating it as a fact because it's not) is almost certainly Ash. It would be either Ash or Tracey and the reason I don't believe it's Tracy is because the reaction is different to when she was asked about liking him. And Phyduck's reaction has us to believe he knows who it is and he's spent a LOT more time with Ash than Tracey.

Now, why have a hint after GCYL if that was the funeral? And about the dubbers. Yes several hints are dub added, however the dubbers didn't just think one day to add all these useless hints for no apparant reason in hope to make it happen. The dubbers actually have to notify the Japanese studio before making a big decision and if it's alright, they go ahead with it. Creating a romantic subplot seems like a big deal (if it wasn't then this argument wouldn't be in existance) and because of that, they would need permission. And Japan wouldn't just allow them to do that unless it was intended eventually.

Well there's my two cents for the moment. I'll make a few more comments later.

CyberCubed
21st November 2005, 3:29 PM
The dubbers actually have to notify the Japanese studio before making a big decision and if it's alright, they go ahead with it. Creating a romantic subplot seems like a big deal (if it wasn't then this argument wouldn't be in existance) and because of that, they would need permission. And Japan wouldn't just allow them to do that unless it was intended eventually.

Um, not quite. 4kids doesn't have to ask the Japanese studio permission to do anything. These are the same people who turned James into a homosexual and made a Trainer's Choice saying that Arbok evolved into Seviper. Do you think the Japanese approve of such things? Especially one that changes a Pokemon's evolutionary line? I don't think so.

Misty-Fan-Forever
21st November 2005, 3:36 PM
Ahh that is true, thank you for correcting me. Definantly not all the things no, 4Kids can be pretty...unrealistic when it comes to things. I guess they take it as they see it, they see James in a dress and make it part of his personality. They do like to include jokes like that (I don't think I picked up on it when I first watched it) but hey.

I can't remember what source I heard the whole notifying thing from, wish I did though it would be easier to see if it was reliable or not. They do talk to them on SOME things though but rarley. Can't say what issue as I don't know myself. Either way, thank you for correcting me.

Meganium Ex
21st November 2005, 9:40 PM
Again Pokeshippers, let's make a topic that involves both Pokeshipping AND Advanceshipping, or just 2 diffrent topics. Advanceshippers (including me) may not like discussing just Pokeshipping in a Pokeshipping Vs Advanceshipping thread


We don't have a Pokeshipping thread for nothing -_-

Anyway, the writers of US may want Pokeshipping to happen, but it may not not be possible since the Jappenese writers may not want it to happen :D

PokeProphet
21st November 2005, 11:45 PM
Anyway, the writers of US may want Pokeshipping to happen, but it may not not be possible since the Jappenese writers may not want it to happen :D
Interesting.
And why do the writers of US want Pokeshipping to happen?
And why do you think the Japanese writers don't want to?

Swifty
21st November 2005, 11:58 PM
And why do you think the Japanese writers don't want to?
Because pokeshipping is a disease.

[/agent smith]

cold_katanagirl
22nd November 2005, 2:34 AM
Just when I thought I'd have more time, our team makes it to playoffs and we get to go to Dallas. Or Midland... somewhere. Then the damn Thanksgiving parade. I'll shut up now.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b260/Burningpassion2/hands1.jpgAsh's mouth looks weird. XD

Skip some stuff, skip some stuff...
Misty's crush on Ash is undeniable for everyone who ever watched the show.Except Edward Elric. :p


1) It is unlikely that Misty's preference will change, since shipping is not a big issue, at least not important enough to develop a whole soap-opera plot around.It doesn't really have to get all dramatic though. If they don't focus on it much, then I don't really see much of a problem with them just dropping it off. GCYL seemed like a fitting end to me.
2) The writers will not, and I repeat, will not pair up Ash and May if Misty still has feelings for him. Which is still possible (Date with Delcatty). Too bad we don't know who Misty was blushing about huh? Tracey or Ash. Hmmmmage. =0
She rocks to. LOL, Jo-Jo and Coldie are like the big bad rockin' twins or something.... Coldie. I like that word, it's cool (no pun intended).
Good thing then that Pokeshipping has at least existed one-sided so far. Something that can't be said about, well, certain other shippings.Ouch. :(
Ah, the infamous dub-added cart. Sometimes it seems like every anti-Pokeshipper has twenty of those in his deck.The only ones I know about are the Jirachi thing, some stuff from GCYL, and the one where Misty was mentioned in Hoenn that one time.

Besides that, most of the people I see saying Pokeshipping was all dub added tend to be anti-shippers in general, but anyway...



Why did 4Kids dub-add Pokeshipping hints to the original?Cuz they can. Lame but... True. Why add hints then take some out? THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW.

It would It would be either Ash or Tracey and the reason I don't believe it's Tracy is because the reaction is different to when she was asked about liking him.Misty was blushing earlier in the episode when accused of liking Tracey, the blush later just happened to be bigger.

I dunno, Misty's reactions about Tracey seem to... Vary. Too vague. =/

Sharpshooter
22nd November 2005, 7:39 PM
Misty was blushing earlier in the episode when accused of liking Tracey, the blush later just happened to be bigger.

I dunno, Misty's reactions about Tracey seem to... Vary. Too vague. =/

It's also possible to claim that sometimes blushing = embarresment rather than blushing = loves one another. You have to be careful when using blushing as evidence since it's not always verified.

If somebody accused you of fancying you're best friend and you were in denial and blushed about it would that mean you're gay? Probably not.

intergalactic platypus
23rd November 2005, 4:16 PM
why does it seem like people are too convinced either ship will happen? somehow i doubt either side will become a couple or have a big confession. either way, it would be a harmless crush. the characters wont hook up on either side. pokemon isnt about romance, they just insert the occasional crush to make things more interesting and give character development. i feel like we need to establish that before we continue

PokeProphet
23rd November 2005, 5:30 PM
Um, not quite. 4kids doesn't have to ask the Japanese studio permission to do anything.
Possible, but you'll have to give us more proof then this:


These are the same people who turned James into a homosexual
Even though I worship Pokemopolis, you have to admit that James homosexuality is a matter of interpretation. Lines like "it's times like this that make me want to go straight" and "and those are problems I don't want to get into (when talking about the opposite sex" are ripped out of their context, and crossdressing doesn't mean someone's homosexual. So unless the dubbers make James literally say that he's homosexual, on a moment the original writers do not, this doesn't seem valid.


and made a Trainer's Choice saying that Arbok evolved into Seviper.
Which is quite a brainfart on their behaf. And I'm not saying that the writers ask permission for everything. But the dub-added Pokeshipping hints are more then just a little mistake. GCYL, Jirachi Wishmaker, and other examples make it clear that 4Kids are doing this systematically. They are either changing the original romantic side-plot (no doubt the opinion of the Advanceshippers here) or putting much more emphasis on it then there is in the original (while it does exist in the original, no doubt the opinion of the Pokeshippers here). And if the first (changing the original plotline) is the case, I doubt that the Japanese writers didn't notice and/or approve of it.


Again Pokeshippers, let's make a topic that involves both Pokeshipping AND Advanceshipping, or just 2 diffrent topics. Advanceshippers (including me) may not like discussing just Pokeshipping in a Pokeshipping Vs Advanceshipping thread

We don't have a Pokeshipping thread for nothing -_-
My topic was about the meaning of dub-added Pokeshipping hints. And if you could somehow prove or give a good reason why dub-added Pokeshipping hints, that would be a good thing for Advanceshipping, since it would remove a lot of hints from the Pokeshippers now wouldn't it.
And if you're dying for a topic that involves both Pokeshipping and Advanceshipping, why don't you think of one yourself?


Just when I thought I'd have more time, our team makes it to playoffs and we get to go to Dallas. Or Midland... somewhere. Then the damn Thanksgiving parade. I'll shut up now.
Congrats on making it to the playoffs. Or not?


It doesn't really have to get all dramatic though. If they don't focus on it much, then I don't really see much of a problem with them just dropping it off. Good point.


GCYL seemed like a fitting end to me.
Seemed like a depressing end to me. :(


Too bad we don't know who Misty was blushing about huh? Tracey or Ash. Hmmmmage. =0
Since Orangeshipping isn't the topic here, I'll kindly direct you to my post concerning the blushing hint in the Orangeshipping and the Pokeshipping vs. Orangeshipping thread.


Ouch. :(
Sorry. *gives asperine*


Cuz they can. Lame but... True. Why add hints then take some out?
That might be true, but why hasn't 4Kids added hints into other shippings then? I mean, it would have been easy to add hints to Advanceshipping or Leagueshipping for example. So why did they only add with Pokeshipping?


Misty was blushing earlier in the episode when accused of liking Tracey, the blush later just happened to be bigger.
Yep, but the emotion was different too. When accused of liking Tracey, she blushed and became angry. When accused of liking somebody else, she blushed and stared in front of her with a sad face, as in "Yes there is someone else but I can't tell anybody, not even him".


I dunno, Misty's reactions about Tracey seem to... Vary. Too vague. =/
Agreed.


If somebody accused you of fancying you're best friend and you were in denial and blushed about it would that mean you're gay? Probably not.
*gets a vision of Tracey coming to visit Misty and Sakura, then asking Misty whether Sakura is her girlfriend, with Misty blushing and denying and Sakura laughing*
*dreams away*


why does it seem like people are too convinced either ship will happen? somehow i doubt either side will become a couple or have a big confession. either way, it would be a harmless crush. the characters wont hook up on either side. pokemon isnt about romance, they just insert the occasional crush to make things more interesting and give character development. i feel like we need to establish that before we continue
Consider it established :D

CyberCubed
23rd November 2005, 6:43 PM
Even though I worship Pokemopolis, you have to admit that James homosexuality is a matter of interpretation. Lines like "it's times like this that make me want to go straight" and "and those are problems I don't want to get into (when talking about the opposite sex" are ripped out of their context, and crossdressing doesn't mean someone's homosexual. So unless the dubbers make James literally say that he's homosexual, on a moment the original writers do not, this doesn't seem valid.

I'm talking about the lines they still give James in AG! Not back in the early seasons, which are all the examples you gave. They still do this now in Pokemon Advance! In Advance he has lines saying, "I didn't think it'd be right taking it from behind." and "This is better than my favorite soap opera" and "Look at all the big strong men!" when staring at a bunch of muscle training guys.



GCYL, Jirachi Wishmaker, and other examples make it clear that 4Kids are doing this systematically. They are either changing the original romantic side-plot (no doubt the opinion of the Advanceshippers here) or putting much more emphasis on it then there is in the original (while it does exist in the original, no doubt the opinion of the Pokeshippers here).

Uh, I think you're got the wrong impression here.

4kids added some Pokeshipping hints in the first 5 seasons because at that point Pokeshipping was OBVIOUS. The Japanese made it apparent that Misty had a crush on Ash. 4kids, thinking Americans are too dumb to notice the subtle hints, made the hints even more blatant.

4kids added hints because it was obvious that Pokeshipping was being written at the time. They only made the Japanese hints more apparent. Do you think 4kids knew that Misty would be yanked out of the series eventually thus bringing Pokeshipping to a standstill? Of course not.

Besides that one line in the Jirachi movie, 4kids has NOT added a single Pokeshipping hint in AG. 4kids now realizes that since Misty was removed from the show, that it's quite possible that this pairing is over. Thus once AG started, they stopped adding any Pokeshipping hints whatsoever. Even in the Hoso specials they didn't add Pokeshipping stuff.

And I also like to say that too many Pokeshippers take that line in the Jirachi movie far too out of context. Did you guys even see the movie? Ash was trying to rationalize with Max that good friends have to go away sometimes, (because Jirachi was only with Max for that one day, and then would go to sleep for a million years, thus Max would never see him again), and 4kids thought it would be a nice nod to parallel this with Misty leaving.

I have no idea why everyone saw this as some giant hint. What Ash said in the Japanese version was something "philosophical", and 4kids thought that was lame, so they had Ash comfort Max by saying that a close friend left him too.

4kids used that as a parallel for the friendship between Max and Jirachi.

Getting back to the original point, 4kids has STOPPED adding hints altogether with AG. They haven't added any Advanceshipping hints, but then again they haven't added Contestshipping or Orangeshipping hints either. 4kids doesn't want to add hints to a pairing that might not happen, which is why they're cautious in AG.

Back in Pokemon, Ash/Misty was obvious. So 4kids made it more obvious with hints. Once she left the show, 4kids stopped adding hints because they're not sure what the Japanese writers plan to do now. 4kids could have easily added Pokeshipping hints in the Togepi 2 parter or the Hosos, but they didn't. They could have easily added lines about Ash missing Misty during various points of AG, but they didn't.

4kids only added hints because back then Pokeshipping was the only plausible ship for Ash. Now in AG, there is another plausible ship for Ash. And 4kids doesn't want to add hints in the wrong places just in case the writers go with a different ship.

Fact is, 4kids hasn't added ANY shipping hints for ANY ship once Pokemon Advance came out.

It's time to stop thinking that every employee at 4kids are obsessive fanboys who have Ash/Misty pin-up posters on their walls. ;) They're just a company trying to make a pairing more apparent to American audiences. I find it really amusing that so many Pokeshippers think that 4kids is "on their side". I mean seriously, 4kids could probably care less which girl they pair Ash up with. All 4kids wants to see is a nice heterosexual pairing between their main hero and a girl. Whether it be with Misty or May, 4kids doesn't care, they just want to see their main hero paired up with a cute girl. They only make hints more blatant than the Japanese version, that's it.

Sharpshooter
25th November 2005, 1:48 AM
Besides that one line in the Jirachi movie, 4kids has NOT added a single Pokeshipping hint in AG. 4kids now realizes that since Misty was removed from the show, that it's quite possible that this pairing is over. Thus once AG started, they stopped adding any Pokeshipping hints whatsoever. Even in the Hoso specials they didn't add Pokeshipping stuff.

Well I doubt 4kids think along those lines of it "being over", but the reason why there's been no pok&#233;shippy hints in AG is because there's been nothing to exaggurate in the first place! Plus excluding hoso's she's only been in two episodes overall so it's a bit unfair to judge based on that where there was lots more characters and action equalling to less screen time and dialogue and whatnot.

The only hint that was deducted so to speak was the "half-hearted hint" in "Delcatty got your Tounge!", and perhaps at the end of the first Misty hoso "Cerulean Blue" when she was dreaming of Ash and co, but that's more likely to be an time cut edit from 4kids's behalf as oppose to "we think Ash and Misty are over so we better get rid of that scene" (throughout the chronicles most episodes had some sort of time cut towards the end, the raikou special managed to have 2 minutes knocked and notabley in the Brock hoso Crobat and Geodude didn't appear out of their pok&#233;balls).


why does it seem like people are too convinced either ship will happen? somehow i doubt either side will become a couple or have a big confession. either way, it would be a harmless crush. the characters wont hook up on either side. pokemon isnt about romance, they just insert the occasional crush to make things more interesting and give character development. i feel like we need to establish that before we continue

It's interesting topic but you have to remember for most of these ships, certainly for Pok&#233;Shipping, and possibly for AdvancedShiping too, that it's based on the belief it will become canon somtime in the future (not like 6 months time now more like 7+ years when they've grown up). I don't expect any proper romances for any of the characters we've got currently (Brock's the most likleist as he may get it right someday :)).

CyberCubed
25th November 2005, 2:04 AM
Well I doubt 4kids think along those lines of it "being over", but the reason why there's been no pok&#233;shippy hints in AG is because there's been nothing to exaggurate in the first place! Plus excluding hoso's she's only been in two episodes overall so it's a bit unfair to judge based on that where there was lots more characters and action equalling to less screen time and dialogue and whatnot.

True. I can't wait till those 3 Pallet Town episodes after Hoenn are dubbed though, so I can see if my theory is true. If 4kids doesn't add any Pokeshipping hints in those, (which were rather Orangeshippy and Advanceshippy double whammy episodes), then I'm right. 4kids doesn't add shipping hints anymore.


The only hint that was deducted so to speak was the "half-hearted hint" in "Delcatty got your Tounge!", and perhaps at the end of the first Misty hoso "Cerulean Blue" when she was dreaming of Ash and co,

But in "Cerulean Blue" Misty was dreaming of Ash AND Brock. Pokeshippers like to spin this into a hint that Misty was thinking about Ash, but Brock was in her daydream too! So it was Misty thinking about her friends, and not just Ash.

Which is why I don't consider that Cerulean Blue daydream a hint, because Misty is thinking about both her friends.

It goes to show that some pokeshippers are desperate for anything nowadays, especially when people use emphasis on that hankerchief that Misty gave him, which Ash only used once in the Taillow episode and the writers never brought it up again. Which again, is a rather weak "hint" if you want to call it that.

intergalactic platypus
25th November 2005, 2:25 AM
True. I can't wait till those 3 Pallet Town episodes after Hoenn are dubbed though, so I can see if my theory is true. If 4kids doesn't add any Pokeshipping hints in those, (which were rather Orangeshippy and Advanceshippy double whammy episodes), then I'm right. 4kids doesn't add shipping hints anymore.



But in "Cerulean Blue" Misty was dreaming of Ash AND Brock. Pokeshippers like to spin this into a hint that Misty was thinking about Ash, but Brock was in her daydream too! So it was Misty thinking about her friends, and not just Ash.

Which is why I don't consider that Cerulean Blue daydream a hint, because Misty is thinking about both her friends.

It goes to show that some pokeshippers are desperate for anything nowadays, especially when people use emphasis on that hankerchief that Misty gave him, which Ash only used once in the Taillow episode and the writers never brought it up again. Which again, is a rather weak "hint" if you want to call it that.
the handkerchief was a hint because of what a handkerchief is traditionally said to mean when a woman presents one to a man. and advanceshippers seem VERY likely to blow hints out of proportion in the same sense, so dont say its just pokeshippers who create hints

cold_katanagirl
25th November 2005, 2:30 AM
the handkerchief was a hint because of what a handkerchief is traditionally said to mean when a woman presents one to a man.Oh yeah, because the hanky was mentioned so many times I've lost count.

Sharpshooter
25th November 2005, 2:30 AM
But in "Cerulean Blue" Misty was dreaming of Ash AND Brock. Pokeshippers like to spin this into a hint that Misty was thinking about Ash, but Brock was in her daydream too! So it was Misty thinking about her friends, and not just Ash.

Which is why I don't consider that Cerulean Blue daydream a hint, because Misty is thinking about both her friends.

Just want to clarify what I said there previously:


The only hint that was deducted so to speak was the "half-hearted hint" in "Delcatty got your Tounge!", and perhaps at the end of the first Misty hoso "Cerulean Blue" when she was dreaming of Ash and co,

:)

I only said it was a half-hearted hint only because Ash was in it!

Swifty
25th November 2005, 2:33 AM
Which is why I don't consider that Cerulean Blue daydream a hint, because Misty is thinking about both her friends.
ASSERTION: According to the Serebii episode guide, there are two instances of when Misty thinks of Ash. The first one is when Misty is handling the wild Gyarados in Cerulean Gym's swimming pool. Both Ash and Brock appear in her dream which indeed disqualifies it as a hint. However, it's also indicated that she thinks about Ash after Nurse Joy leaves the gym at the end of the Hoso. There seems to be no mention of Brock anywhere.

ANALYSIS: Albeit, even if Cerulean Blue had evidence that supported the notion that Misty still likes Ash, keep in mind that this episode takes place immediately after Gotta Catch You Later. Misty most likely still likes Ash during this time period. That doesn't give enough time for her to get over Ash. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and say Misty could have easily moved on after Cerulean Blue.

CONCLUSION: The purported hint supporting pokeshipping in Cerulean Blue is negligible since it can be easily countered with the above argument.

Sharpshooter
25th November 2005, 2:42 AM
ANALYSIS: Albeit, even if Cerulean Blue had evidence that supported the notion that Misty still likes Ash, keep in mind that this episode takes place immediately after Gotta Catch You Later. Misty most likely still likes Ash during this time period. That doesn't give enough time for her to get over Ash. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and say Misty could have easily moved on after Cerulean Blue.

Well she does, but that's not to disprove any feelings that she may still have for Ash, that's just called adapting to the situation and moving on, I mean you can't expect her to mourn over Ash in every hoso she's appears in. What sort of character development would you expect that to lead to?!

Jo-Jo
25th November 2005, 4:11 AM
While the dubbers haven't added in any new hints involving Ash since AG, they have done it for other pairings. There was some extra Jimmy/Marina material in the Legend of Thunder dub, and at least one anti-Rocketshipping line during Hoenn. Which at least is further evidence that Norman Grossfield et al. knew what they were talking about when they said Ash and Misty liked each other, since Questshipping is canon, and Rocketshipping was recently shot down in flames.

Shigeru-kun
25th November 2005, 5:18 AM
While the dubbers haven't added in any hints involving Ash, they have done it for other pairings. There was some extra Jimmy/Marina material in the Legend of Thunder dub, and at least one anti-Rocketshipping line during AG. Which at least is further evidence that Norman Grossfield et al. knew what they were talking about when they said Ash and Misty liked each other, since Questshipping is canon, and Rocketshipping was recently shot down in flames.
Considering how Marina and Kenta only appear in the Legend of Thunder, I don't think that really counts. The episode already gave away the two liked each other, so it's not like we had them for episodes before hand with 4Kids added hints. We had them once, and already with hints. So that one should be knocked off the list.

As for Rocketshipping, I can't really say. I haven't kept up with the new dub episodes too much, so I can't comment on this anti-hint. If it's alright, would you mind explaining?

Jo-Jo
25th November 2005, 5:43 AM
I don't see the problem with Jimmy/Marina... it was apparent that they liked each other, and the dubbers picked up on that and added in a couple of extra lines for them. I would argue that it's the exact same case for Pokeshipping. OK, so figuring out that Jimmy and Marina have a thing going on doesn't exactly demonstrate great intelligence, but IMO Pokeshipping was fairly apparent, too, so... :p

As for the anti-Rocketshipping bits they added, apart from all the James-is-gay lines, there was a bit in Abandon Ship that went something like this:

Max: I can't believe I thought you were just a nice old couple!
Jessie: Hmmph! Nobody's ever called us old before.
James: And certainly not a couple.

The way James says it makes it sound as though the idea of him and Jessie being a couple is even stupider than the idea of them being old.

CyberCubed
26th November 2005, 9:58 PM
Yeah, Questshipping was kind of obvious in the same way that pokeshipping was. Although Jackson/Vincent liked Marina too, so there were two guys going after one girl in that special.

Surprised whatever the ship between Jackson/Vincent and Marina isn't as popular as Kenta/Marina.

But then again the Chronicles episodes were dubbed by different people than the ones that handle the main series, so drawing conclusions between that dub and the main Pokemon dub is a stretch. Remember, those are the same guys that turned Buson into a girl, gave Jackson a new name and a new voice despite him appearing in the Johto League where Ash beat him, renamed Eusine as Eugene despite the fact that Eusine appeared in a Johto ep, and overall butchered the special as a whole.

The Chronicles guys had no idea what they were doing.

cold_katanagirl
26th November 2005, 10:03 PM
Congrats on making it to the playoffs. Or not?DUDE.

We came back with less than a minute left on the clock and tied the game. Then we went to overtime.

Quarterback threw the ball. Guy ran to catch. Missed. If he would have caught it, we would have won right then and there. Too bad.

Quarterback throws again. Tries to fake then runs like a maniac but gets attacked by about seven players. I swear, we're so close to winning it's scary.

Quarterback throws again. Someone from the other team INTERCEPTS THE BALL and runs eighty yards and ends the game, giving us our second defeat in the entire season (record was 11-2, theirs was 8-4 counting this game). If we won that game, we would have made history. But nooooooo, the ball had to get intercepted, and wtf, they so could have caught him, but they had to give up.

... Yeah. <_____<
Seemed like a depressing end to me. :(Kind of like Krillin x Marron. Except I hated Marron so... whatever...

Meganium Ex
29th November 2005, 10:40 PM
I thought I'd replied to this sonner or later

Interesting.
1. And why do the writers of US want Pokeshipping to happen?
2. And why do you think the Japanese writers don't want to?
1.I think they liked it beacause of the dub-added hints they put in thier. As much as I hate to say so, it may be true that the writers WERE into Pokeshipping. But maybe they lost thier intrest in it, like Cyber said ha almost never mentioned her in AG

2.It was just my opinion, okay? And I don't think the Japeneese writers didn't like it beacause most hints of the ship were dub-added. If the Japeenese writers like it, they would put hints in too

Also, Pokeshippers seem to be very agreesive these days

They can't take one Advanceshipper being happy beacause a Pokeshipping hint was dub-added >.>

No offence to Pokeshippers though

PokeProphet
30th November 2005, 9:53 PM
Hey peeps. Had a little pause in this debate, but I feel like there are still some things unresolved, so I came back.


I'm talking about the lines they still give James in AG! Not back in the early seasons, which are all the examples you gave. They still do this now in Pokemon Advance! In Advance he has lines saying, "I didn't think it'd be right taking it from behind." and "This is better than my favorite soap opera" and "Look at all the big strong men!" when staring at a bunch of muscle training guys.
Well, I could react on this as well, but since this isn't a discussion about James, we'll just leave it here.


4kids added some Pokeshipping hints in the first 5 seasons because at that point Pokeshipping was OBVIOUS. The Japanese made it apparent that Misty had a crush on Ash. 4kids, thinking Americans are too dumb to notice the subtle hints, made the hints even more blatant.

4kids added hints because it was obvious that Pokeshipping was being written at the time. They only made the Japanese hints more apparent.
So far, we agree.

Do you think 4kids knew that Misty would be yanked out of the series eventually thus bringing Pokeshipping to a standstill? Of course not.



Besides that one line in the Jirachi movie, 4kids has NOT added a single Pokeshipping hint in AG. 4kids now realizes that since Misty was removed from the show, that it's quite possible that this pairing is over. Thus once AG started, they stopped adding any Pokeshipping hints whatsoever. Even in the Hoso specials they didn't add Pokeshipping stuff.
But what about the times Ash mentioned Misty in the Hoenn-dub, while he didn't in the original. You know the moment we discussed earlier? Why did they add those? Why did they make Ash mention Misty?


And I also like to say that too many Pokeshippers take that line in the Jirachi movie far too out of context. Did you guys even see the movie? Ash was trying to rationalize with Max that good friends have to go away sometimes, (because Jirachi was only with Max for that one day, and then would go to sleep for a million years, thus Max would never see him again), and 4kids thought it would be a nice nod to parallel this with Misty leaving.
Well, the reason most people consider it a hint, IMO, is because what Ash says exactly. Ash cares a lot about his friends, but he doesn't speak it out that often. For him to say something like 'I miss her every day' is very dramatic, and it makes the viewer wonder why Ash misses Misty so much. Not that I consider it a hint. Ash's facial expression is totally unfit for saying something like that at the moment, and even if he had said the same thing in the Japanese version, it wouldn't have been much of a hint. But I do still wonder why they add stuff like this.


Getting back to the original point, 4kids has STOPPED adding hints altogether with AG. They haven't added any Advanceshipping hints, but then again they haven't added Contestshipping or Orangeshipping hints either. 4kids doesn't want to add hints to a pairing that might not happen, which is why they're cautious in AG.
Good point, and I agree with you. But what you say here does seem to conflict with what you said earlier in this debate:

Yep. I honestly had no problem with Pokeshipping happening until May was introduced. Once she was brought into the show and the writers developed her personality, I quickly came to the realization that this is the girl that would be absolutely perfect for Ash.
Appearantly, that realisation hasn't come for the dubbers yet. So what is it? Is it obvious that May is the perfect girl for Ash, or is it not?


Back in Pokemon, Ash/Misty was obvious. So 4kids made it more obvious with hints. Once she left the show, 4kids stopped adding hints because they're not sure what the Japanese writers plan to do now. 4kids could have easily added Pokeshipping hints in the Togepi 2 parter or the Hosos, but they didn't. They could have easily added lines about Ash missing Misty during various points of AG, but they didn't.
Yes, but like you said, they also could have added hints for various other shippings. So whether this counts as an argument against Pokeshipping is open for debate. Rather, it can be considered as an argument against every ship, not just Pokeshipping.


4kids only added hints because back then Pokeshipping was the only plausible ship for Ash. Now in AG, there is another plausible ship for Ash. And 4kids doesn't want to add hints in the wrong places just in case the writers go with a different ship.
Well, I think that we agree more on this subject then we think. We both agree that:
1. Pokeshipping was obvious during the seasons including Misty.
2. The dub-added hints were added because it was obvious.
3. At this point, we simply don't know which one of the ships will come true.

So all we disagree about, seems to be which ship we think will come true.


It's time to stop thinking that every employee at 4kids are obsessive fanboys who have Ash/Misty pin-up posters on their walls.
Errr...I never said that. Sorry if I gave you that impression. I always said that they added the hints to have more shipping in a fairly un-shippy show, and they picked the obvious ship to do so.


;) They're just a company trying to make a pairing more apparent to American audiences. I find it really amusing that so many Pokeshippers think that 4kids is "on their side".
You forgot to mention all the Advanceshippers/Slashers that seem to think that the dubbers are against them, and doing this just to annoy them. I've seen more of those then I've seen Pokeshippers saying the dubbers added the hints because they're Pokeshippers themselves. That would be dumb for a Pokeshipper to say, since it would render all the dub-added hints worthless.

I mean seriously, 4kids could probably care less which girl they pair Ash up with. All 4kids wants to see is a nice heterosexual pairing between their main hero and a girl. Whether it be with Misty or May, 4kids doesn't care, they just want to see their main hero paired up with a cute girl. They only make hints more blatant than the Japanese version, that's it.[/QUOTE]
Halleluja! :D


True. I can't wait till those 3 Pallet Town episodes after Hoenn are dubbed though, so I can see if my theory is true. If 4kids doesn't add any Pokeshipping hints in those, then I'm right.
Well, wouldn't be to quick about that one. The dubbers can either change little moments into little hints (Jirachi), or little hints into big hints (GCYL) but they can't change little moments into big hints. Since all there was in those three eps are little moment, I'm not counting on anything dub-added. Nor do I think it would prove anything. If I would have worried about every episode without (dub-added) hints between Ash and Misty, I would have died during Jotho. And you bring up an interesting point with the Orangeshipping to kill Pokeshipping thing, but I'll save that for the other debate.


It goes to show that some pokeshippers are desperate for anything nowadays,
'xcuse me? There are people on this thread that have a picture of May holding Ash while he's fishing, and consider that a shippy moment!!! I've seen Alfonso, of all people, post one moment on the Advanceshipping thread where he mentioned that Ash was looking at May WHILE SHE WAS EATING! And people reacted to that, saying that it was A PRETTY GOOD HINT! And now the Pokeshippers are desperate? Well, I know I'm not desperate. All a ship needs for it to stand a chance of becoming canon are a few good hints. And we've had those.


Oh yeah, because the hanky was mentioned so many times I've lost count.
It doesn't matter how many times they show it. All that matters is:
1. Misty gave Ash her handkerchief. Traditional sign of love.
2. Ash still had the handkerchief with him while in Hoenn. Which means it's dear to him, or at least important enough to pack when all you can take with you has to fit in a tiny backpack.


DUDE.

We came back with less than a minute left on the clock and tied the game. Then we went to overtime.

Quarterback threw the ball. Guy ran to catch. Missed. If he would have caught it, we would have won right then and there. Too bad.

Quarterback throws again. Tries to fake then runs like a maniac but gets attacked by about seven players. I swear, we're so close to winning it's scary.

Quarterback throws again. Someone from the other team INTERCEPTS THE BALL and runs eighty yards and ends the game, giving us our second defeat in the entire season (record was 11-2, theirs was 8-4 counting this game). If we won that game, we would have made history. But nooooooo, the ball had to get intercepted, and wtf, they so could have caught him, but they had to give up.
Wow, that's though. I feel sorry for you. I haven't been able to sport for one and a half week now, because of stupid stitches in my arm. Life without Judo bites.


... Yeah. <_____<Kind of like Krillin x Marron. Except I hated Marron so... whatever...
Yeah, but they made up for that by pairing him up with the second-hottest woman in DBZ (Marron being the first) and since I'm a sucker for story's where the loser get's to have the hot girl...you get my point.



1.I think they liked it beacause of the dub-added hints they put in thier. As much as I hate to say so, it may be true that the writers WERE into Pokeshipping.
I could reply to this, but maybe it's more effective if I let CyberCubed answer:


4kids added some Pokeshipping hints in the first 5 seasons because at that point Pokeshipping was OBVIOUS. The Japanese made it apparent that Misty had a crush on Ash. 4kids, thinking Americans are too dumb to notice the subtle hints, made the hints even more blatant.

4kids added hints because it was obvious that Pokeshipping was being written at the time. They only made the Japanese hints more apparent.
...
Back in Pokemon, Ash/Misty was obvious. So 4kids made it more obvious with hints.
...
4kids only added hints because back then Pokeshipping was the only plausible ship for Ash.
...
It's time to stop thinking that every employee at 4kids are obsessive fanboys who have Ash/Misty pin-up posters on their walls. ;) They're just a company trying to make a pairing more apparent to American audiences. I find it really amusing that so many Pokeshippers think that 4kids is "on their side". I mean seriously, 4kids could probably care less which girl they pair Ash up with. All 4kids wants to see is a nice heterosexual pairing between their main hero and a girl. Whether it be with Misty or May, 4kids doesn't care, they just want to see their main hero paired up with a cute girl. They only make hints more blatant than the Japanese version, that's it.
There.


2.It was just my opinion, okay? And I don't think the Japeneese writers didn't like it beacause most hints of the ship were dub-added. If the Japeenese writers like it, they would put hints in too.
They did put in hints for Pokeshipping. Hello, Pokemon2000? And nobody who knows this show, apart for EE, will deny this. The Japanese writers have put in Pokeshipping hints. End of.


Also, Pokeshippers seem to be very agreesive these days
Don't know this for sure, but if you were aiming at me while saying this:
1. I don't see the Pokeshippers on this thread behaving more agressive then the Advanceshippers are.
2. I was simply asking you a question.
3. You wanted a debate. I am/we are debating. That's why you opened this thread. If you'd look in the General Advanceshipping discussion, you will find that I haven't posted once there. The Advanceshippers there can say everything they want about their ship or Pokeshipping, I don't care. But don't open a thread for Advanceshippers and Pokeshippers to debate each other, shout some things about Pokeshipping, and then expect me to roll over and play dead. You wanted a debate, you got one. Now stop whining.


They can't take one Advanceshipper being happy beacause a Pokeshipping hint was dub-added
No. And you know why? Because a Pokeshipping hint being dub-added says NOTHING ABOUT ADVANCESHIPPING! There is nothing for Advanceshippers to be happy about. The only people that can be happy about a hint being dub-added are the Anti-Pokeshippers, and Anti-Pokeshipper =/= Advanceshipper. Advanceshippers are in it to support their ship, and I have absolutely no problem with them. Anti-Pokeshippers just hate Pokeshipping, and I don't see why I should respect them.


No offence to Pokeshippers though
That's nice. First you generalise us by saying that the Pokeshippers are behaving agressively (you could have just said that I, or another Pokeshipping individual, was behaving agressively) while they are doing absolutely nothing, and then you say "Hey, no offense!". Well, what can I say? And none taken?

CyberCubed
30th November 2005, 10:32 PM
Might as well respond to all my counterpoints:


But what about the times Ash mentioned Misty in the Hoenn-dub, while he didn't in the original. You know the moment we discussed earlier? Why did they add those? Why did they make Ash mention Misty?

This again, is making things more apparent for American audiences. Having Ash say, "That's Misty's badge" when some kid shows him the Cascade badge is just an easy way for 4kids to reference an older character.

Just like Brock mentions Prof. Ivy in the 7th movie (and that line wasn't even in the original! 4kids added a line about Prof. Ivy out of nowhere, guess they do have memory). Brock mentions how he used to work with Prof. Ivy in the 7th movie, which is another way to reference an older character.


Well, the reason most people consider it a hint, IMO, is because what Ash says exactly. Ash cares a lot about his friends, but he doesn't speak it out that often. For him to say something like 'I miss her every day' is very dramatic, and it makes the viewer wonder why Ash misses Misty so much. Not that I consider it a hint. Ash's facial expression is totally unfit for saying something like that at the moment, and even if he had said the same thing in the Japanese version, it wouldn't have been much of a hint.

Yep, but therefore since it wasn't the Japanese writers intentions, it really doesn't hold merit for anything. It's just fanon only.


But I do still wonder why they add stuff like this.

Ash can certainly mention Misty if he wants, there's no reason he can't. 4kids probably thought that was a better line, because it paralleled Max having to say goodbye to Jirachi forever.


Appearantly, that realisation hasn't come for the dubbers yet. So what is it? Is it obvious that May is the perfect girl for Ash, or is it not?

At this point in the show May really is the only plausible girl for Ash. If Misty stays where she is right now for the rest of the series, the ship is pretty much sunk. 4kids again, may not want to add any shipping hints just in case May ends up with Drew instead. It would cause continuity error to have hints toward the wrong person.


You forgot to mention all the Advanceshippers/Slashers that seem to think that the dubbers are against them, and doing this just to annoy them.

Well I don't, and people with half a brain should realize this also. You're probably talking about the more extreme fanboyish shippers, and thankfully I haven't seen any of them in this debate...or heck on this forum in general. Palletshipping is pretty much dead now that Gary left the show, so there's really nothing to argue about there.


I've seen Alfonso, of all people, post one moment on the Advanceshipping thread where he mentioned that Ash was looking at May WHILE SHE WAS EATING! And people reacted to that, saying that it was A PRETTY GOOD HINT!

You talking about the scene from when Ash had his eyes fixated on May in the "Abandon Ship" episode? It was slightly romantic due to the fact that Ash and May were standing on the boat together looking off the pier, while Brock and Max were doing other stuff on the pier far away from them. I can "sorta" see where they're coming from. Oh, and Alfonso is hilarious, so I can see him saying stuff like that. :D

Meganium Ex
1st December 2005, 12:51 AM
They did put in hints for Pokeshipping. Hello, Pokemon2000? And nobody who knows this show, apart for EE, will deny this. The Japanese writers have put in Pokeshipping hints. End of.
I said the dub writers added extra Pokeshipping hints

If you read my post correctly, I said most of the Pokeshipping hints were dub-added, okay?

I never said they didn't. I just said some were not in Jappenese

I mentioned the dub had more >.>

PokeProphet
1st December 2005, 5:18 PM
Yep, but therefore since it wasn't the Japanese writers intentions, it really doesn't hold merit for anything. It's just fanon only.
Ah. So it's like Advanceshipping :D. Just kidding, you peeps don't have to respond to that.


At this point in the show May really is the only plausible girl for Ash.
Well good point, but you're forgetting that Jessie is also the only plausible girl for James, while we all know that the change of that happening is getting smaller and smaller. And why do you think May is the only plausible girl for Ash? Because she's the only girl available right now? And isn't May also the only plausible girl for Drew?


If Misty stays where she is right now for the rest of the series, the ship is pretty much sunk.
Word. I'm not going to debate over that one. But the question is whether she will stay where she is. I mean, suppose that Misty never becomes a part of the main story again (something that, unfortunately, seems very likely right now). Despite that, I think the writers would make her appear again, even if only in the last few episodes. The writers are not going to end the show without a character that showed in 280 episodes, it would be downright cruel. Then, if you take into consideration that in those last episodes Ash will probably become the League champion, which will be a very emotional happening, and add the fact that Misty will be around for it, I say that we'll have to sit this one out and wait for the ending. I'm not saying that Advanceshipping isn't an option with Misty around, but I am saying that Pokeshipping will also be an option, if no ships involving Misty become canon. And of course this is all speculation, but then, when it comes to Pokemon and shipping, what isn't?


4kids again, may not want to add any shipping hints just in case May ends up with Drew instead.
Wow, I always thought that you don't even consider Drew as a possibility for May, but I guess you do. Guess that's one more point we agree on, although I don't care to much for Contestshipping.


It would cause continuity error to have hints toward the wrong person.
Yup. But then, if what you say is true, they already killed the continuity big time.


Well I don't, and people with half a brain should realize this also.
You'd be surprised if you knew how many people consider 4Kids a kind of Pokeshipping-Gestapo. And it isn't even that strange, if you consider 'Misty's song' for example. (Side-question; why do you think they made that one? Would be interesting to see your view on it, IMO)


I said the dub writers added extra Pokeshipping hints

If you read my post correctly, I said most of the Pokeshipping hints were dub-added, okay?

I never said they didn't. I just said some were not in Jappenese

I mentioned the dub had more >.>
:confused:
I did read your post correctly. I do remember you mentioning this:

And I don't think the Japeneese writers didn't like it beacause most hints of the ship were dub-added.
But directly after that, you said this:

If the Japeenese writers like it, they would put hints in too

Which I responded to, since they did put in hints.

CyberCubed
1st December 2005, 10:44 PM
And why do you think May is the only plausible girl for Ash?

Because who else is there? Misty is back at the Gym and Jessie is a villain. There are no other main female characters besides these three. Not to mention May and Ash have a very nice mentor/student dynamic, they get along great, have already been accused of being a couple, and had several sweet moments throughout Hoenn and the new Kanto. That and the writers have turned May into Ash's soulmate as the series went on, it's almost like they're purposely giving May and Ash more things in common.


And isn't May also the only plausible girl for Drew?

Sure. But Drew is a rival character. Do we wonder who plausible girls for Gary, Richie, Harrison and all the other rival characters are? If Drew doesn't get May, we don't have to look for a substitiute for him. He's just a rival character and not a main one, thus his love life isn't terribly important. Not to mention Drew may be written out of the show just like Gary was once May defeats him at a Grand Festival.


Word. I'm not going to debate over that one. But the question is whether she will stay where she is. I mean, suppose that Misty never becomes a part of the main story again (something that, unfortunately, seems very likely right now).

We'll see what happens when the D/P cast is revealed late next year. If Misty still isn't there well...then it's quite obvious she was written out of the show permanantly. Missing 3 major regions in a row will have sealed it. Just like Tracey will probably never become a main character again, if Misty sits out for 3 regions in a row, it's a pretty much done deal.


Despite that, I think the writers would make her appear again, even if only in the last few episodes. The writers are not going to end the show without a character that showed in 280 episodes, it would be downright cruel.

Well aren't they already doing this? She came back for two episodes in Hoenn and then another 3 episodes in Kanto. The writers will never get rid of Misty entirely, we'll definitely see her from time to time. Just like Tracey still appears in the show, Misty will as well. Misty's appeareances will probably be as often as Tracey's or Delia's appeareances in the future. i.e. Ash will probably only see Misty right before he heads off to the next region.


Then, if you take into consideration that in those last episodes Ash will probably become the League champion, which will be a very emotional happening, and add the fact that Misty will be around for it, I say that we'll have to sit this one out and wait for the ending.

True, but I can see ALL of Ash's friends coming to watch his major victory in person. It won't be just Misty...Tracey, Delia, Oak and some others will probably come with her.


I'm not saying that Advanceshipping isn't an option with Misty around, but I am saying that Pokeshipping will also be an option, if no ships involving Misty become canon. And of course this is all speculation, but then, when it comes to Pokemon and shipping, what isn't?

Agreed.


Wow, I always thought that you don't even consider Drew as a possibility for May, but I guess you do. Guess that's one more point we agree on, although I don't care to much for Contestshipping.

Well of course I think Contestshipping is a possibility, but that doesn't mean I like it. Do I want Contestshipping to happen? Of course not, since May is the best girl for Ash at the moment and I don't like the idea of a rival character getting the main girl. :p

So while I don't ignore the possibility of Contestshipping, it's not like I want it to happen. I'm not one of those people who bash oppossing ships for no reason. But in the end I don't expect it to happen anyway so it's no big deal.


Yup. But then, if what you say is true, they already killed the continuity big time.

Well what 4kids added in the first 5 seasons was fine. The one line in the movie again, could be seen as both friendship and/or shippy. It's not a terribly shippy line honestly, it could go either way.

Satoshi
3rd December 2005, 5:12 AM
As much as I hate to say so, it may be true that the writers WERE into Pokeshipping. But maybe they lost thier intrest in it, like Cyber said ha almost never mentioned her in AG
They never mentioned her in AG because the writers were busy focusing on AG, they didn't want to bring up an old character from the past while they were busy making scenerios for Houen episodes. Maybe a small reference, but that's it.

2.It was just my opinion, okay? And I don't think the Japeneese writers didn't like it beacause most hints of the ship were dub-added. If the Japeenese writers like it, they would put hints in too
The Japanese writers were interested and liked the idea for Pokeshipping in the past, and maybe they still like it now, but that's unlikely. And there were hints in the original too. Next time, do a little research before implying false assumptions.

Also, Pokeshippers seem to be very agreesive these days
Pokeshippers here tend to be very tame. And who's to say the same about anti Pokeshippers/Advanceshippers?

They can't take one Advanceshipper being happy beacause a Pokeshipping hint was dub-added >.>
Pokeshippers (most) don't care if Advanceshippers are happy or not, it's none of there business. You make it seem like Pokeshippers and Advanceshippers are mortal enemies or something, hypocrite much?

No offence to Pokeshippers though
I beg to differ. You make horrid opinions about Pokeshippers, and you expect them to take no offense to it. LMAO

Because who else is there? Misty is back at the Gym and Jessie is a villain.
That's not entirely true CyberCubed. Just because Kasumi is at the gym doesn't make her an any less plausible girl for Satoshi than Haruka is.

CyberCubed
3rd December 2005, 6:50 AM
That's not entirely true CyberCubed. Just because Kasumi is at the gym doesn't make her an any less plausible girl for Satoshi than Haruka is.

True, but not being a main character anymore greatly hurts her chances. If we only see Misty once every 100 episodes or so, it's quite hard to build an ongoing romance over that.

Which is why, as long as Misty remains off the series, Pokeshipping does not look very viable. Thus she's not a plausible choice at the moment, even if she was for the first 5 seasons.

Misty-Fan-Forever
3rd December 2005, 8:07 AM
That is true. But she was written out becasue her character wasn't as fresh as it used to be so they took her out. That was for (if they decide to bring her back in) time away and possible character development.

Somehow if May left the show to stay home I doubt many Advanceshippers would say that it's the end of Advanceshipping.

CyberCubed
3rd December 2005, 3:35 PM
It most likely would be, I just can't see them writing a romance between the main hero and another character who hardly appears in the show anymore. If May were ever removed from the show, I'd declare that ship welll... "over" as well.

But since she's a co-star of the series, I don't have to worry about that anytime soon. At least she won't be dropped at the drop of a hat like Misty, Brock, Tracey, and Max could. The writers have turned May into the second most important character in the series right after Ash, so at least the ship is stable since we know that May will probably be in the series as long as the show focuses on Ash. The writers found their main male and female, they'll be here till the end unless the writers decide to completely revamp the show and start with an all-new cast.

Basically as long as there is a show that stars Ash, there most likely will be May. The writers have already pretty much bound them together by the mentor/student relationship.

Swifty
4th December 2005, 3:30 PM
True, but not being a main character anymore greatly hurts her chances. If we only see Misty once every 100 episodes or so, it's quite hard to build an ongoing romance over that.What do you mean an on-going romance being hard to write with a main character and a minor character? Drew's not a main character of Pokemon. He's only in about 10% of the episodes in Advanced Generation, yet the writers have managed to write a developing on-going relationship between him and May. If there was no evidence of Misty liking Ash prior to Advanced Generation or if the amount of hints supporting Misty x Ash were negligible, then I'd probably agree with you. Why write an on-going romance between a main character and a minor character who never even showed romantic feelings for each other in the first place? It would certainly be difficult to write considering how hard it is to develop romance with such a small handful of episodes... Wait, didn't I just describe ContestShipping? :)

In our case, Misty has indeed showed evidence of liking Ash throughout her stay as a main cast member on the TV show. The producers already have a five year foundation between Ash and Misty at their disposal. If they want to take PokeShipping off the back burner all of a sudden, they can simply do it with a single episode and use the Kanto, Orange Islands, and Johto episodes as buttresses.

I don't seem to understand how it would be so difficult to write an on-going romantic subplot between a minor character and a main character, especially if romance isn't even a central issue in Pokemon. I guess this is where the central disagreement seems to exist between you and me in terms of script writing philosophy.

CyberCubed
4th December 2005, 6:01 PM
But Contestshipping is different. Drew at least APPEARS in the series. He's an important character for May's contest arc. Thus we know we're going to see him every 20-30 episodes or so until the GF.

Misty has nothing to do with Ash's storyline. And also the fact that we only see her once every 100 episodes as oppossed to Drew who we see every 30 or so episodes is a big difference.

One character was written off the show, the other is still here...for now anyway. If they were continuing Pokeshipping, those 3 Pallet Town episodes would have been scripted differently. Both Ash and Misty had incredibly lackluster "reunions" with each other after not seeing each other for so long. That and Misty acted like Ash's good friend throughout those episodes, and not once was Misty's crush either mentioned or made apparent.

If the writers aren't even going to remind us or do anything for the ship...what is the point?

This show is called Advanced Generation, for the simple fact that a new generation of kids are growing up and watching Pokemon. This new generation of kids don't even know who Misty is, since she's only been in 5 AG episodes. If the writers wanted to continue Pokeshipping they'd have to actually do something for it again, or this new "Advance Generation" fanbase would have no idea that Misty ever liked Ash. Misty is a non-factor to the AG audience, since May has always been the main female to them, and not Misty. As for the older Pokemon fans who have watched the early seasons, the writers have been slowly fading Pokeshipping out into obscurity so it actually makes sense that Misty's crush is fading. They're written Misty maturing into the storyline perfectly, so both old and new fans alike can see the difference in that ship in the show.

Satoshi
4th December 2005, 8:23 PM
One character was written off the show, the other is still here...for now anyway. If they were continuing Pokeshipping, those 3 Pallet Town episodes would have been scripted differently. Both Ash and Misty had incredibly lackluster "reunions" with each other after not seeing each other for so long. That and Misty acted like Ash's good friend throughout those episodes, and not once was Misty's crush either mentioned or made apparent.
But, you know, the writers don't have to focus on shipping 100% of the time. IMO, the reason they made Kasumi re-join the group for 2-4 episodes in BF is because they're re-introducing an old character, and like you said, the new group of audience probably don't know who Kasumi is, and that was a good opportunity to introduce a character that the new audience never knew. So I think that those first BF episodes was based soley on re-introducing Kasumi and giving Masato and Kasumi time to interact.

Just killing off Pokeshipping like that doesn't really make sense......come to think of it, nothing in Pokemon makes sense, so scratch that. >_>

Swifty
4th December 2005, 11:11 PM
If the writers aren't even going to remind us or do anything for the ship...what is the point?

This show is called Advanced Generation, for the simple fact that a new generation of kids are growing up and watching Pokemon. This new generation of kids don't even know who Misty is, since she's only been in 5 AG episodes. I guess the argument is dependant on whether Misty's feelings for Ash have changed. Although there was no focus of Misty's crush on Ash during her four episodes on Advance Generation, there has been no absolute incontrovertible evidence that PokeShipping is no longer a viable ship to write anymore besides OrangeShipping. As for my opinions regarding the plausibility if that, I'll cite our debate thread (http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/showthread.php?t=10552) over at Bulbagarden.

The most secure declaration one can do in describing the current status of Ash and Misty seems to be that the writers have simply put it on the backburner. It's not over, dead, or un-revivable. It's just simply inactive.


If the writers wanted to continue Pokeshipping they'd have to actually do something for it again, or this new "Advance Generation" fanbase would have no idea that Misty ever liked Ash. Misty is a non-factor to the AG audience, since May has always been the main female to them, and not Misty. Do you have any demographics data on that? Nielsen ratings? A part of me thinks you underestimate this "new Advance Generation fanbase." Considering the amount of immature GakiShippers we're known to having on Serebii and the PokeCommunity and the rate we're still getting them registering here, something tells me that younger fans still have an easy time figuring out where Misty's feelings lied during Kanto, Orange Islands, and Johto. :P

Don't take the above argument so seriously, though :P. My main counter are these two words: status quo. Why perform a laborous coup de'tat love interest shift between two characters when love wasn't even a major theme in both Pocket Monsters and Advanced Generation to begin with? Why should the writers butter up a new younger fanbase to a new pairing when the writers could care less about what their fanbase thinks regarding who should hook up with who? PokeShipping has been simply shelved. In light of the writers' "awesome" propensity to write romance on Pokemon, something tells me they don't want to be arsed to exposition and rebuild another Ash-ship that'll take forever to fully realize. Misty not showing her feelings for Ash during her only four episodes on Advance Generation seems to convey to me that putting a romance subplot that already had been expositioned for five years on the backburner on a non-romantic anime like Pokemon won't hurt much at all.

CyberCubed
4th December 2005, 11:24 PM
Don't take the above argument so seriously, though :P. My main counter are these two words: status quo. Why perform a laborous coup detat love interest shift between two characters when love wasn't even a major theme in both Pocket Monsters and Advanced Generation to begin with?

Exactly my point. Why stay on an older ship between two characters when one of them isn't even in the show anymore? The writers aren't writing some big major love shift. All there was, was a crush. Not a couple. Crushes can easily be written out, especially if the characters never got together. All they're doing is having one pairing fade into obscurity, and potentially bringing a new one into the open. Love is a subplot, but the writers still clearly like it. There will most likely be a subtle romance in every season of the Pokemon anime until it ends.


Why should the writers butter up a new younger fanbase to a new pairing when the writers could care less about what their fanbase thinks regarding the who should hook up with who?

Oh, I don't think it's because they're trying to butter up the fanbase to like a new ship. It's because the writers themselves decided to change their minds. Once they wrote Misty out of the show, they realized Pokeshipping was no longer a feasible subplot. Misty's departure from the show was NOT a sudden move that came out of nowhere. The writers probably planned on removing Misty a full season or two in advance. Which is also probably why Pokeshipping hints in Johto were so few and far inbewteen, since they knew that Misty wouldn't be in the show for much longer.


Misty not showing her feelings for Ash during her only four episodes on Advance Generation seems to convey to me that putting a relationship on the backburner on a show like Pokemon won't hurt.

Time is passing. The longer Misty remains out of the show, the less likely it is that the writers will return to this ship. Suppose the anime is still airing 10 years from now, and Misty has remained out of the show for the next 10 seasons. When Pokeshipping is but an ancient memory then compared to now, why should they go back to it out of nowhere? Especially when they have a main male and female co-star of AG who already show a strong bond with each other?

This is why I believe that as more time passes, the more the writers will move on. They've already done a good job at phasing the ship out over the last 4 years, and it will only continue to fade as the show continues.

Bottom line, the only way Pokeshipping will return to the fold is if Misty is re-introduced to the main cast. And since even that seems incredibly unlikely nowadays, I certainly don't think it's pre-mature to count Pokeshipping as a "non-feasible" ship for the series.

Swifty
5th December 2005, 10:33 AM
Exactly my point. Why stay on an older ship between two characters when one of them isn't even in the show anymore? The writers aren't writing some big major love shift. All there was, was a crush. Not a couple.Yes, not a couple, but a crush that was incredibly iconic. The Ash Crush was a major defining characteristic of Misty and has received a significant amount of screentime in Pocket Monsters. Not to mention, the Misty mythos in general seems to have Misty's love life be a major factor in play. PokeSpecial had Misty crushing after Red. The Ono manga had Misty crushing after Ash. Gold/Silver/Crystal makes it a point to show Misty going on a date with some dude. To make a Misty ditch an old flame doesn't make sense in her character, especially taking into account the intensity of her feelings that she conveyed throughout the anime. To keep her patient and faithful to her best friend who she had many cherished memories with makes perfect sense in her character. That's my rationalization of why Misty would still be written to keep her affectionate feelings for Ash; for the sake of her characterization.


The longer Misty remains out of the show, the less likely it is that the writers will return to this ship. Suppose the anime is still airing 10 years from now, and Misty has remained out of the show for the next 10 seasons. When Pokeshipping is but an ancient memory then compared to now, why should they go back to it out of nowhere?LOL. Sure, I'll appease you. It'll take me 10 years to realize that Ash and Misty's relationship is dead. :D

CyberCubed
5th December 2005, 3:25 PM
Yes, not a couple, but a crush that was incredibly iconic. The Ash Crush was a major defining characteristic of Misty and has received a significant amount of screentime in Pocket Monsters.

They've changed Misty so much from her original introduction though. The crush may been iconic, but Misty herself has went through various stages of maturing since she joined the show. Let me reply to this:


Not to mention, the Misty mythos in general seems to have Misty's love life be a major factor in play. PokeSpecial had Misty crushing after Red. The Ono manga had Misty crushing after Ash. Gold/Silver/Crystal makes it a point to show Misty going on a date with some dude.

Does this really matter? What happens in the manga doesn't effect the anime. I think it was obvious that all forms of media at the time intended for Misty to fall for Ash. After all, Misty was the main female of the Pokemon anime...for like...ever. If you told anyone back then that Misty would leave the show and not be a main character anymore, they'd laugh at you in your face and say "Yeah right, they'll never get rid of Misty!". :rolleyes: If the writers can take a main character like Misty and remove her entirely from the show, I don't see why a crush cannot be changed either.


To make a Misty ditch an old flame doesn't make sense in her character, especially taking into account the intensity of her feelings that she conveyed throughout the anime.

It DOES make sense for her character. The whole point about Misty's character is she's struggling to find a place in the world. When we first meet her she ran away from Cerulean Gym, which is why she's fishing in a lake in Pallet town in the first episode. The whole point is that Misty was too immature and young to accept her responsibilities at the Gym (not to mention her overbearing sisters that got all the good looks), so she ran away.

It took her 3 full regions, plus Togepi to finally mature. When her sisters first call her to return to the Gym, Misty is very disappointed.

However, as more time passes as shown in the Hoso's, Misty actually likes being the Gym leader now. It's probably something she's always wanted, but she needed to mature to realize it. She's even on better terms with her sisters now, as Daisy and Misty get along just fine.

The crush is also an aspect of maturing. If the writers can have Misty realize that she can't follow Ash around till the end of her life, then they can have her move on with her love life. Sure, she may still have a lingering feeling for Ash deep down, but there's no reason that she can't finally look for someone else, especially since she knows she won't be traveling with him anymore for...well...the forseeable future. Misty could have very well traveled with Ash again when Daisy returned, but Misty turned it down. Even when given the offer to run off to Hoenn and stay with Ash and friends, Misty declines and says that she'd rather be the Cerulean Gym leader.


To keep her patient and faithful to her best friend who she had many cherished memories with makes perfect sense in her character. That's my rationalization of why Misty would still be written to keep her affectionate feelings for Ash; for the sake of her characterization.

Regardless if Misty's crush fades, she is STILL Ash's best friend. That won't change. Ash and Misty will remain good friends forever, just like Misty is good friends with Brock. She's not losing character, she's gaining it. Perhaps you need to really watch all these Johto and Hoenn episodes that you've missed to see what I'm talking about. That's over 200+ episodes to see. ;)

Kasumi-chan
11th December 2005, 4:24 PM
Here is some thing for the Advancedshippers to chew on: i found something on the OFFICIAL pokemon site that practically says that ash and misty like each other. i'll post the link to it tomorrow. and anyways, ash mentions something about misty in the 6th movie, doesnt he??

Meganium Ex
11th December 2005, 4:26 PM
Yeah, but It's not really a hint IMO

I think he only said it to cheer Max up ^^

Sushi
11th December 2005, 4:42 PM
i found something on the OFFICIAL pokemon site that practically says that ash and misty like each other. i'll post the link to it tomorrow.
Unless it's the official JAPANESE Pokémon Site (or better, the Pocket Monsters section of the TV Tokyo site), you won't see me chewing on anything XP 4Kids and Co. have been working on the show for like seven years now, yet they still prove very often how little they know about the show and Pokémon itself.
The only thing I give pokemon.com credit for is the adorable layout <3


and anyways, ash mentions something about misty in the 6th movie, doesnt he??
Jirachi Wish Maker = Yes.
The Wishing Star of Seven Nights - Jirachi = No.

CyberCubed
11th December 2005, 4:44 PM
Here is some thing for the Advancedshippers to chew on: i found something on the OFFICIAL pokemon site that practically says that ash and misty like each other.

The official Pokemon site has nothing to do with the anime. They do not write the show, they have nothing to do with TVTokyo, they don't get inside info of future storylines. It's run by 20 something year olds who make it Nintendo's propaganda site. Likewise if this is the thing from that mailbag, then uh...no.

Satoshi
11th December 2005, 6:16 PM
FYI, The "Official" Pokemon site ain't really "official" if it ain't ran by the Japanese creators, which it's NOT. Which means whatever they said about Satoshi and Kasumi there isn't really canon.

And if it's from that mailbag thingy, it's been posted many times and it's been proven that what they said wasn't canon many times. :P


and anyways, ash mentions something about misty in the 6th movie, doesnt he??
It was friggin dub added. It was so obvious, Satoshi's expression doesn't even match the scene.

Chaka27
12th December 2005, 9:10 PM
Here is some thing for the Advancedshippers to chew on: i found something on the OFFICIAL pokemon site that practically says that ash and misty like each other. i'll post the link to it tomorrow. and anyways, ash mentions something about misty in the 6th movie, doesnt he??

I Belive you [TOTAL SARCASM] the REAL offical pokemon site (made by the REAL writers) is in japaneese!Plus My neighbor loves pokemon and has family in japan and goes there every summer and in Japan May is wicked popular and there are MANY MANY more Advanceshippers and the writers in Japan control the shipping and my neighborsuncle who works for TV Tokyo says advanceshipping has a better chance, otherwise Misty wouldnt have left.

Shadowcat
15th December 2005, 5:44 AM
*Checks list. It says: 'Do Not Post Anything Stupid**

Actually, there is no Offical Pokemon Site for the Anime, unless the writers decide to make one.

Let me rant about an ancient episode, which most have forgotten.

'The Misty Mermaid'. Ash did see Misty in trouble and was the first one to have any reaction to it. Brock then noticed, agreeing with Ash, and the two helped Misty.

Brock, was not even of use in that episode, considering the team he had during that episode. So let's leave him out of this......

Then, the crowd, regarded in a sense that Ash, was the 'Prince Charming' in that show in Cerulean. (The Crowd in the Show, not us.) Due to the fact that other than Misty being the main one battling, Ash helped her, but Brock just went into the water... for nothing except for perhaps giving them advice. *whips out VCD of that episode, and is prepared to watch it*

Also, in 'Pokemon Scent-Sastion', Brock didn't mention anythign about Ash, but dear Misty did.

She said something along these lines: 'Oh if only Ash was here to here it'. Brock didn't mention him at all. And she was the only who noticed that Ash, who disguised himself as a female and called himself Ashley, and mentioned that 'she' looked pretty familiar. Those were clearly hints Misty knows Ash well and cares about Ash. She can easily tell Ash, I guess. I'll have to watch them again.

I'll stop ranting about ancient episodes now.

CyberCubed
15th December 2005, 5:51 AM
Indeed, ancient episodes from nearly 9 years ago. Pokeshipping was the most obvious ship back then, but my how times have changed.

Shadowcat
15th December 2005, 6:35 AM
*Finally does something right*

LOL Cybercubed, I have the VCDs on my desk right now. Anyways, Misty is at the Gym, like Cybercubed said, it greatly hurts her chances on being in a relationship with Ash. That is true, unless her lazy sisters finally become about half the trainer she is, then, she can leave the Gym, and possibly, have a relationship with Ash. But the chances of rejoining the group is slim, due to the fact only Daisy is seen in the Hosos. I think the writers may just leave her for most of the Hoso Episodes.

Also, leaving the Gym just to travel will be a little bad for the Gym's Reputation... And most likely Ash & May have a much higher chance in a relationship due to this. Misty may leave the Gym and rejoin the cast, making it a Love Triangle, which shall be fun, but chances are slim, as I mentioned.

Unless they decide that Misty is going on a journey with Ash, rejoining the main crew, which chances are extremely slim, there will be more hope in Advanceshipping, not that I support it...

Meganium Ex
29th December 2005, 4:29 AM
Once again!-Forgot to repsoned to this:


Which I responded to, since they did put in hints.
If the Japeenese writers like it, they would put hints in too

Mistake, I meant most hints...


Finally does something right*

LOL Cybercubed, I have the VCDs on my desk right now. Anyways, Misty is at the Gym, like Cybercubed said, it greatly hurts her chances on being in a relationship with Ash. That is true, unless her lazy sisters finally become about half the trainer she is, then, she can leave the Gym, and possibly, have a relationship with Ash. But the chances of rejoining the group is slim, due to the fact only Daisy is seen in the Hosos. I think the writers may just leave her for most of the Hoso Episodes.

Also, leaving the Gym just to travel will be a little bad for the Gym's Reputation... And most likely Ash & May have a much higher chance in a relationship due to this. Misty may leave the Gym and rejoin the cast, making it a Love Triangle, which shall be fun, but chances are slim, as I mentioned.

Unless they decide that Misty is going on a journey with Ash, rejoining the main crew, which chances are extremely slim, there will be more hope in Advanceshipping, not that I support it...

All true, and even though I don't support PokéShipping, Misty may return. Anything is possible

Satoshi
29th December 2005, 5:17 AM
Mistake, I meant most hints...
The writers *did* put in most of the hints. -_- 4kids just added a few more to the dub.

I Belive you [TOTAL SARCASM] the REAL offical pokemon site (made by the REAL writers) is in japaneese!Plus My neighbor loves pokemon and has family in japan and goes there every summer and in Japan May is wicked popular and there are MANY MANY more Advanceshippers and the writers in Japan control the shipping and my neighborsuncle who works for TV Tokyo says advanceshipping has a better chance, otherwise Misty wouldnt have left
Okay, how do we know that wasn't an utter lie? And, even if you weren't lying (which I doubt) one person that works at TV TOKYO that believs that doesn't prove anything, it just proves that he/she is an Advanceshipper. :rolleyes:

Magus
29th December 2005, 5:36 AM
Indeed, ancient episodes from nearly 9 years ago. Pokeshipping was the most obvious ship back then, but my how times have changed.
The lack of progress with Pokéshipping doesn't by itself make Advanceshipping more likely or obvious, though. Saying the hints for Advanceshipping have been slim would be generous. There is a relatively obvious ship hinted at in AG, but it's not Advanceshipping.

CyberCubed
29th December 2005, 6:43 AM
Sure, Advanceshipping hints are rare but there are quite a few of them spread throughout AG.

If you're talking about Contestshipping, it's always been more from Drew's side than May's. So I hardly see that to be a factor in this debate.

I'm not really going to add anymore to that since this is the wrong thread to debate Contestshipping in. We have another debate thread for Contestshipping, so I'd rather not turn this one off topic.

Magus
29th December 2005, 6:13 PM
Sure, Advanceshipping hints are rare but there are quite a few of them spread throughout AG.
Really? It seems to me that you usually have to stretch things pretty far to come up with those hints.

Meganium Ex
29th December 2005, 7:54 PM
Yeah, but it dosen't mean they're not there >.<

goldplumes
29th December 2005, 8:19 PM
*LOL*

This thread is so cute. It's actually depressing that the writers may end up writing Ash as asexual. >.<

Just FYI, I ship both ships. I used to tilt to Pokeshipping and I had high hopes for all the episodes when Misty came back, but when basically nothing happened except there seems to be Orangeshipping...@.@ Then I thought Advanceshipping had lots of promise until...nothing happened.

So in response to
Also, leaving the Gym just to travel will be a little bad for the Gym's Reputation... And most likely Ash & May have a much higher chance in a relationship due to this. Misty may leave the Gym and rejoin the cast, making it a Love Triangle, which shall be fun, but chances are slim, as I mentioned.

Well, that's not really true because Daisy et al came back, so it's really a conscious choice for Misty to go back. BUT we don't know the exact reason - maybe she just feels out of place, or maybe it will look out of place when Ash travels with FIVE people. (The same reason why Sakura from Johto didn't join them - because in Pokemon, four's a crowd. Max is...just Max.)


Really? It seems to me that you usually have to stretch things pretty far to come up with those hints.

Well, there is one that's somewhat solid. The Nido episode seemed to suggest Ash/May somewhat with the parallel between the man and woman. But then the man and woman kind of twist EVERYTHING into couples, which ended up including Ash/Jessie and May/James...

intergalactic platypus
29th December 2005, 8:51 PM
I Belive you [TOTAL SARCASM] the REAL offical pokemon site (made by the REAL writers) is in japaneese!Plus My neighbor loves pokemon and has family in japan and goes there every summer and in Japan May is wicked popular and there are MANY MANY more Advanceshippers and the writers in Japan control the shipping and my neighborsuncle who works for TV Tokyo says advanceshipping has a better chance, otherwise Misty wouldnt have left.
Objection. Haruka is popular in Japan granted, but I've heard from multiple sources that the writers themselves say shipping will probably not happen between the main characters. People who work for the show are reported to have said no main characters will get involved in a relationship, but the fans can feel free to write about it anyway. In all fairness, using this logic neither Misty nor May will end up with Ash, since it seems the writers only want side character ships to happen

CyberCubed
29th December 2005, 10:42 PM
Really? It seems to me that you usually have to stretch things pretty far to come up with those hints.

I'm sorry, but you don't have to stretch out anything to find Ash/May moments. Many of them are quite blatant such as:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag115dilemma6ty.jpg

and

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ashmay85.jpg

(Ash saving May and holding her hand to lead her out of danger)

and

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/bc8f7c81.jpg

Had any of the above happened between Ash and Misty, Pokeshippers would be foaming at the mouth and declaring them hints.

Magus
29th December 2005, 11:15 PM
By "hints" I didn't been "scenes that are cute and could be considered shippy if taken out of context". I was thinking more along the lines of a scene like this.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8045/ashmisty1eq.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8045/ashmisty1eq.jpg)

Or May showing obvious jealousy when somebody else shows interest in Ash, like Misty has:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9848/jealous6nz.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9848/jealous6nz.jpg)

Or Ash being distracted by jealousy, to the point that something like this happens:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7236/fall6pj.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7236/fall6pj.jpg)

cold_katanagirl
29th December 2005, 11:43 PM
Had any of the above happened between Ash and Misty, Pokeshippers would be foaming at the mouth and declaring them hints.There isn't really an indication to assume the hints are shippy though. That's the problem with alot of the Advanceshipping scenes, many of them seem purely platonic to me.

Neither May nor Ash have shown signs of being jealous of another, something that stirkes against them pretty hard. Sid would have been a good opportunity, but Ash didn't even notice the guy was there half the time. Even if he wasn't a threat (which I'd be a bit surprised if Ash noticed something like that), then I imagine he would get jealous anyway.

CyberCubed
30th December 2005, 12:08 AM
By "hints" I didn't been "scenes that are cute and could be considered shippy if taken out of context". I was thinking more along the lines of a scene like this.

None of the above scenes are taken out of context.


Or May showing obvious jealousy when somebody else shows interest in Ash, like Misty has:

Sure, but sadly, the writers haven't had any other girls hit on Ash in AG. I wonder when another filler girl will finally show interest in Ash, but it hasn't happened in AG so far.

Magus
30th December 2005, 12:13 AM
None of the above scenes are taken out of context.
If you're trying to give those scenes a romantic implication, you are taking them out of context.

cold_katanagirl
30th December 2005, 12:13 AM
Sure, but sadly, the writers haven't had any other girls hit on Ash in AG. I wonder when another filler girl will finally show interest in Ash, but it hasn't happened in AG so far.But we've had Sid, and Ash didn't care about him at all.

intergalactic platypus
30th December 2005, 12:24 AM
I'm sorry, but you don't have to stretch out anything to find Ash/May moments. Many of them are quite blatant such as:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ag115dilemma6ty.jpg

and

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/MayHaruka/ashmay85.jpg

(Ash saving May and holding her hand to lead her out of danger)

and

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/scott85/bc8f7c81.jpg

Had any of the above happened between Ash and Misty, Pokeshippers would be foaming at the mouth and declaring them hints.
If we want to use this logic, then I guess this pic is proof that filler guy marcel and brock are in love. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/medea10/Random/AG88_150.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/medea10/Random/090.jpg Or perhaps May loves Harley now?

cold_katanagirl
30th December 2005, 12:28 AM
Hm, those pics seem more on the platonic side to me. Saving isn't really a hint to me unless it's a special circumstance... Hellooooo InuKag.

The difference between the pics posted (hopefully no one is posting while I am) aren't the smae though. The one with Brock seems to be something for humor, and we know for a fact that Harley hates May and he's probably just trying to manipulate her like he usually does.

CyberCubed
30th December 2005, 12:32 AM
buttersgirl, those pics are completely difference scenarios. Brock/Vigoroth guy is clearly done for comedy, meanwhile Harley was trying to trick May into trusting him again. They share NOTHING in common with the situations Ash and May are in above, besides physical contact.


If you're trying to give those scenes a romantic implication, you are taking them out of context.

They certainly are, especially the first and third one. The middle being one of those "saving" scenes that Ash went alone to help May in, and it's certainly nice to see Ash lead May by the hand something the writers have never done everytime Ash rescued Misty. The writers have had Misty cling to Ash in various episodes in the 1st season, and now, they've had May cling to Ash in various episodes in AG. There's a reason why they have May constantly clinging to Ash rather than say, Brock. Why? Because the writers are obviously not writing a ship between May and Brock, yet they are going out of their way to create several scenes between Ash and May.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that Pokeshipping has a gazillion more blatant hints than Advanceshipping does. That should be obvious to anyone. My argument is not to pretend that all those Pokeshipping hints didn't happen, or to argue and say they're not hints. Because quite frankly, they are hints. All I'm here to argue about is that Pokeshipping has been discarded after Johto ended, kicked into the curb and buried 6 feet under, while the writers have then been creating several moments between Ash and May in AG. I'm here to argue that Pokeshipping has been resolved and is over, not that it never existed.


But we've had Sid, and Ash didn't care about him at all.

The difference between Sid and Rudy/Danny is that Sid was only there for comic relief. It was a joke ship, as May clearly didn't want him. With Danny/Rudy, that WASN'T done for comedy. They were serious characters, who Misty or vice versa had interest in each other. Sid was created because the writers wanted to poke fun at the various May fanboys in real life (the writers obviously know people like me exist :p ) and tried to parody real life May fanboys. Having May show distaste over him was the perfect way to do it. Sure, we can argue that Ash could have gotten jealous of him, but then that's taking Sid's whole purpose out of context. Why should Ash getting jealous over a boy that May doesn't even like? Or rather us the audience, who see Sid as a character for comic relief, rather than a serious threat like what Danny or Rudy appeared to be with Misty. There's a big difference.

cold_katanagirl
30th December 2005, 12:42 AM
There difference between Sid and Rudy/Danny is that Sid was only there for comic relief. It was a joke ship, as May clearly didn't want him.I see situations where there have been comedic (that's probably not even a word, meh) unrequited scenes and the guy still gets jealous. I wasn't really under the impression Danny didn't really appear to be all that serious either.
With Danny/Rudy, that WASN'T done for comedy. They were serious characters, who Misty or vice versa had interest in each other.I thought Danny x Misty was supposed to be one sided on Misty's side. I don't recall Danny hinting anything besides calling her pretty or something, but it's been ages since I've seen that.
Sure, we can argue that Ash could have gotten jealous of him, but then that's taking Sid's whole purpose out of context.This scenario sounds oddly similair to something in DN Angel, except it was a girl hitting on the guy in a funny way and the girl got jealous anyway.
Why should Ash getting jealous over a boy that May doesn't even like?... Because that's what guys normally do? o_o
Or rather us the audience, who see Sid as a character for comic relief, rather than a serious threat like what Danny or Rudy appeared to be with Misty. There's a big difference.Ash didn't get jealous when May was dancing with that guy either, unless that was supposed to be for comedy too.

CyberCubed
30th December 2005, 12:44 AM
I wasn't really under the impression Danny didn't really appear to be all that serious either.

By serious I mean "not done for comic relief". We weren't suppossed to be laughing about Misty showing interest in Danny. Honestly, it's not that hard to see the difference between a character like Sid and May's reaction to him and a character like Danny and Misty's flirting with him.


Ash didn't get jealous when May was dancing with that guy either, unless that was supposed to be for comedy too.

Um, that Movie 8 scene was a ballroom dance where the dancers kept switching partners. The dancers would be paired up with people and get flung to a new partner. May danced with Freddy (I think that was his name) and then got switched over to James. May dancing with James was hella funny might I add. :D

May didn't dance with someone for romance, it was a ballroom dance with switching partners. Completely different scenario.

cold_katanagirl
30th December 2005, 12:46 AM
Um, that Movie 8 scene was a ballroom dance where the dancers kept switching partners. The dancers would randomly be paired up with people and get flung to a new partner. May danced with Freddy (I think that was his name) and then got switched over to James. May dancing with James was hella funny might I add. :D

May didn't dance with someone for romance, it was a ballroom dance with randomly switching partners. Completely different scenario.Ah nevermind then, someone told me they picked their partners.
By serious I mean "not done for comic relief". We weren't suppossed to be laughing about Misty showing interest in Danny. Honestly, it's not that hard to see the difference between a character like Sid and May's reaction to him and a character like Danny and Misty's flirting with him.I it seemed to be trying to get you to laugh. How was Ash running up to Misty and expecting to get a blanket then her ditching him for Danny and his reaction not funny?

Even I thought that a bit funny.

CyberCubed
30th December 2005, 12:56 AM
Well let's put it this way, Misty openly flirted with Danny to get Ash jealous. Danny wasn't a character done for comic relief. Some of the events that Misty shared with Danny toward Ash could be considered funny, but his "role" wasn't to be a joke character. He was a Gym leader, not a rabid fanboy (Sid)

On May's side, she did not flirt with Sid. Everytime Sid came up to her she tried to brush him off, avoid him, or showed continued disinterest in him. There's nothing funnier than Sid running toward May expecting a big hug only for May to quickly walk out of the way and having Sid run face first into a Metagross instead. :D

intergalactic platypus
30th December 2005, 2:03 AM
Ash has never gotten jealous of Drew either though. I know you don't support contestshipping cyber, but if Ash were going to freak out jealously then he would do so when another guy gives his crush a rose. And if you want better pics with similar context to the ones you showed, how bout the one where James is leading Jesse onto the hot air balloon in Holy Matrimony? That could be considered the same kind of context, if not more romantic, but rocketshipping has been shot down by the writers. Or perhaps when Ash is holding Gary, ya know the one that all the palletshippers drag out all the time. Palletshipping is certainly just a fan dream but that pic could be considered more shippy then your Ash/May pics. The point is those kind of moments happen between many characters

Magus
30th December 2005, 2:25 AM
buttersgirl, those pics are completely difference scenarios. Brock/Vigoroth guy is clearly done for comedy, meanwhile Harley was trying to trick May into trusting him again. They share NOTHING in common with the situations Ash and May are in above, besides physical contact.
You're right, if you look at the context those pictures aren't shippy at all. But physical contact is also the only thing your scenes have going for them as shipping hints. They're not romantic scenes. They don't show or imply that Ash has any romantic interest in May, or vice versa.


They certainly are, especially the first and third one. The middle being one of those "saving" scenes that Ash went alone to help May in, and it's certainly nice to see Ash lead May by the hand something the writers have never done everytime Ash rescued Misty. The writers have had Misty cling to Ash in various episodes in the 1st season, and now, they've had May cling to Ash in various episodes in AG. There's a reason why they have May constantly clinging to Ash rather than say, Brock. Why? Because the writers are obviously not writing a ship between May and Brock, yet they are going out of their way to create several scenes between Ash and May.
If that's what the writers are doing, why are they not producing scenes that actually have a romantic connotation? I'd say because the writers aren't pushing Advanceshipping and all it's got for hints are moments of platonic friendship that get taken out of context. Physical contact isn't inherently shippy.


Don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that Pokeshipping has a gazillion more blatant hints than Advanceshipping does. That should be obvious to anyone. My argument is not to pretend that all those Pokeshipping hints didn't happen, or to argue and say they're not hints. Because quite frankly, they are hints. All I'm here to argue about is that Pokeshipping has been discarded after Johto ended, kicked into the curb and buried 6 feet under, while the writers have then been creating several moments between Ash and May in AG. I'm here to argue that Pokeshipping has been resolved and is over, not that it never existed.
Moments of friendship, not of romance. Ash and May are friends, nobody is arguing against that. But it is possible for a boy and a girl to be platonic friends. If those scenes you posted had Brock instead of Ash (or May, for that matter), but were otherwise identical, would you still think they were shipping hints?

That's actually a good test for hints in general: would you still think it was a hint if it was between characters you don't ship for?


The difference between Sid and Rudy/Danny is that Sid was only there for comic relief. It was a joke ship, as May clearly didn't want him. With Danny/Rudy, that WASN'T done for comedy. They were serious characters, who Misty or vice versa had interest in each other. Sid was created because the writers wanted to poke fun at the various May fanboys in real life (the writers obviously know people like me exist :p ) and tried to parody real life May fanboys. Having May show distaste over him was the perfect way to do it. Sure, we can argue that Ash could have gotten jealous of him, but then that's taking Sid's whole purpose out of context. Why should Ash getting jealous over a boy that May doesn't even like? Or rather us the audience, who see Sid as a character for comic relief, rather than a serious threat like what Danny or Rudy appeared to be with Misty. There's a big difference.
If the writers are "going out of their way" to create Advanceshipping hints like you think, why hasn't there been a situation like that that wasn't done for comedy? Sid didn't have to be a joke character, the writers chose for the story to play out that way. They could've made him a serious character who Ash would have a real reason to be jealous of (if he was interested in May as more than a friend) if they wanted. Or they could've taken the even easier route and had an episode with Ash getting jealous of Drew, who's far from a joke character and obviously interested in May. It hasn't happened. Why? I think I already addressed that earlier in this post.

Jo-Jo
30th December 2005, 9:15 PM
To add to what everyone else has said, if you think those Ash/May scenes are shippy, then you'll probably be interested in the following screenshots. I took them all from the Jirachi Wishmaker movie, so they'll obviously be spoilery. There are a lot of pics, so apologies to anyone on dialup.


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1300/jirachi0016ir.png

When Ash nearly falls off the stage catching Pikachu, Max grabs hold of his jacket. Can be compared to the scene in the Dragonaire ep, where May grabs Ash's waist to help him reel in whatever's on the end of his fishing line.


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9229/jirachi0028or.png

...and then Ash falls on top of him. Oo-er. ;) Who wants to bet if May had been in Max's place, that screenshot would have been stuck in people's sigs across the forum?


http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/8725/jirachi0036jr.png

That's May stroking Max's hair, if it isn't clear.


http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/7243/jirachi0048zd.png

When Jirachi buries May in a stack of candy, Ash and Brock help her down.


http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/9223/jirachi0053hc.png

And here's May pulling Max away from danger by the hand. Just like Ash pulled May by the hand in Grass Hysteria.


http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/7963/jirachi0066wd.png

^ Hawt.


http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/7808/jirachi0071mu.png

Max puts his arms around Ash's waist when they go to rescue Jirachi from Butler's machine. Just before they take to the air, Ash smiles at Max and tells him to hold on tightly. *gasp* The little playah!


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1872/jirachi0083oz.png

My my, is that May putting her hands on Max's shoulders while looking into his eyes? :o !!!


http://img433.imageshack.us/img433/9758/jirachi0091bm.png

And a hug to follow up. By the touching=romance shippy standard that Advanceshippers so often assert, that would make this May/Max scene more shippy than the corresponding Advanceshipping scene in the Donphan ep.


http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/9458/jirachi0109hd.png

I took another pic just so you can see more clearly. There are tears in May's eyes, and she's got her face pressed up against Max's - see, she's knocking his glasses lopsided.


http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6332/jirachi0115fx.png

This time it's Ash protecting Max from danger.


http://img434.imageshack.us/img434/8195/jirachi0128bc.png

And Jessie and James holding each other after being rescued from the Groudon monster.

That's without even looking at all the cuddling that goes on between Max and Jirachi. Also, I stuck to only the moments of physical affection between the twerps - there are several instances, for example, where May gazes fondly at Max or worries about him, and two where she sings him a lullaby. The May/Max relationship in that movie is far closer and more intense than the Ash/May one has ever been in the anime.

No matter how hard I squint at the screen or tilt my head or cross my eyes, I just can't see any difference between the Ash/May moments and the moments for May/Max and Ash/Max, except that Ash and May are the opposite sex and not related. Those superficial details aside, there is nothing to distinguish them. Doubtless any diehard Advanceshipper is going to stubbornly insist that it does too make a difference, but if they're hoping to convince anyone other than those who want to be convinced, I imagine they're going to be disappointed.

As for the humour debate, Misty/Fiorello, Misty/Danny, Ash/Macey and to an extent Ash/Melody were all comedic pairings, and that didn't stop Ash and Misty from getting jealous. Even with the more serious ships like Misty/Rudy and Latias/Ash, the jealousy scenes were always funny, even if the relationship in general wasn't.

Besides, it's not just that Ash didn't care about Sid/May - he wasn't jealous of Harley, either, in striking contrast to Drew. Even if Harley wasn't really interested in May, why would the writers choose to let Drew get jealous but not Ash? Ash also fails to show any negative feelings at the end of Come What May, where May and Drew have their "I guess this is for Beautifly, huh?" "Yeah... something like that" exchange. Max gets a little snitty ("That guy's just as stuck-up as ever"), but all Ash does is smile and say how he can't wait to get to the next gym. And of course we all know about his lack of reaction at the end of the Grand Festival.

Sorry, folks, but Ash doesn't fancy May. I don't see how the writers could have made it any clearer.

Swifty
30th December 2005, 9:49 PM
http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/7963/jirachi0066wd.png

^ Hawt.
...Can't... Breathe...

Jo-Jo
30th December 2005, 11:56 PM
One last point about the touching. In a certain other fandom *cough*, there was a certain other ship *coughcough* that certain other people claimed was canon because of all the physical contact the two characters - a boy and a girl - had over the course of the series. Here are some extracts to show what they were talking about:

---

"Well - I was lucky once, wasn't I?" said Harry, pointing at his scar. "I might get lucky again."

Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him.

"Hermione!"

"Harry - you're a great wizard, you know."

"I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him.

"Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be careful!"

---

"Crookshanks!" Hermione whispered uncertainly. She now grasped Harry's arm painfully hard. "How did he know -?"

...

Hermione suddenly grabbed Harry's arm again. Her wide eyes were travelling around the boarded windows.

...

Both of them looked up at the ceiling. Hermione's grip on Harry's arm was so tight he was losing feeling in his fingers.

---

Hermione put her hands on Buckbeak's back and Harry gave her a leg up. Then he placed his foot on one of the lower branches of the bush and climbed up in front of her. He pulled Buckbeak's rope back over his neck and tied it to the other side of his collar-like reins.

"Ready?" he whispered to Hermione. "You'd better hold on to me -"

He nudged Buckbeak's sides with his heels.

Buckbeak soared straight into the dark air. Harry gripped his flanks with his knees, feeling the great wings rising powerfully beneath them. Hermione was holding Harry very tightly around the waist; he could hear her muttering, "Oh, no - I don't like this - oh, I really don't like this -"

---

"Harry!"

Hermione was tugging at his sleeve, staring at her watch.

---

Uncle Vernon was waiting beyond the barrier. Mrs Weasley was close by him. She hugged Harry very tightly when she saw him, and whispered in his ear, "I think Dumbledore will let you come to us later in the summer. Keep in touch, Harry."

"See you, Harry," said Ron, clapping him on the back.

"Bye, Harry!" said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek.

---

... there was a loud twittering noise, followed by an even louder shriek, and his vision was completely obscured by a large quantity of very bushy hair. Hermione had thrown herself on him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat ...


(better spoiler-cut the rest...)

---

The circular wall was rotating.

Hermione grabbed Harry's arm as though frightened the floor might move too, but it did not.

---

"RUN!" Harry yelled, as the shelves swayed precariously and more glass spheres began to fall from above. He seized a handful of Hermione's robes and dragged her forwards ...

---

But the Death Eater Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand; a streak of what looked like purple flame passed right across Hermione's chest. She gave a tiny "Oh!" as though of surprise and crumpled on to the floor, where she lay motionless.

"HERMIONE!"

...

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead ...

---

You get the picture. And what does the author of the series have to say about Harry and Hermione's relationship? "They're very platonic friends." I know HP is a different series to Pokemon, but the parallel just begs to be made. ;)

Kagome Higurashi
1st January 2006, 3:06 AM
There's something I've been wanting to discuss:

Do people consider Misty appearing at Ash's house a hint?

I think so. It reminds me of when Inuyasha waits for Kagome.

CyberCubed
1st January 2006, 3:15 AM
There's something I've been wanting to discuss:

Do people consider Misty appearing at Ash's house a hint?

Archaic does, but I sure don't. It's one of the weakest hints I ever heard of.

cold_katanagirl
1st January 2006, 3:21 AM
Delia and Oak leaving Kanto and going all the way to the Johto League sounds better then waiting for a friend at their house.

About Inu/Ash and Kag/Misty, I fail to see the connection.

Misty-Fan-Forever
1st January 2006, 3:28 AM
I don't really think it is. I find it cute but not a hint. Inuyasha waiting for Kagome is different because his personality proves that act to be...not a common thing. Since he's more stubborn, rude etc. and Misty is more caring so it seems more normal for Misty to wait for Ash than it is for Inuyasha to wait for Kagome.

Also yes, the whole 'touching someone' =/= love. Harry and Hermione's relationship in a way is a similar to Ash and May, well on the physical contact side of it. And most of us know that H/Hr has been debunked by the author.

Now I'll just stop with the parallel ships thing.

intergalactic platypus
1st January 2006, 3:50 AM
There's something I've been wanting to discuss:

Do people consider Misty appearing at Ash's house a hint?

I think so. It reminds me of when Inuyasha waits for Kagome.
Its an indicator she still thinks about him, but all that proves is that they're still friends. Those eps didn't have any real hints for pokeshipping at all, but they certainly hinted towards orangeshipping ;)

Kagome Higurashi
3rd January 2006, 10:36 PM
About Inu/Ash and Kag/Misty, I fail to see the connection.Why? Inuyasha goes to wait at Kagome's house in the same manner as Misty did for Ash. It's practically the same thing, they're both in the same league.

cold_katanagirl
3rd January 2006, 10:47 PM
Why? Inuyasha goes to wait at Kagome's house in the same manner as Misty did for Ash.Not really. In order for Misty to be like Inuyasha, she would have to do a number of things. Heck, Misty never would have left Ash to begin with if she were like Inuyasha. But she isn't.

Inuyasha stalks Kagome. Misty doesn't stalk Ash. Big difference.
It's practically the same thing, they're both in the same league.They're no where in the same league.

If you took the small amount of shipping we get in Pokemon, the major plot would be unaffected. Take the shipping out of Inuyasha and the entire story is gone.

Mamoru
7th January 2006, 9:12 PM
Regarding the waiting at the house hint, let me copy what I said over at BMG about this last week for you guys.



But...but.. he just called it nonsense... didn't he? And on the debate threads he is going on about Azurill and such. I'm very confused.
Azurill is certainly a good excuse for her going down there, but it doesn't explain all her behavior.


Why did she stay at Ash's mother's house, and not at the Oak labs?
Why was she waiting at Ash's mother's house for days and days for Ash's arrival, especially given that they didn't know exactly how long Ash would take to return?
Why was she so concerned about getting to see Ash as soon as he arrived (IIRC, this was specifically referred to in dialogue)?
How can her (IIRC) somewhat wistfulLY delivered line of how Ash is the same as always be explained?
Why couldn't she have simply delayed her trip down there until Ash had already arrived?


You have to remember also the cultural dimension of this. You *might* occasionally get this kind of behaviour in the US, I'll grant you that....but amongst Japanese? When they're not childhood friends? This is not something that would usually happen. Just the fact that she was allowed to stay at Ash's house, even without him there, shows that she's unusually close to the family, for having only met them a couple of times that we're aware of.

Frankly, in a normal family in Japan, a girl staying over at a guy's house like that would be assumed to be his girlfriend.

CyberCubed
7th January 2006, 9:17 PM
Since when was Misty considered "unusually close" with Ash's family? Delia and Oak know Misty very well, just like they do Brock.

Remember how in the 1st season Misty and Brock stayed in Ash's house until the Indigo League began? Delia allowed Misty and Brock to sleep in her house until the 3 months for the league. I guess Brock must be in love with Ash too, since he slept in his mothers house along with Misty, and heck even did the dishes and cleaned the house for her!

Of COURSE Delia is going to allow Misty to come to her house, if she let her sleep there a few seasons before, why not to visit?

Shigeru-kun
7th January 2006, 9:33 PM
You have to remember also the cultural dimension of this. You *might* occasionally get this kind of behaviour in the US, I'll grant you that....but amongst Japanese? When they're not childhood friends? This is not something that would usually happen. Just the fact that she was allowed to stay at Ash's house, even without him there, shows that she's unusually close to the family, for having only met them a couple of times that we're aware of.

Frankly, in a normal family in Japan, a girl staying over at a guy's house like that would be assumed to be his girlfriend.
Had this been another anime, I think I would have gave you that one. The Japanese love to gossip as well, and seeing a young girl moving into the house of a boy who's coming back...you bet the rumors would fly.

Pokemon however, is not like most anime. When the show first started, it was rich in Japanese culture, but even then certain things were left out. Calling each other but purely their first names? Even families in Japan add honorables! And what about 4kids? As the years have gone by, simple things like onigiri and words have started to fad away from the original.

With 4Kids on their back, and the show even ignoring some Japanese "rules" from the beginning, I don't know if we should take culture into account here. At least not in large amounts.

cold_katanagirl
7th January 2006, 9:34 PM
Would anyone happen to know the dialogue to that episode? It'd be very much appreciated.

I guess going by the Japanese culture or whatever, it's iffy. But there wasn't really a shippy connotation to it.

Though if Misty still likes him, I don't see it. She failed to do anything with him, he failed to do anything with her. If someone says Ash's reaction is a hint too, I'm going to lose it. <_<

CyberCubed
7th January 2006, 9:38 PM
I do wonder why so many people claim that was a hint, yet when Misty actually sees Ash there's like no affection other than friendship between them.

Misty and Ash didn't have a single shippy moment in any of those episodes. You'd think if Misty was still interested in him, she'd start throwing her affection toward him again, as she hasn't seen him in months.

But instead Ash and Misty are rather nonchalant around each other, they act as any normal friends, and if you never watched the first 5 seasons, you'd never think Misty ever had a crush on Ash.

Hell, May herself doesn't even know that Misty had a crush on Ash. To May (and Max) Misty is just a good friend of Ash's. They certainly don't see anything between them because quite frankly there wasn't anything between them other than friendship.

intergalactic platypus
7th January 2006, 10:53 PM
I don't think she still likes him. Doesn't mean I don't like pokeshipping, but I think she laid her feelings for him to rest, and Ash is once again completely ignorant of girls. Its probably better if it doesn't become canon anyway; Ashes character is completely oblivious to girls and their *cough* "other charms"

Swifty
7th January 2006, 11:52 PM
Every Saturday is proclaim PokeShipping is dead day.


Misty and Ash didn't have a single shippy moment in any of those episodes. You'd think if Misty was still interested in him, she'd start throwing her affection toward him again, as she hasn't seen him in months.

But instead Ash and Misty are rather nonchalant around each other, they act as any normal friends, and if you never watched the first 5 seasons, you'd never think Misty ever had a crush on Ash.It doesn't really matter. Ash and Misty always acted like normal friends to each other throughout the first five years the show was on with the exception of the once in the blue moon hint. I wouldn't expect them to act any differently, especially since Misty's crush on Ash is consistently furtive and looming in the background. Misty's quite good at hiding her crush from Ash, provided there are no external forces threatening her dignity for liking him or threatening the possibilities of her being with him in the future.


Had this been another anime, I think I would have gave you that one. The Japanese love to gossip as well, and seeing a young girl moving into the house of a boy who's coming back...you bet the rumors would fly.

Pokemon however, is not like most anime. When the show first started, it was rich in Japanese culture, but even then certain things were left out. Calling each other but purely their first names? Even families in Japan add honorables! And what about 4kids? As the years have gone by, simple things like onigiri and words have started to fad away from the original.

With 4Kids on their back, and the show even ignoring some Japanese "rules" from the beginning, I don't know if we should take culture into account here. At least not in large amounts.Archaic's not talking about Japanese rules or simple customs. He's talking about social norms.

These aren't just simple rules and cultural nuances that people can disregard. This is behavior we're talking about. Behavior and social mores aren't as simple as things such as onigiri, cars driving on the left side of the road instead of right, and use of chopsticks. It's formulated by years and years of human development and education. Sure, the writer's could choose to make the show less Japaneesy by getting rid of certain nuances such as onigiri, chopsticks, honorifics, and cars driving on the left side of the road, but how do you make behavior less Japanese-like and more American-like or European-like or Martian-like? Behavior, ethics, and mores are learned from experience. That empirical knowledge was used to write the show and I can't see how that emprical knowledge would be any different from any other Japanese citizen. Behavior and character interaction seen in the show could not have been an influence of the producers' desires to reduce the cultural nuances seen in the show.


Since when was Misty considered "unusually close" with Ash's family? Delia and Oak know Misty very well, just like they do Brock.

Remember how in the 1st season Misty and Brock stayed in Ash's house until the Indigo League began? Delia allowed Misty and Brock to sleep in her house until the 3 months for the league. I guess Brock must be in love with Ash too, since he slept in his mothers house along with Misty, and heck even did the dishes and cleaned the house for her!

Of COURSE Delia is going to allow Misty to come to her house, if she let her sleep there a few seasons before, why not to visit?You didn't address the qualifiers that Archaic had mentioned:


Just the fact that she was allowed to stay at Ash's house, even without him there, shows that she's unusually close to the family, for having only met them a couple of times that we're aware of.

Mix that in with the fact that Archaic's central argument was based on the differences in Japanese social norms from American social norms, I have to say that you missed the point of Archaic's post.

intergalactic platypus
7th January 2006, 11:59 PM
Misty's quite good at hiding her crush from Ash.
Well in all fairness she didn't need to do much hiding. Ash knows zero to none about girls, and no matter how obvious it was he never was able to pick up that she liked him. Therefore she has no real reason to not demonstrate any shippy hints except for not liking him like that anymore

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 12:30 AM
You have to remember also the cultural dimension of this. You *might* occasionally get this kind of behaviour in the US, I'll grant you that....but amongst Japanese? When they're not childhood friends? This is not something that would usually happen.Do they really need to be childhood friends after everything they've gone through together? They seem to have a much deeper friendship than your typical childhood relationship, so why not stay at his house and wait for him?
Just the fact that she was allowed to stay at Ash's house, even without him there, shows that she's unusually close to the family, for having only met them a couple of times that we're aware of.Brock stayed at Ash's house for about a week before he came home from the Orange Islands.
Frankly, in a normal family in Japan, a girl staying over at a guy's house like that would be assumed to be his girlfriend.But there isn't really a reason to believe that's the reason why due to the lack of shippy connotation.

It'd be nice if I knew what the heck I was talking about. =0

Swifty
8th January 2006, 12:32 AM
Well in all fairness she didn't need to do much hiding. Ash knows zero to none about girls, and no matter how obvious it was he never was able to pick up that she liked him. Therefore she has no real reason to not demonstrate any shippy hints except for not liking him like that anymoreSo, according to your logic, since Ash is oblivious to Misty's advances and displays of liking him, Misty should be perfectly okay with doing that. Uh... Right... :\

And since Misty didn't do that, she clearly doesn't like him anymore. Uh... Double right... :\

So, did you fail to take into account that other people were around Ash and Misty throughout those episodes? Not to mention there could be a countless of other reasons why Misty didn't show evidence of liking Ash. People tend to think that Misty is this uncontrollable girl who gushes out hints all the god damn time. No, she isn't! My point in my previous post was that Misty hung out with Ash for three regions. On average, Misty has always acted as a good friend with Ash and nothing more. It's only when something extraordinary happens which forces her to briefly reveal her feelings to the audience. Her going all mushy and gushy over Ash would be out of character for her unless some external force came about and initiated Misty to go into defensive mode about Ash in that episode.

Maybe I worded that statement wrong. I take that back. Misty isn't good at hiding her crush on Ash. Instead I'd say that Misty is good at keeping her feelings from taking over the foreground constantly.

intergalactic platypus
8th January 2006, 12:36 AM
Thats very true since pokemon isn't a romance show. The rare shippy situations are side plots. I do think though that she isn't romantically into him anymore. I think when she said "I finally know how you feel about me Ash Ketchum" the writers were providing a bit of closure on the AAML side plot. Doesn't mean it never existed or that its not cute; I think both are true. To me it just means that I highly doubt its still in the show. I think most shipping in fact has vanished. I'm not here to fight pokeshipping though. I don't even know why I'm here except for to smash down advanceshipping

CyberCubed
8th January 2006, 12:48 AM
Every Saturday is proclaim PokeShipping is dead day.

Well to be fair it was Archaic who bumped this thread up.


I wouldn't expect them to act any differently, especially since Misty's crush on Ash is consistently furtive and looming in the background.

Not in AG it isn't. The ONLY thing I'd "kinda sorta" qualify about Misty still liking someone was her blushing in the Delcatty Hoso. From a Hoso that aired during very early AG, that's it. And even then, there is no confirmation that that was about Ash. So no, Misty's crush isn't looming in the backround by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not there anymore.


Misty's quite good at hiding her crush from Ash, provided there are no external forces threatening her dignity for liking him or threatening the possibilities of her being with him in the future.

But this is not the same as when she traveled with him. She used to see him everyday, now she only sees him once every 6-8 months or so. When she met him in Pallet Town that didn't look like "hiding a crush" to me, it looked like general friendship.

Misty is still and will always be Ash's friend, that certainly won't change. And that's all the writers have made apparent in AG.

Misty-chan
8th January 2006, 12:53 AM
So, did you fail to take into account that other people were around Ash and Misty throughout those episodes? Not to mention there could be a countless of other reasons why Misty didn't show evidence of liking Ash. People tend to think that Misty is this uncontrollable girl who gushes out hints all the god damn time. No, she isn't! My point in my previous post was that Misty hung out with Ash for three regions. On average, Misty has always acted as a good friend with Ash and nothing more. It's only when something extraordinary happens which forces her to briefly reveal her feelings to the audience. Her going all mushy and gushy over Ash would be out of character for her unless some external force came about and initiated Misty to go into defensive mode about Ash in that episode.


Heyyy!!! You said everthing ^^ ... I don´t know why the advancedshippers can´t see how many are the hints of pokeshipping... and I never see one 'hint' of advancedshipping. Somebody can tell me one? Is gonna be hard to find... but, I just wanna ear one!!!

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 12:55 AM
Heyyy!!! You said everthing ^^ ... I don&#180;t know why the advancedshippers can&#180;t see how many are the hints of pokeshipping...I don't recall anyone saying in this thread that Pokeshipping doesn't have any hints.

That sterotype phails.

CyberCubed
8th January 2006, 1:02 AM
Indeed, everyone here agrees that Pokeshipping had a gazillion hints from Kanto-Johto (Season 1 - 5).

I'm arguing that Pokeshipping was resolved in GCYL, when Misty was written off the show. I'm arguing that it's resolved, not that it never existed.

STJ
8th January 2006, 1:04 AM
Just out of curiosity, can you define "here"?

Do you mean the people that post in this thread? The whole forum? Something else?

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 1:05 AM
Are you talking about me? I meant in the thread.

STJ
8th January 2006, 1:06 AM
Actually I was referring to CyberCubed

I should have used the quote tag, oh well, But thanks anyway :D, I knew you were referring to the thread since you said so..


I don't recall anyone saying in this thread that Pokeshipping doesn't have any hints.

CyberCubed
8th January 2006, 1:10 AM
I meant most people arguing against Pokeshipping in this thread. I didn't want to say "Advanceshippers", since we also have Orangeshippers (buttersgirl) and GymShippers (you :p ) arguing against Misty still liking Ash in AG as well.

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 1:15 AM
I should have used the quote tag, oh well, But thanks anyway :D, I knew you were referring to the thread since you said so..Oh. I forgot I said that. o_o

I thought buttersgirl (sorry, I'll never be able to spell your new name) was arguing against Pokeshipping, not for it...

CyberCubed
8th January 2006, 1:16 AM
buttersgirl is an Orangeshipper, but she still likes Pokeshipping.

intergalactic platypus
8th January 2006, 1:24 AM
Heyyy!!! You said everthing ^^ ... I don&#180;t know why the advancedshippers can&#180;t see how many are the hints of pokeshipping... and I never see one 'hint' of advancedshipping. Somebody can tell me one? Is gonna be hard to find... but, I just wanna ear one!!!
Most of us on thsi thread aren't denying pokeshipping had hints. I'm an orangeshipper, so although I think pokeshippings cute but strongly dislike advanceshipping I'm arguing against both because since I don't support either side really I can offer a less biased perspective than the other people on the thread. I like debating both sides. I think your just being paranoid that we all think pokeshipping has no basis. It has plenty of hints; shipping in general was just laid to rest in AG for the most part

Swifty
8th January 2006, 1:29 AM
The ONLY thing I'd "kinda sorta" qualify about Misty still liking someone was her blushing in the Delcatty Hoso. From a Hoso that aired during very early AG, that's it. And even then, there is no confirmation that that was about Ash.Well, you claimed that after Gotta Catch You Later aired, that's when PokeShipping was killed. The fact that Misty's crush still exists after Johto means that the writers didn't have intentions to kill PokeShipping with Gotta Catch You Later. So, what the hell are they doing? Are they just being the stupid writers they are? Are they neurotic? If they didn't intend for the "someone else" in A Date For Delcatty to not be Ash, then who was she talking about? Tracey? Sure, go ahead and say Tracey. C'mon, I dare ya. ;)

intergalactic platypus
8th January 2006, 1:38 AM
I won't say Tracey, cause as much as I like orangeshipping I will A.) not start a flamewar with pokeshippers who mostly passionatley hate it and B.) claim the ship is canon when theres no canon ships in pokemon, and this one probably will remain fanon. And in A Date With Delecatty, honestly she could have meant Ash but thats not hint enough for me to override GCYL. The one line "I finally know how you feel about me Ash Ketchum" really sealed it for me. However, I can't fight that at that moment the writers implied Misty liked someone

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 1:46 AM
... I'm slightly surprised there hasn't been a debate thread titled "Handymanshipping/Pokeshipping vs Orangeshipping/Advanceshipping" thread. That's be one heck of a battle...
Tracey? Sure, go ahead and say Tracey. C'mon, I dare ya. ;)Wondered when Orangeshipping would be brought in here. Let's hear why then.

intergalactic platypus
8th January 2006, 1:48 AM
... I'm slightly surprised there hasn't been a debate thread titled "Handymanshipping/Pokeshipping vs Orangeshipping/Advanceshipping" thread. That's be one heck of a battle...Wondered when Orangeshipping would be brought in here. Let's hear why then.
I would kill someone. I detest advanceshipping but love orangeshipping, so I wouldn't be able to defend my favorite ship

CyberCubed
8th January 2006, 3:21 AM
Well, you claimed that after Gotta Catch You Later aired, that's when PokeShipping was killed. The fact that Misty's crush still exists after Johto means that the writers didn't have intentions to kill PokeShipping with Gotta Catch You Later.

I'm saying that GCYL resolved Pokeshipping. From the "Pokeshippers" perspective, I can see why they're clinging to the hope that Misty was blushing over Ash in that Hoso. Seeing as how Pokeshipping is non-existant otherwise, its pretty much all they have to go on since AG started.

I see why other people want to cling to that one scene, but I myself don't believe it was about Ash. It's clearly open to interpetaton, as neither side can prove anything really on that, but in my mind that's not a hint for Pokeshipping.


So, what the hell are they doing? Are they just being the stupid writers they are? Are they neurotic? If they didn't intend for the "someone else" in A Date For Delcatty to not be Ash, then who was she talking about? Tracey? Sure, go ahead and say Tracey. C'mon, I dare ya. ;)

Alright, it's about Sakura. ~

Misty-Fan-Forever
8th January 2006, 4:00 AM
A/0 vs. P/H? Oh boy that's just asking for a flame war. Though the argument may stay the same as this thread.

May I ask what the origional line was for GCYL when Misty said "I finally know how you feel about me". I remember hearing it somewhere but i can't remember what it was.

Anyway, the fact that Misty has a crush on someone has been proved but who it is has not been. If it is infact Ash (I'm skipping the whole could be Tracey argument as this is not a vs. Orandshipping thread) then Pokeshipping was not infact killed off. And due to the fact that romance is a sub plot (and not a very important one) there wouldn't be love triangles to complicate things and become a major plot.

If we had some confirmation on who it was then that would settle a few things but I just have a weird feeling it's not Tracey. The interaction and the way Misty reacted just made me think that it wasn't Tracey. But by that I'm not saying it automatically means it's Ash but who else could she be thinking of? No one can prove who it was as it was defiantly too vague to decipher =/

intergalactic platypus
8th January 2006, 4:04 AM
It could have been put in there and then forgotten about ya know. We don't watch pokemon for excellent storytelling after all, and the writers could have easily inserted a line that later meant nothing. I kind of wish we could get off of pokeshipping though. I don't enjoy destroying pokeshipping nearly as much as I enjoy shooting down advanceshipping hints, and this pokeshipping is dead thing has been done to death in the past

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 4:14 AM
May I ask what the origional line was for GCYL when Misty said "I finally know how you feel about me". I remember hearing it somewhere but i can't remember what it was.CKG was a moron and deleted the PM that had the original line and now she can't remember.

It's something like "It's OK Ash, I know how you feel" or some crap. It's not all that different from the dub.

Poké_Master
8th January 2006, 5:12 AM
[chanting] Ad-vance-shipp-ing! Ad-vance-shipp-ing!

Mamoru
8th January 2006, 7:05 AM
Very long reply follows. Damn, you guys posted quite a bit for me only having been gone a few hours.

Pre-posting edit: Hmmm....I notice Swifty covered most of the basics, and did it in a much more concise form that I did. ^^;; A good start for the new SPPf Branch Director of the Official PokéShippers.


Since when was Misty considered "unusually close" with Ash's family? Delia and Oak know Misty very well, just like they do Brock.

Since we see evidence that this must be the case, in the fact that she was allowed to say over at the house even though Ash was not there.


Remember how in the 1st season Misty and Brock stayed in Ash's house until the Indigo League began? Delia allowed Misty and Brock to sleep in her house until the 3 months for the league. I guess Brock must be in love with Ash too, since he slept in his mothers house along with Misty, and heck even did the dishes and cleaned the house for her!

You've gone off on a tangent here. There's a big difference between that situation and the one here, the fact that Ash was not there.


Of COURSE Delia is going to allow Misty to come to her house, if she let her sleep there a few seasons before, why not to visit?

Again, Ash was not there this time, and that changes things significantly. Please try to understand the cultural differences between Japan and your country when you're thinking about these hints.



Had this been another anime, I think I would have gave you that one. The Japanese love to gossip as well, and seeing a young girl moving into the house of a boy who's coming back...you bet the rumors would fly.

Pokemon however, is not like most anime. When the show first started, it was rich in Japanese culture, but even then certain things were left out. Calling each other but purely their first names? Even families in Japan add honorables! And what about 4kids? As the years have gone by, simple things like onigiri and words have started to fad away from the original.

With 4Kids on their back, and the show even ignoring some Japanese "rules" from the beginning, I don't know if we should take culture into account here. At least not in large amounts.

Not using honourifics can be easily explained away. They've become very close friends. You'll find that honourifics are *always* used when they're talking to people outside of the main characters, or to people in positions of importance (Professors, officers, etc).

I fail to see onigiri and other items of obvioius Japanese culture showing up less than they have before either. There have been airbrushings and other techniques of avoiding them in the dubs, certainly, but that's not the case in the originals, from what I've seen.



Would anyone happen to know the dialogue to that episode? It'd be very much appreciated.

I guess going by the Japanese culture or whatever, it's iffy. But there wasn't really a shippy connotation to it.

Though if Misty still likes him, I don't see it. She failed to do anything with him, he failed to do anything with her. If someone says Ash's reaction is a hint too, I'm going to lose it. <_<

There wasn't a shippy connotation to it in the dub. From the cultural perspective, in Japan, there were certainly shipping implications.

As for her reaction, I believe I detailed part of that in my original post, with her wistful expression and remark about how he hadn't changed. As for her throwing herself at him...of course she didn't, when have we had anything like that happen in a main character shipping in this show? It's not something we should be expecting, or requiring as a qualification for a hint.



I do wonder why so many people claim that was a hint, yet when Misty actually sees Ash there's like no affection other than friendship between them.

Misty and Ash didn't have a single shippy moment in any of those episodes. You'd think if Misty was still interested in him, she'd start throwing her affection toward him again, as she hasn't seen him in months.


Why would she suddenly start throwing herself at him? She's never done that at all before, why should we suddenly start expecting that now? Especially when she's just gone and remarked that he hasn't changed, she knows that it's not the right time to be going and doing anything like that, geez.


But instead Ash and Misty are rather nonchalant around each other, they act as any normal friends, and if you never watched the first 5 seasons, you'd never think Misty ever had a crush on Ash.

And again, you're missing the cultural aspects of the hint. A Japanese fan who'd only seen Advance Gen, and no HoSo's, who saw this episode, would be wondering why the hell this woman is allowed to stay at his house, especially since she doesn't seem to be a childhood friend or a family member. Being able to do something like that with someone of the opposite sex is highly suggestive to the Japanese.



Hell, May herself doesn't even know that Misty had a crush on Ash. To May (and Max) Misty is just a good friend of Ash's. They certainly don't see anything between them because quite frankly there wasn't anything between them other than friendship.

How would she know? Ash isn't going to tell her (doesn't realise), Misty won't tell her (too embarassing), Brock won't tell her (knows it's not his place), Tracy won't tell her (doesn't know her)...just how the hell is she going to figure it out on her own with only having met them together a couple of times at best?



I don't think she still likes him. Doesn't mean I don't like pokeshipping, but I think she laid her feelings for him to rest, and Ash is once again completely ignorant of girls. Its probably better if it doesn't become canon anyway; Ashes character is completely oblivious to girls and their *cough* "other charms"

I'll have to disagree with you on the first part, since there's obvious evidence in the HoSo's that she still likes him (speaking of which, the existance of that evidence in the HoSo's would support any interpretation of suggestive events as further evidence of her continuing feelings), but the second, that Ash is still focused on Pokémon to the exclusion of everything else, I think we can agree on.



Not in AG it isn't. The ONLY thing I'd "kinda sorta" qualify about Misty still liking someone was her blushing in the Delcatty Hoso. From a Hoso that aired during very early AG, that's it. And even then, there is no confirmation that that was about Ash. So no, Misty's crush isn't looming in the backround by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not there anymore.

Misty's feelings for Ash are part of the established backstory. They don't need to "loom in the background" to still exist, especially when she's not in every single damn episode, and especially when her crush was never a huge part of every single episode in the first place.

Now, a few people post the same sort of arguement regarding the HoSo later, so I'll bold this, because it's important.
Unless we suddenly got another character introduced as her crush, then it is an entirely reasonable assumption that any references to someone she likes are references to her liking Ash. In this case, we don't have to prove it's Ash, since we've got all that prior setup of her feelings. You need to prove it's not Ash, and you aren't doing that.
It's called the Burden of Proof fallacy guys. Look it up, because you're committing it.

Here's a question for you. There were almost no hints whatsoever through Johto, until the end. Would you have said during Johto that her feelings must have vanished, due to the lack of hints? Or would you have accepted that her feelings had been established, and would still be there, even though they hadn't been given screentime?


But this is not the same as when she traveled with him. She used to see him everyday, now she only sees him once every 6-8 months or so. When she met him in Pallet Town that didn't look like "hiding a crush" to me, it looked like general friendship.

Did she *ever* look like she was "hiding a crush" to you throughout Johto? The crush was there, and that's a firmly established fact, but you didn't see it, did you? So why the hell should we suddenly see it now?



Misty is still and will always be Ash's friend, that certainly won't change. And that's all the writers have made apparent in AG.

Irrelevant. Established backstory is still established backstory, no matter how long it stays away from the screen. Just because they don't talk about Oak in every episode doesn't mean he's no longer a professor, just because they don't talk about Haruka's father every episode doesn't mean he's not a Gym Leader, just because Misty and her feelings aren't featured in every episode doesn't mean that she and those feelings do not exist.

Shigeru-kun
8th January 2006, 7:22 AM
Not using honourifics can be easily explained away. They've become very close friends. You'll find that honourifics are *always* used when they're talking to people outside of the main characters, or to people in positions of importance (Professors, officers, etc).
Maybe I'm wrong, but shouldn't something still be used? Even when people are incredibly close friends I still hear them using honorifics. I always thought you had to be pretty dang close to be just saying their first name.


I fail to see onigiri and other items of obvioius Japanese culture showing up less than they have before either. There have been airbrushings and other techniques of avoiding them in the dubs, certainly, but that's not the case in the originals, from what I've seen.
I never said Japanese culture was completely removed, I just said it's not as often seen. Take Kanto for example. From jokes, food, signs, festivals, etc. Japan was all over the place in those days. Now though? Hardly. Jokes and the like are still present, but the amount of them has become less over time.

That's why I said not to take the cultural thing in such large amounts. However, because Swifty did bring up a different point, I'll leave it at that.

cold_katanagirl
8th January 2006, 7:45 AM
There wasn't a shippy connotation to it in the dub. From the cultural perspective, in Japan, there were certainly shipping implications.Sorry, I don't really know about Japanese culture and whatnot.

Brock did the same thing when he was at Delia's house too while Ash, Misty, and Tracey were coming back to Kanto (though the situations were admittedly completely different).
As for her reaction, I believe I detailed part of that in my original post, with her wistful expression and remark about how he hadn't changed.Saying he hasn't changed is a cultural thing too? I see Misty smiling in the pictures, I don't see her with a wistful expression. =/
As for her throwing herself at him...of course she didn't, when have we had anything like that happen in a main character shipping in this show? It's not something we should be expecting, or requiring as a qualification for a hint.Of course she doesn't have to throw herself at him. That's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for the two to be placed in a slightly shippy position in the times Misty comes back, and so far we've received extremely little. Besides Misty staying at Ash's house, what else is there?
Why would she suddenly start throwing herself at him? She's never done that at all before, why should we suddenly start expecting that now? Especially when she's just gone and remarked that he hasn't changed, she knows that it's not the right time to be going and doing anything like that, geez.See above. She doesn't have to throw herself at him, but they need to be in some type of shippy situation.
How would she know? Ash isn't going to tell her (doesn't realise), Misty won't tell her (too embarassing), Brock won't tell her (knows it's not his place), Tracy won't tell her (doesn't know her)...just how the hell is she going to figure it out on her own with only having met them together a couple of times at best?Since when did anyone need to be told about those two? If every other character can figure it out, I don't see why May shouldn't be able too. And knowing her, she would make a huge deal out of it, whether she likes Ash or not.
Misty's feelings for Ash are part of the established backstory. They don't need to "loom in the background" to still exist, especially when she's not in every single damn episode, and especially when her crush was never a huge part of every single episode in the first place.Reminds me of Drew.
Unless we suddenly got another character introduced as her crush, then it is an entirely reasonable assumption that any references to someone she likes are references to her liking Ash. In this case, we don't have to prove it's Ash, since we've got all that prior setup of her feelings. You need to prove it's not Ash, and you aren't doing that.Some think that's what Tracey is for, but he's technically irrelevant to this particular debate.
Here's a question for you. There were almost no hints whatsoever through Johto, until the end. Would you have said during Johto that her feelings must have vanished, due to the lack of hints? Or would you have accepted that her feelings had been established, and would still be there, even though they hadn't been given screentime?Completely different. Misty was traveling with Ash then, and didn't receive a proper closure. Misty's not traveling with Ash these days, and GCYL seemed like a fitting end to me.

About Johto having a lack of hints, don't forget The Heartbreak of Brock.
Did she *ever* look like she was "hiding a crush" to you throughout Johto? The crush was there, and that's a firmly established fact, but you didn't see it, did you? So why the hell should we suddenly see it now?We saw this by her getting jealous and there was that blush in THoB. Although Johto sort of died shipping wise (did anything stay alive in Johto?), we still received a decent hint that Misty's crush on Ash still lingered. Not to mention the ship didn't have a decent closure.

Jo-Jo
8th January 2006, 8:41 AM
Johto contained quite a few moments that showed Misty still liked Ash, if I recall. The Heartbreak of Brock, the episode(s?) where she gets jealous of Macey, and Gotta Catch Ya Later.

Swifty
8th January 2006, 8:45 AM
He was not asserting that Johto had no hints. I think the main point he was sending across was that the hint to episode ratio in Johto was very low compared to that of Kanto and the Orange Islands.

intergalactic platypus
8th January 2006, 4:11 PM
But if the "I finally know how you feel about me Ash Ketchum" and leaving for good wasn't closure, then what do you propose it was? Doesn't it seem logical to you that she says something like that then leaves the group for good and pokeshipping dries up? I think it was the perfect way to end it. If they were going to hook up, Ash would have told her he liked her or something in GCYL. Pokeshipping had its reign, but the writers ended it when she left the show IMO. In fact, I think the writers have killed shipping hints except for May/Drew, but thats different

CyberCubed
8th January 2006, 5:26 PM
He was not asserting that Johto had no hints. I think the main point he was sending across was that the hint to episode ratio in Johto was very low compared to that of Kanto and the Orange Islands.

And there is a very good reason for this. There was a lack of Pokeshipping hints in Johto because the writers knew they were writing Misty out of the show.

Why do people think that AG and May were last minute changes? The decision to get rid of Misty and replace her with May and Max was probably decided two seasons in advance. It was probably in mid-Johto when the writers realized they needed a change, and once the character art for the female playable character from Ruby/Sapphire was revealed, the writers said "Oh hey this girl is cute, why not bring her into the main cast and have another main character...oh and she can do those new contest thingies in the new games!"

Misty being removed from the show wasn't done for the hell of it, it was probably decided by the writers a year or two in advance. Johto had a lack of hints because of this, because they knew there was no point drowning the show with hints anymore if one of the said characters wouldn't be in it much longer.

The reason Misty shows no affection to Ash in AG is because she's not even part of the show anymore. Her entire story arc with Ash has been resolved. The "new" Misty in AG is all about her life at the Cerulean Gym. She's a real Gym leader now and unlike the first series, now she realizes that its far more important than traveling around with Ash. Daisy even tells Misty in a Hoso that she doesn't have to stay at the Gym anymore and that she can travel with Ash again if she wants. And what does Misty do? She eventually declines, because she'd rather stay at the Gym.

Misty isn't part of the show anymore, she isn't important anymore, thus she isn't a factor anymore. We're 4 years into AG, the writers aren't going to go back 8 seasons in the past when Pokeshipping was in its prime when she's not even part of the show anymore.

Every part of the "old" Misty was resolved. AG was a revival of her character, Cerulean Gym Leader Misty, not "tag along with Ash and crush on him for 5 seasons before being ditched by the writers" Misty.