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mindripper
8th November 2005, 8:35 PM
I have seen several threads around here using religious symbolism, which I think is smashing, except for the fact that some people are absolutely slaughtering the notions which they are borrowing from. I saw that Scrap's "Sin" was derailed for a while due to some arguments, among which Yin-Yang was discussed. Unfortunately, the person who started the discussion, Ouallada if I am not mistaken, was spot-on with his (I assume) arguments about Yin-Yang.

That is beside the point. The point is whether or not a person should use religion at all in a fiction, especially if said writer knows little about the topic. For example, *******ising the notion of jihad would draw reactions from Muslims worldwide. Just remember the backlash the american media gave the war on Iraq when it was labelled a crusade. There is a reason why religion is banned in many forums, including this one, I believe, and that is the fact that statutary laws DO apply even online (lawyer friends do help), and it is possible to sue for religious slanging. I beseech anyone who wants to use any symbolism to at least do some research and make the effort to get it correct. Posting in this thread works as well, as I do know a fair bit myself.

On a lighter note, is it really needed to associate some religious or mythological symbol with legendaries 99% of the time? Is it really needed to include Yin-Yang in almost every prologue? Is it not better to create your own mythos, rather than borrow from an already existing notion, and then do it an injustice in the process?

I will post a FAQ right here, just to sort out a few things which I feel that people always get wrong, because it is pertinent to get religious issues right. People around here right now may not kick up a fuss, but there are many out there who do, especially when the entire world is on a knife's edge over the recent bombings, and terror threats. Getting your facts right will never hurt, and will even aid your credibility, as well as improve your general knowledge.

FAQ (More will be added when I have the time. Very busy now):

1) What is Yin-Yang?
Ans: Yin-Yang originates from chinese philosophy and metaphysics, and is basically about the two opposing yet complementary forces found in EVERYTHING. It is based on the notion that everything has degree, and context, and thus has an opposite degree and context, much like Newton's third law. Yang is the positive and active element, while Yin is the negative and passive element. There are no notions of good nor evil. Yin-Yang is also used in Confucianism, Taoism and TCM. TCM extrapolates to Tai-chi and the like, and is the base on which many internal arts originate. These martial arts are based on the fluxes of positive and negative energy, and strikes either to Yin or Yang areas of the body complement or dissipate such energies. On a personal note, my martial arts teacher taught me pretty well in this area, and so I guarantee you it works!

2) What do angels look like?
Ans: It really depends on their place within the angelic hierarchy, with there being nine classes. If they descend from heaven on a mission, they usually take a non-celestial form, generally a humaniod one, albeit with several discerning features, like flaming eyes in some instances, limbs of polished brass, faces of lightning, fiery swords etc. Angels in normal form typically have more than two wings, depending on their classification, and more than a single face too. Depictions you see in paintings are often taken from Nike, the Greek goddess of victory.

3) Is Ninetails considered to be a kitsune?
Ans: Very hard to say. Ninetails has nine tails, as older kitsune would possess. However, besides the physical similarities and the fiery abilities, there is absolutely nothing to correlate the two. The latter can morph, possess and even use hypnosis, while Ninetails can do none of that. It is possible that the appearance was mimicked, as Ninetails does have an image of innate power.

4) What is Rayquaza based on?
Ans: Nothing definite. Can be anything from british dragons to chinese dragons to Norse wyverns. I would say that Rayquaza is too generic to jump to any conclusions.

5) Can legendaries be attached to mythological or religious entities of similar ability?
Ans: At times, yes, but mostly it is a no-no. The problem is that pokemon legendaries do have commonplace superpowers, like control over the elements. You would not say Storm of the X-men was based on mythology, right? Most mythologies/religions have equivalents, and it is a huge chore to list all of them. For example, assuming that Groudon is based on Behemoth is plausible, but it is difficult to say if it is intentionally so.

6) What if I want to use Satan or Lucifer in a fiction?
Ans: If for some weird reason that is a writer's intention, then know first and foremost that the two are most probably different entities. The religious world is divided on this-- half do not know about the logical error in the bible that leads to this, most religious scholars believe that Satan and Lucifer are indeed seperate entities, and a minority believe that they are one and the same. Do avoid using those two, though.

7) I played games like Devil May Cry. Demons in those games like Mundus are really cool. What is he about?
Ans: Mundus means "universe", and his role is actually to be all encompassing. Do remember that Dante and co. were actually based on Dante Aligheri's TDC.

8) I want to use a referance to Tolkien's mythos, but I do not know enough. What then?
Ans: Well, Tolkien's work is actually the base on which most fantasy stories are based, and so most fantasy writers already borrow from Tolkien. I know a fair bit, and anyone can ask.

9) What exactly is a demon. I need to write a horror story.
Ans: The word demon is commonly taken to originate from "deivos", which means celestial or angelic. As most already know, demons in Christian religion and mythology are actually fallen angels, and hence the derivation. There are classes of demons, ranks, different days and powers associated with some of them as well. The big hitters accross mythologies are Satan, Lilith, Sammael, Azazel, Leviathan, Belial, the Shedu, Ghul, Iblis and Afrael. Just for knowledge's sake. Please ask for anything. Too complex to even skim the surface.

10) What exactly is a sigil?
Ans: A sigil in christian religion is taken to be the unholy symbol, while elsewhere it is commonly taken to be a magical symbol, with enemy elements opposite, with friendly elements next to each other. The difference between the two is that the star is inverted in the religious symbol, as in the two-pointed side of the star is at the top of the circle.

That is just the first ten questions. I will post more when I have time,covering Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Babylonian and Jewish mythologies, among others. Please excuse the talk about demons and all, as it is an integral part of religion, as they are the trials that make man stronger, and are needed to paint a complete picture. More people use those than deities in any case. Please post with any questions. I will try to answer them. Any field is fine with me.

Dragonfree
8th November 2005, 9:09 PM
I like to use religious ideas, but I wouldn't call most of them symbols - when I have the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer in The Quest for the Legends, the three Pokémon in question are not actually supposed to symbolize Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. The exception, of course, is in Chains and Shackles where the whole point of the story is to compare something in the Pokémon world to the Bible, and I believe I'm at least fairly accurate there.

Ledian_X
8th November 2005, 9:24 PM
Like Dragonfree, I like to use religion in my stories too. My aliens are polythestic believing in many Gods and Goddesses. One of my characters is named after the Goddess of the ocean and the ocean plays a big role in the species make up as they can live on land and in water. They believe in many Gods but they are also very technologically advanced. Their religion defines their belief system.

But, they aren't close minded and dislike technology. They believe in their Gods and various cermonies such as weddings are rooted in the stories of the Gods. So, they play an intrinstic part of the aliens.

My pantheon aren't symbols. I've been thinking of making them real a la Marvel Comics' Thor. As for real world religions, It's probably best to have them too as they convey realism. There are people that are religius/non religious in the world, so why not make it realistic. Just put research into it. It can help give a character depth and make he or she realistic.

To avoid confusion, you could always do what I did. Create your own religion with detites, texts and all that. In fact, I should probably do a part where the alien religion comes in conflict with Earth religions. It's already drastically different but there is some similarities to Greco-Roman myth.


LX

Ryano Ra
8th November 2005, 9:26 PM
Ah, I remember that argument in Scrap's thread about Yin and Yang.

I create my own mythologies. I don't use ones that are already out there because I find those to be rather too historical or too noble to be tampered with in the wrong way. The only type of mythology/religion I use within my upcoming fantasy fanfiction is Heaven and Hell, though I recognized them as Havigma and Hatill (new terms for the story), and that Heaven is good and Hell is bad. However, I crafted that Havigma and Hatill work together to create life, such as how the beautiful morning eventually dies away into the black night. Work of Heaven and Hell, Havigma and Hatill. I only took the basic fact that Heaven is for the good, the natural, and the cured, and Hell is for the supernatural, the tainted, the bad. After that, I used my own creations and so on and so forth. I like to use religious ideas, though I heavily use research to accompany it, just to make sure I use it correctly. Otherwise, I'll take the base of the ideas and create the rest from my imagination.

Dilasc
8th November 2005, 9:27 PM
Religions are vast and wide in Dust to Deceit. Heck, the Orbital Occult worships the stars, the planets and the moons. They even worship comets every so often.

As for demons, Dust to Deceit has five legendary Oni demons. For those who don't know, Oni is a demon in Japanese mythology that have mask-like faces. They are not symbolic of anything except that they are really bad, both in the sense of the term cool, and just plain EVIL!

Personally, I'm not into the religion fiasco, but the fact remains that the stuff exists.

mindripper
8th November 2005, 9:29 PM
Correct. That is precisely my point. It is GOOD to use religion, but if a person is not going to research and get facts down well, then a story is better off without religious connotations.

Also, as a reader, I do find religion more of a plot device for dramatism of fictions at times, which I feel is pretty sad. Religion can be used in so many more ways beside this.

I am pretty sure there are many who use religion, unknowingly or otherwise, and it is imperative that if direct references are drawn, said references are at least accurate. People who draw parallels do not need accuracy, ut a direct usage of religion or mythology should at elast be precise.


As for demons, Dust to Deceit has five legendary Oni demons. For those who don't know, Oni is a demon in Japanese mythology that have mask-like
faces. They are not symbolic of anything except that they are really bad, both in the sense of the term cool, and just plain EVIL!

Actually, Japanese demons or spirits are generalised as Yokai, and then split into categories. Oni are at the evil end, while the kitsune are not necessarily evil, and mostly merely mischevious.

pokeplayer984
8th November 2005, 10:45 PM
I use the teachings of my religion in my fanfics. The thing is, I hide them in a special way and so that no one can guess that it is of religion. Let me show you one account from Misty's Miracle to help you understand:

“Oh, there you are.” A female voice said near them. They turned to see May walking up to them.

(“May! I... I...”)

“You don’t have to say anything, Beautifly. I know.”

“We know.” Someone said behind May, correcting her.

They looked behind May to see Jessie walk up to them. She then stopped right in front of the insect pokemon.

“We know you love eachother.” Jessie said.

“We understand how you feel about eachother, but me and Jessie could never be together. Besides, something like that is just wrong in the end.” May said.

“Yea, it’s very wrong.”
----------------

Now, if you look at this part VERY CAREFULLY you'll notice a little account on same sex marriage and adultry in one. As you can see, it looks like someone's opinion in the story, when in reality, it's actually part of my religious teaching. In my religion, same sex marriage and adultry are both VERY serious sins. I didn't want to explain why because of the fact that I already had 20 pages for that chapter and I didn't want to make it too long.

My religion says that, and I quote, "We believe that the marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and is the only rightous one."

"We believe that same sex marriage offers no true happiness. It deprives the ultimate plan of the lord thy God. It offers no chance of children from the parents and thus doesn't give the gift of a family."

"A man should cleve unto his spouse and no one else. And the woman should do the same and seek no other man."

As you can see, there's alot to be said here from just those few lines. I hide my religous teachings like that to avoid arguments. By hiding it, I just don't have to suffer. :)

Sike Saner
8th November 2005, 11:32 PM
*shudders* I will be perfectly honest with you - I would NEVER intentionally reference real religion in my stories. Never, never, never. I have not truly, deeply studied any form of religion. I prefer to write only what I either know or invent. And I am most definitely not interested in potentially offending people, especially on such a deep and dear level. I just don't want any trouble...*shudders again* Hence, any reference I make to any of my characters being religious will always refer to a fictional religion. Always. Any resemblance to any real religion is entirely unintentional. As I stated, I have never studied religion.

Bu†cH
9th November 2005, 4:25 AM
I"ll be making a fanfic this winter which a couple of the characters are in a religion I kinda made up, like the Force in Star Wars.

May the Force be with you.

xXSaberXx
9th November 2005, 4:37 AM
D: LOLOL.

Well, I admit to using religion. There are these things in PRCOF called Chaos and Nature. Opposites on the scales. Chaos and Order is what I derived them both from, Chaos being the random, destructive force that lies in Humans and everything in the world. However, there is also Order, or Nature, that resides in everything. Everything has two opposite forces, encompassed by an 'It'.

The It could be taken as God or Budda or Odin, perhaps all of them in one. It is the force that created the 'universe', and set Chaos and Nature upon each other to make better what it had created.

If Chaos and Nature were playing a football game, 'It' would be the stadium.

To put it in light terms, THAT ^ sums up the extension of my religious imputs in PRCOF.

I do refrain from using any Exsisting Religion though, just for the sake of less bickering and debating. But I feel it is the author's right to perhaps make religions. D: It's fun, and you can base whole speices or races or clans on the religions. ^^;;

Kal-El
9th November 2005, 5:34 AM
I'm all for using religion in fics. I'm writing one about Satan's release at the end of the Millenial Kingdom.

Of course, when I posted it on PC I put a warning there as to not offend.

Kiyohime
9th November 2005, 6:03 AM
I use Yin-Yang associated with Lugia and Ho-Oh. I did quite a bit of research in the subject of it, so I'm hoping I didn't totally screw up.

As mindripper says, Yin is passive and associated with feminity, immateriality, the moon, etc. Yang is dominant, masculine, sun. I don't use it to symbolize evil and good, since Sin in my story is not evil. It's just a mindless hunger.

Yin-Yang was intended to represent opposing forces that need each other to survive, like light and darkness.

I also use characters named Shiva, and soon-to-appear Vishnu and Brahma to represent Creation, Destruction, and Preserving.

My city is named Eden, but it isn't intended to be an attack of any sort on religion-- it's intended as a metaphor for a perfect paradise. I sort of went on a limb and created a mythos in Sin that revolves around people worshipping Ho-oh as the Sun God and Lugia as the Moon Goddess.

All in all, I thought I was doing a decent job of maintaining a correct approach, but some people's opinions may differ. ^^;

Chibi Pika
9th November 2005, 12:11 PM
In later parts of my fic, I put a couple little...referrences to religion...a major example being that the Pokegods are mentioned to be angels personified in mortal form and born randomly to normal Pokemon parents when there is need of their presense. (and likewise, the "dark" Pokegods are demons, but their fall was not at the beginning of time, but rather based upon their role in an ancient war.)

The Legendaries are referred to as guardians that originated each with a certain aspect of the seven days of creation (ie: firmament of the waters = separation of sea and sky = Lugia and Ho-oh.)

Yes, I admitted it, certain backstories and aspects of LC are rooted in Christianity. *hides.*

~Chibi~;249;<?>;rukario;

≈*Virulent Tsunami*≈
9th November 2005, 12:52 PM
OMFG, I was just thinking of this XD

Anyway, in my Fic, I do plan to make one of the characters strongly devout, though I haven't decided on who it will be yet(though I rather doubt it will be Flannery, it just doesn't seem to fit with her. Plus, I've already wrote enough about her for readers to get the general image of her, so even if I wanted to make her a Christian, it's too late). Then, Regice(or Registeel, because anyone who reads my Fic knows that would be a laugh and a half XP), being the inquisitive, knowledge-hungry Golem it is, will question the beliefs of said individual, and a big long debate will sprout from that over religion.

I would do another religion, since Christianity is the main religion used, but I don't know anything about the other religions, and I'd offend any Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/whatever readers if I had a go at writing about their religion(no, I'm not joking, I'd probably write something stupid that you don't do with that religion, and offend someone unintentionally). Given the chance, though, I'd like to do a different religion, because Christianity is, like, the default religion, and overused in terms of......usage(lol). Rather like Charizard is in my Fic. I'd rather not use it, but what other choice do I have? Ho-Oh?


~*CB*~
The 8th Champion

mindripper
9th November 2005, 1:35 PM
Well, IMO it is great to use real-world religion, but only if author can pull it off. I was a little afraid that people would flame me for saying that religion has been pretty much slaughtered by many authors, knowingly or otherwise. You know how people are defensive of their work, but I am glad that this is not the case as of now.

To those who feel that Christianity is the default religion, I would not go so far as to accept or reject that notion, but all religions are equal. Also, the central deity in Christianity has parallels in Allah and several central deities i other religions. There are also roots in Greek mythology and vice versa, as those who have read the DaVinci Code would likely know by now (one of the few portions of the book that is absolute truth). Also, the NT and OT differ slightly, as do the central antagonists. Do take measures not to blur those lines in writing.

I will be addressing several little-known facts about Christianity soon. Now that we have seen that Satan and Lucifer may not be the same entity, it is important to note that Eve may not (in fact, most likely not) be the first woman. Will be covering that and other areas soon, like usage of religion in novels and poems. If I have time, I will also touch on Solommon, Aleister Crowley, the Goetia, the bible's extra chapters as well as other bits like the birth of vampires and the validity of the Mad Arab's Necronomicon.

For those who want to venture into other religions, I suggest Egyptian religion. IMO, it has great potential, and I am going to use it in future fics. Extrapolated Christianity has roots and links as well as too many conflicting portions with Jewish religion, for example, to utilise fully.

Anyone with any questions can drop me a mail.

Ledian_X
9th November 2005, 4:07 PM
A person can pull off real world religion easily by doing a little research into it or altering it a bit like what Marvel Comics has done with Thor. They took the Norse myths and altered it a bit to create the blonde haired thunder God Thor, who was a founding member of the Avengers. The general public doesn't believe he's a God, though. But, he is. The Avengers and X-Men have both visited Asgard.

That's just one example of pulling it off. Marvel's done the same thing for Hercules. Aside from polythestic religions, many monothestic religions have been represented well. Daredevil's catholic for example as is Nightcrawler (he had a whole preist arc in Uncanny X-Men). The X-Men's Shadowcat is Jewish as is th Fantastic Four's Thing.

So, the point is that Christianity and Judaism can be done right with research. It's been done right in comics for a long ime and in other forms of literature.

In terms of my story, aside from the aliens the rest are Christians aside from Tk and Kaori. They were born in Japan and hwnce aren't Christian. But, I see what you're saying about avoiding conflict. You just need to research it and if you do that, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Or you can just make up a religion drawing upon Greco-Roman Gods and Goddesses like I did and having a whole race of aliens devoted to them.

LX

Ash_Junior
9th November 2005, 4:53 PM
o.0

people are actually considering bringing real life religions into their fics?

0.o

personally, I wouldn't, simply on the basis that this isn't earth, so thigns would be a lot different.

that's why I shudder each time I write the word "English" to describe the language that they're speaking. That's why I changed it to "Basic"

in my opinion, this is a completely new world, and shouldn't have ANYTHING from our world, unless it would be too hard to describe.

*shudders*

Ledian_X
9th November 2005, 5:12 PM
Religion brings a sense of realism, as I keep saying. That's why people are thinking of putting it in their fics. Sometimes it helps to define the characters if they belong to a very spiritual people. It can also deepen the character, give them a different view of things. So, why not bring it in if it can be handled correctly?

The Pokemon world could be Earth. Real World locations have been mentioned. It's possibly an alternate Earth. Just like my reality in the story could be an alternate reality. Point is, it brings a human aspect to the characters. It makes things realistic like violence for example. Sometimes to connect with the reader, you need to be realistic.

Even making up a religion is a good idea. You could base it on anything. So, why wouldn't be a good idea? All people have to do is research a religion nd take some aspects of it and try not to make people mad.

LX

Elemental Charizam
9th November 2005, 7:53 PM
I wondered when this wouls turn up...

EC's pointless religious fact of the day: Jihad doesn't actually mean rebellion, uprising or anything requiribng violence; it merely means to strive.

I think some people are too uptight about religion and mythology; sure, if you use it you should know your stuff, but if you're *BASING* something in your fic on it, you can take liberties. For example, Ninetails COULD easily be BASED on the Kitsune; they have several things in common. When basing an idea on something, you generally develop and change it, often so much so that people can't see the connection. You can deliberately change the 'reality' of religion in your work as well, ala the 'His Dark Materials' trilogy, though don't be suprised if people take offense.

As you may have guessed, I'm fine with the use of religion and mythology in fiction, though mythology is a safer topicc is you don't want to cause offense.

mindripper
9th November 2005, 8:07 PM
Jihad doesn't actually mean rebellion, uprising or anything requiribng violence; it merely means to strive.

It is derived from a word which means to strive, but jihad itself encompasses much more than merely striving. In modern context, it is unwritten truth that many Muslims use jihad as a shield of sorts and an excuse for "freedom fighting", while the rest of the world associates the term with violence, and with all that is going on, it is easy to see why. Jihad is actually the struggle to attain perfect spiritual faith, like nirvana, and is only violent when outwardly extrapolated to become a Muslim holy war against non-believers. As I said, many Muslims would feel offended by the mainstream association of jihad with violence, except that in many cases nowadays it is sadly true, albeit a twisted excuse.


For example, Ninetails COULD easily be BASED on the Kitsune; they have several things in common.

I answered that question already. "Easily be based" or "most likely" is just not enough when dealing with such issues. Many believe that Jesus rose at three in the afternoon, although I could be wrong on this, and we do not say that Jesus could be construed to have risen at three, because such things require fact. Therein lies the gist on which religious study as well as entire branches of knowledge is based on, that assumptions are taken to be false until proven true.


personally, I wouldn't, simply on the basis that this isn't earth, so thigns would be a lot different.
Well, it can be taken to be earth. The first movie had mention of a real location, right?

Kiyohime
9th November 2005, 9:47 PM
The old RBY series acknowledges the real world, as they make referrals to Lt Surge being an American.

≈*Virulent Tsunami*≈
9th November 2005, 10:37 PM
The old RBY series acknowledges the real world, as they make referrals to Lt Surge being an American.
Even in FR/LG, one of the entries on Lt. Surge in the Fame Checker is, "The Lightning American!" And that wasn't even a mistake, the Fame Checker wasn't in R/B/Y, so they didn't just use old information. They actually planned that. So I suppose the Pokémon world is like some sort of hidden region or something. XD I dunno.


~*CB*~
The 8th Champion

Dilasc
9th November 2005, 11:09 PM
What's to say that in 'America', that there aren't Pokemon, hmm? Who knows, maybe this 'America' place has Pokemon of its own.

It's probably split up into a billion regions too.

Kiyohime
9th November 2005, 11:14 PM
Exactly. In the California region, you'll find Pokemon who tend to be half-naked, tanned, and toting sunglasses or guns. In the Florida region, all the Pokemon are either from Cuba or really old. XD *runs before people from California or Florida lynch mob her*

Lady Barbara
10th November 2005, 4:10 AM
The only recommendation I can make to authors who plan to use religions as they exist in our world: do your homework. Research the rituals, concepts, ideologies, etc. If your character is of a particular faith, please make sure that it fits the story. On LiveJournal, someone ranted about Kagome from InuYasha being written as a Christian in a fic. The author herself was Christian. However, in the anime, Kagome is a Shinto priestess.

Yamato-san
10th November 2005, 4:01 PM
Kagome a Christian? Now that's f***ed up. Could she have converted in the fic? It's possible, but one would have to consider that it's extremely unlikely when she's in an era with several Japanese demons running around to confirm her faith.

For the record, "kitsune" is just the Japanese word for "fox". The whole idea of a fox living for centuries, growing tails and stronger magical abilities within that time, is just a myth surrounding the animal. In other words, it's no different from our myth of a cat having nine lives. Is there some single type of mythical cat that's able to die and be ressurected 8 times? No. Having nine lives is just a myth that generalizes all cats, so likewise, generally all foxes are supposedly gonna live long and grow more tails according to a myth surrounding them. With that in mind, the Pokemon Rokon and Kyuukon are indeed based off the "kitsune", as well as several aspects of the myth that surrounds the "kitsune".

The Pokemon world may be different from our's, but do remember that the regions in the game are based off of sections of Japan. Also, aside from the references to real world places in the games, the early episodes of the anime had several cultural references that makes a Japanese setting very, very apparent. My story takes place in Jouto, but I try very hard to give it a Japanese-style setting, and of course, I really do my homework concerning the culture. As for religion.... Japan's mainly built a mix of Shinto and Buddhist believes, and while there are other religions, they are an extremely small minority (I think I heard somewhere that Japan's Christian population is less than 2%). I haven't shown many aspects of Buddhism (honestly, I don't know near as much about it as Shinto, and one of the only major aspects on the culture I can think of it being involved in is funerals, since death is supposedly believed to be too grim a manner for Shinto to handle), but thus far, I have shown the characters involved in quite a few Shinto-based activities.

Dragonfree
10th November 2005, 4:54 PM
I use the teachings of my religion in my fanfics. The thing is, I hide them in a special way and so that no one can guess that it is of religion. Let me show you one account from Misty's Miracle to help you understand:

“Oh, there you are.” A female voice said near them. They turned to see May walking up to them.

(“May! I... I...”)

“You don’t have to say anything, Beautifly. I know.”

“We know.” Someone said behind May, correcting her.

They looked behind May to see Jessie walk up to them. She then stopped right in front of the insect pokemon.

“We know you love eachother.” Jessie said.

“We understand how you feel about eachother, but me and Jessie could never be together. Besides, something like that is just wrong in the end.” May said.

“Yea, it’s very wrong.”
----------------

Now, if you look at this part VERY CAREFULLY you'll notice a little account on same sex marriage and adultry in one. As you can see, it looks like someone's opinion in the story, when in reality, it's actually part of my religious teaching. In my religion, same sex marriage and adultry are both VERY serious sins. I didn't want to explain why because of the fact that I already had 20 pages for that chapter and I didn't want to make it too long.

My religion says that, and I quote, "We believe that the marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and is the only rightous one."

"We believe that same sex marriage offers no true happiness. It deprives the ultimate plan of the lord thy God. It offers no chance of children from the parents and thus doesn't give the gift of a family."

"A man should cleve unto his spouse and no one else. And the woman should do the same and seek no other man."

As you can see, there's alot to be said here from just those few lines. I hide my religous teachings like that to avoid arguments. By hiding it, I just don't have to suffer. :)
That's really propaganda, though, not a religious theme - you're using your fic as a medium for your political opinions without that really directly relating (as far as I can tell) to the point of the story. (I'm not accusing you - I've actually done the same in my fic, although that had nothing to do with religion.)

Actually, the plot of The Quest for the Legends revolves around a religious theme in many ways - and you could say an anti-religious theme, too, because [SOMEWHAT MAJOR SPOILERS] later on it starts to put a lot of focus on how despite the Legendaries' godlike status, they are just as imperfect and self-centered as humans.

mindripper
10th November 2005, 5:15 PM
Yamato San, the Japanese Yokai DOES include both Oni and Kitsune. It is irrelevant where the word "kitsune" is derived from, as from what I have studied, Kitsune commonly denotes a spirit, capable of morphing but commonly in the guise of a fox. Whether or not Vulpix and Ninetails are based on the Kitsune is a different matter, and I would not jump to conclusions there. As for why a cat has nine lives, will touch on that later.

Lady Barbara
11th November 2005, 2:22 AM
Kagome a Christian? Now that's f***ed up. Could she have converted in the fic? It's possible, but one would have to consider that it's extremely unlikely when she's in an era with several Japanese demons running around to confirm her faith.


I know, and that was the problem with the fic. Kagome's just presented as a Christian. There's nothing to indicated why or how or when she converted. I'm all for tweaking canon when it suits your story, but this was ridiculous.

Wondrous Sableye
11th November 2005, 3:04 AM
From what I've read(and it might just be wrong, but the person that wrote the source did what appears to be rather extensive research), a kitsune, as far as legends are concerned, is a fox that has lived for over one thousand years, by which point its fur turns gold, silver, or white. As to the power of hypnosis, the attack Confuse Ray could, in a sense, be deigned a form of hypnotism, could it not?

As far as the idea of sigils, with enemy forces appearing opposite and affiliated forces adjacent, that seems to have popped up in one of my ideas for a future story. Light, fire, and electricity (with wind being outside the polygon) are on the top corners of a hexagon, while darkness, water, and wood are on the bottom(with earth being, again, outside). Does that sound sort of like a sigil?

Kiyohime
11th November 2005, 3:20 AM
Look at Ninetales's Pokedex entries.

"Ninetales casts a sinister light from its bright red eyes to gain total control ove its foe's mind. This Pokemon is said to live for a thousand years."

"Very smart and very vengeful. Grabbing one of its many tails could result in a thousand-year curse."

"A long lived-Ninetales will have fur that shines like gold."

Ninetales learns Imprison, Confuse Ray, Grudge, Will o' Wisp. All rely on indirect control of the mind and pyrokinesis. Kitsunes can do the same. Therefore, they may not be TOTALLY based on a Chinese or Japanese myobu or nogitsune, but you have to admit the kitsune was the Ninetales' base inspiration.

mindripper
12th November 2005, 7:36 AM
As far as the idea of sigils, with enemy forces appearing opposite and affiliated forces adjacent, that seems to have popped up in one of my ideas for a future story. Light, fire, and electricity (with wind being outside the polygon) are on the top corners of a hexagon, while darkness, water, and wood are on the bottom(with earth being, again, outside). Does that sound sort of like a sigil?

A sigil is basically just a symbol. There are reasons why Wicca practitioners use such symbols, and it really is quite complicated, but magical sigils typically only have 5 points, as they are representative of the five magical elements, or rather the five colours of magic. Not really elemental forces or chinese elements, though.

On the topic of the Kitsune, Ninetails MAY be based on them, but there simply is not enough of a link, because the Kitsune can do much more than Ninetails ever can. You see, drawing a physical reference is not enough. Ninetail's pyrokinetic feats is not enough either, as if you replace said pyrokinesis with electrical abilities or the like, there are approximate equivalents in other mythologies as well. Coupled together, it makes a reasonable case for Ninetails being based on the kitsune possibly, but it is no more than a "maybe" kind of thing.

Kiyohime
12th November 2005, 7:42 AM
How many other white-golden-silver foxes with nine tails do you see in mythology? ONLY THE KITSUNE. It can't just be mere, silly concidence that Ninetales shares the same appearance, the inmate mind powers, the PYROKINESIS....AND you utterly disregarded the Pokedex entries I posted about Ninetales living over a thousand years, LIKE THE KITSUNE do. Therefore, rational and logical connections point to what seems to be apparent: The Kitsune was Ninetales' inspiration, and its base. Is that really so difficult to see? XD

Bu†cH
12th November 2005, 8:37 AM
You are a smart man, Scrap.

In an upcoming fanfic of mine, A couple of my characters are God's Messengers (name inspired by Scar in Fullmetal Alchemist), which hold abilities thought (and maybe known) to be holy.

Kiyohime
13th November 2005, 3:53 AM
*falls down* I'm a girl...XD That's probably the tenth or eleventh time I've been mistaken for a guy. 8D

Is your fanfiction Pokemon-related or another FullMetal Alchemist one?

Ryano Ra
13th November 2005, 3:59 AM
How many other white-golden-silver foxes with nine tails do you see in mythology? ONLY THE KITSUNE. It can't just be mere, silly concidence that Ninetales shares the same appearance, the inmate mind powers, the PYROKINESIS....AND you utterly disregarded the Pokedex entries I posted about Ninetales living over a thousand years, LIKE THE KITSUNE do. Therefore, rational and logical connections point to what seems to be apparent: The Kitsune was Ninetales' inspiration, and its base. Is that really so difficult to see? XDGo get 'em, Scrap.

I agree, you can't just push away factual points, Mindripper. You are failing to realize that the significances between an actual 'kitsune' and a Ninetales are pretty recongizable, if you get my drift. It isn't a 'maybe', for why would a Ninetales have nine tails, live over a thousand years, and so on and so forth. You are trying to set so many different abilities of a kitsune against a Ninetales that you fail to see what they have in common, which is enough to say that Ninetales was inspired by a kitsune. >> And it really isn't difficult to see; Mindripper is only making it difficult. ;_;

ImJessieTR
13th November 2005, 4:25 AM
My Team Rocket Trilogy was very heavy into mythology (because for some strange reason the links I provided for fanfiction.net work on every other site but this one, I began posting them here in Shippy fics). I have like ten books of mythology at my house and I've read them all about five times each. Because the idea for this trilogy is that pokemon become real in our future because of environmental pressure, I focus not on one religion but in the cultural mythology I figured the pokemon were inspired by. Hence, Ho-oh is a Western phoenix because it looks like birds drawn in Central-South American iconography, while Moltres is an Eastern phoenix because it looks like the cool Chinese phoenix on my robe. Entei is considered on some sites to be of Japanese origin, yet there is an Incan (Peru) sun god named Inti. And yes, I looked that up. That's why you see an Incan-type picture of Entei when either Molly or Professor Oak is looking at all pics of Entei. Lugia is born in the Pacific Ocean simply because there are tons of islands in the Pacific so it seemed to make sense. Zapdos is the Great Thunderbird of Plains Native American fame. I figured that by using an entire globe's worth of myths, no one could blame me for disrespecting anyone or focusing solely on my own.

Kiyohime
13th November 2005, 4:36 AM
Oooh, that's a great idea, ImJessieTR. I think I may try doing research on overlooked religions, see if I can't apply some to future stories. ^^

Bu†cH
13th November 2005, 4:37 AM
Is your fanfiction Pokemon-related or another FullMetal Alchemist one?

If you're talking about the upcoming one, then it is a Pokemon one.

Dilasc
13th November 2005, 5:15 AM
In my story, I use demons and space travel, and the odd worship of solar, lunar, and planetary objects in the solar system. In this way, Dust to Deceit is a blast to write, even if few even read it... but that's another story.

Regardless, a main point I need to make is that just because you're using a religious reference, doesn't mean you have to link it to the reference. For instance, in my story, I have five legendary Oni demons. They are not very Japanese based, considering that Kertonmel isn't even supposed to be based on a region of Japan at all. Instead, it's, the way I see it, more like a derangedly changed Mongolia, hence why talks of a blazing horde on Ponyta cavalry archers and camelry in the land's past help link it to a Mongolian Empire style setting.

Regardless, these demons are only Oni in that they are able to 'face' you. Other than that, they are strong demons who enjoy feasting on souls, blood, and enjoy causing chaos. Yet, they are anything but boring. In that way, they are fleshed out, and taking out flesh, but are still enjoyable, even if they are not the traditional Japanese demon.

All in all, stereotyping is a bad idea, especially with such a delicate and manipulable subject such as one's choice of deity/deities. That's why I rely on a more athiestic, scientific approach in my stories.

PsiUmbreon
13th November 2005, 5:22 AM
Meh, I just kinda do what I want in terms of the symbolism. In my fic, the symbolism isn't as important as the message behind the symbols. Besides, they're close enough. XD

Insincerus
13th November 2005, 5:56 AM
That's what Wikipedia is for 8D God, I love Wikipedia...

When using religion in a fic, it is terribly important to learn about said religion before writing anything about it at all. What you can't comprehend should not be expanded when writing about religion. For example, in my "Exsisto," the world is brought under the magnifying glass of reality when Pokemon, or creatures of unknown descent, suddenly appear in their world. You would wonder what would occur in such a situation? Religion. Naturally, there would be tons of religions either hailing these creatures gifts of the Gods or demons from Hell sent to terrorize Earth. Reality is a neat thing when something unpredictable in it happens 8D

mindripper
13th November 2005, 5:55 PM
I agree, you can't just push away factual points, Mindripper. You are failing to realize that the significances between an actual 'kitsune' and a Ninetales are pretty recongizable, if you get my drift. It isn't a 'maybe', for why would a Ninetales have nine tails, live over a thousand years, and so on and so forth. You are trying to set so many different abilities of a kitsune against a Ninetales that you fail to see what they have in common, which is enough to say that Ninetales was inspired by a kitsune. >> And it really isn't difficult to see; Mindripper is only making it difficult. ;_;

It is stuff like this that will cause a failed career in research. I have left the door open to the Kitsune being the basis of Ninetails' creation, and I have NOT rejected the notion, but am just saying that it is only possible at best. If you would prefer me to, I can name examples of other mythological creatures that bear resemblances to Ninetails, but that is beside the point.

Without showing you the same lack of courtesy that you showed me, I shall let you know why Ninetails are only POSSIBLY based on the Kitsune. They do not share the same characteristics, and that is the end ofr story. Saying something should be taken as a fact means that there is no room for logical extrapolation of any sort, and that any other contradictory notions must be rejected. Suddenly, the argument does not look so sound anymore, does it? I am not trying to make life difficult. Unconfirmed theories remain conjecture until proven beyond doubt.

So, they say that Troy is located in present-day Turkey, buried under at least 5 other civilisations, but that is mere majority conjecture. You willing to say that Troy is located in present Turkey as a fact because of something like that? Like Ninetails and the Kitsune, there are more than enough factors constant to establish that connection. In fact, due to Greco-Roman maps and information from the Iliad, Turkey is approximately where ancient Troy would be located; thus, it would have a more solid approach than Ninetails and Kitsune. You willing to state that abovementioned account is FACT beyond doubt?

On Troy and the Iliad, no one knows who Homer is, or rather, was. Samuel Johnson came up with a theory that the author of the Iliad and the Oddyssey were two different people, and that the latter's author was a female. It is common knowledge among scholars and researchers in that area, and they even have her hometown pinpointed. You willing to say that is a fact? That there is no reservation for doubt?

As long as any of the above answers is a no, welcome to my club. Very few things in life are fact. Read some thesis papers on that. Religion, however, deals mostly in fact. That the word "Armageddon" was derived from the bible is fact, and there is no room for other logical arguments. That e=mc2 is a fact, and there is no space for logical argument. That Tyrannosaurus Rex was a predator is NOT fact, because there is room for logical argument against that stance, which I am too lazy to post. That Ninetails is derived from the Kitsune cannot be solid fact too, and is merely a possibility, or a probability, if you prefer, because as long as there are arguments against, there is no solid fact.

Please, I am just doing a researcher's job. Do not make my life difficult. Your opinions are valid, and I understand them, but my statements are based on fact or lack thereof, and that is the end of that particular story.

Ryano Ra
13th November 2005, 6:10 PM
You're doing a researcher's job, you're a 'writer expert', what more can you do? --; We won't actually know if a Ninetales (not Ninetails) is from a kitsune, but many believe that that's where the inspiration came from. I believe it is a fact, though I understand what you mean by 'possibility'. Regardless, we won't actually know unless we asked the creator. 8D You believe that it is a possibility, others feel it is a fact; we could be wrong, or you could be. We're not sure, but it could be a fact. It could only be a possibility. But sure, I'd like to know others beasts that share similarities with a Ninetales. That'd be nice to know. ^^

mindripper
13th November 2005, 6:15 PM
Writers do research, the last I checked. No need for sarcasm, as I showed you none. Sure, I got a few on my head right now. I will post a list from my records on my desktop when I have free time later. Well, the fact of the matter is (pardon the pun) that until established beyond doubt, nothing is fact. There is a reason why beliefs are not concrete, even though we wish they would be. Good debate, and we will continue this at a later venture after I have provided evidence. Please do not degrade this into a slanging match, which would certainly defeat the purpose of the thread, and that is fact. :)

Ryano Ra
13th November 2005, 7:37 PM
Yes, we will. I just want to see what other beasts can be reflected upon the creation of a Ninetales. I don't want a slanging match, though I love to debate. However, I eventually give up. ;_;

Anyways, back onto the subject; like I said before, I believe that you should create your own mythology, if you plan to use what's already provided in the world, make sure to take fantastic notes and learn about it. Otherwise, you'd be basically abusing it. And I felt like Scrap's interpretation of Yin-Yang was used correctly enough, though I know little about Yin-Yang, only that one is good and one is bad.

mindripper
13th November 2005, 7:40 PM
Sure, will post later regarding that list of other beasts that have similar appearances and powers to Ninetails, or which can be associated with Kitsune. Knowledge shared is knowledge gained.

Well, religion, if used well, is a very powerful realistic tool, but without drawing Scrap into any situation, Yin-yang has does not involve good nor evil.

And a debate is always good, provided it does not sour, because that is how people learn. I learn a lot from these debates too. Take care.