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View Full Version : What do people want from an awards show, and what do they get? Time to make it RIGHT.



Ouallada
14th November 2005, 5:29 PM
I happened to drop by, and I personally think that awards are just shows of popularity. You all may agree or vehemently disagree, to the point of violent objection, but the fact remains that good authors sometimes get shafted due to lack of exposure, or due to reviewers who will not vote, or due to competitors having friends who WILL vote, or due to authors having enemies who vote against them, or combination of the above.

I have no idea if people have mentioned this before, but I have a sneaky feeling that I would be vindicated if I go out on a limb and say that issues like this have been raised before. Time to make it fairer, people. I hereby ask for permission to host the next awards ceremony, along with a co-host or two, and if given this chance, will present the board with new ways to make the system more fair.

Maybe some people hate the sight of me, maybe some authors cannot get over the fact that I ate their fics, does not matter. What matters most is that I am not particularly friendly with anyone on these boards, and thus will show no favouritism whatsoever. If given the go-ahead, I will then list ways in which I will make the next awards more conducive to fairness, and I dare to say that I will increase voting numbers.

I congratulate all those who have won recently, and hope that I will be given the chance to make the next one even better, and hopefully a model for further improvements.

Apparently I have gotten approval. I will be posting some new measures which have to be put in place for the next awards, which is the Christmas Awards, if I am not wrong. I may be screwed up to some authors out there, but I know how to do a job when I get one. I am now looking for a co-host or two, and any reader input for new measures, which will be assimilated into my own. There will also be new categories for awards, some catering to overlooked authors, and I will be making changes to the voting system. I have one question. What time frame do people want for fics to have to be active in for consideration?

Tale
14th November 2005, 5:52 PM
Well, I personally believe the awards are just a bit of fun, to be honest.

Though I do agree with you a bit, they can be very unfair due to popularity and friendships.

Maybe the awards are shows of popularity; but its still fun anyways =\

Though, you sound like you know what you're doing, so I'll back you up on that; it would be far more interesting if the votes were fairer.

Ouallada
14th November 2005, 5:57 PM
Have no worries. I may be overtly harsh, but I do a job well when I get one. My first step now is to set a time-frame for active fics, as well as for people to start pouring in with grievances. Anyone who feels let-down feel free to post.

Awards are fun, but it would be a lot better if they were fun AND fair, and that is what I aim for.

Still looking for co-hosts and other committee members when I announce the new layout.

Dilasc
14th November 2005, 6:38 PM
What do I want from an awards show? Simple... AWARDS! What else is there to want? Everything else is a superficial way to boost the winner's ego, while making the losers secretly jealous of the winners... or something like that.

Seriously, there should a be a limit to how many of the same person someone can vote for. In this way, I can... erm, I mean OTHERS including myself, can have a chance to actually win something.

Ouallada
14th November 2005, 6:45 PM
Dilasc, what does a given person want from a raffle? Money, prizes. Does that mean that given person is going toget it? No. I cannot say that I will accomodate every writer on these boards, and that is not my intention. My intention is to get authors who deserve more than they are getting their 15 minutes of fame. After that, whatever happens is up to them.

For better or for worse, I am now hosting the Christmas Awards, and bear with me till then. I could posibly limit the number of categories a writer can be nominated in, and I will also be making the nomination process more stringent, as well as applying the same for the voting process. Changes will be made for sure, and authors like Yamato-San and dear Dilasc will get their fair chances, seeing they have both gone out of their respective ways to promote their fics. There will be a few gimmicks as well. Will update.

Ledian_X
14th November 2005, 6:46 PM
Perhaps different categories would be needed like in PM's RPG awards? We could have:

Best Fic.
Best male Character
Best female character
Best suporrting character
Best couple
Best villian

And for genres.

Best Pokemon fic
Best Non Pokemon fic

Stuff like that could work.

LX

Dragonfree
14th November 2005, 8:13 PM
I am ready to run the awards with you, although I'll let you be the main host. Being a mod, I could help ensure complete fairness.

FlamingRuby
14th November 2005, 8:34 PM
I'm glad that some changes are being introduced...I have been nominated for awards, but never made it past Round 1....the main reason being that the same people win time after time, when there are some great authors like me that work hard, but go unrecognized.

Ouallada
14th November 2005, 9:03 PM
I am ready to run the awards with you, although I'll let you be the main host. Being a mod, I could help ensure complete fairness.

Fine by me, do not see how that would hurt. However, is it possible for you to decline nominations for the awards? A little unfair if the host is running for an award, if you ask me.

On the topic of categories, I will probably remove some categories, and add some in. Voting will be a lot fairer this time, and the Christmas Awards thread will be up tomorrow. Any changes will be listed then, but will be subject to change upon further assimilation of ideas, input of ideas from you all and discussion with my co-hosts.

Oh, and results, as well as votes, will be entirely transparent. No hiding behind red herrings or smokescreens. Everything will be called down the middle. I will decrease weightage of friendship votes. You all know who you are, and will act against "enemy votes" as well, among other things. PR work will be done by me and anyone who is involved.

I will also need a couple of people to scour nominated fics, and post reviews and excerpts. These will be vetoed by Dragonfree, any other co-host I may have as well as myself. Voting numbers will go up this time, and authors who put in long hard hours will be rewarded to the best of my ability.

Cheers, and look for the official thread tomorrow.

Burnt Flower
14th November 2005, 9:22 PM
Whoa, the awards ended yesterday and yet another award thread will be up tomorrow? Not complaining, but I'm a little amazed... o.o

Well, I really am curious about all the changes that there will be for the Christmas Awards though take in mind that potential voters are easily scared if the requirements to vote are a bit high (many people didn't vote for the Summer Awards since they had to read every single fic for each category).

Ouallada
14th November 2005, 9:25 PM
Well today is November the 14th. that is slightly more than a month to Christmas. We cannot be waiting till December the 14th before posting, right?

I think that people did not vote not due to criteria, but due to simple lethargy, as in they did not care enough. PR is the key here, and I will be doing quite a bit of it.

Negrek
15th November 2005, 4:26 AM
Dunno. Of course the last awards were all a show of popularity, but, as I think I brought up on the thread, that's what they are supposed to be: a popularity barometer. Basically, you're throwing the doors wide open to everyone who wants to vote, and so they're going to vote for their friends.

In that way, I think that the awards sort of served their purpose. If you wanted a more fair contest, one that is more likely to recognize the most excellent works as opposed to the most popular, then why not have more of a competition where works would be graded by a panel of judges as opposed to the masses? Because in the end, no matter what restrictions you place on voting and nominations, people are going to vote for whom they like. Unless you start rejecting votes because you think the person is voting because the work is popular, then you're extending your own bias into the contest anyway and you might as well just judge stuff. You're going to end up with a popularity contest one way or another, so if you truly want a contest of excellence, why not appoint people that you consider to be fair judges and have them vote, instead of everybody? Nominations would be still be open to everyone, but not everyone would vote, I guess is what it would come down to.

Just my take on it. Oh, and I'd also be happy to help, if you'd have me.

Psychic
15th November 2005, 5:36 AM
What Ouallada has aid was something I always thought of as being true. The awards are certainly fun, but in the end the most popular and well-known authors seem to win. There are plenty of very talented writers here who are constantly overlooked, and the fact that everyone rushes to fics that they've heard about as being good doesn't help much.

Not enough people are vooting nowadays, and those who are seem to be voting for all the same people. I think if the closet readers and other more shy and quiet readers could be drawn out then things would even out and become more fair.


In any case, I'd be delighted to co-Host the awards this year, if Ouallada and Dragonfree wouldn't mind my company. I may not be a Mod, but my reviews are fair and my opinions just.


On a final note, though some may find the thought of changing the system we use annoying, but a little change never hurt, so I'm all for it. Anything to even out the odds and make the FanFiction area a place you could go to and not be shy about expressing your opinions is great, really.

~Psychic

Dilasc
15th November 2005, 5:49 AM
I'd suggest a limitation on the amount of catergories that one can be voted for by the same person. I'll give an example.

Jon Doe is one of those said people who doesn't read much. He wants to votefor writer Moo in seven catergories because he doesn't read anything else. Jon Doe is outta luck, and best choose which two or three the author is best in.

Another way would be for nominated author's to suggest to their readers to read other stories, especially if they're the kind who are almost certain to landslide the competition, and thus make it no fun for those without a snowball's chance in the great beyond.

Breezy
15th November 2005, 7:20 AM
Omfg, I post this huge rant in the awards thread, and then I see this thread. That's lame.

Oh well. Quote time!


I do have some ishes with this award show actually. No offense intended to Saber, but there should be a limit to awards or nominations won. Like the author who got nominated more than 3 times has to pick 3 categories he or she would like to compete in. Awards run on the most popular author and story at the time, and therefore that author is going to win more votes. We still got to figure out a way how to make things fair.

... *sigh*

Alrighty, I wasn't going to say this, but I'm pretty disappointed with the results. =\ Not because I didn't win (most of you know I wanted to pull out but you guys made me participate -.-) but because despite how long we seemed to have this award show running, none of you gave the other fics a chance. Popularity again ranked high like the Pokéoscars. Other authors and stories deserved some awards than the author that won did.

I understand that the popular author is popular because people like his or her fic but...

The lack of participation irks me as well. I'm a hypocrite; I said I would vote and I didn't. It just didn't catch my interest like the last one did. But you know how many closet readers that all of us authors have? I don't even have 10% of reviews compared to views for HLBMA here I believe. If each and every one of you closet readers vote for the fic you like or the one-shot you adore, you know how great an award show that would be? People could win by landslides. People could win by one vote. It'd be more interesting that oh say Breezy and Iceking tying for second for best comedy author by two votes each out of 6 voters.

It's sad. Really sad. Pathetic really.

You guys know this too, I know you do. Nothing's going to change if you keep it bottled up like I almost did. Everything will end up repeating itself and no one will ever be happy.
We tried the panel of judges once I believe. Or we thought of it. We just never went through with the idea. I'm not sure if we have that many reviewers willing or skilled enough to do something like read a million fics in a short span of time due to impatient authors wanting to win words on a screen.

Funny. We're all excited over words on a screen. Words that won't really matter in a few weeks.

Knowing that you don't have friends or favorites here didn't have to be said Quallada. If you did favor people, we'd kick you out as host and have someone else take over anyways.

Popular authors don't become popular because of what they say to other authors but what they write. =\

Ouallada
15th November 2005, 9:28 AM
Knowing that you don't have friends or favorites here didn't have to be said Quallada. If you did favor people, we'd kick you out as host and have someone else take over anyways.

Popular authors don't become popular because of what they say to other authors but what they write. =\
__________________

On the contrary, that is VITAL to ensure fairness. I will go out on another limb saying that the issue of non-transparency has been brought up before, and will continue to be a problem unless solved. People treat friends differently from strangers or acquaintances. Simple fact of life. If I were to host, while having a couple of friends right here who I would be subconsciously showing favouritism to, I would be defending their opinions, ideas and promoting their nominations, no matter consciously or otherwise.

Popalar authors are popular because of what they write? I would not be so sure. How many people here review another's work because they chat on AIM, while ignoring another of similar or higher quality? How many are favourable to another because they share the same opinions, or because they are likely to back eac other up? Again, herd mentality, simple fact of life. PR is the most important facet i aspects such as this. You can be an average writer and still get your reviews if popular in other areas, but you cannot be a great writer and still get your reviews due to unpopularity in other areas. Why did Tolkien's triology fail until many years after publishment? Why does Gillette spend US$1billion on Mach3's advertising campaign? PR talks, and same applies here, like it or not. People who invest more time in reviewing other works, who have a networkof friends or contacts are going to be more popular, like it or not.

Negrek and Psychic, if the position of co-host is unavailable, as I have recevied several PMs about that position, would you all be willing to do some reviews and PR work? Works will be judged on both popularity and excellence, as the latter is indivisible from the former. I am undecided as to whether there will be a panel, but I do not think so. Voting will be open to everyone, but weightage and criteria will change.

Psychic
15th November 2005, 8:35 PM
I suppose I could do some reviewing work. Get out the old...things I use for reviewing...and get back to heavy-duty reviewing. :P Though so you know, I'm better at reviewing newbie fics than fics by those really great writers we have here.


The only thing is that, er, a friend of mine here has some plans she wants to try to put into action, and if it comes down to it then I will most probably join her. So if a conflict arises, the side I join may not be yours. Though if what she wants to do is ridiculous...but even then I can not say for certain.

What will happen I cannot say...

~Psychic

Dragonfree
15th November 2005, 9:36 PM
I suppose I could do some reviewing work. Get out the old...things I use for reviewing...and get back to heavy-duty reviewing. :P Though so you know, I'm better at reviewing newbie fics than fics by those really great writers we have here.


The only thing is that, er, a friend of mine here has some plans she wants to try to put into action, and if it comes down to it then I will most probably join her. So if a conflict arises, the side I join may not be yours. Though if what she wants to do is ridiculous...but even then I can not say for certain.

What will happen I cannot say...

~Psychic
Conflict? Join a side? Plans?

That sounds to me like it has something to do with protesting against Ouallada's version of the awards by stirring up trouble... which I'm hoping is just a misinterpretation...

+Chaos Blade+
15th November 2005, 11:37 PM
[Checks New Award Thread]

DAMN! Just when I was about to start the next award show, this happens! -_- Why me?

Anyway, what I would like from an awards show is no popularity. If you nominate something, it's not supposed to be "because I like him/her". No, it should be because you think that their fic has potential and ability, uniqueness, and all of the important aspects of a fic. Not just because you're paired up, twinned up, triplets, she's your big sister, et cetera.

What I would like is a strict award show that will make the panel of judges look at every fic nominated, check every review, and know it, so they can know that that fic deserves a nomination. Then, it gets more involved when it comes to voting. If you say you're going to vote, VOTE.

+Chaos Blade+

Ledian_X
16th November 2005, 12:26 AM
Everything seems good so far for the awards show. I don't mind there being one but I do have a few questions. What role do non pokemon fics play in the awards? I notice that forum doesn't get as much activity as the rest of the board. Should we have a Non Pokemon fic awards ceremony too?

Also, in order to make things fair, could the judges read the nominated fics and review them? Just a couple quick questions. Other than that, everything looks good so far! Will it matter if fics are complete or not?

LX

Ryano Ra
16th November 2005, 1:26 AM
[Checks New Award Thread]

DAMN! Just when I was about to start the next award show, this happens! -_- Why me?

Anyway, what I would like from an awards show is no popularity. If you nominate something, it's not supposed to be "because I like him/her". No, it should be because you think that their fic has potential and ability, uniqueness, and all of the important aspects of a fic. Not just because you're paired up, twinned up, triplets, she's your big sister, et cetera.

What I would like is a strict award show that will make the panel of judges look at every fic nominated, check every review, and know it, so they can know that that fic deserves a nomination. Then, it gets more involved when it comes to voting. If you say you're going to vote, VOTE.

+Chaos Blade+Actually, Chaos Blade, myself and others were going to operate this awards, but I decided to hold back until the Spring. ^^;; I'm already ahead of ya, bro. Also, Ouadalla might do a better job that what we can expect from mostly everyone, so let's sit back and watch.

I wish you guarantee luck and success come this awards, because I really hope to see that this awards'll be more of a success that the PokeOscars and Summer Fiction Awards combined. ^^ I'll be back to post my suggestions in a bit.

Kiyohime
16th November 2005, 3:05 AM
I'm not altogether sure if this is the right place to say this, but I wish you the best of luck with this award show.

The fallout from the last award show has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

I am tired of having to feel this guilt, this feeling like I'm some horrible elitist author who's part of the "herd" when the situation isn't quite that. The awards need to go to other people, other people who need a chance. I had my chance, I got recongition, but now it's time for the new, the overlooked, and all other aspiring authors to get their recognition.

I wish you trememdous success. I will also do my part to make this award show a success and submit votes.

+Chaos Blade+
16th November 2005, 3:07 AM
Actually, Chaos Blade, myself and others were going to operate this awards, but I decided to hold back until the Spring. ^^;; I'm already ahead of ya, bro. Also, Ouadalla might do a better job that what we can expect from mostly everyone, so let's sit back and watch.

I wish you guarantee luck and success come this awards, because I really hope to see that this awards'll be more of a success that the PokeOscars and Summer Fiction Awards combined. ^^ I'll be back to post my suggestions in a bit.

Double Dammit!

Well, let's try during the summer...again. Fwee, a year of planning! XP

Anyway, yeah, good luck with the Awards show. I'll try to slip in Bloody Turmoil, so you guys can vote for it.

+Chaos Blade+

Ryano Ra
16th November 2005, 3:25 AM
Scrap, I shall follow your path.

From a great friend of mine, I wish to excluse myself from any nominations in the fanfiction awards. I have been recognized as the Best Fantasy Writer when I believe, from my true heart, that I still have a ways to go. I want to see what others can do in the world of fantasy instead of myself being constantly recognized. Also, my chaptered fanfiction won't be hitting the forums until after Christmas, and I highly doubt that I'll make the deadline for nominations and such. Ouadalla, if you carry out this awards with success, please exterminate any nominations of the name Serpent Syra. It is time for the people to search for a new fantasy writer so many can be inspired by more than one instead of one. I'm tired of being recognized as a fantasy writer when I know someone here is working harder than me in the same field, for example, Chaos Blade and Neo Pikachu. There are countless of others, and they remain in the black sands. Let them be recognized.

I've had my glory, I've had my awards, and I think that time this, I should be exempt. It is my best wishes to you, so please go along with this.

Saffire Persian
16th November 2005, 3:42 AM
I agree that it shouldn't be about popularity, even though you have to admit, popularity will slink somewhere into it. But what I would like out of the fanfiction awards, is a good, honest one, where writers are nominated for their stories because they are something special - something worth mentioning.

You know - the kind of fic that throws a brick at you, not caring whether it hits you or not, or whether you like it or not, as long as it makes an impression.

I also agree what you said, Syra, about the who are shunned because they are not popular, but have honestly good works. They need to be brought forward, though I wouldn't go so far as to say that you (As well as other popular authors) don't deserve the awards and recognition for the hard work you (and they) have put into your stories.

Negrek
16th November 2005, 4:24 AM
Sure, I could do reviews and PR. I do suck at PR, as a forewarning, but I could try. I have some reviews to do right now, but they should be done with long before the awards, anyway.

Elemental Charizam
16th November 2005, 1:45 PM
I can see the problem, but I'm not sure if the limiting the amount of awards thing is the right way to go. It stops people voting for who they want, and if you can't do that, what's the point of voting anyway? You wouldn't vote for an undeserving person (on purpose ) would you?

And if you have to stop the prize dogs raising (forgive the unflattering analogy) then where's the glory in winning anyway?

I'm kinda glad I won't be in the next awards :p
Ze quoted from Breezeh's thread, this pretty much sums up my views...

Ouallada
16th November 2005, 2:33 PM
I assume you meant "racing"? No matter. It does not stop people from voting for who they want, but what it does is to ensure that voters use their votes wisely and not just cast votes for the sheer fun of it. Also, if more people vote, and each person can vote in fewer categories, then it stands that there will likely be a wider spread of winners, at least in the lesser categories. Before you say that these people may not be deserving, I suggest that perhaps you could read several of the nominees' works first, before deciding on that point.

Nobody mentioned that past winners cannot compete. Past winning fictions cannot compete. Do you see "Heya" being entered in both 2003 and 2004 music awards shows, even though it was released at the end of 2003? Makes no sense at all to allow a fic to compete in more than one awards show.

Elemental Charizam
16th November 2005, 8:03 PM
But, with the exception of one shots, fanfictions here are rarely entered complete, and they've almost certainly changed since the last awards. Fanfictions here are ongoing works, not finished products being released. Entirely different from your analogy. It also means there are far fewer fics eligible for the awards.

Yes, I meant racing. My mind must have slipped for a second there.

You've given your point, that your system means people use their votes wisely, bbut you haven't given the evidence to suport it. I recognise that logically it'd mean a larger spread of votes, assuming more people vote, but anyone who wins will know that they haven't truly won, because somebody else had to be taken out so they could win. So in truth, as they haven't competed with evreybody in that category, then they haven't defeated all oential competitors and thus have not won. I think we should try and simply persuade people to look at the other fanfictions, and if they appeal to them less, so be it. It's not as voted for by the people if you don't let the people vote for who they truly think should win. Who is anyone to say their vote is biased? Because I'm freinds with Burnt Flower, does that mean if I voted for her over somebody else in the horror genre then I would be biased? I think not.

I'm not saying that lesser known authors are undeserving, but its a large possibility that they aren't the best in their field of writing. How good something is is opinion, like it or not. If youprefer somebody's writing over somebody else's you should have the right to vote as such.

Ouallada
16th November 2005, 8:18 PM
Using your own words, where then is the evidence that the previous system is serving the purpose better? On one hand, you all argue that the awards are done in fun, and yet how fun is it when the same people win over and over again? On the other hand, there is the argument that the awards are supposed to be a fair reflection of ability, but how is this possible with prevalent subconscious aiding? I offer you no evidence for my aims, and I am sure that even as you typed that down you knew that it would be impossible on my part, just as it would be impossible on your part if I request that you gave me evidence for previous' awards success. As I said, there is only a failure to try.


I recognise that logically it'd mean a larger spread of votes, assuming more people vote, but anyone who wins will know that they haven't truly won, because somebody else had to be taken out so they could win.

No one was forcibly "taken out". Let us be logical here. Cast aside the contempt that familarity has afforded, and think for a second why said exclusion is more good than harm. You argue for constant evolution. I ask if said evolution is positive and negative. If it is the former, then the story would be even BETTER than before, and it already has the award to show for it. Would its participation and subsequent victory be any less hollow than if it was removed? I doubt so. If its evolution was negative, need we say more?


It's not as voted for by the people if you don't let the people vote for who they truly think should win. Who is anyone to say their vote is biased? Because I'm freinds with Burnt Flower, does that mean if I voted for her over somebody else in the horror genre then I would be biased? I think not.

That is a point that I have conceded from the start, that no system is entirely perfect. Give and take. You still have three votes, and I assume you will use them wisely, all the while showing an adequate knowledge in Burnt Flower's fic. If you do not even make an attempt to view the competition, and do not take them seriously, then it cannot be too absurd that your vote is weighted down. If you have at least viewed all the competition and have shown signs that you understand their work, then we would not have a problem, would we? It is not as though you were being handcuffed, with no options at all but to vote for someone you do not like. Also, as I have said, I would rather get it wrong a few times and give everyone a fairer chance on the whole, than to cater to a specific audience.

It seems that certain people are riled up a little, as I have expected, and I ask this. You have three votes, and an author can win a maximum of five awards, so is this really that drastic a change from the last time, given the fact that parity is more prevalent? Perhaps if people would actually view things in a positive light, accept change and make the best of any situation, all the while keeping an open mind about other unknown authors, we could actually have something better on our hands.

indigestible_wad
17th November 2005, 4:36 AM
Well how about this for an idea? Why don't people just submit the fanfictions they want people to vote on in a thread and work from there? Make the reviewers read all the stories there before coming to a conclusion. Wouldn't that be a logical way to go? Wouldnt' that stop any of this popular not popular crap?

Then again, it is sort of impossible to review everythign if so many stories are placed on your lap at one time. There should be a good way to filter stories.

And if some of my ideas have been said or ar already in action, ignore them. I have been mostly absent from the fanfiction forum for a while now.

Elemental Charizam
18th November 2005, 6:31 PM
Not that I'm not willing to give your ideas a try Ouallada, but this is a thread for what we think should be done, and as such I'm just giving my views to you. It's true we can't know exactly how your way of doing things will work, but we can guess from past experience.

I just think that if people have to justify every vote (not so bad as there areonly three) with several paragrahs showing they've read the others as well as the fic they want to vote for, then lots of people will lose interest due to laziness or time constraints. With lots of new fics trying to be attracted and so many categories, they'll have to do a whole lot of reading if you do manage to get lots of new authors nominated. Again, work =/

Ouallada
19th November 2005, 7:47 AM
Charizam, what we have on our hands, both on mine and your own, is mere conjecture. Can you tell me for sure a person who has been made to feel involved in the awards, unlike predecessors, is going to be lazy for sure? As I said, I wil monitor votes and take action when I see fit. You can not bother with other fics and just vote for the only one you read, but then I will simply weigh your vote down.

Charizam, I do not understand what you mean about extra work. Reading other fics in the same category before making an informed choice is part and parcel of the voting process, and if you say that my idea of enforcement has making voters show evidence of said reading a flaw, then perhaps you are suggesting that voters in previous awards neglected to read other fics save the one they voted for? In the case of a voter only reading one fic and voting, then how can that vote be worth as much as another who has read all the fics? The notion of work is an illusion, as it is supposed to have been done all along already. What my system does is to weed out those who vote without knowledge of all the fics, and make everything more fair.

As I have said, if people are involved with the awards, they will naturally be more inclined to read other fics. I am sure that is how you all got involved in the first place.