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Ryano Ra
25th November 2005, 10:04 PM
Yes, another topic by Serpent Syra. ^^

After completing the tenth chapter of Sky, and brewing ideas up for the eleventh and how I want to approach it, I stumbled upon a problem that I need different views for. Like the title, says, action scenes w/legendaries.

Legendaries are considered to be Pokemon that authors barely touch in fanfiction (trainer fanfictions, that is), though I have a fantasy/action hybrid fanfiction that involves the three legendary beasts, Raikou, Entei, and Suicune. They are disastrous monsters that are trying to kill the major character, who is human (and a warrior), though I wonder would be appropriate for a warrior to have a deadly battle against a legendary? I've read stories where when humans attempt to even approach them, they are somehow sentenced in the present or future. Now, I really wanted to stray away from the curses and other properties, having an exciting, mind-blowing battle between man and Pokemon.

So, I need opinions; what are your feelings upon people battling legendaries, people fighting legendaries (to protect themselves), legendaries getting hurt, and them actually fighting against humans without running away? The three elemental beasts are utterly deranged, wild, and insane, but nevertheless, they are legendaries and they set boundaries, in accordance to them with humans. I just wanted opinions on it with the scenes and such, whether it'd be appropriate to write a person actually fighting a legendary in attempt to defense himself/herself and possibly painfully hurt the beast in the process? Or should I simply remain legendaries fighting against other Pokemon?

Chibi Pika
25th November 2005, 10:13 PM
Legendaries are considered to be Pokemon that authors barely touch in fanfiction (trainer fanfictions, that is)
Actually, since so many darn n00bs poison their fics with Legendarys, all the good authors seem to hide from them. I love Legendaries, even in trainer fics. The way I see it, it's one of those make it or break it things.

Now, legendary battles are an inevitablity in Legendary-based fics, and from the way you've desribed the situation your fic has set, I don't see why it would be any problem. In my fic, most of the Legendaries remain apprehensive toward the humans' growing power, and regard the species with a wary and contempt view, even though eight of them are instructed to handpick a human to side with them. In a later chapter, the main character is summoned to a challenge with a Legendary that would ultimately determine their position in a war.

But enough of that. If the three of them are trying to kill the main character, I see no way that it could backfire, as there would be no reason for them to flee if they were pressing the attack. Avoiding the curse concept is a thumbs-up right now, I can tell you.

~Chibi~;249;<?>;rukario;

Negrek
25th November 2005, 10:18 PM
I see no problem with pitting your main character against a legendary, but seriously, if they're out to kill him he's going to die unless he's got some ultra-spiffy weaponry on him.

I agree with Chibi Pika in that the avoidance of legendaries is mainly due to all of the cute little 'fics where the main character begins with a Mew. Legendaries are some of the most fun to write, imo, and as long as you treat them well they will do fine in a story.

Ryano Ra
25th November 2005, 10:19 PM
Yeah, I'm desperately running away from the 'legendary-curse-if-you-try-to-fight-them' spell. I find it a useful source in legendary short stories, but not this time around.

Yes, the three elemental beasts want to exterimate him from the world, raging across Galabonia and scaring them to display their growing rage. However, I'm stuck with the fact that they would have the ability to do a 'hit-and-run' scene, basically meaning they attack, then use Roar to escape or something of that area. And plus, some people seem to stray away from battles where man is fighting against legendary, and man is actually winning. Sure, the beast will eventually escape once taking over the entire battle, though I'm just *iffy* about the whole thing.

EDIT: For Negrek's comment, the main character will not actually die, to be honest, since the legendaries will go through a process called "regrouping" where after they do so much damage, they leave and confront the trainer somewhere else, hoping he has grown weaker. They plan to kill him the slowest and deadliest way, which is the best in their eyes. >>; And yeah, legendaries are wonderful to write about, especially displaying what powers they have over average Pokemon and such. ^^

Faerie
25th November 2005, 10:21 PM
I'm actually planning to use a Legendary in Love and Loyalty sometime. It's going to be portrayed as different than the kind of Legendary than they show in the anime, games; I'm avoiding the cliches in every way possible. I won't say any more about it as not to spoil anything, but I might post it in the "How do you see your fic ending?" thread if anyone wants to know. xD

Kiyohime
25th November 2005, 10:27 PM
Sin's going to be chock-full of Legendaries, but not doing exactly what one might expect.

For starters, I have Regirock threatening to stomp Zeffy flat over a small dispute between the two. Then there's Rayquaza, who gets infected with Sin (this was originally suggested to me by Serpent Syra, then he's using it in his fic now, so no accustations of plagarism) and begins to attack settlements until the SIN "burns" him out from the inside. It's intended to demostrate how the legendaries are so powerful, not even a small army could defeat it, only attempt to hold it off until it died from the SIN virus. What I'm trying to show is, legendaries can die (although don't EVEN try with ordinary human weapons) and return to the Void ruled over by Yin (Lugia), but they can be eventually resurrected if Yang (Ho-oh) wishes it.

I suppose it all relies on how skilled the author is to avoid making legendaries all two-dimesional and cliched. ^^;; I'm fairly confident you'll do well.

Ryano Ra
25th November 2005, 10:34 PM
Exactly, Scrap. (I reply to these threads so quickly, don't I? ^^) And oh course, no plagarism, since my virus doesn't actually kill the legendaries, more like sending them insane until they die from natural causes or something. ^^ Though, the legendaries don't only fight the main character...they have other goals and dreams such as supremacy and dominance.

I asked this because I have never written about legendaries within any of my fanfictions, so I'm fairly new to writing about them (excluding my first stories where the trainers had a baby Suicune, Raikou, or Entei. 8D) So, I'm not sure about people's opinions concerning people fighting against legendaries, whether it is a turn-off or turn-on. x.x Plus, whether or not a legendary should be painfully bleeding or bruised from a battle with man, since it would be a new category from regularly battling against another Pokemon.

Kiyohime
25th November 2005, 10:42 PM
Hmmm..if memory serves right, in the manga, the Three Beasts exuded energy fields so powerful, it was impossible for humans to get near them unless they had special equipment (oxygen respirators and all that stuff).

~RaikouRider243~
25th November 2005, 11:12 PM
Hmmm..if memory serves right, in the manga, the Three Beasts exuded energy fields so powerful, it was impossible for humans to get near them unless they had special equipment (oxygen respirators and all that stuff).

Unfortunately, yes. The legendaries, in the manga, are depicted as way too powerful IMO. I find that if legendaries are that powerful in fics, it is extremely difficult to get them to interact with characters.

My fics have depicted the legendaries as being dozens of times stronger than regular Pokémon, not millions of times stronger. The manga depiction of legendaries basically says "no matter how many ordinary Pokémon you put against a legendary, it can overcome them all...and that oversteps type barriers." I find that fics become more exciting when legendaries start losing to Pokémon you wouldn't think of as all that strong...in a realistic fashion of course. We can't have Raikou losing to a pack of Magikarp now can we lol...

Ryano Ra
25th November 2005, 11:17 PM
Hmmm..if memory serves right, in the manga, the Three Beasts exuded energy fields so powerful, it was impossible for humans to get near them unless they had special equipment (oxygen respirators and all that stuff).o.o; Thank you for the valuable information, there, Scrap. Now, is there any possible way that I can simply avoid this matter and just write them as I would normal Pokemon, only with more...featured appearances and such? Regardless, I'm still not sure if a person would actually be able to land a hit upon a legendary, since they have so many powers and can simply put a Protect barrier around their body and blow the person back like a gale. --;

RaikouRider, I plan on doing the same; the legendaries will be oh course stronger than average Pokemon, but does that actually make them stronger than humans, let alone warriors or assassins? I mean, sure it would, but assassins are specialized-trained killers. I'm trying to find a way that a person (with a sword) would be able to work his/her way around a legendary's deceitful tricks and actually land excruciating blows on it. And, possibly find a way where the person isn't punished for it in a future chapter. o.o

Kiyohime
25th November 2005, 11:28 PM
Well, try comparing the odds to a human defeating a lion or a grizzly. The animals are stronger, faster, and don't judge or make moral decisions, but defend themselves and flee when they feel it's neccessary. Humans have rational minds, and so do the Beasts, so the odds may be a bit doubled. However, if they're rendered insane by the Slinx Virus, then that may downgrade their rational thought a bit, so it's all down to who's got a bigger gun, I guess. XD

Ryano Ra
25th November 2005, 11:35 PM
Yes, the Slinx Virus does corrupt their intelligence, blowing their knowledge and thinking and critical boundaries of the mind around like crazy horses stamping cowboys on mountains. 8D

And thanks for the suggestion, Scrap, about the comparing segment of your post. ^^ I'll take that into great consideration and thought when I start writing up the eleventh chapter. The beasts' minds, however, have enhanced once the virus reaches its climaxing point before setting back down. Nonetheless, I'm still worried about whether it'd be fair or not to have the main character inflict damage upon them.

+Chaos Blade+
25th November 2005, 11:37 PM
In Life of a Trainer, the original, Trevor had to save Legendaries. In "Rewritten", he'll do the same, but, probably the Pok&#233;mon he saved, injured as they are, will fight back. Sure, it can lead to more plots, like if a rescued Jirachi has its left arm broken and can't use Meteronome correctly, etc.

I'm planning a scene in BT in which a Gyarados [I don't know if it could be the main character's], who's a wussy, and has a crappy nature, fights a Regi. Not too sure, though.

+Chaos Blade+

xXSaberXx
26th November 2005, 12:14 AM
D: *sighs*

Teh legendaries. xPPPPPPPPPP

Welps. Battles with Legendaires......I think, personally, would never really happen. To me, they like to stay as hidden as possible because of humans, basically, but if you're all doing another world, then that's another thing. ^^


So, I need opinions; what are your feelings upon people battling legendaries, people fighting legendaries (to protect themselves), legendaries getting hurt, and them actually fighting against humans without running away?

People vs. Legendary

Welps. They'd die. The people, I mean. Legendaries, in general, are named that for one reason; they are different from other pokemon. They have certain powers, and usually have a direct link to a powerful earthly attribute, like time, space, lightning, water, fire, ice, rebirth, the sea, etc etc. They are almost like gods, and the humans want them for this reason. For power, essentially. Unless using another legendary, it would take around maybe a million people to subdue or let alone TOUCH a legendary. Possibly. Even armed with guns. Bullets can be deflected with speed, water walls, pyschic powers, etc.

Fighting Legendary to Defend Self

Well, why would they attack you in the first place? In any case, if they did, I think they'd just outright kill you. Maybe if you were a trainer, you could stand a fighting chance, but not without pokemon. Definetly not.

Legendary Getting Hurt

Unless its with another legendary or a pokemon, then no. No way they could get hurt by just a bullet or taser round. XP Not even a plasma cannon.

Legendary Fighting but Winning Without Running Away

They would probably just either, A. Massacre everything, or B. Detain the people/pokemon/whatever with a water cage/sleep technique/etc.

xP

My opnions. *dance* o.O

Klaus
26th November 2005, 1:29 AM
Yes. All in all, the human would die. Cause I mean, Raiko can shock you to death. Entei could burn you to death and Suicune could freeze you to death. That's why they stay hidden as xXSaberXx said. They don't want to have to kill you. And they could bite your neck faster then you can run. The only way one can be injured is by another legendary.

As always, be kind the mime.

≈*Virulent Tsunami*≈
26th November 2005, 1:41 AM
Heh, my Fic IS a Legendary Battle ;P

Well, when the First War began, humans weren't around. So I just had the Legendaries duking it out, beating the sense out of each other. Whether their allegiance was to Kyogre, Groudon, or if they acted independently, they were still fighting.

But now, since humans are around, and the Second War looms on the horizon for humans and Pokémon, I dunno exactly how to handle it. I think I like my original idea, where the Regis build a sanctuary for the humans to shelter in as the War extends across Hoenn. Makes the most sense, as Regice's goal in its renewed life will be re-creating the Lost Utopia. So when there are people to protect and rooms to be filled, it'll be a great place for shelter.

IMO, though, generally speaking, there shouldn't be overkill on the Legendaries. It's alright for me, because my Fic is Legendary-based, but if you plan to bring in Legendaries, I'd advise against using too many, because it would be extremely dull and redundant having all of them killing everything.

Lol hypocrisy ._.


~*CB*~
The 8th Champion

Dragonfree
26th November 2005, 2:12 AM
*shrugs* You can interpret legendaries as you like, really. Heck, I'm inconsistent and my fics are all different in this aspect. In Mew and Legendary Revenge, they're gods but mortal and not THAT much stronger than a regular Pok&#233;mon, but will be avenged if killed. In The Quest for the Legends they're practically immortal and extremely powerful, but actually not godly in nature although it may seem so at first (very slight spoiler unless combined with information that nobody knows but me, so highlight away if you want). Then in Chains and Shackles, Mew simply IS God (which is kinda funny because I'm agnostic-leaning-towards-atheism, but meh). So yeah... up to you, as long as it makes sense.

Dilasc
26th November 2005, 2:22 AM
Dust to Deceit has a legendary theme. Heck, the whole land has its own legendaries, the demonic mask onis. The way I see it, legendaries are supposed to be the defenders of their region. Of course, these Oni are defenders, but they are evil rats at heart.

These five demons will clash against Lugia, aided by Moltres, and havoc will rip the land, the way it did five hundred eighteeen years ago. Humans too will clash, all over the Orbital Occult, and the portal maker legendary gas tank Vortexaco.

Now, personally, I used to despise legendaries myself. Then, recently, why just back a few months ago when I rebirthed my precious Dust to Deceit, I came to the realization that legendaries aren't so bad. They are not mindless, and are in fact, very different in personalities. Well, other than the 00ber legend, Vortexaco. Vortexaco has a more robotic wavelength to its mind, much like a Magnemite... even if it is Psychic. Uh, but both you and I will both find out, since I personally have to work out the details on that one.

Zerodius
26th November 2005, 2:35 AM
Now, here is my opinion concerning fighting Legendary Pokemon in fanfics.

The Legendary Pokemon are insanely powerful, often portrayed as the Pokemon World's deities, nothing less! Even when they aren't deities, they're powerful enough to wreck entire continents by themselves and manipulate the very fabric of time and space.

As such, there are two solutions...

Either your character uses the power of another Legendary Pokemon to counter the beasts...

Either your character has a legendary weapon of some sort...

Or your character is backed up by thousands and thousands of characters that unleash the element against which the Legendary Pokemon are weak...

Finally, the Legendary Beasts are weakened to a point where your character can stand a chance against them.

As for your character facing them without a Legendary-class weapon or without them being weakened on his own and not being completely P0w3nd, well, this classify as an instant "Gary Stu/Mary Sue" since your character is stronger than three Legendary Beasts on his own... unless the Beasts are fakes which are not nearly at the level of the originals.

This could be another possibility, make the Beasts be copies that aren't nearly as strong as the originals.

Final possibility: Legendary Pokemon, in your fic, are portrayed as just regular Pokemon except a bit stronger than average. I hate this view usually since altought I admit that my stories stray very far from the canon, I like some characters to at least share some characteristics with the canon (such as the Legendary Pokemon being worthy of the legends surrounding them).

Well, that's all.

Ryano Ra
26th November 2005, 5:57 AM
Before I continue, might I add that the Slinx Virus is capable of weakening the legendary beast every time they are using an attack. For example, after every assault or attempted attack by Suicune, her attacks decreases in triple amounts. However, she'll nevertheless hold up for a very long time, since she's a legendary and they have 'magical powers' to heal. However, I don't want to make it seem as though SHE is the powerful one and cannot be beaten. With the right weapons (and just a sword, ladies and gents. No legendary weaponry-crap) and such an insanity virus as such, I think the legendaries won't have such an easy time battling against a sword-training human.

Kiyohime
26th November 2005, 6:12 AM
The way I see things, Legendary-wise:

Don't screw around a lot with legendaries such as Mew, Lugia, Ho-oh, Celebi, and Jirachi. All those guys have near-godlike status what with the powers they have. They float around up there being, well, gods. XD

Kyogre and Groudon --as well as Rayquaza-- come just under the aforementioned, but are slightly limited thanks to Rayquaza and the orbs. They mostly sleep.

Then there's the Regis and the Lati twins, very powerful but keep to themseves. They simply guard, and so on.

And last on the Legendary pyramid, there's both trios of Birds and Beasts. They have contact with humans sometimes, the way I see it, but still keep to themselves because of their extreme power. But they roam around the land freely, so that makes them more suspectible.

May not make sense to anyone except me, but ah well. 8D If that helps, I'm glad.

Zerodius
26th November 2005, 6:21 AM
Well... according to your explanations, your character is definitely a "Gary Stu/Mary Sue".

Unless the virus weakens the Legendary Beasts to the point where a common Scyther can fight all three of them at once, your character still comes off as a "Gary Stu/Mary Sue".

Reason? Well... human reflexes just can't keep up with Pokemon's... especially if the Pokemon have any kind of skills regarding combat.

In short, unless your character is some kind of uber "super human", it is impossible for your character to actually stand a chance.

In short: hopelessly flawed battle scene.
Suggestion: remove it.

Yes, this is harsh... but this is the Legendary Beasts we are talking about. Do you HONESTLY think that a mere common human could beat them up by swinging a little piece of junk metal around (especially considering that it is ONLY a piece of junk metal and isn't special in any way, form, or shape)? As said above, unless the virus makes the beasts both insane and worthlessly weak, the scene is flawed.

End of story.

Kiyohime
26th November 2005, 6:25 AM
As much as I hate to admit it, Zerodius makes a good point. ><;; I know you write fantasy, so swords are a must, but think about it-- fire melts metal, ice freezes it and makes it shatter, and lighting can torch the human if channeled through the iron. It would be very difficult to win, so consider further additions to make it all integrate better. ^^

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 6:46 AM
Syra, I would advise the removal of the scene as well. It does not matter what genre you are writing, a story or a story element cannot verge on absurdity, ever. Well, unfortunately, this is especially true for fantasy. Seeing that you love fantasy so much, I find it hard to believe that you fail to gasp that concept. Fantasy is broadly defined as the usage of imaginary elements within a story. The unwritten rule about fantasy is that imagination is rooted within reality, such that your environment and setting is not completely alien, but a mix of what we would expect to see, and what we want to see.

For example, we do not see humans with wings very often in fantasies, because they are simply not bound to reality. Critters with powers are often those which are NOT grounded in reality, ie not present in our world, and thus can be attributed with said powers. Once you lose track of that concept, and believe that the notion of fantasy can explain every bending of physics and reason, then you become a cross between a fantasy writer and a parody writer. That is the sad truth. I read through your one-shot, and while reasonably well-written, there are numerous plot-holes and logic problems like this one here. A desert is often very cold at night, sometimes with temperatures near freezing. To have a desert boil at night is possible, but to validate it by simply saying that you write fantasy and are thus entitled to such bending of rules is not acceptable, no matter what you may say. You must have a plausible plot or environmental explanation. For example, if Tolkien were to have a boiling desert in the Sil or Unfinished Tales, and attribute it in a detailed manner to Morgoth's power and intentional will, then we would have a reason. Your story has a person walking through a desert, and provides no such validation. Also, what you did completely destroyed the laws of physics, Deserts have such temperatures not only due to the ease of loss and gain of heat by sand, but also due to pressure and other environmental factors. If you negate that without a reason, you insult a discerning reader's perception. Same with what we have here. A warrior with a sword is not going to stand a chance against many Pokemon, least of all a Legendary. It does not matter what factors are in his favour, for the story loses in every way. If said factor in warrior's favour does not debilitate, paralyse or reduce the legendaries to whimpering hamsters in the blink of an eye, a simply bombardment of elemental power would spell the end of that fight. You ever read about how artillery works in real life, and how they blanket an area with mortars? Same here. If said factor in warrior's favour does render the legendaries incapable of doing much to the warrior, ie kill him with one move, then you might as well have the warrior battle a fearsome teddy bear. Both ways, story loses.

Oh, and yes, if warrior has somehow received a momentous boost of power and owns all of them, then I would say that you have a gary stu on your hands. Either way, story loses, and there is nothing much to be argued with.

Kiyohime
26th November 2005, 6:52 AM
Or better yet-- compromise. No need to remove it...perhaps if Pokemon were used, the tables could be more even? Such as an army of Magneton surrounding the Suicune and connecting with each other's magnets to trap it in a sphere of Magnetons and severely damage it? Things like that could add plausibility.

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 6:59 AM
If pokemon were used, it would be more possible, of course, but that depends on Syra. From his adamant usage of a mere sword and not other more powerful artifacts, I drew my conclusion that he wanted mano a mano. You then have to take into consideration the situation he wants. He wants a situation in which a warrior gets toyed with by three legendaries, who are keener on playing cat and mouse rather than killing him. Would that seem possible with the warrior aided by a large number of pokemon. Do not forget the golden rule of hunting-- you only carry on when it is fun; when it is not, you pack up and go home. Same as what the US did in the Vietnam War. Legendaries are not going to screw around if they feel their own safety was compromised.

Ryano Ra
26th November 2005, 3:48 PM
Syra, I would advise the removal of the scene as well. It does not matter what genre you are writing, a story or a story element cannot verge on absurdity, ever. Well, unfortunately, this is especially true for fantasy. Seeing that you love fantasy so much, I find it hard to believe that you fail to gasp that concept. Fantasy is broadly defined as the usage of imaginary elements within a story. The unwritten rule about fantasy is that imagination is rooted within reality, such that your environment and setting is not completely alien, but a mix of what we would expect to see, and what we want to see.

For example, we do not see humans with wings very often in fantasies, because they are simply not bound to reality. Critters with powers are often those which are NOT grounded in reality, ie not present in our world, and thus can be attributed with said powers. Once you lose track of that concept, and believe that the notion of fantasy can explain every bending of physics and reason, then you become a cross between a fantasy writer and a parody writer. That is the sad truth. I read through your one-shot, and while reasonably well-written, there are numerous plot-holes and logic problems like this one here. A desert is often very cold at night, sometimes with temperatures near freezing. To have a desert boil at night is possible, but to validate it by simply saying that you write fantasy and are thus entitled to such bending of rules is not acceptable, no matter what you may say. You must have a plausible plot or environmental explanation. For example, if Tolkien were to have a boiling desert in the Sil or Unfinished Tales, and attribute it in a detailed manner to Morgoth's power and intentional will, then we would have a reason. Your story has a person walking through a desert, and provides no such validation. Also, what you did completely destroyed the laws of physics, Deserts have such temperatures not only due to the ease of loss and gain of heat by sand, but also due to pressure and other environmental factors. If you negate that without a reason, you insult a discerning reader's perception. Same with what we have here. A warrior with a sword is not going to stand a chance against many Pokemon, least of all a Legendary. It does not matter what factors are in his favour, for the story loses in every way. If said factor in warrior's favour does not debilitate, paralyse or reduce the legendaries to whimpering hamsters in the blink of an eye, a simply bombardment of elemental power would spell the end of that fight. You ever read about how artillery works in real life, and how they blanket an area with mortars? Same here. If said factor in warrior's favour does render the legendaries incapable of doing much to the warrior, ie kill him with one move, then you might as well have the warrior battle a fearsome teddy bear. Both ways, story loses.

Oh, and yes, if warrior has somehow received a momentous boost of power and owns all of them, then I would say that you have a gary stu on your hands. Either way, story loses, and there is nothing much to be argued with.First off, don't ever tell me that my 'story loses' because it doesn't in my opinion. I've learned that not everybody will enjoy my writing, and I have to deal with it. So, say whatever you want. >> The desert becoming hot is more of a fantasy touch, and there is realistic measures inside of the story. >> But, I guess you know so much about literature, but please, don't respond to me AT ALL because you will start an argument if you do. Sad to say, I can be a bit stubborn at times (Taurus sign, what can you expect?), but please, the desert part is nothing more than a fantasy touch. If you want realistic measures and actual evidence of this happening, then I could thoroughly explain this to you, when I have available time. ^^

Zero, assure me, I don't make sue characters. It may sound that way, but I've been writing stories for a long time, and I'm pretty sure I know how to craft a character without making them seem so sueish and powerful. I have very, very different opinions about legendaries that people will seem to never understand; I chose Raikou, Entei, and Suicune because they are very powerful, sure, but they should be able to take blows. But, I guess I understand what you guys mean. --; I just wanted to try to have a battle with man against legendary, with flaws in warrior and the legendary, but I guess I'll just have another pokemon battle them. Although, I guess that a Pokemon wouldn't last so long, either. -.-

So, would it appropriate if a legendary is attacking unsuccessfully? For example, instead of the warrior fighting, he's dodging the attacks (leaping around, flipping back) while the legendary is trying to land lethal blows, destroying the city in the process? Would that be more acceptable? I mean, I understand not landing blows, but can the warrior at least dodge the attacks?

Also, I was, at first, considering to either use the man and his Gyarados, or a group of Mantine (not infected by the virus) being of great assistance. I'm only throwing ideas around so when I write the eleventh chapter, I'll know what to write and how to write it.

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 4:17 PM
First off, don't ever tell me that my 'story loses' because it doesn't in my opinion. I've learned that not everybody will enjoy my writing, and I have to deal with it. So, say whatever you want. >> The desert becoming hot is more of a fantasy touch, and there is realistic measures inside of the story. >> But, I guess you know so much about literature, but please, don't respond to me AT ALL because you will start an argument if you do. Sad to say, I can be a bit stubborn at times (Taurus sign, what can you expect?), but please, the desert part is nothing more than a fantasy touch. If you want realistic measures and actual evidence of this happening, then I could thoroughly explain this to you, when I have available time. ^^

Hey champion, cool it. Along your train of thought, first off, do not tell me what I can or cannot say. Yes, it is your opinion, but surely you can find a better way to defend yourself by simply forcing me to keep silent, and imposing your opinion on this thread? If you peruse my post, you will quickly see that I did say it is possible in fantasy, but always with a legitimate reason. You do not bend a rule just because the genre is fantasy. Leave that to parody writers. Next time you see fish flying around in a novel without an explanation, do let me know.


So, would it appropriate if a legendary is attacking unsuccessfully? For example, instead of the warrior fighting, he's dodging the attacks (leaping around, flipping back) while the legendary is trying to land lethal blows, destroying the city in the process? Would that be more acceptable? I mean, I understand not landing blows, but can the warrior at least dodge the attacks?

It would be even worse. This, my friend, is NOT power rangers or godzilla, in which buildings crumble but there is no sign of any loss of life. You obviously failed to read my post or failed to understand it. I would forsee THREE legendaries attacking like a modern day military would utilise artillery. You try dodging radial attacks like that. Let me give you an example. Your three legendaries have attacks powerful enough to destroy a city. So what is going to happen is that either they carpet bomb your hero with attacks and finish him off at once, or you are trying to make your hero become superman. Anything which can level a city can kill a person easily, especially when you take the "area-of-effect" ramifications of those attacks.

I do not know, how would this relate to an argument? I have not said a single word in anger, and neither have I said anything which is unrelated to your work. It is constructive criticism, and if you feel that you cannot take such criticism, then feel free to let me know. Oh I am glad that you complimented my knowledge of literature, but that is not what I am using right now, but just pure common sense. Perhaps if you forget about your title of best fantasy writer, which I have seen you expound several times, and write as a normal person, and take criticism like you would expect a normal author to take from you (but then and again have not seen you reply to many fics besides those written by your friends and your own threads; we can forgive that, though), and apply the general standards of author acceptance, then you might improve a little more.

Ryano Ra
26th November 2005, 4:31 PM
o.o Trust me, I know I'm not the best fantasy writer. I simply call myself a fantasy writer, not the best. I think that's because nobody has read many fantasy stories around here 'cept mine, which clearly makes them think that I'm the 'one and only'. Trust me, if I was so happy about being the best fantasy writer, I would want to participate in the awards to see if I can get it again. I want others to shine besides myself because I know I have a long way to go. A VERY LONG way. And as for the reviewing, I don't usually have time to read many stories (I read Reflect, Sin, Two of a Kind, Communcation, Trial of Juno, The Ninetales' Curse, Choice and Consequence, and others. They are my friends, but some, I read nevertheless.) so that's why you don't see many reviews from me. I review upon request, though, too many equals to none, if you catch my drift.

For the one-shot segment part of the post, sorry, though sometimes I fail to understand with your many usage of words and vocabulary. o.o I do have a legitimate reason as to the whole deal with the temperature and night, I just didn't feel as though I needed to explain that thoroughly in my thread. Simply saying it is possible in fantasy what was I was thinking, though I have reasons for it. Again, sorry.

For the topic part, the eleventh chapter only deals with SUICUNE. The last chapters has all three, but for now, Suicune is by herself. I think that I should have explained more about the Slinx Insanity Virus and what it actually does to Pokemon, though I really wanted to use them and have them battle. So, basically, I should use Pokemon instead of humans?

Wandering Rhythmical Phoenix
26th November 2005, 5:57 PM
In Ties bound by Battle The legendaries are gods. 'They stay in 'The Untouchable Side' untill called upon by there 'Summoners'. Maybe I'm reveling too much. More or less the 'Untouchable Side' is a plane that humans should be unable to touch, yet curcumstances allow them to touch it long enough to pull a god from that side' (From Yuuki's explanition in CH6)

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 6:02 PM
For the one-shot segment part of the post, sorry, though sometimes I fail to understand with your many usage of words and vocabulary. o.o I do have a legitimate reason as to the whole deal with the temperature and night, I just didn't feel as though I needed to explain that thoroughly in my thread. Simply saying it is possible in fantasy what was I was thinking, though I have reasons for it. Again, sorry.

Relax, mate. Firstly, there is no need to apologise, when both of us are merely sounding off on opinions. I just wanted to point out that in fantasy, there should always be a reason, an order amongst chaos, if you will, and that is supposed to be woven into the story in a way that the reader does not notice such actions when they are present, while immediately feeling their absence when these actions are not taken. Again, it does not matter whether it is you or me, as everyone has something to improve on, and it is important to actually listen at times. Sometimes, I do think we learn more through listening than speaking.

As far as your battle goes, I would say adding pokemon does make it a tad more realistic, but I do not want to restrict your writing. write the way you want, and let us decide if you validate your own point.

Ryano Ra
26th November 2005, 6:35 PM
Oh yes, I would want to write how I would of the legendaries, but seeing as I've never written anything about them, it is an entirely different story.

I was thinking about just using the Pokemon instead, since they put up more of a challenge against legendaries, especially the beasts. I can also, especially, write Pokemon action better than a human fighting a legendary, and with the clan of Mantine and single Gyarados attempting to stop the maddened Suicune, that adds more realism. Thank you all for the comments, it has certainly helped me.

Elemental Charizam
26th November 2005, 6:44 PM
If he's just a normal human, it does seem rather implausible, but it depends how strong you make the legendaries. If you take from canon, legendaries are much weaker (at least the beasts) than most think. Example; Entei is almost bested by Ash's Charizard. Admittedly, Charizard is supposed to be very strong, though not the strongest evah or anything. And human/pokemon wars are feasible even with swords; when humans and pokemon clashed in the anime, they were both dead. Until Ho-oh ressurected them, that is. So a very well trained human with good (but not neccaserily magic) equipment wouldn't be at any more of a disadvantage than say Greek heroes when they faced Dragons and hordes of undead warriors. Another example is how one of the Twin Towers in Johto burns to the ground,killing the legandaries. Now, if they can be killed by a burning tower falling on top of them (they might have been sleeping, but still) then they aren't that godly powerful in the eyes of cannon.

By my own classing system, a Legendary Beast Bird, or Regi would be a Guardian Legendary; that is, they're associated with a specific area and mainly fufill their roles there. Not exceptionally powerful, like area specific legends (there is a reason for this, BTW).

There, I used logic in a argument. Scary.

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 6:55 PM
Well, Charizard hammered an Articuno as well, and it drew a lot of flak for lack of realism. Also, the anime standards are not applicable here. In the anime, Ash gets blackened by a flamethrower. In Syra's fic, I believe that a human is not supposed to get merely balckened as a result of a flamethrower. Using logic and reality, survival of a human is simply not possible, unless you are going to apply some crazy LOTR logic.

I would say that the best way is to use a pokemon, or a group, which would allow realism, draw fire away from the human, but without hurting the legendaries so badly they simply go for the kill.

Ryano Ra
26th November 2005, 7:01 PM
Very bold statement, EC. I was also thinking about the Anime as well when writing up this topic.

I just simply thought about using Pokemon (Gyarados and a group of Mantine) against the legendary, when actually, the legendary wants to stir chaos around and in the process, is ridding the land of people (humans). I think that is more of a realistic measure while still holding some sort of mystery to it.

Elemental Charizam
26th November 2005, 7:07 PM
Well, canon is the base of pokemon. If you stick to it you need no justifications; it's only deviations that need explaining. They set the standard of strength; however strong they say legendaries are is the base, standard strength of that legendary. Is it realistic a pokemon is only charred by a flamethrower? Not really; so it might just be a cartoon thing and we overestimate pokemon strength. Or maybe humans have adpated to resist the elemental powers of pokemon?

You can't say the makers got their own strength wrong; there is no inconsistency seen in individual legendary strength, so why quibble? Sure, you could represent them as more powerful, but you are the one who'd need to justify that, not the other way around.

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 7:19 PM
Is it realistic that a pokemon is only charred by a flamethrower? Why not? Indeed, evolution plays a part in everything. These creatures obviously live to battle, and thus it is not inexplicable to reason that they have certain attributes that afford them better protection than a human's skin.

So, if the strength of legendaries is set in stone, why then are so many people debating about this, not just here but in other threads elsewhere on this forum as well? The fact is that what we have is a rough hierarchy, and nothing else. The notion of power is never fully explained in the anime, and with good reason. When you yourelf question and explain your own reasoning as to what a rough gauge of a legendary's power would be, I would guess that you should understand the futility. You use Ash's Charizard to gauge how strong an Entei would be, and various pokemon myths to validate Johto's Pokemon legends. Are any of those solid representations? If I were to say that I would not be able to beat Heracles in a wrestling match, would that put me on the same relative power base as Cerberus or one of the many critters he bests? Going by your definition, which can be extrapolated into rock-paper-scissors logic, would Haunter be stronger than Pikachu because it beat an opponent that Pikachu got hammered by, a Kadabra? What we have is only a rough hierarchy, and until something is set in stone, nothing more can be said.


Sure, you could represent them as more powerful, but you are the one who'd need to justify that, not the other way around.

Back to my point. How do you define "more powerful" when you do not know what to set as your benchmark for power? It is not like current, for which we have the Ampere, and so on. When facts fail, logic prevails, and logic tells me that if you were to use the anime solely for justification, you would have sadly missed the point.

Elemental Charizam
26th November 2005, 7:35 PM
Well, if you could give Heracles a good competition in a wrestling match, then it'd be fair to say you're probably somewhere on the level of Cerebruus ect, assuming both of you fought fairly directly. As Charizard and Entei are both fire types, then I think it is basically a matter of power; how physically strong they are and how well they can fight. For this purpose, that's my definition of Power.

Haunter WAS ore powerful than Pikachu; it bested it easily. Though we could attribute this to the fact Pikachu knows nothing about Haunters, those are the only sort of parts I can really see that you can debate here.

Or simply by your own argument, there aren't really any pre-set strengths, so you can decide on what you want within reason. So Syra could set the legendary strength to what he wants. Its only the Slinx insanity virus that drives them to this anyway, so that nulls out the 'How would they survive without being really powerful?' question (answer, they are normally elusive). The speed of the beasts implies that flightis their first choice anyway. Perhaps because they can't stand against masses of human troops? That has logic too.

There, the anime is no longer my sole justification.

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 7:45 PM
Well, let me change my words a little. Let us say that I was absolutely obliterated by Heracles. Let us also safely say that the world's strongest man was also annihilated by Heracles, both beaten in the blink of an eye. The hierarchy of power is thus thrown off balance.

Sabrina's Kadabra pwned Pikachu, but lost convincingly to Haunter. You willing to say that Pikachu would get trounced even worse by Haunter?


Or simply by your own argument, there aren't really any pre-set strengths, so you can decide on what you want within reason. So Syra could set the legendary strength to what he wants. Its only the Slinx insanity virus that drives them to this anyway, so that nulls out the 'How would they survive without being really powerful?' question (answer, they are normally elusive). The speed of the beasts implies that flightis their first choice anyway. Perhaps because they can't stand against masses of human troops? That has logic too.

Out of context right there. My argument is that there are no power levels that can be defined, as you would have us belive from your previous post, while the only thing we have is a hierarchy of power. Your point is that you defined power levels using comparison from the anime, and I argued against that point, because it is not possible to define. A lack of boundaries in writing does not always mean that a writer takes liberties, and I am sure that when you read through your post about Syra defining power levels on his own, you will find that it is equivalent to telling him that personal definition, without regard to logic, is fine.

Before you lose track of the issue and merely attempt to counter my points, notice that I have been steering you back on track. your first arguments were about pokemon nearly besting legendaries, and a couple of anime myths about legendary deaths. My arguments were against those points, while your subsequent reply was a rebuttal of my points, without referencing the motion at hand. Let us not have this go OOP.

Kiyohime
26th November 2005, 7:58 PM
*tilts head* Kadabra? Wow, I thought it was Abra. o.o I keep mixing up the manga with the anime. XD

Let's not have this go out of hand. People have conflicting opinions about differences between the legendaries in the game, the anime, and the manga.

There's a good example in the Regirocks-- in the anime and the game, they're only slightly taller than the average human, but in the manga, all three are VAST, about the size of skyscrapers.

In Pokemon 2: The Movie, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres were raising MAJOR hell, and managed to almost down Lugia, yet separately they're about the same as normal trained Pokemon, if the episodes with Charizard show anything. Same with how the Beasts had that energy field in the manga.

It's differences like that that allows space for writers to bend the canon, if one doesn't watch the anime and reads tha manga, or plays only the games, and so on.

Elemental Charizam
26th November 2005, 8:01 PM
Actually, I was saying that pokemon were basically able to at least come close to defeating legendaries mano-mano. And as humans have killed pokemon, it can't be that farfetched for one to defeat a weakned legend. Those were my points and I clearly pointed out HOW THEY RELATED TO THE TOPIC.

And though the top half of my last post was against the points you raised to rebut mine, that still relates back in some way. And the last was totally new points about how a human could face a legendary.

You are the one going OOP by mentioning OOPness as a way to restrict the debate, IMO.

And no, I did say that because there were no type (dis)advantages in that battle that Entei/Charizard was a good example of power. But as there are typeadvantages in Haunter vs Kadabra... Plus that was a battle won by wits in any case (laughter).


A lack of boundaries in writing does not always mean that a writer takes liberties, and I am sure that when you read through your post about Syra defining power levels on his own, you will find that it is equivalent to telling him that personal definition, without regard to logic, is fine.
I said within reason, AND provided logic for it as well.

Ouallada
26th November 2005, 8:18 PM
Actually, I was saying that pokemon were basically able to at least come close to defeating legendaries mano-mano. And as humans have killed pokemon, it can't be that farfetched for one to defeat a weakned legend. Those were my points and I clearly pointed out HOW THEY RELATED TO THE TOPIC.

You will quickly realise that I, being literate, can actually understand what you wrote, and that there is little need to shout, huh. My question relating to that particular portion of the post was how you were actually going to equate "nearly beating" with power levels. Go anywhere else and you quickly realise that Charizard's defeat of Articuno was condemned by many as simply unrealistic, which shores up the opinion that there is a hierarchy, but until you can define a pokemon's absolute power, there is little to be argued about on that point.


And though the top half of my last post was against the points you raised to rebut mine, that still relates back in some way. And the last was totally new points about how a human could face a legendary.

While you wil realise that my points related directly back to the topic at hand, your points related back "in some way", which pointedly is through the attempt to rebut my points, and thus infer an indirect link.


You are the one going OOP by mentioning OOPness as a way to restrict the debate, IMO.

Ah, here comes the opinionated viewpoint again. I would ask you to look and see whether your points relate more directly or mine. Asking one to keep within the boundaries or a discussion is not going out of point, and neither is it restriction. There is a reason why debators restrict themselves, and why they attempt not to venture too far away from the topic.


And no, I did say that because there were no type (dis)advantages in that battle that Entei/Charizard was a good example of power.

The notion of type advantage is horribly misused, Ash has made a career of going against type, and it is not anything like in the games. However, assuming it was a good example of power. How so? Do you know exactly how strong Charizard is right now, on its own? The only inference you draw is from your logical perception of Entei's strength, and fitting Charizard into that area. So, if another pokemon, like a certain Poliwrath, trounces Charizard, are you then going to conclude that the Poliwrath would be placed above Entei? Let us be logical here.


I said within reason, AND provided logic for it as well.

Your saying that you were within reason does not answer the topic of whether your allowance of Syra to draw his own boundaries is beneficial or not.

All in all, the final say lies with Syra, and that is the way it should be. Charizam, take any issue with me through PM. this is a topic on a battle scene, not a debate between the two of us. Of course, if you want to continue, it is fine by me by any stretch of the imagination.

Elemental Charizam
26th November 2005, 8:38 PM
My whole point was basically that it was Syra's choice to do what he wanted, because everyone was pretty much saying it couldn't be done. If you think you can do it Syra, go ahead. It sounds interesting to me.

Kiyohime
26th November 2005, 8:59 PM
Hey, hey, I'm all for Syra's ideas, but I don't want him to get attacked for having a human fend off Suicune with a sword so I'm suggesting additional help. :P

Ryano Ra
26th November 2005, 9:23 PM
Hey, hey, I'm all for Syra's ideas, but I don't want him to get attacked for having a human fend off Suicune with a sword so I'm suggesting additional help. :PYes, yes, that is all true. Although I can do whatever I want, I want to do something that's fun for both me and my fellow reviewers/readers. That is why I wanted to post this up; so I could gather many views and different opinions about it so I can make a final decision. I'm still contemplative over the entire issue, though I'm pretty much convinced that I will be instead substituting the human for his Gyarados and a group of Mantine battling against Suicune.

However, for a future reference, is there any kind of being (that isn't a sue), that isn't a Pokemon, that can actually fight against any of the legendary beasts?

Dilasc
26th November 2005, 9:29 PM
A strong myth in Japanese legends is that through great training, one can harness their energy and gain super human strength. I know, it sounds a bit cliche and stupid, I know, but it could explain a way that men and women can fight legendaries logically.

In Dust to Deceit, there is a gym dedicated to Muay Thrai (Muay Thai with a spoofy name,) and there, not only the Pokemon are solid muscle and swift of limb, but the humans are too. In fact, the Gym leader wishes to one day travel the world in search of legendary beasts to spar with them one on one, even if it costs him his life.

Elemental Charizam
26th November 2005, 9:30 PM
IMO, yes. A thermonuclear device would sort them out :p

But seriously, Legendaries don't have to be the only powerful beings. I'll hopefully be doing a fic which culminates in the chosen of a god battling it out against a legendary pokémon...

Zerodius
26th November 2005, 10:44 PM
About fighting Legendary Pokemon as a whole...

Unless your character is a very powerful Pokemon or unless the Legendary Pokemon is portrayed as just an above-average Pokemon (I TOTALLY despise that view because that if the Legendary Pokemon are just a bit stronger than, say, common Charizards... then they are totally, completely unworthy of the legends surrounding them... which doesn't please me at all), then know that fighting Legendary Pokemon one-on-one using conventionnal weaponry is a no-no.

You want to fight someone who can smash down entire cities with a thought? Then bring equipment good enough to compare to that type of power. End of story. There is no "but". Fighting one-on-one someone who is clearly overpowered without a way of handling that someone's power and not getting 0wn3d is completely, totally stupid... and that does not apply only to Legendary Pokemon.

It's like if a beginner trainer, just after obtaining his first Pokemon, defeated the supreme Champion of the Pokemon League when he was fighting at full power.

I mean... come on! Common sense, anyone?

Well, that was my opinion.

Kiyohime
27th November 2005, 3:55 AM
Since we're now talking about power in terms of training, I want to ask this question to gain advice for my furute story (Dust):

Would readers accept a trainer and/or a pokemon that had attained a transcended level of fighting? I'm talking Naruto-- there's a character, (forgot his name, think it was Kakeshi?) that could easily fend off his pupil with ONE hand while reading a book in the other hand.

However, this power would only be slowly developed after centuries (yes, CENTURIES. XD This person and their Pokemon are, shall we say, long-lived), with much hard work, and frustration.

Sounds cliche, right? BUT we're talking the teacher forcing her pupil to run up a mountain with two buckets of water on a pole over her shoulders UP AND DOWN the stairs of the mountain WITHOUT SPILLING A DROP, and if it was spilt, she'd have to do it again...and do that every day. I daresay that type of training would snap someone into shape FAST. XD

Still, would that be too farfetched for readers to take? o.o;

xXSaberXx
27th November 2005, 3:58 AM
LAWL NARUTO IS TEH SECKS.

*ahem* Moving on.

Its Kakashi, btw. Luff. But then again, he's 1337 ninja whereas his 'student', Naruto was suckz. xPPPPPP;;;

I could totally find that beliveable, with the buckets and all. Depends on what 'her' attitude is to do it. HYPER ABOUT IT?! Then no. xP It makes her...erm...Stu ish, and I know you would NEVER do a stu. xP

Kiyohime
27th November 2005, 4:05 AM
She's being forced to on threat of death. XDDDDD So, no, DEFINITELY not happy about it. Plus, the teacher'll actually try to punch or kick her and she has to dodge it.

It sounds far-fetched, but hopefully it makes sense. o.o;; I'm sort of doing things a little like Naruto because it involves a lot of ninja and martial-arts style stuff. Saber, repeat after me, "Students of Koga's Gym are sexy." XD

Dilasc
27th November 2005, 5:27 AM
Why of WHY do you have to call your story Dust?

Regardless, as with most Japanese stuff, human training of pushing one's very soul, and meditating to the point that they can focus their life energy into pure power is not unheard of, if maybe a bit cliche, if I may say so. With such dedicated training, ludicrous super human capabilities can be breached, and beyond!

Kiyohime
27th November 2005, 5:36 AM
WTF? The English language's free, and I had the name decided LONG before I read your fanficiton. --;; I also think it's got a different implication than yours. Relax. XD

Not super-human strength, for that'd have been cliched...but I am primarily thinknig of speed here. XP Oh well, everything should work itself out. XD

Ryano Ra
27th November 2005, 6:23 PM
About fighting Legendary Pokemon as a whole...

Unless your character is a very powerful Pokemon or unless the Legendary Pokemon is portrayed as just an above-average Pokemon (I TOTALLY despise that view because that if the Legendary Pokemon are just a bit stronger than, say, common Charizards... then they are totally, completely unworthy of the legends surrounding them... which doesn't please me at all), then know that fighting Legendary Pokemon one-on-one using conventionnal weaponry is a no-no.

You want to fight someone who can smash down entire cities with a thought? Then bring equipment good enough to compare to that type of power. End of story. There is no "but". Fighting one-on-one someone who is clearly overpowered without a way of handling that someone's power and not getting 0wn3d is completely, totally stupid... and that does not apply only to Legendary Pokemon.

It's like if a beginner trainer, just after obtaining his first Pokemon, defeated the supreme Champion of the Pokemon League when he was fighting at full power.

I mean... come on! Common sense, anyone?

Well, that was my opinion.Yeah, common sense. Perhaps you should read my other posts as well. --; I said that I would just have the insane Suicune fight the main character's Gyarados, along with a group of wild Mantine and/or group of wild Ampharos. It all depends.

Towards Scrap's question, you know, you described that scene and one thing came to my mind; Kill Bill Volume 2, when Beatrix (Uma Thurman) walked up and down a mountain staircase with buckets on their shoulders and such. I'd say that kind of training would be very, very acceptable. ^^ Trascendent training. ^^

Ok I must disappear and read my historical novel now bye bye. ^^