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klducks
22nd December 2005, 5:28 PM
http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/alpha/living_artifact.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/4e/living_artifact.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/5e/living_artifact.jpg
Living Artifact - Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Revised, 4th, 5th Edition. Rare
G: Enchant Artifact
Put a counter on target artifact for each life you lose. During upkeep you may trade one counter for one life, but you can only trade in one counter each turn.
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Put a vitality counter on Living Artifact for each damage dealt to you.
0: During your upkeep, remove a vitality counter to gain 1 life. Remove only one vitality counter during each of your upkeeps.
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For each 1 damage dealt to you, put a vitality counter on Living Artifact.
Remove a vitality counter from Living Artifact: Gain 1 life. Use this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.


I'd hate to pull this if I ever bought an Alpha/ Beta pack. This card is just downright bad. First of all, you'd need an artifact to play this. That in itself can make it hard to play. Second of all, 1 life each turn? Why not just play Wurm's Tooth or something if you want slow life gain. This is just a bad card, plain and simple.

The Duck's Rating: 1/5

Shadow Trainer
22nd December 2005, 6:22 PM
Ya this is just really bad, enchanting an artifact is hard unless you run alot of them and then you waste your mana to enchant the artifact with this, for what one life per turn I'll pass. Sun Droplet>This. 1/5

TenteiKarite
22nd December 2005, 7:19 PM
It may be bad now, but it wasn't back when Living Artifact was released.
I'm wondering why you're comparing it to newer, better cards, when it's obvious that things have changed a lot.
besides, it's not legal in very many formats.
3/5 Limited
1/5 Casual.
Play sun droplet over this in casual (although Living Artifact on a sun droplet could be interesting...)
;059;

klducks
22nd December 2005, 8:03 PM
It may be bad now, but it wasn't back when Living Artifact was released.
I'm wondering why you're comparing it to newer, better cards, when it's obvious that things have changed a lot.
besides, it's not legal in very many formats.
3/5 Limited
1/5 Casual.
Play sun droplet over this in casual (although Living Artifact on a sun droplet could be interesting...)
;059;

Okay, you have a point about comparing new to old cards. However, rating it a 3/5 in limited is wrong. In limited, why would you draft all artifacts just to try to utilize this card and all it does is life gain? If it was in the Mirrodin set, I guess it's okay, but it's not.

Either way, there are better G mana cost cards for limited like Carapace, Fog, Giant Growth, Llanowar Elves, Scavenger Folk, Scryb Sprites, or even Shrink, Stream of Life, Wall of Wood, and Wild Growth. And those are just commons. Granted, some of these you shouldn't pick over even Living Artifact, but there should be plenty of other good picks if the rare is still in there.

chaoslord
22nd December 2005, 10:03 PM
Yall miss the MAIN reason its bad.

It's an Aura.

And while, as was pointed out, Sun Droplet > This, both cards suck. So does the mentioend Wurm's Tooth.

However, I would agree it's better in limited. Not a 3, but a 2. Reason being, Limited Edition limted is..well, very unbalanced. Trench wars are more likely than not going to occur a lot. This card goes up to a two in limited.

So, to basically break down everything I said:
Limited: 2/5
Everything else: 1/5

TenteiKarite
22nd December 2005, 10:52 PM
And while, as was pointed out, Sun Droplet > This, both cards suck. So does the mentioend Wurm's Tooth.

that's where you're wrong.
In an Ageless Entity Deck, Wurm's tooth and Sun Droplet are manditory.
Sun Droplet in multiples is good for Affinity decks, as they help ease the impact of a big hit.
(you get hit for 8, with 4 sun droplets out. you can gain 4 of that back on your turn, and another 4 back on theirs, and still have 6 counters on Each. Now tell me that isn't evil.)
Every card is good in some deck, which is precisely why I rated Living Artifact a 3/5 in limited.
;059;

klducks
22nd December 2005, 11:26 PM
Are you talking Limited or Constructed?...

TenteiKarite
22nd December 2005, 11:31 PM
Are you talking Limited or Constructed?...
either.
I have no idea what types of decks people can make with it in limited, but I'm sure they'll be relatively good.
I was using examples from Casual Constructed to counteract Chaoslord's argument that both Wurm's tooth and Sun Droplet suck.
;059;

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 12:08 AM
that's where you're wrong.
In an Ageless Entity Deck, Wurm's tooth and Sun Droplet are manditory.
Sun Droplet in multiples is good for Affinity decks, as they help ease the impact of a big hit.
(you get hit for 8, with 4 sun droplets out. you can gain 4 of that back on your turn, and another 4 back on theirs, and still have 6 counters on Each. Now tell me that isn't evil.)
Every card is good in some deck, which is precisely why I rated Living Artifact a 3/5 in limited.
;059;


Doesn't change the fact the cards suck.

Its like One With Nothing. I like that card. It can have decks built around it and is abusable. It still sucks.

Kaizer
23rd December 2005, 12:48 AM
Ok... how can you guys not get that this card is horrible- In almost every possible way at that.

Everyone keeps comparing this to Sun Droplet: a card that is very similar to this one. Sun Droplet addmittedly sucks; everyone agrees on this. Ok, so how does a card that has the same effect as Sun Droplet, costs a colored mana, and is an aura targetting ONLY artifacts even comparable to it? Not only is this card disadvantage from the two-for-oneing standard, but it's LIFE GAIN.

Card disadvantage+life gain+aura =/= anywhere near good
It actually equals somewhere below zero, but only Mike Flores is allowed to rate cards in the negatives, so that doesn't work out very well.


Moving on to the "other" stuff. Want to know what else is used in an Ageless Entity deck? Life Gain, that's what. When was the last time you saw life gain used in a good deck and not in the form of a Jitte? Yeah, that's right. You didn't. Now, if an ageless entity deck requires horrible cards to win, what does that tell you about the deck?

Moving on some more: You're right, this card could be decent in limited, except you're ignoring several key problems. First of all, this is a rare. Second of all, artifacts are almost always uncommon or rare. Thirdly, card disadvantage in limited can be fatal. Wasting a precious slot (two even) in your forty card deck will often be a fatal mistake.

Ok, that should've refuted every possible good thing about this card so the rating: .05/5
;245;

TenteiKarite
23rd December 2005, 1:01 AM
When was the last time you saw life gain used in a good deck and not in the form of a Jitte? Yeah, that's right. You didn't. Now, if an ageless entity deck requires horrible cards to win, what does that tell you about the deck?
I'd appreciate it if you spoke for yourself, that way, it'd save you the trouble of looking stupid.
I have seen at least 5 out of the top 15 players at my store use either Ageless Entity decks, Searing Meditation decks, or Elf decks focusing on making the opponent scoop, and my shop isn't the only one they play at. they play at their other shops, and do fairly well, pissing people off by having 3 digit life totals (the Entity decks have...well, the entities to back up that 100+ life, while the Searing Meditation decks widen the gap between players life even further. I've seen{and played with} elf decks that consistantly get up to 1000 life.)
Life gain isn't bad, it's actually a viable way to stall (if it's massive enough) or prevent one from losing by having 0 life.
Life gain decks are just branded as bad, because some Magic "celebrities" said so. people need to think for themselves, this being a prime example.

it only sucks because you've been told it sucks.
;059;

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 1:36 AM
I'd appreciate it if you spoke for yourself, that way, it'd save you the trouble of looking stupid.


I have seen at least 5 out of the top 15 players at my store....

Life gain isn't bad....

He's much smarter than you when it comes to the game, obv.

AT YOUR STORE are the keywords there. At my school, my friends rat deck is awesome. Does that mean its good? NO.

Also, life gain is bad. Heres why: Infinite damage beats infinite life. no matter HOW much life you gain, you can still lose, because you have to chose a finite number. And if you deck, your lifetotal doesnt matter.

Wellwisher can be good. Sun droplet? Wurms tooth? no.

I also have a friend who runs a G/W cleric deck with 4x ageless entity's. i cant remember the time it ever won a game.

Kaizer
23rd December 2005, 1:44 AM
I'd appreciate it if you spoke for yourself, that way, it'd save you the trouble of looking stupid.
I have seen at least 5 out of the top 15 players at my store use either Ageless Entity decks, Searing Meditation decks, or Elf decks focusing on making the opponent scoop, and my shop isn't the only one they play at. they play at their other shops, and do fairly well, pissing people off by having 3 digit life totals (the Entity decks have...well, the entities to back up that 100+ life, while the Searing Meditation decks widen the gap between players life even further. I've seen{and played with} elf decks that consistantly get up to 1000 life.)
Life gain isn't bad, it's actually a viable way to stall (if it's massive enough) or prevent one from losing by having 0 life.
Life gain decks are just branded as bad, because some Magic "celebrities" said so. people need to think for themselves, this being a prime example.

it only sucks because you've been told it sucks.
;059;

So you're calling me a sheep basically?
I don't know where you play, but in the shops in my area, life gain is non-existant. Those decks you just spoke of don't exist because they're not fast enough or not effective enough.

And don't think that I say life gain sucks just because some other players said it did. I just recently started giving a damn about the "big leagues" of magic. I was taught to play by friends and experimented with all sorts of decks, many of which used life gain, before I realized myself that those cards got me no where.

I'll tell you what though, one of my most successful limited decks ever focused around a life gain/stall combo and I still think it sucks because it wasn't the life gain that was really winning me the game, it was the eight life a turn, plus the constant threat of me nuking the field if they got a bomb out, and an unstoppable wall of creatures. Even then, all the life was was insurance. Insurance doesn't win games, it's a backup plan and that's all life gain really is; a backup plan.
So don't go around saying I'm making myself look stupid for calling lifegain decks and those decks you mentioned bad, because never in my life have I seen one of those decks turn out successful.
;245;

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 1:48 AM
Our friends elf deck though Kaizer?

was pretty good, could gain infinite life.

it won by playing out everything in it or hitting for insane numbers. life gain didnt win for it.

TenteiKarite
23rd December 2005, 2:28 AM
So you're calling me a sheep basically?
I don't know where you play, but in the shops in my area, life gain is non-existant. Those decks you just spoke of don't exist because they're not fast enough or not effective enough.

And don't think that I say life gain sucks just because some other players said it did. I just recently started giving a damn about the "big leagues" of magic. I was taught to play by friends and experimented with all sorts of decks, many of which used life gain, before I realized myself that those cards got me no where.

I'll tell you what though, one of my most successful limited decks ever focused around a life gain/stall combo and I still think it sucks because it wasn't the life gain that was really winning me the game, it was the eight life a turn, plus the constant threat of me nuking the field if they got a bomb out, and an unstoppable wall of creatures. Even then, all the life was was insurance. Insurance doesn't win games, it's a backup plan and that's all life gain really is; a backup plan.
So don't go around saying I'm making myself look stupid for calling lifegain decks and those decks you mentioned bad, because never in my life have I seen one of those decks turn out successful.
;245;

i didn't say you were making yourself look stupid for dissing LG decks. I said you were making yourself look stupid by saying that I've never seen a competitive Life-gain deck, and I have.
every Life-based deck I've seen has won not deliberately through life-gain, but from the life gain helping some other aspect of the deck, i.e. Searing Meditation, Entity, ect.
the way my friends have built their decks is so that they can get mana early on, to cast SM/AE, and gain life from there, tearing the opponent to shreds, and using the life gain as a cushion.
Life gain CAN win you games (mass gain elf decks) through stall or pissing the opponent off, and making them scoop. LG is mandatory for a few decks, and for others, it can help prevent losing.
I know for a fact that, despite what other players may say about LG decks, they ARE effective, as long as they can either gain mass quantities of it, or have something to play off of the LG.

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 2:35 AM
i didn't say you were making yourself look stupid for dissing LG decks. I said you were making yourself look stupid by saying that I've never seen a competitive Life-gain deck, and I have.



ProsBloom is the only competitive lifegain deck i can think of, and I think that didnt even care about life gain, so much as the Drain Lifing. What have you seen?

also, nice way to contradict yourself:

"every Life-based deck I've seen has won not deliberately through life-gain"

and

"Life gain CAN win you games"

thing is, life gain sucks. the end. it always has, and always will. it is a cushion, yes, but if youre running a deck that must take life gain to win, then good luck.

BTW, elf is not an example. elf can gain life, but its not a life gain based deck. elf basically says "hahahahaha, we have infinite mana, we do what we want with it. thank you staff of domination."

Kaizer
23rd December 2005, 2:46 AM
Okay, first of all, by "you" I meant the "you" as in multiples and not targetting a specific person, but as in everyone. So, when was the last time someone saw a competetive life gain deck. I'm not talking about your play area, I'm talking about real magic.

In real magic, you just don't see those life gain cards. Loxodon Heirarch is used, but not for the life. The life it is nice, but a 4/4 for 4 that sacs to regenerate your creatures is why people use it, no one really cares about the 4 life; it's just a little by-product.

Oh, and in that statement up there, that's what you just said basically. The straight fact is this: There is no possible way that life gain can "win" you the game. It's a straight fact of the game. You win by taking life or by decking somebody. You don't win by gaining life and that's what makes it truely obsolete. It can help you stall, but you can't stall forever, and sooner or later they'll get past you.

Oh, and if your life gain gets you through the first game, good luck in game two where people use a little invention called the "sideboard" where they put in cards to break up your strategy.
;245;

TenteiKarite
23rd December 2005, 4:33 AM
There is no possible way that life gain can "win" you the game.

3 words.
Test of Endurance.

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 4:36 AM
3 words.
Test of Endurance.

So, the enchantment wins the game

TenteiKarite
23rd December 2005, 4:38 AM
So, the enchantment wins the game
as a direct result of having 50 or more life, thus, life gain wins games.
;059;

Kaizer
23rd December 2005, 4:41 AM
So, the enchantment wins the game

And once again, the life is a mere by-product of the win because you gaining life was unable to deal lethal damage or deck out your opponent.

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 4:42 AM
as a direct result of having 50 or more life, thus, life gain wins games.
;059;

ok. so, if i play a variant and start with 60 life, i have to gain life to win? nope.

its the triggered ability of the enchantment that wins the game, not life gain.

TenteiKarite
23rd December 2005, 4:45 AM
And once again, the life is a mere by-product of the win because you gaining life was unable to deal lethal damage or deck out your opponent.
you are missing the point.
you said that life gain doesn't win games.
Test of Endurance can't win without life gain, Life gain is necessary for ToE to work. ToE wins, but, as stated before, it NEEDS life gain to do so. Life gain causes ToE to win =Life gain wins (in a ToE deck)
;059;

chaoslord
23rd December 2005, 4:47 AM
you are missing the point.
you said that life gain doesn't win games.
Test of Endurance can't win without life gain, Life gain is necessary for ToE to work. ToE wins, but, as stated before, it NEEDS life gain to do so. Life gain causes ToE to win =Life gain wins (in a ToE deck)
;059;

and you missed MY point.

ive been known to play variants with crazy starting life totals, such as 60.

at 60 life, no life gain is required

klducks
23rd December 2005, 4:49 AM
you are missing the point.
you said that life gain doesn't win games.
Test of Endurance can't win without life gain, Life gain is necessary for ToE to work. ToE wins, but, as stated before, it NEEDS life gain to do so. Life gain causes ToE to win =Life gain wins (in a ToE deck)
;059;
Thats like saying, oh lets say 4 Lava Axes can't win without mana. Mana is necessary.

Test of Endurance wins games, compared to 4 Lava Axes.

Life is compared to Mana.

Mana wins you games?

Kaizer
23rd December 2005, 5:12 AM
Thank you klducks, that's basically what Chaos and I have been trying to say.

Test of Endurance causes Test of Endurance wins the game. It asks for extra life, but having that extra life doesn't do you much good without Test of Endurance. In this case, the life is like mana. You need mana to play things to win the game- the same way you need at least one life to not lose the game. Any extra life and you still haven't won or lost the game. It may be helpful, but there is no way that it will win you the game.
An ability on a card that asks for a requirement does not mean that fulfilling the requirement wins the game.

Once again, thanks for putting it like that klducks. That's exactly what we're trying to say.
;245;