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Thread: Pokémon - The Johto League (03,04,05)

  1. #51
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    Master Quest was the only really decent part of Johto. You can tell the writers at least acknowledged how dull the first two Johto seasons were and decided to focused more on mini arcs again. Also bringing back Ash's Kanto starters helped.

    I can't help but look back at Johto now 10 year later and think about how different it could have been. But as they say, "what is done, is done." It's been 10 years since the end of this arc, everyones thoughts on it have already been cemented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Master Quest was the only really decent part of Johto. You can tell the writers at least acknowledged how dull the first two Johto seasons were and decided to focused more on mini arcs again. Also bringing back Ash's Kanto starters helped.
    Master Quest was actually great as season. Misty received some great screen time and development there, we got several great arcs(such as Whirl Cup, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc). THere were interesting mini arcs with gym leadrs such as Clair and DRagon temple revolving around Dragon tooth and sacred fire.

    Johto Silver Coneference was fntastic too concluding AShxGary rivalry and departure between original cast was one of most emotional and beautifly done momnts we had in pokemon.

    AS for rest of Johto while i wont deny how there were quite a few dull episodes, there were also several really enjoyable ones recommending to everyone to watch them. Such as "Fortune Hunters", "Hook, Line and Stinker", "Beauty and the Breeder", "Sick Daze", "Ring Masters"etc(list continues).

    Johto had some reall good things about it.

    I can't help but look back at Johto now 10 year later and think about how different it could have been. But as they say, "what is done, is done." It's been 10 years since the end of this arc, everyones thoughts on it have already been cemented.
    Im not sure why you speak in everyone name, because there are many fans which liked Johto.

    If Johto was really that detrimental original series wouldnt be so popular with majority being able to overlook negative things liking this era of pokemon because of its good things. And there were many of them with Ash,Misty and BRock being to this day most popular and iconic group.Demand for reunion speaks for itself.

    Not to mention it was with original trio when pokemon was at its peak of popularity.
    Yes you can argue how ratings started to decline in mid Johto but that was on large part because fad started to die out. Nothing can last forever so it was to expect that people will eventually grew up and move to other things.Poor writing and too many fillers didnt helped things either.

    Decline in ratings would have happened in Hoenn or DP too if that was period when initial hype and fad started to diminish.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Master Quest was actually great as season. Misty received some great screen time and development there, we got several great arcs(such as Whirl Cup, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc). THere were interesting mini arcs with gym leadrs such as Clair and DRagon temple revolving around Dragon tooth and sacred fire.

    Johto Silver Coneference was fntastic too concluding AShxGary rivalry and departure between original cast was one of most emotional and beautifly done momnts we had in pokemon.

    AS for rest of Johto while i wont deny how there were quite a few dull episodes, there were also several really enjoyable ones recommending to everyone to watch them. Such as "Fortune Hunters", "Hook, Line and Stinker", "Beauty and the Breeder", "Sick Daze", "Ring Masters"etc(list continues).

    Johto had some reall good things about it.



    Im not sure why you speak in everyone name, because there are many fans which liked Johto.

    If Johto was really that detrimental original series wouldnt be so popular with majority being able to overlook negative things liking this era of pokemon because of its good things. And there were many of them with Ash,Misty and BRock being to this day most popular and iconic group.Demand for reunion speaks for itself.

    Not to mention it was with original trio when pokemon was at its peak of popularity.
    Yes you can argue how ratings started to decline in mid Johto but that was on large part because fad started to die out. Nothing can last forever so it was to expect that people will eventually grew up and move to other things.Poor writing and too many fillers didnt helped things either.

    Decline in ratings would have happened in Hoenn or DP too if that was period when initial hype and fad started to diminish.
    I don't know why you look at ratings to judge the quality of a series. That's not smart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    I don't know why you look at ratings to judge the quality of a series. That's not smart.
    You misunderstood. I used ratings to point out how reason why interest among viewers dropped in mid Johto wasn't because of original trio being used as some like to think but because of several factors with initial hype and fad pokemon used to have not being expected to last forever.

    When it comes to me i could care less how big ratings are for specific region because i evaluate how enjoyable certain saga is by quality of episodes themselves, how good interaction between characters is and how much development it contains.

    I never pay attention to other opinions forming my own view about series or characters and personally i can say i liked more about Johto than disliked. It had many fun episodes, original trio still felt like friends sharing close bond with Misty getting some important growth and all those mini arcs, battles etc were in most cases of high quality.
    Johto has many hidden gems about it not recommending anyone to skip it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    You misunderstood. I used ratings to point out how reason why interest among viewers dropped in mid Johto wasn't because of original trio being used as some like to think but because of several factors with initial hype and fad pokemon used to have not being expected to last forever.

    When it comes to me i could care less how big ratings are for specific region because i evaluate how enjoyable certain saga is by quality of episodes themselves, how good interaction between characters is and how much development it contains.

    I never pay attention to other opinions forming my own view about series or characters and personally i can say i liked more about Johto than disliked. It had many fun episodes, original trio still felt like friends sharing close bond with Misty getting some important growth and all those mini arcs, battles etc were in most cases of high quality.
    Johto has many hidden gems about it not recommending anyone to skip it.
    I certainly agree with you on that. And yeah like you said, the ratings going down in Johto and onward had to do with the Pokemon fad dying out a little bit. Pokemon was clearly at its peak in Kanto but I feel that the anime did make a lot of improvements as it moved forward.

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    Definitely the worst series of pokemon yet. Too many fillers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Master Quest was the only really decent part of Johto. You can tell the writers at least acknowledged how dull the first two Johto seasons were and decided to focused more on mini arcs again. Also bringing back Ash's Kanto starters helped.

    I can't help but look back at Johto now 10 year later and think about how different it could have been. But as they say, "what is done, is done." It's been 10 years since the end of this arc, everyones thoughts on it have already been cemented.
    Speak for yourself Cybercubed. I LOVED the Johto saga, it's only behind Kanto and Hoenn as my favorite arc. A lot of my friends stopped watching when Misty left and they regard the OS as the "true" pokemon. (flawed vision of things but that's what it is)

    Why you put your word as the ultimate truth lol.

    If I'd rank the Johto seasons it would be:

    Johto Journeys >>> Master Quest >>> Johto League Champions.

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    Too many filler episodes, terrible Johto team development, and Ash's Kanto team hogged all the spotlight.

    I really didn't like this region until the league, that's how bad it is to me. :/

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    Apart from the countless fillers I liked Johto. I think Master Quest was the best one, though I did love the overall beginning of Johto.

    The chosen ones

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    johto part of the og series and my childhood.....good times good times.
    the only downside was at the end of the series ash began neglecting his pokemon(more than usual) i mean come on the main reason muk didnt get a win in the league was because it wasnt trained and of course gary was and always will be the superior trainer. oh and poor kingler became a living prop.
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    I really enjoyed the first season in Kanto. When Orange Islands began I was less psyched for the show, but still had a good time. Then Johto started...

    I LOVED IT! Johto, for me, might even be better than Kanto! Though it took ages to get from gym to gym, this was not a problem to me. The longer it took for Ash to reach the final league, the more time I got to spend with characters I loved, on crazy and fun adventures along the way. There was still so much heart and character in this series and it ended on such a strong note! The final goodbye at the end tore me up and it was soooo sad to see Ash abandon as his Pokemon, but most of all it was difficult to continue watching after Johto.

    Johto was a bright, fun, exciting series. Yea, I think it's my favorite so far. And Johto Journeys has the BEST theme song yet!
    Someone once told me that Misty's cameos in Advanced Generation help make it easier knowing that she is no longer a series regular. They couldn't have been more wrong. After she leaves behind Togepi she returns to her gym more alone than ever AND ON TOP OF THAT, her last cameo was in 2005. 2005!?!?!? ITS BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE ONE OF THE CAST WHO STARTED THE SHOW WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW!?!?

    Why do we even watch Pokemon anymore

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    The Johto saga was the anime's absolute worst arc. Even as a kid I was shocked at how bad it was. The original trio completely bombed as a group and Misty became such a stale, flat and poorly handled character.

    Of course the worst part of Johto was the fillers. Too many if them and too many were bad. Ash's Johto pokemon were awful and his worst lineup in the series and his Kanto starters were dropped. The GS ball being dropped didn't help matters either.

    While there were some funny episodes and the league was good, everything else was mediocre to poor. It's a shame the OS ended on such a poor saga. At least the writers acknowledged it and improved the show afterward.

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    Main problem is that when you think about it Johto really wasn't that bad of a region. It had its big flaws and lot of this comes out from fact of:
    -writers not knowing and having experience to pace properly three years long sagas as they would become able to do so in much better manner in future generations.

    -one of main plots GS ball was dropped early from show through which it was planned to give Ash, Brock and Misty major story to be actively involved in. Once that vector and plotline was discarded writers kinda hit the wall taking some time to come up with new storylines(explains all that flux of plot based arcs at end of 4th and whole 5th season).

    -writers not being able to agree between them,selves and directors in what direction anime should be taken. This was era of massive turmoils going between staff as brought by Takeshi Shudo in blogs who as head writer got in dispoutes with those at higher level who were in charge of this show. He wanted deep, more substantual story where each character(main trio) is handled as irreplaceable and key component along with TR becoming more than just comic relief, but producers opted how marketing takes priority over quality.
    When you hear some of mr. Shudo ideas like wanting to include real dinosaur T-rex in third movie.
    Which could had brought new dimension to story perhaps better explaining pokemon origins and how pokemon came to planet earth influencing to that point known animal eco system and eventually humans over the history.

    You can tell how much his idea of what pokemon should be like differed from main heads in charge vision of what this anime will be about.

    But with all said and done lt ask ourselves was Johto regardless of this "worse saga" in series history?

    In nutshell no i dont believe thats true and im going to down below explain why. Especially because Johto started to become alot more meaningful to follow once writers got their heads together delivering lot of memorable moments and proper structured direction under which characters would go from Ash gym battle vs leader Morty and onward.

    Bear with me because this is going to be very long post analyzing whole saga:

    Very unfortunate circumstance surrounding this saga was that many people didn't watched whole Johto to form complete opinion because of getting bored at some point by chain of episodes which particularly didn't caught their interest. Netting Johto very unfair etquette of region where nothing happened but "fillers"(minority of episodes in Johto were actual fillers).

    But from my rewatching of pokemon series marathon i have been doing i just realized how many good, actually downright fantastic things happened in Johto i completely forgot about and i feel sorry for those who didn't stick until end. Because as you dive deeper in this region things only start to boil up becoming interesting. Especially once Ecruteak city gym match is passed , Whirl islands detour begins and all those wonderful story plotlines filling up space before Johto Silver conference.

    Since im tired of talking just about flaws, ill look back on positive sides Johto series brought to table for once which makes it worthwhile to watch in my opinion.

    POSITIVE Johto points imo:

    In retrospective Johto was groundbreaking series in many aspects. It brought Brock back to main cast, it let Ash keep all of his older pokemon continuing as experienced trainer in new region. It started more devoted tradition of mini arcs spread over region comprised of either resolving issue concerning legendary pokemon, battling pokemon villains or have main group enter tournaments.

    Johto was in fact only saga which was treated as direct sequel to previous series (meaning no reboots, completely new starts from scratch, regression in someone skills etc) Kanto, Orange series with writers building on Ash, Brock and Misty adventure and friendship becoming more attached to each other. BEST chemistry i ever seen out of main groups Ash traveled with.

    It had myriad of recurring characters fron Kanto(Todd, Duplica, Koga sister Aya, Ritchie, breeder Suzie to name a few making both regions connected to each other) . Even writing still contained certain level of edgy, kinky writing techniques we used to be seen being used in Kanto series on daily basis. Excelled with humor, flamboyant interactions and overall interesting interactions between cast as far as im concerned being another common link.

    One of positive things was Brock and Misty battling more compared to Kanto actually getting more screentime,development and focus on their own feelings, past. And personal affinities. Although given the lenght of region compared to Kanto they didnt get enough, but it was still more than in past.

    Gym battles were improved alot compared to early days and style of battling overall moved on higher quality level.
    Many gym leaders were hilarious, dimensional and unique in characterization. Like Chuck at Cianwood gym using his pokemon like Machoke to practice karate chop or submission on each other being overly emotional not hesitating to shed manly tears.
    Whitney revealing to like shopping having some nice girly moments with Misty and giving us insight in daily life at MIltank farm and from wghere such enormous strength of her Miltank roll out comes from.

    Pryce showing depth to his character and tragic experiences which happened to him when he used to be young trainer ending seriously injured by fire blast turning in bitter, cold person which lost faith in pokemon after being deceived by thought of his best pokemon betraying him etc, etc.

    Talking about arcs, Johto provided us with some of most original and well constructed arcs we saw in pokemon series. We had Whirl Islands detour being wrapped with spectacular water tournament drawing links with ancient times and water spirits.
    Mysterious sinked ships containing hidden treasures such as Silver wing, Red Gyarados mini story which featured Lance, Lugia arc, whole arc about Clair, Dragonite and dragon temple.
    Spectacular Johto league delivering forever awaited ultimate clash between Gary and Ash etc.

    Johto also had many, many memorable episodes which while may had not necessarily advanced plot allowed to get better insight in character personalities, their fears and growth of friendship. Get look in their daily activities when not battling, competing or being involved in some danger making journey feel more realitic and substantial. Not to mention such type of episodes often include lot of humor, funny characterization and lighthearted, relaxing atmosphere giving us refreshing break from plot based episodes all the time.

    For instance i really liked episodes like "Spinarack Attack" ,"The Mysterious Super Hero", ""Plant it Now, Diglett Later", "Enlighten Up""Just WAiting on s Friend" etc, etc.
    With best things coming from season 3 and season 5(imo best Johto season).

    Although for all flack season 4 gets it had quite a few gems actually. Such as "Sick Daze", "Joy of water pokemon", "Unbearable", "Trouble Brewing", "Fossil Fools" and many others. In fact looking back season 4 had good chunk of really great episodes.

    One of things i liked about Johto was definitely chemistry between main cast. Say what you want but Ash, Misty and Brock seemed to have closest and most memorable friendship out of all groups in this show which was greatly emphasited on in Johto. BEST chemistry i ever saw out of any other group which came afterwards containing two way alley of interacting between all three of them filled with humor, suspense, jokes and crazy hilarious antics performing portrayal of care, emotions or aggravation in natural and very vivid way.

    There was plenty of humor, moral support, care and laugh in their interactions still promoting that Kanto charm of group of friends exploring world of pokemon while learning new things and just having fun.

    With Misty liking to tease Ash and Brock and rib them with smart alec jokes in more lighthearted, mature manner not going berserk over very little thing like she did in Kanto. Which was reflection of her growth. Still being flirty and headstrong keeping Brock in check or impatient loosing her strings when Ash said something stupid or they got lost in forest, desert etc, passionate about various hobbies like Cilan is(fishing, water types, cute pokemon), deep romantic trying to get other couples together .

    Brock was still flirty liking to chase other girls, irrational not knowing what to do about those which dropped eye on him like Temaku. Eccentric going as far as licking Sudowoodo, as well showing his caring and wise side putting lot of effort in taking care of baby Stantler, his Golbat which got buried under ruins etc.
    All encompassed with Ash stubborn rash behavior getting his companions in trouble, being cocky at times but also developing gratefulness and lot of care toward his friends meaning alot to him(to the point of Misty and Brock being only people which had Ash break down crying a river).

    Dynamic between Ash,Misty and Brock may have slightly changed but they still felt like lively family in Johto being enjoyable imo.
    Ok slapstick humor wasnt present much anymore(lets be real it stopped existing after early Kanto) but thefe was present lot of sarcasm and smart alec jokes, tantrums and dissidence going between them all accompanied with lot of laugh, moral support and understanding for each other with their friendship actually growing getting over their introduction phase allowing to take their relationship on higher level.

    Another very important aspect i would like to address in here is amount of character development Ash companions received.
    Both as group of friends and individuals separately.

    First it was clear and surprising to me over course of Johto how much friendship between them grew becoming more attached to each other, already knowing their weak and strong point giving out impression of three strongly connected friends exploring new regions and pokemon. This can be especially noticed in great deal of concern and compassion when either of them was in danger such as Misty falling from cliff with Marill or being separated from group by Ursaring, when Brock was sick with Ash and Misty taking care of him realizing how much Brock means to them, when Ash was injured or went in dangerous situations to battle TR with Misty crying.

    Or in more lighthearted tone and endearing dynamic present between them containing more sarcasm and smart alec jokes, motivation and moral support aside from arguing and agitation at times they provided to each other supporting Brock when meeting with old friend Suzie, when Ash was saddened over leaving older pokemon behind, when Misty competed against others etc,. Or in talking about their dreams, giving each other advices about romance(mostly Misty to Brock), battling, how to train pokemon etc.

    And out of so called "filler" in Johto where nothing important happened, many episodes contained contained actual character development.
    Such as "Little Big Horn", "Control Freak" or "Type Casting" where Brock applied his until than collected attainment about breeding and medicines learning better how to take care of pokemon and learn whats best for them. "A Better Pill to Swallov" or "Going Apricorn" where e learned about new potions and ways how to heal pokemon from herbs and resources which can be found in natural environment, Love the Totodile Style" where he observed Totodile whgich had crush on Azumarill trying to help him to win her heart etc.

    "For Crying Out Loud" and "Hook, line and Stinker" where Misty bond on closer level with her own or other pokemon like Marill and Poliwhirl helping her to better understand their feelings. "Some Like it Hot" where she revealed more about her past and why she likes water type so much learning to respect fire trainers like Egan and those who think otherwise overcoming her differences with him.

    "Trouble Brewing" where she build strong friendship with Sakura drawing parallel of same issues she had with her own sisters helping her to overcome it and several other examples.

    Whirl Islands which expanded on water master career which she considered highly important being excited and nervous over entering her first big competition on such scale etc.

    So yeah not quite sure how can anyone find Misty "flat", boring" and "useless" at all in Johto.
    Only difference from Kanto was that she became more mature and levelheaded not being as violent like she used to be, but that doesn't change anything because she was still highly entertaining as character.
    Showing lot of flare, sarcasm and girly tendencies in kinda more grown up way. Interacting great with Ash, Brock and several characters bringing humor and lively dynamic with her jokes, hotheaded nature, defiant behavior and funny outbursts.

    I remember several episodes where Misty had some really great moments with her sarcasm, various quirks and occasional outbursts adding to comedy. Like "Hour of Houndour", "No Big Woop", "Unbearable", "A Farfetchd Tale", "Forest Grumps", "Fossil Fools", "The Bug Stops Here", "Better Pill to Swallov", "Espeon included", "An Egg sighting Adventure", "As clear as Crystal" and many others i could list from top of my mind.

    So yeah, Misty seemed pretty lively, full of energy, temperament, cynical in funny way and active in Johto for someone who apparently "had no personality" over there.

    Im literally astonished how some dont realize that Misty changes in characterization were results of personality development. Just like May became more mature by time she left cast or Ash when he was able to take on mentor role. If anything, if chronicles and Hoenn appearances didn't proved that Misty went through emotional growth than i dont think nothing will unfortunately.

    Growth in Johto maybe wasn't well connected and organized, but it was step toward later gaining more faith in herself and independence without losing her quirky, fiery and tough side .
    Feeling sorry for new generations never having chance to get know her, experience that humor, charm and fantastic chemisty varied persona brought,m depriving show of many cool storylines presence of water enthusiast could offer to its vaue. Hoenn really was perfect for her due to all that water themes.

    Anyhow Johto series gave Ash traveling companions despite all its flaws more justice than Kanto in reality had done.

    So while Johto wasnt the best region to me,it certainly wasnt nearly as bad or "just filler quest" as some like to say.

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