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Thread: Pokémon - The Johto League (03,04,05)

  1. #51
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    Master Quest was the only really decent part of Johto. You can tell the writers at least acknowledged how dull the first two Johto seasons were and decided to focused more on mini arcs again. Also bringing back Ash's Kanto starters helped.

    I can't help but look back at Johto now 10 year later and think about how different it could have been. But as they say, "what is done, is done." It's been 10 years since the end of this arc, everyones thoughts on it have already been cemented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Master Quest was the only really decent part of Johto. You can tell the writers at least acknowledged how dull the first two Johto seasons were and decided to focused more on mini arcs again. Also bringing back Ash's Kanto starters helped.
    Master Quest was actually great as season. Misty received some great screen time and development there, we got several great arcs(such as Whirl Cup, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc). THere were interesting mini arcs with gym leadrs such as Clair and DRagon temple revolving around Dragon tooth and sacred fire.

    Johto Silver Coneference was fntastic too concluding AShxGary rivalry and departure between original cast was one of most emotional and beautifly done momnts we had in pokemon.

    AS for rest of Johto while i wont deny how there were quite a few dull episodes, there were also several really enjoyable ones recommending to everyone to watch them. Such as "Fortune Hunters", "Hook, Line and Stinker", "Beauty and the Breeder", "Sick Daze", "Ring Masters"etc(list continues).

    Johto had some reall good things about it.

    I can't help but look back at Johto now 10 year later and think about how different it could have been. But as they say, "what is done, is done." It's been 10 years since the end of this arc, everyones thoughts on it have already been cemented.
    Im not sure why you speak in everyone name, because there are many fans which liked Johto.

    If Johto was really that detrimental original series wouldnt be so popular with majority being able to overlook negative things liking this era of pokemon because of its good things. And there were many of them with Ash,Misty and BRock being to this day most popular and iconic group.Demand for reunion speaks for itself.

    Not to mention it was with original trio when pokemon was at its peak of popularity.
    Yes you can argue how ratings started to decline in mid Johto but that was on large part because fad started to die out. Nothing can last forever so it was to expect that people will eventually grew up and move to other things.Poor writing and too many fillers didnt helped things either.

    Decline in ratings would have happened in Hoenn or DP too if that was period when initial hype and fad started to diminish.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Master Quest was actually great as season. Misty received some great screen time and development there, we got several great arcs(such as Whirl Cup, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc). THere were interesting mini arcs with gym leadrs such as Clair and DRagon temple revolving around Dragon tooth and sacred fire.

    Johto Silver Coneference was fntastic too concluding AShxGary rivalry and departure between original cast was one of most emotional and beautifly done momnts we had in pokemon.

    AS for rest of Johto while i wont deny how there were quite a few dull episodes, there were also several really enjoyable ones recommending to everyone to watch them. Such as "Fortune Hunters", "Hook, Line and Stinker", "Beauty and the Breeder", "Sick Daze", "Ring Masters"etc(list continues).

    Johto had some reall good things about it.



    Im not sure why you speak in everyone name, because there are many fans which liked Johto.

    If Johto was really that detrimental original series wouldnt be so popular with majority being able to overlook negative things liking this era of pokemon because of its good things. And there were many of them with Ash,Misty and BRock being to this day most popular and iconic group.Demand for reunion speaks for itself.

    Not to mention it was with original trio when pokemon was at its peak of popularity.
    Yes you can argue how ratings started to decline in mid Johto but that was on large part because fad started to die out. Nothing can last forever so it was to expect that people will eventually grew up and move to other things.Poor writing and too many fillers didnt helped things either.

    Decline in ratings would have happened in Hoenn or DP too if that was period when initial hype and fad started to diminish.
    I don't know why you look at ratings to judge the quality of a series. That's not smart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    I don't know why you look at ratings to judge the quality of a series. That's not smart.
    You misunderstood. I used ratings to point out how reason why interest among viewers dropped in mid Johto wasn't because of original trio being used as some like to think but because of several factors with initial hype and fad pokemon used to have not being expected to last forever.

    When it comes to me i could care less how big ratings are for specific region because i evaluate how enjoyable certain saga is by quality of episodes themselves, how good interaction between characters is and how much development it contains.

    I never pay attention to other opinions forming my own view about series or characters and personally i can say i liked more about Johto than disliked. It had many fun episodes, original trio still felt like friends sharing close bond with Misty getting some important growth and all those mini arcs, battles etc were in most cases of high quality.
    Johto has many hidden gems about it not recommending anyone to skip it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    You misunderstood. I used ratings to point out how reason why interest among viewers dropped in mid Johto wasn't because of original trio being used as some like to think but because of several factors with initial hype and fad pokemon used to have not being expected to last forever.

    When it comes to me i could care less how big ratings are for specific region because i evaluate how enjoyable certain saga is by quality of episodes themselves, how good interaction between characters is and how much development it contains.

    I never pay attention to other opinions forming my own view about series or characters and personally i can say i liked more about Johto than disliked. It had many fun episodes, original trio still felt like friends sharing close bond with Misty getting some important growth and all those mini arcs, battles etc were in most cases of high quality.
    Johto has many hidden gems about it not recommending anyone to skip it.
    I certainly agree with you on that. And yeah like you said, the ratings going down in Johto and onward had to do with the Pokemon fad dying out a little bit. Pokemon was clearly at its peak in Kanto but I feel that the anime did make a lot of improvements as it moved forward.

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    Definitely the worst series of pokemon yet. Too many fillers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    Master Quest was the only really decent part of Johto. You can tell the writers at least acknowledged how dull the first two Johto seasons were and decided to focused more on mini arcs again. Also bringing back Ash's Kanto starters helped.

    I can't help but look back at Johto now 10 year later and think about how different it could have been. But as they say, "what is done, is done." It's been 10 years since the end of this arc, everyones thoughts on it have already been cemented.
    Speak for yourself Cybercubed. I LOVED the Johto saga, it's only behind Kanto and Hoenn as my favorite arc. A lot of my friends stopped watching when Misty left and they regard the OS as the "true" pokemon. (flawed vision of things but that's what it is)

    Why you put your word as the ultimate truth lol.

    If I'd rank the Johto seasons it would be:

    Johto Journeys >>> Master Quest >>> Johto League Champions.

  8. #58

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    Too many filler episodes, terrible Johto team development, and Ash's Kanto team hogged all the spotlight.

    I really didn't like this region until the league, that's how bad it is to me. :/

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    Apart from the countless fillers I liked Johto. I think Master Quest was the best one, though I did love the overall beginning of Johto.

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    johto part of the og series and my childhood.....good times good times.
    the only downside was at the end of the series ash began neglecting his pokemon(more than usual) i mean come on the main reason muk didnt get a win in the league was because it wasnt trained and of course gary was and always will be the superior trainer. oh and poor kingler became a living prop.
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    I really enjoyed the first season in Kanto. When Orange Islands began I was less psyched for the show, but still had a good time. Then Johto started...

    I LOVED IT! Johto, for me, might even be better than Kanto! Though it took ages to get from gym to gym, this was not a problem to me. The longer it took for Ash to reach the final league, the more time I got to spend with characters I loved, on crazy and fun adventures along the way. There was still so much heart and character in this series and it ended on such a strong note! The final goodbye at the end tore me up and it was soooo sad to see Ash abandon as his Pokemon, but most of all it was difficult to continue watching after Johto.

    Johto was a bright, fun, exciting series. Yea, I think it's my favorite so far. And Johto Journeys has the BEST theme song yet!
    Someone once told me that Misty's cameos in Advanced Generation help make it easier knowing that she is no longer a series regular. They couldn't have been more wrong. After she leaves behind Togepi she returns to her gym more alone than ever AND ON TOP OF THAT, her last cameo was in 2005. 2005!?!?!? ITS BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE ONE OF THE CAST WHO STARTED THE SHOW WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW!?!?

    Why do we even watch Pokemon anymore

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    The Johto saga was the anime's absolute worst arc. Even as a kid I was shocked at how bad it was. The original trio completely bombed as a group and Misty became such a stale, flat and poorly handled character.

    Of course the worst part of Johto was the fillers. Too many if them and too many were bad. Ash's Johto pokemon were awful and his worst lineup in the series and his Kanto starters were dropped. The GS ball being dropped didn't help matters either.

    While there were some funny episodes and the league was good, everything else was mediocre to poor. It's a shame the OS ended on such a poor saga. At least the writers acknowledged it and improved the show afterward.

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    Main problem is that when you think about it Johto really wasn't that bad of a region. It had its big flaws and lot of this comes out from fact of:
    -writers not knowing and having experience to pace properly three years long sagas as they would become able to do so in much better manner in future generations.

    -one of main plots GS ball was dropped early from show through which it was planned to give Ash, Brock and Misty major story to be actively involved in. Once that vector and plotline was discarded writers kinda hit the wall taking some time to come up with new storylines(explains all that flux of plot based arcs at end of 4th and whole 5th season).

    -writers not being able to agree between them,selves and directors in what direction anime should be taken. This was era of massive turmoils going between staff as brought by Takeshi Shudo in blogs who as head writer got in dispoutes with those at higher level who were in charge of this show. He wanted deep, more substantual story where each character(main trio) is handled as irreplaceable and key component along with TR becoming more than just comic relief, but producers opted how marketing takes priority over quality.
    When you hear some of mr. Shudo ideas like wanting to include real dinosaur T-rex in third movie.
    Which could had brought new dimension to story perhaps better explaining pokemon origins and how pokemon came to planet earth influencing to that point known animal eco system and eventually humans over the history.

    You can tell how much his idea of what pokemon should be like differed from main heads in charge vision of what this anime will be about.

    But with all said and done lt ask ourselves was Johto regardless of this "worse saga" in series history?

    In nutshell no i dont believe thats true and im going to down below explain why. Especially because Johto started to become alot more meaningful to follow once writers got their heads together delivering lot of memorable moments and proper structured direction under which characters would go from Ash gym battle vs leader Morty and onward.

    Bear with me because this is going to be very long post analyzing whole saga:

    Very unfortunate circumstance surrounding this saga was that many people didn't watched whole Johto to form complete opinion because of getting bored at some point by chain of episodes which particularly didn't caught their interest. Netting Johto very unfair etquette of region where nothing happened but "fillers"(minority of episodes in Johto were actual fillers).

    But from my rewatching of pokemon series marathon i have been doing i just realized how many good, actually downright fantastic things happened in Johto i completely forgot about and i feel sorry for those who didn't stick until end. Because as you dive deeper in this region things only start to boil up becoming interesting. Especially once Ecruteak city gym match is passed , Whirl islands detour begins and all those wonderful story plotlines filling up space before Johto Silver conference.

    Since im tired of talking just about flaws, ill look back on positive sides Johto series brought to table for once which makes it worthwhile to watch in my opinion.

    POSITIVE Johto points imo:

    In retrospective Johto was groundbreaking series in many aspects. It brought Brock back to main cast, it let Ash keep all of his older pokemon continuing as experienced trainer in new region. It started more devoted tradition of mini arcs spread over region comprised of either resolving issue concerning legendary pokemon, battling pokemon villains or have main group enter tournaments.

    Continuity:
    Johto was in fact only saga which was treated as direct sequel to previous series (meaning no reboots, completely new starts from scratch, regression in someone skills etc) Kanto, Orange series with writers building on Ash, Brock and Misty adventure and friendship becoming more attached to each other. BEST chemistry i ever seen out of main groups Ash traveled with.

    It had myriad of recurring characters fron Kanto(Todd, Duplica, Koga sister Aya, Ritchie, breeder Suzie to name a few making both regions connected to each other) . Even writing still contained certain level of edgy, kinky writing techniques we used to be seen being used in Kanto series on daily basis. Excelled with humor, flamboyant interactions and overall interesting interactions between cast as far as im concerned being another common link.

    One of positive things was Brock and Misty battling more compared to Kanto actually getting more screentime,development and focus on their own feelings, past. And personal affinities. Although given the lenght of region compared to Kanto they didnt get enough, but it was still more than in past.

    Battles and character portrayal:
    Gym battles were improved alot compared to early days and style of battling overall moved on higher quality level.
    Many gym leaders were hilarious, dimensional and unique in characterization. Like Chuck at Cianwood gym using his pokemon like Machoke to practice karate chop or submission on each other being overly emotional not hesitating to shed manly tears.
    Whitney revealing to like shopping having some nice girly moments with Misty and giving us insight in daily life at MIltank farm and from wghere such enormous strength of her Miltank roll out comes from.

    Pryce showing depth to his character and tragic experiences which happened to him when he used to be young trainer ending seriously injured by fire blast turning in bitter, cold person which lost faith in pokemon after being deceived by thought of his best pokemon betraying him etc, etc.

    Talking about arcs, Johto provided us with some of most original and well constructed arcs we saw in pokemon series. We had Whirl Islands detour being wrapped with spectacular water tournament drawing links with ancient times and water spirits.
    Mysterious sinked ships containing hidden treasures such as Silver wing, Red Gyarados mini story which featured Lance, Lugia arc, whole arc about Clair, Dragonite and dragon temple.
    Spectacular Johto league delivering forever awaited ultimate clash between Gary and Ash etc.

    Johto also had many, many memorable episodes which while may had not necessarily advanced plot allowed to get better insight in character personalities, their fears and growth of friendship. Get look in their daily activities when not battling, competing or being involved in some danger making journey feel more realitic and substantial. Not to mention such type of episodes often include lot of humor, funny characterization and lighthearted, relaxing atmosphere giving us refreshing break from plot based episodes all the time.

    For instance i really liked episodes like "Spinarack Attack" ,"The Mysterious Super Hero", ""Plant it Now, Diglett Later", "Enlighten Up""Just WAiting on s Friend" etc, etc.
    With best things coming from season 3 and season 5(imo best Johto season).

    Although for all flack season 4 gets it had quite a few gems actually. Such as "Sick Daze", "Joy of water pokemon", "Unbearable", "Trouble Brewing", "Fossil Fools" and many others. In fact looking back season 4 had good chunk of really great episodes.

    Main group chemistry:
    One of things i liked about Johto was definitely chemistry between main cast. Say what you want but Ash, Misty and Brock seemed to have closest and most memorable friendship out of all groups in this show which was greatly emphasited on in Johto. BEST chemistry i ever saw out of any other group which came afterwards containing two way alley of interacting between all three of them filled with humor, suspense, jokes and crazy hilarious antics performing portrayal of care, emotions or aggravation in natural and very vivid way.

    There was plenty of humor, moral support, care and laugh in their interactions still promoting that Kanto charm of group of friends exploring world of pokemon while learning new things and just having fun.

    With Misty liking to tease Ash and Brock and rib them with smart alec jokes in more lighthearted, mature manner not going berserk over very little thing like she did in Kanto. Which was reflection of her growth. Still being flirty and headstrong keeping Brock in check or impatient loosing her strings when Ash said something stupid or they got lost in forest, desert etc, passionate about various hobbies like Cilan is(fishing, water types, cute pokemon), deep romantic trying to get other couples together .

    Brock was still flirty liking to chase other girls, irrational not knowing what to do about those which dropped eye on him like Temaku. Eccentric going as far as licking Sudowoodo, as well showing his caring and wise side putting lot of effort in taking care of baby Stantler, his Golbat which got buried under ruins etc.
    All encompassed with Ash stubborn rash behavior getting his companions in trouble, being cocky at times but also developing gratefulness and lot of care toward his friends meaning alot to him(to the point of Misty and Brock being only people which had Ash break down crying a river).

    Dynamic between Ash,Misty and Brock may have slightly changed but they still felt like lively family in Johto being enjoyable imo.
    Ok slapstick humor wasnt present much anymore(lets be real it stopped existing after early Kanto) but thefe was present lot of sarcasm and smart alec jokes, tantrums and dissidence going between them all accompanied with lot of laugh, moral support and understanding for each other with their friendship actually growing getting over their introduction phase allowing to take their relationship on higher level.

    Another very important aspect i would like to address in here is amount of character development Ash companions received.
    Both as group of friends and individuals separately.

    First it was clear and surprising to me over course of Johto how much friendship between them grew becoming more attached to each other, already knowing their weak and strong point giving out impression of three strongly connected friends exploring new regions and pokemon. This can be especially noticed in great deal of concern and compassion when either of them was in danger such as Misty falling from cliff with Marill or being separated from group by Ursaring, when Brock was sick with Ash and Misty taking care of him realizing how much Brock means to them, when Ash was injured or went in dangerous situations to battle TR with Misty crying.

    Or in more lighthearted tone and endearing dynamic present between them containing more sarcasm and smart alec jokes, motivation and moral support aside from arguing and agitation at times they provided to each other supporting Brock when meeting with old friend Suzie, when Ash was saddened over leaving older pokemon behind, when Misty competed against others etc,. Or in talking about their dreams, giving each other advices about romance(mostly Misty to Brock), battling, how to train pokemon etc.

    Character development:
    Out of so called "filler" in Johto where nothing important happened, many episodes contained contained actual character development.
    Such as "Little Big Horn", "Control Freak" or "Type Casting" where Brock applied his until than collected attainment about breeding and medicines learning better how to take care of pokemon and learn whats best for them. "A Better Pill to Swallov" or "Going Apricorn" where e learned about new potions and ways how to heal pokemon from herbs and resources which can be found in natural environment, Love the Totodile Style" where he observed Totodile whgich had crush on Azumarill trying to help him to win her heart etc.

    "For Crying Out Loud" and "Hook, line and Stinker" where Misty bond on closer level with her own or other pokemon like Marill and Poliwhirl helping her to better understand their feelings. "Some Like it Hot" where she revealed more about her past and why she likes water type so much learning to respect fire trainers like Egan and those who think otherwise overcoming her differences with him.

    "Trouble Brewing" where she build strong friendship with Sakura drawing parallel of same issues she had with her own sisters helping her to overcome it and several other examples.

    Whirl Islands which expanded on water master career which she considered highly important being excited and nervous over entering her first big competition on such scale etc.

    So yeah not quite sure how can anyone find Misty "flat", boring" and "useless" at all in Johto.
    Only difference from Kanto was that she became more mature and levelheaded not being as violent like she used to be, but that doesn't change anything because she was still highly entertaining as character.
    Showing lot of flare, sarcasm and girly tendencies in kinda more grown up way. Interacting great with Ash, Brock and several characters bringing humor and lively dynamic with her jokes, hotheaded nature, defiant behavior and funny outbursts.

    I remember several episodes where Misty had some really great moments with her sarcasm, various quirks and occasional outbursts adding to comedy. Like "Hour of Houndour", "No Big Woop", "Unbearable", "A Farfetchd Tale", "Forest Grumps", "Fossil Fools", "The Bug Stops Here", "Better Pill to Swallov", "Espeon included", "An Egg sighting Adventure", "As clear as Crystal" and many others i could list from top of my mind.

    So yeah, Misty seemed pretty lively, full of energy, temperament, cynical in funny way and active in Johto for someone who apparently "had no personality" over there.

    Im literally astonished how some dont realize that Misty changes in characterization were results of personality development. Just like May became more mature by time she left cast or Ash when he was able to take on mentor role. If anything, if chronicles and Hoenn appearances didn't proved that Misty went through emotional growth than i dont think nothing will unfortunately.

    Growth in Johto maybe wasn't well connected and organized, but it was step toward later gaining more faith in herself and independence without losing her quirky, fiery and tough side .
    Feeling sorry for new generations never having chance to get know her, experience that humor, charm and fantastic chemisty varied persona brought,m depriving show of many cool storylines presence of water enthusiast could offer to its vaue. Hoenn really was perfect for her due to all that water themes.

    Final thoughts:
    Overall Johto had several things done right. It wasnt most spectacular,well paced and organized saga. But it had heart and emotion present in writing behind many episodes, it had very strong continuity and throwbacks to history made prior to it giving viewers sequel of adventure, and Johto series gave Ash traveling companions despite all its flaws more justice than Kanto in reality had done.

    So while Johto wasnt the best region to me, it certainly wasnt nearly as bad or "just filler quest" as some like to say having more to offer than its being given credit for.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 1st September 2014 at 2:56 PM.

  14. #64

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    Pretty boring series to me from what I remember. The beginning and ending of Johto were pretty decent, but the middle of Johto was just horribly boring with lots of filler with Ash and Team Rocket only getting focus while characters like Misty and Brock get shafted and stay in the background doing hardly anything at all. The battles weren't really that great either. I'd rate this 5/10
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    I don't know why filler gets so much hate. I still think the filler in Johto was tons of fun, even if it wasn't progressing the story along. Freaking Pidgey wanting to fly to the moon? One of my absolute favorite episodes. Completely pointless, completely filler, but still a side story so full of heart. I watched Johto in delight whereas other seasons I watched in sadness as I saw the show I loved transforming into something generalized, formatted, and made for profit. (Frowny Face)
    Someone once told me that Misty's cameos in Advanced Generation help make it easier knowing that she is no longer a series regular. They couldn't have been more wrong. After she leaves behind Togepi she returns to her gym more alone than ever AND ON TOP OF THAT, her last cameo was in 2005. 2005!?!?!? ITS BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE ONE OF THE CAST WHO STARTED THE SHOW WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW!?!?

    Why do we even watch Pokemon anymore

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    Quote Originally Posted by minerswhocraft View Post
    I don't know why filler gets so much hate. I still think the filler in Johto was tons of fun, even if it wasn't progressing the story along. Freaking Pidgey wanting to fly to the moon? One of my absolute favorite episodes. Completely pointless, completely filler, but still a side story so full of heart. I watched Johto in delight whereas other seasons I watched in sadness as I saw the show I loved transforming into something generalized, formatted, and made for profit. (Frowny Face)
    The Johto saga WAS the generalized, formatted and made for profit series. The anime was originally going to end after Kanto.

    Johto was just the result of the writers being surprised by what a success the Kanto saga was and not being sure what direction to take the series in. Orange Islands was the bridge but the writers realized Tracey was uneccessary and they tried reuniting the original trio. Then there was 3 years of the writers riding out the original fad until it died somewhere around 2001/2002.

    I think its especially notable how the original trio was never used again after Johto in any of the following sagas, not even for any specials or stand-alone movies or anything like that either.

  17. #67

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    I would disagree. Johto was far different than Kanto or the Orange Islands. The filler stories they told had a point, meaning. They were stories teaching lessons, developing the characters of that day. Though we may not have been getting 100% attention on the main cast of the show, they were doing extraordinary things helping all those others who came their way. It was beautiful, fun, and full of heart. Extremely kid friendly and well written. The point of the series since the start was never to watch Ash become a master. We have seen now that this is something that will never happen. The point was much more than just a kid following his dream. Look at all the good Ash and his friends did for everyone they met. Even if it was a distraction, even if it meant going out of their way, if Ash and friends saw someone in need of help they went and helped. They did what was right and this is extreme character building.

    The Johto series is what created the generalized format. After Johto the show didn't change. Kanto - 1 season Arc. Orange Islands - season Arc. Johto - 3 season Arc. Johto was new and fresh. What followed? AG - 3 season Arc. (The league Arc) DP - (I dont actually know. Perhaps 3 again)

    Johto took a different route, extending league time to really tell meaningful stories and lessons and AG, DP, BW have followed THAT structure. However, while Johto filled their fillers with meaning, the AG fillers didn't have that heart, and so the fillers were bland and the series was bleak. Ash changed into someone much more unfocussed and less loveable. The show realized it can just do what it did with Johto and keep the money rolling in.




    Pokemon truly isn't the same show it once was. The 1st 5 seasons are drastically different than following seasons and it was extremely hard to say goodbye to Johto era Pokemon because it was true Pokemon. Friendly, childish, meaningful. Now its just... childish... At least Black and White has been very similar to the original series which is a huge breathe of fresh air!
    Someone once told me that Misty's cameos in Advanced Generation help make it easier knowing that she is no longer a series regular. They couldn't have been more wrong. After she leaves behind Togepi she returns to her gym more alone than ever AND ON TOP OF THAT, her last cameo was in 2005. 2005!?!?!? ITS BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE ONE OF THE CAST WHO STARTED THE SHOW WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW!?!?

    Why do we even watch Pokemon anymore

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    Quote Originally Posted by minerswhocraft View Post
    I would disagree. Johto was far different than Kanto or the Orange Islands. The filler stories they told had a point, meaning. They were stories teaching lessons, developing the characters of that day.
    Most didn't. Ash helping a random trainer with a problem is something that happens in fillers in every series. In fact that was the formula for most Johto episodes, Ash would help a random trainer who had a problem with their pokemon, while Misty/Brock just kinda stood in the background and didn't really do anything besides provide commentary. Then you had Team Rocket steal the Pokemon and that would be the episode.

    The point was much more than just a kid following his dream. Look at all the good Ash and his friends did for everyone they met. Even if it was a distraction, even if it meant going out of their way, if Ash and friends saw someone in need of help they went and helped. They did what was right and this is extreme character building.
    This happens every series though. How were the episodes in Hoenn or Unova any different?

    Johto took a different route, extending league time to really tell meaningful stories and lessons and AG, DP, BW have followed THAT structure. However, while Johto filled their fillers with meaning, the AG fillers didn't have that heart, and so the fillers were bland and the series was bleak. Ash changed into someone much more unfocussed and less loveable. The show realized it can just do what it did with Johto and keep the money rolling in.
    So you're telling me episodes in Johto where a Yanma was breaking window glass in town, a Oddish thought it was a Hoppip, a grinning Sunflora competition, or a Snubbull that constantly bit Meowth's tail is amazing storytelling? They're all typical one-note plots of a random pokemon doing something or Ash helping a trainer.

    On top of that, none of the cast changed or grew. Misty and Brock largely remained in the background and were only given the bare minimum of episodes dedicated to them where they could shine. I'm not sure why the writers didn't focus more on Misty and Brock on their goals, they had 150 Johto episodes to do so, but I guess focusing on those one-episode trainers we would never see again seemed more important?

    Johto largely came across as a trial and error season for the writers, it didn't seem like they knew what they wanted to do with the show until after it ended.

  19. #69

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    It's just as you said. The "one-episode" stories was were the good stuff was. All the episodes you listed were such beautiful stories that built up and created an amazing and ideal Pokemon World. Sure, Ash and friend weren't always the main focus, but look at how fed up we are with Ash now. We need as many breaks as we can get from the main cast. And the fillers here were just amazing.

    I don't know about you Cyber, but I don't watch Pokemon because I find Ash such an amazing person who I need to see develop and grow. Ash started out as a crazy and wild little kid. It was that little kid that got me hooked on the show. I don't need to see that change, I loved it! But what I loved more was the insanely fun and light hearted world that this little boy was traveling through. The Pokemon and people he met, the adventures he shared, and all the friends he made along the way. That's what Pokemon is. That's what made the show spectacular.

    Ash Misty and Brock all had extraordinary development. Again, I was binge watching bye series. I didn't have to wait 3 years like most of you all did. I understand why it might have dragged and waiting so long to get to the next gym would be annoying. But I loved every second of it. The Pokemon world throughout Johto expanded immensely and the people and Pokemon got even greater.

    It's simply something a kids show should have. Seasons after Johto no longer focused on the world around and put more focus on the characters. Ash trying to teach a move from episode to episode. Ash not being crazy and wild anymore. The Pokemon bing uninteresting and lazily thrown together. Perhaps the shows suffer due to the games themselves. But in the end, Pokemon lost that heart after Johto and it's gone forever.
    Someone once told me that Misty's cameos in Advanced Generation help make it easier knowing that she is no longer a series regular. They couldn't have been more wrong. After she leaves behind Togepi she returns to her gym more alone than ever AND ON TOP OF THAT, her last cameo was in 2005. 2005!?!?!? ITS BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE ONE OF THE CAST WHO STARTED THE SHOW WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW!?!?

    Why do we even watch Pokemon anymore

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by minerswhocraft View Post
    Ash Misty and Brock all had extraordinary development. Again, I was binge watching bye series. I didn't have to wait 3 years like most of you all did. I understand why it might have dragged and waiting so long to get to the next gym would be annoying. But I loved every second of it. The Pokemon world throughout Johto expanded immensely and the people and Pokemon got even greater.

    It's simply something a kids show should have. Seasons after Johto no longer focused on the world around and put more focus on the characters. Ash trying to teach a move from episode to episode. Ash not being crazy and wild anymore. The Pokemon bing uninteresting and lazily thrown together. Perhaps the shows suffer due to the games themselves. But in the end, Pokemon lost that heart after Johto and it's gone forever.
    To each their own I suppose. I realize it went faster for you since you watched the episodes all one after the other instead of waiting one week for a new episode like the rest of us did when it originally aired, but even then when people rewatch the series its the same thing.

    I also got rather bored of Ash's childish personality during Johto, and felt it was time for him to grow up. Much prefer how Hoenn, DP, and now the XY series treats Ash like he's a young teen rather than a clueless 10 year old, even if there's no actual aging in the series. Ash being a moron loses its luster, the point is to watch Ash grow and mature. He wasn't doing that in Johto.

  21. #71
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    To CyberCubed: I understand Johto is dark era of pokemon for you. You stated that so many times that its impossible not to notice, but at same time im perplexed how you dont give credit where is due as far as characters, storyline and innovation characteristic for Johto goes.

    It doesnt matter how it went, what matter is how it was tried and if writers were better prepared and exoerienced, this could have went and finish of on much better note than it used to be situation 13 years ago.

    Johto may have been time where formulaic, generic episodes started to show themselves on daylight. But Johto was also saga where you could tell there was still put lot of heart, characteterization and emotion put into episodes. Moments of Jessie meeting old friend Blissey and her failure to enter nurse school, Misty trying her best to save Marill developing strong bond with it just to discover it belonged to someone else having to cope with letting it go, Brock reunion with his old fried Suzie and return of Vulpix, when Brock was sick trying to fight TR being hit by their pokemon, Touching backstory such as Pryce and his lost Piloswine.

    Or all those moments when main characters were worried about each other providing moral support when Ash lost or had his pokemon leave behind, when he went into danger on his own against TR and Lugia with Brock comforting Misty, touching story over old Dragonite waiting for his master which died, final confrontation between Ash and Gary when reminding themselves of past and split in half pokeball etc, etc.

    Im not sure how can anyone deny packed with emotion and sadness when Ash, Misty and Brock split away either. Presented in episode "Gotta Catch Ya Later".

    Johto was pokemon era where we didnt dealt with Ash regression in personality and trainer sense being portrayed as experienced person who had lot of achievements and backstory behind himself going forward. Using some other pokemon to help him manage in unknown land full of new pokemon beside Pikachu,

    Friendship and bond between him and his friends, Misty and Brock continued to grow exponentially forming tighter chemistry, level of appreciation and attachment between themselves. Delivering in innate way message of best friends enjoying in each other company comforting and being there for each other, cried together, laughed together. Teased themselves, argued over petty things and had their moments of frustration and disagreements. But also lot of love and encouragement present behind themselves.

    Adventure through Johto in all its essence felt like actual continuation, step forward from what has happened in Kanto and Orange Islands delivering most continuity, flashbacks and connections to pas than any other futute region ever again. We saw lot of references to past adventures o Misty, Brock and Ash, return of familiar faces like Todd, Duplica, Lapras, Suzie, Ritchie etc. Talks about previous events and journey making storyline and plot much more consistent, credible and eventful as whole.

    Name one future saga(can be DP, AG, BW , XY)which had same amount of continuity and build up on adventure established in previous arc like Johto did. There isn't any.

    Sure that wasnt most productive way to promote new generation pokemon and providing deeper, more elevated psychological growth between human protagonists wasn't suited for small kids which might have not understood value of close relationships, someone emotional flaws and inner turmoils.

    But barring bad pacing and some mistakes, it was still proper and believable way in teling atory which is supposed to build on itself when taking big picture in consideration. Where someone history, past experience and adventures serve as hinterland helping to push your character forward using accumulated knowledge in new situations(and it payed of big time when Ash defeated his biggest rival). Most of all Johto wasn't hesitant in pushing boundries and trying to explore more on someone personality development, psychological evolution and portrayal of spens
    ding time wqith new people in your life, discovering new places, dealing with various negative and positive sides leaving impact on character starting to change on emotional level.

    You said how no one in main cast had character development in Johto. Yet you either forgotten and skipped majority of Johto episodes like 80% of fans on this site did (many admitted themselves they never watched anything past Goldenrod city, so how can they even know?), where gradual and clear cut maturity, introspectioon of someone personal fears, struggles ad hopes was fleshed out changing as persons.

    In fact ill say Misty was character which probably developed most in Johto. No im not talking about development of someone dreams, his pokemon team etc. Im talking about real, genuine character development which involved emotional and personality evolution of some character.


    Development which happened through interactions with other characters like Egan revealing why she likes water types and being more open toward different opinions, pokemon through which she interacted as brought up before, battling other trainers like Marcelus, Mason, TRinity etc realizing how she has lot left to learn, with most of her focus and screen time being connected with Ash growth as trainer helping him to improve and better himself, playing role in various episodes by helping resolve various plots, helping other characters and how to solve their issues learning things in process.

    Her change as person happened gradually and at times very slowly(so to unskilled eye such details can be missed out) learning how to be more open toward others and levelheaded through friends help and Togepi, while increasing her own independence stopping to rely on friends help and discover her own qualities.

    For example in episode "Trouble Brewing" when Misty bonded with Sakura we didn't saw that same pent up aggresion and frustration directed toward sisters like Misty used to have in Kanto toward sisters, On contrary we saw Misty maturing as character joking on her account of knowing what its like to be youngest in family and all crap she had to endure(sure they can still go on her nerves when bad mouthing her like Dorian case presented being furious, but she by that point showed how complex of inferiority for most part diminished realizing her own value and strength she had), helping Sakura to cope with her older sisters as well. We saw Misty sharing with Sakura how much she learned anout pokemon, battles and world in Ash and Brock company and how she consider them as her second family by this point. If this didn't showed how Misty developed as person and started to value Ash and Brock more than ever before, than tell me what does?

    I noticed by end of Johto that she grew a lot as character developing responsibility and lot of appreciation for her friends wanting to stay and continue pursuing her own dreams, but also realizing how family needs her being her duty to go back and prevent gym from being shut down. Along with being more tolerant as evidenced in relationship with Psyduck accepting him for who he is and being willing to listen to different opinions being more oriented toward joking, coming up with cynic remarks or being more assertive in taking care of things on her own while still having flare being feisty and stubborn in more mature manner.


    People can say what they want about Johto, But Misty curious, tomboyish nature having wide range of emotions and internal desires, conflicts which brought more complexity to character, interesting pokemon, touching and interesting backstory accompanied with unique dreams and aspirations of becoming water master. Dreams which brought dimension and certain mysterious quality to character in presenting different, new way to see someone grow and succed as pokemon trainer in world.

    Saved lot of otherwise which would be boring episodes brioging lot of fiery passion, humor, drama and emotion. Something we never nad replicated in same homogenous, original and varied way with other girls like MIsty did. Denying pokemon series of charm, identity and drama her strong presence brought.

    And im still trying to comprehend how exactly Ash had no character development in Johto either? He finally managed to defeat his long time rival Gary, make bigger accomplishment at league coming top 8.

    Ash became less impulsive and stubborn in Johto through Misty and Brock guidance taking their advices(such as in preparing strategy for Whirl Cup or Silver conference, what pokemon to use vs gym leaders like Falkner). Payed attention to details starting to train more actively his pokemon such as Cyndaquil after crushing defeat from trainer with Scarmory. Became more emotional and caring for his pokemon revealing lot of attachment and sadness when having to leave those he loves so much behind. Showed his increase of selfawareness and experience in helping other trainers to cope with their problems like Koga sister Aya from Fuchsia gym, on how to bring inner strrength of your pokemon on surface sharing with her his own dpubts as trainer he went through. See their talk in middle of night, youll see how muzch his character changed compared to before.
    Episode Ariados Amigos.

    Not to mention if Ash breaking down in tears not being able to handle two most important persons aside from mother(Misty and Brock)leaving him at end of Johto displaying how much they meant to him, all help, tough times and fun moments they shared didnt convinced you in Ash growing as character, Than nothing will im afraid.

    Even Brock who isn't known for some particularly nuanced and notable growth changed as person becoming more empathic, considerate and caring for his friends. Which can be noticed in asking Misty for advices how to approach girls like Temaku or Jenarro winning Ariene sympathy. Revealing lot of concern when Misty was separed from him and Ash such as in Ursaring forest. Realizing how no matter how he may have felt about Suzie its for best to let her pursue her own happiness with another guy, getting over his jealousy and prejudices.

    Developed better sense for danger and pokemon problems in taking care of wild pokemon like Stantler, Sudowoodo, sick Houndoom etc.Learning to prepare new potions and medicines enriching on knowledge as breeder etc.

    Yet many seem to ignore that?

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
    I also got rather bored of Ash's childish personality during Johto, and felt it was time for him to grow up. Much prefer how Hoenn, DP, and now the XY series treats Ash like he's a young teen rather than a clueless 10 year old, even if there's no actual aging in the series. Ash being a moron loses its luster, the point is to watch Ash grow and mature. He wasn't doing that in Johto.
    So you basically dont think Ash, Misty and Brock went through any character development in Johto. Despite end of it clearly showing each of them grew both as person and trainer withn friendship becoming stronger than ever before?
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 17th September 2014 at 11:56 AM.

  22. #72

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    We all have our opinions. Some people don't watch as intently as others. Most just seem to generalize and not look at the series in its whole. I don't see why anyone who started watching from the beginning would be watching for serious story telling and intense battles. That is not what Pokemon is. The first 5 seasons focused on creating a world and following a 10 year old as he ventured through it.
    Someone once told me that Misty's cameos in Advanced Generation help make it easier knowing that she is no longer a series regular. They couldn't have been more wrong. After she leaves behind Togepi she returns to her gym more alone than ever AND ON TOP OF THAT, her last cameo was in 2005. 2005!?!?!? ITS BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE ONE OF THE CAST WHO STARTED THE SHOW WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW!?!?

    Why do we even watch Pokemon anymore

  23. #73
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    Its a shame the Pokemon on the cast in Johto were so boring for the most part. Misty and Brock kept their Kanto Pokemon (most of whom had no personality like Geodude/Zubat or Staryu/Goldeen) and they only made 1 new capture each. Its hard to believe Misty and Brock only captured one pokemon each for the entire span of Johto, (Pineco and Corsola), and Misty didn't even get Corsola till Johto was almost over! The writers wouldn't even have Misty and Brock capture Pokemon, how sad is that?

    And on top of that outside of picnic scenes where the gang let out all their pokemon, we would hardly see Misty or Brock's Pokemon to begin with. I remember forgetting which pokemon they had on their teams in Johto because we went such long gaps without them doing anything. Most of the time it felt like they didn't have pokemon.

    Poliwhirl was one of the few Misty pokemon that got development in Johto, while the others were just stagnant and used for Team Rocket blast-offs of picnic scenes. Corsola came way too late too, Johto only had like 40 episodes left and most of them were Ash-centric episodes so Misty didn't do much.

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