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Thread: Naruto: Post Timeskip Discussion (Warning Intense Spoilers!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    You want Trolldara back? We finally got rid of him. Personally I don't think I even care enough about the character to see him get closure or redeemed. He'll probably come back after Kaguya is defeated...sadly. I never liked real Madara that much. The war was bad but when he came into the story it just got worse.
    He needs redemption though given Kishi's philosophy and maybe he'll know a way to stop the Infinite Tsukuyomi since he cast it in the first place.

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    Did I miss something or did obito get his other sharingan back from madara?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannydstk View Post
    Did I miss something or did obito get his other sharingan back from madara?
    I think Naruto re-created it with his sage powers while he was reviving Obito before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannydstk View Post
    Did I miss something or did obito get his other sharingan back from madara?
    While in Obito's Sharingan Dimension, Madara swapped Kakashi's Sharigan in him with Obito's Rinnegan, both regaining both their original eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannydstk View Post
    Did I miss something or did obito get his other sharingan back from madara?
    Naruto can regrow things. Just like he regrew Kakashi's old eye. He works miracles now. Remember when this series was about ninjas?
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    Sorry for the late response, but my computer was acting up and I couldn't get online til today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    What actions? Well there's being Pain/Nagato's boss and commanding him from the shadows, starting the war, gaining the alliance of Sasuke and through him and his team got Eight-Tails leg and got rid of Danzo. Even if Killer Bee escaped, he got the Eight-Tail leg, which proved to be useful in the end.
    But all of Nagato's actions and all of Sasuke's actions were done for themselves. Obito benefitting is not the same as taking the actions himself. So while I was wrong for not including the declaration of war, the overall point remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    If you found Nagato, Danzo, Orochimaru, and real Madara better villains then Obito as fake Madara, then good for you. Heck, I think Pain would have been a great series final villain. Better then any of the emo Uchihas. But it really doesn't effect my argument at all, which is Obito as Fakedara was being built up as the main/final villain of the war. Unlike Pain/Nagato, Obito took orders from nobody and he was the one calling all the shots. And even with Kabutomaru's advantage over Obito, he still was cautious about their partnership. Everything about Madara's legacy was put on Obito until the real Madara got summoned. And by the time real Madara came everything was done. All that was left was to kill the enemy and that's really all Madara's done. Battle. Naruto and friends don't even know the real Madara, because he's so last minute. He's just a generic villain that popped up that they have to put down because he wants to take over the world. At least with Obito, he made it personal with Naruto and crew by gaining Sasuke on his side, and literally throwing it in Team Seven's face.
    But he really wasn't. Sure, you could say that he seemed like the final villain during the summit arc, but not the war arc because shortly after it began we got reintroduced to Kabuto who took charge over him, which led to Madara. Obito took orders from a bunch of people. Even setting him taking orders from Madara aside, he was shown taking orders from both Itachi and Kabuto. And he was never really shown calling the shots: Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke, and Kabuto all had their own plans they were working towards. The only person who Obito was acting a boss to was Kisame, and that's still kind of confusing. And everything wasn't done, which was my point. After Nagato got killed and Obito took over, basically nothing got accomplished. If it hadn't been for Kabuto, Obito would have lost in a single day without getting any closer to completing the plan. So by that logic, Kabuto is more of the final villain then Obito. And note that Madara didn't just come in and take the prize, but also come in and clean up the mess that Obito made for the plan to actually get done. But things didn't become personal until after Obito was revealed. That's one of the major issues with that whole thing, that despite apparently having deep personal issues with Konoha, they never got mentioned or shown until near the end. And Madara represents a metaphysical threat, he's the living embodiment of everything that was wrong with the current system. Thus the reason he took center stage while Obito was sent off elsewhere with Kakashi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    I'm trying not to make this long, because I'm just repeating myself. Up until Madara got summoned, Obito was built as Madara and the series main villain. Whether you find another villain more interesting or powerful, doesn't matter because Obito was still being built as the villain to take down to stop the war. All that changed when Madara came, and so Kishi took the main villain plot off Obito and put it on Madara. Now it's on Kaguya. And once again, I don't see why people should complain about Kaguya being the series final villain, when she's doing to Madara what he did to Obito as the fake Madara. That's my entire argument and nothing else matters.
    I too will try to keep this short. What Kishi was building up was Madara, giving us his actual history and feats. Obito using his name was just that, a different character using his name. It was hinted at well before the war arc that Obito was not really Madara, and that couple with the fact that he didn't really accomplish anything himself, is why many people had no problem with that switch, especially when Madara acted like a final villain. The point is, we knew "Madara" wasn't Madara well before the real Madara was introduced, so he was expected to appear somehow/someway (quite a few people had guessed that Madara was the Edo Tensei Kabuto used to scare Obito). On the otherhand, Kaguya came out of nowhere, with no mention of her before the last dozen of chapters and no hints of anyone being behind Madara til now. Not to mention that her introduction has caused quite a few retcons that make little to no sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    Sorry for the late response, but my computer was acting up and I couldn't get online til today.

    But all of Nagato's actions and all of Sasuke's actions were done for themselves. Obito benefitting is not the same as taking the actions himself. So while I was wrong for not including the declaration of war, the overall point remains.

    But he really wasn't. Sure, you could say that he seemed like the final villain during the summit arc, but not the war arc because shortly after it began we got reintroduced to Kabuto who took charge over him, which led to Madara. Obito took orders from a bunch of people. Even setting him taking orders from Madara aside, he was shown taking orders from both Itachi and Kabuto. And he was never really shown calling the shots: Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke, and Kabuto all had their own plans they were working towards. The only person who Obito was acting a boss to was Kisame, and that's still kind of confusing. And everything wasn't done, which was my point. After Nagato got killed and Obito took over, basically nothing got accomplished. If it hadn't been for Kabuto, Obito would have lost in a single day without getting any closer to completing the plan. So by that logic, Kabuto is more of the final villain then Obito. And note that Madara didn't just come in and take the prize, but also come in and clean up the mess that Obito made for the plan to actually get done. But things didn't become personal until after Obito was revealed. That's one of the major issues with that whole thing, that despite apparently having deep personal issues with Konoha, they never got mentioned or shown until near the end. And Madara represents a metaphysical threat, he's the living embodiment of everything that was wrong with the current system. Thus the reason he took center stage while Obito was sent off elsewhere with Kakashi.

    I too will try to keep this short. What Kishi was building up was Madara, giving us his actual history and feats. Obito using his name was just that, a different character using his name. It was hinted at well before the war arc that Obito was not really Madara, and that couple with the fact that he didn't really accomplish anything himself, is why many people had no problem with that switch, especially when Madara acted like a final villain. The point is, we knew "Madara" wasn't Madara well before the real Madara was introduced, so he was expected to appear somehow/someway (quite a few people had guessed that Madara was the Edo Tensei Kabuto used to scare Obito). On the otherhand, Kaguya came out of nowhere, with no mention of her before the last dozen of chapters and no hints of anyone being behind Madara til now. Not to mention that her introduction has caused quite a few retcons that make little to no sense.
    I wasn't sure if I wanted to reply to this or not. This is a old argument, and I pretty much stand by everything I already said and I don't feel like repeating myself. I'm only addressing a few things. Obito used both Nagato and Sasuke. Nagato was always Obito's pawn. Pretty much everyone acknowledges it. Nagato only broke away when he revived Konoha's dead. Sasuke, whether you want to see it or not, helped Obito get a piece of Eight-Tails which ultimately helped the bad guys. It doesn't matter if Sasuke had his own agenda. Obito sent Sasuke on a mission and he got something out of it that proved important to the bad guys. And he even sent him after Danzo. Even if Sasuke was planning to kill Danzo himself, it was Obito who sent Sasuke directly at Danzo which resulted in Danzo's death. Sasuke was a useful tool to Obito.

    Obito made it personal with Naruto and Team Seven long before his mask broke off. It got personal right after Naruto defeated Pain, and Obito went to talk with Naruto, Kakashi, and Yamato. He basically taunted Naruto that He had Sasuke, and it only got worse after the Danzo fight, when he appeared with Sasuke and told Team Seven he would send Sasuke to fight Naruto. As the fake Madara, Obito made this battle way more personal then the real Madara ever did. The only character real Madara has history with are two dead Hokage.


    And none of this changes the fact that Obito was built up as the final villain. Who announced the Moons Eye Plan? Who started the war? Who turned Sasuke into a full villain after the Itachi battle? Obito as fake Madara. And all of Madara's legacy was built on Obito until the real Madara showed up and took it all for himself and he took the main villain spot away from Obito. It's no different then what Kaguya did to Madara. I see no real difference besides the name. At the end of the day you still have a villain who was not the villain Kishi was building up in the end.
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    Sorry to break away from this discussion, but is the series on break this week?
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    Can we go back to Madara, please?

    Kaguya is yawn-inducingly boring. Why doesn't she say more than one line per chapter?

    And why does Black Zetsu keep ordering her around?

    You'd think that Kishi would stop his piss-poor treatment of his female characters at some point, but I guess not even the final final boss is immune to this.

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    Personally I prefer Kaguya not talking. After near two years of Trolldara's endless, generic, boring overlord talk, this is a nice break. I like that Kaguya does not talk. We know what she wants, we know how strong she is, she doesn't need to talk. I don't mind Black Zetsu talking for her either. Anything over Trolldara. Ugh, I hope he never comes back.

    As far as the new chapter goes, Kaguya's starting to look a little like bulked up Tayuya with those horns. How funny if they were related or something. I also liked how we got to see some classic Naruto action in this. This actually made this feel like a Naruto battle. I'm shocked. Overall the chapter was just more of the same really. Obito's teaming up with Sakura. Kishi's gotta find a way to make us believe Sakura is actually needed in this fight by having her and Obito try and save Sasuke. I think I know where this is leading. I'm bracing myself for it. I'm amazed Obito has lasted this long. Good for you, Obito. And Kakashi I guess is just going to sit this one out. Unlike Sakura, Kakashi isn't getting a forced push. Overall decent chapter.

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    So what does everyone think happened to Naruto? Did Kaguya kill a clone or has our main character really met his fate? Is it possible that there is so much chakra dispersed to the clones that one of them has now become the new Naruto? Interested to see where next chapter goes with this.
    Last edited by XanderCage; 9th July 2014 at 4:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lolipiece View Post
    Can we go back to Madara, please?

    Kaguya is yawn-inducingly boring. Why doesn't she say more than one line per chapter?

    And why does Black Zetsu keep ordering her around?

    You'd think that Kishi would stop his piss-poor treatment of his female characters at some point, but I guess not even the final final boss is immune to this.
    At least Kaguya is not consitenly talking and more fighting the main charather



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    So Kaguya got "trolled". Considering how she got here in the first place this is delightfully karmic.
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    Kaguya's a mediocre fighter who relies too much on dimensional warping imo. I liked that the Gobi at least got a cameo and that the Shadow Clone jutsu was used to its fullest extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorde View Post
    Kaguya's a mediocre fighter who relies too much on dimensional warping imo. I liked that the Gobi at least got a cameo and that the Shadow Clone jutsu was used to its fullest extent.
    I think Kishi's just run out of how broken he can make characters. I mean Trolldara broke the scale alone on just how cheap a character can be. I bet there's literally nothing left for Kaguya. Unless she can like kill people by just thinking it. What more uber hax stuff can this series throw at us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolipiece View Post
    Can we go back to Madara, please?

    Kaguya is yawn-inducingly boring. Why doesn't she say more than one line per chapter?
    I completely agree. It just seems so slow and actionless even without her talking. God I even miss Sasuke.

    I'm hoping for an improvement with Naruto taking her on strategically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    I think Kishi's just run out of how broken he can make characters. I mean Trolldara broke the scale alone on just how cheap a character can be. I bet there's literally nothing left for Kaguya. Unless she can like kill people by just thinking it. What more uber hax stuff can this series throw at us?
    I agree. I wish Madara had been defeated without Kaguya's interruption. Kishi's just milking the war for all it's worth and it's beyond tiresome at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorde View Post
    I agree. I wish Madara had been defeated without Kaguya's interruption. Kishi's just milking the war for all it's worth and it's beyond tiresome at this point.
    I just don't want Madara to come back. Please just let that be the end of him. I hope he's dead, taken over, whatever. I don't see why he needs to be redeemed. He has zero connections with anyone in present day Konoha, so who's really going to care? Hashirama? He's already dead. What difference would that make?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    I just don't want Madara to come back. Please just let that be the end of him. I hope he's dead, taken over, whatever. I don't see why he needs to be redeemed. He has zero connections with anyone in present day Konoha, so who's really going to care? Hashirama? He's already dead. What difference would that make?
    Sasuke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lolipiece View Post
    Sasuke.

    They're both Indra's reincarnation.
    By blood? Yeah. Personal level? None.

    I think what Naruto did is that he made a WOOD CLONE. Which is regarded as the best Clone technique. o_O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazuki Mirai View Post
    By blood? Yeah. Personal level? None.

    I think what Naruto did is that he made a WOOD CLONE. Which is regarded as the best Clone technique. o_O
    LOL, you beat me to the punch. I was going to say the exact same thing. It's Madara's lack of connections that make me not care if he's redeemed or not. Say what you want about Obito as Fakedara, but at least he had over 20 volumes of interactions with all the important characters over the course of part 2.
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    Alright chapter, thought it still bothers me why clones can't be absorbed. Kaguya showing Kimimaro's bloodline was awesome though. I always loved that fighting style. Hopefully she shows more bone techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    I wasn't sure if I wanted to reply to this or not. This is a old argument, and I pretty much stand by everything I already said and I don't feel like repeating myself. I'm only addressing a few things. Obito used both Nagato and Sasuke. Nagato was always Obito's pawn. Pretty much everyone acknowledges it. Nagato only broke away when he revived Konoha's dead. Sasuke, whether you want to see it or not, helped Obito get a piece of Eight-Tails which ultimately helped the bad guys. It doesn't matter if Sasuke had his own agenda. Obito sent Sasuke on a mission and he got something out of it that proved important to the bad guys. And he even sent him after Danzo. Even if Sasuke was planning to kill Danzo himself, it was Obito who sent Sasuke directly at Danzo which resulted in Danzo's death. Sasuke was a useful tool to Obito.
    I never said Obito didn't use them, that's kind of the point. As I previously said, Obito never accomplished anything himself. It was always him taking advantage of other people's actions to succeed, which is a whole different thing then being the boss and calling the shots. The one time he was on his own, he didn't get anything achieved. And it was shown that Nagato wasn't as much of a pawn as Obito thought. Konan confirmed that they had their own plan going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    Obito made it personal with Naruto and Team Seven long before his mask broke off. It got personal right after Naruto defeated Pain, and Obito went to talk with Naruto, Kakashi, and Yamato. He basically taunted Naruto that He had Sasuke, and it only got worse after the Danzo fight, when he appeared with Sasuke and told Team Seven he would send Sasuke to fight Naruto. As the fake Madara, Obito made this battle way more personal then the real Madara ever did. The only character real Madara has history with are two dead Hokage.
    How was that personal? I mean, did any of that fuel Naruto's desire to beat Obito? Did it drive him to go after Obito? Not at all. Naruto choose to master the Kyuubi specifically because Sasuke challenged him, and he entered the war to stop his friends from dying. Obito was an afterthought, literally. Naruto and Kirabi ran into him by accident. As mentioned, Madara is the embodiment of the current ninja system, which is why he's center stage and Obito was sent off to settle things with Kakashi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    And none of this changes the fact that Obito was built up as the final villain. Who announced the Moons Eye Plan? Who started the war? Who turned Sasuke into a full villain after the Itachi battle? Obito as fake Madara. And all of Madara's legacy was built on Obito until the real Madara showed up and took it all for himself and he took the main villain spot away from Obito. It's no different then what Kaguya did to Madara. I see no real difference besides the name. At the end of the day you still have a villain who was not the villain Kishi was building up in the end.
    For a single arc! You keep ignoring that as soon as the war arc began, Obito once again took second stage to Kabuto, well before Madara was revealed. And by the point of the summit, Madara's legacy wasn't on Obito anymore because it began before he was given the name and we were given several hints that Obito wasn't Madara several arcs before Madara was revealed. And no difference? Can you point to where it got implied that Kaguya would make an appearance? Can you point to where it was implied that Madara wasn't the mastermind? But most importantly, can you point to the reason why a new villain was needed? It was clear why Obito had to be replaced even before Madara came along. There's also the lack of any compelling personality, which is causing the plot to lag.

    Also, Sasuke didn't turn full villain til the summit.
    Last edited by TsukiMirage; 11th July 2014 at 8:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    For a single arc! You keep ignoring that as soon as the war arc began, Obito once again took second stage to Kabuto, well before Madara was revealed. And by the point of the summit, Madara's legacy wasn't on Obito anymore because it began before he was given the name and we were given several hints that Obito wasn't Madara several arcs before Madara was revealed. And no difference? Can you point to where it got implied that Kaguya would make an appearance? Can you point to where it was implied that Madara wasn't the mastermind? But most importantly, can you point to the reason why a new villain was needed? It was clear why Obito had to be replaced even before Madara came along. There's also the lack of any compelling personality, which is causing the plot to lag.

    Also, Sasuke didn't turn full villain til the summit.
    Clear... to who? Until Madara came along and Obito was humanized, he was doing just fine as a prospective main antagonist. I never once got the feeling that anybody needed to be pulling his strings.

    Also, arguing when Sasuke went full villain is rather moot; whether he went full villain while hunting Killer Bee or when he went to the summit, it was Obito revealing Itachi's history that gave him the push. That was the main point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    LOL, you beat me to the punch. I was going to say the exact same thing. It's Madara's lack of connections that make me not care if he's redeemed or not. Say what you want about Obito as Fakedara, but at least he had over 20 volumes of interactions with all the important characters over the course of part 2.
    Obito may have had better interactions with the main characters, but Madara was the better villain in my opinion because he actually met the hype and surpassed it with his hax imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorde View Post
    Obito may have had better interactions with the main characters, but Madara was the better villain in my opinion because he actually met the hype and surpassed it with his hax imo.
    So basically because he's a troll? I don't like that Tobi/Fakedara turned out to be Obito, I think that ruined the entire Madara character for me, but I stand by that Fakedara was way better villain material. They could have overpowered Obito too, and at one point they did. But Obito has one thing Madara never had. Connections. If Fakedara had been the real Madara and just got overpowered during his fight in the war I wouldn't have such a problem with this. The problem is the real Madara is so last minute and is literally a villain Naruto just met that he has to put down and this is suppose to be the final villain, over a guy who actually got proper buildup as a villain. He even needs Kabutomaru to tell him who Naruto is, because he's never seen him before. Madara is just that last generic super boss that appears after hours were spent building up another villain only to find out there's somebody else you have deal with. This is why I didn't mind Kaguya. The real Madara basically falls into the same category as Kaguya. So it's not like Kishi switched the series final villain before. I hope Madara stays dead or whatever. He's probably the character in the Naruto series I dislike most of all. The only good thing about him was the challenge he presented. Other then that he's a boring, generic, overlord and I am glad I don't have to read any more chapters of his speeches.

    Edit: TsukiMirage, Sasuke turned full villain when he declared he was going to kill Konoha, that was right after Obito told him Itachi's story. Sasuke was full on villain mode and every action he did was a villain. Attacking Killer Bee was a international crime and got the Gokage together. Sasuke didn't turn villain at the summit, he already was a full on villain, no matter what the reason.
    Last edited by Platinum fan.; 11th July 2014 at 9:52 PM.
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