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Thread: Naruto: The end is here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    If I got the chapter right... Madara turned "evil" because things didn't go his way. Wasn't gonna be head leader, was hated by his best friends brother, and felt his own clan didn't respect him... why is it that villains never get a good reason
    i agree it was a stupid reason to be evil :/ atleast give him a good reason... like his best friends brother goes out and slaughters more of his clan and his best friend does nothing about it.. sure it makes the hokages look like the bad ones but it be better then this

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    Interesting chapter, nice to see how Konoha got it's name.
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    All this chapter proved was Tobirama was essentially the turning point for almost every single incident and plot arch focused on in this series.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    If I got the chapter right... Madara turned "evil" because things didn't go his way. Wasn't gonna be head leader, was hated by his best friends brother, and felt his own clan didn't respect him... why is it that villains never get a good reason
    Why is that a bad reason? He's selfish, but he's also hated by everyone but his best friend. That can really screw a person up. And with what we've seen of Madara, he's pretty screwed up after all.

    It's way better than Sasuke's reason. It's almost as if Hashirama is telling Sasuke that Madara has an actual reason to be what he's turned into, and Sasuke's turn to power is childish in retrospect. But in the end, neither Hashirama or Naruto could save their friend from the darkness...

    The only thing that I don't like about this chapter was Madara sounding whiny whenever he made Hashi choose between him or Tobirama. Kind of sounds like a bitter ex-girlfriend or something. I really like how Konoha was named and the reactions between the two during that part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingzx View Post
    i agree it was a stupid reason to be evil :/ atleast give him a good reason... like his best friends brother goes out and slaughters more of his clan and his best friend does nothing about it.. sure it makes the hokages look like the bad ones but it be better then this
    Hard to believe Obito and Sasuke have better reasons yet aren't nearly as haxed up powerful like Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Shneak View Post
    Why is that a bad reason? He's selfish, but he's also hated by everyone but his best friend. That can really screw a person up. And with what we've seen of Madara, he's pretty screwed up after all.

    It's way better than Sasuke's reason. It's almost as if Hashirama is telling Sasuke that Madara has an actual reason to be what he's turned into, and Sasuke's turn to power is childish in retrospect. But in the end, neither Hashirama or Naruto could save their friend from the darkness...

    The only thing that I don't like about this chapter was Madara sounding whiny whenever he made Hashi choose between him or Tobirama. Kind of sounds like a bitter ex-girlfriend or something. I really like how Konoha was named and the reactions between the two during that part.
    Well I'm not saying it's a bad reason, just not a truly good one. He couldn't possibly change his ways at all to make people like him? Seriously though, you think having your entire clan killed by your only brother is a lame reason, but not being liked is a perfectly legit reason...
    Last edited by Joltik-Kid; 27th March 2013 at 9:50 PM.
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  6. #21881
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    Hard to believe Obito and Sasuke have better reasons yet aren't nearly as haxed up powerful like Madara


    Well I'm not saying it's a bad reason, just not a truly good one. He couldn't possibly change his ways at all to make people like him? Seriously though, you think having your entire clan killed by your only brother is a lame reason, but not being liked is a perfectly legit reason...
    It's not amazing, but it fits Madara's persona. He's selfish and stubborn and he wouldn't go out of the way to make people like him. He expects them to like them for who he is.

    Sasuke suffered, but his lust for power was primarily to use against Itachi. He went too far and lost it by joining the Akatsuki and going after other Leaf higher-ups. I don't think he really cares for his clan's sake, but more for personal retribution.

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    I still don't like the way Madara is being portrayed in these flashbacks. I mean I almost feel sorry for him, which I shouldn't feel since Madara's a major villain and I don't see how he could ever be redeemed anyway. I don't even think Naruto's talk no jutsu would be enough to change him, and even if it was I'd be really upset with such a sappy ending.

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    I wonder how bored Suigetsu is. He's probably still hiding behind Orochimaru in fear.
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    This latest chapter was alright. I was wondering how they would solve the "Kill your brother" scene and they solved it. At first I thought it was just one big Sharingan illusion, Madara stopping Hashirama from killing himself seemed to fake at first, but I guess it all really happened. The entire time I was waiting for a Uchiha backstabbing but they really seem to try and make Tobirama the villain and not Madara. I think that is a load of bull, I don't mind a edgy Hokage, we all know they need one, but come on. Am I expected to believe that there is now a chance to save both Obito and Madara? I suppose when Naruto "Narutoizes" them they bring back Neji, like Nagato revived the fallen ninjas during the Pain assault on Konoha. Still this chapter held my interest. No complaints from me again.
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    A better chapter then the last, though still badly paced and rushed. Don't think it's hard to say that Tobirama caused most of the problem. Seem pretty obvious that Hashirama was attempting to give Madara a reason to be protective of more then just his clan in hopes of keeping the peace. Anyway, so far the way we were told things went down have turnt out false, so can't predict what will come next apart from their inevitable final showdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shneak View Post
    The only thing that I don't like about this chapter was Madara sounding whiny whenever he made Hashi choose between him or Tobirama. Kind of sounds like a bitter ex-girlfriend or something. I really like how Konoha was named and the reactions between the two during that part.
    I think the point was that Hashirama kept taking advice from Tobirama, and Madara didn't truly believe that Hashirama would favor him over Tobirama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    A better chapter then the last, though still badly paced and rushed.
    How so? The've spent what 5-6 chapters on it already. Now for me PERSONALLY, I think it makes sense to have quite a few chapters on why the manga could even exist at all, but when you consider how many people say they want Kishimoto to hurry up and get back to modern era, I think he's doing a great job finding that middle balance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltik-Kid View Post
    If I got the chapter right... Madara turned "evil" because things didn't go his way. Wasn't gonna be head leader, was hated by his best friends brother, and felt his own clan didn't respect him... why is it that villains never get a good reason
    I think you got the chapter wrong, I know what Madara said at the end, but the 'pussyfooting'-line clearly suggests to me that Madara had this notion of Yin and Yang in constant struggle from the getgo. He clearly states that he has always known that they are each others Yin and Yang and thus have always been in a constant struggle, but he found that he was 'pussyfooting' around all the time.

    I think Madara always had a competitive 'bloodlust' in him - even from the start with the stone skipping - and therefore always already felt that he was 'in conflict' or in 'struggle' with Hashirama, even when technically cooperating.

    Hence why I think that - while Tobirama's pushing the Uchiha in a corner played a part - the bloodlust has always been there, and that Tobirama just killed off any hope of a better future, so Madara forsake hope, felt that the pussyfooting on such a small scale would go nowhere eventually, and said that they should beat around the bush and go head to head against each other. So he went back to pursueing what he liked most: that competitive vieing for superiority, which in Madara's case is equal to bloodlust.

    The 'evilness' in Madara has always been there, diminished to 'pussyfooting' by Hashirama's talk-no-jutsu, while Madara accepted it as a minor struggle, but he could still live with that, because he lives of that 'struggle'. That's the big hint with Madara and his 'true dream', he had that since the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by iFi Salamander View Post
    All this chapter proved was Tobirama was essentially the turning point for almost every single incident and plot arch focused on in this series.
    The kage that nobody cared for obviously was going to play an equal part in the history. It would've been weird if he was just a strong guy, but the turning point between Hashirama and Tobirama was clearly the defining moment for the creation of Konoha for as we know it today.

    - Hashirama (and Madara) set out the borders parameters.
    - Tobirama structured it.
    - Hiruzen did protect it while carrying over Tobirama's fears.
    - Minato died young, and couldn't really do anything.
    - Tsunade: Lets be honest, she has done little structurally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shneak View Post
    It's not amazing, but it fits Madara's persona. He's selfish and stubborn and he wouldn't go out of the way to make people like him. He expects them to like them for who he is.

    Sasuke suffered, but his lust for power was primarily to use against Itachi. He went too far and lost it by joining the Akatsuki and going after other Leaf higher-ups. I don't think he really cares for his clan's sake, but more for personal retribution.
    See, the difference is that while Obito and Sasuke have gone haywire for a lust of 'retribution'. Madara has gone haywire because of an internal lust for strife and conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    A better chapter then the last, though still badly paced and rushed. Don't think it's hard to say that Tobirama caused most of the problem. Seem pretty obvious that Hashirama was attempting to give Madara a reason to be protective of more then just his clan in hopes of keeping the peace. Anyway, so far the way we were told things went down have turnt out false, so can't predict what will come next apart from their inevitable final showdown.

    I think the point was that Hashirama kept taking advice from Tobirama, and Madara didn't truly believe that Hashirama would favor him over Tobirama.
    Didn't we see that at the beginning of this flashback arc?

    You're correct about the second bit though, that's why Madara said that he shouldn't have given him the choice between Tobirama or himself. And it wasn't even a case off Madara or Tobirama for Hashirama, but a case of the glass always being half empty for Madara.
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    I think this will be solved when Hashirama arrives to the battlefield and rekindles his lost love with Madara. jk

    After seeing this flashback I wonder if Hashi really is stronger then the new Madara or if Madara is just blinded by his old obsession with him. We'll know when they meet again.

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    I really thought that tobirama would commit suicide then and there
    I let out a sigh of relief when he didn't

    Madara becomes evil... dam dam dam.....

    In this chapter Tobirama is being such a jerk. What's wrong with him?

    Wondering though, who is the stronger of the two? Hashirama seems more likely
    Last edited by Icarus©; 28th March 2013 at 6:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Icarus View Post
    I really thought that tobirama would commit suicide then and there
    I let out a sigh of relief when he didn't

    Madara becomes evil... dam dam dam.....

    In this chapter Tobirama is being such a jerk. What's wrong with him?

    Wondering though, who is the stronger of the two? Tobirama seems more likely
    He is justified he has lived a life of war and hatred so of course he would still hold prejudice towards the Uchiha. Actually it was well stated that Madara and Hashirama were the greatest of their time. So I don't think Tobirama has a chance against Madara.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    He is justified he has lived a life of war and hatred so of course he would still hold prejudice towards the Uchiha. Actually it was well stated that Madara and Hashirama were the greatest of their time. So I don't think Tobirama has a chance against Madara.
    Sorry mispellt >.> i meant hashirama.
    Yeah its likely, but regardless its still a shame.
    Hashirama could have dealt with it at least for a while
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    Interesting to see how Hashirama and Madara are as adults. Even when their friendship almost rekindled and they were playfully naming the village and its leader, Hashirama had more power but could still act immature (in a funny way), but Madara still felt more stoic than he was as a kid. He definitely changed a lot.

    Every team in Naruto's line has someone go to the darkness: Hashirama (Madara), Hiruzen (Danzo), Jiraiya (Orochimaru), I dunno about Minato, Kakashi (Obito), and of course Naruto (Sasuke). I suppose the Uchiha among those are the ones who've become the biggest problems, but in any case I wonder if Naruto is supposed to end this pattern.

    Edit: Well I guess not all of them were team members the way they have three-man teams now, but still.
    Last edited by Kamex; 28th March 2013 at 7:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Icarus View Post
    I really thought that tobirama would commit suicide then and there
    I let out a sigh of relief when he didn't
    We already know that he didn't die until after he became the Second Hokage though, so there was no way he was going to die before that. It would've been a huge plot hole.
    Last edited by Lorde; 28th March 2013 at 8:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamex View Post
    Interesting to see how Hashirama and Madara are as adults. Even when their friendship almost rekindled and they were playfully naming the village and its leader, Hashirama had more power but could still act immature (in a funny way), but Madara still felt more stoic than he was as a kid. He definitely changed a lot.

    Every team in Naruto's line has someone go to the darkness: Hashirama (Madara), Hiruzen (Danzo), Jiraiya (Orochimaru), I dunno about Minato, Kakashi (Obito), and of course Naruto (Sasuke). I suppose the Uchiha among those are the ones who've become the biggest problems, but in any case I wonder if Naruto is supposed to end this pattern.

    Edit: Well I guess not all of them were team members the way they have three-man teams now, but still.
    An even bigger pattern is that Hiruzen trained Jiraiya's team and was killed by Orochimaru while Minato trained Kakashi's team and was technically killed by Obito (Obito brought the fox in and Minato had to sacrifice himself to stop it, so I'm counting that). All that's left is for Sasuke to kill Kakashi and the pattern will be complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokeMaster366 View Post
    An even bigger pattern is that Hiruzen trained Jiraiya's team and was killed by Orochimaru while Minato trained Kakashi's team and was technically killed by Obito (Obito brought the fox in and Minato had to sacrifice himself to stop it, so I'm counting that). All that's left is for Sasuke to kill Kakashi and the pattern will be complete.
    I didn't think of that. That would be pretty crazy though, Sasuke killing Kakashi. Not sure if he can be redeemed from that this late into the story though haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamex View Post
    Interesting to see how Hashirama and Madara are as adults. Even when their friendship almost rekindled and they were playfully naming the village and its leader, Hashirama had more power but could still act immature (in a funny way), but Madara still felt more stoic than he was as a kid. He definitely changed a lot.

    Every team in Naruto's line has someone go to the darkness: Hashirama (Madara), Hiruzen (Danzo), Jiraiya (Orochimaru), I dunno about Minato, Kakashi (Obito), and of course Naruto (Sasuke). I suppose the Uchiha among those are the ones who've become the biggest problems, but in any case I wonder if Naruto is supposed to end this pattern.

    Edit: Well I guess not all of them were team members the way they have three-man teams now, but still.
    I think Orochomaru is the biggest problem in the long run. Giving Sasuke the curse, attacking the village and killing the third, the sound four, and the Kabuto Edo Tensei business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamex View Post
    Interesting to see how Hashirama and Madara are as adults. Even when their friendship almost rekindled and they were playfully naming the village and its leader, Hashirama had more power but could still act immature (in a funny way), but Madara still felt more stoic than he was as a kid. He definitely changed a lot.

    Every team in Naruto's line has someone go to the darkness: Hashirama (Madara), Hiruzen (Danzo), Jiraiya (Orochimaru), I dunno about Minato, Kakashi (Obito), and of course Naruto (Sasuke). I suppose the Uchiha among those are the ones who've become the biggest problems, but in any case I wonder if Naruto is supposed to end this pattern.

    Edit: Well I guess not all of them were team members the way they have three-man teams now, but still.
    I don't really consider Danzo as having gone to the darkness. He did what he thought was best for the village and lived for the village.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jb View Post
    I think Orochomaru is the biggest problem in the long run. Giving Sasuke the curse, attacking the village and killing the third, the sound four, and the Kabuto Edo Tensei business.
    I thought about that, but I feel like Orochimaru isn't as influential as he seemed to be in Part I, even considering his temporary influence on Sasuke or current events. Madara and Obito have the world at their fingertips at the moment (and have secretly been behind all kinds of criminal incidents for a long time). Even Sasuke has a great deal of potential to be a problem, although he admittedly hasn't done much permanent damage if any yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Lucario View Post
    I don't really consider Danzo as having gone to the darkness. He did what he thought was best for the village and lived for the village.
    Well sure, but it depends on what your definition of "going into the darkness" is, and where you draw the line. Technically, most villains - if not all of them - are well-intentioned (even Madara as we see now). They just have very extreme, unfair idealism leading them astray. But I see your point.
    Last edited by Kamex; 28th March 2013 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamex View Post
    I didn't think of that. That would be pretty crazy though, Sasuke killing Kakashi. Not sure if he can be redeemed from that this late into the story though haha.
    Did I forget to mention that in your list of light/dark counterparts, the dark half always manages to outlive the light half? Bleeding hearts DO run out of blood early after all. Maybe it would be best if Naruto and Sasuke just killed each other, if only to stop the chain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Raiga- View Post
    How so? The've spent what 5-6 chapters on it already. Now for me PERSONALLY, I think it makes sense to have quite a few chapters on why the manga could even exist at all, but when you consider how many people say they want Kishimoto to hurry up and get back to modern era, I think he's doing a great job finding that middle balance.
    Well for me personally, I was hoping to learn about more then just the three characters in this flashback. We really haven't gotten anything new outside of their events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locormus View Post
    Didn't we see that at the beginning of this flashback arc?
    Well I meant that it seems like there's gonna be something else inbetween Madara leaving and him fight that last fight with Hashirama.
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