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Thread: Naruto: The end is here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    The manipulation of Sasuke still stands. Sasuke went to Orochimaru for power, even though Sasuke ended up winning over Orochimaru, Orochimaru already predicted Sasuke would come to him. It was his curse mark that planted the idea that Orochimaru could give Sasuke more power if he went over to his side. And it's true Sasuke did manipulate Orochimaru in the end, Orochimaru still got Sasuke out of Konoha. Tobi used Sasuke to attack Killer Bee and later the Gokage summit. Sasuke might have had his own agenda in mind but it was still Obito/Tobi who guided Sasuke to these two points. Sasuke had no business with Killer Bee whatsoever until Obito pointed him in that direction as he did with the Gokage. Sasuke failed both those missions and Obito even had to save him, but Sasuke did not use Obito the way he did Orochimaru. When I say these guys manipulated him, I mean to say they got Sasuke to fight for their side and they did. Sasuke fought for both Orochimaru and Obito and that cannot be ignored.
    But it wasn't manipulation. Manipulation would have been having Sasuke do something without knowing the reason or without knowing that was what was planned, neither of which fits what happen with either Orochimaru or Obito. Sasuke went to Orochimaru cause he literally sent a group over there to bring Sasuke to him. Had Orochimaru not sent the Sound Four, there would have been no reason for Sasuke to even consider the idea, an idea that he was shown oppose to until getting royally beat down. Manipulation would be what Itachi did, who got Sasuke to play into his hands without even realizing he was playing into Itachi's hands.

    Obito using him is quite different from manipulating him. I agree that both Obito and Orochimaru used Sasuke, but Sasuke got more out of both of those. He used Obito not only to extract his revenge, but also to gain EMS, while all Obito got out of it was one of the Hachibi's tentacles. Sasuke fought for his own side. It was merely that they all had similar goals, so both sides benefited. But it was made clear with both Orochimaru and Obito that Sasuke was only playing along until he got what he wanted. His intentions to betray them was there from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    As for the unlikable and nasty stuff, I mean his personality. Sasuke was always very popular in Konoha's school for being a jerk. The girls just ate that up and he had a legion of followers. Sasuke was popular for being this handsome mysterious lone wolf, but outside Sakura, none of them were really his friends or saw the cruel side of Sasuke. I don't hate Sasuke, I actually like him, but I don't think he qualifies as a Hokage. He started to mellow out and become more friendly when Kakashi started doing one on one training with him and he actually felt like he cared for his team and felt human. That was when Sasuke was actually starting to evolve then they ruined it with this whole Darth Uchiha stuff.
    I really can't recall anything nasty or cruel actions Sasuke showed back then. He was apathetic, but aside from talking down to Naruto, he wasn't exactly mean. I mean, what you described fits Neji more then Sasuke. I agree that Sauske's far from the most qualified to be Hokage, but I would say he's more qualified then Naruto for the position. Both would be far beneath Shikamaru and Kakashi.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    Sasuke clearly underestimated Deidara considering how lightly he took him during the fight and was nearly killed for assuming he won the battle and taking Deidara like a joke in the end.
    Sasuke didn't "take Deidara like a joke" at the end. The whole point was that Sasuke never intended to kill Deidara, something he says before the fight began. He wanted to question Deidara. Sasuke shut down his Sharingan towards the end because Deidara made it clear that it was pissing him off, so obviously keeping it active was detrimental to getting any answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    He clearly charged into a fight with all of them. Zetsu or not Sasuke would have tried to fight them all either way. He was reckless with how he went to the summit without forming a logical plan outside of sneak in and kill Danzo who would have been surrounded by a ton of armed and skilled shinobi. In the fight with Kabuto he constantly let himself open to attacks from Kabuto and had it not been for Itachi would have been killed. It can be argued that he saved Itachi as well but then again Itachi was already dead so unless Kabuto attempted to put him back under his control then I doubt Itachi was in any real danger. He recklessly rushed to attack the Ten Tails despite Naruto's warnings of not trying to exterminate it and at that point only a handful of people were fighting the Ten-Tails.
    Sasuke and his team were sneaking out. If Sasuke had intended to fight at the summit, then there would have been no reaosn for him not to attack Danzo the moment he saw him, yet instead of fighting right then and there, Team Taka left. And they did have a plan, locate danzo and then ambush him on the way back to Konoha, which they went over right before entering the summit.

    As for Kabuto, the only time I can recall that he was open to attack was during the White Rage technique, and I don't know how that would qualify. And Kabuto was attempting to take back control of Itachi, quite early on in that battle.

    Naruto's "warning" was completely stupid and there was no reason to listen to it. Naruto didn't explain anything. If anything, had the Juubi been taken care of fast enough, the war would have been over and a lot of people wouldn't be dead. I would point out that Sasuke wasn't the only one fighting to kill the Juubi. So were the Hokages, so clearly it wasn't a bad decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    That didn't stop Sasuke from attacking them without any plan and abandoning his teammates did it. Naruto never outright said he would star a war with them he just warned them about the consequences their actions could bring them. I'm not saying he's right because quite frankly he's wrong as well as Sasuke but when it comes to the two of them Naruto is the lesser of two evils sort to speak.
    He had a plan, it just didn't go as expected. Naruto had been tasked with ending the cycle of hatred, yet he made it clear that he would allow it to happen. And naruto is definitely the greater of the two evils. We're talking about a guy who despite knowing that Obito was using the handsigns to become the Juubi Jinchuuriki, something no one else was aware of, did nothing to stop him. While Sasuke rushed in like ordered by Hashirama, Naruto attempted to stop him, which made no sense since the entire goal was to stop the creation of the Juubi Jinchuuriki. He waited until afterward to explain things, instead of before when it would have been more helpful and could have allowed them to stop not only Obito's plan, but Madara's plan too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    But it wasn't manipulation. Manipulation would have been having Sasuke do something without knowing the reason or without knowing that was what was planned, neither of which fits what happen with either Orochimaru or Obito. Sasuke went to Orochimaru cause he literally sent a group over there to bring Sasuke to him. Had Orochimaru not sent the Sound Four, there would have been no reason for Sasuke to even consider the idea, an idea that he was shown oppose to until getting royally beat down. Manipulation would be what Itachi did, who got Sasuke to play into his hands without even realizing he was playing into Itachi's hands.

    Obito using him is quite different from manipulating him. I agree that both Obito and Orochimaru used Sasuke, but Sasuke got more out of both of those. He used Obito not only to extract his revenge, but also to gain EMS, while all Obito got out of it was one of the Hachibi's tentacles. Sasuke fought for his own side. It was merely that they all had similar goals, so both sides benefited. But it was made clear with both Orochimaru and Obito that Sasuke was only playing along until he got what he wanted. His intentions to betray them was there from the start.

    I really can't recall anything nasty or cruel actions Sasuke showed back then. He was apathetic, but aside from talking down to Naruto, he wasn't exactly mean. I mean, what you described fits Neji more then Sasuke. I agree that Sauske's far from the most qualified to be Hokage, but I would say he's more qualified then Naruto for the position. Both would be far beneath Shikamaru and Kakashi.

    Sasuke didn't "take Deidara like a joke" at the end. The whole point was that Sasuke never intended to kill Deidara, something he says before the fight began. He wanted to question Deidara. Sasuke shut down his Sharingan towards the end because Deidara made it clear that it was pissing him off, so obviously keeping it active was detrimental to getting any answers.

    Sasuke and his team were sneaking out. If Sasuke had intended to fight at the summit, then there would have been no reaosn for him not to attack Danzo the moment he saw him, yet instead of fighting right then and there, Team Taka left. And they did have a plan, locate danzo and then ambush him on the way back to Konoha, which they went over right before entering the summit.

    As for Kabuto, the only time I can recall that he was open to attack was during the White Rage technique, and I don't know how that would qualify. And Kabuto was attempting to take back control of Itachi, quite early on in that battle.

    Naruto's "warning" was completely stupid and there was no reason to listen to it. Naruto didn't explain anything. If anything, had the Juubi been taken care of fast enough, the war would have been over and a lot of people wouldn't be dead. I would point out that Sasuke wasn't the only one fighting to kill the Juubi. So were the Hokages, so clearly it wasn't a bad decision.

    He had a plan, it just didn't go as expected. Naruto had been tasked with ending the cycle of hatred, yet he made it clear that he would allow it to happen. And naruto is definitely the greater of the two evils. We're talking about a guy who despite knowing that Obito was using the handsigns to become the Juubi Jinchuuriki, something no one else was aware of, did nothing to stop him. While Sasuke rushed in like ordered by Hashirama, Naruto attempted to stop him, which made no sense since the entire goal was to stop the creation of the Juubi Jinchuuriki. He waited until afterward to explain things, instead of before when it would have been more helpful and could have allowed them to stop not only Obito's plan, but Madara's plan too.
    That does describe Neji. Sasuke still wasn't at all friendly at first. He was the jerk/loner/anti-hero who had a soft side that showed when it needed. He did warm up as part 1 went on. Neji was flat out bully, which was worse then Sasuke's lone wolf/jerk/anti-hero thing. Seriously before Naruto changed him, Neji would depress the heck out of you.

    But back on the Hokage topic, I don't think Naruto or Sasuke qualify right now. One thing that really stands out is when Naruto had the chance to take revenge on Nagato for killing Jiraiya, Kakashi, Shizune, and all those fodder ninja he didn't. He didn't forgive him but he let him live. Not very ninja like but it showed he's not controlled by his personal emotions.

    Sasuke had a similar moment with Danzo, and as we know he kills him for revenge. Now that is more ninja like, the only thing is he did it for his own reasons of emotion and sacrificed Karin to do it. It would be different if Karin was yelling at Sasuke to kill them both to take down Danzo for a mission or something, but Karin is pleading for Sasuke to save her and he doesn't. It was a betrayal sacrifice not one for the village or anything it was just so Sasuke could take out his revenge on Danzo. How can you trust a entire village to him to ensure to keep safe when he sacrifices his rabid fangirl? Sasuke turned his back on everyone who treated him well Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, Karin, so what would stop him from turning his back on Konoha's village? It's why despite feeling neither are suited for it long term, Naruto would make a better Hokage. But both are lacking. Naruto can't make harsh choices and Sasuke is probably never going to get Konoha's full support. He was a Akatsuki villain. That is hard to ignore.
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    naruto in order to become a good hokage he needs to become smart(outside of battle) learn that not everyone is going to change and become more serious
    sasuke needs to learn on how to rely on people, become less reckless,and become loyal

    pokemon is a kids anime do not expect an amazing story, if you do not fall into the shows demographic dont complain about it

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    @TsukiMage- I like Sasuke but it feels like you are trying to sugar coat his crimes and make it seem like he wasn't too blame for his actions.

    At the end of VS Deidara Sasuke clearly did underestimate considering how he just expected Deidara to give him answers and even let his guard down to the point where Deidara was able to activate C0 and would have killed him had it not been for Sasuke having Oricharmu's abilities.

    Nothing stopped him from leaving after his team was found out in the summit. If anything Sasuke staying and fighting just proved how easily he would have gone against his supposed plan if given the chance to.

    If Sasuke was a reliable ally Itachi wouldn't have been so hesitant to accept Sasuke as his partner to fight Kabuto. He knows how hot blooded and impulsive Sasuke gets and quite frankly Sasuke impatiences and recklessness would have cost him if Itachi didn't mellow him out.

    Nothing was going to stop Obito from gaining the 10 tails and at lest Naruto had the intent of saving the Bijuu instead of slaughtering them like Sasuke intended. I'm not defending Naruto but it's quite clear that from him and Sasuke that he's a more eligible candidate then Sasuke. The Kages were actually trying to subdue it not kill it. Never once did they imply that they were trying to kill it.

    His "plan" could have easily worked if he sticked whatever it was instead of recklessly slaughtering the samurai and trying to kill the Kumo and Sand ninjas. Everything at the point where Obito was trying to become the Jinchuriki was going by too fast even if Naruto explained it Obito would have just become the Jinchuriki while they were busy talking. They wouldn't be in the situation though if Sasuke didn't help Akatsuki in obtaining the Eight Tails chakra so by a chain of events Sasuke is too blame for them being in that situation to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tak310 View Post
    naruto in order to become a good hokage he needs to become smart(outside of battle) learn that not everyone is going to change and become more serious
    He seems to be just like Hashirama in terms of personality, and yet Hashirama was a great Hokage. I don't think a Hokage needs to be extremely intelligent; Shikamaru already expressed interest in helping Naruto as his adviser anyway, so Naruto doesn't need to have a lot of knowledge himself if he has smart people around him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed View Post
    He seems to be just like Hashirama in terms of personality, and yet Hashirama was a great Hokage. I don't think a Hokage needs to be extremely intelligent; Shikamaru already expressed interest in helping Naruto as his adviser anyway, so Naruto doesn't need to have a lot of knowledge himself if he has smart people around him.
    hashirama is the main reason this war is going on so naruto shouldnt be like him imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    But back on the Hokage topic, I don't think Naruto or Sasuke qualify right now. One thing that really stands out is when Naruto had the chance to take revenge on Nagato for killing Jiraiya, Kakashi, Shizune, and all those fodder ninja he didn't. He didn't forgive him but he let him live. Not very ninja like but it showed he's not controlled by his personal emotions.

    Sasuke had a similar moment with Danzo, and as we know he kills him for revenge. Now that is more ninja like, the only thing is he did it for his own reasons of emotion and sacrificed Karin to do it. It would be different if Karin was yelling at Sasuke to kill them both to take down Danzo for a mission or something, but Karin is pleading for Sasuke to save her and he doesn't. It was a betrayal sacrifice not one for the village or anything it was just so Sasuke could take out his revenge on Danzo. How can you trust a entire village to him to ensure to keep safe when he sacrifices his rabid fangirl? Sasuke turned his back on everyone who treated him well Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, Karin, so what would stop him from turning his back on Konoha's village? It's why despite feeling neither are suited for it long term, Naruto would make a better Hokage. But both are lacking. Naruto can't make harsh choices and Sasuke is probably never going to get Konoha's full support. He was a Akatsuki villain. That is hard to ignore.
    But that's hardly a fair comparison. Yeah Naruto spared Nagato, but that was after he was able to get everything out of his system by taking out the Paths, before the reveal that they were just puppets.

    Anyway, aside from the fact that such a situation was "out of character", there are times when such a sacrifice is necessary to ensure the peace. Just take a look at the Hyuuga Affair, where without such a sacrifice, Konoha would have been forced into war. Technically, the Uchiha Massacre was the same, a sacrifice for the greater good, though obviously in that case it wasn't a necessity. And then we have seen what happens when one doesn't do what was needed, such as Sarutobi killing Orochimaru or Minato allowing Kushina to sacrifice herself.

    As for why Sasuke would protect Konoha, that's because that's what Itachi desired, and Itachi is the one person Sasuke revered most of all. It ties right back to the original situation with Madara, where the point was electing him to give him something to defend. How much Akatsuki matters is questionable after the reveal that the villages were using their services.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    @TsukiMage- I like Sasuke but it feels like you are trying to sugar coat his crimes and make it seem like he wasn't too blame for his actions.
    I would hardly say I sugar coating anything, but you're faulting him for stuff that wasn't his fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    At the end of VS Deidara Sasuke clearly did underestimate considering how he just expected Deidara to give him answers and even let his guard down to the point where Deidara was able to activate C0 and would have killed him had it not been for Sasuke having Oricharmu's abilities.
    He had completely beaten Deidara, who was nearly out of chakra. Why should he not have expected that he could get some answers at that point? Deidara activating C0 would have happen regardless of what Sasuke was doing, and it was only escapable using Manda. The only way that Sasuke could have avoided that would have been to kill Deidara before that final clash, which would have defeated the entire point of fighting him in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    Nothing stopped him from leaving after his team was found out in the summit. If anything Sasuke staying and fighting just proved how easily he would have gone against his supposed plan if given the chance to.
    Except the fact that they were surrounded by samurai in a large building. Exactly how could they have gotten out? Run away with their backs open to attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    If Sasuke was a reliable ally Itachi wouldn't have been so hesitant to accept Sasuke as his partner to fight Kabuto. He knows how hot blooded and impulsive Sasuke gets and quite frankly Sasuke impatiences and recklessness would have cost him if Itachi didn't mellow him out.
    Itachi was hesitant about telling Sasuke the truth about what had happen, it had nothing to do with fighting together. Itachi was the one who suggested that they fight together. And I would point out that Sasuke "saved" Itachi more then Itachi saved him during that battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    Nothing was going to stop Obito from gaining the 10 tails and at lest Naruto had the intent of saving the Bijuu instead of slaughtering them like Sasuke intended. I'm not defending Naruto but it's quite clear that from him and Sasuke that he's a more eligible candidate then Sasuke. The Kages were actually trying to subdue it not kill it. Never once did they imply that they were trying to kill it.
    Obito being killed would have stopped him, and the Bijuus are even suppose to exist. Their existences has only brought trouble. And how exactly is launching explosive tags, throwing it's own blast right back at it, and trying to land Sage powered blast subduing? Sasuke outright mentioned getting rid of the Juubi after Minato struck down Obito and Minato didn't say any differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    His "plan" could have easily worked if he sticked whatever it was instead of recklessly slaughtering the samurai and trying to kill the Kumo and Sand ninjas. Everything at the point where Obito was trying to become the Jinchuriki was going by too fast even if Naruto explained it Obito would have just become the Jinchuriki while they were busy talking. They wouldn't be in the situation though if Sasuke didn't help Akatsuki in obtaining the Eight Tails chakra so by a chain of events Sasuke is too blame for them being in that situation to begin with.
    No, it couldn't. Aside from the fact that Danzo knowing he was there defeating any possibility of an ambush, they had no way to escape the building without fighting back. And no, Naruto had plenty of time to explain. There was clearly quite a bit of time between when Obito began and when he actually succeed, time enough that Sasuke and Minato were able to have a conversation. It wouldn't even have taken more then a sentence: Obito's not reviving Madara, he's trying to become the Jinchuuriki himself. He could have easily said that instead of trying to tell Sasuke to stop, which made no kind of sense. And while Sasuke does hold blame for the situation, that holds true for quite a bit of people. Sasuke handing over the Hachibi tail was neither the beginning of the situation, nor was some critical component. We were clearly shown that had Obito really wanted the Hachibi, he could have had Kisame really fight instead of messing around.
    Last edited by TsukiMirage; 3rd November 2013 at 11:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    Itachi was hesitant about telling Sasuke the truth about what had happen, it had nothing to do with fighting together. Itachi was the one who suggested that they fight together. And I would point out that Sasuke "saved" Itachi more then Itachi saved him during that battle.
    http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/577/14 didnt want sasuke to go with him and wanted to do it by himself

    itachi saving sasuke
    http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/580/6
    http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/582/3
    please tell when sasuke saved itachi more times

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    Quote Originally Posted by TsukiMirage View Post
    But that's hardly a fair comparison. Yeah Naruto spared Nagato, but that was after he was able to get everything out of his system by taking out the Paths, before the reveal that they were just puppets.

    Anyway, aside from the fact that such a situation was "out of character", there are times when such a sacrifice is necessary to ensure the peace. Just take a look at the Hyuuga Affair, where without such a sacrifice, Konoha would have been forced into war. Technically, the Uchiha Massacre was the same, a sacrifice for the greater good, though obviously in that case it wasn't a necessity. And then we have seen what happens when one doesn't do what was needed, such as Sarutobi killing Orochimaru or Minato allowing Kushina to sacrifice herself.

    As for why Sasuke would protect Konoha, that's because that's what Itachi desired, and Itachi is the one person Sasuke revered most of all. It ties right back to the original situation with Madara, where the point was electing him to give him something to defend. How much Akatsuki matters is questionable after the reveal that the villages were using their services.

    I would hardly say I sugar coating anything, but you're faulting him for stuff that wasn't his fault.

    He had completely beaten Deidara, who was nearly out of chakra. Why should he not have expected that he could get some answers at that point? Deidara activating C0 would have happen regardless of what Sasuke was doing, and it was only escapable using Manda. The only way that Sasuke could have avoided that would have been to kill Deidara before that final clash, which would have defeated the entire point of fighting him in the first place.

    Except the fact that they were surrounded by samurai in a large building. Exactly how could they have gotten out? Run away with their backs open to attack?

    Itachi was hesitant about telling Sasuke the truth about what had happen, it had nothing to do with fighting together. Itachi was the one who suggested that they fight together. And I would point out that Sasuke "saved" Itachi more then Itachi saved him during that battle.

    Obito being killed would have stopped him, and the Bijuus are even suppose to exist. Their existences has only brought trouble. And how exactly is launching explosive tags, throwing it's own blast right back at it, and trying to land Sage powered blast subduing? Sasuke outright mentioned getting rid of the Juubi after Minato struck down Obito and Minato didn't say any differently.

    No, it couldn't. Aside from the fact that Danzo knowing he was there defeating any possibility of an ambush, they had no way to escape the building without fighting back. And no, Naruto had plenty of time to explain. There was clearly quite a bit of time between when Obito began and when he actually succeed, time enough that Sasuke and Minato were able to have a conversation. It wouldn't even have taken more then a sentence: Obito's not reviving Madara, he's trying to become the Jinchuuriki himself. He could have easily said that instead of trying to tell Sasuke to stop, which made no kind of sense. And while Sasuke does hold blame for the situation, that holds true for quite a bit of people. Sasuke handing over the Hachibi tail was neither the beginning of the situation, nor was some critical component. We were clearly shown that had Obito really wanted the Hachibi, he could have had Kisame really fight instead of messing around.
    Naruto had to defeat the Pain Paths because they were attacking the village, killing the villagers while looking for him. As a soldier of Konoha it was his job to stop them. It was also already know by the higher ups by that time that the Pains were all puppets thanks to Jiraiya's code. Choji's dad even spoke of one as if it were a machine when he, Choji, and Kakashi were fighting them. Naruto had to stop them or his village would die, and it did get blown up and people did die. Nagato cheapened it by bringing them all back, but Naruto didn't know that was going to happen when he spared Nagato not giving into his urge to kill him out of revenge.

    Sasuke's vengeance on Danzo was different then the Hyuuga affair however. True a sacrifice was needed to avert war with Raikage's nation, but Neji's father volunteered to be that sacrifice for his family. Karin did not agree to be a sacrifice, she was crying for Sasuke to help her. Sasuke didn't care and struck her down with Danzo. If Karin agreed to sacrifice herself or when she got caught told Sasuke to forget about her and take the shot, that would be different. Sasuke even berates Karin for being caught after striking her and the best part about it was after Danzo had died, Obito persuades Sasuke into finishing off Karin, even though she was still barely alive and could have been saved, Sasuke without a second thought moves in to kill her. Sasuke killing Danzo did not benefit anyone long term but Sasuke himself. Kiba was right when he told Sasuke he doesn't even know what being Hokage means. Sasuke has never truly cared for anyone outside his clan. He use to care about Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi, but look how he turned his back on them and tried to kill all three of them, and they had nothing to do with the Uchiha killings at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tak310 View Post
    http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/577/14 didnt want sasuke to go with him and wanted to do it by himself

    itachi saving sasuke
    http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/580/6
    http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/582/3
    please tell when sasuke saved itachi more times
    You're right for the most part. Itachi did save Sasuke more than Sasuke saved Itachi. It's one of the reasons why I disliked their fight against Kabuto; Itachi was the one who did all the hard work while Sasuke was all like "ONII-CHAN!" instead of actually contributing to the fight. It was one of the few times where Sasuke's been overshadowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed View Post
    You're right for the most part. Itachi did save Sasuke more than Sasuke saved Itachi. It's one of the reasons why I disliked their fight against Kabuto; Itachi was the one who did all the hard work while Sasuke was all like "ONII-CHAN!" instead of actually contributing to the fight. It was one of the few times where Sasuke's been overshadowed.
    It also doesn't help that the Kabuto fight was the first true battle Sasuke had since obtaining the EMS but instead of showing something impressive and making it seem like he could take on Naruto he played the sidekick role and was overshadowed like you said.

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    To be fair the big Edo Tensei's are overshadowing everyone. Naruto defeated Pain only to get owned by Edo Tensei Nagato, as it's been stated Edo Tensei Itachi overshadowed Sasuke in the Kabutomaru fight. For such a character like Sasuke who gets put in the biggest spots in Naruto, he's always with someone be it Taka or his zombie brother. And of course my favorite one of all, the Edo Tensei Dead Hokages overshadowing everyone in the war, and at times even both Naruto and Sasuke. Forget about actually building up characters like Sakura, Hinata, Choji, Shino, and the rest of Konoha to have their big moment to show they are the future of Konoha and that they've surpassed the old guard. No, let's turn the war into a fanfic and totally disregard what happened in part 1 and bring back Orochimaru, who gets back his good arms, who can summon all 4 previous Hokages, who can then proceed to overshadow everyone in the entire Allied Alliance. Naruto and Sasuke look downright secondary right now and they want to be Hokages! This is the main reason I hated this fanfic Edo Tensei revival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    To be fair the big Edo Tensei's are overshadowing everyone. Naruto defeated Pain only to get owned by Edo Tensei Nagato, as it's been stated Edo Tensei Itachi overshadowed Sasuke in the Kabutomaru fight. For such a character like Sasuke who gets put in the biggest spots in Naruto, he's always with someone be it Taka or his zombie brother. And of course my favorite one of all, the Edo Tensei Dead Hokages overshadowing everyone in the war, and at times even both Naruto and Sasuke. Forget about actually building up characters like Sakura, Hinata, Choji, Shino, and the rest of Konoha to have their big moment to show they are the future of Konoha and that they've surpassed the old guard. No, let's turn the war into a fanfic and totally disregard what happened in part 1 and bring back Orochimaru, who gets back his good arms, who can summon all 4 previous Hokages, who can then proceed to overshadow everyone in the entire Allied Alliance. Naruto and Sasuke look downright secondary right now and they want to be Hokages! This is the main reason I hated this fanfic Edo Tensei revival.

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    I agree. Honestly it completely contradicts the whole idea that the present surpasses the past considering that all the old faces of the past are the ones making the faces of the present look like a bunch of pansies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    To be fair the big Edo Tensei's are overshadowing everyone. Naruto defeated Pain only to get owned by Edo Tensei Nagato, as it's been stated Edo Tensei Itachi overshadowed Sasuke in the Kabutomaru fight. For such a character like Sasuke who gets put in the biggest spots in Naruto, he's always with someone be it Taka or his zombie brother. And of course my favorite one of all, the Edo Tensei Dead Hokages overshadowing everyone in the war, and at times even both Naruto and Sasuke. Forget about actually building up characters like Sakura, Hinata, Choji, Shino, and the rest of Konoha to have their big moment to show they are the future of Konoha and that they've surpassed the old guard. No, let's turn the war into a fanfic and totally disregard what happened in part 1 and bring back Orochimaru, who gets back his good arms, who can summon all 4 previous Hokages, who can then proceed to overshadow everyone in the entire Allied Alliance. Naruto and Sasuke look downright secondary right now and they want to be Hokages! This is the main reason I hated this fanfic Edo Tensei revival.

    RIN IS ALWAYS WATCHING YOU!
    o please pain owned naruto during the first fight (dont argue i dont want to get into this arguement again naruto won because of plot) and again because of plot sasuske needed those characters or he wouldnt have survived none of those fights. im not gonna argue on the last one because that one i believe is true

    not everyone in the current gen is going to surpass the older gen just a few (naruto and sasuke) and they still havent passed the older gens hashirama and madara

    pokemon is a kids anime do not expect an amazing story, if you do not fall into the shows demographic dont complain about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by tak310 View Post
    o please pain owned naruto during the first fight (dont argue i dont want to get into this arguement again naruto won because of plot) and again because of plot sasuske needed those characters or he wouldnt have survived none of those fights. im not gonna argue on the last one because that one i believe is true

    not everyone in the current gen is going to surpass the older gen just a few (naruto and sasuke) and they still havent passed the older gens hashirama and madara
    You respond to what I say, but don't want me to respond back? I feel unloved now. I still have to respond when did Pain own Naruto? Are you talking about when Pain stabbed Naruto's hands to the ground? I mean compared to Naruto trashing all the Pain Paths minus the Yahiko one, that's pretty minor. Or are you referring to when he traps Naruto in his rage mode? Because Minato's Chakra ghost whatever knocks him back to reality which was always part of Naruto's seal so it's not really outside help, it's help from the inside literally XD we didn't know that until this fight, but it still gets him free of Pain, which leads to Naruto pwning Pain into a mountain, thus defeating him. I don't didn't really see Pain owning Naruto in their first fight besides those two moments.

    I imagine Kishi gives Naruto and Sasuke outside help during these big fights so they don't look like totally unbeateble and so you can actually believe there are bad guys strong enough to defeat them and not look as uber haxxed as anyone with EMS and Rinnegan.
    Last edited by Platinum fan.; 5th November 2013 at 1:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    It also doesn't help that the Kabuto fight was the first true battle Sasuke had since obtaining the EMS but instead of showing something impressive and making it seem like he could take on Naruto he played the sidekick role and was overshadowed like you said.
    And he still hasn't shown anything interesting using the EMS unless the Kyuubi armor thing counts, but I think he was just using Susanoo normally. Anyway, either Kishi is saving the EMS's other techniques for the Naruto/Sasuke battle (he did state that the EMS gave birth to new jutsu back when Itachi revealed Madara's backstory), or he just forgot.

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    Saying you won't argue simply because "you believe it" only makes it an opinion, one which everyone is entitled to, yet not every one of them is right. Regardless it's moot, that battle is far past over and done with, and "versus" discussions never get anywhere with people always having some sort of bias, and favorite involved whether they deny it or not. In regards to what "JKen" said clearly not every single shinobi can surpass the past or it would defeat the purpose of all the legends talking them up. Madara and Hashirama are viewed as borderline god-like shinobi or as close one could come to being one (not including Rikudou Sennin), and the two main characters (the one's who truly matter at this point) are shown to be well on the path of surpassing even them as alluded to by Orochimaru, and even Hashirama acknowledging Naruto's will and potential.

    Platinum fan, your argument is porous at best. Returning Orochimaru hardly turns this into "burying" any of the young konoha shinobi, they all have their skills, they've had their moments already to a certain degree. Did you expect the likes of Choji, Lee, Kiba, Ino etc to really outshine the old guard? And exactly who is this old guard they would be outshining, the previous Kage? The dead Akatsuki? Madara? Hanzou? Why would Kishimoto try and build up the likes of those other young shinobi to the same level of Sasuke and Naruto, who are clearly on their own path to becoming far above and beyond any of the skills the other current shinobi have (as Madara and Hashirama were). In terms of Itachi overshadowing Sasuke in the sage Kabuto fight, it was to teach Sasuke he still had room to grow, and during the entire fight, Itachi was preaching different ideals he hoped would sink into Sasuke. That and Itachi it clearly more mentally strong than Sasuke, and able to handle Kabuto's tricks and mind games. There are far to many holes to poke through in these arguments, yet I really don't feel liek posting a four paragraph response, and have a line or two maybe read, only to be responded in another biased hollow manner. When the complaints are about the edo tensei kage being stronger than the Konoha 11 it really is laughable, Imean did you expect them to suddenly overpower them? Again as stated above, NOT EVERYONE IS INTENDED TO SURPASS THE OLD GENERATION. That's why Sasuke and more prominently, Naruto surpassing the previous Kage and their ideals even it actually means something rather than having under developed characters suddenly become worthy of being a Kage. This is my last post in this section, as it tends to give me headaches reading the trivial "versus" and less than creative arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinum fan. View Post
    You respond to what I say, but don't want me to respond back? I feel unloved now. I still have to respond when did Pain own Naruto? Are you talking about when Pain stabbed Naruto's hands to the ground? I mean compared to Naruto trashing all the Pain Paths minus the Yahiko one, that's pretty minor. Or are you referring to when he traps Naruto in his rage mode? Because Minato's Chakra ghost whatever knocks him back to reality which was always part of Naruto's seal so it's not really outside help, it's help from the inside literally XD we didn't know that until this fight, but it still gets him free of Pain, which leads to Naruto pwning Pain into a mountain, thus defeating him. I don't didn't really see Pain owning Naruto in their first fight besides those two moments.

    I imagine Kishi gives Naruto and Sasuke outside help during these big fights so they don't look like totally unbeateble and so you can actually believe there are bad guys strong enough to defeat them and not look as uber haxxed as anyone with EMS and Rinnegan.
    the fight was over when naruto was on the floor, he only beat the other pains because he had knowledge without it i doubt naruto wouldve taken out 1 let alone all 6 the kyubbi power wasnt his at the time so it counts as outside power imo. i didnt mean owning him but pain still beat him even though naruto had knowledge if it wasnt for hinata stepping in naruto wouldnt be alive or without kurama.

    and when i meant dont argue its because i already went through this a couple of pages ago and dont want to start it again.
    p.s. you are loved lol xD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tak310 View Post
    the fight was over when naruto was on the floor, he only beat the other pains because he had knowledge without it i doubt naruto wouldve taken out 1 let alone all 6 the kyubbi power wasnt his at the time so it counts as outside power imo. i didnt mean owning him but pain still beat him even though naruto had knowledge if it wasnt for hinata stepping in naruto wouldnt be alive or without kurama.

    and when i meant dont argue its because i already went through this a couple of pages ago and dont want to start it again.
    p.s. you are loved lol xD
    Well yeah, Pain had Naruto down, but the fight wasn't over yet. To me a fight's over when one guy is knocked out. The only real fight I can think of that had to be restarted several different times was the Killer Bee vs Sasuke fight. Killer Bee must have dealt like three killing blows to him before going Eight-Tails, thankfully Karin was there. But it goes back to what I said that they give Naruto and Sasuke help so they don't look to overpowered. If Naruto and Sasuke beat all these guys 100% without help, it makes them look like mary-sues.

    I see. I thought I was unwanted for a second there XD I know they probably annoy everyone on here, but I love having Naruto debates here! I look more forward to having a Naruto debate then to actually see the new chapters on the war. They are fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed View Post
    And he still hasn't shown anything interesting using the EMS unless the Kyuubi armor thing counts, but I think he was just using Susanoo normally. Anyway, either Kishi is saving the EMS's other techniques for the Naruto/Sasuke battle (he did state that the EMS gave birth to new jutsu back when Itachi revealed Madara's backstory), or he just forgot.
    Tbh Sasuke's EMS started to seem obsolete when Madara showed up with the exact same powers and basically used it better then him. It was already underwhelming that Sasuke's MS abilities were just a copy of Itachi's MS abilities with a few differences but then Madara came and it was just overkill especially with all the spamming they did with the abilities.

    @Mr. Fuji I know that not everyone can surpass the past but that doesn't excuse how the past generation is coming back to up shine the present ones who are the ones who really need to defend themselves and defeat those shadows of the past instead of relying on the same guys who got them in the mess they are currently in.

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    I've thought about this for a while, and I have to state it, yet again. But I honestly can't remember what the heck I read this week. Purged my memory after the fact apparently..
    Answer to all the bad things in the world: Give up on trying to make everything better. Hence, accepting it for what it is. YOLO! <- Click the link and daw.. -.-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locormus View Post
    I've thought about this for a while, and I have to state it, yet again. But I honestly can't remember what the heck I read this week. Purged my memory after the fact apparently..
    You didn't really miss anything monumental. In a nutshell it was just Naruto using talk no jutsu on his other half Obito.

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    There have been a lot of chapters lately that could easily be skipped. I mean it seems like the whole war arc after Tobi's identity was revealed has been filler with a few exceptions like Sasuke meeting the four previous Hokage. Sigh, and this war seemed so full of potential from the beginning; so many characters were revived and it seemed like we would get great battles and closure for everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Ken View Post
    Tbh Sasuke's EMS started to seem obsolete when Madara showed up with the exact same powers and basically used it better then him. It was already underwhelming that Sasuke's MS abilities were just a copy of Itachi's MS abilities with a few differences but then Madara came and it was just overkill especially with all the spamming they did with the abilities.

    @Mr. Fuji I know that not everyone can surpass the past but that doesn't excuse how the past generation is coming back to up shine the present ones who are the ones who really need to defend themselves and defeat those shadows of the past instead of relying on the same guys who got them in the mess they are currently in.
    the past generation that ur talking has very powerful people in it the hokages and madara its hard to surpass those and from the things that we've seen from minato i seriously doubt sage naruto really surpassed him(in the pain arc) and imo bsm naruto still hasnt surpassed him yet

    pokemon is a kids anime do not expect an amazing story, if you do not fall into the shows demographic dont complain about it

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    @Tak310 I agree with you, exactly well put. It's as simple as that, the shinobi brought back will probably only be surpassed by the future Kage such as Naruto and whoever else, Gaara is also shown to have surpassed his father and show great skill against the former Mizukage. I mean sure, Kiba, Shikamaru, and all those shinobi (I'm not listing them all but they all reside in the same relative class) will surpass their parents, who are the last generation's jounin, and the konoha 11 will become just that, this current generation's crop of jounin. It's not a knock on them by any means, but to expect anything more is overzealous, they already showed their moments early in the war anyway, and even right now by helping Naruto. It just isn't worth arguing.

    Also @J Ken, the proclaimed "spamming" of the ms is the same as Naruto "spamming" rasengan, or kyuubi chakra mode, or Nagato using shinra tensei. Everyone technically spams their techniques, not everyone is Hiruzen, and Orochimaru in terms of amount of jutsu they know. Furthermore, Orochimaru also stated Sasuke will probably get to Madara's level one day, thus changing and expanding on his current techniques, whether we see this is up to Kishimoto, perhaps in a final showdown with Naruto in the future. Regardless, Madara using his ms techniques so often and with such ease should be looked at as just how skilled he really is, and truly can't be matched by anyone other than Hashirama. What's the point in having such visual prowess and not using it as often as one can. I doubt Hashirama will stop "spamming" his moukuton either.

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