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Thread: SPPF Christian Alliance

  1. #1751
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    I'd love to join.
    If you believe in Jesus Christ put this in your profile and don't just ignore this, because in the Bible it says, ‘If you deny me, I will deny you in front of my Father in the gates of Heaven.’

    Sonata Arctica and Stratovarius fan

  2. #1752
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    Wow! Two new members at almost the same time! Welcome Zalck and Aggron 459!

    I've been able to meet with a Bible study group more often this semester than last. This is especially helpful to strengthen my faith because we're doing a comprehensive study in my bio class now of evolution. It's always good to have the company of other Christians when I need to stay firm in my beliefs.

  3. #1753
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    Welcome Aggron459 and Zalck! May you grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Feel free to start a new topic or join in the ones currently in motion. (Although, it looks like we don't really have any current topic! XD)
    But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.
    Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."
    See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (Ephesians 5:13-15)



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  4. #1754
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    I got a few questions for you christians.

    If god knows all, what is the use of praying? surely he knows what you want without you asking him.

    If i could find a bible verse that condones something very bad, say rape, would that mean that you guys would agree that that really bad thing is okay?
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  5. #1755

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    (1) It is correct that God knows what we want before we ask.

    Matthew 6:7-8 "7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."

    And this passage comes right before the Lord's Prayer! Now why should we pray then? There are four reasons.
    (i)We are commanded to pray. That is good and sufficient reason for a Christian to pray, and if a Christian needs any other answer, then he or she needs to change his or her view of the Bible--immediately. It is superfluous to prove that we are commanded to pray because it is obvious and agreed upon on all parts. However, it will be helpful to note what the Westminster Larger Catechism (WLC) says about this because it shows what kind of command it is--a worship command! (Note that the footnotes are for Scripture proof texts to the statements; feel free to look up the Catechism online for free yourself if you want the texts)

    (ii)Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?
    A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his Word;518 particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;519 the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word;520 the administration and receiving of the sacraments;521 church government and discipline;522 the ministry and maintainance thereof;523 religious fasting;524 swearing by the name of God;525 and vowing unto him;526 as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship;527 and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.528

    Q. 179. Are we to pray unto God only?
    A. God only being able to search the hearts,1152 hear the requests,1153 pardon the sins,1154 and fulfill the desires of all;1155 and only to be believed in,1156 and worshipped with religious worship;1157 prayer, which is a special part thereof,1158 is to be made by all to him alone,1159 and to none other.1160

    That's the second reason--though it's related to the first--prayer is a part of the religious worship of our God. Since we are not to "add or subtract" to God's worship, we must pray as part of it.

    (iii)Prayer is more for believers than it is for God's sake. The WLC says:
    Q. 178. What is prayer?
    A. Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God,1147 in the name of Christ,1148 by the help of his Spirit;1149 with confession of our sins,1150 and thankful acknowledgment of his mercies.1151

    Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?
    A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation.992

    And the Westminster Confession (WCF) chapter XIV:
    I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,278 is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,279 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word,280 by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.

    WLC: Q. 178. What is prayer?
    A. Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God,1147 in the name of Christ,1148 by the help of his Spirit;1149 with confession of our sins,1150 and thankful acknowledgment of his mercies.1151

    In other words, to use the usual Reformed/Puritan vocabulary, prayer is a "means of grace." It makes a Christian more like Christ to pray. It strengthens our faith and forces us to depend on God, and through prayer, God will bless it and make a Christian more holy. For examples of what this entails...

    John Calvin's Commentary: "But if God knows what things we have need of, before we ask him, where lies the advantage of prayer? If he is ready, of his own free will, to assist us, what purpose does it serve to employ our prayers, which interrupt the spontaneous course of his providence? The very design of prayer furnishes an easy answer. Believers do not pray, with the view of informing God about things unknown to him, or of exciting him to do his duty, or of urging him as though he were reluctant. On the contrary, they pray, in order that they may arouse themselves to seek him, that they may exercise their faith in meditating on his promises, that they may relieve themselves from their anxieties by pouring them into his bosom; in a word, that they may declare that from Him alone they hope and expect, both for themselves and for others, all good things. God himself, on the other hand, has purposed freely, and without being asked, to bestow blessings upon us; but he promises that he will grant them to our prayers. We must, therefore, maintain both of these truths, that He freely anticipates our wishes, and yet that we obtain by prayer what we ask. As to the reason why he sometimes delays long to answer us, and sometimes even does not grant our wishes, an opportunity of considering it will afterwards occur."

    Matthew Henry's Commentary: "(2.) "It need not be your way, for your Father in heaven knoweth what things ye have need of before ye ask him, and therefore there is no occasion for such abundance of words. It does not follow that therefore ye need not pray; for God requires you by prayer to own your need of him and dependence on him, and to please his promises; but therefore you are to open your case, and pour out your hearts before him, and then leave it with him." Consider, [1.] The God we pray to is our Father by creation, by covenant; and therefore our addresses to him should be easy, natural, and unaffected; children do not use to make long speeches to their parents when they want any thing; it is enough to say, my head, my head. Let us come to him with the disposition of children, with love, reverence, and dependence; and then they need not say many words, that are taught by the Spirit of adoption to say that one aright, Abba, Father. [2.] He is a Father that knows our case and knows our wants better than we do ourselves. He knows what things we have need of; his eyes run to and fro through the earth, to observe the necessities of his people (2 Chron. xvi. 9), and he often gives before we call (Isa. lxv. 24), and more than we ask for (Eph. iii. 20), and if he do not give his people what they ask, it is because he knows they do not need it, and that it is not for their good; and of that he is fitter to judge for us than we for ourselves. We need not be long, nor use many words in representing our case; God knows it better than we can tell him, only he will know it from us (what will ye that I should do unto you?); and when we have told him what it is, we must refer ourselves to him, Lord, all my desire is before thee, Ps. xxxviii. 9. So far is God from being wrought upon by the length or language of our prayers, that the most powerful intercessions are those which are made with groanings that cannot be uttered, Rom. viii. 26. We are not to prescribe, but subscribe to God."

    Samuel Lee: "But can God be moved by our arguments or affect with our troubles? He is the unchangeable God and dwells in the inaccessible light, and with him is no variableness nor shadow of turning.
    I reply. These holy motions upon the hearts of saints in prayer are the fruits of his love to them, and the appointed ushers-in of mercy. God graciously determines to give a praying, arguing, warm, affectionate frame as the forerunner of a decreed mercy. That is the reason that carnal men can enjoy no such mercies, because they pour out no such prayers. The spirit of prayer prognosticates mercy near at hand. When the Lord by Jeremiah foretold the end of the captivity, he also predicts the prayers that should open the gates of Babylon....
    Divine grace kindles these ardent affections when the mercies promised are uopn the wing. Prayer is that chain...that draws the soul up to God, and the emrcy down to us; or like the cable that draws the ship to land, though the shore itself remains unmovable."
    And there are plenty of other examples and ways prayer is a means of grace (e.g., making us more reverent before God; making us be able to thank God for an answered prayer; etc.)

    (iv)And now for the theological-philosophical answer. Prayer is a divinely appointed means for God to accomplish His ends. Yes, God knows what we want and can (and often does) give us what we need without our asking. However, God decrees both the ends and the means of accomplishing that end, and prayer is often the means God uses to accomplish something. For example, say you were praying for someone to become a Christian. Now, only God knows whether He has decreed that this person will be a Christian or not. However, suppose God did decree that person would become a Christian. Then he would also decree your prayer to occur as a means for God to make that person a Christian. He would answer your prayer, but His answer would not affect His decree or knowledge. But if you ask: Well, what if I don't pray? Then if that person was decreed to become a Christian, then apparently your prayer was not part of God's means of accomplishing that salvation. Now, if God had decreed that the person would not become a Christian, then your prayer would end up being a means of forcing you to recognize that God is the only one who makes people Christians and to be grateful that God had decided to make you one and to be more reverent and humble before God in contemplating that He should have chosen to save a worm such as yourself.



    (2)This isn't a fair question, as I shall point out a bit later. Firstly, yes, we do whatever the Bible tells us to do. Secondly, the Bible is our standard of morality: what it approves is "good" and what it condemns is "evil." Thirdly, this morality is fixed in God's character--which does not change--and so what is eivl at one time is evil at another--and thus the moral rules of the Bible are not arbitrarily made. So fourthly, we are to obey whatever God commands us. If rape were not evil, then the Bible wouldn't condemn it. By definition of Christian morality (morality that is rooted in God's character, remember!), the Bible could not condone something "very bad."

    Now hopefully you can begin to see why your question isn't fair. But it is unfair for other reasons too. (i)The Bible condemns rape. Therefore, for it to condone it would be for it to contradict itself. So you will not be able to find a verse that condones rape or anything else that is very bad. (ii)Your question implies that you have a standard of morality to judge the Bible by. This is unacceptable to a Christian. The foundation of knowledge is Scripture; everything must be tested by Scripture, not Scripture tested by some other standard. (iii)While it is true we Christians acknowledge that there are some things that people almost everywhere are able to know is immoral (like rape) (this is because everyone is still made in the image of God though the image is so tarnished that "natural law" cannot be made the basis of morality), the moral law will never contradict the natural law because both laws are the same. Thus, you still will not be able to find the Bible condoning something "very bad." However, because the image of God is tarnished in us all, natural law isn't always reliable and so there are some things that our conscience tells us is wrong (perhaps--for the unbeliever anyway--having laws against homosexuality, for example), but the Bible will say otherwise. In these cases, of course, as in all cases, we listen to the Bible for it is correct on what is "good" and "bad."
    Last edited by Salavoir55; 13th August 2011 at 6:02 AM.

  6. #1756
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    Welcome to the club, Zalck and Aggron! I hope you find your stay here enjoyable!

    Anyways, sorry for not posting here in a bit (I'm aiming for the worst club owner in the history of internet forums award, if you haven't noticed). But I have been keeping an eye on stuff so I did pray for the requests. I'll be thinking up topics and prolly get a new memory verse up soon....

    Chosen-one: It's great that you have people in the same class who'll help you stand firm. My physics class this year is gonna cover the big bang and all the stuff behind it so it'll be interesting. Currently, alot of this stuff is still mostly based on theory so nothing has caused me to question anything yet. I'll be praying for you, though!

    Scizor: I'll answer your questions the best I can, but don't take me as the final word on the issue. Hopefully as a group we can properly answer your questions.

    1) Yes, God does know everything. He knows our thoughts and actions before we do them (see Psalm 139). So why should we pray? Prayer is the act of humbling ourselves before God and accepting that while things are beyond our control, they aren't out of His. Prayer is an act of reliance and faith that God knows best. God wants to hear what's going on in our lives. The Bible is God speaking to us, letting us know what is expected of us. Prayer is us speaking to God, letting Him know how we want things to turn out. We pray and hope that what we want is in accordance with His will. If things don't turn out the way we had hoped, we trust that He has deeper motives behind answering "no" to our request.

    I'm no expert in this area, so if any of the other members wanna add anything or correct anything then go for it. But that's my two cents.

    2) Do you have a particular verse/passage in mind? I don't have a good response to this. All I can say is that in that situation I'd study the context behind the passage before outright accepting that it condones such a thing. If you're thinking about the Old Testament: some pretty bad stuff happened, but I don't think that God ever let it slide (aka, God didn't "condone" it).
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    "Awake, my soul, give me eyes to see the King exalted, deserving and worthy. Awake, my soul, give me words to speak among the nations proclaiming Your glory.
    OH, HOW YOU'VE PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO ONE LIKE YOU! EVER FAITHFUL TO SUCH FAITHLESS MEN LIKE US!"
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  7. #1757
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    Another question- where in the bible does it say that sodomy is wrong?
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  8. #1758
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    I can throw in my input. Also, welcome new members!

    1. I see pray as people reaching out to God. It shows Him how much we care and it can revitalize ourselves. It's a way to unlaod what's going on in our lives. Sure He might alreayd know what we're going to say, but it's getting really close to having a tangible God.

    2. I'm gonna stay out of this area cuz I know I'll butcher things. Just know that Jesus came to fulfill the law.

    EDIT: No idea what sodomy is XD

  9. #1759
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    sodomy=people of the same sex having sex.
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  10. #1760
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    There are a few other passages that say it's wrong (that is, homosexuality) but I find this one to be the most direct.

    "For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and recieving in themselves the due penalty for their error." Romans 1:26-27 (ESV)

    You can read the surrounding verses if you'd like. The context is that those who do what they want (contrary to the standards God set) will be punished. Not obeying God's commands is sin so therefore homosexuality is a sin. God created woman for man (sexually) so going against that is going against what He set in place. I believe Paul was referring to Sodom and Gomorrah (at least, that's one example the Bible points out) in the passage. Way back in the day, those two cities were full of sin (especially homosexuality) and God chose to destroy those places cause they were beyond help.

    While it doesn't blatantly say in this passage that what they were doing was sodomy ("no pants dance" with eachother), it is heavily implied by the language used.

    I could go on, but 1) I'm no expert on the subject and 2) you only asked for a passage.

    Edit: Underlined "women" to answer the question posed in the post below me.
    Last edited by Pikawho?; 29th January 2011 at 1:00 AM.
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    "Awake, my soul, give me eyes to see the King exalted, deserving and worthy. Awake, my soul, give me words to speak among the nations proclaiming Your glory.
    OH, HOW YOU'VE PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO ONE LIKE YOU! EVER FAITHFUL TO SUCH FAITHLESS MEN LIKE US!"
    Wolves at the Gate - Awaken

  11. #1761
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    Is there anything about lesbians in the bible?
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  12. #1762

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    There's also those verses in Leviticus that explicitly condemn it. It is not abrogated because (a) the reason for that law is based on God's moral character (it's an "abomination" to God) and (b) the gentiles were held accountable to that same law (the land Israel was getting "vomited out" those who had done such things). That is what Paul is probably referring to, imo. He often refers to the moral law of the Old Testament in his letters and especially so when speaking to Gentiles. You will note that the Bible uses euphemisms to speak about it. But the Bible does that with all sorts of sins in order to keep the Christian from being provoked to sin by reading abou it.


    Edit: The Romans verse addresses lesbians too, but even if it didn't, it would be easy enough to prove it was wrong from the Bible. God made man male and female. The two become united in marriage, showing that marriage consists of only one man and one woman. All sexual relations outside of marriage are condemned. Polygamy, adultery, and sodomy are all condemned because they strike out against the order God created.


    Edit2: Lesbianism wasn't common among those Paul wrote to, so it's natural to expect it isn't mentioned much.

    Edit3: Also, sometimes certain doctrines rely on the basis of one word. Fortunately, this isn't the case with homosexuality--male or female--since it is woven throughout the Bible.
    Last edited by Salavoir55; 13th August 2011 at 6:03 AM.

  13. #1763
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    Quote Originally Posted by scizor42 View Post
    Is there anything about lesbians in the bible?
    "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:21-27)

    That's the only place that talks about lesbians. And due to this, places that have laws based on religion sometimes have male homosexuality illegal, and female homosexuality legal. Like Singapore. (I am including Islam majority places, because Islam came from Christianity and all passages regarding homosexuality are the same.)

    Oh no, am I going to get attacked again because I answered a simple question?
    Bye </3 You got what you wanted, Zabi. Congrats, your lies worked.

  14. #1764
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    Fortunately you editted your post cause I was gonna point that out. lol And no, you won't be attacked (rather, shouldn't be). However, unless you've got actual questions to ask us, I'm going to ask for you to stay out of this discussion. You are not a member of this club so it is not your place to answer the questions posed to us. Scizor wanted the Christians to state their view on the subject (through the Scripture we uphold as the moral standard). Since you're not a Christian, you cannot properly do that for him. So unless you've got questions to ask us please stay out of this. Thanks.
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    "Awake, my soul, give me eyes to see the King exalted, deserving and worthy. Awake, my soul, give me words to speak among the nations proclaiming Your glory.
    OH, HOW YOU'VE PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO ONE LIKE YOU! EVER FAITHFUL TO SUCH FAITHLESS MEN LIKE US!"
    Wolves at the Gate - Awaken

  15. #1765
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    @Salavoir55
    Sorry for not capitolizing God, i often do it with names (look at my user name lol)

    anyways, being an atheist i do not tend to buy Bibles (nearly lower cased it, gotta be careful). is there anywhere that i can find an online bible?
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  16. #1766
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    Biblegateway! Best thing ever! It has it in all sorts of translations and you can search by key words~ http://www.biblegateway.com/ Use it wisely young grasshopper, for the word of God is living and active, sharper than and double-edged sword. (that's Hebrews sumthin'...)

  17. #1767
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    Hey there the two new members!

    And now onto the answers. What people have already said for all the questions I will back up completely, but I'd like to add to number 1 and 3.

    1) Prayer is something that is extremely intimate, and nothing else can really replicate this here on earth. Prayer (as many have said) is a branch into God's kingdom and allows us to 'chat' with our creator. I'm going to use tonight as an example of God's prayer. I was at worship and was praying for words about people (words are knowledge that I wouldnt already know, or just something God wants to say to them) and I recieved three pieces of info. They all came to me differently, some images, one a word, and then it finished with 'please pass these on' which I knew was my cue to tell the relevant people. So the 'chat' is a two way thing and not just us speaking to something unknown, because through prayer we can come to really connect and know our saviour Jesus. I'd also like to mention that it is a form of worship, and something that we can express our gratitude, desires etc. through.

    3) Coming from a different angle here, there are quite a lot of passages which incorporate the idea that a man should stay faithful to his wife and his wife alone, revelling in her 'bosoms' and so on and so forth. The act of sex is ment for a man and his wife, or vice versa, and it never says anywhere that the act of same sex relationships is approved. Yes men and women can get 'intimate' as such, but in a friendly way, such as hugs etc and it's not a sexual love but a sibling love. So yes, while there are passages which state that those who committ sodomy do recieve the punishment, there are plenty of passages that also express the joy of sex between and man and his wife.

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  18. #1768
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    What if the bible doesnt say anything on a subject?
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  19. #1769
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    If the Bible doesnt say something, then that's when prayer really comes into play, and not just solidatory prayer but also getting people to pray about the situation and also about the reasonings or the issues and praing with you. If you feel you've been given an answer (or this is what I do) I then ask people to pray with me to see whether an answer I've got is correct or not. And because it's with multiple people there's usually one that gets an answer, sometimes they are told by God what I've been told and sometimes they never know but just get a yes or no.

    Most Recent Chapter - Chapter 31: Don't Forget Me - Posted 26/01/13
    Credits to Sweet May and DanChimchar

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  20. #1770
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    If the Bible doesn't call out a particular subject, then we can only decide what the correct position would be by studying what scripture says regarding similar issues and from that determine what God has to say. We are sinful beings, therefore nobody can properly interpret God's Word (which is why there are many different denominations within Christianity). It's best to do this in a group cause you'll try to use the Bible to justify a certain sin (through its vagueness) without understanding the underlying message in the passages you read. With others helping you, ideally they won't interpret it in the same way you do so together you can figure it out. Other translations of the Bible (or if possible someone who can directly translate the original Greek, Hebrew, etc). It's also best to have many different verses in an argument for what position we as Christians should have towards an issue. That way, it'd be tough countering the argument with a skewed version of scripture.

    I'm prolly in rambling mode now so I can only hope that that made sense. lol
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    "Awake, my soul, give me eyes to see the King exalted, deserving and worthy. Awake, my soul, give me words to speak among the nations proclaiming Your glory.
    OH, HOW YOU'VE PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO ONE LIKE YOU! EVER FAITHFUL TO SUCH FAITHLESS MEN LIKE US!"
    Wolves at the Gate - Awaken

  21. #1771
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    Hello to all. I thought it would be nice to see other christians here so im going to join this group. I did not know there where so many christians here.
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  22. #1772

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    To us, the Bible is perfectly complete and sufficient. There is nothing of religious importance that it does not cover. If there is some problem of ethics, the Bible does indeed cover it in one way or another. It might not have something explicit about a particular topic (e.g., movies), but it does give principles which apply to such topics and so in a very important sense, there is no topic of religious importance which the Bible does not address.

    However, there are some things that are of no religious significance (what theologians call "adiaphora") such as trying to decide whether to plant tomatoes or carrots or trying to decide what time to meet or trying to decide whether to ride your bike, but such things are still to be guided by the general rules of the Word and Christian prudence (e.g., you should do all to the glory of God; you should choose a time to meet when people can be there; you should follow traffic laws when riding your bike; you should not waste time, etc.).

    So it depends on what you mean by the Bible "saying" something about a particular topic. Something that is drawn by good and necessary consequence from Scripture or that is an approved example in Scripture (e.g., the apostles praying in public worship) is just as binding as something the Bible explicitly mentions i.e., we say "the Bible says" something on a topic in each of those cases. You will need to immerse yourself in the Bible and study carefully, but if you pray for the Holy Spirit to illumine your mind as you study God's Word and if it pleases God to bless your reading (very important! this includes you studying the bible rightly as opposed to sinfully rebelling against what it says because one's own sinfulness can blind oneself to what the Bible says and even cause one to twist it to say what it does not say--indeed, except in conversion, God rarely blesses the reading of unbelievers, which is often why unbelievers misunderstand Scripture), you can and will know what it says on any topic of religious importance (i.e., the Bible contains all we need to know for "faith and life" or "faith and practice"--what we need to believe, such as doctrine, and what we need to do, such as ethics or church government or worship).


    In case I didn't describe this properly, here's the Westiminster Shorter Catechism (WSC), the WLC, and the WCF on this topic.

    WSC:
    Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
    A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God,1 and to enjoy him forever.2

    Q. 2. What rule hath God given to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him?
    A. The Word of God, which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments,3 is the only rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him.4

    Q. 3. What do the Scriptures principally teach?
    A. The Scriptures principally teach, what man is to believe concerning God,5 and what duty God requires of man.6

    WLC:
    Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?
    A. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God,1 and fully to enjoy him forever.2

    Q. 2. How doth it appear that there is a God?
    A. The very light of nature in man, and the works of God, declare plainly that there is a God;3 but his word and Spirit only do sufficiently and effectually reveal him unto men for their salvation.4

    Q. 3. What is the Word of God?
    A. The holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are the Word of God,5 the only rule of faith and obedience.6

    Q. 4. How doth it appear that the Scriptures are of the Word of God?
    A. The Scriptures manifest themselves to be the Word of God, by their majesty7 and purity;8 by the consent of all the parts,9 and the scope of the whole, which is to give all glory to God;10 by their light and power to convince and convert sinners, to comfort and build up believers unto salvation:11 but the Spirit of God bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able fully to persuade it that they are the very word of God.12

    Q. 5. What do the Scriptures principally teach?
    A. The Scriptures principally teach, what man is to believe concerning God, and what duty God requires of man.13

    WCF Chapter I:

    II. Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testament, which are these:
    ......
    All which are given by inspiration of God to be the rule of faith and life.7

    VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.12 Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:13 and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.14

    VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:15 yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.16

    VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical;17 so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.18 But, because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them,19 therefore they are to be translated in to the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,20 that, the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner;21 and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.22

    IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.23

    X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.24


    Edit: I would not say anything about hearing God speak to you in prayer and would only say He speaks through His Word (though actually, the position is a little more refined than that). I would grant that there is some sort of communion that takes place in prayer but not to the point where we could say "God wanted me to tell this person this" or "God says this about a particular subject." There would be prayer that God would illumine our minds as we study God's Word though.

    Edit2: I wouldn't say we can never "properly interpret Scripture." We can know what Scripture says, and the Church is very helpful in helping us out with that by making creeds and confessions. Rather, it is better to say, "No one perfectly conforms to Scripture this side of heaven." Not to mention that the Bible's vagueness is more often because of our sinfulness of not submitting to something that is clear than the Bible itself being vague.

    Also, uniformity in worship is desirable, and so we would want only one translation of the Bible per language to be used (along with a singable translation of the Psalms of David). As far as nuances in the original languages and possible other translations of particular verses go, that's the job of commentaries and pastors' sermons and the answers pastors give to questions.
    Last edited by Salavoir55; 13th August 2011 at 6:07 AM.

  23. #1773
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    Wow, Salavoir, as usual I enjoyed reading your answers to our visitor's questions. Also, I didn't know you were Puritan, mainly because I had always thought that there were no Puritans left (at least in the U.S.).

  24. #1774
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    Wow, it looks like this thread was jumpin! Go away for part of one day and look what happens!

    Anywayz, I have made a banner for the SPPFCA. Feel free to use it as long as you give credit.


    But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.
    Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."
    See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. (Ephesians 5:13-15)



        Spoiler:- Friend Codes:

  25. #1775
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    Yea Salavoir always gives brilliant responses, and they're really quite moving. And SS that's a pretty decent banner, am loving the colours and the vibrant aspects of the banner. This does make me think of how vibrant God is, and how many different sides he has, how 3dimensional he is.

    Most Recent Chapter - Chapter 31: Don't Forget Me - Posted 26/01/13
    Credits to Sweet May and DanChimchar

    I will pursue You, I will pursue Your presence

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