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Thread: ~ Official Pokémon News Discussion Thread ~ [POST POKEMON NEWS HERE]

  1. #14726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Yusuf View Post
    Hilariously, my response is actually opposite. I love comparisons with other franchises since they are generally playful and clever, while comments like these are basically the same, repetitive counterarguments that pop up whenever someone ruins the illusion of being descended from heavens up above to save the monster franchises when in reality *gasp* Pocket Monsters, like any other fictional universe with monetary concerns, is actually inspired by and evolved out of other fictional stories, ideas, inter-franchise patterns, genre patterns, cultural concepts and whathaveyou.

    It is as stupid as argument as "GameFreak doesn't care about patterns".
    Except, in this case, this comparison holds no water. Cell hasn't been relevant in Japan for a long time and he's an Artificial Human with no relation with hexagons, worms or protecting the environment.

    Also, the user said Mewtwo was based on Freeza like it was fact and I just asked where that was stated, because I'm pretty sure it's not.
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  2. #14727
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    Imo, doggarde and it's perfect form are.... Pretty ugly. I understand the possible inspiration of the forms being Loki's children but... The designs are simply unappealing to me. Especially the dog form.

    Now, if the forms were ordered as snake form, then dog form, then giant mecha gao gai gar form I may have appreciated them more. Why? Because then not only would the forms represent loki's children but they could have also been representative of human evolution with the forms beginning as a single celled organism, then becoming a reptile, then a mammal, and then a humanoid figure(which self centered humans regard as the "pinnacle" of evolution). Of course, the line would still be missing an aquatic/amphibian/fish form but I would still appreciate the forms more for the extra thought. On the bright side, core and cell zygarde are still cute.
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  3. #14728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Painkiller2001 View Post
    No, they kind of aren't.

    What I don't get is this: Why are people picking now to complain about another Pokemon getting multiple forms? It's not like this is the first time it's happened.
    As an example: Are we forgetting a Pokemon called Rotom and it's five other forms? That's fine, but Zygarde's forms aren't fine? Where's the logic in this, exactly? Because I can't see it.

    If GF doing, well, anything remotely new bothers you so much, uh, ignore it, perhaps? Just a suggestion.
    It's not the fact that Zygarde has multiple forms that people are complaining about (although, some are underwhelmed merely because this reveal wasn't what they expected), it's the feeling that there's no consistency with Zygarde's forms. If you look at Rotom, you clearly have a consistent theming in the form of appliances and you have a unique feature in that each appliance replaces Rotom's Ghost-type with an applicable element. With Zygarde, you have a cell, a dog, a land snake and a mecha, just about as completely random as you can get.

    Maybe we need to see more before making conclusions about what Zygarde forms embody, which is why I don't understand why people are so sure that Zygarde's forms represent Norse mythology (as far as representing Loki's children is concerned). At least Xerneas, Yveltal, and base form Zygarde have connections to Norse mythology, but I feel like people are putting a square peg in a circle hole in regards to interpreting Zygarde's forms. Look at the mecha form for instance, people are comparing that to Hel, saying that the colours red+blue represent half of life and death. But people are conveniently forgetting that Hel is the Goddess of the Dead. Her look is supposed to resemble Half-Life/Half-Death because it represents her indifference to both states of being. It makes absolutely no sense to make that comparison to Zygarde, I mean after all, Zygarde's lore implies that it is more concerned with protecting and keeping Order in the ecosystem. The same can be said of Fenrir, who has been known as a hyperaggressive wolf famous for killing Odin, which again doesn't really fit the theming of Zygarde as a being that keeps Order and protects the ecosystem.

  4. #14729
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    Totally agreed on "pretty ugly" part. I don't really care about dog form but that "perfect" form design looks worse than some fan arts. At least it does look better/more polished on that anime background with its chest opened showing XY power or sth. Hopefully they would do sth amazing with the so called "perfect form".

  5. #14730
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    Quote Originally Posted by alakazam^ View Post
    Except, in this case, this comparison holds no water. Cell hasn't been relevant in Japan for a long time and he's an Artificial Human with no relation with hexagons, worms or protecting the environment.

    Also, the user said Mewtwo was based on Freeza like it was fact and I just asked where that was stated, because I'm pretty sure it's not.
    Apparently Serperior was inspired by The Rose of Versailles which "hasn't been relevant in Japan for a long time" either. Pokemon (like any other fiction) can be inspired by many things they don't need to be based on one or two things or need to be in nearly-perfect unison with their inspiration's lore or design.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurningWhiteKyurem View Post
    It's not the fact that Zygarde has multiple forms that people are complaining about (although, some are underwhelmed merely because this reveal wasn't what they expected), it's the feeling that there's no consistency with Zygarde's forms. If you look at Rotom, you clearly have a consistent theming in the form of appliances and you have a unique feature in that each appliance replaces Rotom's Ghost-type with an applicable element. With Zygarde, you have a cell, a dog, a land snake and a mecha, just about as completely random as you can get.

    Maybe we need to see more before making conclusions about what Zygarde forms embody, which is why I don't understand why people are so sure that Zygarde's forms represent Norse mythology (as far as representing Loki's children is concerned). At least Xerneas, Yveltal, and base form Zygarde have connections to Norse mythology, but I feel like people are putting a square peg in a circle hole in regards to interpreting Zygarde's forms. Look at the mecha form for instance, people are comparing that to Hel, saying that the colours red+blue represent half of life and death. But people are conveniently forgetting that Hel is the Goddess of the Dead. Her look is supposed to resemble Half-Life/Half-Death because it represents her indifference to both states of being. It makes absolutely no sense to make that comparison to Zygarde, I mean after all, Zygarde's lore implies that it is more concerned with protecting and keeping Order in the ecosystem. The same can be said of Fenrir, who has been known as a hyperaggressive wolf famous for killing Odin, which again doesn't really fit the theming of Zygarde as a being that keeps Order and protects the ecosystem.
    I think Zygarde's seemingly random Formes just makes it more unique, I like it.

    Mayb Zygarde is more of a neutral connection between Xerneas and Yveltal, with the purpose of keeping everything in balance. So it could make sense with the half dead, half alive.
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  6. #14731
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    They have to do something to spice up this game whatever it may be, if they're not gonna introduce any new Pokemon. Therefore I am gonna expect Mega Moltres/Articuno/Zapdos. What else can they do? Add in other legendaries? Oh wait, they're all in ORAS.

  7. #14732
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    As usual, I don't quite see the point of bringing about 'innovations' to a handful of Pokemon using sophisticated mechanics such as formes, megas or fusion.

    Having done a bit a research on another franchise that has taken over Japan not too long ago (Yokai Watch), I felt that Pokemon has overlooked the beauty of simplicity.

    Just looking forward to seeing the base stats of Zygarde's various formes.
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  8. #14733
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    To be fair, the "worse than fan art" and "this design is bad" points comes up actually every time a new design comes up, without fail. And every time most people get over it or just eventually come to like it anyway. It happened with the Honedge line and now they're super popular, it happened with Greninja ("ew is that it's tongue? Must be bad fan art") and he's one of the most popular Kalos Pokemon, it even happened with Mega Rayquaza and it's still one of the most popular legendaries in the game. The disappointment with this is no different, and it always is the disappointment that's more vocal than those who are satisfied. People like things and dislike other things, Zygarde here is no different really.
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  9. #14734
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    People complained about Mega Rayquaza? I thought it was the epitome of perfection..

    Just wait for the Ken Sugimori art. I'm sure there will be tweaks here and there.


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  10. #14735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynergy View Post
    To be fair, the "worse than fan art" and "this design is bad" points comes up actually every time a new design comes up, without fail. And every time most people get over it or just eventually come to like it anyway. It happened with the Honedge line and now they're super popular, it happened with Greninja ("ew is that it's tongue? Must be bad fan art") and he's one of the most popular Kalos Pokemon, it even happened with Mega Rayquaza and it's still one of the most popular legendaries in the game. The disappointment with this is no different, and it always is the disappointment that's more vocal than those who are satisfied so this is nothing new really.
    You do realize that all of the examples you've listed have amazing combat capabilities to back them up, don't you? Being a beast in battle can change the perception of the masses pretty significantly.
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  11. #14736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    You do realize that all of the examples you've listed have amazing combat capabilities to back them up, don't you? Being a beast in battle can change the perception of the masses pretty significantly.
    That is true, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and guess that Perfect Zygarde will be the same. They promised that his power would surpass that of Xerneas and Yveltal, and that's probably all that we know because he's supposed to counteract them. He could be even more powerful than that, but until we get some kind of ingame confirmation, we won't know. I myself am willing to bet he'll have power comparable to that of the Mega Mewtwos and Mega Rayquaza, as it wouldn't seem fair to make him only a bit stronger than Xerneas and Yveltal, especially with his typing.
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  12. #14737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynergy View Post
    To be fair, the "worse than fan art" and "this design is bad" points comes up actually every time a new design comes up, without fail. And every time most people get over it or just eventually come to like it anyway. It happened with the Honedge line and now they're super popular, it happened with Greninja ("ew is that it's tongue? Must be bad fan art") and he's one of the most popular Kalos Pokemon, it even happened with Mega Rayquaza and it's still one of the most popular legendaries in the game. The disappointment with this is no different, and it always is the disappointment that's more vocal than those who are satisfied. People like things and dislike other things, Zygarde here is no different really.
    I would argue like HP said, that the reason why people came to like them was because they were fantastic in battle. Honedge ended up becoming one of the best mixed attackers in the game with some neat defensive capabilities thanks to that, Greninja having Protean was a gamechanger and added new ways to play him beyond just a special attacker (and I'd add in that people started warming up to the Ninja motif too), Rayquaza is fairly obvious through Dragon Ascent and the hilariously broken M-Evo mechanics though I recall people still complaining that it looks overdesigned.

  13. #14738
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberBlaziken View Post
    People complained about Mega Rayquaza? I thought it was the epitome of perfection..

    Just wait for the Ken Sugimori art. I'm sure there will be tweaks here and there.
    "Over-designed"

    "Did they turn it into a bug?" before official art was shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Power View Post
    You do realize that all of the examples you've listed have amazing combat capabilities to back them up, don't you? Being a beast in battle can change the perception of the masses pretty significantly.
    Of course, but Zygarde will almost certainly be good to some degree so that doesn't really detract from that point, especially given that Game Freak has proven in ORAS that they know how to make insanely strong legendaries that back up their claims. Also Thousand Arrows.

    Also keep in mind that this isn't exclusive to "good" Pokemon since good is relative. Kyurem-Black for example ("lol fusion this is Digimon now") is one of the less impressive legendaries, and is still popular despite initial criticisms (see also: Reshiram and Palkia). Then Mega Sceptile, who actually isn't that amazing in battle is still popular despite "lol what is this a Christmas tree?" Heliolisk is also evidently popular these days but it's nothing amazing, and then there's Pyroar. People like Pyroar, but it sucks. A lot.

    There are lots of other factors going on that are a different discussion, but my point is many people that are disappointed now will get over it or move on just like they always have. It's a safe assumption that Zygarde will follow suit.
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  14. #14739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynergy View Post
    "Over-designed"

    "Did they turn it into a bug?" before official art was shown.



    Of course, but Zygarde will almost certainly be good to some degree so that doesn't really detract from that point, especially given that Game Freak has proven in ORAS that they know how to make insanely strong legendaries that back up their claims. Also Thousand Arrows.

    Also keep in mind that this isn't exclusive to "good" Pokemon since good is relative. Kyurem-Black for example ("lol fusion this is Digimon now") is one of the less impressive legendaries, and is still popular despite initial criticisms (see also: Reshiram and Palkia). Then Mega Sceptile, who actually isn't that amazing in battle is still popular despite "lol what is this a Christmas tree?" Heliolisk is also evidently popular these days but it's nothing amazing, and then there's Pyroar. People like Pyroar, but it sucks. A lot.

    There are lots of other factors going on that are a different discussion, but my point is many people that are disappointed now will get over it or move on just like they always have. It's a safe assumption that Zygarde will follow suit.
    Ok, i'm sorry but it even if zygarde became just as powerful as mega rayauaza, some people will still hate regardeless because of something called an "opinion" and not everybody judges pokemon based on how good they are competively.

  15. #14740
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    Even Rayquaza.. People are hard to satisfy. Especially in the Pokemon World.


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  16. #14741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynergy View Post
    "Over-designed"

    "Did they turn it into a bug?" before official art was shown.
    It's just the fear of change.

    Hell, it's happened every single time with the Mega evos and new formes. And in some cases the reception was wayy worse (see: Mega Heracross, Kyurem-Black/White, Mega Slowbro). But people eventually get over it. Zygarde and Ashninja's reception has been more positive than many other recent forms and mega evos anyway.

  17. #14742
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    Quote Originally Posted by joseph123 View Post
    Ok, i'm sorry but it even if zygarde became just as powerful as mega rayauaza, some people will still hate regardeless because of something called an "opinion" and not everybody judges pokemon based on how good they are competively.
    ...Yes, just like I'm sure there are people somewhere who dislike just about any given Pokemon. It's the loud complaining he's saying will stop with time; nobody is (nor should be) saying that with time the Zygardes will be unanimously liked. That's not true of any Pokemon, regardless of initial reception.

  18. #14743
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    I don't think the reason people stop complaining is that they have grown to like the specific pokémon in all cases. Although it is of course the case sometimes.
    It might just as well be that there really is no reason to bring it up anymore, when it is no longer a hot topic. Like Kyurem-B/W and Mega Heracross got a lot of hate when revealed, but you don't see much of it now. However the few times the topics actually come up I still see quite conflicting opinions regarding their designs, I would hardly say that any of them are popular design-wise. It's just that many people don't want to be downers and repeat negative opinions again and again. Saying they dislike the pokémon when it was revealed and then be done with it.
    The extremely negative opinions tend to fade completely away though. As in "this is the death of pokémon" tends to merely become "I dislike this pokémon" (or in a few cases they are actually true to their word and stop caring about pokémon altogether and we never hear from them again).
    That said, we have very little info about Zygarde's new toys so I think it is a bit too early to make a definite opinion about them.
    Last edited by Endless; 14th September 2015 at 11:22 AM.



  19. #14744
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    Dudes why so rude its just an observation.
    Just let me describe it to you:
    -green and black
    -multiple stages, larvae, humanoid
    -pointing head
    -its final "form" is called perfect
    -black apendixes like wings
    Who is it?

    Also this got nothing with its design but:
    The anime series where he debuts got a Z on its title

    I know that dragon ball is not as strong like it was 20 years ago but this year dragon ball super came out so right now db is pretty main stream in japan.

    With all this Im NOT saying "f*** pokemon such a rip off". just that they based their design on other stuff too, many times myths, movies and so on this time anime thats all. Now if you can find a myth or a japanese legend about a creature like this so that both cell and zygy can be based on I drop this theory

  20. #14745
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    I have no complaints about Zygarde's new forms. I think they are incredible especially the perfect form. I reckon the perfect form has a bst of either 700 or 780 depending on how strong Game Freak would make it. Also I wonder if there is going to be a Mega Charizard Z and Mega Mewtwo Z? Because it makes sense to have a z version of them since Z comes after Y which comes after X but I guess having three mega evolutions is too much to ask. They probably just include both mega stones of Charizard and Mewtwo in the potential Z game.
    Last edited by Alexander18; 13th September 2015 at 11:45 PM.
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  21. #14746
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    My problem with the dog Zygarde is that it is nothing but a green and black domesticated dog. Nothing about it screams "Legendary Pokemon." If it had nothing to do with Zygarde, it would never pass as a Legendary. Even non-Legendary dog Pokemon, such as Arcanine, have more to their designs than Zygarde 10% has. At least make it a wolf, or something more along the lines of a wild dog. As for all the designs, as a dragon lover, I'm disappointed that none of them are dragons. Zygarde is one of my favorite Pokemon, but these alternate forms probably won't be counted when I think that. Don't get me wrong, I am intrigued by these form changes, as they will probably be something unique, and I think that Perfect Zygarde looks really cool, I'm just a little disappointed.

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  22. #14747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander18 View Post
    Also I wonder if there is going to be a Mega Charizard Z and Mega Mewtwo Z?.
    O.O Oh god, please no. Those two have gotten enough favoritism this gen. They don't need any more.
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  23. #14748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander18 View Post
    I have no complaints about Zygarde's new forms. I think they are incredible especially the perfect form. I reckon the perfect form has a bst of either 700 or 780 depending on how strong Game Freak would make it. Also I wonder if there is going to be a Mega Charizard Z and Mega Mewtwo Z? Because it makes sense to have a z version of them since Z comes after Y which comes after X but I guess having three mega evolutions is too much to ask. They probably just include both mega stones of Charizard and Mewtwo in the potential Z game.
    I can't see this happening, at all (I can just imagine the fan backlash now if it did, though), but I don't mean this in an 'oh-god-Charizard-and-Mewtwo-are-such-overrated-gen-1-Pokemon-they-don't-deserve-one-more-mega-each!' way, just that I don't think it's necessary just because they have an X and Y form already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Painkiller2001 View Post
    I can't see this happening, at all (I can just imagine the fan backlash now if it did, though), but I don't mean this in an 'oh-god-Charizard-and-Mewtwo-are-such-overrated-gen-1-Pokemon-they-don't-deserve-one-more-mega-each!' way, just that I don't think it's necessary just because they have an X and Y form already.
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    While I understand the complaints about the Kyurem forms (well for the most part), I personally would say that if they had one thing over Zygarde's new forms, it's that they kept their thematic straight. With Kyurem, it's a decrepit ice dragon that lacks energy, that's why it sought Reshiram/Zekrom so that it could be whole again. Black and White Kyurem keep that thematic as they are half decrepit ice dragons who got some of that power back, with the addition of the fact that their forms were half complete and thus didn't look whole, resulting in monstrosities that were either too masculine or feminine (well, as feminine as a decrepit dragon could be) and still seemed incomplete. In that respect, I felt they worked because they had an idea for Kyurem and kept that idea throughout the three forms. Same with Mega Heracross for that matter as while I don't like the design, it did advance its original concept of being a horned beetle.

    With Zygarde, I can't say the same even if the Norse theory is true. There's really no consistent thematic between the form we originally see Zygarde in (as a snake) and the forms we got aside from the cells (who look like baby snakes/flatworms). The dog is completely out of nowhere and doesn't mesh well with any of the other three whereas the titan doesn't keep much from Zygarde's snake form or the other two forms. The only consistent feature between the four is the hexagons, but everything else about them doesn't flow well into each other. Maybe once we get their lore it'll seem more consistent from that perspective, but just going by design, I feel that there's not a lot of coherency in them aside from the cells and snake forms.
    Last edited by Taodragon; 14th September 2015 at 4:07 AM.


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