The Water Flowers of Cerulean City! (007)

[Misty#1]

I love this episode!!! Love the part where Misty says "Oh, no, Starmie looks like it's in real pain," and Ash says "How can you tell, it doesn't even have a face!" LOL!

[7threst]

For the people that continuously claim that Ash didn't deserve to win this badge, I implore them to read the first page and read that analysis

But aside from that, the episode was really, really, really solid. It's overall plot-line was interesting and the events that happened during this episode were enjoyable to watch. I still wonder what "stuff" Brock had to do just before Ash went to the gym. My guesstimate is that it must have been getting some supplies or something mandatory that requires Brock to leave the posse for awhile.

[Vern]

For the people that continuously claim that Ash didn't deserve to win this badge, I implore them to read the first page and read that analysis

"You're not using a Pokemon that would sweep the other's person's team? You should win the badge for doing so? Take out the opponents strongest Pokemon? That's an automatic win for you."

Just like the show has always taught the kids.

[7threst]

"You're not using a Pokemon that would sweep the other's person's team? You should win the badge for doing so? Take out the opponents strongest Pokemon? That's an automatic win for you."

Just like the show has always taught the kids.

Maybe you didn't read the analysis of Gryphon on the first page. Therefore, I will re-quote it for you.

Here's a reality check for anyone and everyone that seriously thinks Ash only got this badge due to pity:

I also have the tape, and it's pretty clear that Ash earned that Cascade Badge(no matter how much Misty and her fans whine about it). Two things Daisy stated to Misty should help clarify this(both in the same sentence):

"Pikachu was the one that, like, saved us all, and if Ash had used Pikachu from the start, there was no way that your water pokemon could have won."

Also consider that Pikachu was *ordered* by Ash to blow away TR, and it was ultimately Ash himself that stopped their machine. On top of *that*, Ash had gotten ahead of Misty 1-0 in their match. (Butterfree being recalled *before* Misty's Staryu could finish it off, Staryu getting recalled when Ash sent out Pidgeotto, and her Stamie getting the same treatment from Pidgeotto that     Spoiler:

Show Spoiler

 
Ash's Pikachu would get three years later from E4 Drake's Shellgon
 

!) Since Misty's strongest pokemon---Starmie---had just been Whirlwinded out of commission by a still-raring-to-go Pidgeotto, she would have been forced to use her Staryu---this was 2vs2---against an opponent who was now wise to her tactics. Even if---and that's a *huge* if---Pidgeotto had eventually gone down, Staryu would have had to deal with a now-rested Butterfree(who, IIRC, knew some of the same Flying attacks that Pidgeotto had)!

The only pity in that scene was for Misty, not for Ash...Daisy knew that Ash would have prevealed, despite her younger sister's sabotage(Misty certainly didn't pass up on the opportunity to use her bond with Ash's Pikachu against Ash himself).

1. Misty sabotaged a possible KO for her by using her bond with Ash's Pikachu. If Pikachu - hypothetically - wasn't affected by this sabotage and did participate in the match, Misty wouldn't stand a chance because of the humongous type-advantage Pikachu got against Misty's water Pokémon. This is evident by the statement from Daisy:

"Pikachu was the one that, like, saved us all, and if Ash had used Pikachu from the start, there was no way that your water pokemon could have won."

2. As Gryphon thoroughly explained in his analyse, Misty had no chance of winning. Ash was 1-0 ahead and both Butterfree and Pidgeotto were still in battle-shape. If - hypothetically - the match was to be continued after Team Rocket was blasted away, the chances of a victory for Misty were zero to none.

Ash showed clear dominance in this match. Ash rightfully deserved this badge. The only person(s) to blame for the way of Ash getting this badge is: Team Rocket. There are plenty of indications before Team Rocket even arrived that Ash was clearly superior (As explained in Gryphons analyse).

[Vern]

Maybe you didn't read the analysis of Gryphon on the first page. Therefore, I will re-quote it for you.

Back at you.

"Pikachu was the one that, like, saved us all, and if Ash had used Pikachu from the start, there was no way that your water pokemon could have won."

"Ash didn't use Pikachu. But if he did he would've won." But he didn't so it doesn't matter since gym battles are decided between the Pokemon used in battle and not the Pokemon not in the battle.

Also consider that Pikachu was *ordered* by Ash to blow away TR, and it was ultimately Ash himself that stopped their machine.

Irrelevant.

On top of *that*, Ash had gotten ahead of Misty 1-0 in their match. (Butterfree being recalled *before* Misty's Staryu could finish it off, Staryu getting recalled when Ash sent out Pidgeotto, and her Stamie getting the same treatment from Pidgeotto that Ash's Pikachu would get three years later from E4 Drake's Shellgon!) Since Misty's strongest pokemon---Starmie---had just been Whirlwinded out of commission by a still-raring-to-go Pidgeotto, she would have been forced to use her Staryu---this was 2vs2---against an opponent who was now wise to her tactics. Even if---and that's a *huge* if---Pidgeotto had eventually gone down, Staryu would have had to deal with a now-rested Butterfree(who, IIRC, knew some of the same Flying attacks that Pidgeotto had)!

2-1 disadvantage is nothing unheard of in the anime and it has been overcome before. Also, solely because Misty's strongest Pokemon was taken out doesn't mean anything. Pikachu has been beaten in battle before but I don't see Ash losing most battle because of that.

1. Misty sabotaged a possible KO for her by using her bond with Ash's Pikachu. If Pikachu - hypothetically - wasn't affected by this sabotage and did participate in the match, Misty wouldn't stand a chance because of the humongous type-advantage Pikachu got against Misty's water Pokémon. This is evident by the statement from Daisy:

First off, Pikachu was the one that didn't want to battle in the first place. Misty did jack-**** to manipulate it. Secondly, battles are decided between the Pokemon in the battle and not the sidelines. Unless, we want to take away Ash's final frontier symbol since Brandon didn't use all of the Regi.

2. As Gryphon thoroughly explained in his analyse, Misty had no chance of winning. Ash was 1-0 ahead and both Butterfree and Pidgeotto were still in battle-shape. If - hypothetically - the match was to be continued after Team Rocket was blasted away, the chances of a victory for Misty were zero to none.

Except 1-0 leads have been lost and anything could've happened. Ash has gone up in battles where he dominated early but lost in the end anyway. If we want to play hypothetical situations, Misty could of surged back with Staryu.

Ash showed clear dominance in this match. Ash rightfully deserved this badge. The only person(s) to blame for the way of Ash getting this badge is: Team Rocket. There are plenty of indications before Team Rocket even arrived that Ash was clearly superior (As explained in Gryphons analyse).

Read above silly.

[7threst]

Back at you.

Let's see!

"Ash didn't use Pikachu. But if he did he would've won." But he didn't so it doesn't matter since gym battles are decided between the Pokemon used in battle and not the Pokemon not in the battle.

Ash didn't use his Pikachu because Pikachu was (un)intentionally manipulated by Misty. Therefore, Misty, the opponent of Ash and then for one episode, gym leader, cheated. And because she cheated, that influenced the whole match. This isn't only about the match itself, it's also about what happened around it. The argument that Ash's didn't deserved to win this badge already loses weight because of Misty taking advantage of Pikachu decision. A gym leader would have stimulated Pikachu to fight. No, she didn't want to get obliterated by Pikachu and therefore cheered Pikachu's decision not to battle.

2. I think you need to do some bit of research. Nowhere in the anime until that point was it stipulated that the only official way of obtaining a badge would be by winning. It was only presumed to be that way by the audience, that get their presumptions and interpretations from playing the games and think it's applicable to the anime. That is like comparing a peer with a apple. Just because they are in the same category, doesn't mean they are comparable with each other. That's erroneous fallacy.

2-1 disadvantage is nothing unheard of in the anime and it has been overcome before. Also, solely because Misty's strongest Pokemon was taken out doesn't mean anything. Pikachu has been beaten in battle before but I don't see Ash losing most battle because of that.

I agree that the above mentioned example did occasionally happened during the anime, but still, that remains a assumption that Misty could have won solely based on the fact that the exact circumstances occasionally took place and the underdog surprisingly won. Gryphon came out with facts. Facts about the exact situation the battle was in before Team Rocket arrived. Facts, universally, are accepted to carry more value and weight against assumptions.

First off, Pikachu was the one that didn't want to battle in the first place. Misty did jack-**** to manipulate it. Secondly, battles are decided between the Pokemon in the battle and not the sidelines. Unless, we want to take away Ash's final frontier symbol since Brandon didn't use all of the Regi.

Difference between Pikachu and Brandon:
-Brandon CHOOSE not to use one of Regi's
-Pikachu REFUSED to battle because of Misty and her small (un)intentional manipulative tactics.

Don't overgeneralize stuff that quick please.

Except 1-0 leads have been lost and anything could've happened. Ash has gone up in battles where he dominated early but lost in the end anyway. If we want to play hypothetical situations, Misty could of surged back with Staryu.

My hypothetical examples are at least based on the solid facts Gryphon has presented in his take on the Misty fans. Your hypothetical example is based on none facts other than "Yeah, well it happened that sometimes there were these comebacks, so it could have happened with Misty.

Read that could part again. Could in a hypothetical example is tantamount to speculation.

Read above silly.]

To answer this last comment of yours, I will refrain from calling it deplorable. But seeing as you can't be convinced - even when the facts are obviously and thoroughly explained to you - then let's play it your way. So, the match ended after Team Rocket was blasted/sucked away in the water. Seeing as both parties and the third party (The three sisters) unanimously agreed after some arguing that the match was over, Ash was presented the second badge.

Now, statistically, let's see the results of the Match.

Ash:
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

Misty:
Staryu: Called out against Butterfree. Resulted in stalemate before Butterfree first was recalled and afterwards Staryu
Starmie: Called out against Pidgeotto but got defeated with ease.

Results:
Ash: 2 Pokemon still battle-ready
Misty: 1 eliminated and one still battle-ready.

Ash therefore - according to the statistics - deserved the second badge in accordance to the unanimous decision made by all the parties at the end of the episode that the match was officially over.

[Demonsead]

7threst, everything you have quoted is completely true.

[Vern]

^ lol Misty cheating and Starmie being knocked out is all true. Besides the fact that they aren't.

You don't know what a pity badge is. I explained it in the spoiler but I'll put it here too: "Pity badge is simply defined as him, or anyone, not winning a badge through battle." Read more here: http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...-s-pity-badges

    Spoiler:- Response:

Show Spoiler

 

Ash didn't use his Pikachu because Pikachu was (un)intentionally manipulated by Misty. Therefore, Misty, the opponent of Ash and then for one episode, gym leader, cheated.

Pikachu itself chose not to battle and Ash himself accepted that. As a result, Misty cheated. This troll.

And because she cheated, that influenced the whole match. This isn't only about the match itself, it's also about what happened around it. The argument that Ash's didn't deserved to win this badge already loses weight because of Misty taking advantage of Pikachu decision. A gym leader would have stimulated Pikachu to fight. No, she didn't want to get obliterated by Pikachu and therefore cheered Pikachu's decision not to battle.

Except she didn't cheat. Pikachu choosing not to battle and Ash not forcing it to doesn't equate to Misty cheating in any way. Misty didn't say anything about it until Ash had already accepted that Pikachu wasn't going to battle. A Gym Leader has no say in what Pokemon the trainer chooses. In fact, that would be more manipulating than what happened in the actual battle.

2. I think you need to do some bit of research. Nowhere in the anime until that point was it stipulated that the only official way of obtaining a badge would be by winning. It was only presumed to be that way by the audience, that get their presumptions and interpretations from playing the games and think it's applicable to the anime. That is like comparing a peer with a apple. Just because they are in the same category, doesn't mean they are comparable with each other. That's erroneous fallacy.

It seems you are the one that needs to do research. "Pity badge" is a fan term so whether or not it's acknowledged in the show is meaningless as whether or not it is a pity badge. In fact, a "pity badge" is simply defined as him, or anyone, not winning a badge through battle. Also, fans acknowledge that a trainer can get a badge from doing a good deed but that doesn't stop it from being a pity badge. In fact, that's how the term came to be in the first place.

I agree that the above mentioned example did occasionally happened during the anime, but still, that remains a assumption that Misty could have won solely based on the fact that the exact circumstances occasionally took place and the underdog surprisingly won.

And you're working under the assumption that Misty would've stuck to a similar strategy that she had been using before. Assumptions work both ways here. You're working under the assumption that Ash would've won the battle.

Gryphon came out with facts. Facts about the exact situation the battle was in before Team Rocket arrived. Facts, universally, are accepted to carry more value and weight against assumptions.

"Facts" that are meaningless is the context of the battle. Taking the word of Daisy, a person who was deemed as a poor trainer and Gym Leader back then and even now, over the results of a battle and battle strategies is questionable at best.

Let's look at the "facts": "Pikachu was the one that, like, saved us all, and if Ash had used Pikachu from the start, there was no way that your water Pokemon could have won." Probably true but that doesn't matter since the Pokemon in the battle decide the outcome. This is a would've, could've, should've.

"Also consider that Pikachu was *ordered* by Ash to blow away TR, and it was ultimately Ash himself that stopped their machine." This is true but has nothing to do with the battle. This, in fact, begins to fall in line with the definition for pity badge since the initial reason Daisy gave for giving him the badge was saving the Pokemon.

"On top of *that*, Ash had gotten ahead of Misty 1-0 in their match." Not true. Misty herself stated that it was getting low on energy and nothing else. She didn't say it couldn't battle. In fact, no one stated that it was unable to battle and Ash himself was preparing for another attack before Team Rocket interrupted.

"Since Misty's strongest pokemon---Starmie---had just been Whirlwinded out of commission by a still-raring-to-go Pidgeotto," Again. Starmie was still able to battle. Also, this person assumes that Starmie is Misty's strongest Pokemon even though there is no evidence to support that theory. The anime even goes out of its way to show us that evolved Pokemon are not always stronger.

"The only pity in that scene was for Misty, not for Ash...Daisy knew that Ash would have prevealed, despite her younger sister's sabotage(Misty certainly didn't pass up on the opportunity to use her bond with Ash's Pikachu against Ash himself)." Out of context evidence. Misty didn't do anything. Pikachu initially refused to battle and Ash pointed this out. He then began to choose another Pokemon when he had accepted that Pikachu wasn't going to battle and then Misty said something about it. She never stated anything during it because it isn't her decision as to what Pokemon Ash was going to use. Ash was the one at fault for not raising his Pikachu well enough if anything. Again, using Daisy as evidence is laughable. She isn't reliable at all when it comes to battling from what we were shown. Also, Misty can't choose what Pokemon Ash chose during the battle. Was she happy that she didn't have to face Pikachu? Yeah but there was nothing she could do about it even if she wanted to face Pikachu.

Difference between Pikachu and Brandon:
-Brandon CHOOSE not to use one of Regi's
-Pikachu REFUSED to battle because of Misty and her small (un)intentional manipulative tactics.

Stop. Ash also chose not to use Pikachu. All things considered, Ash could've simply ordered Pikachu into battle. He just decided to not use it in the battle without further pressing the issue. Again, Misty did nothing. If anything, blame Ash for being a bad trainer back then.

Don't overgeneralize stuff that quick please.

Hard to overgeneralize when you're telling me that Misty cheated because she manipulated Pikachu into not battling. Or when you don't know the definition of a pity badge.

My hypothetical examples are at least based on the solid facts Gryphon has presented in his take on the Misty fans. Your hypothetical example is based on none facts other than "Yeah, well it happened that sometimes there were these comebacks, so it could have happened with Misty.

I just poked holes into those "facts." Your "facts" rely on the words of trainers that were below Misty's battling skills even back in episode seven. Trainers who had no business being Gym Leaders and almost got the gym closed in a future episode. Their track record alone shows them to be unreliable sources of anything battling related. The fact that you believe that Daisy has any type of reliability in battling strategies is amusing at best.

Read that could part again. Could in a hypothetical example is tantamount to speculation. \

Works both ways.

To answer this last comment of yours, I will refrain from calling it deplorable. But seeing as you can't be convinced - even when the facts are obviously and thoroughly explained to you - then let's play it your way. So, the match ended after Team Rocket was blasted/sucked away in the water. Seeing as both parties and the third party (The three sisters) unanimously agreed after some arguing that the match was over, Ash was presented the second badge.

Learn the definition of pity badge.

Now, statistically, let's see the results of the Match.

Ash:
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

Misty:
Staryu: Called out against Butterfree. Resulted in stalemate before Butterfree first was recalled and afterwards Staryu
Starmie: Called out against Pidgeotto but got defeated with ease.

Results:
Ash: 2 Pokemon still battle-ready
Misty: 1 eliminated and one still battle-ready.

Ash therefore - according to the statistics - deserved the second badge in accordance to the unanimous decision made by all the parties at the end of the episode that the match was officially over.

Starmie wasn't beaten. Misty even said "Oh no, Starmie is low on energy." Not beaten. Also, Ash was told he deserved the badge for saving the Pokemon. Daisy just added that he would've won if he had used Pikachu but that it irrelevant since Pikachu wasn't in the battle. Ash even sated that he guessed that he wasn't going to get the badge. What does it tell you if the trainer himself didn't believe he was going to get the badge?

Did you just use statistics in a show that didn't even follow all of the rules of its source material? The show that has shown to go against all logic in multiple battles and on multiple occasions? Again statistics don't mean anything in actual practice. If we take something like sporting events, they have statistics but both teams are still forced to play the game because statistics mean jack in actual practice because of different factors during the event.
 

[7threst]

You know Terra, after reading that last comment, I must apologize . You were mostly right and I was bad informed about the exact definition of pity-badge. I re-watched the episode and that specific part we're were discussing and you were right that Misty didn't cheat or manipulate Pikachu. She only made a comment afterwards about it.


I agree that this badge specifically is very debatable whether it is a pity badge or not. I stand by the fact that Ash was in many ways having advantages by type and the match was going most in his favor. And yes, it did occasionally happened that Ash or others made surprising comebacks and won the match as an result. So therefore, I will correct myself: This badge a pity badge, but it could (Oehh speculation) have been close in earning his first non-pity badge XD.

[Vern]

It should've been his first non-pity badge. But the writers hate him or something.

Sorry for sounding so rude, but I've been rather grumpy lately and replying to long posts doesn't help that. (p'.')p

[pokemon fan 132]

Ash:
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

It wouldn't be first time, with Brock forfeiting with Geodude in PK1 tournament before Hitmonlee knocked it, Pryce which threw towel stopping battle between Piloswine and Pikachu etc.

Part of reason why im questioning this, is because judging by dialogue in that episode Misty said how they were tied and Ash didn't won.

As for outcome of battle, i have to agree with Terra Branford. There is nothing to suggest that Starmie was stronger than Staryu, which showed greater fighting abilities in that battle.

[7threst]

About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

It wouldn't be first time, with Brock forfeiting with Geodude in PK1 tournament before Hitmonlee knocked it, Pryce which threw towel stopping battle between Piloswine and Pikachu etc.

Part of reason why im questioning this, is because judging by dialogue in that episode Misty said how they were tied and Ash didn't won.

As for outcome of battle, i have to agree with Terra Branford. There is nothing to suggest that Starmie was stronger than Staryu, which showed greater fighting abilities in that battle.

Well, if Butterfree was knocked out of commission, then it would also seem uncontroversial to say that Starmie was defeated to by Ash's Pidgeotto. Therefore, it would be a tie. But me and Terra agreed upon that this is a pity-badge, but if Team Rocket didn't interfere with the match and the writers didn't hate Ash that much, It would be understandable to say out of how the match went and the type disadvantage Misty had, that Ash clearly was on the winning hand. But then again, I can't predict a hypothetical outcome because there was, unfortunately, never a outcome.

[WhyHelloThere]

This episode was much better than the boring one before it. Misty's sisters are annoying as heck. Too bad Team Rocket interrupted with their silly plan. Unlike Pewter Gym, Ash actually had a good chance at winning this battle but I guess the writers didn't want him to seem better than his travelling companions yet.

[FullMetalAlchemist]

I liked this episode. Getting to see Misty's sisters was the highlight of it all.

[Caseydia]

This episode was much better than the boring one before it. Misty's sisters are annoying as heck. Too bad Team Rocket interrupted with their silly plan. Unlike Pewter Gym, Ash actually had a good chance at winning this battle but I guess the writers didn't want him to seem better than his travelling companions yet.

I liked Misty's sisters. But you could tell that they weren't interested in gym battles. They reminded me of coordinators almost. However the gym battle was nice until it was interrupted. Those girls should have never gave Ash that badge after getting a pity badge from Brock before. This is why I don't like this series.

[BurningSociety12345543210]

I have only one thing to say here.

Ash should have won this battle.

About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

Nope, he didn't forfeit. It was just called back.

[Demon Kitsune Yoko Kurama]

Amazing episode. I think it's because Misty, Starmie, and Staryu battled. I liked how Staryu was clumsy at the beginning of the battle. :3 I agree with the earlier posts. Starmie didn't lose the battle, Misty just said it was about to run out of energy. And if Ash did use Pikachu, how would that work out? I doubt Pikachu would swim in the pool, so Staryu and Starmie would still have the advantage. Ash didn't start having smart strategies yet. I know I sound biased towards them. Haha, and the James joke was still funny.

[AhTreyYou]

I really enjoyed the Ash vs Misty battle. Good to see Butterfree in a Gym Battle

[duh]

I really enjoyed the Ash vs Misty battle. Good to see Butterfree in a Gym Battle

Even though it did terribly in the battle, yes it was good to see Butterfree.

[Mystical Jackal]

For the second gym battle, I think it was easier than battling against Brock. The battle was cool and a little short as well.

Misty's sisters are so lazy that they prefered to offer the badge to Ash for free than battling against him later, this didn't sound good for me if you consider that they conquered the gym leader position and should show some effort on that instead distributing badges away. Second thing is that after blowing Team Rocket out, Ash received the badge right away from the girls. The right thing would that Ash and Misty should have finished the battle, but I think that the autor wanted to show the public that there are other methods to win a thing without winning the traditional way.