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Thread: The Water Flowers of Cerulean City! (007)

  1. #126
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    Back at you.
    Let's see!

    "Ash didn't use Pikachu. But if he did he would've won." But he didn't so it doesn't matter since gym battles are decided between the Pokemon used in battle and not the Pokemon not in the battle.
    Ash didn't use his Pikachu because Pikachu was (un)intentionally manipulated by Misty. Therefore, Misty, the opponent of Ash and then for one episode, gym leader, cheated. And because she cheated, that influenced the whole match. This isn't only about the match itself, it's also about what happened around it. The argument that Ash's didn't deserved to win this badge already loses weight because of Misty taking advantage of Pikachu decision. A gym leader would have stimulated Pikachu to fight. No, she didn't want to get obliterated by Pikachu and therefore cheered Pikachu's decision not to battle.

    2. I think you need to do some bit of research. Nowhere in the anime until that point was it stipulated that the only official way of obtaining a badge would be by winning. It was only presumed to be that way by the audience, that get their presumptions and interpretations from playing the games and think it's applicable to the anime. That is like comparing a peer with a apple. Just because they are in the same category, doesn't mean they are comparable with each other. That's erroneous fallacy.

    2-1 disadvantage is nothing unheard of in the anime and it has been overcome before. Also, solely because Misty's strongest Pokemon was taken out doesn't mean anything. Pikachu has been beaten in battle before but I don't see Ash losing most battle because of that.
    I agree that the above mentioned example did occasionally happened during the anime, but still, that remains a assumption that Misty could have won solely based on the fact that the exact circumstances occasionally took place and the underdog surprisingly won. Gryphon came out with facts. Facts about the exact situation the battle was in before Team Rocket arrived. Facts, universally, are accepted to carry more value and weight against assumptions.

    First off, Pikachu was the one that didn't want to battle in the first place. Misty did jack-**** to manipulate it. Secondly, battles are decided between the Pokemon in the battle and not the sidelines. Unless, we want to take away Ash's final frontier symbol since Brandon didn't use all of the Regi.
    Difference between Pikachu and Brandon:
    -Brandon CHOOSE not to use one of Regi's
    -Pikachu REFUSED to battle because of Misty and her small (un)intentional manipulative tactics.

    Don't overgeneralize stuff that quick please.

    Except 1-0 leads have been lost and anything could've happened. Ash has gone up in battles where he dominated early but lost in the end anyway. If we want to play hypothetical situations, Misty could of surged back with Staryu.
    My hypothetical examples are at least based on the solid facts Gryphon has presented in his take on the Misty fans. Your hypothetical example is based on none facts other than "Yeah, well it happened that sometimes there were these comebacks, so it could have happened with Misty.

    Read that could part again. Could in a hypothetical example is tantamount to speculation.

    Read above silly.]
    To answer this last comment of yours, I will refrain from calling it deplorable. But seeing as you can't be convinced - even when the facts are obviously and thoroughly explained to you - then let's play it your way. So, the match ended after Team Rocket was blasted/sucked away in the water. Seeing as both parties and the third party (The three sisters) unanimously agreed after some arguing that the match was over, Ash was presented the second badge.

    Now, statistically, let's see the results of the Match.

    Ash:
    Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
    Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie

    Misty:
    Staryu: Called out against Butterfree. Resulted in stalemate before Butterfree first was recalled and afterwards Staryu
    Starmie: Called out against Pidgeotto but got defeated with ease.

    Results:
    Ash: 2 Pokemon still battle-ready
    Misty: 1 eliminated and one still battle-ready.

    Ash therefore - according to the statistics - deserved the second badge in accordance to the unanimous decision made by all the parties at the end of the episode that the match was officially over.

  2. #127
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    7threst, everything you have quoted is completely true.
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  3. #128
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    ^ lol Misty cheating and Starmie being knocked out is all true. Besides the fact that they aren't.

    You don't know what a pity badge is. I explained it in the spoiler but I'll put it here too: "Pity badge is simply defined as him, or anyone, not winning a badge through battle." Read more here: http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthr...-s-pity-badges

        Spoiler:- Response:
    Last edited by Vernikova; 28th August 2012 at 3:52 AM.

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  4. #129
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    You know Terra, after reading that last comment, I must apologize . You were mostly right and I was bad informed about the exact definition of pity-badge. I re-watched the episode and that specific part we're were discussing and you were right that Misty didn't cheat or manipulate Pikachu. She only made a comment afterwards about it.


    I agree that this badge specifically is very debatable whether it is a pity badge or not. I stand by the fact that Ash was in many ways having advantages by type and the match was going most in his favor. And yes, it did occasionally happened that Ash or others made surprising comebacks and won the match as an result. So therefore, I will correct myself: This badge a pity badge, but it could (Oehh speculation) have been close in earning his first non-pity badge XD.

  5. #130
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    It should've been his first non-pity badge. But the writers hate him or something.

    Sorry for sounding so rude, but I've been rather grumpy lately and replying to long posts doesn't help that. (p'.')p
    Last edited by Vernikova; 28th August 2012 at 11:51 AM.

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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7threst View Post
    Ash:
    Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
    Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie
    About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

    It wouldn't be first time, with Brock forfeiting with Geodude in PK1 tournament before Hitmonlee knocked it, Pryce which threw towel stopping battle between Piloswine and Pikachu etc.

    Part of reason why im questioning this, is because judging by dialogue in that episode Misty said how they were tied and Ash didn't won.

    As for outcome of battle, i have to agree with Terra Branford. There is nothing to suggest that Starmie was stronger than Staryu, which showed greater fighting abilities in that battle.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.

    It wouldn't be first time, with Brock forfeiting with Geodude in PK1 tournament before Hitmonlee knocked it, Pryce which threw towel stopping battle between Piloswine and Pikachu etc.

    Part of reason why im questioning this, is because judging by dialogue in that episode Misty said how they were tied and Ash didn't won.

    As for outcome of battle, i have to agree with Terra Branford. There is nothing to suggest that Starmie was stronger than Staryu, which showed greater fighting abilities in that battle.
    Well, if Butterfree was knocked out of commission, then it would also seem uncontroversial to say that Starmie was defeated to by Ash's Pidgeotto. Therefore, it would be a tie. But me and Terra agreed upon that this is a pity-badge, but if Team Rocket didn't interfere with the match and the writers didn't hate Ash that much, It would be understandable to say out of how the match went and the type disadvantage Misty had, that Ash clearly was on the winning hand. But then again, I can't predict a hypothetical outcome because there was, unfortunately, never a outcome.

  8. #133
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    This episode was much better than the boring one before it. Misty's sisters are annoying as heck. Too bad Team Rocket interrupted with their silly plan. Unlike Pewter Gym, Ash actually had a good chance at winning this battle but I guess the writers didn't want him to seem better than his travelling companions yet.

  9. #134
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    I liked this episode. Getting to see Misty's sisters was the highlight of it all.
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  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by octopusG44 View Post
    This episode was much better than the boring one before it. Misty's sisters are annoying as heck. Too bad Team Rocket interrupted with their silly plan. Unlike Pewter Gym, Ash actually had a good chance at winning this battle but I guess the writers didn't want him to seem better than his travelling companions yet.
    I liked Misty's sisters. But you could tell that they weren't interested in gym battles. They reminded me of coordinators almost. However the gym battle was nice until it was interrupted. Those girls should have never gave Ash that badge after getting a pity badge from Brock before. This is why I don't like this series.
    Last edited by Caseydia; 10th November 2012 at 5:03 PM.

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  11. #136
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    I have only one thing to say here.

    Ash should have won this battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    About that battle against Butterfree, do we know for sure that he wasn't defeated? Ash could just forfeit with him before being knocked out, considering how helpless it was after Staryu threw it in water, starting drowning.
    Nope, he didn't forfeit. It was just called back.

  12. #137
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    Amazing episode. I think it's because Misty, Starmie, and Staryu battled. I liked how Staryu was clumsy at the beginning of the battle. :3 I agree with the earlier posts. Starmie didn't lose the battle, Misty just said it was about to run out of energy. And if Ash did use Pikachu, how would that work out? I doubt Pikachu would swim in the pool, so Staryu and Starmie would still have the advantage. Ash didn't start having smart strategies yet. I know I sound biased towards them. Haha, and the James joke was still funny.

  13. #138
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    I really enjoyed the Ash vs Misty battle. Good to see Butterfree in a Gym Battle

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    Quote Originally Posted by AhTreyYou View Post
    I really enjoyed the Ash vs Misty battle. Good to see Butterfree in a Gym Battle
    Even though it did terribly in the battle, yes it was good to see Butterfree.

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    For the second gym battle, I think it was easier than battling against Brock. The battle was cool and a little short as well.

    Misty's sisters are so lazy that they prefered to offer the badge to Ash for free than battling against him later, this didn't sound good for me if you consider that they conquered the gym leader position and should show some effort on that instead distributing badges away. Second thing is that after blowing Team Rocket out, Ash received the badge right away from the girls. The right thing would that Ash and Misty should have finished the battle, but I think that the autor wanted to show the public that there are other methods to win a thing without winning the traditional way.
    Last edited by Pogaymon; 8th April 2013 at 10:32 PM.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vernikova View Post
    It should've been his first non-pity badge. But the writers hate him or something.

    Sorry for sounding so rude, but I've been rather grumpy lately and replying to long posts doesn't help that. (p'.')p
    I think it has more to do with a misguided attempt at showing him winning a badge creatively and somehow missing that it comes off as a cheap win.

    And I do agree, that this should have been an actual win. Even, then with Brock for example it's understandable. Onix in addition to having a type advantage against all of Ash's Pokemon at the time, and being well huge. Or Sabrina for instance had a strong Kadabra, and at the time Psychic Pokemon were for the most part treated as the strongest type.

    I mean had Pidgeotto won, and recalls (like Staryu) worked against the trainer, then Ash would have won and in a manner that wasn't cheap.

  17. #142
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    In Kanto saga, Ash got some 'pity' badges, Cascade badge is one of them. Kanto saga is good, but I dislike the fact that Ash got so many cheap wins in Kanto gym battles. I don't get why the writers gave Ash badges so easily in Kanto saga. Misty's sisters were hot, but they're kinda annoying too.
    Last edited by PokemontrainerY; 26th September 2013 at 9:07 AM.
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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiyonder View Post
    I think it has more to do with a misguided attempt at showing him winning a badge creatively and somehow missing that it comes off as a cheap win.

    And I do agree, that this should have been an actual win. Even, then with Brock for example it's understandable. Onix in addition to having a type advantage against all of Ash's Pokemon at the time, and being well huge. Or Sabrina for instance had a strong Kadabra, and at the time Psychic Pokemon were for the most part treated as the strongest type.

    I mean had Pidgeotto won, and recalls (like Staryu) worked against the trainer, then Ash would have won and in a manner that wasn't cheap.
    Yup yup. Totes agree. It's a shame since it could've simply been used as his first straight-forward win in a gym battle which would've done a lot on its own. At the very least, the were able to pull it off much better in the next battle with Surge.

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  19. #144
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    I'd love Brock to explain his strange behaviour that day

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    Another favorite of mine from my childhood. This gym battle episode I feel was much better than with Brock's, if only because it was a straightforward battle, and Ash did use his other Pokémon and showed what they could do. It probably was a good thing Pikachu refused to battle as it would've all been one-sided much like how her sisters pointed out. It's rather interesting to see that Misty did not hesitate to challenge Ash if only because of her grudge. You'd think his reaction to learning she was one of the gym leaders of Cerulean would be more in awe, but eh. On a meta-example, as a kid, I hadn't played the games yet, so Misty being a gym leader was a twist to me that made it up for Ash's reaction.

    So the character who had development the most here was Misty, which makes since given it's pretty much her episode. (Is it just me, or was she a bit of a romantic in these early episodes? Unless it's just the dub?) She really must not like her sisters very much to have never hinted at them before, let alone her status as a gym leader. The reveal of Goldeen in the second episode I feel doesn't really cut it for me since we never saw her battle. Though it's possible she's not that great of a battler, which is why she left home to go train, if her sisters are anything to go by. They said she has the most talent out of the four of them, so something tells me the Cerulean Gym isn't a difficult challenge for trainers if the sisters are like that. As for the Sensational Sisters, they are interesting characters, and I'm glad we get to see them again from time to time, but I do wish we got to know about them a little bit more. I can't remember who played the sisters (as familiar as their voices sound), but the whole “valley girl” attitude they gave them wasn't as annoying as how the fandom seemed to have made it out to be. Or I just didn't remember it that well. Also, Rachel Lillis sounded really good here as Misty, probably because of how energetic she was to begin with.

    Team Rocket's break-in is similar to that in the games, I've noticed. However, their idea was... not well-thought out. Their plan was to suck up water for Water Pokémon? Was there any proof that there were Water Pokémon in that pool prior to the “Misty Mermaid” episode? And even then, I think they set up the pool prior to the shows anyway, Pokémon included, so their idea sunk. (They also apparently didn't hook it up properly since Seel was outside.) And yes, I'm aware of James' comment, but I'm not commenting on it like everyone else did. It's too redundant.

    We meet another Officer Jenny, who has a distinct personality of her own (though maybe as ditzy as Viridian City's Jenny). I have to do a double take at her saying she an Viridian!Jenny are sister-in-laws. Sister-in-law??? That makes me really tilt my head even though that mystery is kinda answered later on in the show (like way later on). However, I have found a little bit of detail that helps tell these Jennies apart a little bit: the sigmas on their hats. Viridian City's Jenny as a five-pointed star, while Cerulean's Jenny is a pentagon. Also, though it may just be me, but their hair colors are also slightly different. Viridian's has more green in her hair than Cerulean's, which is more blue. Forgot to check back with Joy, but most often than not, I've noticed the cross' color differs on the hat, so... yeah.

    Also, lol at Brock getting turned down with a burn when he asked her out. “I'm not off duty until past your bedtime.” XD

    I'm noticing a pattern when it comes to the badges. The reason Ash gets badges the way he does is because they insist he take the badges, even though he clearly refuses to accept them so easily, but they talk him into it. ASH, STOP GIVING IN TO PRESSURE. They apparently give him the badges because even though he does have the upper-hand, and can finish the fight with one last attack, they don't allow him to finish the fight correctly. Thank goodness Lt. Surge's battle went normally, meanwhile I have a feeling I'm gonna have a bone to pick with Erika if I remember correctly.

    I swear, this episode was probably where 4KIDS started to hint at Pokéshipping. I wonder what Daisy really said in the original when she teased Misty about Ash being her boyfriend, which appears to be a running gag in the dub. But the argument during the battle and even afterwards was really great, they bounced off each other pretty well. It kinda reminds me of my brothers and I whenever we have our dumb arguments, but it feels realistic to how ten-year-olds argue with each other, especially those between boys and girls. While I doubt it was as noticeable in the original, is it any wonder the two were teased as a couple in the dub? I doubt 4KIDS planned that out at first.

    Now if only we knew where Brock went to. Unless he went back to Officer Jenny for some reason, Brock basically snuck out of the episode for the most part. Pretty weird.

    So while I think the pacing felt a bit weird, what happened in the episode was what we basically wanted to see, and it was enjoyable. It won't be until we reach Lt. Surge before we learn just how brutal gym battles can be (Brock's first battle with Ash is tame compared to Surge and Sabrina's). But for now, the next six episodes will be nothing but a trip down memory lane, and possibly even a question as to whether I did the math right in my head or not, because I swear it took Ash and friends forever to get to Vermilion.
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  21. #146
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    I watched this episode again and I really enjoyed how suspicious Officer Jenny was of Ash and Brock, and I honestly wonder if the Boulder Badge that Brock showed her was the same one he gave Ash, or another one that he had. Anyway, I liked Pikachu's reaction to seeing Misty's sisters perform their water ballet, although I wasn't sure if he admired their performance or if he just thought they were pretty lol. Seeing Misty battle Ash was the most satisfying part of this episode for me. I liked that Ash couldn't use Pikachu since he refused to battle against a friend, and at least Ash's Butterfree and Pidgeotto got to shine. It's a pity that Misty's Staryu put up a better fight than her Starmie though. Still a good episode nonetheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorde View Post
    I watched this episode again and I really enjoyed how suspicious Officer Jenny was of Ash and Brock, and I honestly wonder if the Boulder Badge that Brock showed her was the same one he gave Ash, or another one that he had. Anyway, I liked Pikachu's reaction to seeing Misty's sisters perform their water ballet, although I wasn't sure if he admired their performance or if he just thought they were pretty lol. Seeing Misty battle Ash was the most satisfying part of this episode for me. I liked that Ash couldn't use Pikachu since he refused to battle against a friend, and at least Ash's Butterfree and Pidgeotto got to shine. It's a pity that Misty's Staryu put up a better fight than her Starmie though. Still a good episode nonetheless.
    Misty's Staryu has always been better than her Starmie. It's a shame that she had both at the same time, as I would have liked to have seen Misty make the progression of having one and then eventually deciding to evolve it into the other.

    Seriously though, this was one of my faviourite episodes from the original series, despite the (highly desputed) pity badge. More than anything, it was a worthwhile episode simply because of Misty's development as a character within it.
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  23. #148
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    my favorite pokemon episode

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinter1988 View Post
    Misty's Staryu has always been better than her Starmie. It's a shame that she had both at the same time, as I would have liked to have seen Misty make the progression of having one and then eventually deciding to evolve it into the other.
    To be honest, the writers only made Starmie battle four times (five if you include vs Bulbasaur) while Staryu battles more. I do agree with what you said, but it's unknown if she had caught Starmie as a Staryu or if they were gym/gift Pokemon.

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    I really enjoyed this episode, the introduction of Misty's sisters and their interactions were interesting.
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