Originally Posted by 7threst
Pikachu itself chose not to battle and Ash himself accepted that. As a result, Misty cheated. This troll.
And because she cheated, that influenced the whole match. This isn't only about the match itself, it's also about what happened around it. The argument that Ash's didn't deserved to win this badge already loses weight because of Misty taking advantage of Pikachu decision. A gym leader would have stimulated Pikachu to fight. No, she didn't want to get obliterated by Pikachu and therefore cheered Pikachu's decision not to battle.
Except she didn't cheat. Pikachu choosing not to battle and Ash not forcing it to doesn't equate to Misty cheating in any way. Misty didn't say anything about it until Ash had already accepted that Pikachu wasn't going to battle. A Gym Leader has no say in what Pokemon the trainer chooses. In fact, that would be more manipulating than what happened in the actual battle.
2. I think you need to do some bit of research. Nowhere in the anime until that point was it stipulated that the only official way of obtaining a badge would be by winning. It was only presumed to be that way by the audience, that get their presumptions and interpretations from playing the games and think it's applicable to the anime. That is like comparing a peer with a apple. Just because they are in the same category, doesn't mean they are comparable with each other. That's erroneous fallacy.
It seems you are the one that needs to do research. "Pity badge" is a fan term so whether or not it's acknowledged in the show is meaningless as whether or not it is a pity badge. In fact, a "pity badge" is simply defined as him, or anyone, not winning a badge through battle. Also, fans acknowledge that a trainer can get a badge from doing a good deed but that doesn't stop it from being a pity badge. In fact, that's how the term came to be in the first place.
I agree that the above mentioned example did occasionally happened during the anime, but still, that remains a assumption that Misty could have won solely based on the fact that the exact circumstances occasionally took place and the underdog surprisingly won.
And you're working under the assumption that Misty would've stuck to a similar strategy that she had been using before. Assumptions work both ways here. You're working under the assumption that Ash would've won the battle.
Gryphon came out with facts. Facts about the exact situation the battle was in before Team Rocket arrived. Facts, universally, are accepted to carry more value and weight against assumptions.
"Facts" that are meaningless is the context of the battle. Taking the word of Daisy, a person who was deemed as a poor trainer and Gym Leader back then and even now, over the results of a battle and battle strategies is questionable at best.
Let's look at the "facts": "Pikachu was the one that, like, saved us all, and if Ash had used Pikachu from the start, there was no way that your water Pokemon could have won." Probably true but that doesn't matter since the Pokemon in the battle decide the outcome. This is a would've, could've, should've.
"Also consider that Pikachu was *ordered* by Ash to blow away TR, and it was ultimately Ash himself that stopped their machine." This is true but has nothing to do with the battle. This, in fact, begins to fall in line with the definition for pity badge since the initial reason Daisy gave for giving him the badge was saving the Pokemon.
"On top of *that*, Ash had gotten ahead of Misty 1-0 in their match." Not true. Misty herself stated that it was getting low on energy and nothing else. She didn't say it couldn't battle. In fact, no one stated that it was unable to battle and Ash himself was preparing for another attack before Team Rocket interrupted.
"Since Misty's strongest pokemon---Starmie---had just been Whirlwinded out of commission by a still-raring-to-go Pidgeotto," Again. Starmie was still able to battle. Also, this person assumes that Starmie is Misty's strongest Pokemon even though there is no evidence to support that theory. The anime even goes out of its way to show us that evolved Pokemon are not always stronger.
"The only pity in that scene was for Misty, not for Ash...Daisy knew that Ash would have prevealed, despite her younger sister's sabotage(Misty certainly didn't pass up on the opportunity to use her bond with Ash's Pikachu against Ash himself)." Out of context evidence. Misty didn't do anything. Pikachu initially refused to battle and Ash pointed this out. He then began to choose another Pokemon when he had accepted that Pikachu wasn't going to battle and then Misty said something about it. She never stated anything during it because it isn't her decision as to what Pokemon Ash was going to use. Ash was the one at fault for not raising his Pikachu well enough if anything. Again, using Daisy as evidence is laughable. She isn't reliable at all when it comes to battling from what we were shown. Also, Misty can't choose what Pokemon Ash chose during the battle. Was she happy that she didn't have to face Pikachu? Yeah but there was nothing she could do about it even if she wanted to face Pikachu.
Difference between Pikachu and Brandon:
-Brandon CHOOSE not to use one of Regi's
-Pikachu REFUSED to battle because of Misty and her small (un)intentional manipulative tactics.
Stop. Ash also chose not to use Pikachu. All things considered, Ash could've simply ordered Pikachu into battle. He just decided to not use it in the battle without further pressing the issue. Again, Misty did nothing. If anything, blame Ash for being a bad trainer back then.
Don't overgeneralize stuff that quick please.
Hard to overgeneralize when you're telling me that Misty cheated because she manipulated Pikachu into not battling. Or when you don't know the definition of a pity badge.
My hypothetical examples are at least based on the solid facts Gryphon has presented in his take on the Misty fans. Your hypothetical example is based on none facts other than "Yeah, well it happened that sometimes there were these comebacks, so it could have happened with Misty.
I just poked holes into those "facts." Your "facts" rely on the words of trainers that were below Misty's battling skills even back in episode seven. Trainers who had no business being Gym Leaders and almost got the gym closed in a future episode. Their track record alone shows them to be unreliable sources of anything battling related. The fact that you believe that Daisy has any type of reliability in battling strategies is amusing at best.
Read that could part again. Could in a hypothetical example is tantamount to speculation. \
Works both ways.
To answer this last comment of yours, I will refrain from calling it deplorable. But seeing as you can't be convinced - even when the facts are obviously and thoroughly explained to you - then let's play it your way. So, the match ended after Team Rocket was blasted/sucked away in the water. Seeing as both parties and the third party (The three sisters) unanimously agreed after some arguing that the match was over, Ash was presented the second badge.
Learn the definition of pity badge.
Now, statistically, let's see the results of the Match.
Butterfree: Called out against Staryu before being worn-out and being recalled, but but still able to continue fighting if called out to battle again.
Pidgeotto: Called out and defeated Misty's Starmie
Staryu: Called out against Butterfree. Resulted in stalemate before Butterfree first was recalled and afterwards Staryu
Starmie: Called out against Pidgeotto but got defeated with ease.
Ash: 2 Pokemon still battle-ready
Misty: 1 eliminated and one still battle-ready.
Ash therefore - according to the statistics - deserved the second badge in accordance to the unanimous decision made by all the parties at the end of the episode that the match was officially over.
Starmie wasn't beaten. Misty even said "Oh no, Starmie is low on energy." Not beaten. Also, Ash was told he deserved the badge for saving the Pokemon. Daisy just added that he would've won if he had used Pikachu but that it irrelevant since Pikachu wasn't in the battle. Ash even sated that he guessed that he wasn't going to get the badge. What does it tell you if the trainer himself didn't believe he was going to get the badge?
Did you just use statistics in a show that didn't even follow all of the rules of its source material? The show that has shown to go against all logic in multiple battles and on multiple occasions? Again statistics don't mean anything in actual practice. If we take something like sporting events, they have statistics but both teams are still forced to play the game because statistics mean jack in actual practice because of different factors during the event.