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Thread: *Spoilers and Read the First Post* Controversial Opinions II

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    Default *Spoilers and Read the First Post* Controversial Opinions II

    Okay, let's try to be more civil this time. The last page alone of the old thread was a nightmare.

    Rules:
    1. Anything can be controversial: Let's face it, getting a 100% approval or disapproval for any given moment or character will never happen. Anything can be controversial.
    2. The episode or movie must have already been released: Previews and trailers are great and all, but that means it still hasn't aired yet.
    3. No speculation: Why have a section dedicated to this.
    4. No shipping: Shipping wars belong elsewhere. Enough is enough.
    5. Stances are explained: Unexplained stances are spam, not discussions.
    6. Civil Discussion: This is not for your rants and rages; this is for critiquing. As such, personal attacks will not be used.
    7. All SPPf rules apply: I think this goes without saying.
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    I think regional villain team arcs could be better if Team Rocket wasn't involved at all. It gives them more focus and screen time that would otherwise be eaten up by Team Rocket and their stuff.

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    This should be interesting....

    Anyway I dislike how the Trial captains are separated from the Aether Foundation plot. It just seems unnecessary and at this point making them more irrelevant.
    "It's weird people refuse to watch BW yet hate Iris for the sole purpose that she calls Ash a kid. Her catchphrase is supposed to be ironic, she's a kid herself.

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    Ash being a dork with no dignity and forever doomed to acquire a goal he's doomed to always lose at and have all his actual accomplishments ignored or forgotten doesn't really bug me, if anything it makes him incredibly sympathetic when done right. SM Ash outright makes him a woobie in this regard, especially since he still comes through when things get serious for other people. It's actually endearing how he's a wholesome selfless badass but still made to look like a fool, he's a total underdog (you can tell he's becoming an ace in Lillie's eyes).

    It's rare to have a hero that's always dealing with defeat and humiliation in some regard while still doing their role well, something that usually plays into a villain's sympathy level.

    Quote Originally Posted by AshxSatoshi View Post
    This should be interesting....

    Anyway I dislike how the Trial captains are separated from the Aether Foundation plot. It just seems unnecessary and at this point making them more irrelevant.
    I'll wait until the series plays through first and see if they get their own moment in the limelight, it was kind of expected this would be Lillie's big role. Them just deciding not to go save Nebby last episode did seem weird though, like they just accepted they were B fodder.
    Last edited by DatsRight; 18th November 2017 at 8:34 PM.

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    I'm extremely disappointed with there not having any trial captains, it's even more disappointing that Ash only needed to complete two trials so far yet earned the right to battle two Kahunas. It feels like there's absolutely no challenge in that aspect. I genuinely do not understand the handling of Z Rings and Z crystals as well, Kiawe made the use of Z Moves sound like something sacred yet the difference between Ash and Lana earning the right to use them is absolutely atrocious.
    Also why even give TRio a Z crystal? They will never be worth using it, they're villains, they do not care about the islands, allowing them to ever use it would be a disgrace within itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajas View Post
    I'm extremely disappointed with there not having any trial captains, it's even more disappointing that Ash only needed to complete two trials so far yet earned the right to battle two Kahunas. It feels like there's absolutely no challenge in that aspect. I genuinely do not understand the handling of Z Rings and Z crystals as well, Kiawe made the use of Z Moves sound like something sacred yet the difference between Ash and Lana earning the right to use them is absolutely atrocious.
    Also why even give TRio a Z crystal? They will never be worth using it, they're villains, they do not care about the islands, allowing them to ever use it would be a disgrace within itself.
    In the anime defense, trial captains barely served any purpose in the games. All I seen them as are people who gave you busy work to prolong the game. Yes some trials were fun but important to the overall plot? Eh. Also if memory serves me right, didn't Lana have to train hard to use Hydro Vortex?


    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    Ash being a dork with no dignity and forever doomed to acquire a goal he's doomed to always lose at and have all his actual accomplishments ignored or forgotten doesn't really bug me, if anything it makes him incredibly sympathetic when done right. SM Ash outright makes him a woobie in this regard, especially since he still comes through when things get serious for other people. It's actually endearing how he's a wholesome selfless badass but still made to look like a fool, he's a total underdog (you can tell he's becoming an ace in Lillie's eyes).

    It's rare to have a hero that's always dealing with defeat and humiliation in some regard while still doing their role well, something that usually plays into a villain's sympathy level.



    I'll wait until the series plays through first and see if they get their own moment in the limelight, it was kind of expected this would be Lillie's big role. Them just deciding not to go save Nebby last episode did seem weird though, like they just accepted they were B fodder.
    Agreed with the Ash thing and yeah I'll wait for the overall series to be over to fully place judgment but I just hope they at least go to Poni to track Lillie.
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    In contrary to above posts, I am glad that the Trial Captain students are in no way relevant in the Aether Foundation arc. They wouldn't have as much of an emotional impact as Ash and the vanilla twins have.

    Ash has been Cosmog's personal caretaker and was entrusted with it. Meanwhile Gladion and Lillie have direct ties with Lusamine.

    Outside of a few choice interactions of which there are barely any, the Trial Captains have no significant attachment to Cosmog or Aether. I would rather have their own personal stories with their own personal problems.

    (and yes, I would have rather had Lillie's fear be prolonged just a tad longer to show a significant setback, even if she did immediately decide to seek out her memories).

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    1. I like that Ash is neither actively nor completely taking Lillie's spotlight. As I said before, he fits the helping/support role very well and might I say, he probably works much better than sharing the entire spotlight with the main female protagonist.

    2. I also think Mallow, despite having very few focus episodes, help a bunch in subtle ways especially when it comes to Lillie. I like the screentime that she does get. Those few scenes open up her character. I see her more than just a nice girl. Nice means always friendly and we've seen her get pretty annoyed and mad on a few occasions. She also has a big part on why she loves helping people. She has a busy job accommodating people, a service worker. But she is also human which means that she has her own issues and wishes, not to be treated as an overworked slave.

    3. I love the way they're handling Lana's goal. It started off as a simple wish of exploring the ocean through an air filtered bubble and the writers can develop it into something more.

    4. I don't see much of a rivalry between Ash and Kiawe as we sort of saw in the beginning episodes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozocrone View Post
    In contrary to above posts, I am glad that the Trial Captain students are in no way relevant in the Aether Foundation arc. They wouldn't have as much of an emotional impact as Ash and the vanilla twins have.

    Ash has been Cosmog's personal caretaker and was entrusted with it. Meanwhile Gladion and Lillie have direct ties with Lusamine.

    Outside of a few choice interactions of which there are barely any, the Trial Captains have no significant attachment to Cosmog or Aether. I would rather have their own personal stories with their own personal problems.

    (and yes, I would have rather had Lillie's fear be prolonged just a tad longer to show a significant setback, even if she did immediately decide to seek out her memories).
    I agree with this. You can't have too many chefs, and so on. I think the other classmates will have their time in whatever arc is going to follow the current one, but for now Lillie and Gladion benefit from having the limelight pretty much exclusively on them. Involve everyone straight away and half the cast will just end up just being there with nothing to do because, well, they have no real business being there.

    I really agree with that last point. I would have loved to have seen a longer, deeper look into Lillie's fear. Setbacks lose a lot of their meaning when they're just solved the following the episode.

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    My only problem with SM so far is that while the show has more humor in it, sometimes, some of them appears too exaggerated and/or forced out. And Samson Oak's Pokemon puns aren't that funny, for me to say at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi no masara View Post
    My only problem with SM so far is that while the show has more humor in it, sometimes, some of them appears too exaggerated and/or forced out. And Samson Oak's Pokemon puns aren't that funny, for me to say at least.
    Well, Samson's puns are meant to be cringy even in-universe given how nobody laughs nor has ever reacted positively at them
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    Quote Originally Posted by DankOverlord View Post
    Well, Samson's puns are meant to be cringy even in-universe given how nobody laughs nor has ever reacted positively at them
    Well minus Olivia and even the class thought it was weird she was laughing at him.
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    Some of Samson Oak' s puns don't even make sense imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by satopi View Post
    1. I like that Ash is neither actively nor completely taking Lillie's spotlight. As I said before, he fits the helping/support role very well and might I say, he probably works much better than sharing the entire spotlight with the main female protagonist.

    2. I also think Mallow, despite having very few focus episodes, help a bunch in subtle ways especially when it comes to Lillie. I like the screentime that she does get. Those few scenes open up her character. I see her more than just a nice girl. Nice means always friendly and we've seen her get pretty annoyed and mad on a few occasions. She also has a big part on why she loves helping people. She has a busy job accommodating people, a service worker. But she is also human which means that she has her own issues and wishes, not to be treated as an overworked slave.

    3. I love the way they're handling Lana's goal. It started off as a simple wish of exploring the ocean through an air filtered bubble and the writers can develop it into something more.

    4. I don't see much of a rivalry between Ash and Kiawe as we sort of saw in the beginning episodes.
    Ash actually seems to be benefitting from the supporting role, since he seems to genuinely care about Lillie's situation here. One of my issues with Ash in the recent few series is that he started to feel kind of aloof and like he only passively cared about the companionship of other humans, even if he shown sympathy and humour in being around them when necessary. For Lillie however he seems more invested and went out of his way to make things work for her, if maybe also because he was sort of to blame for setting her back a fair bit. I loved his reaction when she hugged Silvally. He knew she'd pull through and do it.

    The only thing I think Ash unrightfully took from Lillie is bonding with Nebby, and even he got kinda cheated there.

    For Mallow and co, I don't think it's the problem that Mallow is a bad character, just that, despite the potential being visible with said moments, she's getting underplayed as a main character and falling into old diminishing formulas compared to the others who've shown their full star power a bit more. She could be a good character, and that's more frustrating in a sense (hell for all I moan about Serena, she falls into the same territory). At least let her resolve an episode more through her drives and niches instead of limiting her to the 'lucking out against Team Rocket' formula. Every other character's had a turn, even Team Rocket themselves.

    I think Lana will work if they find her a direction for her bubble goal, it would be a cool twist on the 'finding a purpose in life' formula. We all have things we enjoy doing but don't manage to put into a specific occupation until later on. She's probably my least favourite of the SM team, though less in the sense that I loathe her and more the others fascinate me more. I can't really knock her limelight otherwise.

    Kiawe has shifted a bit too much into comic relief as of recently, but I like his and his team's limelight, just, like Mallow, I'd like to see him get more focus, especially since his limelight episodes have been pretty good. Until then its hard to knock big Pokemon like Turtonator and Marowak getting to be part of the fun for once.

    I actually like Sophocles and his episodes (even ep06 was enjoyable to me), he just needs to intertwine with the cast more. I want to see his tech smarts come in handy more often instead of him just being in the background when he's not comic relief or the one in focus. Even Clemont at least had his on-the-fly inventions during dilemmas.

    Oh and I DON'T want Team Rocket gone. Their limelight is fun and far less unintrusive this series besides a handful of episodes. Their only remaining issue is (an admittedly glaring one) they don't really work when antagonists to the twerps right now, only when side characters with their own agenda. The latter IS more of a focus this series and nicely done at that, but we still have to have standard Pokemon-stealing schemes eventually, and when they do them, they have no real chemistry with the twerps, they don't even work to make them look good, since the twerps always beat them with either very basic boring attacks or through dumb luck/Bewear. You can tell they only fight them when the writers run out of inventive character-based dilemmas for them to solve (again a reason Mallow's episodes feel underwhelming since they've both been Team Rocket padded). They need to bring life back to this foliage or they'll remain an artefact to the show, underplayed or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoltTacklingPika View Post
    I really agree with that last point. I would have loved to have seen a longer, deeper look into Lillie's fear. Setbacks lose a lot of their meaning when they're just solved the following the episode.
    I will agree that SM's pacing is starting to show clear issues. The Nebby arc is absurdly fast paced, we barely got to know Cosmog or see him bond much with the others (we got less than ten episodes of baby Nebby bonding with Ash and Lillie but we got almost a whole season of Bonnie singing to her boring Squishy?), and Lillie's phobia was solved a bit too easily after many episodes of minimal development (even if the end result was heartwarming enough to almost forgive this).
    Last edited by DatsRight; 19th November 2017 at 11:07 PM.

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    In contrasts to the games where we have a mafia, scientists, eco-terrorists, a psychopath with a god-complex, the closest thing we get to religious fanatics in a Pokemon game, pirates with a sci-fi theme, evil Nihilism 101 scientists, failure punks, and more evil scientists

    We get a world domination organization with lots more evil scientists than it should, two evil scientists, a psychopath with a god complex, mind controlling evil scientists, more evil scientists who took Nihilism 101, punks, and more evil scientists.

    Seriously, say what you want about the game, but Team Rocket there felt like a mafia who wanted to exert economic control. Stealing rare pokemon made sense because the more rare the more value. Here, Team Rocket is trying to take over the world, but there are too many scientists like Dr. Zager to make me believe that they are some kind of Mafia and more like SPECTRE. Team Plasma has been so Colress-science heavy that it annoyed me to death and boredom. Lysandre's philanthropy being ignored in favor of his research and manipulation also annoyed me. Lusamine being an evil scientist in the games didn't annoy me as much because her totally obsessive, abusive mother traits took center stage. Then there is Faba ... motive please?

    I'm annoyed at the lack of variety with these villains in the anime. If they're evil scientists in the games, then let another trait take center stage, not their evil researching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    In contrasts to the games where we have a mafia, scientists, eco-terrorists, a psychopath with a god-complex, the closest thing we get to religious fanatics in a Pokemon game, pirates with a sci-fi theme, evil Nihilism 101 scientists, failure punks, and more evil scientists

    We get a world domination organization with lots more evil scientists than it should, two evil scientists, a psychopath with a god complex, mind controlling evil scientists, more evil scientists who took Nihilism 101, punks, and more evil scientists.

    Seriously, say what you want about the game, but Team Rocket there felt like a mafia who wanted to exert economic control. Stealing rare pokemon made sense because the more rare the more value. Here, Team Rocket is trying to take over the world, but there are too many scientists like Dr. Zager to make me believe that they are some kind of Mafia and more like SPECTRE. Team Plasma has been so Colress-science heavy that it annoyed me to death and boredom. Lysandre's philanthropy being ignored in favor of his research and manipulation also annoyed me. Lusamine being an evil scientist in the games didn't annoy me as much because her totally obsessive, abusive mother traits took center stage. Then there is Faba ... motive please?

    I'm annoyed at the lack of variety with these villains in the anime. If they're evil scientists in the games, then let another trait take center stage, not their evil researching.
    Because evil, easy to hate scientists or thieves that want to take over the world are simple to write. As said before, the anime isn't the best for chemistries between the heroes and villains, at least in terms of the main heroes. All the villain teams were diluted to their sinister science heavy scheming in the anime, making them more generic forces of nature that the twerps didn't really have to bounce off of (the nearest to TRYING for grey morality was Magma/Aqua, and that ended up a mess otherwise).

    The nearest to depthful villainy in the anime is the Team Rocket trio, and even then they're usually generically nasty and evil enough at face value that the twerps can just treat them like 'bad guys who steal Pokemon'. Even their manipulation is very bare bones 'Dress in bad costumes or pretend to turn good because the twerps are gullible as hell' stuff, while in the OS Team Rocket at least exploited the twerps' individual flaws every now and then.

    Even the villain battles are pretty boring and superficial compared to the official ones, usually just one side curb stomping the other with basic but flashy moves until the other faints or sends a bigger fish to do the same. There's no sense of wit or proactivity or even basic accomplishment to how most villains are defeated by the heroes (I thought the TF arc was just pretentious flash, there I said it). In fact SM's switch to more primary slice of life format almost leads me to believe that the writers are actually kind of sick of standard hero vs villain stuff.

    (It does look like Lusamine isn't quite off the table just yet though, so we'll see how SM progresses. Until then, I suppose Faba is at least more charismatic and pivotal to the twerps' emotional development than the usual fare.)
    Last edited by DatsRight; 19th November 2017 at 8:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    Because evil, easy to hate scientists or thieves that want to take over the world are simple to write. As said before, the anime isn't the best for chemistries between the heroes and villains, at least in terms of the main heroes. All the villain teams were diluted to their sinister science heavy scheming in the anime, making them more generic forces of nature that the twerps didn't really have to bounce off of (the nearest to TRYING for grey morality was Magma/Aqua, and that ended up a mess otherwise).

    The nearest to depthful villainy in the anime is the Team Rocket trio, and even then they're usually generically nasty and evil enough at face value that the twerps can just treat them like 'bad guys who steal Pokemon'. Even their manipulation is very bare bones 'Dress in bad costumes or pretend to turn good because the twerps are gullible as hell' stuff, while in the OS Team Rocket at least exploited the twerps' individual flaws every now and then.

    Even the villain battles are pretty boring and superficial compared to the official ones, usually just one side curb stomping the other with basic but flashy moves until the other faints or sends a bigger fish to do the same. There's no sense of wit or proactivity or even basic accomplishment to how most villains are defeated by the heroes (I thought the TF arc was just pretentious flash, there I said it). In fact SM's switch to more primary slice of life format almost leads me to believe that the writers are actually kind of sick of standard hero vs villain stuff.

    (It does look like Lusamine isn't quite off the table just yet though, so we'll see how SM progresses. Until then, I suppose Faba is at least more charismatic and pivotal to the twerps' emotional development than the usual fare.)
    Even if they decide to make Lusamine evil now, it still takes the magic out of her SM counterpart. While I appreciate the writers for spicing up the Aether plot, replacing Lusamine with Faba was just bad writing. USUM proved Lusamine is condescending
    ...toxins or not, so why make her a generic embarrassing mother for an even more generic scientist who's evil just for the sake of being evil? I could understand if we had clear motivations for Faba being evil but we got squat. The only thing that's keeping me interested is Lillie and Gladion.
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    I do like at the very least that Faba is getting more satisfying reactions and situations out of the heroes than most of the others, especially since he's tied a lot into Lillie and Gladion's background and emotional woes.

    Even with Ash, whose probably least obligated to be there, he feels like he's forcing out more emotional responses from him because he keeps outdoing him. I felt bad for Ash struggling to save Lillie even when Faba was demolishing HIM along with his team, or being unable to stop the effects the machine causing Nebby's evolution. You can tell from this that Ash cares deeply about the two beyond just being the hero, so much that second face-off he skips the battle formalities and tackles Faba himself! (At least it wasn't the age old formula of him targeting Pikachu, we already know how much Ash cares about Pikachu).

    He's still pretty much just an antagonistic force of nature interaction wise, but at least he succeeds in getting SOMETHING out of the heroes unlike most of the other villains.
    Last edited by DatsRight; 20th November 2017 at 2:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    Some of Samson Oak' s puns don't even make sense imo.
    Imma be honest, I probably understood two of them and laughed at none. I don't even think kids would laugh at them even if he makes faces to boot. Would much rather him be lighthearted and a bit eccentric, not mentally unstable.

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    It is amazing how "controversial opinions" here have nothing controversial about. They are the same criticisms as you in a commentary on Youtube, for example.

    I'll be controversial and say that the Aether arc is not rushed like everyone else says. Who says this is just comparing the anime to the GAMES (a novelty among the fandom, complain that the anime is different from the games).
    I wonder if this arc was at the end of the anime (as usual), what people would talk about. Or if the "wonderful" arc of team flare was in the 50 episodes, what would be the reaction. A die here: The arc of Aether has already surpassed, in number of episodes, most of the arches of the past villains.
    Last edited by Sushi; 20th November 2017 at 9:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozocrone View Post
    In contrary to above posts, I am glad that the Trial Captain students are in no way relevant in the Aether Foundation arc. They wouldn't have as much of an emotional impact as Ash and the vanilla twins have.

    Ash has been Cosmog's personal caretaker and was entrusted with it. Meanwhile Gladion and Lillie have direct ties with Lusamine.

    Outside of a few choice interactions of which there are barely any, the Trial Captains have no significant attachment to Cosmog or Aether. I would rather have their own personal stories with their own personal problems.
    I agree; I'm also glad the Trial Captain characters haven't (so far) been relevant to the Aether Foundation arc. This arc is about Lillie and Gladion and Ash—Lillie and Gladion because they are Lusamine's children and have a past with Nihilego, and Ash because he is Cosmog's caretaker. They have the greatest emotional investment in this arc, so they should be the focal characters of the arc.

    The Trial Captain characters don't have any direct ties to Lusamine or to the Aether Foundation, and they haven't really interacted with Cosmog outside of its debut episode. Their having major role in the Aether arc would feel forced, and that wouldn't be fair to the characters.

    I don't mind if they are involved in the operation to rescue Lusamine, because I see that as them getting involved to help their friends (Lillie and Ash); but I don't expect them to play more than supporting roles (perhaps dealing with the Pokémon who are under the Ultra Beasts' control).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SONW View Post
    It is amazing how "controversial opinions" here have nothing controversial about. They are the same criticisms as you in a commentary on Youtube, for example.

    I'll be controversial and say that the Aether arc is not rushed like everyone else says. Who says this is just comparing the anime to the GAMES (a novelty among the fandom, complain that the anime is different from the games).
    I wonder if this arc was at the end of the anime (as usual), what people would talk about. Or if the "wonderful" arc of team flare was in the 50 episodes, what would be the reaction. A die here: The arc of Aether has already surpassed, in number of episodes, most of the arches of the past villains.
    It'll depend on how it wraps up, but the Aether arc has been rushed, in as much that it's frequently jumped from problem to resolution in a very short space of time. My only criticism of it is that it hasn't lingered on anything long enough for the conflict to really develop and go places, and it could have benefited with a couple of extra episodes to do that.
    Last edited by Sushi; 20th November 2017 at 9:39 PM.

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    Here a controversial opinion the school in sun and moon is absolutely useless imo.

    It didn't serve any real purpose other then being a distraction and waste time on stuff that don't matter.
    Last edited by Remix2; 20th November 2017 at 5:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remix2 View Post
    Here a controversial opinion the school in sun and moon is absolutely useless imo.

    It didn't serve any real purpose other then being a distraction and waste time on stuff that don't matter.
    As much as I like SM's premise, I have to sort of agree. It works okay as a home base for all the characters to interact and flourish, but in terms of the school actually having much noteworthy utility, it's not developed at all. While Kukui's dynamic as a parental figure/mentor for the kids is a nice change in dynamic, it's ironically rarely through his professional teaching, only a couple lessons like the switch around episode felt very meaningful.

    So while many good things do come out of the school, rarely does the premise itself stand out.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoltTacklingPika View Post
    It'll depend on how it wraps up, but the Aether arc has been rushed, in as much that it's frequently jumped from problem to resolution in a very short space of time. My only criticism of it is that it hasn't lingered on anything long enough for the conflict to really develop and go places, and it could have benefited with a couple of extra episodes to do that.
    Same I will give credit that they have TRIED to stuff in as much substance and development as possible in this frantic amount of time, to the point it's actually been pretty entertaining throughout, but it still feels like something's lost in the abruptness, especially in terms of how long the kids have got to bond with Nebby (something that they likely can't do now with it's evolved forms). It could have done with maybe a handful of slower paced episodes in between. So it's not BAD, but it is hap hazardous. Compared to the laid backness of the first season, I'm actually left kind of exhausted so far. :P
    Last edited by DatsRight; 20th November 2017 at 5:44 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SONW View Post
    It is amazing how "controversial opinions" here have nothing controversial about. They are the same criticisms as you in a commentary on Youtube, for example.

    I see people here even talking about Lillie's development. I ask: Was it poorly developed compared to what other Pokemon character? what is the comparison parameter here? To say that her fear was not well worked does not make sense to me. Just because her fear was treated with "humor" in some episodes? I say I prefer this than she whining and crying in every episode where she felt afraid (I'd sure hate her if she was a whiner).
    Which is really weird. It's like they're not comprehending what SM is about. Every plot/episode starts out lighthearted and eventually goes into something deeper. Yes Lillie's fear was played for jokes but wasn't Amourshipping? And people still consider that a vaild ship. All plots within the anime have been played for jokes, it's a childrens show not everything needs to be serious and dark.
    "It's weird people refuse to watch BW yet hate Iris for the sole purpose that she calls Ash a kid. Her catchphrase is supposed to be ironic, she's a kid herself.

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