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Thread: Ash Vs the Elite 4

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    Default Ash Vs the Elite 4

    This isn't a question of whether or not Ash will ever officially compete against the elite four since that doesn't seem like it will happen until the last days of the show. I just want to know if there is any member of the elite four that you think Ash could currently beat in a 6 on 6 match. The only E4 I see him currently being able to beat would be Aaron.

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    Hm I think Aaron as well and maybe Bruno.

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    He could probably take Koga on as well.
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    I think he could take on glacia. He has a very strong fire team and pikachu that can ideally take on her team.

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    Ash can potentially beat each one of the Kalos Elite Four (who are possibly the strongest with Mega Evolved Aces with a full team of GPCISS(Greninja, Pikachu, Charizard, Infernape, Sceptile and Snorlax). This has been already discussed in the anime versus thread-
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    Let's be blunt. The answer is no. There's a reason that we've only ever seen one character defeat an Elite Four member on-screen (Alain against Malva), and that was merely a one-on-one battle. I highly doubt Alain would have been able to pull off a victory in a full six-on-six match, as any short-term advantages one might be able to gain in a one-on-one disappear when all six Pokémon are used. Elite Four are incredibly powerful trainers on a whole different level from what we normally see. Not to say Ash is a bad trainer (I'm actually an advocate for saying he's quite a good one), but there's no way he's anywhere near that level. There's a reason you have to win a Pokémon League in the show to face the Elite Four, and the reason is that you have to prove yourself to be on that level. Ash has yet to win a league, and even if you can win at a league, that is certainly no assurance that you can defeat a member of the Elite Four.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    Let's be blunt. The answer is no. There's a reason that we've only ever seen one character defeat an Elite Four member on-screen (Alain against Malva), and that was merely a one-on-one battle. I highly doubt Alain would have been able to pull off a victory in a full six-on-six match, as any short-term advantages one might be able to gain in a one-on-one disappear when all six Pokémon are used. Elite Four are incredibly powerful trainers on a whole different level from what we normally see. Not to say Ash is a bad trainer (I'm actually an advocate for saying he's quite a good one), but there's no way he's anywhere near that level. There's a reason you have to win a Pokémon League in the show to face the Elite Four, and the reason is that you have to prove yourself to be on that level. Ash has yet to win a league, and even if you can win at a league, that is certainly no assurance that you can defeat a member of the Elite Four.
    Ash has gone toe to toe with a Champion's Pokemon in a one on one, and dominated it big time(while E4 members get crushed by Champions, like Cynthia vs Lucian, Diantha vs Wikstrom) so defeating an E4 member one on one is very much possible for him. In a full battle against the E4, with a full team of GPCISS, he can potentially win.
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    Probably not,outside of Charizard and I guess Greninja none of Ash's other pokemon can hang with the likes of Flint,Bertha,Drake etc.





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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Ash has gone toe to toe with a Champion's Pokemon in a one on one, and dominated it big time(while E4 members get crushed by Champions, like Cynthia vs Lucian, Diantha vs Wikstrom) so defeating an E4 member one on one is very much possible for him. In a full battle against the E4, with a full team of GPCISS, he can potentially win.
    You and I must be remembering battles differently. When did Ash "dominate" and Elite Four? Obviously he lost every time he's faced an Elite Four, so I'm assuming by dominating you just meant did very well, but even that seems like a stretch. It was no contest every time he's faced one.

    And as I tried to explain in my last post, a one-on-one match is nothing compared to a six-on-six. Maybe Ash might be able to gain some sort of advantage over one of an Elite Four's Pokémon, but multiply that by six, and any short-term gain that Ash could achieve would quickly average out to a much worse performance. I would be willing to admit that Ash could have a chance at defeating a single Elite Four Pokémon (a slim one, but not non-existent), but there's no way he could deal with an entire team.

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    He potentially can with GPICSS if we consider this Ash to be an idealized state (Willpower from vs Brandon 3 + Strategic Complexity and Switching from DP + Experience, Tactical Ingenuity, Composure and Confidence from XY). It would still be a huge struggle (this is assuming that all E4 have a(n) Mega/Z-move/equivalent mechanic by this point). Ash would still decisively loose to a champion though.
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    If Ash was to use GPICSS I can see him powering through some of the easier E4 members. Against trainers like Flint or Drake he might be able to take a couple Pokemon out but he won't come close to winning. He lacks the strategy and mindset to out-duel the E4 and will eventually slip up and get taken advantage of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    You and I must be remembering battles differently. When did Ash "dominate" and Elite Four? Obviously he lost every time he's faced an Elite Four, so I'm assuming by dominating you just meant did very well, but even that seems like a stretch. It was no contest every time he's faced one.

    And as I tried to explain in my last post, a one-on-one match is nothing compared to a six-on-six. Maybe Ash might be able to gain some sort of advantage over one of an Elite Four's Pokémon, but multiply that by six, and any short-term gain that Ash could achieve would quickly average out to a much worse performance. I would be willing to admit that Ash could have a chance at defeating a single Elite Four Pokémon (a slim one, but not non-existent), but there's no way he could deal with an entire team.
    Ash has dominated a Champion's Pokemon on screen, by a remarkable margin:

    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 2nd May 2017 at 7:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    If Ash was to use GPICSS I can see him powering through some of the easier E4 members. Against trainers like Flint or Drake he might be able to take a couple Pokemon out but he won't come close to winning. He lacks the strategy and mindset to out-duel the E4 and will eventually slip up and get taken advantage of.
    Power is 1 thing (though I still disagree with you even on this factor when it come to GPICSS since Peakachu and Charizard could go toe to toe with Flint's Infernape/Caitlyn's Gothetelle/Drake's base Salamence etc.. and Ash-Greninja could outright beat them) but you're decisively wrong when it comes to having a strategic/tactical mindset especially when considering the union of Ash's end of DP and end of XY skill. Honestly at his peak Ash has already attained skill rivaling that of the regional champions (there's really nothing for his peak self to improve on barring maybe utilizing entry hazzards) and would just need to further train up his Pokémon in order to match them in battle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Ash has dominated a Champion's Pokemon on screen, by a remarkable margin:

    And Gardevoir wasn't going all out. Not denying that what Greninja did was impressive, but it's far from "dominating" an E4 level Pokemon that is going all out. In fact, none of the E4's that Ash was facing was trying, and rightfully so since they know creaming a poor kid will do nothing to give Ash a learning experience. Have to at least give Ash some breathing room to work with to see what he can do in certain situations.

    And like other's mentioned, Ash will struggle much more in a 6-on-6. He might get a cheesy win with Charizard/Pikachu to open up due to his unpredictability, but once he gets downloaded he is toast. GPICSS might be able to brute force their way through the weaker E4 members who has the download on Ash simply because they have to nothing to match the firepower, but the higher level E4 members can certainly match the power of the GPICSS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Power is 1 thing (though I still disagree with you even on this factor when it come to GPICSS since Peakachu and Charizard could go toe to toe with Flint's Infernape/Caitlyn's Gothetelle/Drake's base Salamence etc.. and Ash-Greninja could outright beat them) but you're decisively wrong when it comes to having a strategic/tactical mindset especially when considering the union of Ash's end of DP and end of XY skill. Honestly at his peak Ash has already attained skill rivaling that of the regional champions (there's really nothing for his peak self to improve on barring maybe utilizing entry hazzards) and would just need to further train up his Pokémon in order to match them in battle.
    Ash certainly is very skillful if we take the peak of DP/XY, but the E4 is just another beast. Ash probably is unprepared to seriously contend the E4's tricks and counter-play. Of course this is assuming the E4 members is a lot more intelligent and tactically smart than trainers like Paul, but I think it's a fair assumption considering they are in a different league from all other trainers. I can see Ash adjusting accordingly and giving the top level E4 members a run for it's money if Ash were to challenge them multiple times, since his ability to adapt and utilize his past experience to his advantage is unrivaled, but I can't see him doing very well in his first try. He has the firepower, he just needs to be smart about using them correctly.
    Last edited by DrLazyEyes; 2nd May 2017 at 7:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    And Gardevoir wasn't going all out. Not denying that what Greninja did was impressive, but it's far from "dominating" an E4 level Pokemon that is going all out. In fact, none of the E4's that Ash was facing was trying, and rightfully so since they know creaming a poor kid will do nothing to give Ash a learning experience. Have to at least give Ash some breathing room to work with to see what he can do in certain situations.

    And like other's mentioned, Ash will struggle much more in a 6-on-6. He might get a cheesy win with Charizard/Pikachu to open up due to his unpredictability, but once he gets downloaded he is toast. GPICSS might be able to brute force their way through the weaker E4 members who has the download on Ash simply because they have to nothing to match the firepower, but the higher level E4 members can certainly match the power of the GPICSS.
    Gardevoir was forced to Mega Evolve, and that says it all. Otherwise Diantha wouldn't have bothered to Mega Evolve Gardevoir after fighting with Gardevoir for quite some time. How did Flint's Infernape so against a Base Champion Ace, Cynthia's Garchomp? Surely much worse?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    And Gardevoir wasn't going all out. Not denying that what Greninja did was impressive, but it's far from "dominating" an E4 level Pokemon that is going all out. In fact, none of the E4's that Ash was facing was trying, and rightfully so since they know creaming a poor kid will do nothing to give Ash a learning experience. Have to at least give Ash some breathing room to work with to see what he can do in certain situations.

    And like other's mentioned, Ash will struggle much more in a 6-on-6. He might get a cheesy win with Charizard/Pikachu to open up due to his unpredictability, but once he gets downloaded he is toast. GPICSS might be able to brute force their way through the weaker E4 members who has the download on Ash simply because they have to nothing to match the firepower, but the higher level E4 members can certainly match the power of the GPICSS.
    That still puts Mastered A-G at base Champion Ace lvl at a minimum so yeah he can decisively beat any non-Mega E4 Pokémon.

    Also there really isn't that significant a difference between the lower and upper E4 so if you can accept that Ash has the potential to beat the lower E4s then at the very least you need to accept that Ash has the potential to at least push the upper E4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Gardevoir was forced to Mega Evolve, and that says it all. Otherwise Diantha wouldn't have bothered to Mega Evolve Gardevoir after fighting with Gardevoir for quite some time. How did Flint's Infernape so against a Base Champion Ace, Cynthia's Garchomp? Surely much worse?
    And Gardevoir was still holding back in it's power, so it still wasn't a domination and Greninja showed nothing that indicates it can dominate an E4 member, though it might be a better Pokemon overall than the average E4 Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    That still puts Mastered A-G at base Champion Ace lvl at a minimum so yeah he can decisively beat any non-Mega E4 Pokémon.

    Also there really isn't that significant a difference between the lower and upper E4 so if you can accept that Ash has the potential to beat the lower E4s then at the very least you need to accept that Ash has the potential to at least push the upper E4.
    Not sure about decisively, but I can see AG being above most E4 Pokemon in a 1v1, which is why in terms of power Ash has it all. I do think Ash can push the upper E4 members to the limit if his improvisation is on point and can definitely win against the lower E4 members. It all depends on how serious the E4's are when they were onscreen (I don't think an of them were that serious) and how much better they actually are when they are trying to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    And Gardevoir was still holding back in it's power, so it still wasn't a domination and Greninja showed nothing that indicates it can dominate an E4 member, though it might be a better Pokemon overall than the average E4 Pokemon.
    It was holding back, but some clear indications in the episode shows that Diantha was feeling the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir. So one thing is clear that Ash-Greninja (in its Water-veil form) also posed a threat to a non-Mega Evolved Champion Ace. So, in full form, I think it can decisively take out an E4 ace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    And Gardevoir was still holding back in it's power, so it still wasn't a domination and Greninja showed nothing that indicates it can dominate an E4 member, though it might be a better Pokemon overall than the average E4 Pokemon.



    Not sure about decisively, but I can see AG being above most E4 Pokemon in a 1v1, which is why in terms of power Ash has it all. I do think Ash can push the upper E4 members to the limit if his improvisation is on point and can definitely win against the lower E4 members. It all depends on how serious the E4's are when they were onscreen (I don't think an of them were that serious) and how much better they actually are when they are trying to win.
    The question then becomes "what is the maximum possible difference that can exist between any 2 base E4 Aces?" Similar question for Champion Aces. I do agree that whether Ash could actually beat an E4 in a 6 vs 6 is highly debatable but he certainly wouldn't get wrecked as a lot of people seem to believe especially if we use an idealized version of him with his best team. Well yeah I agree that the E4 were never serious against Ash in the past (which frankly makes A-G's feat all the more impressive) though I do think they were when facing Alain.

    EDIT: I don't think that the E4 are necessarily much more strategically oriented than Paul considering that most of the time there Pokémon just win on sheer power. Even a battle like Caitlyn vs Cynthia didn't show any paticularly impressive tactics and I frankly can't imagine how any battle could be significantly more superior from a strategy/tactics standpoint than Ash vs Paul SL. I do agree that Ash is going to need to use all of his experience in conjunction with multiple bursts of innovation in order to have a good shot of winning.
    Last edited by Genaller; 2nd May 2017 at 8:20 AM.
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    All of them and none of them?
    I cannot say, because the show has lost so much sense in predicting damage in Pokemon battles
    that it would be easier to look at it from the writers perspective, then from Ash's Pokemon collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLazyEyes View Post
    If Ash was to use GPICSS I can see him powering through some of the easier E4 members. Against trainers like Flint or Drake he might be able to take a couple Pokemon out but he won't come close to winning. He lacks the strategy and mindset to out-duel the E4 and will eventually slip up and get taken advantage of.
    Where does this concept of some Elite four being weaker than others even come from? They've all proven them selves to be some of the most powerful trainers in the world. If there's a difference in their skill level, it's marginal at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Ash has dominated a Champion's Pokemon on screen, by a remarkable margin:

    I just rewatched the battle to make sure. It got one good hit in, the rest of that battle the two were evenly matched, and that's not even accounting for the fact that Diantha was obviously holding back, as she was trying to test Ash and Greninja. I don't think that qualifies as "dominating."

    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    It was holding back, but some clear indications in the episode shows that Diantha was feeling the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir. So one thing is clear that Ash-Greninja (in its Water-veil form) also posed a threat to a non-Mega Evolved Champion Ace. So, in full form, I think it can decisively take out an E4 ace.
    Here's the thing, as much of a power boost as Mega Evolution gives, each Pokémon still has its own unique power level. I think it's unfair to say that just because Ash-Greninja could go toe-to-toe with non-Mega Gardevoir that it could do the same with, let's say, Cynthia's Garchomp or Lance's Dragonite. It seems more than likely that if Diantha were to use her Mega Gardevoir against Cynthia's non-Mega Garchomp, the two would probably be extremely evenly matched. Mega Evolution alone does is not an indicator of strength. Therefore it is entirely possible that Diantha's non-Mega Gardevoir is much weaker than any other Champion, or even Elite Four Pokémon.


    This is such a role-reversal. Normally I'm the one trying to assert how powerful of a trainer Ash is. How strange.

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    Check it out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bguy7 View Post
    Where does this concept of some Elite four being weaker than others even come from? They've all proven them selves to be some of the most powerful trainers in the world. If there's a difference in their skill level, it's marginal at best.
    No that's wrong. Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted by Cynthia's Garchomp while Flint's Infernape did better. There is a difference between different E4 members.



    I just rewatched the battle to make sure. It got one good hit in, the rest of that battle the two were evenly matched, and that's not even accounting for the fact that Diantha was obviously holding back, as she was trying to test Ash and Greninja. I don't think that qualifies as "dominating."
    Going toe to toe for a long time says it all. No E4 ace has managed to do it against a Champion's Pokemon so far. Lucian's Bronzong got one-shotted, Flint's Infernape put up a half-decent fight before losing, Wikstrom's Mega Scizor got destroyed by Diantha's Mega Gardevoir. Ash-Greninja did way better. And the last Water Shuriken clearly overpowered the Shadow Ball, so that obviously classifies as dominating. Diantha was holding back, but the fact that she felt the pressure and Mega Evolved Gardevoir against Ash-Greninja's Water-veil form shows that in full-form, Ash-Greninja can obviously take on at least non-Mega Evolved Gardevoir.



    Here's the thing, as much of a power boost as Mega Evolution gives, each Pokémon still has its own unique power level. I think it's unfair to say that just because Ash-Greninja could go toe-to-toe with non-Mega Gardevoir that it could do the same with, let's say, Cynthia's Garchomp or Lance's Dragonite. It seems more than likely that if Diantha were to use her Mega Gardevoir against Cynthia's non-Mega Garchomp, the two would probably be extremely evenly matched. Mega Evolution alone does is not an indicator of strength. Therefore it is entirely possible that Diantha's non-Mega Gardevoir is much weaker than any other Champion, or even Elite Four Pokémon.
    Diantha is a Champion, how can her ace without Mega Evolution be weaker than E4 members? That's nonsense. We can't assume that Champions like Cynthia and Lance are so much superior than Steven and Diantha that their aces would be stronger than Mega Evolved Champion Aces of Steven and Diantha. They are all regional Champions, their can't be that much of a disparity. And before you say Diantha isn't a strong Champion, let me show you-


    One-shotted Wikstrom' Mega Scizor with a Gamma-ray Moonblast.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 3rd May 2017 at 12:17 PM.
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    In a full battle against an Elite Four member Ash stands no chance. I don't think this is even a question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthlord7 View Post
    In a full battle against an Elite Four member Ash stands no chance. I don't think this is even a question.
    Really? Even with GPCISS? You have to remember that E4 non-aces are not as powerful as E4 aces.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Really? Even with GPCISS? You have to remember that E4 non-aces are not as powerful as E4 aces.
    Neither GPCISS Pokemon have equal power between them.

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