Come What May (327)

[Vern]

Are you joking? Beautifly Vs. Medicham is one of the best contest battles in the series.

Yeah, it looked nice.

This was the episode that made contests popular in the first time.

Irrelevant to my opinion on the matter.

And considering Dawn beats a character who was a rival to her mother for like 20 years,

That was a bad victory too. Don't try to justify one character's dumb victory with another's. They're both equally dumb.

I don't see why you're bringing this up.

Because this is a review thread and I posted my opinion on the episode.

If you think this episode wasn't good you might as well stop watching the show entirely because it was one of the best.

I stopped watching after Sinnoh.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, it looked nice.

The techniques in this contest battle are the first thing that truly made contests stand out. May's first Contest was just her getting creamed by Drew, but this one was the first with actually strategy and techniques involved. Beautifly using its attacks to immobilize Medicham's arms to stop its attacks was great, as were the rest of the battling in this episode.

That was a bad victory too. Don't try to justify one character's dumb victory with another's. They're both equally dumb.

Neither is a bad victory. Characters win against older, mature characters all the time. By this logic Ash shouldn't be able to beat any Gym leader since most are 25-30 year olds who have been battling their entire lives. Now May does have some cheap victories later on, but I remember back in 2004 this was where Contests really took off in popularity in the series.

I stopped watching after Sinnoh.

Well OK, but that's all.

[Vern]

The techniques in this contest battle are the first thing that truly made contests stand out. May's first Contest was just her getting creamed by Drew, but this one was the first with actually strategy and techniques involved. Beautifly using its attacks to immobilize Medicham's arms to stop its attacks was great, as were the rest of the battling in this episode.

As I've already stated: it looked nice.

Neither is a bad victory. Characters win against older, mature characters all the time. By this logic Ash shouldn't be able to beat any Gym leader since most are 25-30 year olds who have been battling their entire lives.

I simply assume that the Gym Leaders limit the strength of the Pokemon they use depending on the trainer. It ruins my suspension of belief otherwise. This scenario doesn't deliver me any kind of way to do so. We have just seen a clearly superior Pokemon trainer in Drew lose in a rather one-sided battle against Grace. It has been made obvious from the episodes leading up to this one that Drew is superior to May in nearly every way in terms of Pokemon battling and yet she is able to win rather handily here? Grace didn't show any kind of strategy use like the kind that she displayed when battling Drew and many of the moves May used here were never hinted at being able to be used before (Tackle with a Gust attack protecting it, Tackle with a Gust attack while using Silver Wind at the same time, etc). It's as though she suddenly got better since her last battle. That's poor writing especially since we know that May hasn't had much battling experience.

Now May does have some cheap victories later on, but I remember back in 2004 this was where Contests really took off in popularity in the series.

Well, that was 2004 and I probably enjoyed this episode back then too. Re-watching it now, it's easy to spot all of the story telling flaws and I'm reviewing these episodes as I re-watch them.

[CyberCubed]

I simply assume that the Gym Leaders limit the strength of the Pokemon they use depending on the trainer. It ruins my suspension of belief otherwise. This scenario doesn't deliver me any kind of way to do so. We have just seen a clearly superior Pokemon trainer in Drew lose in a rather one-sided battle against Grace. It has been made obvious from the episodes leading up to this one that Drew is superior to May in nearly every way in terms of Pokemon battling and yet she is able to win rather handily here? Grace didn't show any kind of strategy use like the kind that she displayed when battling Drew and many of the moves May used here were never hinted at being able to be used before (Tackle with a Gust attack protecting it, Tackle with a Gust attack while using Silver Wind at the same time, etc). It's as though she suddenly got better since her last battle. That's poor writing especially since we know that May hasn't had much battling experience.

No, it was to show that Drew wasn't some invincible or unbeatable character. Its a mistake they made with Zoey, making her way too perfect and almost unbeatable in rare cases.

As for May, Beautifly had been used in most of her episodes at this point, like when she went training it in that Wailord filler and so forth. Considering this is what...nearly the 50th episode of AG or something, I'd say it was about time. Remember Dawn won her first ribbon only 26 episodes into DP, it took May over 50.

Well, that was 2004 and I probably enjoyed this episode back then too. Re-watching it now, it's easy to spot all of the story telling flaws and I'm reviewing these episodes as I re-watch them.

You can say that for any episode then. Obviously rewatching episodes as an adult you're going to notice things you didn't care about before when you were a kid.

[Vern]

No, it was to show that Drew wasn't some invincible or unbeatable character.

We already knew he was beatable when he was eliminated handily by Robert in the previous Pokemon Contest. There was no reason for it to happen twice just to prove a point we already knew.

Its a mistake they made with Zoey, making her way too perfect and almost unbeatable in rare cases.

Yup. We've already established him as beatable in the first contest.

As for May, Beautifly had been used in most of her episodes at this point, like when she went training it in that Wailord filler and so forth. Considering this is what...nearly the 50th episode of AG or something, I'd say it was about time. Remember Dawn won her first ribbon only 26 episodes into DP, it took May over 50.

And even by the fiftieth episode, they still made no solid progress on her as a Pokemon trainer and never showed her improving her skills to the point where she could accomplish feats like she did in this contest.

You can say that for any episode then. Obviously rewatching episodes as an adult you're going to notice things you didn't care about before when you were a kid.

And I have said it for most episodes that I've re-watched.

[CyberCubed]

And even by the fiftieth episode, they still made no solid progress on her as a Pokemon trainer and never showed her improving her skills to the point where she could accomplish feats like she did in this contest.

We saw enough. We know DP had far more training episodes than any of the other sagas. In AG most training was implied off-screen.

[Vern]

We saw enough. We know DP had far more training episodes than any of the other sagas. In AG most training was implied off-screen.

If by enough you mean virtually nothing then sure. I certainly didn't see enough to believe that Beautifly could pull off those moves or that May had the ability to teach those moves to it. In reality, off-screen training is just another way of saying "we pulled this out of our *** because the plot demanded it" especially if there is no foreshadowing beforehand.

[CyberCubed]

If by enough you mean virtually nothing then sure. I certainly didn't see enough to believe that Beautifly could pull off those moves or that May had the ability to teach those moves to it. In reality, off-screen training is just another way of saying "we pulled this out of our *** because the plot demanded it" especially if there is no foreshadowing beforehand.

I see you're trying to be clever. Beautifly had plenty of preparation for this contest. If this had been Torchic beating Medicham I'd agree with you it would be ridiculous, but thank goodness the writers knew what they were doing.

[Vern]

I see you're trying to be clever.

There is no need to be clever when I'm pointing out poor writing.

Beautifly had plenty of preparation for this contest. If this had been Torchic beating Medicham I'd agree with you it would be ridiculous, but thank goodness the writers knew what they were doing.

You've already admitted beforehand that the training was off-screen. There's no point where May had displayed sufficient enough skill to teach those moves nor was there a point when Beautifly had shown enough training to pull off those moves without a problem. Show me otherwise.

[CyberCubed]

She was practicing Beautifly's Silver Wind in the Wailord filler and a few others. I don't see what the point of complaining about a lack of on-screen training is for when we usually never see it aside from when Ash is trying to teach his Pokemon a new move...like Treecko's Bullet seed or Snorunt's Ice beam.

All I know is I saw a good battle, and this is when I got interested in Contests for the first time. The first two Hoenn contests seemed more like introductions to the fandom, but this one was the turning point.

[Vern]

She was practicing Beautifly's Silver Wind in the Wailord filler and a few others.

Practicing Silver Wind does not mean that Beautfily could use Silver Wind, Tackle, and Gust in a coordinated manner all at the same time. If that were the case, moves like Ice Chandelier wouldn't have needed air time for training since Ice Beam had already been mastered long before the move was created and we already knew that Ice Beam could be used to create structures. That clearly isn't the case.

I don't see what the point of complaining about a lack of on-screen training is for when we usually never see it aside from when Ash is trying to teach his Pokemon a new move...like Treecko's Bullet seed or Snorunt's Ice beam.

Because I was reviewing an episode and you decided to defend terrible writing.

All I know is I saw a good battle, and this is when I got interested in Contests for the first time. The first two Hoenn contests seemed more like introductions to the fandom, but this one was the turning point.

The battle was nice. The outcome didn't make any sense.

[CyberCubed]

Practicing Silver Wind does not mean that Beautfily could use Silver Wind, Tackle, and Gust in a coordinated manner all at the same time. If that were the case, moves like Ice Chandelier wouldn't have needed air time for training since Ice Beam had already been mastered long before the move was created and we already knew that Ice Beam could be used to create structures. That clearly isn't the case.

Beautifly was using fairly basic attacks. I don't see why any beginning trainer couldn't have pulled that off. The strategy came in when Beautifly immobilized Medicham's arms and showed the first signs of May starting to become a better trainer.

Because I was reviewing an episode and you decided to defend terrible writing.

The battle was nice. The outcome didn't make any sense.

Perhaps you're watching the series with the wrong expectations in mind, I don't see how you can enjoy 90% of the shows battles then, since they all play out rather similarly.

[Vern]

Beautifly was using fairly basic attacks. I don't see why any beginning trainer couldn't have pulled that off.

In just the previous episode, Beautifly couldn't use Gust, Tackle, and String Shot at the same time. There was no training after that point and nothing to suggest that Beautifly could do three moves at the same time.

The strategy came in when Beautifly immobilized Medicham's arms and showed the first signs of May starting to become a better trainer.

Do you not realize how silly it sounds to say that May was a better strategist when she showed no strategical ability beforehand against an opponent who was shown to be a better strategist than Drew who is leagues beyond May at this point?

Perhaps you're watching the series with the wrong expectations in mind, I don't see how you can enjoy 90% of the shows battles then, since they all play out rather similarly.

I re-watch for the 10%.

[The Eleventh]

off-screen

...

Don't bother arguing with CyberCubed about May for your own health. We've all learnt how dear he holds her.

[Vern]

...

Don't bother arguing with CyberCubed about May for your own health. We've all learnt how dear he holds her.

I heard that PAD had a few people who could be difficult to deal with during discussions but I'm having no problem with him right now nor with anyone else in this section really. If anything, I'm educating him on a character he enjoys so he can have a more realistic liking to her.

[CyberCubed]

In just the previous episode, Beautifly couldn't use Gust, Tackle, and String Shot at the same time. There was no training after that point and nothing to suggest that Beautifly could do three moves at the same time.

So in other words you think every battle ability is shown before hand? Mind explaining why every other character has Pokemon that do the same thing?

Do you not realize how silly it sounds to say that May was a better strategist when she showed no strategical ability beforehand against an opponent who was shown to be a better strategist than Drew who is leagues beyond May at this point?

Why does this bother you? Characters win against more experienced characters all the time. Drew lost because his Roselia couldn't counter Medicham the way Beautifly could. Roselia can't fly, couldn't immobilize it, its pretty simple really.

Since when do you lose against someone once and then never beat them again anyway? Its too bad Grace never returned but its not like characters can't win against someone they lose to prior.

I heard that PAD had a few people who could be difficult to deal with during discussions but I'm having no problem with him right now nor with anyone else in this section really. If anything, I'm educating him on a character he enjoys so he can have a more realistic liking to her.

I am well aware of each characters flaws. Seems to me that Rebecca is making a mountain out of a molehill, as if this is the only time in the entire series such an event took place. I guess she must have been oblivious to the 100 other times its happened.

[Valoo.]

Cyber, your argument has rapidly back-pedalled from "it was a perfectly fine battle" to "it was bad but so were a lot of other battles".

Just throwing that out there.

[CyberCubed]

Cyber, your argument has rapidly back-pedalled from "it was a perfectly fine battle" to "it was bad but so were a lot of other battles".

Just throwing that out there.

I never said the battle was bad, I said most of these episodes never had much training prior to them. The Beautifly Vs. Medicham battle is easily one of the better contest battles in the series, and this was the start of when the Contests really started to take off in popularity in the show.

[Valoo.]

I never said the battle was bad, I said most of these episodes never had much training prior to them. The Beautifly Vs. Medicham battle is easily one of the better contest battles in the series, and this was the start of when the Contests really started to take off in popularity in the show.

Well you admitted to its flaws, same thing. Just because it's happend a lot doesn't mean that it's acceptable. You can't say that this battle was good on the basis that "so were some other battles". Beautifly couldn't even use the moves properly the episode before, it suddenly mastering them didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think Beautifly should have trained for at least a day in May before being ready to battle.

[Vern]

So in other words you think every battle ability is shown before hand? Mind explaining why every other character has Pokemon that do the same thing?

It should be foreshadowed at the minimum. In any case, they don't show it all of the time but when someone criticizes it as bad writing, which it is, then they (the writers and their fans) shouldn't complain when people do so. Every other character has Pokemon that do the same thing because of poor writing. Simple as that. This isn't a special case nor is it the first, the last, or the most egregious. It's just this case that happened in this episode and pointed out in this thread which discusses said episode.

Why does this bother you?

Because it's poor writing and you decided to pursue the issue to get my opinion on the matter.

Characters win against more experienced characters all the time. Drew lost because his Roselia couldn't counter Medicham the way Beautifly could. Roselia can't fly, couldn't immobilize it, its pretty simple really.

I don't have a problem with characters winning against people who are more experienced than they are. That's to be expected in shows like this. I have a problem with the fact that there was nothing showing that May had reached this level as a trainer and that she suddenly gained the skilled required to do so for no reason.

Since when do you lose against someone once and then never beat them again anyway? Its too bad Grace never returned but its not like characters can't win against someone they lose to prior.

This has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I am well aware of each characters flaws. Seems to me that Rebecca is making a mountain out of a molehill, as if this is the only time in the entire series such an event took place. I guess she must have been oblivious to the 100 other times its happened.

I've probably pointed some of these things out in other threads that are primarily focused on battling. I don't point it out in episodes that don't have battling as a focus to the degree that Pokemon Contests and gym battles do. This just happened to be one of those episodes.

[CyberCubed]

Well you admitted to its flaws, same thing. Just because it's happend a lot doesn't mean that it's acceptable. You can't say that this battle was good on the basis that "so were some other battles". Beautifly couldn't even use the moves properly the episode before, it suddenly mastering them didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think Beautifly should have trained for at least a day in May before being ready to battle.

There was the filler with the Wailord that Beautifly was training. Beautifly had also lost its first Contest and improved tremendously. I also don't see how training prior should effect an enjoyment of a good battle.

It should be foreshadowed at the minimum. In any case, they don't show it all of the time but when someone criticizes it as bad writing, which it is, then they (the writers and their fans) shouldn't complain when people do so. Every other character has Pokemon that do the same thing because of poor writing. Simple as that. This isn't a special case nor is it the first, the last, or the most egregious. It's just this case that happened in this episode and pointed out in this thread which discusses said episode.

Beautifly was May's most used Pokemon at this point. I thought this was established?

I don't have a problem with characters winning against people who are more experienced than they are. That's to be expected in shows like this. I have a problem with the fact that there was nothing showing that May had reached this level as a trainer and that she suddenly gained the skilled required to do so for no reason.

And yet your only counter to this is Grace beat Drew who May couldn't, completely ignoring the different pokemon used and the fact that May lost to Drew in her first contest about 25 episodes before this one. Grace isn't some super skilled trainer either, why are you acting like she's Solidad or something?

The fact that I've been on the forums since 2004 and you're the first person in over 8 years to bring this up about this episode says a lot.

[Vern]

Beautifly was May's most used Pokemon at this point. I thought this was established?

It being May's most used Pokemon has no bearing on her ability as a strategist, as a trainer, or the ability of the Pokemon itself as I've already shown.

And yet your only counter to this is Grace beat Drew who May couldn't, completely ignoring the different pokemon used and the fact that May lost to Drew in her first contest about 25 episodes before this one. Grace isn't some super skilled trainer either, why are you acting like she's Solidad or something?

She might as well be Solidad compared to May and Drew at this point in the series. Anyway, Drew is a better trainer than May in all aspects at this point in the series. It's fairly obvious. The fact that Grace was able to outclass Drew yet lose to May handily is telling of the writing of this episode and her handling. The different Pokemon used in the battles doesn't have anything to do with this. It's the skill of the trainer than I'm pointing out.

The fact that I've been on the forums since 2004 and you're the first person in over 8 years to bring this up about this episode says a lot.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

[Pokemaniac24]

Zoey wasn't really shown as unbeatable. She lost to Nando, Fantina (in that practice battle), and May.

[7threst]

This episode was really well-done. This episode is what made contests so popular back in the day and I thought all the three battles were interesting and cool to watch. It was perhaps quite out of the ordinary how powerful May has become, but she definitely deserved that ribbon.

[AquaMilotic]

I have mixed feelings about it... I liked the battle, but May winning was a bit overpowered, and therefore not very realistic. But it was mentioned in this thread that there was "off-screen training", and I think that's true. But still... But oh well, trainers beating more experienced opponents happens all the time in Pokemon, so yeah... 6/10.