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Thread: Evolving Strategy (600)

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    Yeah, except that Shinji's attitude and training were written in the same way competitive players used in real life. It was blatantly the writers' jab at Satoshi's naivety, which I had no problems with prior to this ******** dark and gritty ****. Take that attitude somewhere else, like the emo hipster club or something - not a ****ing anime for kids.
    You've met every competitive player and argued that their attitudes all equal Paul. Because that's one hell of a generalization right there. And God forbid the writers show that other trainers can be successful without the whole friendship is best factor that Ash has going for him and that not everyone in the world is buddy buddy with one another.. You're clearly missing the point the writers were trying to make with Paul and what effect it had on Ash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    Also, take a comparison check with Shigeru. THAT is how you properly write a capable rival, not this "abandoned redhead orphan" crap. Shigeru was ten times the man Shinji could ever be.
    Yeah Gary. Hell of a guy. Had only what 1 real battle with Ash before the League, just constantly taunted Ash in Kanto then barely interacted with him in Johto. Great guy, great rival. Couldn't even make Top 16 in Indigo then couldn't make Top 8 in Silver Conference. Then quit being a trainer after his loss to Ash. Really showed Paul right there.

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  2. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    Yeah Gary. Hell of a guy. Had only what 1 real battle with Ash before the League, just constantly taunted Ash in Kanto then barely interacted with him in Johto. Great guy, great rival. Couldn't even make Top 16 in Indigo then couldn't make Top 8 in Silver Conference. Then quit being a trainer after his loss to Ash. Really showed Paul right there.
    Please leave all your shitty dub references at the doorsteps, thank you, because I remember SHIGERU to be a few steps down the jerkass attitude in the original version. The dialogues were more mature, and Shigeru came off less like a jerk and more like a "You can do better, Satoshi" kind of guy, ESPECIALLY in Johto. This was far more evident in AG and D/P, where Shigeru comprehended Satoshi's true strength as a trainer and respected him, despite acknowledging his flaws at the same time.

    Now Shinji, on the other hand, obviously knows deep inside that Satoshi is a worthwhile rival, otherwise he wouldn't stalk him like the stalker he is (remember that Pikachu/Raichu episode where he tagged around to see if his instincts about Satoshi were correct?), yet he wouldn't outright admit it because he's a b**** of a man-child, and instead choose to go the "I'm much tougher than you" alpha male attitude. Yeah. Real swell guy. Unlike some other rival I know that put Satoshi on an equal footing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    You've met every competitive player and argued that their attitudes all equal Paul. Because that's one hell of a generalization right there. And God forbid the writers show that other trainers can be successful without the whole friendship is best factor that Ash has going for him and that not everyone in the world is buddy buddy with one another.. You're clearly missing the point the writers were trying to make with Paul and what effect it had on Ash.
    The point? The point was that friendship and magic don't work. This would have worked effectively by your logic IF we are not talking about the Pokemon anime. However, as evidenced by Best Wishes' existence, friendship and magic is the way to go down the line, so all this jerking around with the "realistic gritty" attitude was pretty much made pointless here, because the writers practically admit that friendship and magic DO work down the line in future seasons, so why the hell bother with some hipster realism anyway? Just stick with what works and leave the circle-jerking alone.

    Besides, it's not like Satoshi is going to suddenly turn bright through this kind of writing. All this does is feed the Satoshi-haters and fan the flames for trolls everywhere. Unless the writers decided to stick with the change in attitude for Satoshi and make him the copy and pasted version of Red (and pretty much every real life Pokemon players out there), this was a pointless action to take.
    Last edited by Lionel; 7th September 2014 at 3:44 AM.

  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    Please leave all your shitty dub references at the doorsteps, thank you, because I remember SHIGERU to be a few steps down the jerkass attitude in the original version. The dialogues were more mature, and Shigeru came off less like a jerk and more like a "You can do better, Satoshi" kind of guy, ESPECIALLY in Johto. This was far more evident in AG and D/P, where Shigeru comprehended Satoshi's true strength as a trainer and respected him, despite acknowledging his flaws at the same time.

    Now Shinji, on the other hand, obviously knows deep inside that Satoshi is a worthwhile rival, otherwise he wouldn't stalk him like the stalker he is (remember that Pikachu/Raichu episode where he tagged around to see if his instincts about Satoshi were correct?), yet he wouldn't outright admit it because he's a b**** of a man-child, and instead choose to go the "I'm much tougher than you" alpha male attitude. Yeah. Real swell guy. Unlike some other rival I know that put Satoshi on an equal footing.
    Last time I recalled most of the interactions between Ash and Paul were Ash insisting on following or hanging out with Paul while Paul just wanted to be left alone so because of 1 episode where Paul wanted to see Pikachu's power equates to "stalking" no it doesn't. And again point still stands that Gary and Ash abrely interacted in Johto and IDK why you're bringing up AG and DP events that happened post-rivalry especially considering that after their final battle Paula nd Ash came to respect each other as well. Not to mention the basis for Ash and Gary's rivalry is completely different from Ash and Paul's so IDK why you're even trying to compare the 2 rivalries in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    The point? The point was that friendship and magic don't work. This would have worked effectively by your logic IF we are not talking about the Pokemon anime. However, as evidenced by Best Wishes' existence, friendship and magic is the way to go down the line, so all this jerking around with the "realistic gritty" attitude was pretty much made pointless here, because the writers practically admit that friendship and magic DO work down the line in future seasons, so why the hell bother with some hipster realism anyway? Just stick with what works and leave the circle-jerking alone.
    This isn't MLP. Friendship only goes so far. If it was the end all then Ash would b a 5 time League winner and Pyramid King Brandon wouldn't have recognized Paul, despite his letting his emotions get to him, as a worthy trainer. And BW really? The series that many regard as Ash's worst is an example of how the power of friendship triumphs over all? Face it you don't have to coddle your Pokemon to be a good trainer. Hell Paul's Pokemon showed that they cared for him despite his harsh training methods. The guy has at least 4 regions worth of badges, so no the writers clearly intended to show he's a worthwhile trainer. The only one doing any real circle-jerking here is you getting all pissed off because Ash lost 6-2 when you yourself has admitted that you haven't even seen the episode.

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  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    So you're angry because Paul out thought and out strategized Ash? God forbid Ash suffer a big loss from time to time. Especially considering that a big part of his loss was due to his tactical naivety. So where exactly does Deus Ex Machina come in play? Because I don't like the outcome =/= Deus Ex Machina
    Also Pokémon Showdown and competitive players have no bearing on the anime and this loss was a pivotal part of DP.
    I don't think Ash's defeat can be blamed that heavily on the lack of a good strategy. Throughout the series, Ash has been shown to be overtly critical about Paul's method of training. From the abuse that Chimchar suffered to how much he neglected his Pokemon when they were injured, he was dead-set on proving to Paul that positive treatment is just as effective, and that's what caused Ash to falter. Throughout the battle, he was less concerned about winning the battle and more obsessed with showing Paul how much stronger his Pokemon have gotten or how fruitful his training has been. He was too emotionally invested in the fight and didn't keep himself level-headed enough to balance it out, so he made rookie mistakes like having Grotle fight against a Honchkrow in prime condition and using a lot of Special Attacks while Light Screen was still up. So while bad strategy did play a part, it probably wouldn't have been as prevalent if Ash kept himself in check.

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokeMaster366 View Post
    I don't think Ash's defeat can be blamed that heavily on the lack of a good strategy. Throughout the series, Ash has been shown to be overtly critical about Paul's method of training. From the abuse that Chimchar suffered to how much he neglected his Pokemon when they were injured, he was dead-set on proving to Paul that positive treatment is just as effective, and that's what caused Ash to falter. Throughout the battle, he was less concerned about winning the battle and more obsessed with showing Paul how much stronger his Pokemon have gotten or how fruitful his training has been. He was too emotionally invested in the fight and didn't keep himself level-headed enough to balance it out, so he made rookie mistakes like having Grotle fight against a Honchkrow in prime condition and using a lot of Special Attacks while Light Screen was still up. So while bad strategy did play a part, it probably wouldn't have been as prevalent if Ash kept himself in check.
    Oh I'm not disagreeing with you, it was his lack of keeping himself in check that led to his poor decision making and tactical naivety. Reggie even pointed it out and Paul exploited it to great extent though IMO Paul would have won even if Ash was fully in it.

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  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    Last time I recalled most of the interactions between Ash and Paul were Ash insisting on following or hanging out with Paul while Paul just wanted to be left alone so because of 1 episode where Paul wanted to see Pikachu's power equates to "stalking" no it doesn't. And again point still stands that Gary and Ash abrely interacted in Johto and IDK why you're bringing up AG and DP events that happened post-rivalry especially considering that after their final battle Paula nd Ash came to respect each other as well. Not to mention the basis for Ash and Gary's rivalry is completely different from Ash and Paul's so IDK why you're even trying to compare the 2 rivalries in the first place.
    *facepalms*

    Seriously? You're calling Satoshi's actions those of a stalker? How shallow can you be? He's a ten year old trying to put people on equal footing, something many ten year old brats out there wouldn't even try to do, and he gets called a stalker. Yeah... Real nice.

    Here's a little phrase for you, "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." This might help you figure out why Satoshi is all friendly and nice towards Shinji despite his tough-man attitude. I would say this makes him a bigger man than Shinji, if anything. But of course, none of that idealistic values mean much to your cynical soul, I'm sure.

    Also, the reason I brought up Shigeru post-rivalry is because it wasn't even really a 'post-rivalry'. Shigeru still acted as a critic on Satoshi's battling skills post-Johto, so he could still be considered Satoshi's rival on some level. Furthermore, their exchange of dialogues in AG and DP were probably some of the best character development since the OS, since you could see how the both of them (or rather just Shigeru really) have grown since the first few seasons, which is why I brought it up to show how childish Shinji can be. And save me that "Satoshi and Shinji got friendly post-rivalry" crap. We're talking about Shinji's attitude in this episode alone, not some far-off distant episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    This isn't MLP. Friendship only goes so far. If it was the end all then Ash would b a 5 time League winner and Pyramid King Brandon wouldn't have recognized Paul, despite his letting his emotions get to him, as a worthy trainer. And BW really? The series that many regard as Ash's worst is an example of how the power of friendship triumphs over all? Face it you don't have to coddle your Pokemon to be a good trainer. Hell Paul's Pokemon showed that they cared for him despite his harsh training methods. The guy has at least 4 regions worth of badges, so no the writers clearly intended to show he's a worthwhile trainer. The only one doing any real circle-jerking here is you getting all pissed off because Ash lost 6-2 when you yourself has admitted that you haven't even seen the episode.
    Yes, BW as an example of friendship triumphing, because it was obvious that the writers retreaded back to the coddling days Satoshi had in OS and, to some extent, AG, instead of sticking with the "Let's get tougher like Shinji and leave the idealism alone", not that I have problems with said idealism, so it is pretty much a circle-jerk, because Satoshi sucks as a trainer afterwards anyway, so such needless character development was merely there to prove a needless point that evidently got washed away in future episodes.

    Satoshi's skills aside, you're seriously rooting for this scumbag? I'm hardly surprised, of course. His military regime grinding down his Pokemon resulted in something similar to the Stockholm Syndrome, but instead of that, we have the 50 Shades of Abuse version where the Pokemon felt that such abuse was really necessary because of both the writers and the characters' ignorance to what's going on with Shinji's training. From the way his degrading eyes looked down on other Pokemon, releasing them as a means of labeling them as "worthless" to his reckless attitude to plow through his enemies with suicide tactics, I'd pretty much call this guy an abusive trainer, not a good trainer. A good battler? Perhaps. But as a trainer? Give me a break. Satoshi might be thick-headed, but he's ten times the trainer Shinji ever was, specifically because he knows how to balance out the harsh and the idealistic... at least until the writers decided to circle-jerk in BW, that is.

    But even before BW, in DP, you could easily see that Satoshi knows when to pull the leash, his treatment of Gliscor being the best example.

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark/Legendary Master View Post
    Oh I'm not disagreeing with you, it was his lack of keeping himself in check that led to his poor decision making and tactical naivety. Reggie even pointed it out and Paul exploited it to great extent though IMO Paul would have won even if Ash was fully in it.
    If Ash were keeping himself in check, he would've probably got it down to 2-0. Grotle was essentially a throwaway battle since he was put up against Honchkrow, and he could've been of some use against Ursaring since he could take more punishment from him than Staraptor or Buizel. Ursaring was the linchpin of Paul's strategy, so beating it would've been a huge step towards victory.

  8. #333
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    Finally got to watch the episode prior to this one, and I don't need to finish watching these two episodes to know why Shinji ultimately won in the end. It's the same reason why L was so effective against Kira in Death Note - Shinji's tactics were made to tackle Satoshi's Pokemon alone.

    He knew beforehand the kind of Pokemon Satoshi held in hand, and the moves/abilities they would have, hence his predicting skills were so effective. Shinji might as well have been a noob Pokemon player battling a gym leader in-game, because that's the same level of challenge Satoshi gave him. I could plan just as easily against a gym leader whose Pokemon I've studied, despite being a poor battler at Battle Frontier.

    In Satoshi's defense, he was always the kind of casual trainer who only battles with the Pokemon he likes - and there's nothing wrong with that. Shinji is the competitive battler, using prediction skills and strategies in every battle... not that it matters in this fluke of a match anyway, because he read Satoshi's moves like an open book. Satoshi still fared pretty well though, from what I could see so far. I was honestly surprised when he returned Buoysel when fighting against Torterra. This was probably because it's a "must-win" match for Satoshi, so he didn't take the usual "trust in your Pokemon despite type disadvantage" routine.

    Honestly, I could relate to him in terms of battle techniques. Most of the time, "offense is the best defense" is my thought as well, because OHKO sweeper techniques are still considered proper and legit tactics, even by Smogon's standards. Give me stallers and tanks and I wouldn't utilize them properly, though the "Toxic/Subseed" technique remain as one of my favorites.

    Anyway, about some of the things discussed earlier... the point of these two episodes don't really occur to me as a "let's put down Satoshi" moment. By the way, Satoshi didn't say "Why Stone Edge?" in the original version; he merely remarked "He said "Stone Edge"" in surprise. I know I'd be a little surprised anyway, considering the Grass/Ground type of Torterra. Aside from that, Satoshi is handling it quite well from what I could see so far. I'm at the 18 minute mark of Part 1, and Electabuzz just used Light Screen against the Grass Type Grotle's Energy Ball. Nice typing strategies on Satoshi's part btw, and again, it's quite obvious at this point that Shinji is merely winning because of the above prediction technique. Given a proper unprepared battle, he'd be Batman without Prep Time and go down as if Bats went against Supes.

    I'm less angry about these two episodes for now. The fan reactions gave me the wrong idea, especially with a certain "dark master"'s comments adding to the fuel. Ah well.

  9. #334
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    I loved how Pikachu got Burned status from Magmortar's Flame Body and I really thought that Ash's Buizel would shine against Magmortar, only for Paul to use Ursaring to knock poor Buizel out. I screamed when Staraptor and Pikachu both lost to Ursaring as well and I was relieved when Chimchar finally knocked him down a beg despite him losing eventually.

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