Evolving Strategy (600)

[Barbarooza]

dman, grow some balls and get over it (re: your 'analysis'). I don't really wanna call it an analysis because all you seemed to do it in was bitch over how Ash supposedly got screwed.

I think the writers did a good thing in letting Ash get the siht beaten out of him, as it will allow for more *gasp* development. (am I allowed to say that word or is it banned?).

Finally, Ash getting beaten soundly makes up for years of Ash's cheap wins (need I remind you all of 'Thunder Armour'?)

[Netbug009]

You know... I dunno if the writers meant it that way, but I think a lot of people could relate to Ash's predicament.

Have you ever tried to be a good person, do the right thing, and yet it feels like somebody who is a jerk is the one with the popularity and the friends and the respect that you know deep down they don't deserve? Because the moments those people who think they're awesome turn around that person is hurting others?

I know I have. It's FRUSTRATING man.

All the more reason Ash better kick Paul's butt by the end of Sinnoh. However, now was not the time. This was a harsh blow to Ash, but it makes the emotional connection with the viewers stronger. There's an old playwriter's saying... "Get the hero up a tree and throw rocks at them, then figure out how to get them down." The writers are putting Ash in as deep as they can before the payoff, and the payoff is gonna be awesome, I can tell already.

[dman_dustin]

dman, grow some balls and get over it (re: your 'analysis'). I don't really wanna call it an analysis because all you seemed to do it in was bitch over how Ash supposedly got screwed.

Mother hell do you stupid people only pick on some parts or did you completely ignore the fact that there were good matches. Grotle losing, and Gliscor losing. And did you completely ignore I said Paul still would've won even if in my opinion it was fairer, so what the hell?

I mean dear god you all hate Ash. So what? I don't care. But don't sit there and say Paul is the best goddamn thing ever. And Ash deserved to lose like this.

Deserving to lose like this, is obviously more biased than my analysis. Stop talking Bull, and do you're own analysis, if you aren't then I don't care for what you people say.

I said I was going to call people on it, and I am. Because it's obvious instead of countering my arguments you're just going to sit there and say I'm a ******* loser. At least Bliksem argued against my point, with valid counterpoints.

[Barbarooza]

Yes I did read your analysis, which lead me to write what I wrote. Yes, I agreed with you on some parts of it (like a couple of the battles), but, some of the things you ranted on about, like the abilities being involved, I found unnecessary. You made it out that it was impossible for the abilities to activate at the same time, but yes, it does happen. Unlikey does not equal impossible.

[Netbug009]

I mean dear god you all hate Ash.

...What? How does being okay with what happened in today's episode mean we hate Ash?

Heck, Ash is my favorite human character. The reason I'm alright with it is I'm looking at it from a writing perspective and how it can develop Ash's character and plotline for the future. I think the beatdown was needed to expand the ark, not out of dislike to Ash. Heck again, I'm a Chimchar/Monferno fan over here. Can you imagine my utter disdain on PAUL in that respect? But with strong plotlines where a character is put into a bad situation to get out of and be stronger for, it's darkest before dawn, always.

You have every right to dislike the episode, but that doesn't mean everybody who doesn't see it your way hates any specific character. They may just be seeing it differently.

(And guys? Do we really need to cuss each other out over a Pokemon episode?)

[dman_dustin]

You made it out that it was impossible for the abilities to activate at the same time, but yes, it does happen. Unlikey does not equal impossible.

And you don't see the one sidedness in that? After all static only served to activate Ursaring's guts. Why didn't static paralyze Magmortar?

And what about Staraptor's intimidate that's 100% no arguing there, but it wasn't used.

I like how people claim it's fair, despite this is the first episode, that abilities and statuses were so prevalent. What about Chimchar's Blaze, it could've easily activate during Byron, no it's not could've but should've. But I don't complain there.

Seriously why some people can't see the anime writers are the ones to choose what happens during the battle, is beyond my comprehension. The writers didn't do it because it was possible, they chose to do so for a reason.

Because anyone who wants to argue, that Pikachu would've lost to Ursaring, or Monferno would've lost to Electabuzz, even without Status/Abilities, then go right ahead. Explain to be how it would've happened.

Because you seem to be ignoring that the statuses and abilities are a hindrance, they aren't there to make the battle more intense, those things have effects. And one of burn's effects is reduced strength.

(And guys? Do we really need to cuss each other out over a Pokemon episode?)

I only cussed because Barbarooza told me to grow a pair, and to stop complaining.

What? How does being okay with what happened in today's episode mean we hate Ash?

Saying Ash deserved to lose like that pretty much says, I hate Ash. Of course there is a difference between "Ash deserved to lose this badly" to "Ash needed to lose this badly." And I'm only civil if other people are civil. I could be the patient, and better person of the argument, but seriously, how am I supposed to respond to flaming. Flaming to me is attacking me without being civil. Saying I need to grow a pair, is not civil.

[Bliksem]

No, there is no way this would likely happen in the games, 30% means the it's more likely to not be affected than be affected by it. The fact is every time someone attacked someone abilities/statuses had an effect right away, with the exception of Buizel, which could be explained by it being a water type. Pikachu's first ever attack on Magmortar, Pikachu received a burn. The first time Pikachu touched Ursaring, static was inflicted, the very first time Electabuzz used thunder, Monferno became paralyzed. How could not see the one-sidedness of that? It should've taken more than one hit to be afflicted by a status.

And you claim it was fair in the game-wise, except apparently to you mach punch goes at the same time as thunder punch.

In the game, percentage changes seem to work in a very strange way. Unlike 10%, 30% is just a large enough percentage that you can use the move and reliably expect the desired outcome.

When you speak of abilities, which was more likely, getting burned by Magmortar, or having Swift Swim activate because you happened to blow a hole in the ceiling just as it began to rain from what was a clear day before? I would say that Paul's luck in getting these abilities to proc were far more realistic than any abilities prior to this point. Pikachu's static against Vigoroth comes to mind.

Mainly, though, I think fact that these abilities proc'd showed that Paul takes more care in his battle matchups than Ash does. Ash should not have tried to melee with Pikachu against something that could burn. He should not have continued melee attacks while burned, as burns reduce attack power (not that this was represented in the anime). Guts, I'll admit, I didn't see coming, and honestly, there wasn't anything Ash could've done to change that besides try to stay ranged, though Paul actually gave Ursaring a powerful ranged attack as well.

My main point was that you seemed, for this particular episode, to only apply game physics to Paul, but not to Ash. Blizzard should have KO'd Staraptor. Even with Intimidate, it took too much damage. But these Pokemon don't have finite health pools. They don't have 301 HP or 354 or 278 or whatever. What they have is a will to do battle, and that alone is what keeps things interesting.

This is uncharacteristic of me, but Stone Edge was pimp. It's amazing Chimchar withstood that attack without suffering much damage.

Does anyone know what Ash and Pikachu were discussing when Torterra was on the field? I'd imagine they were attempting to use speed to their advantage to strike with Iron Tail. Too bad Paul totally screwed that plan up.

Would evolutions change anything? Possibly. Grotle -> Torterra wouldn't improve his situation; he's far too vulnerable to Paul's style of battling. You can't sit and take what was trained to hit like the equivalent of a Mac truck. Even Torterra has issues keeping up with Weavile, though Paul's training keeps his reaction speed up.

Finally, I would like to say that I don't hate Ash. I simply agree with Paul's method of training. I do believe he's a bit too harsh, but he does bring out great things in his Pokemon. He isn't leaps and bounds above Ash, but he is more considerate of different strategies. And it seems a lot of people ignore the fact that he did allow his Pokemon to get groomed and relax (Grotle's evolution episode). I'm fairly certain he wouldn't be nearly so hard on Ash if it weren't for the fact that Ash is rather antagonistic himself.

[Netbug009]

And you don't see the one sidedness in that? After all static only served to activate Ursaring's guts. Why didn't static paralyze Magmortar?

I like how people claim it's fair, despite this is the first episode, that abilities and statuses were so prevalent. What about Chimchar's Blaze, it could've easily activate during Byron, no it's not could've but should've. But I don't complain there.

Because anyone who wants to argue, that Pikachu would've lost to Ursaring, or Monferno would've lost to Electabuzz, even without Status/Abilities, then go right ahead. Explain to be how it would've happened.

"After all static only served to activate Ursaring's guts. Why didn't static paralyze Magmortar?"

And the Static on Monferno helped him activate Blaze. Both sides got one of these, and since you're arguing that this helped Ash lose when he shouldn't have, it's not really a fair point to pull into it.

"What about Chimchar's Blaze, it could've easily activate during Byron, no it's not could've but should've. But I don't complain there."

Not really. It's been established in an earlier episode that full out Blaze is something very emotional for Monferno, and only comes in times of GREAT distress. So far, such a level of distress has only been brought up by danger to his life and his anger over Paul. Making it come against a gym leader would have been a real cop out to the emotional part of the story.

"Because anyone who wants to argue, that Pikachu would've lost to Ursaring, or Monferno would've lost to Electabuzz, even without Status/Abilities, then go right ahead. Explain to be how it would've happened."

Sure! Simply put, we have no idea how strong Paul is now. It's clear that hes been doing some training since we last had a battle with him, and we don't know how much. You're judging as if Paul's and Ash's pokemon are the same "level" (or whatever the anime equivalent would be) when we have no proof they are.

Also, whether feeling Ash deserved the loss meaning you hate him or not, again, depends how you look at it. How is deserved different than needed, anyway?

[Bliksem]

"After all static only served to activate Ursaring's guts. Why didn't static paralyze Magmortar?"

I would like to add on to this point, stating that there was, that I remember, only one 'full paralysis' event per occurrence. Paul ordered a command from Magmortar that was delayed due to FP, allowing Pikachu to get off an Iron Tail on its head. Likewise with Ursaring. Monferno's FP prevented a Flametrower. Other than these occurrences, paralysis accomplished very little. Monferno was still very fast. The last punch was for dramatic effect, though they should've shown him zooming in instead of running.

[dman_dustin]

My main point was that you seemed, for this particular episode, to only apply game physics to Paul, but not to Ash. Blizzard should have KO'd Staraptor. Even with Intimidate, it took too much damage. But these Pokemon don't have finite health pools. They don't have 301 HP or 354 or 278 or whatever. What they have is a will to do battle, and that alone is what keeps things interesting.

Fine let's argue game wise, blizzard is a special attack, Weavile has one of the crappiest Special Attacks in the game, at base of 45. Which means that it can only go up to 202, max. Staraptor has a special defense of 50 which means the max is 218.

Also keep in mind that swords dance only affects physical attack, and therefore would not affect blizzards in any way. And I already said the second blizzard before the final blow didn't even touch Staraptor, I said maybe it affected Stataptor, maybe, but Staraptor was at a good distance that it could not have done full damage not in the least.

And the Static on Monferno helped him activate Blaze. Both sides got one of these, and since you're arguing that this helped Ash lose when he shouldn't have, it's not really a fair point to pull into it.

Except static hindered Monferno from using flamethrower, and it's not like Blaze helped, even if Ash didn't use a fire type move, blaze still didn't help out Ash at. Every other status infliction, and ability helped Paul. It can only be equal if they both benefit. If only one person benefits from it, then it's one sided. And even if paralysis prevented Ursaring from attacking, causing iron tail to connect, it still ultimately lead to nothing since Pikachu lost.

Making it come against a gym leader would have been a real cop out to the emotional part of the story.

But the fact is the writers chose to do so, makes it obvious it's up to the writers to establish this. Why suddenly choose to establish abilities and statuses during this battle. Likewise, why suddenly show Paul is an extremely powerful trainer. They were more or less tied near the beginning of the series. But now, it's like Paul is some frontier brain/elite four member. I hate that, establish things in the beginning not near the end where everyone thinks its not going to make a difference.

Seriously, wanting more Pokemon to evolve, or Ash using reserves/veterans is basically saying there is nothing more that Ash can do with his current team.

Sure! Simply put, we have no idea how strong Paul is now. It's clear that hes been doing some training since we last had a battle with him, and we don't know how much. You're judging as if Paul's and Ash's pokemon are the same "level" (or whatever the anime equivalent would be) when we have no proof they are.

Like I said earlier they should be relatively tied with each other. Suddenly showing how strong Paul is, is rather stupid, because look back at the matches prior to Honchkrow vs Grotle (the episode Turtwig evolved). Paul barely won a lot of things. Think of Paul's battle with Roark, he nearly lost, and the only reason why Ash lost was because he was trying to show off Paul.

How is deserved different than needed, anyway?

Deserved, is like Just Desserts, you deserve to lose, because it would knock you down a peg. You need to lose for character development. At what point has Ash been cocky in that he deserves to lose? Even after knocking out Weavile, Ash stopped himself from being too happy.

[Netbug009]

Random comment to drop into the thread, I just thought of something looking over caps again. Maybe I'm reading in too much, maybe not.

Monferno got blaze to activate under his control, right? And yet, he uses a non-fire type attack. Any chance that he's a bit afraid of blaze taking control again? That would also explain why he lost the hand-to-hand with Electrabuzz, being uncertain of himself at the time.

Again, I may be reading too much. Would not be the first time. xD

[Bliksem]

Fine let's argue game wise, blizzard is a special attack, Weavile has one of the crappiest Special Attacks in the game, at base of 45. Which means that it can only go up to 202, max. Staraptor has a special defense of 50 which means the max is 218.

Also keep in mind that swords dance only affects physical attack, and therefore would not affect blizzards in any way. And I already said the second blizzard before the final blow didn't even touch Staraptor, I said maybe it affected Stataptor, maybe, but Staraptor was at a good distance that it could not have done full damage not in the least.

Regardless, the point was that the anime isn't the game. Close Combat should have OHKO'd Weavile, but it didn't, and it shouldn't. That doesn't make for entertaining animation. All the anime has to do is obey certain things like Thunder never missing in Rain Dance or Light Screen having a passive effect (this especially impressed me with these two episodes).

I would have to say that your complaint about Stone Edge is void. You bring up the fact that Stone Edge is physical, but that doesn't prevent its direction from being controlled. After all, the stones are still physical manifestations, not comprised of energy. They are summoned, so it's fully possible that they could be controlled. I think it's a testament to Torterra's strength.

[dman_dustin]

I would have to say that your complaint about Stone Edge is void. You bring up the fact that Stone Edge is physical, but that doesn't prevent its direction from being controlled. After all, the stones are still physical manifestations, not comprised of energy. They are summoned, so it's fully possible that they could be controlled. I think it's a testament to Torterra's strength.

Only this is the first time, where stone edge is controlled, every other stone edge either hit its mark or missed. And with 80% chance of hitting wouldn't that decrease the likelihood of a move being controlled fully. It just seems unlikely that a move that supposed to be straight forward can stop it's movement and make a complete u-turn and follow.

And what's sad is some never miss moves, like swift have missed despite the fact they're not supposed to.

Why establish things in this battle? Isn't the definition of DEM state that actions of things come out of nowhere, thus they are considered cheap? While fine ignore the abilities and Statuses but stone edge, unless they established this from the beginning (which they didn't) stone edge being able to be controlled, then how is it not cheap.

There are so many things they established/ignored in this full battle, I don't see how you can call the match 100% fair.

[Shinnie-tan]

Random comment to drop into the thread, I just thought of something looking over caps again. Maybe I'm reading in too much, maybe not.

Monferno got blaze to activate under his control, right? And yet, he uses a non-fire type attack. Any chance that he's a bit afraid of blaze taking control again? That would also explain why he lost the hand-to-hand with Electrabuzz, being uncertain of himself at the time.

Again, I may be reading too much. Would not be the first time. xD

No, no...that could have been it. Or there's a chance that FP activated at the crucial moment of the punches connecting, letting Electabuzz getting the punch in and knocking Monferno out- animators and their love for explosions. He also did seem to be spending a lot of energy on controlling Blaze.

Also, agreed on the points you made about Ash's and Monferno's relationship(along with Ash's other pokemon and him xD).

[dman_dustin]

And I will again remind people (not directed at anyone), that I already said Ash would've lost anyway.

So why are really arguing with me?

Monferno got blaze to activate under his control, right? And yet, he uses a non-fire type attack. Any chance that he's a bit afraid of blaze taking control again? That would also explain why he lost the hand-to-hand with Electrabuzz, being uncertain of himself at the time.

Wouldn't that imply that Monferno was the one calling the shots? Because it was Ash who called out Mach Punch, so it was Ash's choice not to use a fire type. I think he primarily used it because of how cool looking it was.

[Bliksem]

No, you can't attribute everything 'cheap' to DEM. A lot of values have to be adjusted for entertainment purposes. Otherwise, this battle would've been over the moment Torterra smacked Staraptor with Stone Edge.

You have to realize that accuracy is a game-balance feature. Such things aren't necessary for the anime. In the game, you can choose between Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Heat Wave, Fire Blast and Overheat, or Discharge, Thunderbolt, Thunder and Zap Cannon. Each has an element of risk/reward. That element doesn't exist in the anime because the anime is not testing the skills of its viewers. It would be no fun to watch Pikachu use Thunder over and over again, only to miss every time. Instead, Thunder is usually reserved for a massive attack that decides the match and has only appeared a couple of times. Even comparing Electabuzz's Thunder to Pikachu's Thunderbolt won't give you an accurate description of their relative power levels.

I'm not saying the match was fair; it was clearly in Paul's favor as I'd hoped. I'm saying the match was relatively realistic. Very few things occurred that I wouldn't consider plausible. Almost every action had an easily ascertainable reason behind it.

There is no 'should have' when it comes to this anime. You can't say Gliscor 'should have' KO'd Torterra, because I can just as easily say Gliscor 'shouldn't have' done nearly so well considering their experience levels. DEM only refers to the impossible; i.e. Pikachu learning Feint during this bout. Evolution during combat is DEM, but this is an exception, 1) because it was expected, 2) because it ultimately accomplished nothing as far as the battle was concerned. Finally, it was good for the plot.

EDIT: I'm debating because it's 5 in the morning and I've nothing better to do. It's proven entertaining thus far. Haven't had a good debate in a long time. I think the last time I did, someone made a forum tag called 'Bliksemisanoob' or something like that. I was flattered.

[dman_dustin]

No, you can't attribute everything 'cheap' to DEM. A lot of values have to be adjusted for entertainment purposes. Otherwise, this battle would've been over the moment Torterra smacked Staraptor with Stone Edge.

I'm really confused because I tried to keep the anime and games separate, but it seems you're only countering me with game mechanics, thus I argued game mechanics thus you argued anime /=/ games. So I'm like wait, what.

You have to realize that accuracy is a game-balance feature. Such things aren't necessary for the anime. In the game, you can choose between Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Heat Wave, Fire Blast and Overheat, or Discharge, Thunderbolt, Thunder and Zap Cannon. Each has an element of risk/reward. That element doesn't exist in the anime because the anime is not testing the skills of its viewers. It would be no fun to watch Pikachu use Thunder over and over again, only to miss every time. Instead, Thunder is usually reserved for a massive attack that decides the match and has only appeared a couple of times. Even comparing Electabuzz's Thunder to Pikachu's Thunderbolt won't give you an accurate description of their relative power levels.

Still the establishment of things before this episode, would've been much more fairer. You do realize, that if most of the things that I call cheap and unfair in this battle, if they were established prior to the episode, I would have a completely different response even if Ash had lost the same exact way. And it would've been in my opinion, that Ash needs to work harder. And I seriously would not have "complained" as much, in fact I would be singing a different tune, if some of things that happened in this episode were established prior to this episode. Hell if Electabuzz dodged stone edge from Regirock, thus causing Regirock to control stone edge, I would've been fine with Torterra controlling stone edge as it was in this episode.

I'm not saying the match was fair; it was clearly in Paul's favor as I'd hoped. I'm saying the match was relatively realistic. Very few things occurred that I wouldn't consider plausible. Almost every action had an easily ascertainable reason behind it.

There is no 'should have' when it comes to this anime. You can't say Gliscor 'should have' KO'd Torterra, because I can just as easily say Gliscor 'shouldn't have' done nearly so well considering their experience levels. DEM only refers to the impossible; i.e. Pikachu learning Feint during this bout. Evolution during combat is DEM, but this is an exception, 1) because it was expected, 2) because it ultimately accomplished nothing as far as the battle was concerned. Finally, it was good for the plot.

I think my biggest overall gripe is how things were established in this episode. They seemed to me to be established to yes screw over Ash at every turn. I mean were the only reasons why some of the things established in this episode, was because then Ash would have no viable counter thus he would lose horribly.

Still even if that was the case, I really don't see how much of a difference that would've made, because Ash still would've lost, because come on even if Paul's other Pokemon were weakened, Honchkrow received almost no damage, and how Ash's weakened Pokemon could knock out Honchkrow, is hard to comprehend.

See the message would still have been received even if it was 6-4. The only reason that its 6-2 is to plainly to say "No Ash, you are wrong, it's not about friendship at all, it's about absolute power"

However that goes against everything I believe Ash is trying to do, when he trains his Pokemon. I always said, that with Ash it wasn't always friendship. Because look at DP100, Ash trains his Pokemon pretty hard.

The only real difference between Paul and Ash (in my opinion, which appears to be dead wrong) is that Ash would let his Pokemon rest once they've fainted, even while practicing. Ash would've stopped. Paul tried to revive Chimchar by shocking the hell out of it from Elekid (at the time) and refused to allow Chimchar to heal despite Nurse Joy saying so.

But I guess I was wrong because Ash lost 6-2.

[Bliksem]

Well, if you want to know a prime reason for their differences, look how Ash and Paul give their commands. Ash is elaborate while Paul is succinct. Paul's Pokemon know exactly what he wants from them, so he can pace the battle at his own whim, pushing when his opponents need to be pressured. Ash, on the other hand, pauses after every event, allowing his opponent to rest.

[dman_dustin]

Well, if you want to know a prime reason for their differences, look how Ash and Paul give their commands. Ash is elaborate while Paul is succinct. Paul's Pokemon know exactly what he wants from them, so he can pace the battle at his own whim, pushing when his opponents need to be pressured. Ash, on the other hand, pauses after every event, allowing his opponent to rest.

Maybe so but wouldn't that be saying that when it matters most real strategy isn't necessary?

Because think about it, the reason Ash is elaborate, is because of how his creative strategies work. Saying that Ash can't be creative, which is one of the things Ash is known for, is (in my opinion) telling Ash he's a pathetic trainer.

The problem is conventional methods don't work for Ash (aka Paul's strategies) because Ash usually loses when he's straightforward, he lost to Fantina because of this. So Ash had to find a viable counter for hypnosis, which he did with counter shield.

See the main problem with the whole thing is they are already saying contest like tactics give them the edge in battle. While I agree that shouldn't work with Paul, I don't think its necessary to tell Ash, in order to beat lots of powerful trainers, is to be straight forward.

Because as I said, Ash has tried that, and lost, why the sudden full circle?

Edit: I should point out that Ash has been relentless, in fact with Gardenia's Cherubi, he did a three move combo just to knock it out.

[Blaziryu]

Wow, Ash sure got his a** kicked in this episode. This just shows that Ash still needs improvement. But at least Chimchar evolve into Monferno. Overall, it was a good episode.