The Official WWE Thread, Brother!

[Platinum fan.]

Cena's only good feud out of all of those was with Punk. Cena destroying Nexus(of the best factions in ages) wasn't good. Neither Cena or Batista had any good matches with each other because neither can wrestle. His fued with edge was meh. And even if Cena does beat the Rock, that doesn't mean he's beating the attitude era fans. That will just make them complain more. Most fans from what I see didn't even want the Rock to be champ because hes barely there. I'd rather have Orton, Ryback or the Great ****ing Khali beat Rock before Cena though.

But no, Cena one way for another is clearly gonna become champ and preach about overcoming the odds and thanking the Cenation that buys his merch,

Batista wasn't the best but the man put on some entertaining matches for me and I enjoyed his feud with Cena, for the most part. I enjoyed Cena's feud with Edge as well. I enjoyed Cena's opponents more the Cena himself though. As far as Rock as champ, I don't mind him being champ I just didn't like the fact that he ended CM Punk's long title reign, I still think someone on the active everday roster should have done it, but it's over now. If he won it from a standard title reign, I would have been more okay with it, not that I have a problem with it now, at least Rock gets to show up.

I'm not looking forward to Cena as champ, hopefully he'll just hold it until someone else is ready for it. Still, the only reason I want to see Cena win is to see the Attitude Era fans cry and complain about it. Again I'm not a fan of John Cena, but he really isn't as bad as Attitude Era fans make him out to be. He became WWE's poster boy when Brock Lesnar, Stone Cold, and Rock all left the company so in that regard I do respect Cena. WWE needs to improve the product and develop their stars and turn them into likeable wrestlers people can get behind, and I'm sorry but jobbing to guys past their prime and losing titles to them isn't that. That's just a money maker for the moment. So yes I want to see Cena beat Rock. I like the Rock a lot more then Cena, but Cena beating one of the Attitude Era's biggest guys will send a message...and piss off Attitude Era fans, which is the only real reason I want it. I'm so devious.

Edit: I would have liked it more if someone else besides Cena took the belt at mania also. I knew that wouldn't happen since only the biggest names will be put against Rock, and only their top one actually has a chance to win. WWE would never let Punk retain against Rock. At while I would have liked to see Ryback win, I doubt they'd have him go over Rock. Though it would have made for a interesting story to boost him back up. Him beating a guy Cena and Punk both failed to. But I agree that I didn't exactly want Cena in this. Orton, Sheamus, Ryback, or someone of that category would be fine, but Cena is what I got so I just have to put my personal feelings aside for this one.

[flamebeam]

I still can't grasp why everyone hates cena so much. like platinum fan, i also can't wait to see cena beat the rock and have the attitude era fanboys b**** about it. in case they didn't know, wwe is all about the kids now, so they can_ shut up. and cena is a good guy and a role model to.kids, so people despising him is immature and vicious. and i feel like peer pressure is a factor, like it's the norm to hate cena and everyone who isn't a kid should hate him, which is stupid. and he may not be an amazing wrestler, but he still puts a good show. and since he doesn't really have a gimmick or alter ego like everyone else in the wwe, sometimes his promos don't feel like other promos, because it's just him talking to the audience. but i like the fact that he is what i would call the "resolute hero" who serves as a template for everything that is babyface. and there's nothing wrong with that.. i think the wwe would be strange without that

[Sid87]

I don't like Cena, but I don't hate him, either. He's got a lot of charisma and isn't awful in the ring. There have certainly been main-eventers with less talent (Ultimate Warrior, Hogan, Kevin Nash) or less charisma (Brock, Goldberg, Bret Hart). I think people just hate that he went from being edgy and hip to being such a pure babyface. And he's the face of the post-Attitude era, which everyone hates because it's such a shadow of the late 90's and early 2000's.

[Jb]

I still can't grasp why everyone hates cena so much. like platinum fan, i also can't wait to see cena beat the rock and have the attitude era fanboys b**** about it. in case they didn't know, wwe is all about the kids now, so they can_ shut up. and cena is a good guy and a role model to.kids, so people despising him is immature and vicious. and i feel like peer pressure is a factor, like it's the norm to hate cena and everyone who isn't a kid should hate him, which is stupid. and he may not be an amazing wrestler, but he still puts a good show. and since he doesn't really have a gimmick or alter ego like everyone else in the wwe, sometimes his promos don't feel like other promos, because it's just him talking to the audience. but i like the fact that he is what i would call the "resolute hero" who serves as a template for everything that is babyface. and there's nothing wrong with that.. i think the wwe would be strange without that

The Rock already beat Cena so even if Cena wins this year the internet fans wont really care. Sure they'll still bitch but this isn't the "match of the century" like it was last year. This is all assuming that the Rock retains in the Chamber.

As for putting on a good show, it's not good enough for him to be in the spotlight for so long.

[charizardfan]

Cena's only good feud out of all of those was with Punk. Cena destroying Nexus(of the best factions in ages) wasn't good. Neither Cena or Batista had any good matches with each other because neither can wrestle. His fued with edge was meh.

I disagree with this. Cena's matches with Batista were excellent, and the two displayed great chemistry together. His feud with Edge was the thing that finally got Edge to that next level, after four years of WWE trying and failing to move him to the top. I'll admit that booking became bad for them later on, but the only reason Nexus became such a hot thing in the first place is because they went after Cena. As an Attitude Era fan myself, I don't really care about Rock losing to Cena. He's got to lose sometime, and I already got to see my favorite come back, beat Cena (which completely took me by surprise), beat Punk, and win the title. And who better for Rock to lose to than the current company face? It's a "Rock vs. Hogan" thing, but with Rock in Hogan's spot. I enjoyed last year's match, and I'll probably enjoy the rematch.

My only issue is seeing this happen at WrestleMania 29, and the fact that the main event of WWE's biggest show of the year might essentially be the same match they had last year but with the title added to it. What scares me more is that the co-main event of 'Mania could very well be Triple H vs. Brock Lesar II, a match I didn't even want to see the first time, especially not at the expense of the far more interesting Undertaker vs. Lesnar.

[flamebeam]

I disagree with this. Cena's matches with Batista were excellent, and the two displayed great chemistry together. His feud with Edge was the thing that finally got Edge to that next level, after four years of WWE trying and failing to move him to the top. I'll admit that booking became bad for them later on, but the only reason Nexus became such a hot thing in the first place is because they went after Cena. As an Attitude Era fan myself, I don't really care about Rock losing to Cena. He's got to lose sometime, and I already got to see my favorite come back, beat Cena (which completely took me by surprise), beat Punk, and win the title. And who better for Rock to lose to than the current company face? It's a "Rock vs. Hogan" thing, but with Rock in Hogan's spot. I enjoyed last year's match, and I'll probably enjoy the rematch.

My only issue is seeing this happen at WrestleMania 29, and the fact that the main event of WWE's biggest show of the year might essentially be the same match they had last year but with the title added to it. What scares me more is that the co-main event of 'Mania could very well be Triple H vs. Brock Lesar II, a match I didn't even want to see the first time, especially not at the expense of the far more interesting Undertaker vs. Lesnar.

i think undertaker will still fight lesnar. what i think will happen is triple h will show up and brock lesnar will talk trash. then triple h will say something like this:

"i couldn't beat you, but i know someone who can... the undertaker!!!"

and it makes sense because he lost to undertaker twice, so he would be "the only guy that can beat lesnar"

[Platinum fan.]

I disagree with this. Cena's matches with Batista were excellent, and the two displayed great chemistry together. His feud with Edge was the thing that finally got Edge to that next level, after four years of WWE trying and failing to move him to the top. I'll admit that booking became bad for them later on, but the only reason Nexus became such a hot thing in the first place is because they went after Cena. As an Attitude Era fan myself, I don't really care about Rock losing to Cena. He's got to lose sometime, and I already got to see my favorite come back, beat Cena (which completely took me by surprise), beat Punk, and win the title. And who better for Rock to lose to than the current company face? It's a "Rock vs. Hogan" thing, but with Rock in Hogan's spot. I enjoyed last year's match, and I'll probably enjoy the rematch.

My only issue is seeing this happen at WrestleMania 29, and the fact that the main event of WWE's biggest show of the year might essentially be the same match they had last year but with the title added to it. What scares me more is that the co-main event of 'Mania could very well be Triple H vs. Brock Lesar II, a match I didn't even want to see the first time, especially not at the expense of the far more interesting Undertaker vs. Lesnar.

Glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed Cena's battles with Batista and Edge. It really did get Edge into the big main event. With Edge they kept teasing he could be main event but never really got him in the spot and finally when he got into the feud with Cena it put him over as a true main eventer.

I also want to see Undertaker vs Lesnar at mania. What a dream match for me. Undertaker has never beaten Brock Lesnar at a PPV to my knowledge so what a great match this would be for Undertaker's legendary streak. I always enjoyed their 2002 rivalry. It made me look forward to Smackdown more then RAW. But yeah, I figured we'd get another Cena vs Rock match someday but I didn't think it would be so soon. I actually thought they would save Rock vs Cena II for the Wrestlemania 30. Unless they are building for Rock vs Cena III the rubber match to see who truly is the best. What a shock that would be.

[Laser Shuckle]

I'm not looking forward to Cena as champ, hopefully he'll just hold it until someone else is ready for it. Still, the only reason I want to see Cena win is to see the Attitude Era fans cry and complain about it.

Why does it really matter? You'd prefer to watch Cena's stale character win the belt for the eleventh time and dominate the main event once again over Rock winning just because of what some of the fans think?

And sorry but I don't see how Punk is lower on the ladder compared to Cena, other than the fact that he's more popular. I remember reading an article awhile back about how Punk actually managed to pass Cena in merchandise sales. I think Punk's more entertaining in the ring, and his promos come off as more genuine compared to Cena who shows up on Raw beating the same tired underdog angle saying things like how has no chance against Rock or Punk, acting like we don't all know which title he is going to choose. Come to think of it when was the last time anyone here was excited for anything Cena did himself?

Wow, it really hits home how much of a cartoon character Ryback is when Lesnar's comes in.

That's just because Lesnar is so awesome. glad to see he's back. Though just the thought of Lesnar vs Triple H again is cringe worthy. Will WWE headquarters explode if they have the "Bad guy" lose clean to end it for once?

[Platinum fan.]

Why does it really matter? You'd prefer to watch Cena's stale character win the belt for the eleventh time and dominate the main event once again over Rock winning just because of what some of the fans think?

And sorry but I don't see how Punk is lower on the ladder compared to Cena, other than the fact that he's more popular. I remember reading an article awhile back about how Punk actually managed to pass Cena in merchandise sales. I think Punk's more entertaining in the ring, and his promos come off as more genuine compared to Cena who shows up on Raw beating the same tired underdog angle saying things like how has no chance against Rock or Punk, acting like we don't all know which title he is going to choose. Come to think of it when was the last time anyone here was excited for anything Cena did himself?



That's just because Lesnar is so awesome. glad to see he's back. Though just the thought of Lesnar vs Triple H again is cringe worthy. Will WWE headquarters explode if they have the "Bad guy" lose clean to end it for once?

Yes, I want to see Cena win just so fans can complain. While Cena's not even close to my favorite Wrestler I don't hate him and he's in the main event whether he's champ or not so what's the difference? Trust I'm not a hardcore Cena fan. I complained greatly when he beat Ziggler in the steel cage.

I don't know if you were saying this to me, but I don't consider Punk lower then Cena. I like both CM Punk and the Rock more then John Cena. The problem is WWE treats Cena as a bigger star then Punk. Punk's 2012 reign felt secondary to all of Cena's storylines until they turned him heel. That doesn't mean I think Punk is lower then Cena. Punk's my current fave on the WWE roster right now but that doesn't change the fact that WWE treat John Cena better. It's a shame CM Punk's character has dropped since 2012 so I'm actually glad they took the belt off him to give him a different story for awhile. As far as Rock winning the belt, I have no problem with it. It means we'll get to see the Rock a lot more on RAW and hopefully Smackdown. My only small problem was he ended Punk's long reign when I thought someone else should have. True there was nobody around that qualified but that's just my selfish want. But Rock as champ, I have no problem with it. I wish we could see him wrestle on TV and get some matches with Ziggler, Barret, Rhodes, Sandow, and others as warm ups before he wrestles at PPV's but I've seen what he can do so I'm not complaining about it either.

Me wanting Cena to beat Rock has nothing to do with Cena or Rock being better. I just love the reactions the fans make on Youtube. It's a selfish desire of mine that is not logical at all. So it's not even related to Cena or Rock at all, it's the fans I want to see rant. I love WWE fanboy rants. I'm weird like that.

[charizardfan]

And sorry but I don't see how Punk is lower on the ladder compared to Cena, other than the fact that he's more popular. I remember reading an article awhile back about how Punk actually managed to pass Cena in merchandise sales. I think Punk's more entertaining in the ring, and his promos come off as more genuine compared to Cena who shows up on Raw beating the same tired underdog angle saying things like how has no chance against Rock or Punk, acting like we don't all know which title he is going to choose. Come to think of it when was the last time anyone here was excited for anything Cena did himself?

Punk being lower than Cena has everything to do with popularity, because the most popular guys are popular because they're the best. And Punk sold one item of merchandise more than Cena, a new t-shirt that had just come out in the middle of his hottest run, as compared to the one Cena had already had out for a few months. Overall, Cena still sold more merchandise than Punk did, and sold more t-shirts when a new one of his came out.

As far as promos, something I've personally noticed is that Punk's most "genuine" promos (the 6/27/11 one, the 1/7/13 one, the one he cut on the go-home show before SummerSlam 2011, etc.) only happen whenever he leans on the fourth wall. Whenever he cuts a promo entirely in kayfabe, it sounds no more "real" than anyone else's. Cena's been able to sell storylines with promos dealing with entirely fictional storylines, without having to make things sound like a shoot. Not saying Punk isn't good on the mic (he is; very much so), but the ones that many of his fans point out as being so much better than Cena are often the same ones where he got to say things that people otherwise wouldn't be able to say, and things that WWE knows certain demographics (smarks) are going to respond to. Take that away, and there's nothing that puts Punk above Cena.

I've been excited for plenty of things involving Cena. More than I've been excited about involving Punk, anyway. In fact, aside from his feuds with John Cena and The Rock, what has Punk done that was really that exciting?

[Jb]

Everything during his Straight-Edge gimmick.

Which he should go to actually.

[charizardfan]

Wasn't that the gimmick where he spent most of his time getting destroyed by Undertaker, Rey Mysterio, and Big Show in one forgettable feud after another? The Jeff Hardy storyline was good, but nothing else about the SES was great. Solid stuff, but certainly not up to the standards of some of Cena's best feuds, or even the work Punk was doing with Cena and Rock.

[-Raiga-]

Wasn't that the gimmick where he spent most of his time getting destroyed by Undertaker, Rey Mysterio, and Big Show in one forgettable feud after another? The Jeff Hardy storyline was good, but nothing else about the SES was great. Solid stuff, but certainly not up to the standards of some of Cena's best feuds, or even the work Punk was doing with Cena and Rock.

I completely disagree. His last few promos have been good, but lets face it, he doesn't even have a character other then "generic heel". Compare that to a cult leader with obvious ego problems, ...well, there is no comparison. Heck, I'd rate his promo against Rey's daughter one of the best promos of all time.

Much less I don't get how they are forgettable feuds, I can remember every aspect of each feud(I loved the scott armstrong stuff with undertaker, was pretty funny), meanwhile I honestly couldn't tell you who was in the main event of whatever PPV 2 months ago.

[Laser Shuckle]

Punk being lower than Cena has everything to do with popularity, because the most popular guys are popular because they're the best.

Well if you really want to generalize... or it could also be because they are consistently pushed or have been around for awhile. I was talking more about the total package, not just the person who can pander to kids the most and sell the most crappy overpriced merchandise.

As far as promos, something I've personally noticed is that Punk's most "genuine" promos (the 6/27/11 one, the 1/7/13 one, the one he cut on the go-home show before SummerSlam 2011, etc.) only happen whenever he leans on the fourth wall. Whenever he cuts a promo entirely in kayfabe, it sounds no more "real" than anyone else's.

The same thing can be said for Cena, otherwise he is just riding off his stale "never give up" good guy garbage. Punk to me is more convincing even without breaking the fourth wall, plus his jokes don't suck. It's rare to see Cena stay in kayfabe, and not have it look lame or tired and even more so to see him tell a joke that doesn't make him look like a D list version of the Rock.

Cena's been able to sell storylines with promos dealing with entirely fictional storylines, without having to make things sound like a shoot. Not saying Punk isn't good on the mic (he is; very much so), but the ones that many of his fans point out as being so much better than Cena are often the same ones where he got to say things that people otherwise wouldn't be able to say, and things that WWE knows certain demographics (smarks) are going to respond to. Take that away, and there's nothing that puts Punk above Cena.

Again, I can't remember the last time I've been sold by him at all unless he is also seemingly breaking the fourth wall (like with his Rock and Punk feuds) in which case Punk does it better. Cena most of the time has to give us lame jokes and predictable BS (like his latest promo) to sell a storyline. Sure Punk doesn't have a ton to work with outside of his "Pipebomb" antics but like I said to me he is more convincing despite it.

I've been excited for plenty of things involving Cena. More than I've been excited about involving Punk, anyway. In fact, aside from his feuds with John Cena and The Rock, what has Punk done that was really that exciting?

So when Punk was going mic to mic with the Rock only several weeks ago you were more excited about Cena's terrible jokes and predictable Rumble aspirations? not to mention his next opponent will probably be rehashed from last year and the fact that all his matches get more of a spotlight most of the time than Punk's. Also I don't think it's fair to exclude Punk's feud with Cena and Rock when the former was his single biggest feud and the latter he is still going at it with.

Sorry but I don't see any reason to get excited for Twice in a Lifetime, even if there's a chance Cena won't "overcome the odds" (lol) compared to them booking something new. Unless you're WWE corporate and you just want to get the most cash possible.

[Shadow Lucario]

I like Cena and everything, but I don't want him to win the title again (which I already know is going to happen). I feel they're taking the easy way out. "Oh we don't want Punk to have the title anymore. Who to give it to......HEY CENA! WANT ANOTHER TITLE REIGN???" Maybe hype someone else up and give them the title like they did with Swagger. Granted, that didn't work, but it might with the right person.

[charizardfan]

Well if you really want to generalize... or it could also be because they are consistently pushed or have been around for awhile.

But they're only "consistently pushed" because of how good they are.

Do you think John Cena would be around at the top as long as he is if he weren't the best? No, of course not. He's where he is because WWE realizes he's the best. Need to get someone - let's say Edge, RVD, or CM Punk - to that "next level"? Feud them with John Cena. Need to reintroduce The Rock and Brock Lesnar to the WWE? Feud them with John Cena before anyone else. He's the go-to answer for every problem WWE has because of how well he delivers.

I was talking more about the total package, not just the person who can pander to kids the most and sell the most crappy overpriced merchandise.

What's wrong with pandering to kids? They're Cena's chief demographic and are the ones making him as popular as he is. Hogan pandered to kids. The Rock panders to nostalgic Attitude Era fans. CM Punk panders to the IWC. Does that make any of them bad? No, it makes them good because only a terrible wrestler would alienate their fanbase.

And selling merchandise is part of the "total package". In fact, making money and drawing fans to see you is the most important part of being a wrestler, because it's a sign of how entertaining you are (and professional wrestling is entertainment). What good is it for you to excel at anything else if no one wants to watch you do it? As far as the "total package", I've yet to see any area where Punk really tops Cena. Punk is good, but he's not better than Cena.

The same thing can be said for Cena, otherwise he is just riding off his stale "never give up" good guy garbage.

As long as his fans (the younger demographic) loves to see Cena doing what he does, then it'd be stupid for him not to do it. The last time a popular act changed his gimmick with no one asking for it (Steve Austin), the results were terrible. "If it ain't broke", and all.

The difference between what Cena's best known for (pandering to kids) and what Punk's best known for ("Pipebomb!") is that what Cena does doesn't rely on shocking an audience, which means that his act lasts longer.

Again, Punk is very good on the mic and in the ring, and I'm not trying to say that all he does is lean on the fourth wall, but he's just not as good as Cena is.

Punk to me is more convincing even without breaking the fourth wall, plus his jokes don't suck. It's rare to see Cena stay in kayfabe, and not have it look lame or tired and even more so to see him tell a joke that doesn't make him look like a D list version of the Rock.

I would argue this, but the quality of humor is way too subjective for me to get into. But Cena's jokes tend to amuse his audience. His act pisses some of us off, yes, but he's not interested in us, really.

Again, I can't remember the last time I've been sold by him at all unless he is also seemingly breaking the fourth wall (like with his Rock and Punk feuds) in which case Punk does it better. Cena most of the time has to give us lame jokes and predictable BS (like his latest promo) to sell a storyline. Sure Punk doesn't have a ton to work with outside of his "Pipebomb" antics but like I said to me he is more convincing despite it.

I can't speak for you, but I do know that Cena's convinced more people in general to pay for him on pay-per-view (WrestleMania 28 & 27, One Night Stand 2006, Extreme Rules 2012, etc.) and tune in to see him on Raw than Punk has. The "lame jokes and predictable BS" work, and they've sold more than Punk's "pipebomb" shtick. Which would make him more convincing one by default.

So when Punk was going mic to mic with the Rock only several weeks ago you were more excited about Cena's terrible jokes and predictable Rumble aspirations?

Of course not. I loved the Rock vs. Punk feud, and was surprised with the chemistry the two of them had on the mic. They told a very enjoyable story in just the three weeks leading up to the Rumble. But that's part of what I'm saying here. Punk is only at his best when working with talent (Rock, Cena) who have a record of putting on excellent angles and selling shows successfully with a variety of different talent.

Also I don't think it's fair to exclude Punk's feud with Cena and Rock when the former was his single biggest feud and the latter he is still going at it with.

That's exactly the reasoning. Punk's biggest feud was undisputedly with John Cena. And part of the reason for that was because of Cena. Meanwhile, if you had to ask what was Cena's biggest feud you'd have several different choices: The Rock, HHH, HBK, Batista, Edge, Lesnar, JBL, Punk, Umaga, RVD... the list goes on. And you could make a great case for most of them.

That's how good Cena is, and how far ahead of Punk he is.

I completely disagree. His last few promos have been good, but lets face it, he doesn't even have a character other then "generic heel". Compare that to a cult leader with obvious ego problems, ...well, there is no comparison. Heck, I'd rate his promo against Rey's daughter one of the best promos of all time.

Much less I don't get how they are forgettable feuds, I can remember every aspect of each feud(I loved the scott armstrong stuff with undertaker, was pretty funny), meanwhile I honestly couldn't tell you who was in the main event of whatever PPV 2 months ago.

Punk's character now (or at least up until the Rumble) was the insecure WWE Champion who felt slighted by WWE and the fans, and who felt he had to prove he was the "Best in the World" by demanding respect from everyone he came into contact with. It wasn't as much an obvious gimmick as SES, but it was a character.

As far as the second point, I said those feuds were forgettable because, honestly, there's been absolutely very little talk of any of them after they ended. When I hear people talk about the highlights of Punk's career, I usually hear about his ECW title run, cashing in Money in the Bank on Edge, feud with Jeff Hardy, the feud with John Cena. You never really hear about much of SES aside from the gimmick itself. None of those feuds really ended up accomplishing much for Punk.

[flamebeam]

^you can throw these facts ans figures into the discussion, but cena is lucky that wwe is PG. there used to be a time when that wasn't the case, and you best believe punk would be way more successful than cena. my point is, you keep saying he's more popular, and that's why. but cm punk is better than cena. cm punk can wrestle better than him. I've said already that punk is my favorite, and if he weren't as a good a wrestler as he is then this wouldn't be the case. that's also why i really liked the punk/D. Bryan feud, because it was the battle of the technicians. and like laser shuckle said, punk doesn't need to lean on the 4th wall to have a good promo. maybe cena sells more because lots of kids beg their parents to go to PPVs and buy his merchandise. ever considered that? other wise cena's promos are okay/decent. it's very predictable. meanwhile, even though punk is the "generic heel", he does a good job performing it in his promo. that recent one he did about facts vs. opinion was great. he started by naming facts about his career and opinions of the rock and the royal rumble and tied it very well with saying how him beating the rock was a fact. i know that's been done before, but he still sells it. even the way he says "that's a FACT!" is very well done. and that's something cena can't do because he starts losing his voice when he gets into his promo. I mean, you can't possibly believe that cena makes better promos than cm punk. and about feuds, punk has been in the semi-spotlight for only 1 year. not to mention that for the past year, he was 2nd fiddle for the first half of 2012 and then generic heel for the second half. and you'd probably say that's because cena is better so wwe puts him in the spotlight, but i disagree. i think it's because cena is the wwe's white knight so they WANT him over punk to keep the strong child audience existent. if they had kept punk's momentum, then he would have been the biggest guy, but he's also to difficult to control, as opposed to cena, who is the wwe's good little money maker. basically, punk can wrestle, do promos, and be entertaining better than cena

[celestial phantom]

So I was watching WWE main event on Wednesday night, and Tensai got the biggest reaction since the A-Train and Albert chants almost 1 year ago. After such a lousy booking and re-introduction being shot to the moon. This might be the thing to get Tensai back over with the crowd if he teams with Brodus for a while. I was actually hoping for a feud between the two, months ago hoping it would do both good, but WWE had missed the boat on it. The thing is that the crowd was truly into it. This is how much crowd involvement is to getting superstars over.

All we need is some rock, then we'd have a stable of hip hop funk n' rock~ lgi WWE do it!

[charizardfan]

^you can throw these facts ans figures into the discussion, but cena is lucky that wwe is PG. there used to be a time when that wasn't the case, and you best believe punk would be way more successful than cena.

Ignoring for a moment that WWE has been rated PG for most of its history (the Attitude Era was the exception, not the rule), Cena's success began in 2003. He became one of the top merchandise sellers in 2004. He won the WWE Championship in 2005 and became the company's undisputed representative by the end of 2006. All this while WWE was still rated TV-14. So Cena was able to draw with an edgier audience as well as a younger one. The point being that talent is talent. It doesn't matter what time period you're in.

my point is, you keep saying he's more popular, and that's why. but cm punk is better than cena.

But if CM Punk were better than Cena was, he'd be the more popular one, wouldn't he? Wrestling isn't real. You can't judge the merits of a guy by the way he pretends to fight, because that makes no sense. You have to judge his ability to entertain fans. And Cena's popularity is indicative of how entertaining he is.

cm punk can wrestle better than him. I've said already that punk is my favorite, and if he weren't as a good a wrestler as he is then this wouldn't be the case. that's also why i really liked the punk/D. Bryan feud, because it was the battle of the technicians.

Punk is a very good wrestler, and I'd never say otherwise. I get why he has his fans. But he's not better than Cena, not in the ring or on the mic. A crowd is usually hotter for a Cena match than a Punk match, they get far more into the stories he tells, and the focus is usually all on him ("Let's Go Cena/Cena Sucks!").

It speaks volumes that if you asked most people what CM Punk's best WWE match was, most of them would point to Money in the Bank. Meanwhile, with Cena, there's not only that, but Raw 2007 (vs. Shawn Michaels), ONS '06 (vs. RVD), Unforgiven '06 (vs. Edge), RR '07 (vs. Umaga), WM22 (vs. Triple H), SS '08 (vs. Batista), and many more.

And here's the funny thing about the Punk-Bryan feud. While the matches were good, the talking point of that story wasn't Punk. It was AJ who got all the attention and it was AJ who everyone was focused on, despite her not even wrestling. Would that ever happen with Cena? No. Cena's too good for anyone's attention to be anywhere else but on him.

Even at WrestleMania 28, when it was Rock vs. Cena in The Rock's hometown (not to mention his first singles match in nearly a decade) and you'd think all the attention would be on him, what was one of the biggest chants that evening? "Let's Go Cena/Cena Sucks".

and like laser shuckle said, punk doesn't need to lean on the 4th wall to have a good promo.

Neither does Cena. He's had plenty of good promos where he stayed completely in character without needing to "wink" at the audience a bit.

And I wasn't saying Punk needed to lean on the 4th wall to have a good promo (Raiga mentioned the one against Mysterio's daughter, and that was entirely in character), but that's what his most celebrated and "genuine" promos tend to be. The ones set to catch the attention of fans who are more interested in that side of wrestling.

maybe cena sells more because lots of kids beg their parents to go to PPVs and buy his merchandise. ever considered that? other wise cena's promos are okay/decent. it's very predictable.

And Punk's promos aren't predictable? Here's a rundown of almost every Punk promo since his heel turn:

- "I have been champion for ______ days."
- "I deserve your respect."
- "You people..."
- "I am the Best in the World."
- *rundown of legends who couldn't hold the title as long as he could*

And even in the vaulted SES days, almost all of Punk's promos would be geared to how much better he is than the audience and his opponent because of his Straight Edge lifestyle.

The truth is just like every wrestler will have signature moves that tend to pop in every match they wrestle, every great mic worker has catchphrases or things that they repeat. Rock, Foley, Jericho, Austin, Hogan, Undertaker, DX, etc. were all repetitive in their mic work and if you watch anyone long enough, you'll begin to see the patterns. Cena isn't unique in that.

And yes, I have considered that Cena sells because kids get their parents to buy stuff. Most kids merchandise is sold that way (unless you really think Middle/Elementary School children are going to be able to pay $30 for t-shirts or $50 for pay-per-views). I don't see how it really changes the point.

i think it's because cena is the wwe's white knight so they WANT him over punk to keep the strong child audience existent. if they had kept punk's momentum, then he would have been the biggest guy, but he's also to difficult to control, as opposed to cena, who is the wwe's good little money maker.

I don't think so. WWE always goes with what makes them money. They would never intentionally sabotage a guy's run if they thought it would make them money.

They bent over backwards for CM Punk. When (according to Punk himself) his new contract wasn't even signed until that night in Chicago, they allowed him to cut vicious promos against Vince (the company's owner), Cena (the company's representative), Triple H (one of the most protected guys I know of), and The Rock (the returning legend who was primed to make WWE huge amounts of money). No one else got those privileges. Punk got to drag up Triple H's backstage past with the Kliq. He got to come out and say, in so many words, that "WWE sucks and it's time for a change". And then he got to beat Cena twice. And then he held the title for 434 days. If they really didn't want Punk at the top, they would not have allowed him to do all of that.

If WWE still didn't have faith in Punk to make more money than Cena despite all of that, that's not WWE's doing. Either Punk wasn't making that much money, or Cena was still making more.

basically, punk can wrestle, do promos, and be entertaining better than cena

But if Cena entertains more people than Punk, draws an audience into the stories he tells in the ring, and gets greater reactions than Punk on the mic, then how could Punk possibly be better?

[Laser Shuckle]

Should've known better than to ask for another wall of text from you...

But they're only "consistently pushed" because of how good they are.

Was Sheamus pushed for his first title run because of how good he is over the rest of the roster? what about Ryback's big push? he barely gets any reaction most of the time (take this week's Raw, in his hometown no less) granted the consistency is questionable, but still. Since when did that become an absolute in wrestling?

Do you think John Cena would be around at the top as long as he is if he weren't the best? No, of course not. He's where he is because WWE realizes he's the best. Need to get someone - let's say Edge, RVD, or CM Punk - to that "next level"? Feud them with John Cena. Need to reintroduce The Rock and Brock Lesnar to the WWE? Feud them with John Cena before anyone else. He's the go-to answer for every problem WWE has because of how well he delivers.

Do you have some kind of WWE brand marketing booklet from where you're getting all this from? Yes I know, he's got the biggest audience. That doesn't make him the best. And I know you're gonna tell me that being popular does make him the best along with selling merchandise, blah blah and I will disagree with you there again because it happens to be subjective.

What's wrong with pandering to kids? They're Cena's chief demographic and are the ones making him as popular as he is. Hogan pandered to kids. The Rock panders to nostalgic Attitude Era fans. CM Punk panders to the IWC. Does that make any of them bad? No, it makes them good because only a terrible wrestler would alienate their fanbase.

Hogan pandered only to kids? this I did not know. The obvious problem I have with it is that's his chief demographic and he's supposed to be the face of the company. I don't get why you would want your best guy in a show where people essentially beat each other up to be catering to kids. But that's just me.

And selling merchandise is part of the "total package". In fact, making money and drawing fans to see you is the most important part of being a wrestler, because it's a sign of how entertaining you are (and professional wrestling is entertainment). What good is it for you to excel at anything else if no one wants to watch you do it? As far as the "total package", I've yet to see any area where Punk really tops Cena. Punk is good, but he's not better than Cena.

Serious? you think he's better in the ring and on the mic? What about his lame gear and theme song? To each his own I guess. I was hoping for more than just a by the book reading on how WWE operates.

As long as his fans (the younger demographic) loves to see Cena doing what he does, then it'd be stupid for him not to do it. The last time a popular act changed his gimmick with no one asking for it (Steve Austin), the results were terrible. "If it ain't broke", and all.

If all he wants to do is water himself down for the kids then more power to him. My issue is having someone like that who is only there for a certain audience headlining the show. Although it does make for good TV when they pair him up with someone on the opposite end like Punk or Rock.

The difference between what Cena's best known for (pandering to kids) and what Punk's best known for ("Pipebomb!") is that what Cena does doesn't rely on shocking an audience, which means that his act lasts longer.

Well that's nifty considering his act has been around longer. Of course when your target audience is kids you don't exactly have the same high expectations to meet.

I would argue this, but the quality of humor is way too subjective for me to get into. But Cena's jokes tend to amuse his audience. His act pisses some of us off, yes, but he's not interested in us, really.

So then how much sense really does it make to have him as their top guy?

I can't speak for you, but I do know that Cena's convinced more people in general to pay for him on pay-per-view (WrestleMania 28 & 27, One Night Stand 2006, Extreme Rules 2012, etc.) and tune in to see him on Raw than Punk has. The "lame jokes and predictable BS" work, and they've sold more than Punk's "pipebomb" shtick. Which would make him more convincing one by default.

That's hardly fair considering most of those events can be attributed to Rock and Lesnar as far as buyrates, and the comment you quoted still stands since he wasn't messing around as much as usual against those guys. And it's not just how many you convince, but who you convince.

Of course not. I loved the Rock vs. Punk feud, and was surprised with the chemistry the two of them had on the mic. They told a very enjoyable story in just the three weeks leading up to the Rumble. But that's part of what I'm saying here. Punk is only at his best when working with talent (Rock, Cena) who have a record of putting on excellent angles and selling shows successfully with a variety of different talent.

How exactly is that a knock on Punk? Those guys have been around for longer too. And it sounds like you might have missed this week's Raw because Rock vs Punk is still going even though it will probably get thrown under the bus quickly for Twice in a Lifetime.

That's exactly the reasoning. Punk's biggest feud was undisputedly with John Cena. And part of the reason for that was because of Cena. Meanwhile, if you had to ask what was Cena's biggest feud you'd have several different choices: The Rock, HHH, HBK, Batista, Edge, Lesnar, JBL, Punk, Umaga, RVD... the list goes on. And you could make a great case for most of them.

That's how good Cena is, and how far ahead of Punk he is.

So he's been around longer. Pretty much twice as long. Does that make the person who's been around the longest or has had the most memorable feuds the best? I imagine it's pretty easy to look down on the current talent like that when they haven't had the time or the chances seasoned guys like Cena have had.

At the end of the day, I'm still not sold on Cena. I don't care if half the U.S. was tuning in to the show and cheering him on or about his numerous accolades. I watch his segments and matches because they are almost always held above the rest of the roster; not because I like his character, his ability to kick out of multiple wrestler's finishers at once or watching him drop his fist a foot away from his opponent's head while the camera cuts to the other side of the ring.