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Thread: Is Leaf Canon?

  1. #1
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    Default Is Leaf Canon?

    In Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver -from what I've read- every reference to Generation III's FireRed and LeafGreen points to Red and not Leaf. I would have thought it would be appropriate for Leaf to be at Mt. Silver if the player is using Kotone but even if you are, it will always be Red. Unlike the other Pokémon games where even if you choose one trainer the other will still be in the story. In FR/LG if you choose Red, Leaf doesn't exist and vice versa. What do you think, was Leaf merely a fantasy in the Pokémon canon and timeline?

    Edit: GhostWriter brings up an interesting point. Is Kris even Canon anymore?
    Last edited by Chim-Charred!; 9th November 2009 at 5:25 AM.
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    probably. And also, because they had to keep up with the boy/girl option, but since you already had a rival in the original red/blue/green/yellow, he couldn't exactly be replaced snapity snap. Sooo... they just didn't include a character for the opposite gender in those games. :/ i hope i understood what you were saying correctly...


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    Leaf, canon? Doubt it. They just added her on the remakes for the heck of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ijea4444 View Post
    And of course I think Leaf should be a cannon, what else could I have been referring to.

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    No, she's not.
    As you said, unlike every other situation, Leaf is the only one who can't co-exist with her male counterpart.

    Red is the canon protagonist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiomasta View Post
    Leaf, canon? Doubt it. They just added her on the remakes for the heck of it.
    Do you honetly think that? Becuase GF thought, oh for the heck of it lets add a new character, design her, design a sprite of her, and put her in the game, for the heck of it.

    Its obvious it wasn't for the heck of it, but becuase they want the game to appeal to as much people as possible, including females.

    I'm mad that Leaf isn't considered cannon. Its a shame.

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    If they ever re-remake RGB, the other player character should have SOME sort of role. I mean, they gave him/her a role in HGSS.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ijea4444 View Post
    Its obvious it wasn't for the heck of it, but becuase they want the game to appeal to as much people as possible, including females.
    Granted, "for the heck of it" is a meaningless, arbitrary, subjective description, but did they add her because she brings something new to the gameplay? No. Did they add her because the game would truly be lacking without her? No. They added her because the earliest Sugimori art established the concept of a female Kanto trainer and because Crystal (the game) established the staple of a male and a female trainer for the gamer to select. It's not "for the heck of it," but it's certainly not as if they added her because history would never forgive them if they didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ijea4444 View Post
    I'm mad that Leaf isn't considered cannon. Its a shame.
    1. Canon. Cannon is something from which you fire large projectiles.
    2. A shame? Not really. It was a character being added to a template where she didn't exist originally. Did you want them to completely transform the Kanto template just to fit in a few meaningless off-screen activities for a poinless second character?



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    Heh, you always make me have to pull out my dictionary "arbitrary" huh. Anyway it is kind of unfortunate that Leaf isn't canon. She's pretty awesome for someone that doesn't exist.
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    Again, no. Is your Pokémon experience affected that severely because there's no canon in which a female character did the exact same things Red did while wearing a skirt? The point is true for all of the games in which there's a gender choice - it's not as if the game changes any with your choice of characters. The only difference is what character you play as and which only appears occasionally to give you news and items.



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    Quote Originally Posted by BCVM22 View Post
    Granted, "for the heck of it" is a meaningless, arbitrary, subjective description, but did they add her because she brings something new to the gameplay? No. Did they add her because the game would truly be lacking without her? No. They added her because the earliest Sugimori art established the concept of a female Kanto trainer and because Crystal (the game) established the staple of a male and a female trainer for the gamer to select. It's not "for the heck of it," but it's certainly not as if they added her because history would never forgive them if they didn't.



    1. Canon. Cannon is something from which you fire large projectiles.
    2. A shame? Not really. It was a character being added to a template where she didn't exist originally. Did you want them to completely transform the Kanto template just to fit in a few meaningless off-screen activities for a poinless second character?
    I think I misunderstood your post. But from what I understand your saying that I claimed that Leaf existed in FRLG because it would mess would history? I clearly said they added Leaf to appeal to a larger target audience. And it would be a great excuse to redo "Blue".

    And are you honestly complaining and analyzing an opinion wither I think that Leaf isn't in the game is a shame or not is not something that should be considered right or wrong to think, because it is just that an opinion. And of course I think Leaf should be a cannon, what else could I have been referring to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCVM22 View Post
    Again, no. Is your Pokémon experience affected that severely because there's no canon in which a female character did the exact same things Red did while wearing a skirt? The point is true for all of the games in which there's a gender choice - it's not as if the game changes any with your choice of characters. The only difference is what character you play as and which only appears occasionally to give you news and items.
    Well if you liked that character I could see how some people would be upset that she isn't canon. If Lucas wasn't canon I would be upset. Especially since there was a place for her to appear in HeartGold and SoulSiver and it wasn't used. Wouldn't you be upset if Metagross didn't really exist or matter to the Pokedex?
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    Originally posted by BCVM22
    2. A shame? Not really. It was a character being added to a template where she didn't exist originally. Did you want them to completely transform the Kanto template just to fit in a few meaningless off-screen activities for a poinless second character?
    I disagree; they seemed to integrate both Kotone and Gold into HGSS without "completely transforming" the original GS template - there were only minor alterations. I think they could have added Leaf into the storyline of FRLG quite easily without changing too much. They simply didn't think about it, or chose not to.

    "Canon" or not, she's still an awesome character. And there's always fanfiction/art
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Ghostwriter~ View Post
    I disagree; they seemed to integrate both Kotone and Gold into HGSS without "completely transforming" the original GS template - there were only minor alterations.
    Because the integration of a female option into the Johto template has its origins in Pokémon Crystal. It's a different situation entirely.



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    Red is part of the history in HGSS because it is a remake of GSC, which is a continuation to RBY, there you fight the "hero" of the first games that didn't had the option to play as a female.

    Leaf even with her charming design, never had a part in any story (outside her alter ego in the manga), she's practically Red if you want to play as a female in Fire Red/Leaf Green, she even has the same rival,if you pick her Red is not anywhere to be seen, like when you don't play as Brendan, Lucas or Gold, they still play a role in the story as your friend.
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    Leaf actually does look like a girl version of Red. They look so much alike it's as if they could be brother and sister, maybe even twins. Then again, it's kind of the same story for Lucas and Dawn yet they exist in the same story where they are defiantly not related. Still, kind of grosses me out when you think in terms of shipping but yeah just something interesting to note!
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    wasn't green (or leaf I guess) A character from the pokemon special manga?

    If so then she is canon.....kinda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajc2123 View Post
    wasn't green (or leaf I guess) A character from the pokemon special manga?

    If so then she is canon.....kinda.
    Green = Japanese name for the game version of Gary(also called Green in every language in Johto, was it?)

    Leaf = Girl playable character from FR/LG

    And the games and the manga are very different things, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ijea4444 View Post
    And of course I think Leaf should be a cannon, what else could I have been referring to.
    Hah, I'm quoting that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ijea4444 View Post
    And of course I think Leaf should be a cannon, what else could I have been referring to.

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    Now that you mentioned it, I wasn't aware that Leaf wasn't included in the game. I guess it's because HG/SS is sticking very close to the original when she wasn't created yet until FR/LG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chim-Charred! View Post
    Leaf actually does look like a girl version of Red. They look so much alike it's as if they could be brother and sister, maybe even twins.
    I suppose this isn't on-topic, but I really wished they had included the female character in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. They called the character they used "Pokemon Trainer" anyway, so it wasn't like they called him "Red". If they had allowed people to play as either male or female it still would have made sense under the name "Pokemon Trainer".

    I read an English manga once that featured a female trainer named Green. The main character was Red and his rival was a guy named Blue (anime fans recongnize him as Gary Oak). I believe she was called Green becuase the translators wanted it to parallel the games Red and Blue.

    Anyway, yeah, I think that if Leaf (if that really ought to be her name) ought to be considered canon in some way. I used her in LeafGreen, and I think there should have been both male and female characters from the beginning. It makes the games appeal to a broader audience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCVM22 View Post
    Because the integration of a female option into the Johto template has its origins in Pokémon Crystal. It's a different situation entirely.
    No it is not.

    Note that I said GS, not GSC (though perhaps I should have spelled it out to avoid confusion ^^; ). Crystal's boy/girl function was akin to FRLG: gamewise, Kris is Gold in female form; the only thing that changes in Crystal is the fact that the player is referred to as a "she". Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, on the other hand, took that innovation and added to it: the form not chosen becomes a friendly rival and plays a part in the story. HGSS takes a similar stance to these games - the form not chosen still co-exists with the player in the game, with only very minor changes to the original storyline.

    Brendan and Lucas are considered canon, and Kris - though she serves exactly the same function as Leaf - is also considered canon. My point was merely that, if they could integrate Kotone and Gold into the same game without difficulty or significant changes, it's not impossible to believe that they could have done the same with both Leaf and Red - and either didn't think about it, or chose not to.
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    Ok I tried editing this into my post and for some reason serebii didn't let me before.

    The reason why people are sad/mad that Leaf isn't in the games isn't because we feel that it lowers HGSS's game play or that HGSS had something missing.

    The reason why people are sad(at least me anyway =P) is because that fact that she wasn't in the game makes it seem (keyword:seem) as if Leaf was forgotten. And most of us who played as Leaf in FRLG had grown an emotional attachment to Leaf. And anyone with a heart would feel sad if someone they were close to(I wouldn't go that deep but you know what I mean) was forgotten.

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    not really she isn't canon though its a REAL big disappointment for BVCM22

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    Is Kris canon though? When they make these remakes, does that mean anything that happens in the original is not canon? I knind of think so but I want to hear other's opinions.

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  24. #24

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    By and large, the remakes seem to take the place of their forebearers in what passes for canon in the core titles.



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    Quote Originally Posted by BCVM22 View Post
    1. Canon. Cannon is something from which you fire large projectiles.
    Sigged. Anyways I think it was because Blue was already the main rival for the R/B/Y games and so they decided to keep it that way. I think that if they hadn't introduced the Boy/Girl selection in Crystal then HG/SS probably would've been the same way.
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