^Yeah, that's precisely what I'm talking about. I did find that very odd. I'm still working on it. I'm guessing libelldra isn't as reliable as we thought when it comes to Life Orb. You can check the calcs I did if you want. You can see that it does take 0.03% less damage according to the "multiply HP by defense" trick. I need to redo the other calcs by hand.
The reason I was "arguing" Shadow Ball vs. Shadow Ball was simply because it was pretty much an Outrage vs Outrage argument since effectively, all the damages are the same except for those two. However, precisely speaking, yours does take the hits better except for that bare minimum Shadow Ball and has better physical defensive potential at the cost of almost nothing for special defense. But you're right, I do realize it's irrelevant.
Hmm. That's a good idea actually. Go ahead and do that if you have time. We could put the Appendix in a linked-to post too.
Edit: Oh, I see. Silly sppf lag.
Last edited by Salavoir55; 24th November 2009 at 3:26 AM.
mine:
(+1 LO Mence Outrage vs [240]401 HP / [140]298 Def)
Raw damage: 171 185 201
Percentages: 42.64% 46.13% 50.12%
99.93% chance of survival in SR.
yours:
(+1 LO Mence Outrage vs [252]404 HP / [136]297 Def)
Raw damage: 171 186 202
Percentages: 42.33% 46.04% 50.00%
99.93% chance of survival in SR
mine:
(LO Gengar vs [240]401HP / [92]259 SDef)
Shadow Ball
Raw damage: 156 169 184
Percentages: 38.90% 42.14% 45.89%
yours:
(LO Gengar vs [252]404HP / [84]257 SDef)
Shadow Ball
Raw damage: 156 169 184
Percentages: 38.61% 41.83% 45.54%
mine:
(LO Gengar vs [240]401HP / [92]259 SDef)
Focus Blast
Raw damage: 155 168 183
Percentages: 38.65% 41.90% 45.64%
yours:
(LO Gengar vs [252]404HP / [84]257 SDef)
Focus Blast
Raw damage: 156 169 184
Percentages: 38.61% 41.83% 45.05%
an example section would be nice. and these calcs would be great for showing what calculations look like and possibly how they work.
other than that, its awesumum gonna help me a lot as soon as I get home I'm gonna 5 star it cuz this phone is hiding the rate-a-thread section of the website XP
Upcoming GOD of WiFi.
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I like rhys' idea of having an in-depth analysis of each step in the abridged EVing guide. I hope he continues.
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Ev's are the most customizable, intricate, and arguable subject of competitive battling. Fine tuning and studying your Ev builds for each Pokemon can mean the difference between a close win or an unfortunate loss. Mastering the aspects of Ev sets takes time, patience, and understanding. Those looking just to start or those looking to better their Ev sets might find this guide worth a read.
Each section previously mention is expanded upon here. Clicking HERE will take you back to the main abridged article.
(1)Getting Started: Purpose
1.)Think about what you want your Pokemon to do. Set a useful goal for the Pokemon first. Make sure it's possible to achieve through damage calculators such as Libelldra. Choose the nature you think you'll need at this stage.
As it's meant to be, this scratches the surface. The first step when designing an Ev set is to make sure you have something your Pokemon needs to do FOR your team. Your team is the reason you chose this specific Pokemon in the first place.
Throughout this process, I will be using a constant example. Seed Support Celebi is an interesting set and I have decided to use it as my main example, using Bibi as a nickname. The set is listed below and will be updated with each step.
When designing Ev's, each set needs to have a job they are accomplishing. You can include a Skarmory on your team to help with physical hitters but it won't help you unless you invest correctly. If you were to slap 4 HP/ 252 Attack/ 252 Speed on your physical wall it wouldn't be doing much defending would it? So the first step to creating an effective set is to look at your team and find what it needs to do. Find your set's job.
If you are not absolutely certain what needs to be taken care of, look at your team. Can you defeat the standard walls in your tier? Are offensive threats kept at bay? Is there a Pokemon who needs to be taken down quickly? What is your team's overall strategy? Once you can answer these questions you should have a good concept of what you need your Ev set to do. This would also be the point to make sure you have the right Pokemon for the job though you may find later you have chosen incorrectly. Use your best judgement and get opinions if need be.
~Apply~
With a good idea of what you want out of your set, now would be a good time to decide on the Nature and Ability for your set. Here is where you will find a quick list of the Natures and what each does and here is a compilation of each Ability in detail. Make sure you're not hindering any stats that you can potentially use; for example, using a Lonely nature on Salamence is conflicting with its Intimidate ability and thus would hinder it's usefulness.
Perhaps you are asking yourself, "Well, I know what stat I want to have a positive nature for, but which stat should I be least worried about?" If you are unsure which stat is of least importance on your set, ask yourself these three questions. What is my moveset tailored to? What will my set be defending against? What will I be switching into?
What is my movest tailored to? This is the quickest of the three. A good example of this is a standard Hippowdon physical wall set. The standard moveset is Earthquake / Roar / Stealth Rock / Slack Off. As you can see, there is no attack in the moveset which would utilise Hippowdon's Special Attack. And since it would be used for physical walling, the most effective nature for this kind of set would be Impish (+ Def, - Sp.A). There are also some moves that Speed affects in a positive or negative fashion, the best example being Gyro Ball on Pokemon such as Forretress or Bronzong. Gyro Ball's base power is increased the slower you are compared to your opponent, so Pokemon with this move in their set would most likely want to invest in a - Speed nature (accompanied by utilizing 0 Speed Iv's*). But perhaps you are invested in a set that utilizes both offensive stats and this question doesn't help answer yours. In that case, ask yourself these next two questions.
What will my set be defending against? When you first read this question, you might be inclined to assume you want to invest into the stat which best helps a set such as mix sweeping Infernape take hits from it's counters better. This is not the case. If something is being countered, it is best not to invest into a stat to better your chances taking them. If a set is being countered, you should have something else on your team to deal with it. For MixApe, some of the standard counters are Starmie, Vaporeon, Cresselia, and Latias whom all hit with a super effective Psychic or Water attacks on the special spectrum. Since Infernape would be taking prior damage from effects such as Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, and Life Orb recoil it is usually a poor choice to drop your Defense stat as opposed to your Special Defense. Since Infernape would be taking a OHKO anyways, there is very very little reason to keep its Special Defense undisturbed. Since Infernape's Defense can help it take hits from priority hits from the likes of Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario, most players see Naive as the most logical choice for a MixApe's nature. However there is one other aspect you should keep in mind before deciding on a nature for mix hitting sets.
What will I be switching into? This applies more to Pokemon with certain abilities, the best example being Salamence. Salamence's Intimidate drops the opponent's Attack stat 1 stage (66% upon switching in. Since many Salamence sets use both of its offensive stats, one defensive stat will have to be reduced. In just a majority of the cases, it would be more effective to work with Salamence's ability to help it switch in easier, especially when it has to deal with a Stealth Rock weakness. With a - Special Defense nature Salamence has an easier time switching into physical attacks like Close Combat and taking priority attacks from Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario during a sweep.
- - - - -
C - The team Bibi is on needs a way to partially cover Gyarados and a good switch into Breloom. A - Seeing as both these threats are physical, I can assume Bibi will need a + Defense nature. Looking at the moveset, I see it has no special moves. Therefore I can give Bibi an Impish (+ Defense / - Special Attack) Nature and move onto the next step.
2.)Find something important to outspeed. If your Pokemon is too slow or a wall like Cresselia, this is less important. It depends on your goal though. There's no point in putting speed on wallish Pokemon like resttalk Cresselia or Crocune since (a) it's useless to their purpose and (b) it will be useless nearly every time. They get more use by putting those EVs in defenses (including HP). Maximizing speed when the spare EVs are useless elsewhere is fine (e.g. CB Weavile).
Using your Pokemon's speed is one aspect that can be the difference between losing a close match and winning. Playing the ever changing speed tiers effectively is very important to every competitive battler.
~Consider~
Speed is obviously the stat which decides which Pokemon goes first. As previously stated, walls find this stat less useful since it would be more beneficial to invest into their defences right away. In Ev sets, Speed is carefully fine tuned to outrun what the set needs to score KO's against or stop. Frail sweepers enjoy a hefty Speed investment so they can score KO's without getting touched.
Certain moves can dictate who goes first. Make sure you have studied the priority table which you can find here and memorized the tiers (+5 through -6).
There are several speed tiers listed in the original post that should be studied so you have a good grasp of what threat commonly runs what Speed.
~Apply~
Outrunning - Having a higher Speed stat by 1 or more point is called outrunning. This will make sure that every attack you make within the same priority tier as your opponent will go first. This is extremely important advantage for fast sweepers to have over a lot of the metagame.
If you are designing a fast sweeper, make sure you outrun as much as you possibly can. This applies to sets such as Choice Specs Jolteon, Choice Scarf Heatran, or Lead Azelf. Simply maximizing Speed at 252 is not a bad choice for these kind of sets since they are designed to hit hard and hit fast. Speed tying everything in your speed tier and outrunning everything below is a good choice on most of these kinds of sets.
Mix sweepers are trickier to invest in. Pokemon who can hit hard on both sides, popular choices being Salamence and Infernape, will want to invest into both attacking stats and Speed. When designing a mixsweeper remember a lot of them dance around the base 100 Speed tier for a reason. The base 100 tier includes several powerful players in the OU metagame including Zapdos, Celebi, Jirachi, Salamence, and Flygon; all of which can potentially be taken down in a single hit from a mix sweeper. Make sure your speed investment is modest enough you can empower your other offensive stats as well.
Bulky sweepers use less speed than mix sweepers. Since the set is meant to take damage and keep tanking through opponents some investment is taken into defenses as well as offense. Pokemon like Metagross or Rotom-A have a decent enough Speed stat to work with but some sets don't need to invest into it so much as their defenses or HP. The best thing to do is to come back to this step after going through the other steps (most importantly steps 3 and 4) and see if there is something within reason to invest outrunning. A good example is the great standard defensive Rotom-A spread of 252 HP/ 168 Defense/ 88 Speed which alows it to nail Tyranitar with Will-O-Wisp or throw up a Reflect before speedier Tyranitar sets. If it's reasonable to invest in, go for it. Don't be afraid to ask a more experienced player about a point to hit if you are unsure since the lower speed tiers are bunched much closer together and end up being more difficult than the higher speed tiers to master.
Walls don't necessarily need the Speed stat to be invested in. If there is something close by which takes a very small investment and would help you against a very important threat it would be fine. 4 Speed Blissey is a key example. Most people think it's useless but many have said it has proven extremely helpful against the Tyraniboah set without hindering the set at all. Some speedier walls like Cresselia don't take much investment to help them deal with certain threats, such as a small investment to outrun Tyranitar and Suicune. Not investing any Speed in a wall almost always acceptable.
Speed Tying - In order to hold a speed tie, you and your opponent must have exactly the same Speed. There will then be a 50/50 chance of you or your opponent going first (if you lose the first speed tie, you won't always go second, you have a 50% chance every turn). Though this isn't exactly the best strategy it can help save games in certain situations.
This is basically exclusive to fast sweepers. If you cannot outrun something that you may have a chance against, tie it. This will give you a 50% chance as opposed to 0% if the situation arises. DON'T DEPEND ON A SPEED TIE. This is not the way to handle a threat to your team. If you rely on a speed tie to take down a threat such as Choice Scarf Flygon, get a more solid way to deal with it.
Underrunning - It may seem odd at first but this can be a crucial strategy. Did you know Pursuit only hits at half power if you U-Turn after you get hit as opposed to before? You can use certain predicted moves from your opponent to your advantage depending on what you do.
This is mostly for slower opponents and usually focused around Skarmory or Tyranitar. Since Skarmory's trademark Roost makes it temporarily weak to Fighting and Ground, why not take advantage of a situation as such? Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross can all manage to underrun Skarmory and with an ounce of prediction unload a surprise super effective hit. This is the trickiest of all the speed points to work with so make sure you are 100% sure it will work and/or talk to a more experienced player about your idea.
~Reconsider/Reapply~
Once you find a speed point to hit, you may notice your nature will not alow you to do so. If your nature would impede your attempts to reach this speed point make sure you change it now. Make sure you also take note of any Abilities which might be changing your Speed. Ninjask never needs to invest any Speed since it will outrun just about everything in the game after one turn of using Protect. Keep those Ev's to invest elsewhere.
Remember to keep your moveset in mind when you are deciding upon your speed. A bulky Starmie set doesn't necessarily need to outrun Latias if it only has Thunderbolt and Surf. Since it can't do much thanks to Dragon type you can reserve your Ev's for elsewhere and work on what is best for the set. If it carried Ice Beam, things might be different.
- - - - -
C - As I know I want to keep Bibi defensive. Looking at points of speed to hit, I see two options: Tyranitar and other Celebi. If I aim to outrun Jolly Tyranitar, which is commonly a Dragon Dance set with Crunch, I can U-Turn out of a potentially deadly STAB boosted SE hit. I also see my set is walled by Celebi and vice versa and U-Turn hits Celebi x4 SE. If I shoot to outrun defensive sets I can U-Turn out before it has a chance to hit Bibi with U-Turn. A - Looking at the speeds both of them run, not only is it a low investment but they are right next to one another. 40 Ev's will outrun both so I have decided to use it. R/R - My Nature and Ability do not affect my Speed so I don't have to worry about it.
Great guide, sala. I agree this should definitely be stickied, and will be particularly useful to me as I refresh my memory of compet. from my break of sorts.
Hey, this thread is exelent, and i dont want it to die, so im making it active again so that the new mod might see it and decides to stickie it, id like to do that, infract me if its wrong, but im sure im doing it for good reasons.,
Originally Posted by otaku-dono
I actually find people who don't like the tiering system don't fully understand it.
Hey nice. Unfortunately, I have a slow computer so I probably can't do all these things. I generally copy most EV spreads off smogon. This definitely deserves to be in the CRMT guide.
Start playing ubers, not OU. Serebii needs more ubers players!
Hey nice. Unfortunately, I have a slow computer so I probably can't do all these things. I generally copy most EV spreads off smogon. This definitely deserves to be in the CRMT guide.
You don't really need a computer to make an Ev spread. All you need is knowledge of what you want for your spread and then you can contruct it in your head though it is much easier to use a dmg calc.
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Sorry, busy with other stuff in life. Will get back to work on the indepth in due time.
btw, the Shoddy gods fixed U-Turn, so now Pursuit still hits as you switch, just letn' ya know as that Support Celebi running U-Turn has lost some usefulness.
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That's okay, Rhys. It looks like Shining Mew is giving us plenty of time anyways.... I'll use this post to respond to something else while simultaneously bumping the topic.
Originally Posted by CreepacisT
an example section would be nice. and these calcs would be great for showing what calculations look like and possibly how they work.
Glad you liked it! Anyways, there's no real way to do calculations. I did them the way I did because it communicated the information I wanted to convey in a decent manner while allowing me to be lazy. So long as it's obvious which number stands for what, you're fine. Also, calculations don't "work" anymore than a mathematical formula. That's all they are--numbers resulting from using a math formula. You put in information; you get out information.
If you were talking about the mechanics behind the formula, well, Smogon did that better already, so there's no need to put that in there. Thanks for the suggestion though!
The funny thing about everyone complaining about this not being stickied is that no one PMed me about it. My inbox has nothing in it about this thread.
The only reason I added myself to this forum is that it would have a moderator listed in case anyone needed to contact a mod about something in here. Thats it. As an admin, I mod all forums, so without that reason adding myself would be pointless because I could just mod in here anyway. I never claimed to be the main mod of this forum, or the one to "take care" of it. Basically, there is NO mod assigned to this forum and their wont be until the staff agrees on someone.
btw, the Shoddy gods fixed U-Turn, so now Pursuit still hits as you switch, just letn' ya know as that Support Celebi running U-Turn has lost some usefulness.
I am well aware of this. The focus of outrunning Tyranitar was to avoid Crunch, not Pursuit. Part 3 coming relitively soon.
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Why isn't this thread in the CRMT Guide Collection?
The guide still isn't complete yet. The abridged version that Salavior posted is complete, but the more detailed one that Rhys29 wanted to post isn't fully updated yet.
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Very nice guide. I don't usually try to calculate down as close as possible though.. I usually go a little over what I think I will need to account for possibly bad IV in a stat. IVs can make such a difference that calculating out too close makes me a little weary. It is perfect though if you are dealing with something like Shoddy battle. I don't mess with Shoddy though.
Yeah, making EV spreads for less than ideal IVs can be tricky. The basic principles are the same, but you are right in that you can't always be as calculating as you would like to be sometimes. However, there are methods of caluclating your IVs ahead of time as well as getting very good IVs, and since most EV spreads often end up with filler EVs, it is usually possible to compensate reasonably well. Glad you liked the guide!
Originally Posted by JRCxyz
Ironic?
Will Rhys keep updating the guide?
Yeah, I'm sure Rhys will. Anyway, sorry for waiting so long to reply, Shining Mew, and for not PMing you like I should have.
Last edited by Salavoir55; 23rd December 2009 at 9:02 PM.
Pokemon has no hold on me anymore. Honestly. I don't even think about competitive and all this stuff is already ingrained in me so I might as well get it out. Might as well give back to this forum since it was my birthplace you know? Hell I had forgotten HGSS was coming out for the longest time ^.^
Though I'm sure no one even reads these, enough waiting.
(3)Scoring The Kill
3.)Find something important to NHKO. OHKO, 2HKO, OHKO with SR, etc. Very important for sweepers, somewhat important for tanks, and less important for walls. It depends on your Pokemon's purpose. Maxing the offense of sweepers is fine. Stuff with awful offense generally ignore this step.
Ever since the introduction of Platinum, the whole metagame has taken a massive offensive turn. In order to counter and deal with certain threats effectively, having a sure fire way to take down a common opponent in an attack or two is vital to most teams. This is an essential factor to keep in mind for basically any set that has an attack which deals damage.
Do keep in mind this is far more important for offensive sets than defensive.
~Consider~
For sets designed to sweep an opponent's team, this is a very important step to focus on. This is the step where you decide what investment you will make on your offenses.
Odds are you will be doing several calculations to make sure you can score KO's on specific threats, so a handy damage calculator will be your best friend. Libelldra has a phenomenal damage calculator with easy user interface.
There are almost too many threats to invest into taking down, so for reference have a list of the top threats of your tier at hand. One of the best things you can do is constantly check, favorite, or memorize the top threats in the shoddy statistics provided by the dedicated DougJustDoug from Smogon. You can click here to find a list of all the tier stats for the months and past months if you're curious and looking for a history lesson or trends.
~Apply~
Here are two factors to include when sizing up the amount of damage your set will deal.
Entry Hazards – Check your team for the moves Stealth Rock and Spikes. These attacks are called ‘entry hazards’. They deal damage to opponents switching in, or entering combat. If a Pokemon in your lead spot has either one of these moves, there is a good chance that an opponent will be taking damage every time they switch. Keeping this in mind will help you ease into KO’s.
Easing into KO’s means you don’t have to assure dealing 100% damage to score a kill. A good example would be Ice Punch Lucario. One of Lucario’s best counters has been Zapdos since it can wall Lucario without too much of a hassle and score OHKO with Heat Wave. When Swords Dance, Ice Punch Lucario was first initially introduced to the metagame, it ran a Jolly set to outrun Zapdos and Salamence sets which were built to outrun Adamant Lucario. However a Jolly Lucario, after a Swords Dance as Zapdos switches in, can only manage 81% ~ 95% on the most defensive Zapdos set, which under normal circumstances would never score a KO. However Zapdos is weak to Rock type which means it takes a hefty 25% as it switches in. Even after a turn of Leftovers recovery, Jolly Lucario can score a OHKO with a +2 Ice Punch as long as Stealth Rock is down.
Make sure you always include entry hazards when showing your calculations as well. If you find you will score just as many KO’s with less investment into your attacking stats as long as you have entry hazards out with the set you currently have, don’t be afraid to shuffle some of the Ev’s around.
Weather Effects – Weather can drastically change how battles will play out and every good battler should be aware of what it can do to their team. The most common by far is Sandstorm thanks to Hippowdon and the popular Tyranitar’s Sand Stream ability. This is why most teams usually include a large amount of team members who are either Rock, Ground, or Steel, making them immune to Sandstorm damage.
The key component to keep in mind when dealing with Sandstorm is that it deals damage before end of turn items activate. If a Pokemon not immune to Sandstorm is down to 6.25% or less at the end of the turn, it will faint from the buffetting Sandstorm before Leftovers recovery could put it in the clear. Here is an example of how this would work.
An Adamant Tyranitar with a Life Orb with +1 Attack thanks to Dragon Dance is about to attack with Crunch while the opponent switches in a 252/252 HP/Def Cresselia, which switched into Stealth Rock (not the most likely situation but it’s just an example). Crunch from this Tyranitar would deal 366 – 432 damage (or 82.43% - 97.30%), not assuring a OHKO even with Stealth Rock damage included (82.43 + 12.5 = 95.93%: minimum damage). However before Cresselia can recover with Leftovers at the end of the turn, the Sandstorm will deal an additional 6.25%, scoring the OHKO (95.93 + 6.25 = 102.18%: minimum damage). If you have Sandstorm on your team, it may be a good idea to take this into account before finalizing your calculations.
Hail, the exclusive cousin to Sandstorm, has the same damage effect. The only difference is the types taking damage each turn: only Ice remains untouched. Luckily, Abomasnow, the only Pokemon family gifted with the ability Snow Warning, is a very uncommon sight. Only teams based around Hail should pay any attention to this affect. Hail does 6.25% as well and hits at the same time Sandstorm does, so KO’s can be eased into a bit more efficiently.
The two remaining weather effects, Sun and Rain, are both very similar to each other. Sun powers up Fire type moves by 1.5x and reduces Water attacks by 1.5x while Rain does the exact opposite. This gives both a large offensive and defensive boost to teams based around these effects and all calculations on these teams should include these weather effects.
~Reconsider/Reapply~
Make sure your offensive investment can work with your other previously set investments. If they clash, you may have to choose one over the other. If you are unsure which takes priority, check back to your purpose and if you still can't choose go to a more advanced player for advice.
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as soon as I get home I'm gonna 5 star it cuz this phone is hiding the rate-a-thread section of the website XP
Originally Posted by otaku-dono
gigigigigigigigigigigigigigas
upon switching in. Since many Salamence sets use both of its offensive stats, one defensive stat will have to be reduced. In just a majority of the cases, it would be more effective to work with Salamence's ability to help it switch in easier, especially when it has to deal with a Stealth Rock weakness. With a - Special Defense nature Salamence has an easier time switching into physical attacks like Close Combat and taking priority attacks from Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario during a sweep.
