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Thread: A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    73

    Default A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

    The Pokemon Value System is an attempt to give Pokemon a numerical value based upon their stats, type, and movepool in order to facilitate a unique, mixed Pokemon battling environment. This thread will continue discussions about the values and the equations used in the system.

    If you would like to playtest and need to find a battle, you can join the PVS Playtesters group:

    http://www.serebiiforums.com/group.php?groupid=2660

    For the most recent version of the PVS worksheet, click on the below link (with major thanks to zennyrpg for hosting):

    PVS SPREADSHEET (10/15/10)

    http://www.prinnysquad.net/pokemon/PVS_10_15_10.xlsx

    Below is the most current list of Pokemon and their associated Values for reference, listed alphabetically and by Value:

    POKEMON VALUE LIST (ALPHABETICAL) (09/22/10)

    Code:
    Abomasnow	     11	106	
    Abra	     6	61	
    Absol	     11	108
    Aerodactyl	19	192	
    Aggron	     15	146						
    Alakazam	     12	116
    Altaria	     14	141		
    Ambipom	     11	108
    Ampharos	7	75		
    Arbok	7	72				
    Arcanine	11	114	
    Ariados	5	53		
    Armaldo	8	76		
    Articuno	11	110
    Azelf	14	145
    Azumarill	8	80		
    Banette	8	78		
    Bastiodon	10	103		
    Beautifly	6	62
    Beedrill	7	73	
    Bellossom	7	67		
    Bibarel	11	106		
    Blastoise	10	101
    Blaziken	14	142
    Blissey	23	228		
    Breloom	11	112		
    Bronzong	15	155		
    Butterfree	6	60		
    Cacturne	10	102		
    Camerupt	8	85
    Carnivine	6	59		
    Castform	6	60		
    Celebi	19	191
    Chansey	19	194		
    Charizard	12	122		
    Chatot	11	105
    Cherrim	7	65		
    Chimecho	8	80		
    Claydol	12	120		
    Clefable	13	130		
    Cloyster	10	102				
    Corsola	7	73
    Cradily	11	107				
    Crawdaunt	10	103
    Cresselia	13	126		
    Crobat	17	175		
    Delcatty	7	69		
    Delibird	5	52		
    Dewgong	10	104				
    Dodrio	10	98		
    Donphan	8	77		
    Dragonite	17	167	
    Drapion	14	142		
    Drifblim	14	141		
    Dugtrio	9	90				
    Dunsparce	10	96		
    Dusknoir	8	79		
    Dustox	7	75		
    Electabuzz	9	90
    Electivire	11	115			
    Electrode	9	88		
    Empoleon	19	189
    Entei	13	127
    Espeon	11	110		
    Exeggutor	10	101
    Exploud	7	67
    Farfetch'd	7	68		
    Fearow	11	110		
    Feraligatr	10	101		
    Flareon	9	85
    Floatzel	12	117
    Flygon	18	179
    Forretress	14	136
    Froslass	15	151
    Furret	7	75				
    Gallade	14	143
    Gardevoir	10	103		
    Gastrodon	11	108		
    Gengar	17	165		
    Girafarig	10	97		
    Glaceon	8	80
    Glalie	8	83		
    Gligar	13	128		
    Gliscor	17	168		
    Golduck	11	110		
    Golem	10	97		
    Gorebyss	7	72
    Granbull	7	73					
    Grumpig	10	100		
    Gyarados	13	127		
    Hariyama	9	91		
    Heatran	24	244
    Heracross	10	101				
    Hippowdon	12	125
    Hitmonchan	7	72		
    Hitmonlee	8	78				
    Hitmontop	7	74
    Honchkrow	13	133		
    Houndoom	15	145		
    Huntail	7	70		
    Hypno	8	83		
    Illumise	10	98
    Infernape	21	209
    Ivysaur	6	61		
    Jirachi	26	265
    Jolteon	12	120
    Jumpluff	10	101		
    Jynx	13	132						
    Kabutops	15	148				
    Kangaskhan	10	97
    Kecleon	7	67		
    Kingdra	15	152
    Kingler	8	80		
    Kricketune 4	40			
    Lanturn	14	136		
    Lapras	13	129	
    Leafeon	9	92		
    Ledian	6	62	
    Lickilicky	9	91		
    Linoone	8	77		
    Lopunny	10	97		
    Lucario	18	183		
    Ludicolo	12	118		
    Lumineon	10	103
    Lunatone	12	125
    Luvdisc	6	64		
    Luxray	8	83		
    Machamp	9	87		
    Magcargo	6	59		
    Magmortar	10	104		
    Magneton	12	117		
    Magnezone	15	151		
    Mamoswine	15	150		
    Manectric	8	84		
    Mantine	10	104		
    Marowak	7	67		
    Masquerain	6	62		
    Mawile	9	92
    Medicham	12	123		
    Meganium	8	77		
    Mesprit	12	120
    Metagross	19	187				
    Mightyena	8	81		
    Milotic	12	116
    Miltank	13	126		
    Minun	7	68		
    Mismagius	12	124
    Moltres	11	111		
    Mothim	7	66		
    Mr. Mime	8	81		
    Muk	8	85		
    Nidoking	13	130		
    Nidoqueen	13	130				
    Ninetales	10	103
    Ninjask	16	156
    Noctowl	10	102		
    Octillery	8	78				
    Omastar	12	123		
    Pachirisu	7	74				
    Parasect	4	41		
    Pelipper	9	91		
    Persian	10	96		
    Phione	10	103
    Pichu	3	33		
    Pidgeot	11	114		
    Pikachu	7	71				
    Pinsir	6	55		
    Plusle	7	68		
    Politoed	10	105		
    Poliwrath	14	138		
    Porygon2 8	81
    Porygon-Z	10	104				
    Primeape	9	90		
    Probopass	12	121				
    Purugly	9	86		
    Quagsire 10	103				
    Qwilfish	13	126
    Raichu	9	87
    Raikou	12	121		
    Rampardos	10	103
    Rapidash	11	106		
    Raticate	7	72		
    Regice	7	69
    Regigigas	9	85
    Regirock	10	98
    Registeel	18	184
    Relicanth	12	123		
    Rhyperior	13	126		
    Roserade	11	109		
    Rotom	11	109
    Rotom (Fan)	12	124
    Rotom (Frost)	13	125
    Rotom (Heat)	12	122
    Rotom (Mow)	12	122
    Rotom (Wash)	12	124
    Sableye	10	101				
    Sandslash	8	81
    Sceptile	10	104		
    Scizor	16	160		
    Scyther	9	92		
    Seaking	8	82		
    Seviper	7	69
    Sharpedo	16	156
    Shaymin (Land)	11	111		
    Shedinja	6	58		
    Shiftry	13	132		
    Shuckle	2	21		
    Skarmory	18	183	
    Skuntank	12	122		
    Slaking	10	99		
    Slowbro	9	93		
    Smeargle	15	148		
    Snorlax	11	109		
    Solrock	12	121		
    Spinda	6	60		
    Spiritomb	10	95		
    Stantler	8	83
    Staraptor	14	143		
    Starmie	15	150		
    Steelix	14	144		
    Sudowoodo	5	48		
    Suicune	13	125
    Sunflora	4	44		
    Swalot	9	85		
    Swampert	14	139
    Swellow	12	122		
    Tangrowth	9	88		
    Tauros	7	74		
    Tentacruel	14	141		
    Togekiss	16	162		
    Torkoal	5	58
    Torterra	10	103		
    Toxicroak	12	122		
    Tropius	9	86		
    Typhlosion	11	105
    Tyranitar	20	203		
    Umbreon	12	117
    Unown	2	17
    Ursaring	7	72		
    Uxie	14	137
    Vaporeon	12	124		
    Venomoth	14	143		
    Venusaur	9	89
    Vespiquen	5	53		
    Victreebel	8	82		
    Vileplume	8	75		
    Volbeat	8	76				
    Wailord	10	96
    Walrein	11	114				
    Weavile	17	173	
    Weezing	7	68
    Whiscash	11	114		
    Wigglytuff	11	109	
    Wormadam (P)	4	44
    Wormadam (S)	6	55
    Wormadam (T)	10	99
    Wurmple	1	7		
    Xatu	14	139		
    Yanmega	15	148
    Zangoose	9	88
    Zapdos	17	169
    Below is the most current list of Pokemon and their associated Values for references, listed from highest to lowest:

    POKEMON VALUE LIST (VALUE) (09/22/10)

    Code:
    Jirachi	26	265
    Heatran	24	244
    Blissey	23	228
    Infernape	21	209
    Tyranitar	20	203
    Chansey	19	194
    Aerodactyl	19	192
    Celebi	19	191
    Empoleon	19	189
    Metagross	19	187
    Registeel	18	184
    Lucario	18	183
    Skarmory	18	183
    Flygon	18	179
    Crobat	17	175
    Weavile	17	173
    Zapdos	17	169
    Gliscor	17	168
    Dragonite	17	167
    Gengar	17	165
    Togekiss	16	162
    Scizor	16	160
    Ninjask	16	156
    Sharpedo	16	156
    Bronzong	15	155
    Kingdra	15	152
    Froslass	15	151
    Magnezone	15	151
    Mamoswine	15	150
    Starmie	15	150
    Kabutops	15	148
    Smeargle	15	148
    Yanmega	15	148
    Aggron	15	146
    Houndoom	15	145
    Azelf	14	145
    Steelix	14	144
    Gallade	14	143
    Staraptor14	143
    Venomoth	14	143
    Blaziken	14	142
    Drapion	14	142
    Altaria	14	141
    Drifblim	14	141
    Tentacruel	14	141
    Swampert	14	139
    Xatu	14	139
    Poliwrath	14	138
    Uxie	14	137
    Forretress	14	136
    Lanturn	14	136
    Honchkrow	13	133
    Jynx	13	132
    Shiftry	13	132
    Clefable	13	130
    Nidoking	13	130
    Nidoqueen	13	130
    Lapras	13	129
    Gligar	13	128
    Entei	13	127
    Gyarados	13	127
    Cresselia	13	126
    Miltank	13	126
    Qwilfish	13	126
    Rhyperior	13	126
    Rotom (Frost)	13	125
    Suicune	13	125
    Hippowdon	12	125
    Lunatone	12	125
    Mismagius	12	124
    Rotom (Fan)	12	124
    Rotom (Wash)	12	124
    Vaporeon	12	124
    Medicham	12	123
    Omastar	12	123
    Relicanth	12	123
    Charizard	12	122
    Rotom (Heat)	12	122
    Rotom (Mow)	12	122
    Skuntank	12	122
    Swellow	12	122
    Toxicroak	12	122
    Probopass	12	121
    Raikou	12	121
    Solrock	12	121
    Claydol	12	120
    Jolteon	12	120
    Mesprit	12	120
    Ludicolo	12	118
    Floatzel	12	117
    Magneton	12	117
    Umbreon	12	117
    Alakazam	12	116
    Milotic	12	116
    Electivire	11	115
    Arcanine	11	114
    Pidgeot	11	114
    Walrein	11	114
    Whiscash	11	114
    Breloom	11	112
    Moltres	11	111
    Shaymin (Land)	11	111
    Articuno	11	110
    Espeon	11	110
    Fearow	11	110
    Golduck	11	110
    Roserade	Nat11	109
    Rotom	11	109
    Snorlax	11	109
    Wigglytuff	11	109
    Absol	11	108
    Ambipom	11	108
    Gastrodon	11	108
    Cradily	11	107
    Abomasnow	11	106
    Bibarel	11	106
    Rapidash	11	106
    Chatot	11	105
    Typhlosion	11	105
    Politoed	10	105
    Dewgong	10	104
    Magmortar	10	104
    Mantine	10	104
    Porygon-Z	10	104
    Sceptile	10	104
    Bastiodon	10	103
    Crawdaunt	10	103
    Gardevoir	10	103
    Lumineon	10	103
    Ninetales	10	103
    Phione	10	103
    Quagsire	10	103
    Rampardos	10	103
    Torterra	10	103
    Cacturne	10	102
    Cloyster	10	102
    Noctowl	10	102
    Blastoise	10	101
    Exeggutor	10	101
    Feraligatr	10	101
    Heracross	10	101
    Jumpluff	10	101
    Sableye	10	101
    Grumpig	10	100
    Slaking	10	99
    Wormadam (T)	10	99
    Dodrio	10	98
    Illumise	10	98
    Regirock	10	98
    Girafarig	10	97
    Golem	10	97
    Kangaskhan	10	97
    Lopunny	10	97
    Dunsparce	10	96
    Persian	10	96
    Wailord	10	96
    Spiritomb	10	95
    Slowbro	9	93
    Leafeon	9	92
    Mawile	9	92
    Scyther	9	92
    Hariyama	9	91
    Lickilicky	9	91
    Pelipper	9	91
    Dugtrio	9	90
    Electabuzz	9	90
    Primeape	9	90
    Venusaur	9	89
    Electrode	9	88
    Tangrowth	9	88
    Zangoose	9	88
    Machamp	9	87
    Raichu	9	87
    Purugly	9	86
    Tropius	9	86
    Flareon	9	85
    Regigigas	9	85
    Swalot	9	85
    Camerupt	8	85
    Muk	8	85
    Manectric	8	84
    Glalie	8	83
    Hypno	8	83
    Luxray	8	83
    Stantler	8	83
    Seaking	8	82
    Victreebel	8	82
    Mightyena	8	81
    Mr. Mime	8	81
    Porygon2	8	81
    Sandslash	8	81
    Azumarill	8	80
    Chimecho	8	80
    Glaceon	8	80
    Kingler	8	80
    Dusknoir	8	79
    Banette	8	78
    Hitmonlee	8	78
    Octillery	8	78
    Donphan	8	77
    Linoone	8	77
    Meganium	8	77
    Armaldo	8	76
    Volbeat	8	76
    Vileplume	8	75
    Ampharos	7	75
    Dustox	7	75
    Furret	7	75
    Hitmontop	7	74
    Pachirisu	7	74
    Tauros	7	74
    Beedrill	7	73
    Corsola	7	73
    Granbull	7	73
    Arbok	7	72
    Gorebyss	7	72
    Hitmonchan	7	72
    Raticate	7	72
    Ursaring	7	72
    Pikachu	7	71
    Huntail	7	70
    Delcatty	7	69
    Regice	7	69
    Seviper	7	69
    Farfetch'd	7	68
    Minun	7	68
    Plusle	7	68
    Weezing	7	68
    Bellossom	7	67
    Exploud	7	67
    Kecleon	7	67
    Marowak	7	67
    Mothim	7	66
    Cherrim	7	65
    Luvdisc	6	64
    Beautifly	6	62
    Ledian	6	62
    Masquerain	6	62
    Abra	6	61
    Ivysaur	6	61
    Butterfree	6	60
    Castform	6	60
    Spinda	6	60
    Carnivine	6	59
    Magcargo	6	59
    Shedinja	6	58
    Pinsir	6	55
    Wormadam (S)	6	55
    Ariados	5	53
    Vespiquen	5	53
    Delibird	5	52
    Torkoal	5	48
    Sudowoodo	5	48
    Sunflora	4	44
    Wormadam (P)	4	44
    Parasect	4	41
    Kricketune	4	40
    Pichu	3	33
    Shuckle	2	21
    Unown	2	17
    Wurmple	1	7
    My traveling team:

    Svetovid Ptarmigan Plesios Tusk Bandit Juicer

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -C.S. Lewis

  2. #2
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    Jan 2008
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    The reason Smogon's tiers and clauses are so widely adopted by nearly every major online Pokemon community with a battling section isn't because Smogon is forcing it's thoughts on others. But because they are the only major site out there that is exclusively dedicated to battling and have done extensive testing and research into the games. People love to whine and moan about Smogon is blah blah blah blah, but so few people actually want to put the effort that the members of Smogon have. It also helps that Smogon is an established web site so that if one admin or member has to take care of real life stuff, there are many others to pick up the slack. But on a smaller site, if one of 16 has to take time off, that can heavily delay any research or testing they are doing.

    There are a number of smaller sites who may have made their own rules up, but they are few and far between, and aren't well known.

    As to your idea, no one system of testing is perfect. But so many get dangerously close into "theory-mon". whereas people talk about the differences in stats and stuff but don't bother testing it out. Flareon has great base attack but lacks a strong STAB or even a decent physical movepool, so basing stuff off of base stats makes Flareon look a lot better than it actually is.

    On another note, I believe Japan's fan made metagame has some type of base-stat total rule. I'll see if I can dig up a link.
    I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    The reason Smogon's tiers and clauses are so widely adopted by nearly every major online Pokemon community with a battling section isn't because Smogon is forcing it's thoughts on others. But because they are the only major site out there that is exclusively dedicated to battling and have done extensive testing and research into the games. People love to whine and moan about Smogon is blah blah blah blah, but so few people actually want to put the effort that the members of Smogon have. It also helps that Smogon is an established web site so that if one admin or member has to take care of real life stuff, there are many others to pick up the slack. But on a smaller site, if one of 16 has to take time off, that can heavily delay any research or testing they are doing.

    There are a number of smaller sites who may have made their own rules up, but they are few and far between, and aren't well known.

    As to your idea, no one system of testing is perfect. But so many get dangerously close into "theory-mon". whereas people talk about the differences in stats and stuff but don't bother testing it out. Flareon has great base attack but lacks a strong STAB or even a decent physical movepool, so basing stuff off of base stats makes Flareon look a lot better than it actually is.

    On another note, I believe Japan's fan made metagame has some type of base-stat total rule. I'll see if I can dig up a link.
    I'm not trying to knock Smogon. It is a pretty great system to make sure everyone is on the same page. But, I just think there are just unfortunate side effects in regards to choice limitation and a sense of strategy in regards to intrateam balance. I greatly appreciate their dedication, but just because they are the only game in town doesn't mean we can't inject some fresh ideas.

    Good info there, too. I was using stat points as a base just to get a conversation going. But, I think with a little bit of manipulation can make it work. The key is just to get an accurate comparative value to really gauge the worth of the invidividual pokemon. Base stats probably don't work as well because there is little difference as you go up the scale. The trick is to find a way to make the gaps larger to more accurately reflect the difference. I think that's possible by modifying the base stat to reflect typing and, for attack, STAB. So, a flying/bug might have the same defensive base stat as a water type, but the flying/bug's defensive value will be greaty reduced because of it's typing.

    It's still a thought in progress, but I want to try a few things out and see if I can make a bigger comparative gap than just base stats. I'm more than willing to do some testing as well. But, we'll see. I just think there has to be a way to increase variety and lead to more interesting battle scenarios. An equal playing field can be 6 vs. 2 as well as 6 vs. 6 depeding on who you pick, for example.
    My traveling team:

    Svetovid Ptarmigan Plesios Tusk Bandit Juicer

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -C.S. Lewis

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
    I'm not trying to knock Smogon. It is a pretty great system to make sure everyone is on the same page. But, I just think there are just unfortunate side effects in regards to choice limitation and a sense of strategy in regards to intrateam balance. I greatly appreciate their dedication, but just because they are the only game in town doesn't mean we can't inject some fresh ideas.

    Good info there, too. I was using stat points as a base just to get a conversation going. But, I think with a little bit of manipulation can make it work. The key is just to get an accurate comparative value to really gauge the worth of the invidividual pokemon. Base stats probably don't work as well because there is little difference as you go up the scale. The trick is to find a way to make the gaps larger to more accurately reflect the difference. I think that's possible by modifying the base stat to reflect typing and, for attack, STAB. So, a flying/bug might have the same defensive base stat as a water type, but the flying/bug's defensive value will be greaty reduced because of it's typing.

    It's still a thought in progress, but I want to try a few things out and see if I can make a bigger comparative gap than just base stats. I'm more than willing to do some testing as well. But, we'll see. I just think there has to be a way to increase variety and lead to more interesting battle scenarios. An equal playing field can be 6 vs. 2 as well as 6 vs. 6 depeding on who you pick, for example.
    I'm not saying you are trying to knock them, but that's where the mentality comes from. Basically the anti-establishment mentality. They seem to criticize it because it's from a popular website. You can find similar complaints against other Pokemon sites such as Serebii, Marriland, and so on.
    I'm part of the staff at Project Pokemon! Smod in forums, AOP in IRC, Administrator on Shoddy. Come visit us. Our Project is Pokemon!

  5. #5
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    Clever idea, but it seems weird. I don't know why it just does. Maybe you need to make your ideas a little better, because of moves and types instead of just base states.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomspot555 View Post
    I'm not saying you are trying to knock them, but that's where the mentality comes from. Basically the anti-establishment mentality. They seem to criticize it because it's from a popular website. You can find similar complaints against other Pokemon sites such as Serebii, Marriland, and so on.
    Gotcha. Like I said, not trying to replace the system. Just make another one. It would just create a completely different type of game.
    My traveling team:

    Svetovid Ptarmigan Plesios Tusk Bandit Juicer

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -C.S. Lewis

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raichu_is_awesome View Post
    Clever idea, but it seems weird. I don't know why it just does. Maybe you need to make your ideas a little better, because of moves and types instead of just base states.
    I'm trying to work that out now. I'll keep everyone posted if come across anything that better differentiates pokemon statwise other than base stats.
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    Under your system Wobbuffet is worth less than Chatot.
    Groudon + Ho-oh + Wobbuffet + Forretress + Scizor + Shedinja = 670 + 680 + 405 + 465+ 500 + 236 = 2956. Good luck beating that with your team of NU's.

    Smogon is the most objective tier list available. It is mostly based on usage with the banlists based on long testing and the opinion of dozens of the best battlers on Shoddy. It is the standard tier list for a reason.

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    Ok, I think I've modified the system enough to use as an example. Taking the base stats, type, and STAB movepool I think you can get decent spacing and better value associated with each pokemon.

    Since Flareon is a prime example of good stats and poor movepool, I will use him and a comparable pokemon stat wise, Ursaring, as well as an Uber, Kyogre. Base stat wise, Flareon is actually better than Ursaring (525 vs. 500), but follow where I'm going here.

    To more accurately quantify attack, I made a formula that includes Base stat, the most powerful STAB attack available, and a modifier based on the type. I made the modifier by weighting the super effective attacks and resistance and figuring in normal effectiveness as a ratio as follows:

    [((2 x # of super effective) + # of regular effect) / (2 x # of resist)]

    So, Fire type, for instance, would have an attack effectiveness modifier of 2.13:

    [((2 x 4) + 9) / (2 x 4)] = [(8 + 9) / 8] = 2.13

    This represents Fire's general effectiveness from neutral and above compared to what resists it.

    I did Defense the same way, except resistance was switched with super effective.

    Anyway, I did the following calculations to generate the numbers needed:

    Atk/SpAtk = (Base State + Highest STAB) x Modifier = Atk/SpAtk Modifier
    Def/SpDef = Base Stat x Modifier = Def/SpDef Modifier

    For Speed and HP, I just did a ratio of the base stat to the highest currently availabe in Pokemon:

    HP = Base Stat / 255 = HP Modifier
    SPeed = Base Stat / 180 = Speed Modifier

    So, to get a final value, this is the calculation:

    Value = (Atk Mod + Def Mod + SpAtk Mod + SpDef Mod) x (HP Mod + Speed Mod) / 100

    This is what you come up with:

    Flareon

    Atk: (130 + 65) x 2.13 = 415.35
    SpAtk: (95 + 95) x 2.13 = 404.7
    Def: 60 x 3.17 = 190.2
    SpDef: 110 x 3.17 = 348.7
    HP: 65 / 255 = 0.25
    Speed: 65 / 180 = 0.36
    TOTAL = 828.9595
    VALUE = 8

    Ursaring (I excluded Giga Impact and Hyper Beam)

    Atk: (130 + 102) x 2.33 = 540.56
    SpAtk: (75 + 60) x 2.33 = 314.55
    Def: 75 x 8.5 = 637.5
    SpDef: 75 x 8.5 = 637.5
    HP: 90 / 255 = 0.35
    Speed: 55 / 180 = 0.31
    TOTAL = 1,405.8726
    VALUE = 14

    Kyogre

    Atk: (100 + 90) x 2.83 = 537.7
    SpAtk: (150 + 150) x 2.83 = 849
    Def: 90 x 4.75 = 427.5
    SpDef: 140 x 4.75 = 665
    HP: 100 / 255 = 0.39
    Speed: 90 / 180 = 0.5
    TOTAL: 2206.448
    VALUE: 22

    So, Flareon is outclassed by Urasring a great deal based upon movepool and typing. Ursaring can switch into a great deal more effectively because it take at least neutral damage against all attacks and has better attack values when type effectiveness and movepool is taken into account. Kyogre, as an Uber, stands out even further than that.

    Anyway, like I said, this is just a thought. But the purpose of this kind of thing is to stop taking pokemon into account as always a forced 1:1 system, but rather add some flexibility (like you can take that Ursaring, but I can take two Flareon like pokemon instead or take a tougher one at the expense of making another weaker).

    In the end, JUST A THOUGHT Obviously needs more looking into. Just didn't know if it sounded plausible or useful.
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    Uh, It would still Invoke the same problem that was there before tiers were made. Everyone would still use the same few pokes over and over. For example, Infernape has a BST of 534 while Blaziken has a BST of 530. People would use Infernape a large amount while blaziken would have no usage because, you could pick a better poke for a measly 4 points more. While with the current tier lists, A wider variety of pokes can be used in each usage tier. Where Blaziken is acutally used more in UU than Infernape in OU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokoya View Post
    Uh, It would still Invoke the same problem that was there before tiers were made. Everyone would still use the same few pokes over and over. For example, Infernape has a BST of 534 while Blaziken has a BST of 530. People would use Infernape a large amount while blaziken would have no usage because, you could pick a better poke for a measly 4 points more. While with the current tier lists, A wider variety of pokes can be used in each usage tier. Where Blaziken is acutally used more in UU than Infernape in OU.
    Actually that was what my first crack at some kind of formula set out to avoid. Flareon actually has higher base stats than Ursaring, but using a formula where move pool and type are taken into account (both offensively and defensively) yields a different story entirely where Ursaring has a value almost twice as high as Flareon.

    Then, the second step is to have players establish the total value for any battle they want. If they want to use a total value of, say, 75, it would either limit the usage of more powerful pokemon or allow it at the detrement of the rest of the team.

    The thing I've always wanted to avoid is the mentality of "I have to take the strongest because my opponent is going to anyway." That leaves everything in the dust and can often times reduce battling a great deal in terms of variety. You might see a Xatu instead of a Jirachi for Wish support, for instance, because there wasn't enough points for Jirachi. Or, like you said, a Blaziken instead of an Infernape to save points for another pokemon.

    Like I said, it was just a STAB at making a different kind of system to spice up the variety and create a completely different strategical environment.
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    Uh, It would still Invoke the same problem that was there before tiers were made. Everyone would still use the same few pokes over and over. For example, Infernape has a BST of 534 while Blaziken has a BST of 530. People would use Infernape a large amount while blaziken would have no usage because, you could pick a better poke for a measly 4 points more. While with the current tier lists, A wider variety of pokes can be used in each usage tier. Where Blaziken is acutally used more in UU than Infernape in OU.

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    love the idea, just needs a little more thought is all, about movesets, types and such.

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    I for one support the idea and any research towards a more varied metagame. Without naming names, it is apparent that some people aren't prepared to accept something new and different and are making excuses that aren't even plausible in order to justify their inside-the-box-type minds. I fully understand the concept, the formulae and the benefits of your metagame my friend and I genuinely believe it can work! I think you deserve a lot of credit for stepping up and putting your idea out on a forum like this as it's not a waste of time and I must say, I am glad that I read that first post.

    Keep up the good work, I will be subscribing to this thread and if there's any way that I can help move this forward, just give me a shout!

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    First, thank you for not knocking Smogon tiers . So many people have an axe to grind for no good reason. Second, this system seems effective, honestly, I'm not 100% sure I understand the formula, but I get the general idea. It really has potential, I'd like to see this happen. Who, knows, the odds are really slim but it could catch on. At least, you could start a thread with these custom rules in the battle forum and see if people enjoy it.
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    Heh, that's a pretty nice idea.
    I was *slightly* skeptical about it at first, but I thought it could be fixed with a simple formula.
    Did you go simple? No, you went on to make it one of the best ideas I've ever heard. It's a nice formula, and takes a lot into account. I myself used to do battles kinda like this against myself or my sisters, with one battler using one or two legends, and the other using a full team of 'Normal' pokemon.
    Also, since it has a concrete formula behind it, every time new moves are introduced, or a pokemon gains access to old moves it previously couldn't use, you simply plug everything back in again and come out with a new total.
    For the Flareon, Ursaring, and Kyogre example, the totals that were pumped out made a lot of sense. And it's a good thing you exclude Hyper Beam and Giga Impact from the normal-type scores.

    Personally, I can't wait to start using this system. I'm OK with Smogon, but this allows me to pit my favorite pokemon (Often UnderUsed) against Ubers, knowing we both have a even chance of winning.

    I'm off to plug a whole load of numbers into that formula, and calculate the values for all my five pokemon. Can't wait ^_^


    Oh, before I go, one thing you might want to clarify. Rotom's forms. How would they be handled? Maybe, instead of using their strongest Ghost or Electric attack (I think that would be Thunder), plug their special forme-specific attack into the formula?

    PS: I see a lot of the recent posters havn't seen the formula. You may want to edit it into your first post.
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    I'm a pretty hardcore competitive battler (made it to the World Championships in '09). When I first got into competitive pokemon, I looked at the metagame the same way you are now. I figured that a pokes base stats are what makes it better or worse than another pokemon. I quickly learned that while they are important in deciding a pokemon's value, they only comprise maybe part of it's worth. The rest is made up of: movepool, ability, team synergy, typing, etc...

    While the tiering system you are describing does a good job of comparing base stats and all, it doesn't really show how "strong" or "valuable" a pokemon is. As much as I disagree with it, the smogon "Suspect Test Vote" takes base stats into consideration too, but only as a part of the whole.

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    ^Just a question... mattj, did you see the formula he came up with to make up for that?
    Yep, defenately needs to be put in the first post ;^_^
    "Open your mouth too wide, and your ears close."

    Do you wish you could do things like in the anime?
    Do you wish you could dodge behind a rock to avoid an attack?
    Do you wish that you could use the arena to stop your opponents cold?
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    Ok, fair warning, this post is going to be long. But, I want to dive in a little more to my intentions with this and where it could go. Plus a little more technical explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPowerX View Post
    First, thank you for not knocking Smogon tiers . So many people have an axe to grind for no good reason. Second, this system seems effective, honestly, I'm not 100% sure I understand the formula, but I get the general idea. It really has potential, I'd like to see this happen. Who, knows, the odds are really slim but it could catch on. At least, you could start a thread with these custom rules in the battle forum and see if people enjoy it.
    Oh, I don't want to knock Smogon at all. I like it a lot. It's a great resource and they have put a multitude of time and effort into it. They came up with a great, balanced system.

    What I wanted to do was simply make a "parallel" system that puts the emphasis on the few areas that Smogon is somewhat lacking or has the unintended consequences that came from the tiers, namely:

    1.) I wanted something more qualitative per individual pokemon. Smogon seems too quantitative based upon placing things in tiers based upon usage within the game as a whole. That's not a bad thing, just different.

    2.) I want more variety. Like I mentioned before, I'm a heavy player of Battletech. And, the theory behind the one form of combat, is that five little guys might be better than your one or two big guys. Smogon has a tendency (for whatever reason) to lean towards which player's six big guys can beat the other players six big guys.

    3.) I think this point based system can give players real, quantitative ways to measure their skill against other players. One of these Battletech forms of combat was heavily honor driven, where beating someone with underwhelming force brought more honor than crushing someone with overwhelming force. So, where a win/loss record can't tell the whole story, a comparison of Values in those matches can. A simple ratio of your Value vs. your opponent's Value can lead to a great ranking system. For instance, a player that wins with half the value of his opponent would have a ratio of 2, whereas a guy that wins with twice the value would have a ratio of 0.5. So, you see a guy with a record of 100 wins and 0 losses with an average win value ratio of 0.5 would immediately tell you he is only winning by crushing little guys. A guy closer to 2 would be the friggin' man.

    Anyway, I have to better test this formula and assign value to a bunch of pokemon to see if it works or if creates too many outliers before I put it up to a test. Also, I need to get a good formula for Attack stats for dual type pokemon.

    As for the formula itself, this is the most qualitative way I could come up with things. I'll try and describe it a little better:

    ATTACK AND SPECIAL ATTACK

    Someone brought Flareon up and it sparked the idea for this formula. Basically, the base stat doesn't tell the whole story. So, what I did was take the base stat and added the base power of the most powerful STAB attack to get the first number. The 65 base power of Fire Fang therefore drags Flareon's number down comparatively. The idea here is to get the most "damage" potential the pokemon has with his stat. It may need further review, because I'm not sure if some pokemon could do more damage with a non-STAB attack over a STAB attack based upon movepool or not. I just assume the movepools will most likely yield more damage with a STAB attack.

    The "modifier" I then used was an attempt to take type into account. The idea was to come up with a number that tells the story "If I switched into an opponent of random type, what would my damage potential be?" The way I did that was to just take a ratio of super effective and neutral attacks to resistant and immune attacks. I gave neutral attacks all a weight of 1 and everything else a weight of 2.

    So, fire, for instance, is super effective against 4 types, neutral against 9, and 4 types resist it. So, weighting the super effective and resistances by 2 gives 8's instead of 4's. Then, it's just comparing neutral and above damage to resisted damage, which gives us (8+9) / 8 = 2.13.

    That ratio represents Fire Type's blind offensive capability. You'll notice using the same ration on Dragon attacks will yield an offensive modifier of 8.5. It may seem like a huge difference that might throw the formula off, but I think it accurately represents the fact that Dragons can switch into almost anything and have a high chance of doing at least neutral damage, making their attacks more "offensively capable." You'll also note that Bug types and Poison types yield a much lower ration (somewhere in the 1's, I don't have the numbers in front of me at the moment) which represents the fact that they have a much lower blind potential of getting in and doing damage, even if they have a high STAB move.

    I didn't take dual type defenses into account because, I think, it would be just needless math and just reinforce what the standard type ratios are already saying. Might need to test that theory though.

    DEFENSE AND SPECIAL DEFENSE

    The idea here is the same as attack, so not much more to go over. Take the base stat, and apply a defensive modifier based on type with the same formula (except you add resistances, immunities, and neutrals and compare it to weakness). This then modifies the base stat to also take into account the type.

    HP AND SPEED

    These were oddballs that I wasn't sure how to deal with. HP can, for lack of a better explanation, effect how Defense and Special Defense hold up more than act as a value by itself. Speed can operate the same way for Attack and Special Attack by giving the intangible "first strike" potential. So, I decided to make them modifiers as well.

    I just made the modifiers by comparing the base stat to the best potential stat in the game (255 HP for Blissey and 180 Speed for Deoxys). So, they are comparisons to the "best" there is as a ratio. I added these two together to come up with a modifier to the total of the other stats, which acts like a quantitative modifier of the "intangibles". It could be changed though by using the HP ratio to modify defense stats and the Speed ratio to modify attack stats rather than modifying everything at the end, but that can be further tested later.

    Sorry, I hope that all makes sense. It makes sense in my head, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptre View Post
    I for one support the idea and any research towards a more varied metagame. Without naming names, it is apparent that some people aren't prepared to accept something new and different and are making excuses that aren't even plausible in order to justify their inside-the-box-type minds. I fully understand the concept, the formulae and the benefits of your metagame my friend and I genuinely believe it can work! I think you deserve a lot of credit for stepping up and putting your idea out on a forum like this as it's not a waste of time and I must say, I am glad that I read that first post.

    Keep up the good work, I will be subscribing to this thread and if there's any way that I can help move this forward, just give me a shout!
    I appreciate it. Like I said, I'm making an alternative, not a replacement. Although I do have trouble accepting something as first place in a competition of one

    Quote Originally Posted by Kindrindra View Post
    Heh, that's a pretty nice idea.
    I was *slightly* skeptical about it at first, but I thought it could be fixed with a simple formula.
    Did you go simple? No, you went on to make it one of the best ideas I've ever heard. It's a nice formula, and takes a lot into account. I myself used to do battles kinda like this against myself or my sisters, with one battler using one or two legends, and the other using a full team of 'Normal' pokemon.
    Also, since it has a concrete formula behind it, every time new moves are introduced, or a pokemon gains access to old moves it previously couldn't use, you simply plug everything back in again and come out with a new total.
    For the Flareon, Ursaring, and Kyogre example, the totals that were pumped out made a lot of sense. And it's a good thing you exclude Hyper Beam and Giga Impact from the normal-type scores.

    Personally, I can't wait to start using this system. I'm OK with Smogon, but this allows me to pit my favorite pokemon (Often UnderUsed) against Ubers, knowing we both have a even chance of winning.

    I'm off to plug a whole load of numbers into that formula, and calculate the values for all my five pokemon. Can't wait ^_^


    Oh, before I go, one thing you might want to clarify. Rotom's forms. How would they be handled? Maybe, instead of using their strongest Ghost or Electric attack (I think that would be Thunder), plug their special forme-specific attack into the formula?

    PS: I see a lot of the recent posters havn't seen the formula. You may want to edit it into your first post.
    Thanks! The real test is seeing if the numbers "work" when the formula is applied. I think Smogon will be a great asset, because what I HOPE will happen is we'll start to see a quantitative measurement as to WHY an OU is an OU instead of just qualitatively seeing it's used more than another pokemon. I'm theorizing you'll see numbers break down based upon the tiers that Smogon has already set up. But, now, each pokemon will have an individual value attached to it to really allow for more flexibility in how battles are structured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kindrindra View Post
    ^Just a question... mattj, did you see the formula he came up with to make up for that?
    Yep, defenately needs to be put in the first post ;^_^
    I'm trying to gather my thoughts first. This was just posted and figured out on a whim today. So, soon I should make a much better first post O_O
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    after reading through this, i had to post. i fully support this idea and hope that it can be implemented in such a way that the metagame can have a new variant to work alongside the smogon dominated one existing already. it would see a restored balance and greater variety amongst battling teams as well as bring back pokemon into the fold that have been excluded in some respect for whatever reasons, namely skarmory/blissey/cresselia.
    i will be greatly interested in following the progress of this to see how you work against the criticisms thrown your way. congratulations on thinking of an impressive way to standardise pokemon as individuals
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    Thanks for clarifying, this formula is great! I really think this will be a huge success once people give it a chance. If you ever need people to test it in battles, I'd love to try it. Good work
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    Here's an alternative...are you ready? Don't use Smogon tiers and agree to the rules of the battle before hand. Rather than complain that is. The people at Smogon do hard work to keep the site running and under control, do not belittle their work simply because you don't agree with their tiers for whatever reason. They have done thousands of battles and run thousands of tests. They probably know what their doing, I'm guessing.

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    Thanks for reading ComelyCleric~. Your skills are awesome.

    Now that I understand what you're doing (I didn't when I read this morning) I'm in support of the idea. Years ago I came up with a personal system for Anime Styled Battling that was fairly successful. It also involved using formulas based on base stats to determine where a Pokemon stands though for a different reason. It was more a system of " simplification " then for ranking Pokemon. Took about a year to tweak the system so loopholes were covered and there are still a few things that needed to be tweaked further.

    From what I understand ...

    1. All Pokemon will be given a Numerical Value. This factor won't change (except during major Tier-List-esque changing updates) and will be posted on some kind of website or forum for everyone to see and use. I imagine the determination of a Pokemon's worth would be something similar to Tiers anyway. Their Base Stat Value, movesets, capability, and ability to survive common attacks will be thoroughly tested.

    2. When a Battle is arranged the Trainers agree to a number that their Team combined cannot pass. I imagine this is something similar to what was done in Pokemon Stadium / Stadium 2 with the Level Cap and all. It was actually possible to use low level / high level Pokemon long as their overall level didn't exceed the maximum.

    3. And here's where it differs. Instead of there being straight 3 on 3 or 6 on 6 Battles you can choose to use one or two high point Pokemon where your opponent would use a Full Team of six mid point Pokemon against you. The theory is the Team of weaker Pokemon could come up with a better strategy to take down the stronger Pokemon where they'd have little support at all.

    It sounds like a good start but be prepared to do a lot of work and testing. I'll be willing to help you test out the system as well since I use a lot of NU / UU Pokemon Battling. Imagine these would become mid-grade under your system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComelyCleric~ View Post
    Here's an alternative...are you ready? Don't use Smogon tiers and agree to the rules of the battle before hand. Rather than complain that is. The people at Smogon do hard work to keep the site running and under control, do not belittle their work simply because you don't agree with their tiers for whatever reason. They have done thousands of battles and run thousands of tests. They probably know what their doing, I'm guessing.
    So, why are you complaining about someone who just wanted a fresh idea? I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "Smogon or nothing at all." And I'm not complaining about Smogon. I've praised it on several occasions. I just wanted to develop a different system (my own "rules to agree with before battle") and thought I'd share and see what people thought.

    I know Smogon has run thousands of tests. But, I bet when they first started they didn't. They are at where they are now because someone had an idea, people liked it, and people jumped on board to help.

    They do know what they are doing. In the Smogon system. When you become an expert in a model, it serves to improve the model and refine it. But to suggest it is the model to beat all models doesn't seem to make sense when my model I'm thinking of is the apple to Smogon's orange. It's a completely alternative system. And when Smogon is the only true active model out there, of course it is currently the best. It's first place in a battle of one, so to speak. Although I don't really view it as a battle at all.

    Right now there is just no method of true comparison between pokemon in the same tier. By giving pokemon individual values it opens up a completely different way of battling. Not better, just different.

    Quote Originally Posted by An00bis View Post
    Thanks for reading ComelyCleric~. Your skills are awesome.

    Now that I understand what you're doing (I didn't when I read this morning) I'm in support of the idea. Years ago I came up with a personal system for Anime Styled Battling that was fairly successful. It also involved using formulas based on base stats to determine where a Pokemon stands though for a different reason. It was more a system of " simplification " then for ranking Pokemon. Took about a year to tweak the system so loopholes were covered and there are still a few things that needed to be tweaked further.

    From what I understand ...

    1. All Pokemon will be given a Numerical Value. This factor won't change (except during major Tier-List-esque changing updates) and will be posted on some kind of website or forum for everyone to see and use. I imagine the determination of a Pokemon's worth would be something similar to Tiers anyway. Their Base Stat Value, movesets, capability, and ability to survive common attacks will be thoroughly tested.

    2. When a Battle is arranged the Trainers agree to a number that their Team combined cannot pass. I imagine this is something similar to what was done in Pokemon Stadium / Stadium 2 with the Level Cap and all. It was actually possible to use low level / high level Pokemon long as their overall level didn't exceed the maximum.

    3. And here's where it differs. Instead of there being straight 3 on 3 or 6 on 6 Battles you can choose to use one or two high point Pokemon where your opponent would use a Full Team of six mid point Pokemon against you. The theory is the Team of weaker Pokemon could come up with a better strategy to take down the stronger Pokemon where they'd have little support at all.

    It sounds like a good start but be prepared to do a lot of work and testing. I'll be willing to help you test out the system as well since I use a lot of NU / UU Pokemon Battling. Imagine these would become mid-grade under your system.
    You got it. I wanted to produce an environment that brings more variety to 6 on 6 battles by forcing choices on where to invest your "value" points, but also foster whole new ways of playing by pitting big guys against a bunch of little guys.

    I think "anime style" is kind of fitting. It brings spice back into things. Brings more of the "That guy was awesome with his [insert weaker pokemon here]" rather than "My Tyranitar was better than your Tyranitar."

    I'm aware that a LOT of testing will be needed, but I'm sure Smogon needed it to when they started. I need to see if my formula gives decent values for all pokemon and see if people want to test them out before anything else. As of now, it looks like I could enlist a few play testers.

    My only real purpose is just to give people another fun idea to use with pokemon. Not to take down some other system or supplant it.
    My traveling team:

    Svetovid Ptarmigan Plesios Tusk Bandit Juicer

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -C.S. Lewis

  25. #25
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    Mar 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoon952 View Post
    (...)

    To more accurately quantify attack, I made a formula that includes Base stat, the most powerful STAB attack available, and a modifier based on the type. I made the modifier by weighting the super effective attacks and resistance and figuring in normal effectiveness as a ratio as follows:

    [((2 x # of super effective) + # of regular effect) / (2 x # of resist)]

    So, Fire type, for instance, would have an attack effectiveness modifier of 2.13:

    [((2 x 4) + 9) / (2 x 4)] = [(8 + 9) / 8] = 2.13

    This represents Fire's general effectiveness from neutral and above compared to what resists it.

    I did Defense the same way, except resistance was switched with super effective.

    Anyway, I did the following calculations to generate the numbers needed:

    Atk/SpAtk = (Base State + Highest STAB) x Modifier = Atk/SpAtk Modifier
    Def/SpDef = Base Stat x Modifier = Def/SpDef Modifier

    For Speed and HP, I just did a ratio of the base stat to the highest currently availabe in Pokemon:

    HP = Base Stat / 255 = HP Modifier
    SPeed = Base Stat / 180 = Speed Modifier

    So, to get a final value, this is the calculation:

    Value = (Atk Mod + Def Mod + SpAtk Mod + SpDef Mod) x (HP Mod + Speed Mod) / 100
    Wobbuffet is generally concidered to be one of the most broken Pokémon in the game, at the same rank as Kyogre and Groudon. Because nothing can switch out against it and it can either lock its opponent into a non-attacking move or take out a deadly revenge killer without any trouble, it enables other Pokémon to sweep without any effort.
    Let's see how he matches up:

    Wobbuffet doesn't have any physical or special STAB attack with a Base Power. The only two offensive attacks it does have, Mirror Coat and Counter, don't hit anything Super Effective or Not Very Effective either, but one type is immune to either of them.

    Assuming types that are immune to the STAB count as 4, his offensive ratings would be:
    Attack: (33 + 0) * 16 / 4 = 132
    Special Attack: (33 + 0) * 16 / 4 = 132

    Psychic resists Psychic and Fighting, while it is weak to Bug, Dark and Ghost, so his defensive ratings are:
    Defense: 58 * (4 + 12) / 6 = 154.7
    Special Defense: 58 * (4 + 12) / 6 = 154.7

    Speed: 33 / 190 = 0.17
    HP: 190 / 255 = 0.74

    Total: (132 + 132 + 154.7 + 154.7) * (0.17 + 0.74) / 100 = 5

    Nearly twice as low as Flareon.
    You can't express the power of a Pokémon in numbers. The closest thing would be usage. If you actually want a format such as this, it needs to be based on Smogon's tiers.

    Legend of Zelda: Hoenn Adventures is currently dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smile Guy View Post
    He didn't win the argument, he was just more stubborn than you were.

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