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Thread: [Gen 5] Common Misconceptions

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    Default [Gen 5] Common Misconceptions

    This would be considered a guide I suppose. I've seen a lot of the following misconceptions said or done by one of the many 4th gen competitive posters recently so maybe this will help.

    Common Misconception 1: Team Building

    The first common misconception on the list is that every team you build has to look like this.

    1 Physical Sweeper
    1 Special Sweeper
    1 Physical Wall/Sponge
    1 Special Wall/Sponge
    1 Annoyer
    1 Utility

    This is kind of old and outdated but a lot of people still go by it. To start with, many Pokémon are able to do multiple things at once. For example, Snorlax is a great Physical Sweeper, but it can also wall a majority of the special threats in the OU metagame. The second thing wrong with this way of thinking is that it implies having a dedicated wall is automatically going to shut down all special threats. This is obviously wrong as even Blissey can't wall CM Wish Jirachi, or SubSplit Gengar. Skarmory can't even wall things like LO Gyarados and SD Lucario. Finally, not every team needs to have a special and physical sweeper to be effective. Hell, with Blissey's dominance, a majority of OU teams lack the former. Always look at Pokémon individually when making a team; The above format is wrong.

    Common Misconception 2: Annoyers

    People, annoyers do not exist. Annoyer is a stupid name for things such as Confuse Ray Umbreon or Sub T-wave Jirachi. They are not there to "annoy" the opponent, they're there because they can actually beat something with the odds being slanted in their favor thanks to Confuse Ray/T-wave's effect. The term "annoyer" has got to be scrapped. An annoyer would be some stupid **** that just tries to get your opponent to ragequit or something.

    Common Misconception 3: a 2X Super-effective Hidden Power compared to a STAB 95 base power attack

    I often times see people saying they have Hidden Power Electric on Vaporeon to hit Skarmory or something. What they don't realize is that with STAB factored in, that neutral Surf will actually be doing more damage than the Super-effective Hidden Power.

    Surf (95) + Stab(47.5) = 142.5
    HP Electric (70) + Super-effective = 140

    The numbers don't lie. With this in mind, it is generally only recommended to use Hidden Power to capitalize on things that are 4X weak to the type. This has a few exceptions though. For example, on Vaporeon, other Water type's will resist the rest of the moveset, so by adding HP Electric you have insurance against other Water's as it nearly double's the NVE Surf's damage output.

    Common Misconception 4: EVs

    Never put 255 EVs in a stat. You don't get any benefit out of them so you might as well use 252 and get your extra point. 252/252/4 is much better than 255/255. Every point can matter in Pokémon.

    252 /128 /128 spreads are hardly ever the right spread. Even when you want to split the defenses it usually better to just go for a jump point in one of the defenses, thus maximizing the spread's potential. However, some people overate the value of these jump points. A good example is Swampert. It may seem optimal to only put 216 EVs in Defense and the rest in Special Defense, but really, Swampert needs all the Defense it can get. Swampert is constantly taking boosted attacks from Tyranitar and Metagross, some of OU's strongest attackers, and every Defense point matters in these situations.

    Another thing I've seen involves Pokémon being used in conjunction with Abomasnow/Hippowdon/Tyranitar. On teams with said Pokémon, oftentimes people will go for a Leftovers number when the Pokémon isn't immune to the weather. The problem with this is that you're gaining the same amount of residual damage. In other words, it causes you to lose more from Sandstorm/Hail as well.

    Common misconception 5: Checks and Counters

    So many noobs use this for their reasoning that Salamence shouldn't be uber. Well noobs, Weavile is not a counter. A counter is a Pokémon that can SWITCH IN to another Pokémon with little to no risk to its own well-being, and also immediately threaten the opponent. Weavile cannot take anything from Salamence. Not all Salamence are Dragon Dancers. 50% are mixed. So when you bring in your Weavile, don't ***** you lost your "counter" when it is KOd by Draco Meteor. So, Weavile is not a Salamence counter, it is merely a "check".

    On a side note, a Pokémon's performance in Ubers does not affect its tiering.

    Common Misconception 6: Good on Paper = Good in Practice

    It's appalling how many RMT threads on Serebii feature two certain Pokémon. These Pokémon seem quite good on paper, but in practice they are terrible. I'll start with Electivire. Electivire is the epitome of "It's super-effective" not amounting to a KO. Sure his attacks get good coverage, but if you go physical, you have to deal with how weak 75 Base Power is. If you go special you have to deal with Electivire's below average Special Attack stat. Electivire is also kind of slow. Anything slower than Electivire can usually take its attacks do to the aforementioned reasons, and anything faster can usually OHKO it.

    Ninjask, also sucks. No competent player will ever let a Ninjask pass boosts. 1 of 3 attacks will be on nearly every team. They are Roar, Taunt, and Whirlwind. All of these moves equal an instant shutdown for Ninjask. If usage stats were weighted Ninjask would be UU where it belongs.

    Dusknoir is another good example of paper differentiating from play. On paper, it looks like Dusknoir would be giving Rotom-A some stiff competition for the number one spin-blocker in OU. It's higher defenses look good at first glance. But if you look closer you can see why you wouldn't want to use it on a team requiring spin-blocking. The biggest issue is lack of Levitate. This hurts against opposing Stall and the like. Coming in on a predicted Rapid Spin isn't doing much if you can't do it repeatedly. Taking damage from both Spikes and Toxic Spikes means Dusknoir will only get a few chances to come in, and even less if the opponent predicts right. Rotom-A has an immunity to the grounded Entry Hazards, and coveted resistances to Steel and Electric. Being able to come in on random Earthquake's is a god send as Earthquake is the most common attack in the game. When using Dusknoir you're gonna wanna focus on making sure it isn't an inferior Rotom-A. Focus on it's physical attacking prowess. Dusknoir is one of only 2 Ghosts that can utilize Physical attacks decently. A SubPunch or Choice Band set could be viable given the right support. Access to the elemental punches and Earthquake allows to function as a utility counter of sorts, something that Rotom-A can't do.

    Common Misconception 7: Creativity is key

    This is probably one of the biggest problems this forum has. People think that if you throw some random UU Pokémon on to a team, that it's creative and/or viable. Originality for originality's sake is bad. Being original simply for the cool factor is a bad approach to competitive Pokémon. Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being creative if it works. However, many times people will slap a few UUs on to their team and say they're creative battlers. But most of the time, they're just using outclassed stuff such as Cloyster, or Blaziken. In the end that's not original at all as they run almost the exact same set as their OU counterparts. If you're going to use lesser used Pokémon, make sure they aren't being outclassed by another. In the end, simply being original is not going to win you battles.

    Remember, standards are standard for a reason. CHOICE SPECS WEAVILE KILLING SCIZOR WITH HP FIRE!! might be a "surprise" to your opponent, but it comes at the cost of completely nerfing your Pokémon. Obviously not all examples are this dumb, but even in cases of a random move tweak to a more gimmicky option that can surprise a common counter, make sure your team can actually capitalize on this. Your Tyranitar might think it's cool when it gravely weakens a Swampert with HP Grass, but your Shaymin would be facepalming if its arms were long enough, as it knows it's not any closer to sweeping. *Credit to bonslet for this very informative paragraph

    Well, I hope this "guide" will help some newer players, and maybe even some veterans. I actually kind of enjoyed writing it. If anyone else can think of more common misconceptions I'll gladly edit them in, just post letting me know.
    Last edited by Fried Rhys; 26th July 2010 at 1:30 PM.

  2. #2

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    This guide is going to be extremely helpful to many of the newer players, Fried Rhys. Heck, it may even help some trolls who don't even seem to realize that they're trolling get better at competitive. ^_^

    Anyways, thanks for this guide, I hope that it will improve the quality of posts in Serebii's CRMT section.
    Last edited by Archangel; 21st July 2010 at 11:12 PM.

  3. #3
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    Lol....the last 2 really hit home, mainly because everyone's been telling me to add at least one of those to my team...saying stuff like “ooh...you'll need a salamence counter...scrap your suicune with ice beam and get weavile”, or “hey, ninjask would work well with your crobat...dual speed”. Hopefully this will shutt'm up...lol
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for the feedback guys. Remember, if you think of any others that you think may deserve a mention, just post.

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    A great idea for a guide...I think there are many things that can be added though not many come to mind atm. I'll let you know if I can think of anything but it looks good for starters. There are definately more EV misconceptions that I've seen around here as well (people using 255, maybe a few other things).

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    Can't believe I didn't think of that. I've seen it a few times recently. I'll edit in now.

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    Mmhmm...there are also a bunch about how 'abilities make certain pkmn pwn', even if their stats stink.....refer to shedinja/electivire if needed....
    -Currently own: X and Y (4597-0364-2569), current 6th gen OU record: 71W/10L/1D-


        Spoiler:- 6th gen "wants" list:


    Quote Originally Posted by Impractical Jokers
    Penny for your thoughts? The fluoride in the water is giving my son itch dittays!

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    Looking through the thread, I noticed that there was no section on "creativity", I guess it would be called. Due to the number of (wifiers especially) who occasionally have a tendency to flame people for using all OUs and not being "creative" I recommend that you add a section about how using UUs in OU doesn't make you creative. All it does is make you use weaker Pokemon that are often outclassed by others (say, using Cloyster instead of Forretress, or Blaziken instead of Infernape).

    Also, you should probably add Shuckle in somewhere with the Ninjask and EVire section. I see Shuckle in to many RMTs here, and people don't seem to realize how much it sucks in OU (especially with no Mence to provide setup for, which was pretty much the main reason to run Shuckle on your team in the first place in OU), and is even worse in UU due to lack of any good sand stream Pokes and the fact that other whether teams utilizing rain and sun are so common in UU.

    So yeah, just think that you should add that.

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    Idk about shuckle unless there's any more support for it. I don't want the last section to just be listing bad pokemon lol. I will definitely work on the creativity thing though, asap. Thanks for the idea.

  10. #10

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    Agree with EE, also could add something about Dusknoir considering its defenses don't make up for its somewhat shallow movepool, plus Rotom-A's typing makes it vastly superior. Yes Rotom-A is 2HKO'd by LO Starmie's Hydro Pump but so is Dusky...run the calcs lol. (Though note Dusknoir could actually survive if there are no Rocks and it runs max/max with Careful nature but that is absurd.)

  11. #11
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    Dusknoir sounds reasonable I suppose. I'll explain that it's higher defenses don't make up for it's lack of resistances/immunes.

    EDIT: I'm just going to change the last section to "Good on paper =/= good in battle"
    Last edited by Fried Rhys; 22nd July 2010 at 5:31 AM.

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    Cool and original guide! There are certain types of teams, however, that do rely on a strict structure like an ubers classic stall team in which the pokemon set are actually cast iron.
    Start playing ubers, not OU. Serebii needs more ubers players!

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    Credit to J-Master!

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    It basically fits under "Creativity," but I think you should write about people using gimmicky moves on standard pokemon, since it's part of the same issue. CHOICE SPECS WEAVILE KILLING SCIZOR WITH HP FIRE!! (actually I haven't calc'd that so it might need SR but w/e you get the point) might be a "surprise" to your opponent, but it comes at the cost of completely nerfing your pokemon. Obviously not all examples are this dumb, but even in cases of a random move tweak to a more gimmicky option that can surprise a common counter, make sure your team can actually capitalize on this. Your Tyranitar might think it's cool when it gravely weakens a Swampert with HP Grass, but your Shaymin would be facepalming if its arms were long enough, as it knows it's not any closer to sweeping.

    Also, if you're going to be making the section names more general, you should rename the "Weavile is not a Salamence counter" to "Checks are not the same as counters."

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    OK the last section is up.

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    Alright, will do.
    CHOICE SPECS WEAVILE KILLING SCIZOR WITH HP FIRE!! (actually I haven't calc'd that so it might need SR but w/e you get the point) might be a "surprise" to your opponent, but it comes at the cost of completely nerfing your pokemon. Obviously not all examples are this dumb, but even in cases of a random move tweak to a more gimmicky option that can surprise a common counter, make sure your team can actually capitalize on this. Your Tyranitar might think it's cool when it gravely weakens a Swampert with HP Grass, but your Shaymin would be facepalming if its arms were long enough, as it knows it's not any closer to sweeping.
    Wouldn't mind if I c+ped this would you as it sounds pretty good?

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    Yeah, that's fine.

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    Ok thanks I'll give you a mention in the guide

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    i think halfway through the guide you forgot what 'common misconception' means and just started adding it at the start of every point. e.g:

    Common misconception 5: Checks are not the same as Counters
    yep that is a common misconception right there, everyone knows checks are exactly the same as counters

    Last edited by :wub:disc; 25th July 2010 at 7:55 AM.
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    You're right i messed up on 5 and 6. In my defense it was 5 am -.-. will edit now. Can't believe no one noticed that sooner.
    Last edited by Fried Rhys; 25th July 2010 at 9:11 AM.

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    "A Pokemon's performance in Ubers does not determine its status in OU".

    Because "Salamence is outclassed by Rayquaza, it shouldn't go to ubers!" is something I am tired of hearing.

    Although since this is a battling guide it probably doesn't fit.

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    Nah it gets thrown around enough to warrant a mention. I'll add that later. Thanks.

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    I think it might be worth adding something about how usage =/= power as Scizor among other things are commonly overhyped among newer players simply because of how high they are on the usage list, and also some assume things towards the bottom (or even in lower tiers) are bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    I think it might be worth adding something about how usage =/= power as Scizor among other things are commonly overhyped among newer players simply because of how high they are on the usage list, and also some assume things towards the bottom (or even in lower tiers) are bad.
    Could you provide some good examples of this? I know you mentioned Scizor, but even if Scizor wasn't the best Pokemon in the metagame as its usage implied, it was still damn useful and easily deserving of being in the Top 10 Pokemon. Everything else that's high on the OU list is a perfectly valid representation of how useful it is, unless I'm forgetting something really obvious. The only other examples I can think of are Pokemon like Dusknoir that are near the bottom of the OU list, but him and his "noob companions," Ninjask and Electivire, are all already mentioned under the section that talks about some Pokemon not being as good as some people make them out to be.

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    Perhaps a better name for an "annoyer" would be a disruptor? As in, they get a leg up by shutting down the opponent's strategies?

    While I agree with your statement about being creative for creativity's sake (there's a difference between being creative and being stupid, and unfortunately most "creativity" seems to fall under the latter category), I think it might be a good idea to bring up another misconception of "If it's not listed in Smogon, it's an inferior set." While the folks at Smogon have good suggestions, if someone has a different idea for a set (anything from a minor EV tweak to a completely new strategy) they should experiment around and try it before dismissing it offhand.
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    Perhaps a better name for an "annoyer" would be a disruptor? As in, they get a leg up by shutting down the opponent's strategies?
    I think lockdown is actually a better term as generally what's referred to as an "annoyer"is using Flinch or Confuse ray, in order to minimize the opponent's chance of attacking

    While I agree with your statement about being creative for creativity's sake (there's a difference between being creative and being stupid, and unfortunately most "creativity" seems to fall under the latter category), I think it might be a good idea to bring up another misconception of "If it's not listed in Smogon, it's an inferior set." While the folks at Smogon have good suggestions, if someone has a different idea for a set (anything from a minor EV tweak to a completely new strategy) they should experiment around and try it before dismissing it offhand.
    Will probably mention this in the next edit.

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