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Thread: Competitive Single Rates (5th Gen Standard OU) - READ FIRST POST

  1. #4301
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    I still wonder why anyone in the history of everywhere, would use Hariyama in OU, when there are literally dozens of more viable Fighting Types that can be used in OU
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  2. #4302
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingTorterraXIV View Post
    I still wonder why anyone in the history of everywhere, would use Hariyama in OU, when there are literally dozens of more viable Fighting Types that can be used in OU
    this, exactly this

    oh and everything BH said too

    Credit to the amazing Lunar <3 and EG and BH :3

  3. #4303
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeyre80 View Post
    Three of the listed Pokes are top ten in usage of OU Standard for the month of August.
    1) Politoed - 2-3HKOs with Hydro Pump. Defensive sets force you to Rest. Takes little from your attacks.
    2) Scizor - Destroys with Bullet Punch or Superpower. U-turn does around 33%. +2 Bullet Punch OHKOs after SR.
    3) Ferrothorn - 3HKOs with Power Whip while Force Palm 4HKOs back. If it hits you with Leech Seed it will recover virtually all of the damage and freely Spike all over you. Paralyze it and Gyro Ball will 2HKO you.
    4) Dragonite - Kills you with basically any set.
    5) Heatran - You beat this.
    6) Tyranitar - This loses too.
    7) Jirachi - Iron Head, Sub CM, etc. It always beats you.
    8) Gliscor - You always lose.
    9) Breloom - Sub Punch wins. SD wins. Life Orb wins.
    10) Starmie - While you sort of sponge its hits you do absolutely nothing useful back. Also you lose to Hydro Pump in Rain and Psyshock.

    Also you have to realize that even if you force TTar / Heatran out you are doing absolutely **** to the Pokemon you counter. A weak Force Palm is all Hariyama can do. Paralysis is annoying but it won't actually kill anything.

    Otherwise, I am not saying I won't try your spread/set, nor did I anywhere in my posts. I will try it out. I am only saying mine is also viable. Your set may very well be better.
    Your set is not viable at all. Maybe you missed the 5th gen memo when Rest + Sleep Talk became useless?

    Edit: My set isn't really viable either, Hariyama is terrible.

    Edit 2: Time to get the plates, 'cuz you just got served!

  4. #4304

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    Lol @ people.

    Specially defensive Hariyama is not that bad in OU at all, lol. I think people are forgetting that Genesect hit #14 in usage with only 2 WEEKS of usage, and it's ridiculously common now. With a 252/252+ spread, Hariyama is rarely even 3HKOd by a +1 Scarf Genesect's Thunderbolt, so it's only really threatened by a Genesect user with a boost and great prediction (unless we're talking about CB Genesect with Zen Headbutt, which is underrated). In addition, unlike Pokemon like Terrakion and Heatran, Hariyama isn't killed by stupid DuggySect cores. It's a decent parashuffler, which gives it a niche over other bulky Fighting types.

    RestTalk also isn't all that bad, lol. Yeah, it's a lot harder to take advantage of now than it was last Gen, but it still helps Hariyama stay alive a lot longer than it would have otherwise. And it's really not hard to keep Hariyama in for an extra turn when your opponent is threatened by either Force Palm paralysis or Whirlwind phazing, and you can always help by running Heal Bell somewhere. Not to mention that Hariyama is surprisingly good on Hail teams. It offers a Rock and Fire resistance that are invaluable for Hail-based teams, and yes, it does stop Tyranitar pretty well. CB Tyranitar 3HKOs, sure, but what would you expect from a Pokemon with a base 134 Atk stat, a boosting nature, and a powerful STAB move? And that's not even counting the risk of Fail Edge misses. Come on, when you're taking Ttar's Stone Edges better than Skarmory, you're in pretty good shape.

    Btw, Hariyama does fare fairly well as a check to Sun teams. It's not countering them by any means, but being able to handle a +1 LO Volcarona's Fire Blast in the Sun after 3 layers of Spikes 93% of the time is pretty nice. Paralysis and Whirlwind phazing with Stealth Rock is also devestating against a lot of common Sun Pokemon, namely Volcarona, Victini, Ninetales, Venusaur, Genesect, Dugtrio, Xatu, and most other Chlorophyll users. Sleep Talk also keeps you from being effectively killed by random Sleep Powders from Chlorophyll Pokemon.

    EDIT: Yeah, I think I'll just reiterate the fact that he beats stupid DuggySect cores. People are actually running crap like RestTalk Shed Shell Heatran to beat that core, so it really is a big deal.

  5. #4305
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    No its still bad lol. Having good defenses means nothing if you aren't able to do anything useful back, and especially if you lack any real recovery.

  6. #4306

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    I'll tell you what, when DuggySect stops being on every other team, Hariyama will completely suck in OU.

  7. #4307

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    Lol @ people.

    Specially defensive Hariyama is not that bad in OU at all, lol. I think people are forgetting that Genesect hit #14 in usage with only 2 WEEKS of usage, and it's ridiculously common now. With a 252/252+ spread, Hariyama is rarely even 3HKOd by a +1 Scarf Genesect's Thunderbolt, so it's only really threatened by a Genesect user with a boost and great prediction (unless we're talking about CB Genesect with Zen Headbutt, which is underrated). In addition, unlike Pokemon like Terrakion and Heatran, Hariyama isn't killed by stupid DuggySect cores. It's a decent parashuffler, which gives it a niche over other bulky Fighting types.

    RestTalk also isn't all that bad, lol. Yeah, it's a lot harder to take advantage of now than it was last Gen, but it still helps Hariyama stay alive a lot longer than it would have otherwise. And it's really not hard to keep Hariyama in for an extra turn when your opponent is threatened by either Force Palm paralysis or Whirlwind phazing, and you can always help by running Heal Bell somewhere. Not to mention that Hariyama is surprisingly good on Hail teams. It offers a Rock and Fire resistance that are invaluable for Hail-based teams, and yes, it does stop Tyranitar pretty well. CB Tyranitar 3HKOs, sure, but what would you expect from a Pokemon with a base 134 Atk stat, a boosting nature, and a powerful STAB move? And that's not even counting the risk of Fail Edge misses. Come on, when you're taking Ttar's Stone Edges better than Skarmory, you're in pretty good shape.

    Btw, Hariyama does fare fairly well as a check to Sun teams. It's not countering them by any means, but being able to handle a +1 LO Volcarona's Fire Blast in the Sun after 3 layers of Spikes 93% of the time is pretty nice. Paralysis and Whirlwind phazing with Stealth Rock is also devestating against a lot of common Sun Pokemon, namely Volcarona, Victini, Ninetales, Venusaur, Genesect, Dugtrio, Xatu, and most other Chlorophyll users. Sleep Talk also keeps you from being effectively killed by random Sleep Powders from Chlorophyll Pokemon.

    EDIT: Yeah, I think I'll just reiterate the fact that he beats stupid DuggySect cores. People are actually running crap like RestTalk Shed Shell Heatran to beat that core, so it really is a big deal.
    Thank you very much! There is at least one sane person still in CRMT.

    And yes, it's niche ends when DuggySect goes away, but, for now...Viable in OU.



  8. #4308
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    5 points i notice about Hariyama's viability in OU and the arguing here, mostly speculation

    I have not seen one Hariyama in the 100 or so games i played on showdown.

    Duggy Genesect is not even THAT common, most people still use sand and rain which rarely have Gene duggy(a few rain teams do have it). And to counter sun there is something called a Tran, with or without a ballon/scarf(both were fairly common on ladder although scarf slightly rarer). And no, people are not resorting to resttalk shed shell tran, i rarely see that on ladder.

    Resttalk is unreliable, you are pretty much gambling to ensure effectiveness of Hariyama especially with the sleep mechanics right now.

    Even with Heal bell we are talking about a lot of support just so Hariyama can run an unreliable resttalk set that is supposedly effective against one type of combination(duggy/gene). It isn't as flexible like other sun counters.

    Lastly, how about actually providing proof, aka logs that it works before you start preaching Hariyama is now an oh so godly resttalking parashuffler.
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  9. #4309
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    Jeyre80 is an awful player.

    Hariyama is terrible and Rest/Talk is even worse.

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  10. #4310
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I'll tell you what, when DuggySect stops being on every other team, Hariyama will completely suck in OU.
    I don't want to completely copy what Peachy said but all of you seem to be completely ignoring a few facts.

    1) Rest + Sleep Talk is bad. It is unreliable and even in a perfect world where you manage to wake up every Rest cycle, it still isn't very good healing.
    2) His EVs are bad. Why is no one listening to the fact that his EVs are HORRIBLE.
    3) Hariyama doesn't do anything. Force Palm is weak meaning when against something it doesn't hit 2x effective it can only hope for Paralyze, something you have a 70% fail rate with.

    JF I said in the xat that a 4 attack tank set is better, and you replied why not use (X random other tankish fighters). Well exactly. Hariyama is bad. While this set has been the "OU standard" for Hariyama since gen 4 it is only because it is the closest thing to having a niche Hariyama gets. Having a "niche" does not actually make a set good.

    Cloyster used to be famed in gen 4 for hard countering Garchomp. It still sucked.

    Shuca Berry / Ice Punch / Explosion Regirock under Sandstorm was able to beat Garchomp, ALL Salamence and Latias in gen 4. Despite having a niche it was absolutely worthless outside of those situations. Same for Scarf Cresselia / Suicune.

    Having a niche does not mean a Pokemon has a spot on a team. This is the problem with Hariyama. Anything useful it can do could be done by other team members. Team members that aren't total garbage outside of their tiny niche.


    Quote Originally Posted by jeyre80 View Post
    Thank you very much! There is at least one sane person still in CRMT.

    And yes, it's niche ends when DuggySect goes away, but, for now...Viable in OU.
    ROFL, you're BSing out your ***. One single person agrees with you (as much as I like JF, he is completely wrong here) and you cling to them as though they were making the same argument you were. First off Duggy + Genesect is not even remotely close to being on every team. Second of all you never once mentioned Dugtrio. You obviously don't know what you're talking about, further evidenced by your ladder peak of 1275? Come on I've reached higher ranks with joke Sunkern, Corsola, and Mawile teams. If you want to live in your own little world where Rest/Talk Hariyama is OU viable, please do so. Enjoy not breaking 1300 ever. To improve as a player you must consider other options, not just clinging to your own beliefs. Be open minded, it is the only way to improve.

  11. #4311

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    Lol, let me make one thing clear. Hariyama is not a great choice for an OU team, and it's certainly not a Pokemon that you can just throw on a team and expect to be awesome. It does not counter Sun by itself (I actually said that in my original post). It's main niche that I've found useful is on Hail teams, which really love bulky Fighting types. The Fire resistance is just an added bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsJustPeachy View Post
    Lastly, how about actually providing proof, aka logs that it works before you start preaching Hariyama is now an oh so godly resttalking parashuffler.
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...3470918&page=7
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...3471917&page=4

    Here are a couple of places on Smogon where others have found some success with Hariyama. Katakiri's original post was what inspired me to try it on a random Hail stall team about a week ago, and it worked pretty well. It checked just the right stuff to warrant usage on the team. And that was a week ago; jeyre80 is actually kinda late to the party.

    Oh, and here's a log that another user posted. I'd get you one of my own as well, but logs from PO mean next to nothing since PO's ladder sucks, and I really don't know how to save battles on Showdown. Not to mention that Showdown is down right now, as is Aesoft.

        Spoiler:- Log:


    @Everyone: Also, please stop calling other people bad players. I don't know how good everyone is, and I don't care. It's still rude.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest
    Having a niche does not mean a Pokemon has a spot on a team.
    Gastrodon shot up to #29 in usage during the month of October last year literally because it checked Rain so well, which was only about 1/5 teams. Apparently it does.

  12. #4312
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    Here's a new set for everyone to check out.

    Alomomola @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Nature: Impish
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    - Waterfall
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    This set has a really good niche in ou since it counters heatran, also it owns sun teams since it has a resistance to fire. Toxic is gud for some stallin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AB2 View Post
    Here's a new set for everyone to check out.

    Alomomola @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Nature: Impish
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    - Waterfall
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    This set has a really good niche in ou since it counters heatran, also it owns sun teams since it has a resistance to fire. Toxic is gud for some stallin.
    Omg now this, THIS IS A GOD SET, everyone this is a much better set then that Hariyama.


  14. #4314
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    Ok what about this. How about someone ladder with Hariyama, or win an important tournament with it, or maybe convince someone other than randoms at Smogon that Hariyama is usable (simply being "posted at Smogon" does not instantly make a post good).

    This is going in pointless circles. Literally the only person who agrees with Jeyer80 is JF, whom I almost suspect is trolling by supporting a clearly gimmick set.

    Posting logs against obviously bad randoms means nothing. He was using a Dusknoir lol. Get logs of Hariyama being played against a well known player who clearly knows what they're doing. If posting a log is all it takes to make a set good well... I have a few logs of CB Onix and Belly Drum Poliwag sweeping if you want.

    On topic of Hail teams, there are so many better ways to get those resistances on your team. Even if you decide to run Hariyama, for the love of God please do not use Rest + Sleep Talk.

  15. #4315
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    Quote Originally Posted by AB2 View Post
    Here's a new set for everyone to check out.

    Alomomola @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Nature: Impish
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    - Waterfall
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    This set has a really good niche in ou since it counters heatran, also it owns sun teams since it has a resistance to fire. Toxic is gud for some stallin.
    Well, I'll be damned! This is indeed a godly set. About as good as it gets when it comes to a counter for sun teams.

  16. #4316

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    This is going in pointless circles. Literally the only person who agrees with Jeyer80 is JF, whom I almost suspect is trolling by supporting a clearly gimmick set.
    BH, you know good and well I don't troll. Last time I tried, Specscavalier made Other Options on the POTW.

    Look, you can say how much you think it sucks and we can go back and forth all day. Myself and others have tried it and had success, so that's about the strongest case I can make for it. I found other discussion pertaining to Hariyama and what little log evidence I really have access to, so if that's not enough, then that's really all I have to say about that.

  17. #4317
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    a fun lc set I used awhile that isn't terrible. Made it awhile ago, but can still work



    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 80 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 156 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Sunny Day/Rain Dance
    - U-turn
    - Drain Punch
    - Knock Off/ Payback

    This Mienfoo actually works quite well. With all the new pokes and stuff that use Sandstorm, this is a great lead. As most people will lead off their Hippopotas, or Snover. Now since Hippo's will usually set up Stealth Rocks, you can use Sunny Day and get rid of the infinate weather, which really makes the team suffer, cause most infinate weather teammates (execpt Snover, but Snover only is for Blizzard Spam.) need their weather to function. If the opponent decides to attack you, Mienfoo is very, very bulky.

    Sunny Day or Rain Dance not only gets rid of the sandstorm or hail, but also provides a way to set up for Chlorophyl sweepers, or Swift Swim sweepers, and with the amazing bulk of Mienfoo, you'll be getting up your weather...a lot. Sunny Day is better, since LC has more Water-types and Water-type attackers, more than Fire Types- and Fire Type Attackers. You really don't wanting to be taking boosted Hydro Pumps or Scalds that often.
    Drain Punch is better than Hi Jump Kick, as even with all that bulk, Mienfoo appreciates healing, and even though Hi Jump Kick hits much harder, but missing with the advent of Misdreavus, really cuts down it's livability. U-turn is standard, with having switch advantage, and gettign Regenerator. You can use either Payback or Knock Off. Knock Off let's you **** up some pokes that rely on their items, like Choice Scarfers. Payback lets you hit harder, and even harder if the opponent is faster. Both these let you hit troublesome Ghost Types.
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  18. #4318
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    BH, you know good and well I don't troll. Last time I tried, Specscavalier made Other Options on the POTW.

    Look, you can say how much you think it sucks and we can go back and forth all day. Myself and others have tried it and had success, so that's about the strongest case I can make for it. I found other discussion pertaining to Hariyama and what little log evidence I really have access to, so if that's not enough, then that's really all I have to say about that.
    Actually I have used that EXACT Hariyama set on a Hail team. However that was back in 4th gen when Rest / Talk actually worked and the sheer power of most Pokemon was lower than it is now. Even then it wasn't very good. Now Rest/talk is utterly useless. What I said before stands. If you can find someone who found success in a way that can be measured on the ladder or in tournaments besides by beating random ladder kids I might consider Hariyama to be usable. However as of now I see no reason to consider Hariyama as anything more than garbage.


    Anyway.

    Latios (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 12 Atk / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Like a regular LO Latios, but this one has the ability to smash most of its common counters. Tyranitar is usually 2HKOed by Draco Meteor + Earthquake. Heatran that switches in on Draco Meteor will always stay in to use Stealth Rocks, except it is quickly wiped out. Most Jirachi are 2HKOed by Earthquake, even the more defensive ones are 2HKOed once it reaches ~85%. A great lure to remove Heatran, this also works incredibly well on sun teams. Hasty vs Naive is up to you. I like switching in on special attacks, as trying to fortify yourself against Bullet Punch is pointless as LO recoil makes the KO from that inevitable.

  19. #4319
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    Politoed
    Nature: Bold
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Drizzle
    EVs: 248 HP/ 252 Def/ 8 Spe

    Scald
    Hypnosis/Toxic
    Encore/ Perish Song
    Protect/Ice Beam/Focus Blast

    Well, I've been thinking. The first part of the plan is to set the field by summon rain when its appears after Corsola, Gigarith,or Steelix starts things off with Stealth Rock to weaken the opponent's side. Giving the offense Water-type pokemon the advantages like Floatzel with Swift Swim ability to double its speed . Hypnosis can help but with accuracy is at %60, Toxic can help also as it could weaken their defenses. However it won't work on Poison and Steel-types pokemon. Encore will force the opponent to be stuck on with one move. I don't know about Perish Song but I heard it cost its own life to bring down the opponent and that will be risky. Protect might be good since it can shield it from Electric, and Grass type attacks. Ice Beam just in case if it faces the Dragon and Grass types. Focus Blast also might be able to handle Tyranitar. But also can take out Steel,Dark,Ice,Rock,and Normal types. Although I've already planned to have a Milotic with Marvel Scale ability for great defense who can use the combination of Rest and Sleep Talk. Its main purpose is to summon Rain permanently. I already aware that Kygore can summon rain easily. But I don't want them to think that I'm sort kind of a noob who have no skill without relying on the legendary pokemon. Kygore and Politoed are the only two pokemon that has the ability Drizzle. Sure Rain Dance can help but it's only temporary as it last for five turns. So what do you think?
    Last edited by Shego; 24th September 2012 at 6:45 PM.
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  20. #4320

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    @BH: Protip, 4 more Atk EVs will guarantee the 2HKO on SpD Rachi with EQ after SR and one layer of Spikes. I used Honko's damage calc for this, which is occasionally a little off, but there's just a quick two cents.

  21. #4321

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    Quote Originally Posted by AB2 View Post
    Here's a new set for everyone to check out.

    Alomomola @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    Nature: Impish
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    - Waterfall
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    This set has a really good niche in ou since it counters heatran, also it owns sun teams since it has a resistance to fire. Toxic is gud for some stallin.
    just pointing out, this set is legal in nu also. makes you think.
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  22. #4322

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    Breloom @ Life Orb
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def
    Movest:
    -Spore
    -Mach Punch
    -Bullet Seed
    -Rock Tomb

    Mostly basic Breloom set, but with a rarely/never used move in Rock Tomb.

    After the Technician boost, you are getting nearly the same power out of Rock Tomb as you would out of Stone Edge, same accuracy, and it can be very benificial to get a dropped stat on your opponents speed. The speed drop does happen 100% of the time (as long as it hits).

    Could be very good versus faster switch ins that might think they can outspeed Breloom, and hits Dragons hard since niether of Breloom's STAB attacks do anything worth mentioning to most Dragons.

    Quick damage calcs.....

    LO Tech. Breloom Rock Tomb, Versus 4/0/0 Def Latias: Damage: 140 - 166 of 302 HP 46% - 54% (2HKO after Stealth Rock, and will outspeed a non-scarfed variant after the switch.)

    Same, versus Salamence: Damage: 280 - 332 of 332 HP 84% - 100% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)

    Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (with Multiscale in tact): Damage: 122 - 144 of 386 HP 31% - 37%

    Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (Multiscale broken) Damage: 244 - 288 of 386 HP 63% - 74% (Outspeeds, and 2HKOs with no Multiscale, but beware of Choice Band ExtremeSpeed)

    Same, versus Gengar: Damage: 176 - 209 of 262 HP 67% - 79% (Outspeeds and 2HKOs) (Not a Daragon, but usually bothersome for Breloom)

    The Damage Calculator I used



  23. #4323
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    Here's a decent NU set I thought of.


    Ludicolo @ Leftovers / Big Root
    Modest - Rain Dish
    252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP, 4 Speed
    -Giga Drain
    -Leech Seed
    -Hidden Power (Rock)
    -Rain Dance

    Giga Drain + Leftovers + Rain Dish + Leech Seed give him incredible healing abilities. HP Rock is obviously for the birds and bugs that switch in on him. Rain Dance is obvious.

    Would he get more healing from Leftovers or Big Root, if Rain and Leech Seed were both present?
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  24. #4324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevensevens View Post
    Here's a decent NU set I thought of.


    Ludicolo @ Leftovers / Big Root
    Modest - Rain Dish
    252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP, 4 Speed
    -Giga Drain
    -Leech Seed
    -Hidden Power (Rock)
    -Rain Dance

    Giga Drain + Leftovers + Rain Dish + Leech Seed give him incredible healing abilities. HP Rock is obviously for the birds and bugs that switch in on him. Rain Dance is obvious.

    Would he get more healing from Leftovers or Big Root, if Rain and Leech Seed were both present?
    Leftovers..

    but I don't get why would you waste the rain like that.. save those sets to eternal rain of OU (and it is not recommended there either) use swift swim.. it is much more deadly and the rain would end soon enough.


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  25. #4325

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevensevens View Post
    Here's a decent NU set I thought of.


    Ludicolo @ Leftovers / Big Root
    Modest - Rain Dish
    252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP, 4 Speed
    -Giga Drain
    -Leech Seed
    -Hidden Power (Rock)
    -Rain Dance

    Giga Drain + Leftovers + Rain Dish + Leech Seed give him incredible healing abilities. HP Rock is obviously for the birds and bugs that switch in on him. Rain Dance is obvious.

    Would he get more healing from Leftovers or Big Root, if Rain and Leech Seed were both present?
    HP Rock? Ludicolo learns Ice Beam. What is your purpose here for HP Rock. It can't be for the common Dragons, and since you have access to Surf, as well, Vocarona also would not be a resonable answer (due to coverage + STAB).

    What are you trying to hit with HP Rock?



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