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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

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    Default Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

    The Tier list and rules that will be used on Serebii (to be used on Wi-Fi as well). Based off Smogon's tier list.

    General Rules
    Ubers are banned from OU downwards.
    Dream World Pokemon currently unavailable are banned.
    All moves that increase Evasion only (e.g. Minimize) are banned.
    All instant OHKO moves (e.g. Horn Drill) are banned.
    You may not use a Pokémon team carrying both Pokémon with the ability Swift Swim and the ability Drizzle.

    Banned Abilities
    Moody
    Sand Veil
    Snow Cloak

    Banned Items
    Soul Dew
    Brightpowder
    Lax Incense

    Ubers
    Code:
    Arceus-Dark
    Arceus-Ice
    Palkia
    Arceus-Electric
    Arceus-Fire
    Arceus-???
    Kyurem-White
    Arceus-Ground
    Arceus-Bug
    Thundurus
    Tornadus-Therian
    Genesect
    Arceus-Steel
    Lugia
    Excadrill
    Arceus-Fighting
    Darkrai
    Deoxys
    Manaphy
    Ho-Oh
    Giratina
    Giratina-Origin
    Arceus-Dragon
    Deoxys-Speed
    Mewtwo
    Dialga
    Deoxys-Attack
    Arceus
    Shaymin-Sky
    Groudon
    Arceus-Flying
    Zekrom
    Arceus-Water
    Rayquaza
    Blaziken
    Arceus-Psychic
    Arceus-Rock
    Arceus-Ghost
    Reshiram
    Arceus-Grass
    Kyogre
    Arceus-Poison
    Deoxys-Defense
    Landorus
    OU
    Code:
    Celebi
    Tyranitar
    Infernape
    Tentacruel
    Heatran
    Reuniclus
    Lucario
    Donphan
    Gastrodon
    Haxorus
    Jolteon
    Mamoswine
    Blissey
    Venusaur
    Volcarona
    Espeon
    Magnezone
    Salamence
    Conkeldurr
    Hippowdon
    Kyurem-Black
    Latias
    Ninetales
    Hydreigon
    Landorus-Therian
    Politoed
    Alakazam
    Gliscor
    Ferrothorn
    Jirachi
    Dragonite
    Terrakion
    Forretress
    Gyarados
    Vaporeon
    Breloom
    Scizor
    Cloyster
    Latios
    Thundurus-Therian
    Skarmory
    Garchomp
    Jellicent
    Gengar
    Toxicroak
    Keldeo
    Dugtrio
    Rotom-Wash
    Metagross
    Starmie
    BL
    Code:
    Wobbuffet
    Kyurem
    Gothitelle
    Staraptor
    Chansey
    UU
    Note: The abilities Drought and Sand Stream but not Snow Warning are banned from tiers UU and below.
    Code:
    Heracross
    Snorlax
    Machamp
    Mienshao
    Scrafty
    Rhyperior
    Mew
    Honchkrow
    Kingdra
    Slowbro
    Xatu
    Flygon
    Sableye
    Bronzong
    Weavile
    Chandelure
    Rotom-Heat
    Umbreon
    Arcanine
    Porygon-Z
    Shaymin
    Registeel
    Tornadus
    Porygon2
    Cobalion
    Mismagius
    Crobat
    Suicune
    Blastoise
    Darmanitan
    Azumarill
    Meloetta
    Togekiss
    Milotic
    Swampert
    Empoleon
    Victini
    Froslass
    Zoroark
    Virizion
    Claydol
    Abomasnow
    Krookodile
    Cofagrigus
    Hitmontop
    Bisharp
    Houndoom
    Dusclops
    Gligar
    Azelf
    Yanmega
    Raikou
    Zapdos
    Roserade
    Sharpedo
    Nidoking
    Ambipom
    BL 2
    Code:
    Venomoth
    Cresselia
    RU
    Note: No pokemon in RU or below may have both Shell Smash AND Baton Pass on the same moveset.
    Code:
    Electivire
    Manectric
    Galvantula
    Qwilfish
    Moltres
    Rhydon
    Gallade
    Mandibuzz
    Spiritomb
    Poliwrath
    Absol
    Scolipede
    Cryogonal
    Entei
    Lanturn
    Sandslash
    Hitmonlee
    Munchlax
    Aggron
    Clefable
    Primeape
    Omastar
    Mesprit
    Slowking
    Steelix
    Klinklang
    Sigilyph
    Tangrowth
    Rotom
    Sceptile
    Drapion
    Durant
    Dusknoir
    Snover
    Hitmonchan
    Magneton
    Quagsire
    Archeops
    Hariyama
    Crawdaunt
    Magmortar
    Smeargle
    Aerodactyl
    Typhlosion
    Druddigon
    Escavalier
    Rotom-Mow
    Medicham
    Amoonguss
    Cinccino
    Kabutops
    Lilligant
    Nidoqueen
    Crustle
    Whimsicott
    Bouffalant
    Scyther
    Feraligatr
    Uxie
    Ferroseed
    Accelgor
    Emboar
    BL3
    Code:
    Jynx
    NU
    Code:
    Weezing
    Bastiodon
    Misdreavus
    Altaria
    Roselia
    Wartortle
    Armaldo
    Sawk
    Ampharos
    Gardevoir
    Haunter
    Glaceon
    Rotom-Fan
    Articuno
    Kadabra
    Skuntank
    Ninjask
    Miltank
    Exeggutor
    Rotom-Frost
    Electabuzz
    Torkoal
    Kangaskhan
    Regirock
    Drifblim
    Golurk
    Stoutland
    Electrode
    Marowak
    Cacturne
    Lapras
    Samurott
    Floatzel
    Liepard
    Tangela
    Alomomola
    Gurdurr
    Carracosta
    Gorebyss
    Jumpluff
    Eelektross
    Regice
    Swellow
    Ludicolo
    Ditto
    Piloswine
    Musharna
    Seismitoad
    Pinsir
    Braviary
    Garbodor
    Probopass
    Sawsbuck
    Charizard
    Golem
    Lickilicky
    Zangoose
    LC Banlist
    Code:
    Carvanha
    Gligar
    Meditite
    Misdreavus
    Murkrow
    Scyther
    Sneasel
    Tangela
    Vulpix
    Yanma
    Berry Juice
    Dragon Rage
    Sonic Boom
    LC
    Code:
    Abra
    Aipom
    Anorith
    Archen
    Aron
    Axew
    Azurill
    Bagon
    Baltoy
    Barboach
    Beldum
    Bellsprout
    Bidoof
    Blitzle
    Bonsly
    Bronzor
    Budew
    Buizel
    Bulbasaur
    Buneary
    Burmy
    Cacnea
    Carvanha
    Caterpie
    Charmander
    Cherubi
    Chikorita
    Chimchar
    Chinchou
    Chingling
    Clamperl
    Cleffa
    Combee
    Corphish
    Cottonee
    Croagunk
    Cubchoo
    Cubone
    Cyndaquil
    Darumaka
    Deerling
    Deino
    Diglett
    Doduo
    Dratini
    Drifloon
    Drilbur
    Drowzee
    Ducklett
    Duskull
    Dwebble
    Eevee
    Ekans
    Electrike
    Elekid
    Elgyem
    Exeggcute
    Feebas
    Ferroseed
    Finneon
    Foongus
    Frillish
    Gastly
    Geodude
    Gible
    Glameow
    Gligar
    Goldeen
    Golett
    Gothita
    Grimer
    Growlithe
    Gulpin
    Happiny
    Hippopotas
    Hoothoot
    Hoppip
    Horsea
    Houndour
    Igglybuff
    Joltik
    Kabuto
    Karrablast
    Klink
    Koffing
    Krabby
    Kricketot
    Larvesta
    Larvitar
    Ledyba
    Lickitung
    Lileep
    Lillipup
    Litwick
    Lotad
    Machop
    Magby
    Magikarp
    Magnemite
    Makuhita
    Mankey
    Mantyke
    Mareep
    Meditite
    Meowth
    Mienfoo
    Mime Jr.
    Minccino
    Misdreavus
    Mudkip
    Munchlax
    Munna
    Natu
    Nidoran♀
    Nidoran♂
    Nincada
    Nosepass
    Numel
    Oddish
    Omanyte
    Onix
    Oshawott
    Panpour
    Pansage
    Pansear
    Paras
    Patrat
    Pawniard
    Petilil
    Phanphy
    Pichu
    Pidgey
    Pidove
    Pineco
    Piplup
    Poliwag
    Ponyta
    Poochyena
    Porygon
    Psyduck
    Purrloin
    Ralts
    Rattata
    Remoraid
    Rhyhorn
    Riolu
    Roggenrola
    Rufflet
    Sandile
    Sandshrew
    Scraggy
    Scyther
    Seedot
    Seel
    Sentret
    Sewaddle
    Shellder
    Shellos
    Shelmet
    Shieldon
    Shinx
    Shroomish
    Shuppet
    Skitty
    Skorupi
    Slakoth
    Slowpoke
    Slugma
    Smoochum
    Snivy
    Snorunt
    Snover
    Snubull
    Solosis
    Spearow
    Spheal
    Spinarak
    Spoink
    Squirtle
    Starly
    Staryu
    Stunky
    Sunkern
    Surskit
    Swablu
    Swinub
    Tailow
    Tangela
    Teddiursa
    Tentacool
    Tepig
    Timburr
    Tirtouga
    Togepi
    Torchic
    Totodile
    Trapinch
    Treecko
    Trubbish
    Turtwig
    Tympole
    Tynamo
    Tyrogue
    Vanillite
    Venipede
    Venonat
    Voltorb
    Vullaby
    Wailmer
    Weedle
    Whismur
    Wingull
    Woobat
    Wooper
    Wurmple
    Wynaut
    Yamask
    Zigzagoon
    Zorua
    Zubat

  2. #2

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    I posted my opinions on Wob in the other thread. I guess I can give my two cents on the other 5.

    Deoxys (both Normal and A) - I'm going to count this as one because they are very similar. Both have extremely high offensive stats and speed. They also have a tremendous movepool and would most likely centralize the metagame around priority attacks which would be required to take them down without taking significant damage. Based off of experience in 4th gen Ubers it would also make a very powerful lead which can kill just about any other lead while also getting down Rocks. Due to how effective it would be as a lead and sweeper (assuming priority attacks are absent) I say these forms are likely Uber.

    Deoxys-D - I don't think this is as broken as the other forms. Its pretty similar to Cresselia only with a better movepool, which is something Cresselia would kill for. It could be an useful support pokemon and might benefit stall, and quite frankly stall needs all the help it can get this gen. While it does have the same support movepool which got its Speed counterpart banned in the previous gen it lacks the Speed to prevent itself from being Taunted so I think this will be manageable in OU.

    Deoxys-S - This was easily the most broken pokemon that was ever allowed in 4th gen OU. In 5th gen there are many changes which could help balance it out though. The fact you can see it before battle and choose a lead accordingly can prevent it from being as broken as it previously was. The absence of Rotom-A to keep its hazards around might also hinder it, though there are many more Ghosts this time around so its an even trade off in that regard. The only thing which worries me at this point is if it will be too powerful as a late game cleaner or revenge killer. Its worth testing in OU, though I'm still on the fence and think it is probably Uber.

    Mew - There is simply too much that Mew can do. Baton Passing is the only role it ever uses in Ubers, though in OU it would probably be much harder to predict since it wouldn't be outclassed by everything else in the tier in one way or another. It can run just about any kind of offensive set, and it can support its team in a number of ways. I think its unpredictablility, as well as the stats to do just about anything with its bottomless movepool, is enough for it to be Uber, though if enough people think it should be tested in OU I wouldn't be opposed.
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    I'll just give an opinion on what I think.

    Mew - If Victini is not in Uber, I don't think Mew should be either. They have almost the same stats (I THINK), and a lot of things like Gengar and new Isshu Pokemon can take it out in OU.

    Wobbufett - This should probably still be in Uber. In my opinion, it looks just as hard to beat since 4th Gen.

    Deoxys - This I think should also be in Uber. It has great attack and speed in Attack Form, and great defenses in Defense Form.
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    Are these effective now? or when b/w are relased in the states, also is smogon testing now or are they waiting for the release?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb08045 View Post
    Are these effective now? or when b/w are relased in the states, also is smogon testing now or are they waiting for the release?
    I don't see any reason why these shouldn't be effective now considering Smogon doesn't have an official tier list to follow yet. Smogon isn't testing yet as they are waiting for PL to add 5th gen so that testing can happen in the first place. Right now these tiers really only apply to WiFi'ers since they are the only ones which can play to begin with. These tiers will probably be effective for quite some time considering Smogon still has yet to begin testing, and even when they do it will likely take 6 months or more for things to settle down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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  6. #6

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    I'll throw in my two cents.

    Deoxys-S: I'm afraid that D-S will just play the same role that it did back when it was previosly allowed in OU. Even without a solid lead metagame, D-S will still be the fastest Taunter, Spiker, Dual Screener, and attacker in OU...worse, the entire game. This means that he will still likely be broken under the support category. I say keep him Uber.

    Deoxys-D: D-D is much less broken. Actually, I think that its bulk and access to Recover could prove useful in such a powerful metagame and still not be broken. Psychic is still a pretty bad defensive type, and without the right moves D-D makes perfect set-up fodder for Shanderaa. I say he's good for OU.

    Other Deoxys: Deoxys's other two forms are too powerful and broken for OU. Yes, they are killed by priority with their frail defenses, but they also have very fast and powerful priority of their own. Uber.

    Wobbufett: I think this guy is worth trying in OU again. Encore is a lot weaker now, and that was one thing that really helped Wobbufett to shine. I say he's worth testing in OU for now.

    Mew: There's just too much versatility with Mew. It can use Swords Dance and Nasty Plot to sweep, it makes an amazing Baton Passer, it has an amazing movepool...is there anything that Mew can't do? On the other hand, Psychic isn't the best of types, and it could be balanced out by all of the new powerful attackers and NFE stallers with their Pre-Evo Stones. I guess testing is worth it, but I'm leaning towards Uber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesusfreak94 View Post
    I'll throw in my two cents.

    Deoxys-S: I'm afraid that D-S will just play the same role that it did back when it was previosly allowed in OU. Even without a solid lead metagame, D-S will still be the fastest Taunter, Spiker, Dual Screener, and attacker in OU...worse, the entire game. This means that he will still likely be broken under the support category. I say keep him Uber
    Just to let you know that Deoxys is not the fastest Taunt user. It falls behind every Pokémon that has the ability Prankster and is able to learn Taunt, even level one Sableye which is invincible To lead Deoxys with Taunt, Spikes, Stealth Rock and ExtremeSpeed. OU it is. Beating Aerod. to it.
    Nambiri

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    @ jb08045

    They are active now. The games have been imported to America already and Wifi battles have been posted on Youtube. No reason to wait for Smogon to start.

    Deoxys-Normal - 150/150/150 stats are incredibly high, but might be deceiving. Its defenses are obviously terrible so if it can't OHKO the opponent it dies. It must run a speed boosting nature to outrun anything more than the base 130s, and even with Hasty its going to be beaten by Scarf Garchomp, Flygon and Jirachi. Its defenses are retarded enough that it will not escape a 2HKO from even Blissey. Its probably Uber, but maybe not as bad as some people say..

    - It must run a Hasty or Naive nature to outrun Scarf Rotom and Jolly Gyarados. If it does this it will have less attack than Metagross, and much worse STAB.
    - It can not 2HKO Prevo Stone Porygon 2 with Superpower. Porygon 2 can be as low as 75% and still avoid being 2HKOed.
    - It can not 2HKO Deoxys Defense with Shadow Ball if it is Specially Defensive. If it runs Shadow Ball it will likely not run STAB, cutting the number of things it can OHKO in half.
    - Calm Prevo Stone Dusclops needs only 60 Special Defense EVs to guarantee survival against 2 Shadow Balls. It easily strikes back with Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. I assume Dusclops will be primarily Specially Defensive anyway, so it can shrug off hits from Specs Latios.
    - It can not 2HKO Calm Cresselia even if it runs no Special Defense EVs.
    - Lucario and Scizor both survive some hits decently and can KO back.
    - Metagross can hammer it with Bullet Punch and take any of its moves.
    - Rotom can easily survive two of its hits with only about 60 Special Defense EVs. Only Psychic harms him.
    - Spiritomb beats it, but Spiritomb sucks.
    - Bronzong destroys it.
    - Defensive Jirachi laughs at all of his moves.
    - If Genosekuto or Melotta allowed into OU they can take any hit decently. Without priority they could drop to a second hit though.
    - Shuckle lol.
    - Nattorei (Grass / Steel Landmine thing) beats it assuming it doesn't have HP Fire. HP Fire has terrible coverage and like Deoxys S when it was OU, would probably never use it.
    - Zuruzukin (Dark / Fighting) takes the hits ok, only disliking Superpower which it can survive two of if it runs HP EVs and intimidate (unless Deoxys runs a LOT of Attack EVs).
    - Iwaparesu (Bug/Rock hermit crab) takes almost nothing from his attacks in a sandstorm assuming some defensive EVs.
    - Prevo Stone Munchlax can just barely avoid a 2HKO from Superpower.
    - Forretress is 3HKOed by any non-HP Fire hit.
    - Dragonite can take SOME abuse from Superpower or Shadow Ball and clip it with Extremespeed.
    - It will never switch in safely, but Dugtrio permanently removes it with Sucker Punch.
    -Flygon, Jirachi, Latias, Latios, Garchomp and Shaymin all beat it while holding a Scarf, and can switch in moderately safely on some on its moves.

    Its probably broken. I'm just supportive because its my favorite legend. ^_^ Uber.

    Deoxys-A - It hits so ridiculously hard and so fast that even if you have priority you must predict perfectly. Scizor is easily 2HKOed by LO Thunderbolt forcing you to predict it switching, or take a huge risk by Bullet Punching. Unlike Deoxys regular is will easily 2HKO virtually everything Deoxys N 3HKOs. The defense loss is negligible compared to the added slaughter. I would call this Uber without much worry.

    Deoxys-D - Defense similar to Nattorei but with Recovery. Its typing sucks and its defenses aren't all that amazing compared to Porygon 2 and Dusclops. It has an endless movepool but few worthwhile moves. Its worthy of a team slot, but doesn't wall everything and can be easily worn down by boosted hits and Scizor's douchings. I think OU.

    Deoxys-S - He was pretty bad in OU last time. Dual Screens alone didn't do it, he was capable of doing anything and due to his speed could pull it off at any time. Cosmic Power / Taunt set could instantly destroy any team that couldn't quickly hit it with boosted Super Effective hits. A mixed revenge killer set could easily find itself sweeping (though Scizor might help regulate that). I'm on the fence here. I'll say Uber mostly because we don't seem to have any better answers this gen compared to last gen, which pretty much just turned out to be use Scizor or Paralyze it. Deoxys S was devastating against all team types. Uber.

    Wobbuffet - When Wobbuffet was OU for that short period I stopped playing Pokemon along with several others due to how frustrating Wobbuffet is to play against. Yeah Encore is weaker, but it still guarantees a free setup. Its not like you're going to just sit there for 4+ turns. Wobb also eliminates Scarfers from doing much of anything. He can Encore-Tickle walls until they struggle or are wiped out by TTar Pursuit. Broken or not it changed the meta game in a bad way last time, and I don't see much in its favor this gen. Uber.

    Mew - I could write 20 pages of viable sets Mew can run off 4th gen moves alone. Every single one of which capable of causing untold havok. There are very few things that can switch in on Mew and win. Even Tyranitar his #1 counter loses against Nasty Plotted Aura Sphere, or Colbur Baton Pass, or Hypnosis, or Scarfed Transform, or Trick, or U-turn, or Will-O-Wisp, or Dual Screens or...

    .. :/ Uber.

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    Does anyone know if Pokemon Online has 5th gen battles yet?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Does anyone know if Pokemon Online has 5th gen battles yet?
    I heard they had a server up for a short period of time though it was removed due to lack of incorporating mechanic changes. I doubt they will have it before PL though since they are backed by Smogon who is likely to figure out all the mechanics before anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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    Yes and no. They are testing the new mons and mechanics on a private server. They still have a ton of bugs, but they're working on it. Coyote frequents the smogon "new mechanics" thread like every day, so I'm pretty confident he's gonna have it up and running properly asap.

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    I've always questioned why Wynaut was an uber (it's a lesser Wobufett, let it be). Now that we have the pre-evo stone, it could be more destructive than Wobufett.
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    Has someone shown you the calcs regarding Porygon2 w/ Prevo stone vs. Lugia yet? Essentially, it's even better in the physical department, and nearly as good in the special department.

    Besides, from all indications, Stall's gonna be a little weak this gen. Perhaps Lugia will be able to make it more viable.

    In addition, have you thought about testing an OU Kyumeru?
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    If i may ask, what is "PL"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb08045 View Post
    If i may ask, what is "PL"?
    PL is Pokemon Lab. It is the recently released simulator known in its development stages as Shoddy Battle 2. Head over to Smogon to download it if you wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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    Cool, so will this replace the current Shoddy when finish?

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb08045 View Post
    Cool, so will this replace the current Shoddy when finish?
    Yes it will, right now it still lacks an UU ladder (unless its updated since I last checked) and has various small bugs, though in the long run it will replace Shoddy and get 5th gen updates. They stopped updating the first Shoddy for the purpose of creating this to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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    May I ask why the pony is banned?

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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by hol123 View Post
    May I ask why the pony is banned?
    As stated in the OP, all unreleased event pokes are banned. They will be unbanned whenever they are released in some kind of event. This includes the Water horse, Meloetta, and possibly Genosekuto if he isn't Uber for other reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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    Deoxys (all forms) - Normal form however should be noted that it has less Attack than Metagross
    Metagross - 135
    Deoxys - 150

    ???

    I'm all for the banning of all Deoxys forms except Deoxys-D, since with Prevo Stone it'll probably sit on the same level as Porygon2 or Dusclops (except it can Spike).

    Note that this comes from someone who has played one match of 5th gen competitive, but I really don't think Deoxys (except -D) will have changed in brokenness much at all. All 3 offensive Deoxys forms can sweep easily late game and lead fantastically, so they're broken imo.

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    Hasty Deoxys has less attack than Adamant Metagross. Not to mention most Deoxys won't run its crappy Psychic STAB.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    IN THE BATHROOM!
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    222

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    Maybe we should only ban Blazikin with Speed Boost.

    Also, why is Drizzle + Swift Swim banned while Drought + Chlorophyll and Sand Steam + Sand Runner are allowed?

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by AudinoGlitch View Post
    Maybe we should only ban Blazikin with Speed Boost.

    Also, why is Drizzle + Swift Swim banned while Drought + Chlorophyll and Sand Steam + Sand Runner are allowed?
    Both of those issues have been addressed many times in this thread. Just go back a few pages and you'll find your answer.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    311

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    Quote Originally Posted by AudinoGlitch View Post
    Maybe we should only ban Blazikin with Speed Boost.

    Also, why is Drizzle + Swift Swim banned while Drought + Chlorophyll and Sand Steam + Sand Runner are allowed?
    In my personal opinion, Chlorophyll users tend to be grass, which is not an ideal defensive typing, and the only Sand Rush users are Excadrill and Stoutland. Stoutland is rarely seen in OU, and Excadrill is checked by stuff like Conkelldurr and Breloom.

  25. #25

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    I think all 6 of the Pokemon should be banned. Allowing them will just create a lot of drama and complaints. Banning them won't hurt anyone as you would just choose different Pokemon. I think it's a lot easier to not allow them and have everyone satisfied.

    I'm all for fairness, and if people have mixed opinions on certain Pokemon, I think it's safe to ban them right off the bat.

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