Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[Phate]

I think all 6 of the Pokemon should be banned. Allowing them will just create a lot of drama and complaints. Banning them won't hurt anyone as you would just choose different Pokemon. I think it's a lot easier to not allow them and have everyone satisfied.

I'm all for fairness, and if people have mixed opinions on certain Pokemon, I think it's safe to ban them right off the bat.

[Lord of Music]

I remember when Smogon unbanned Deoxys-s for a bit. Although it didn't quite revolutionize the way people built teams as Garchomp (who should be on this Ubers list, shouldn't it?), a LOT of people used it, and quite successfully I might add. I remember it to be one of the most annoying leads and pokemon to deal with in general, and while being annoying probably doesn't grant something uber status, it sparked a number of special defense oriented pokemon such as Drapion (or even Bulky Ttar) to become semi-staples.
In theory, I think OU in general may be able to handle Deoxys-S, however referencing an old Smogon defenition of uber status: "a pokemon that very heavily influences the OU metagame and the creation process of every team" or blah, something like that.
I guess what I'm saying is that if it becomes TOO MUCH of a hassle to deal with that people will have to come up with two or three pokemon combinations to effectively get rid of it, it may have to be Uber.
Of course, this means that it's up to the testers to verify whether or not this is true.

With all the hard-hitting pokemon, I guess Deoxys-D would be reasonable for OU, but again, I'm leaving this up to testers as I've had no experience with it.

Deoxys and Deoxys-A though are a different story. Not even the pseudo-legendaries of OU have the brutal combination of attacking and speed stats, with excellent moves to boot. I may be missing something right now, but at the top of my head I can't think of any way these two will not be able to absolutely dominate OU.

Wobb is another one that was tested in the past and remained in Uber, and even with this pretty much new metagame, no one can deny the sheer usefulness/destructiveness of Shadow Tag, which, with correct prediction, essentially nets a free kill (at least one a game.)

Just my two cents.

[jellsprout]

Priority Taunt/Encore and a non-support phazing move (Dragon Tail) are enough to guarantee Deoxys-S a spot in OU. Especially with your opponent's team being visible before the start of the battle, Deoxys-S isn't nearly as effective doing the things that made him Uber previous generation. Obviously OU.

Deoxys-S and Deoxys-N suffer from pretty severe 4 moveslot syndrome. Without HP Fire they are taken out by Steels. Without Superpower by Tyranitar and Normals. Without Thunderbolt by bulky Waters. Without Ice Beam by Dragons. They also enjoy having Extreme Speed and a reliable STAB. And even then they are reliable countered by Spiritomb and Dusclops. Under the Rain or if you mispredict the switch they are also hard countered by Metagross, Jirachi and various other Steels. Then there is also the problem they can't switch into any attack at all. Probably OU.

Deoxys-D already wasn't the defensive titan anymore last gen. It was mainly banned for as a bulky mid-game set-upper. It's defenses are even less precious than previous gen and its Speed isn't too good either this gen. Probably OU.

Mew has the same problem as Deoxys-S: priority Taunt/Encore and a phazing move that can't be Taunted. For Mew these problems are even greater. It could still try a sweeping set on its own with its various +2 set-up moves, but its STAB isn't that great and its offensive stats are pretty poor unboosted. Probably OU.

I would also like to bring up Manaphy. Tail Glow now boosts Sp. Attack by 3 levels, instead of 2. There is also Politoed to provide eternal rain. A bulky Tail Glow set could wreak havoc.

[Blue Harvest]

Priority Taunt/Encore

http://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/mi...ousheart.shtml

Literally the only one who gets that ability and doesn't totally suck is Borutorosu (Electric / Flying Genie). He looks like a solid OU though. Nasty Plot / Thunderbolt / Taunt / filler. Sucks when you Taunt a LO sweeper Deoxys.

and a non-support phazing move (Dragon Tail) are enough to guarantee Deoxys-S a spot in OU.

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/dragontail.shtml
Nidoqueen, Prevo Stone Lickitung, Stall Gyarados and Milotic are probably the only good users of this move. I would cross Nidoqueen and Milotic off the list since neither were very good last gen for most teams barring some rare examples.

Especially with your opponent's team being visible before the start of the battle,

Ah that doesn't help much. If your opponent has a Metagross / Heatran / Gyarados / Deoxys S / Garchomp / Latios can you immediately say for sure Deoxys is a lead? Also with the above example how do you know they're not bluffing, and lead with offensive Deoxys? What do you do when your genie thing gets 2HKOed by LO Ice Beam? Yes its true you may be less likely to lead with Heatran if you think they run Dual Screens but its not like seeing Deoxys immediately means hes going to lead.

Deoxys-S isn't nearly as effective doing the things that made him Uber previous generation. Obviously OU.

I wouldn't say obviously OU but I will admit stall teams have a much easier time with him now.

Deoxys-S and Deoxys-N suffer from pretty severe 4 moveslot syndrome.

Do you mean Deoxys A?

Without HP Fire they are taken out by Steels. Without Superpower by Tyranitar and Normals. Without Thunderbolt by bulky Waters. Without Ice Beam by Dragons. They also enjoy having Extreme Speed and a reliable STAB.

I agree, though its not as easy as you make it sound (unless you do mean Deoxys S, hes not too hard to wall).

And even then they are reliable countered by Spiritomb and Dusclops.

Spiritomb sucks lol. But I do agree.

Under the Rain or if you mispredict the switch they are also hard countered by Metagross, Jirachi and various other Steels.

Only if they run Special Defense EVs (Jirachi doesn't need to).

Then there is also the problem they can't switch into any attack at all. Probably OU.

Kind of goes both ways here.

I'm biased to support Deoxys N because I like it.. But there are some strong arguments to support it in OU.

Deoxys-D already wasn't the defensive titan anymore last gen. It was mainly banned for as a bulky mid-game set-upper. It's defenses are even less precious than previous gen and its Speed isn't too good either this gen. Probably OU.

I agree, except for the reason it was banned. I thought it was due to Cresselia level defenses + a move pool. Smogon never tested it did they?

Mew has the same problem as Deoxys-S: priority Taunt/Encore and a phazing move that can't be Taunted.

For the same reasons above I think this only helps stall. But its a fair point.

For Mew these problems are even greater. It could still try a sweeping set on its own with its various +2 set-up moves, but its STAB isn't that great and its offensive stats are pretty poor unboosted. Probably OU.

Who says Mew can only run two sets? Whats wrong with an offensively minder Baton passer? Skarmory and Swampert won't like taking a +2 Thunderbolt or Psychic. Tyranitar can't bring it down if it runs Colbur Berry. Don't forget Transform Mew who can run a ton of status moves. But it could be OU, who knows? Maybe we need a vote..

I would also like to bring up Manaphy. Tail Glow now boosts Sp. Attack by 3 levels, instead of 2. There is also Politoed to provide eternal rain. A bulky Tail Glow set could wreak havoc.

I don't think walling Manaphy was ever part of beating him. I'm just going to hope he doesn't run over 200 HP EVs and OHKO with Specs Latios or something. Tons of things are just too strong and fast for him to sweep.. Err.. I assume.

[Aerophoenix]

I would hazard to say Manaphy is Ubers (especially if the Tail Glow rumour is true. Mew is likely somewhere in-between; let's say Suspect for now.

Deoxys-S competes with other leads, so likely OU. Deoxys-A is Uber I'd say, but the others OU.

Garchomp, Latias, Latios and Sazando are all OU for now, but subject to change (especially based on soul dew). They may go to Ubers, as might some of the Genies (especially Randorosu with Encourage). Doubtful for the other trio of this generation, and probably even Meloia or Genosect to reach Ubers. Genosect might be Suspect though.

[Sweep Freak]

Within the iffy list, Deoxys Defense is the only one that should be aloud. Speed has to much potential as a Dual Screen, attack dominates OU, Normal just has good coverage.

[BaldWombat]

Within the iffy list, Deoxys Defense is the only one that should be aloud. Speed has to much potential as a Dual Screen, attack dominates OU, Normal just has good coverage.

Magic Coat now reflects screens and entry hazards back in addition to status. Magic Mirror ability is likely to do the same but is not confirmed yet. This means that being the fastest screener won't always work since Magic Coat has priority.

[TerraWolf]

So this verifies that Mence, Chomp and Wobb are unbanned in Serebii? Let the Serebii Trapping begin.

[d0nut]

So this verifies that Mence, Chomp and Wobb are unbanned in Serebii? Let the Serebii Trapping begin.

Yes, along with Skymin and Manaphy. I'm gonna see if I can get WiFi set up sometime later since their aren't going to be any properly working simulators for quite some time and I've already got three teams to test...

[BaldWombat]

This thread is for the discussion of what we want to ban while Smogon gets their Ubers tiers in order. It is not for any other tiering discussion. Stay on topic.

[TheNoob]

I'll make it quick.

Mew ban
All Deoxys ban
Wobbuffet no ban

And ofc Garchomp and Salamence no ban.
What pokemon communities like smogon think they are to put them into ubers and ban them.

Nintendo/Gamefreak only can decide who gets banned. Official.

[jesusfreak94]

I'll make it quick.

Mew ban
All Deoxys ban
Wobbuffet no ban

And ofc Garchomp and Salamence no ban.
What pokemon communities like smogon think they are to put them into ubers and ban them.

Nintendo/Gamefreak only can decide who gets banned. Official.

Nintendo and Gamefreak don't create competitive communities for people who want to have serious battles. Smogon creates these tiers and bans certain Pokemon because the people that are serious about competitive notice that they are too powerful, or the tiers are to focused because of them. Smogon is like a Congress, not a dictator.

[ParaChomp]

Meloetta deserves to be OU. You need to use Ancient Song for it to change form. In it's voice forme, it has very weak defence and is easy to take care of with a strong dark type move. Ancient Song is a weak and the opponent can easily see this coming and switch into a ghost type. Aside from that, it's step forme is comparable to sky forme Shaymin (who is already banned). Also, I'm curious if you can use alternate formes online now.

[Blue Harvest]

Meloetta deserves to be OU. You need to use Ancient Song for it to change form. In it's voice forme, it has very weak defence and is easy to take care of with a strong dark type move. Ancient Song is a weak and the opponent can easily see this coming and switch into a ghost type. Aside from that, it's step forme is comparable to sky forme Shaymin (who is already banned). Also, I'm curious if you can use alternate formes online now.

I agree. But its impossible to get Meloetta right now since its an event Poke that wasn't released yet.

Edit: I'm putting Deoxys A in Ubers, since the only way it will be possibly unbanned is if Deoxys N turns out to be extremely underwhelming. Deoxys D is also being unbanned, due to its just good enough defensive stats and how almost everyone seems to vote him OU.

[ParaChomp]

I agree. But its impossible to get Meloetta right now since its an event Poke that wasn't released yet.

Edit: I'm putting Deoxys A in Ubers, since the only way it will be possibly unbanned is if Deoxys N turns out to be extremely underwhelming. Deoxys D is also being unbanned, due to its just good enough defensive stats and how almost everyone seems to vote him OU.

There are always hackers but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Deoxys N in OU seems good, not as flimsy but still really flimsy. Deoxys D I can see being abused by Taunt and Recover doesn't get it far because of its low HP. Anyways, everything else seems good. The other events should still be questioned whether or not to make them ubers in the future.

[GolemGuy]

Seriously, have you seen the Lugia vs. P2 w/ Evo Stone calcs yet?

I believe Mew, Deoxys D and S, Lugia, Manaphy, the Lati Twins (soul dew banned though), Shaymin-S and obviously Chomp and Mence should be subtracted from last gen's ban list for the time being.

[Blue Harvest]

Seriously, have you seen the Lugia vs. P2 w/ Evo Stone calcs yet?

Yes, and its a terrible argument. Unlike Porygon 2, Lugia has more than 6 usable moves and some real speed to back it. Not to mention a Recovering Lugia with "Shield Dust" or whatever its new ability is will be all but impossible to kill without a Choice Band Tyranitar. It can also use Pressure and Reflect to annihilate any problems he would have had with physical moves. It can run Calm Mind and Reflect to simply NOT DIE to any hits. Porygon 2 can tank, but hes not immortal.

I believe Mew, Deoxys D and S, Lugia, Manaphy, the Lati Twins (soul dew banned though), Shaymin-S and obviously Chomp and Mence should be subtracted from last gen's ban list for the time being.

I agree, except for Mew and possibly Deoxys S. Maybe we should have a vote?

[:wub:disc]

I agree, except for Mew and possibly Deoxys S. Maybe we should have a vote?

the guy included Lugia as well which you trashed in your previous post so

Deoxys-S idk about. if it is unbanned the Mischievious Heart Taunters like Borutorosu and Erufuun would probably be used as leads; unlike 4th gen these two stop it from setting up completely. Deoxys of course gets Ice Beam which is trouble but it does have to forego a moveslot. i don't think i played when Deo-S was unbanned but i think it used Superpower to take out Tar, right? if my memory is correct and this is the case it might have to choose between IB and Superpower which restricts it greatly. could be borderline but i imagine the amount of suspicion i have is not exclusive and so i'd say unban it for the moment.

Mew i'd say no. Tail Glow is now +3 so Baton Passing becomes even deadlier not to mention Shell Crack and oh i don't know every other move ever. all around base 100 defences are certainly nothing to scoff at and since Mence was considered too unpredictable last gen i'd imagine this thing would be even worse.

the other one i'm not sure on is Manaphy due to the infinite rain and aforementioned Tail Glow boost making everyone run Tar (which is probably OHKO'd by STAB surf now that i think about it) or Abomasnow and so this thing would probably cause a huge amount of centralization in the metagame which i feel would cause this to be banned in the long run. then again, this factors in Dream World which you may be opposed to due to this probably being used on wi-fi (though on that note you did mention the dream world Multi Scale Lugia in your tirade in the above post).

[d0nut]

I agree, except for Mew and possibly Deoxys S. Maybe we should have a vote?

I don't think a vote would be a bad idea unless uncompetitive plays come in like they have been known to do. Mew, Deoxys-S, and maybe Wobbuffet could all be voted on if you want to open a new thread or something. I don't think anyone should be opposed to allowing D-D in OU at least at the moment as there is no good reason to support banning it at this point. Mew has a huge movepool and good all round stats, Deoxys-S has the best Speed in the game and a great support and offensive movepool, and Wobbuffet is Wobbuffet.

[Blue Harvest]

I wasn't involved in the Manaphy tests so I can't really say anything about how it plays. I guess I'll put it back on suspect.

I'll double check with the other mods but I'm sure we can get a vote up. We can either vote now, or dump the suspects into OU and ban things people complain about (Just like Smogon!).