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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #51
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    I think that all forms of deoxys bar defense should be banned as I can't really imagine how a broken lead that sets up so many hazards can be beaten with OU like stuff. The attack form, imo is just too powerful and can do to much damage.

    With mew, its awesome support movepool is too great and under dual screens makes it just like how annoying it is in ubers. Also, donut, mew is used much more often as a SR lead in ubers, not a BP user.

    However, with wobba, I really struggle to find why I wouldn't use shanderaa now so I think that it deserves to be retested. Also, you need to think about wynaut.

    I'm also not convinced about darkrai as its stats are still quite low and we should test more of that before we are sure that it is uber.
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  2. #52
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    Meloetta in Uber made me cry, although it's only reason [i]might[/b] be that it's not obtainable yet.
    Mew not in Uber made me yay.
    ~ Reinier

    Quote Originally Posted by FoldingScreen View Post
    imo MixPedo could work here

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by calze6 View Post
    I'm also not convinced about darkrai as its stats are still quite low and we should test more of that before we are sure that it is uber.
    Okay, okay, delete this if it's off topic. I realize we're talking about singles here, so this does not apply, but Darkrai is the single most feared mon in doubles. Dark Void is unbelievably broken. 80% accuracy for BOTH your mons PLUS Bad Dreams is a terrible idea. I would assume it would be simmilar in singles though. The ability to easily put one mon (two in doubles) to sleep and munch away at it's HP without doing ANYTHING AT ALL is quite honestly broken. Its speed, SAtk, Moveset, and Ability combined are just... terrible... >_?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by calze6 View Post
    I think that all forms of deoxys bar defense should be banned as I can't really imagine how a broken lead that sets up so many hazards can be beaten with OU like stuff. The attack form, imo is just too powerful and can do to much damage.

    With mew, its awesome support movepool is too great and under dual screens makes it just like how annoying it is in ubers. Also, donut, mew is used much more often as a SR lead in ubers, not a BP user.

    However, with wobba, I really struggle to find why I wouldn't use shanderaa now so I think that it deserves to be retested. Also, you need to think about wynaut.

    I'm also not convinced about darkrai as its stats are still quite low and we should test more of that before we are sure that it is uber.
    The lead metagame has changed considerably with teams being shown before the start of each battle and then selecting your lead. Also Magic Coat now reflects all entry hazards in addition to status, among other things, so the days of blindly spamming entry hazards are over.

    Quote Originally Posted by YOOMTAH View Post
    Meloetta in Uber made me cry, although it's only reason [i]might[/b] be that it's not obtainable yet.
    Mew not in Uber made me yay.
    All pokemon that are not obtainable are banned to start out with and when they are released we will retier them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattj View Post
    Okay, okay, delete this if it's off topic. I realize we're talking about singles here, so this does not apply, but Darkrai is the single most feared mon in doubles. Dark Void is unbelievably broken. 80% accuracy for BOTH your mons PLUS Bad Dreams is a terrible idea. I would assume it would be simmilar in singles though. The ability to easily put one mon (two in doubles) to sleep and munch away at it's HP without doing ANYTHING AT ALL is quite honestly broken. Its speed, SAtk, Moveset, and Ability combined are just... terrible... >_?
    We are talking about singles, but Dark Void is banned in doubles as if it puts both pokemon to sleep, its user breaks sleep clause and automatically loses the match.

  5. #55
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    I dont think Shanderaa is any way Uber. Its a bit fragile(considering the huge offensive stats of certain pokemon), and can get destroyed by priority moves, like maybe a Sucker Punch. And it doesnt have Shadow Tag yet. I dont know much about the competitive metagame, but i keep tabs on it, and i plan to start Shoddy so dont attack me if i'm wrong!

    But Ononokusu is, well, a bit shaky. 147 base attack is huge and 97 speed is deadly, and he might go on the route of Garchomp later on. Sazando is pretty comfortable at OU though imo.
    Formerly, Chariking

  6. #56
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    As of this point, Dream World Abilities are banned on any pokemon that has not been confirmed to of been released in the Dream World. Feel free to discuss them to your hearts content but they should not be factored into tiering or used at this time. We will make sure to keep track of what is available and what isn't as we move forward in the metagame.

  7. #57
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    I'll update the OP tonight, unless some other mod wants to do it. I should be back around 11.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaldWombat View Post
    We are talking about singles, but Dark Void is banned in doubles as if it puts both pokemon to sleep, its user breaks sleep clause and automatically loses the match.
    It's banned in doubles? Like... OU Doubles? It's legal in VGC Doubles (09 and 10 via smeargle). They don't have a sleep clause. Just Dark Void by itself isn't all that terrible (Fake Out/Taunt/2HKO/etc). Spore is actually a little more tricky because of it's 100% accuracy. But pair Dark Void with Bad Dreams and... good GOD!

  9. #59
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    Even in Ubers Darkrai has no trouble killing half a team. I used Sub Darkrai almost exclusively and even for teams with a Blissey it was hard to take out.

    Now with the new sleep mechanic I say good luck to anyone getting a Dark Voided Pokemon awake again.

  10. #60
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    There were no Smogon 4th Gen Doubles rules. Because Shoddy didn't support Doubles, there was no controlled environment to test them in, so Smogon never got a chance to create an "official" banlist or ruleset.

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  11. #61
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    There was no official tier, but from what I've seen its pretty much the same as the singles ban list just with Latios, Latias, Salamence and Garchomp allowed. Probably some others I'm forgetting too.

  12. #62
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    In OU Doubles, as it was called, Sleep Clause would still be in effect so Dark Void is illegal. We have used that in the WiFi forum for the entirety of 4th gen.

  13. #63
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    With Pokemon Online becoming the #1 batting simulator and our own tier list incomplete may I suggest blatantly stealing theirs? (Kioku's)

    Arceus
    Darkrai
    Deoxys
    Deoxys-a
    Deoxys-s
    Dialga
    Giratina
    Giratina-o
    Groudon
    Ho-Oh
    Kyogre
    Latios
    Lugia
    Mew
    Mewtwo
    Palkia
    Rayquaza
    Reshiram
    Shaymin-s
    Wobbuffet

    Zekrom
    Kyuremu

    Of course since this is probably Wifi we will add Dream World abilities and "unobtainable" event Pokemon to that list. If people disagree about some of the banned Pokemon we can take a vote. Orange pokes are "suspect" and we can have a vote on what people want where.

    Edit: Oh, lol. Archangel already posted the same exact thing in Wifi.

  14. #64
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    regular Deoxys i don't care about, i've never used it and don't even know its base stats. it's like a mini Deo-A i think...?

    ok i just checked, those stats may be a problem. idk about this one.

    Deo-S may or may not be broken. innocent until proven guilty, unban it to begin with.

    Latios can't get Soul Dew so i don't have a problem with it.

    i still don't like Mew and would prefer if it stayed banned, however idk how many useful Mews will be active on Wi-Fi anyway so i don't particularly care about this one

    i don't remember how you change Shaymin to Shaymin-S and don't know if it stays as Shaymin-S when traded over to a gen V game (probably would) but in any case i don't think it's good enough to be banned by any means. it's gay, yes, but not ban worthy

    Wobba i don't like. period. does this include Wynaut as well? while i believe its ban was hugely unjustified in 4th gen as it probably wasn't that broken but with the Prevo Stone i imagine it will be much closer to Wobba's usefulness (albeit with less speed, which was one of the selling points of Wobba in the first place what with the whole Encore and Tickle trapping but SHUT Usdfhduigndfj'k)

    Kyuremu is completely underwhelming, i think i've faced two and they've done nothing except fire off a Draco Meteor or die. worth testing.

    then again, when i mention that stuff is 'worth testing', does anybody want to spend an annoyingly long amount of time on wi-fi testing stuff?

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  15. #65
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    Kyuremu can't hold a candle to the current dragons allowed in OU. Decent stats ruined by a completely redundant typing and poor movepool, no immunity / resistances to any of the entry hazards and is walled to hell by all of the common steel types in the game.

    Shaymin-S can be obtained in Black / White, and while it does seem cheap, I'd rather use Jirachi, which is just as crippling and has better typing.

    Soul Dew can't be obtained in Black / White. Without it, I think Lati@s aren't that bad in OU with all the new additions to game.

    That's really all I have to say about the list. The rest can stay uber for all I care.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post


    Deoxys
    Latios



    Of course since this is probably Wifi we will add Dream World abilities and "unobtainable" event Pokemon to that list. If people disagree about some of the banned Pokemon we can take a vote. Pokemon in Orange are the arguable "suspects". Orange pokes are "suspect" and we can have a vote on what people want where.
    why is Deoxys a suspect? Base 150 Atk/Sp.A/Spe doesn't seem just slightly broken, with access to extremespeed?

    Latios maybe, assuming of course soul dew isn't allowed. All though Stab Specs Draco Meteor is going to hurt just about everything, if not just outright ohko it.

  17. #67
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    Mew and Deoxys both seem Ubers to me, with their diverse movepools (in Mew's case) and great stats (in Deoxys' case).
    I would also say Latios is Ubers; its offensive capabilities are devastating, even without Soul Dew.
    What the hell is Kyuremu doing there? Its stats are underwhelming compared to other dragons. It's got a weakness to Stealth Rock to boot. Maybe Ubers later.
    Wobuffet I am iffy about; I would err on the side of caution and call it Ubers.
    Deoxys-S looks OU to me, but again it's iffy.
    Shaymin-S seems OU to me; its stats are certainly good, and Serene Grace Air Slashing with a Choice Scarf is also horrifying, but it's no better than Jirachi when it comes down to it.

    Also where's Deoxys-D? Is it in OU just because stalling is not as viable right now?

    Honestly, though this might strike some as weird, I am honestly thinking we should make a "Suspect" tier, in the same way we have BL. It's mostly for pokemon who are too good for OU, but not that great that they'll see much limelight in Ubers. This would include most pokes on this list.

    I would also add Meloia and Genosect to Ubers, personally.

    I wish we could check this but the Pokemon Online 5th gen servers seem to be down. If not, please link.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11tjcoulombe View Post
    why is Deoxys a suspect? Base 150 Atk/Sp.A/Spe doesn't seem just slightly broken, with access to extremespeed?
    Perhaps, although those 50/50/50 defenses and horrendous typing are making me doubt.

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  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Storm View Post
    Kyuremu can't hold a candle to the current dragons allowed in OU. Decent stats ruined by a completely redundant typing and poor movepool, no immunity / resistances to any of the entry hazards and is walled to hell by all of the common steel types in the game.

    Shaymin-S can be obtained in Black / White, and while it does seem cheap, I'd rather use Jirachi, which is just as crippling and has better typing.

    Soul Dew can't be obtained in Black / White. Without it, I think Lati@s aren't that bad in OU with all the new additions to game.

    That's really all I have to say about the list. The rest can stay uber for all I care.
    Actually Kyuremu can use Focus Blast to get through several common Steels such as Nattorei and Heatran. Its problem is more with its bad typing and stat distribution. Its ability does it no favors either. It is pretty outclassed too...

    I personally think Shaymin-S is broken based on testing in 4th gen. It managed to stand out among other suspects such as Latios and Garchomp in Stage 3 and was probably the most broken of those suspects (bar Deoxys-S, but he was removed before the round was complete to begin with.)

    Soul Dew isn't allowed yet that I know of, and even if it were it would be banned anyways. The Latis both deserve a fair shot in OU this gen imo.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellsprout View Post
    Perhaps, although those 50/50/50 defenses and horrendous typing are making me doubt.
    offencively it is equal to if not superior to Mewtwo (4 less SAtk points made up for by 40 more base Attack and 20 more base Speed) so it will most likely hit hard enough to make up for its typing. i dunno though. as you said its defences are frail but i'd think it'd have a way to get around that (working as a revenge killer of sorts or something).

    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut
    I personally think Shaymin-S is broken based on testing in 4th gen.
    but this isn't 4th gen.

    <-----

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellsprout View Post
    Perhaps, although those 50/50/50 defenses and horrendous typing are making me doubt.
    It could either sub on something that won't hurt it (blissey) or it can use a sash (although that's not all that reliable). It has superpower to annahilate Dark types (and steels) and can use fire punch/HP Fire for Scizor.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by :wub:disc View Post
    offencively it is equal to if not superior to Mewtwo (4 less SAtk points made up for by 40 more base Attack and 20 more base Speed) so it will most likely hit hard enough to make up for its typing. i dunno though. as you said its defences are frail but i'd think it'd have a way to get around that (working as a revenge killer of sorts or something).
    Mewtwo also has 106/90/90 Defenses. Mewtwo can actually switch in or take a priority attack (min/min Mewtwo takes 50.1% - 58.9% from Scizor's Bullet Punch). Mewtwo has a far better movepool and better balanced stats, allowing it to also run a supporting set with Taunt and Dual Screens, a statussing set, an set-up offensive set or a bulky offensive set, as well as the anti-lead and all-out offense sets. Deoxys-N, on the other hand, can only run a suicide lead set or an offensive set, neither of which are very effective due to Deoxys's frailty.

    Quote Originally Posted by 11tjcoulombe View Post
    It could either sub on something that won't hurt it (blissey) or it can use a sash (although that's not all that reliable). It has superpower to annahilate Dark types (and steels) and can use fire punch/HP Fire for Scizor.
    With your proposed set of E-Speed/Substitute/SuperPower/[HP Fire/Fire Punch], how do you propose getting through the Ghosts, Dragons and other bulky Pokémon?

    252+ Attack Deoxys-N holding Life Orb:
    -1 E-Speed vs min/min Salamence: 33.5% - 39.6%
    E-Speed vs 252/0 Dragonite: 37.6% - 44.3%
    Fire Punch vs min/min Shandera w/o Flash Fire: 26.8% - 31.8%
    Fire Punch vs 252/252+ Dusclops w/ Preevo Stone: 18.3% - 21.8%
    Fire Punch vs 252/0 Metagross: 57.1% - 67.6%
    E-Speed vs 240/216+ Swampert: 27.4% - 32.4%
    SuperPower vs 240/216+ Swampert: 41.1% - 48.6%
    E-Speed vs 252/4 Gliscor: 32.3% - 38.1%
    E-Speed vs 252/4 Gligar w/ Preevo Stone: 26.6% - 31.4%

    252+ Sp. Attack Deoxys-N holding Life Orb:
    HP Fire vs 252/0 Metagross: 72.5% - 85.7%
    HP Fire vs 252/0 Dusclops w/ Preevo Stone: 22.9% - 27.1%
    HP Fire vs 252/0 Gliscor: 43.2% - 51.1%
    HP Fire vs 252/0 Gligar w/ Preevo Stone: 34.4% - 40.7%

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  23. #73
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    I've been in NYC for the past few days enjoying greatly the fact that I am 21 but I'll be back on the 17th. When I return I'll try to get back into this, but I would greatly appreciate if someone could randomly tell me of any updates from Smogon's banlist policy.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    I've been in NYC for the past few days enjoying greatly the fact that I am 21 but I'll be back on the 17th. When I return I'll try to get back into this, but I would greatly appreciate if someone could randomly tell me of any updates from Smogon's banlist policy.
    So far there hasn't been any change in policy. They still haven't put together an initial banlist which they probably won't use anyway considering most people are still leaning towards no bans at this point. Apparently they are mainly debating about Lugia. They don't seem to be in any kind of hurry since PL doesn't have 5th gen yet, though PO is actually pretty close and they have even incorporated seeing opponents team before matches on the ladder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    So far there hasn't been any change in policy. They still haven't put together an initial banlist which they probably won't use anyway considering most people are still leaning towards no bans at this point. Apparently they are mainly debating about Lugia. They don't seem to be in any kind of hurry since PL doesn't have 5th gen yet, though PO is actually pretty close and they have even incorporated seeing opponents team before matches on the ladder.
    Didn't most people vote no Ban List in the public poll because they thought the Ban List option would be all current Ubers or some BS like that?

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