Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[Wishing Star]

I shoulda said "changed meta."

Oh, okay.

Thanks for crushing my dreams of LC 100! ):

[MatchMaster]

Garchomp back in OU... hard decision. Choice Scarf Kyurem-W revenges all but Choice Scarf variants. But with Sand Veil, and the increased popularity of Sandstorm in OU, it would seem broken. Rough Skin, on the other hand, has been more popular than I thought it would, making Garchomp more useful outside of Sandstorm teams, but in the end I still think it's broken.

[That Crazy Russian™]

i honestly think, with the amount of new, anti-dragon sets going around now, as well as mamo, it wouldn't do well in ou. rephrased, "it would do well, but not scizor well". see, kyurem-b. not that big an impact as keldeo/ditto/thunderus-t were.

if they go with the proposed sand veil/ sand veil + sandstream ban(any feedback on that? couldnt find the thread), it might do ok. it has a skimpy movepool, but its sub set would still be decent, even used in the (more or less)same way. switch in on a non-existent threat, sub on switch. but now, so many things beat it. keldeo, possibly terrakion(check), genesect(check), soooo many others. basically, only sand veil is really holding it back.

@Ifi: i pretty much have to agree with d0nut. to say all smogon is elitist is wrong. they actually make fair decisions, based on public opinion. to disrespect them is childish and rude. to say you are "an expert battler" is also cocky.

too bad i suck at laddering :/ wouldve decided on shtuff

[Divine Retribution]

Is Solar Power Charizard still NU? Because if he is, he shouldn't be.

[tokyo/seven]

Is Solar Power Charizard still NU? Because if he is, he shouldn't be.

It is...it would seem that the fact Charizard has a x4 weakness to Stealth Rocks and so-so stats compared to Pokes in a higher tier overshadow Solar Power...which I totally agree with...Charizard is just too threatened to last very long even in NU...and it doesn't have the monster stats or movepool like Volcarona to even out its weaknesses (Has access to Quiver Dance+Sub+Morning Sun). And even Volcarona seems to be more trouble than it's worth sometimes...I guess the the only really huge reason no one uses Charizard anymore is because since Stealth Rocks came into the metagame it just became more trouble than it was worth to try and make a team able support Charizard's needs.

[Divine Retribution]

He seems to be on every sun team ever. His Sp. Atk reaches a respectable 464 under the Sun, unboosted, which might lend some serious effects to a Scarfed set.

[jesusfreak94]

Charizard is nowhere near being on every Sun team. Sun has a little over 10% usage, while Charizard's is more like 1.7%. The main reason for this is that it's such a high maintenance Pokemon. Rapid Spin and/or Magic Bounce support is an absolute must if you want to keep it alive, especially factoring in the damage you take from Solar Power. While its SpA is absolutely devestating in the Sun, and it's speed is pretty good, it's defenses aren't letting it take many hits, an even worse problem when factoring the raw amounts of passive damage it's vulnerable to. Not only that, but if the weather changes, Charizard's SpA drops to a more average level, and it becomes a pretty sub-par Pokemon once again. This is different from say Venusaur, who can still threaten other weather decently enough with its typing, bulk, decent power/coverage, and possibly Sleep Powder.

[tokyo/seven]

Charizard is nowhere near being on every Sun team. Sun has a little over 10% usage, while Charizard's is more like 1.7%. The main reason for this is that it's such a high maintenance Pokemon. Rapid Spin and/or Magic Bounce support is an absolute must if you want to keep it alive, especially factoring in the damage you take from Solar Power. While its SpA is absolutely devestating in the Sun, and it's speed is pretty good, it's defenses aren't letting it take many hits, an even worse problem when factoring the raw amounts of passive damage it's vulnerable to. Not only that, but if the weather changes, Charizard's SpA drops to a more average level, and it becomes a pretty sub-par Pokemon once again. This is different from say Venusaur, who can still threaten other weather decently enough with its typing, bulk, decent power/coverage, and possibly Sleep Powder.

Yeah I NEVER see Charizard. And yeah Sun usage is low compared to other weathers. Admittedly it is probably the easiest to counter and the hardest to win a weather war with partially because Tales is easily the fastest out of the weather users...

[locket]

Is Solar Power Charizard still NU? Because if he is, he shouldn't be.

to put it in nu perspective: it's not that easy to spin. lol.

ever since cryogonal moved up, there have been a lack of options. experienced nu players are actually using shell smash torkoal as a rapid spin user because it gets just enough speed at +2 with the right investment to outspeed all of the spinblockers (except haunter/drifblim who doesn't want to switch into +0 fire blast) while being to ohko the ones that are threatening (golurk) and landing a 2hko on ones that can't do much back (misdreavus). of course, the issue with torkoal is that it's redundant with charizard in terms of typing, so it's a bit unfavorable. also for some reason, losetortle seems to be popular here, but by the time you're done using rapid spin with wartortle, chances are you've let a smart player set up a substitute and be at +1 by the time charizard comes in. :)

also, sucker punch and priority in general is really common in nu. you will never see a good nu player who doesn't have priority of some sort. charizard doesn't really do much else aside from setting up its own sun and attacking so it'll usually be cornered by common things like absol or skuntank.

[jesusfreak94]

Well, it appears that Aldaron has brought up the possiblity of banning Drizzle here. This has started a host of other discussion on possibly banning other weather as well, so this will really have to be something to watch and see how this turns out. Of course, it could also just be another one of the occasional complaints that just passes after a day or two, so you never know.

Personally, I'm not going to argue that Rain is extremely powerful, even more powerful than it was in BW1. Broken is another story, though, but I wouldn't be entirely unhappy with a ban on Drizzle. Of course, this might cause an increase in the already dangerous Sun, so it might be banned as a result. Even Sand might suffer a similar fate due to the raw power of Sand Force Landorus-I and Sand Rush Stoutland/Sandslash. On the other hand, there's no telling what such a set of bans might change. We could give Pokemon like Blaziken, Manaphy, and Excadrill retests if this happens, but the OU usage list will obviously change dramatically. Pokemon like Venusaur, Gastrodon, and Toxicroak, whose main niches are related to their uses in or against weather, will most likely drop to lower tiers, and some Pokemon who might have been held back by the prevalence of weather would rise.

Definitely something to watch out for in the upcoming weeks.

[tokyo/seven]

Well, it appears that Aldaron has brought up the possiblity of banning Drizzle here. This has started a host of other discussion on possibly banning other weather as well, so this will really have to be something to watch and see how this turns out. Of course, it could also just be another one of the occasional complaints that just passes after a day or two, so you never know.

Personally, I'm not going to argue that Rain is extremely powerful, even more powerful than it was in BW1. Broken is another story, though, but I wouldn't be entirely unhappy with a ban on Drizzle. Of course, this might cause an increase in the already dangerous Sun, so it might be banned as a result. Even Sand might suffer a similar fate due to the raw power of Sand Force Landorus-I and Sand Rush Stoutland/Sandslash. On the other hand, there's no telling what such a set of bans might change. We could give Pokemon like Blaziken, Manaphy, and Excadrill retests if this happens, but the OU usage list will obviously change dramatically. Pokemon like Venusaur, Gastrodon, and Toxicroak, whose main niches are related to their uses in or against weather, will most likely drop to lower tiers, and some Pokemon who might have been held back by the prevalence of weather would rise.

Definitely something to watch out for in the upcoming weeks.

To tell you the truth the only reason I would be against a weather ban is because I don't feel like adjusting to yet another huge change in the metagame. If it weren't for that I guess I would not mind weather being banned. I don't use weather much anymore so it's really just one less thing for me to worry about. If any of the weather does get banned I think it would probably only be rain or sand. Sun and hail are not as good as the other two in my opinion. Like I said before sun is pretty easy to counter and winning a weather war can be difficult. And I guess everyone knows what the deal with hail is....that Ice typing >.> getting wrecked by every Scizor and fighting type in existence...of course this just my opinion.

[jesusfreak94]

Sun pretty much has been, and still is, the most powerful weather. The only reason Rain is being debated now and not Sun is because of the specific abusers. Sun honestly just has a huge raw power advantage that Rain doesn't have. After all, Keldeo's Hydro Pump is the most powerful Water attack Rain has to offer, and it's not quite enough to match Heatran and Volcarona's Fire Blasts, Darmanitan's Flare Blitz, or Victini's V-Create. While Rain boosted Water attacks can be handled easily by Pokemon like Jellicent, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Amoonguss, Latias, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Blissey/Chansey, etc., Sun boosted attacks are safely taken by pretty much Heatran, Dragonite (with Multiscale intact), and some Latias. Not to mention that since Sun has powerful moves on both sides, you can't just throw a specially bulky Pokemon like the pink blobs in front and block most of them like you can with Rain. There's also Chlorophyll users, which Rain has no equivalent of. Venusaur is the most prominent, having a super fast Sleep Powder or being able to sweep through teams at +2 after Growth. Honestly, a well built Sun team can be really hard to play around. The cookie-cutter Ninetales / Genesect / Dugtrio / Xatu / Victini / Venusaur Sun team can be especially tough to beat unless you're running Shed Shell Heatran (ew) or Mamoswine.

I'd say that if Rain were banned, Sun would easily be the next to go, and possibly Sand as well. Heck, I wouldn't be too surprised if Hail were suspected as well. Hail has never had such a good Blizzard spammer as Kyurem before, especially now that it has Earth Power and Roost, and you'd have to constantly deal with the additional Hail damage and Snow Cloak hax from the likes of Mamoswine and Froslass unless you run a weather move somewhere. Of course, there's really no way of really knowing what ould happen until we actually arrive at such a situation.

[Wishing Star]

Sun pretty much has been, and still is, the most powerful weather. The only reason Rain is being debated now and not Sun is because of the specific abusers. Sun honestly just has a huge raw power advantage that Rain doesn't have. After all, Keldeo's Hydro Pump is the most powerful Water attack Rain has to offer, and it's not quite enough to match Heatran and Volcarona's Fire Blasts, Darmanitan's Flare Blitz, or Victini's V-Create. While Rain boosted Water attacks can be handled easily by Pokemon like Jellicent, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Amoonguss, Latias, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Blissey/Chansey, etc., Sun boosted attacks are safely taken by pretty much Heatran, Dragonite (with Multiscale intact), and some Latias. Not to mention that since Sun has powerful moves on both sides, you can't just throw a specially bulky Pokemon like the pink blobs in front and block most of them like you can with Rain. There's also Chlorophyll users, which Rain has no equivalent of. Venusaur is the most prominent, having a super fast Sleep Powder or being able to sweep through teams at +2 after Growth. Honestly, a well built Sun team can be really hard to play around. The cookie-cutter Ninetales / Genesect / Dugtrio / Xatu / Victini / Venusaur Sun team can be especially tough to beat unless you're running Shed Shell Heatran (ew) or Mamoswine.

I pretty much agree with sun being the weather effect that packs the most power. Rain, while powerful, isn't quite as strong, but it's mainly backed up by less frail Pokémon (in terms of both typing and defensive stats), whereas most Pokémon that go well with sun just have a lot of power and are significantly worse defense-wise.

I'd say that if Rain were banned, Sun would easily be the next to go, and possibly Sand as well. Heck, I wouldn't be too surprised if Hail were suspected as well. Hail has never had such a good Blizzard spammer as Kyurem before, especially now that it has Earth Power and Roost, and you'd have to constantly deal with the additional Hail damage and Snow Cloak hax from the likes of Mamoswine and Froslass unless you run a weather move somewhere. Of course, there's really no way of really knowing what ould happen until we actually arrive at such a situation.

After rain, sun would very well be next on the go-list due to its power. Sand, too, because out of the two weathers that create residual damage, sand is the one that's more built-around (and thus, more popular). I can't say much about hail, since I don't see or use it often, but I just find it unfair that out of all weathers, hail could potentially be the only usable one. :/

[cooloolcool]

I actually don't find rain that challenging. A well built Sand team is more dangerous than Rain. Sun is crazy danger though. Ever faced Trick Room Victini? You're a dead man with Defensive Heatran. So yeah, Rain is overused like hell, but isn't that hard to beat.

[tokyo/seven]

So am I the only one who's never run into trouble with Sun? I can't be @.@

I don't think Kyu being a good Blizzard spammer is enough of a reason to get Hail banned...that huge amount of weaknesses still makes it rather easy to deal with...

[dewhinifier]

Usage Stats + Tier changes!!!!!

OU gained nothing...but lost a lot. Anyways...

Gothitelle is BL as previously reported
Mew down from OU to UU (always on that OU/UU border, might flip flop more in months to come)
Tornadus down from OU to UU (possible suspect test since UU is chansey-less compared to the last time it was UU?)
Meloetta down from OU to UU
Virizion down from OU to UU (that was coming any day)
Cofagrigus up from RU to UU
Stoutland down from UU to RU (no sand, no surprise)
Rapidash up from PU to NU
Articuno up from PU to NU
Electrode up from PU to NU
Metang down from RU to NU (molk failed)
Eelektross up from PU to NU
Ditto up from PU to NU (bark is worse than its bite, still trollish)
Cradily up from PU to NU
Zangoose up from PU to NU (Toxic boost is mean...I've gotten the opportunity to use one in a random battle)
Linoone down from NU to PU
Electabuzz down from NU to PU
Zebstrika down from NU to PU
Flareon down from NU to PU
Vileplume down from NU to PU
Marowak down from NU to PU
Gigalith down from NU to PU
Tangela down from NU to PU
Jumpluff down from NU to PU
Tauros down from NU to PU
Ursaring down from NU to PU
Rampardos down from NU to PU

We also got statistics for the CAP (create-a-pokemon) OU tier, the Suspect OU tier, the Little Cup OU tier, and the Ubers OU tier, all of which I'll include a spoiler for + a link to smogon's CAP page. Please note that these are NOT official tiers.

    Spoiler:- CAP OU:

Show Spoiler

 
Abomasnow, Arghonaut, Colossoil, Cyclohm, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Fidgit, Gastrodon, Genesect, Gliscor, Heatran, Kitsunoh, Krilowatt, Mollux, Necturna, Ninetales, Politoed, Pyroak, Revenankh, Salamence, Scizor, Stratagem, Syclant, Tomohawk, Tornadus-Therian, Tyranitar, Voodoom

CAP page
 

    Spoiler:- Suspect OU:

Show Spoiler

 
Suspect OU: Alakazam, Amoonguss, Breloom, Bronzong, Celebi, Cloyster, Deoxys-Defense, Dragonite, Dugtrio, Espeon, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Garchomp, Genesect, Gengar, Gliscor, Gothitelle, Haxorus, Heatran, Hippowdon, Infernape, Jellicent, Jirachi, Keldeo, Landorus, Landorus-Therian, Latias, Latios, Lucario, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Ninetales, Politoed, Reuniclus, Rotom-Wash, Salamence, Scizor, Skarmory, Starmie, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Volcarona

Differences between Suspect OU and Official OU:

In Standard OU but not Suspect OU: Abomasnow, Blissey, Chansey, Donphan, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Hydreigon, Jolteon, Metagross, Toxicroak, Vaporeon
In Suspect OU but not Standard OU: Amoonguss, Bronzong, Garchomp, Gothitelle

 

    Spoiler:- Ubers OU:

Show Spoiler

 
Ubers OU: Arceus, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Blaziken, Blissey, Darkrai, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Speed, Dialga, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Garchomp, Genesect, Giratina, Giratina-Origin, Gliscor, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kabutops, Kyogre, Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Latias, Latios, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-Sky, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus, Tyranitar, Zekrom
 

    Spoiler:- LC OU:

Show Spoiler

 
Little Cup OU: Abra, Aipom, Archen, Aron, Axew, Bronzor, Chinchou, Clamperl, Cottonee, Cranidos, Croagunk, Cubone, Diglett, Dratini, Drifloon, Drilbur, Duskull, Dwebble, Elekid, Ferroseed, Foongus, Frillish, Gastly, Hippopotas, Houndour, Larvesta, Lileep, Machop, Magnemite, Mienfoo, Misdreavus, Munchlax, Murkrow, Natu, Onix, Pawniard, Ponyta, Porygon, Scraggy, Shellder, Slowpoke, Snover, Staryu, Taillow, Timburr, Zorua
 

Loving that Kabutops is in Ubers OU. It's such a threat if you have nothing for it in ubers.

[Vandslaux]

The problem with Sun is that it has no way of switching into the other popular weathers, Rain and Sand. Doesn't help that Politoed and Tyranitar destroy Ninetales, and Ninetales takes about 65% from Pursuit.

Also, Tornadus will do fine in UU imo. We have Registeel (ok doesn't take Specs Focus Blast well), Bronzong, Scarf Rotom-H, plus other Scarfers for revenging it. I see Kingdra + Tornadus in rain being a good offensive core.

[Ilan]

Tornadus down from OU to UU (possible suspect test since UU is chansey-less compared to the last time it was UU?)
It is weird Tornadus-I is still stronger than thearian form.. and it is fast enough..

I am surprised ditto didn't make it to at least RU.. well he is NU..

[tokyo/seven]

The problem with Sun is that it has no way of switching into the other popular weathers, Rain and Sand. Doesn't help that Politoed and Tyranitar destroy Ninetales, and Ninetales takes about 65% from Pursuit.

Also, Tornadus will do fine in UU imo. We have Registeel (ok doesn't take Specs Focus Blast well), Bronzong, Scarf Rotom-H, plus other Scarfers for revenging it. I see Kingdra + Tornadus in rain being a good offensive core.

Tornadus seems to just bounce back and forth between OU and UU. Kinda like Mew does.

[Jb]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=83

About time.