Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[Zachmac]

Banning all forms of sleep? I think not. However, Spore is a sleep move with 100% accuracy. Almost no other move has the ability to shut down nearly any Pokemon in one turn like that, and the ones that can (OHKO moves) are banned. If Breloom comes in on something that can't outspeed and OHKO it and you have no Espeon/Xatu, something is going to sleep. So, perhaps Spore should be banned, but Venusaur's Sleep Powder has very shaky accuracy and ends up screwing Venusaur over half the time by giving a Heatran or Infernape a free turn to Fire Blast you to hell and back.

In the long run, 75% may not seem like that much, but it would give Venusaur the advantage by a good chunk more then half the time. In this case, the odds are actually on Venusaur's side.

I think they should lower the accuracy of spore instead of banning it. Lowering it to 80% makes it a lot less safe to use, and so less people may want to use it. If they still use it, like many probably will. They have a chance of losing their Breloom after a miss.

( I use a Breloom with spore btw :P)

Except smogon can't change game mechanics.

[dewhinifier]

What do you guys think of the idea of sleep being banned? Honestly, I find the status effect to be too powerful.

Without the sleep clause i'd totally agree that it would need to be banned. With it, I disagree, it's just something else that could be considered hax. However...calling it too powerful is just strange to me. Sure, it really makes some pokemon useless, but the 1 turn minimum and 3 turn maximum isn't as bad as it seems. Each time, you have a 50% chance of waking up and a 50% chance of staying asleep. Let's compare that to freeze, which is probably the best status available when facing any type of opponent. Since generation 2, pokemon only have a 20% chance of thawing out each turn.

Sleep isn't a large threat to a team that has a cleric which uses heal bell/aromatherapy or something that has hydration. The same can be said for freeze since everything mentioned rids team or a poke, respectively, of status. Even without any of this, playing smart against a poke that is a sleep inducer greatly dulls the idea that sleep is broken.

It's new mechanics mean that not only will rest talkers to absorb sleep attacks, but also that if you're forced to swap out, you have to start waking the pokemon up all over again.

What's wrong with trying to wake a sleep talker except when it's low on hp?

Sleep talkers aren't the only pokes that can absorb sleep. Natural cure pokes like starmie and celebi don't mind staying asleep especially when they can force a switch against the poke that put them to sleep. Hydration vaporeon is an option, albeit a very bad one vs sleep inducers like venusaur and breloom. Even pokes that already have a status can take sleep and not care.

Anything can swap in on a sleeping pokemon, anything can set up on it, and if something like Venusaur or Breloom ends up against something slower, they're pretty much certain to set up if you're not running Gliscor or some flame orb guts user.

If anything can come in and set up on it...switch out to a more appropriate counter for the set up sweeper or whatever. It's usually best here to attempt a double switch if your poke completely walls his/her own poke and is thus likely to switch, e.g. a matchup between a celebi and a breloom or whatever.

Additionally, a venusaur hits 528 speed with a nature beneficial to speed or 518 speed with a neutral nature. Nothing without a boost is gonna outspeed it, so it's usually best to sleep fodder something and then switch in an appropriate counter.

Also, usage stats tomorrow

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2/13

Yeah, doing this again sadly.

UU suspected chandelure...for whatever reason. Yeah, it ain't broke till shadow tag comes out.

While we were out...RU suspected nidoqueen (seems like i posted about that) and ended up not banning it.

[Dragonicwari]

Every time I look at this thread you have to do that -_-

Unless Chandelure has had a major counter move up to Bl/ Ou recently (haven't played uu in months sadly) I really don't see why they are doing this NOW. As for Nidoqueen, I heard a solid amount of people were using Nidoqueen over king in uu for her bulk, so the suspect rest might not even be needed. Though this does concern me that smogon might get ban happy again

[dewhinifier]

breaking news, deoxys d is now banned from OU.

I'm happy, i don't have to worry abbout a fast and bulky poke that sets up hazards

[That Crazy Russian™]

Im kinda happy about that ban as well. The ability to almost be guaranteed a layer of spikes and stealth rock was pretty OP imo, and im glad aldaron and co. caught that. I forsee HO teams plummeting in usage now they dont have their coveted hazards. Or at the least resorting to alternative pokemon like ferrothorn.

[dewhinifier]

Usage stats time!

Nothing particularly special, and i'm not gonna post NU <--> PU changes again cuz...pointless.

Anyways, nidoqueen is projected to rise to UU from RU while munchlax and scolipede are projected to fall to NU.

I'll also go out on a limb here and predict tornadus going OU, too.

In other news, tonight's the last chance to send in voter reqs for UU for the chandy vote, so we'll know its status next week sometime. Honestly, due to one part of the debate being HUGE compared to the other, I'd say expect chandy to go BL next week. That's all for now, will post when we get the news about chandy.

[Dragonicwari]

My biggest question about chandelure is why wait so long?

As for the queen I called it

I'm sad about Deo D, I personally used it as a wall in my old stall team and it + chansey was my funnest answer for Gengar with the prediction game

[dewhinifier]

Chandelure remains unbanned in UU. The opposition for its banning argued against its weakness to stealth rock and its speed. (I was on that side, it wasn't that hard to counter when I played UU.) Those for it argued because...it hit harder than a truck and overcentralized the meta. Nice try.

[Pookey-man]

Chandelure is amazing with stats leaning toward speed, and Will-O-Wisp. It would be completely destroyed by Bibarel though. Too bad Bibarel is useless and no one uses it other than for laughs.

[Zachmac]

Chandelure is amazing with stats leaning toward speed, and Will-O-Wisp. It would be completely destroyed by Bibarel though. Too bad Bibarel is useless and no one uses it other than for laughs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most Chandy use Hidden Power?

And 80 base speed isn't overly impressive. It's more then enough for a defensive pokemon, but Chandalure isn't exactly what I'd call a wall...

[dewhinifier]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most Chandy use Hidden Power?

And 80 base speed isn't overly impressive. It's more then enough for a defensive pokemon, but Chandalure isn't exactly what I'd call a wall...

Choice sets will usually run hp fighting and energy ball sadly. Plus, bibarel could do nothing to chandy other than aqua jet...if it even gets that.

Rofl, chandelure gets 2hkoed by a bibarel that has 0 attack evs. Specs chandy has a 6.25% chance to OHKO a 252 hp/252 sp def bibarel with energy ball; it needs rocks support to get a 81.25% chance to KO.

[Dragonicwari]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most Chandy use Hidden Power?

And 80 base speed isn't overly impressive. It's more then enough for a defensive pokemon, but Chandalure isn't exactly what I'd call a wall...

Chandelure runs hp fighting less than 20% of the time, still a pretty substantial amount. He runs energy ball a lot more which hits bibarell harder thanks to it's second typing water as dewhinfier has pointed out with a nice calc to boot

[OceanicLanturn]

Is hail banned in UU?

Abo is UU now, right?

[dewhinifier]

Is hail banned in UU?

Abo is UU now, right?

nah hail got unbanned like...within the last like 9 months, idr when for certain. and yeah aboma is uu.

also...tier changes! just a few minor ones, however. nidoqueen rises from ru to uu and primape, scolipede, and munchlax fall from RU to nu. primape is on that surprises me, it's a really underrated poke. scolipede for nu brings back the age of the hazards.

[ParaChomp]

Oh...ugh...

new tier format

statistics

[Dragonicwari]

I actually like this and I feel like it will make it easier for team building as well since we will know what the good players are using (though the 1337 does this to I guess). Thanks for posting this chomp

[dewhinifier]

Smogon unbanned jynx from NU to test to see if it's broken in this meta. We'll see how this goes...

Also, for those who haven't noticed, deo d and torny t are now banned on PO, too.

Edit 5/14: Smogcast (smogon podcast) just aired. One of the things that was talked about was sleep being a possible suspect in the near future.