Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[RifleAvenger]

Latios only needs a simple majority to go, so I think if anything that is what will make him go, though I've seen more and more people complain about Thundurus' lack of counters aside from Quagsire, and Garchomp turning the tides of matches based on SV hax, so they both have a good chance of getting banned. If weather gets banned, there might also be a retest of Manaphy and Blaziken since their tiering was affected by weather a great deal, though I'm sure Manaphy getting +3 from Tail Glow, and Blaziken will still be strong enough to beat most things in OU, so we'll see about them provided weather goes. There also seems to be a ton of people hating on ShellPassing as well since it takes no skill to use, and it wins matches against even the most well structured teams. Past that, most other nominations seem to be rediculous, like Lugia in OU and Tropius for Ubers...

Thundurus was voted safe by a large majority last time, despite complaints about it abounding. I will agree that, once it gets going, it's hard to stop, but it also seems to me that a lot of faster revenge killers smash its face in. Latios is closest to going, but has the hate on it really not subsided yet? It needs to carry HP fire to deal effectively with Ferrothorn, and that means giving up a speed EV. I'm not even seeing too much of a problem with Garchomp in a metagame where sand being up is not guaranteed. Then again, I'm not playing at as high of a level as you are, d0nut, and I'm probably not seeing the power plays you are.

I'd be very disappointed in a weather-less meta-game.

[kaiser soze]

If I was king of smogon I would ban kingdra to ubers and allow swift swim + drizzle, namely bc its unfair to UUs like ludicolo and kaputops (and luvdisc as mentioned lol). namely bc we already have sand rush excadrill and SV garchomp gunning amuck.

thundurus would also go, as I detest pretty much everything about it (design, the fact I got black, speed, prankster Twave). also consider golurk is the only unova ice beamer not weak to electric.

[Karpi]

If I was king of smogon I would ban kingdra to ubers and allow swift swim + drizzle, namely bc its unfair to UUs like ludicolo and kaputops (and luvdisc as mentioned lol). namely bc we already have sand rush excadrill and SV garchomp gunning amuck.

thundurus would also go, as I detest pretty much everything about it (design, the fact I got black, speed, prankster Twave). also consider golurk is the only unova ice beamer not weak to electric.

If after the Kingdra ban, Ludicolo and Kabutops become so extremely threatening that they are likely to be banned, I'm pretty sure people would rather just sacrifice Luvdisc's usability lol

[RifleAvenger]

If after the Kingdra ban, Ludicolo and Kabutops become so extremely threatening that they are likely to be banned, I'm pretty sure people would rather just sacrifice Luvdisc's usability lol

So true. Kabutops and Luddicolo were nearly as bad as kingdra, since swift swim negates their poor speed and enables them to rip through teams under perma-rain. Nasty stuff. I'd rather not have to ban three pokemon to find out that stuff like Armaldo is still beastly under rain. Aldaron's proposal stands for now.

[iShock]

They aren't...go look up a tier list.

But... > http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/989552-/57711572

[d0nut]

But... > http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/989552-/57711572

No one follows gamefaqs tiers. Serebii goes by Smogon's tiers since they actually have data to back up their tier placement and tests to determine what is broken.

[iShock]

Link pleaz? Anyone? *Walks away rejected and crying*

[d0nut]

Link pleaz? Anyone? *Walks away rejected and crying*

Currently, this is their ban list: http://www.smogon.com/forums/announc...hp?f=144&a=187

The top 53 of the pokemon listed under Rated BW OU are considered OU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3446900

The top 54 of this list in UU are considered UU for right now: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448782

Also, Kyurem has been banned from UU to BL since then, Drought is also illegal in UU now so Vulpix and many Sun pokemon will likely fall, and everything else is RU until they get more statistics next month to create an NU tier.

[Psycho Cut]

I don't get why evasion is banned...

[d0nut]

I don't get why evasion is banned...

It creates unneccessary luck in the game. Most people prefer a game which requires skill to win as opposed to luck (granted it doesn't always turn out that way,) therefore evasion, the ability Moody, and OHKO moves (due to their low accuracy) are banned. Other things like crits, misses, and secondary effects people just have to deal with since there is no way to alter them without changing the game mechanics. Also Minimize is +2 now, which is all the more reason to keep it banned.

[Mutsumi]

It creates unneccessary luck in the game. Most people prefer a game which requires skill to win as opposed to luck (granted it doesn't always turn out that way,) therefore evasion, the ability Moody, and OHKO moves (due to their low accuracy) are banned. Other things like crits, misses, and secondary effects people just have to deal with since there is no way to alter them without changing the game mechanics. Also Minimize is +2 now, which is all the more reason to keep it banned.

Perhaps they should have moves in the game that never miss, moves that reset all stat changes or moves that reset the target's evasion boosts to zero.

Oh wait...

[Psycho Cut]

Perhaps they should have moves in the game that never miss, moves that reset all stat changes or moves that reset the target's evasion boosts to zero.

Oh wait...

Exactly my point. Moves like aerial ace and haze just ruin evasioners. If you think your opponent will use double team for a few turns (and if he uses it once he'll probably use it a few times) then just boost your stats for a few turns and completely ruin his plans with aerial ace, haze, aura sphere, whatever. I think that trying to build a team to counter evasioners as well as everything else merely adds more skill into team building and the game in general.

[Regarde]

lol "more skill when team building". more like more **** to deal with in a metagame with too much **** to begin with. try again

[streetlightdsb]

Perhaps they should have moves in the game that never miss, moves that reset all stat changes or moves that reset the target's evasion boosts to zero.

Oh wait...

Exactly my point. Moves like aerial ace and haze just ruin evasioners. If you think your opponent will use double team for a few turns (and if he uses it once he'll probably use it a few times) then just boost your stats for a few turns and completely ruin his plans with aerial ace, haze, aura sphere, whatever. I think that trying to build a team to counter evasioners as well as everything else merely adds more skill into team building and the game in general.

Those sorts of moves really aren't practical to have on a team, and have little use outside of Evasion users. Evasion has been tested so many times and it's always, always found to be broken.

[Blue Harvest]

Perhaps they should have moves in the game that never miss, moves that reset all stat changes or moves that reset the target's evasion boosts to zero.

Oh wait...

Haze has bad distribution and isn't a very good move.

Clear Smog will not effect Pokemon behind a Substitute, nor will if effect Steel types. It can also miss. Also the only marginally usable Pokemon to learn it is Weezing. Gengar and Kingdra also do though its a waste on them.

Roar / Whirlwind can miss.

Sweet Scent is a joke.

Aerial Ace / Shock Wave / Swift / Magical Leaf etc. are garbage moves. So what if you can hit that Double Teaming Garchomp, you still aren't doing **** to it.

Aura Sphere is the only good one and very few Pokemon learn it.


Double Team has been tested SO MUCH its ridiculous. Its broken even if you don't believe us.

[streetlightdsb]

Haze has bad distribution and isn't a very good move.

Clear Smog will not effect Pokemon behind a Substitute, nor will if effect Steel types. It can also miss. Also the only marginally usable Pokemon to learn it is Weezing. Gengar and Kingdra also do though its a waste on them.

Roar / Whirlwind can miss.

Sweet Scent is a joke.

Aerial Ace / Shock Wave / Swift / Magical Leaf etc. are garbage moves. So what if you can hit that Double Teaming Garchomp, you still aren't doing **** to it.

Aura Sphere is the only good one and very few Pokemon learn it.


Double Team has been tested SO MUCH its ridiculous. Its broken even if you don't believe us.

Minor nitpick, but doesn't Clear Smog always hit? Other than that, I completely agree. And Moody was even worse than DT.

[Psycho Cut]

Yeah, maybe aerial ace/magical leaf aren't as powerful as other moves, but with STAB most are base 90 power, and that's a standard power of most pokemon's coverage moves, if not more. And the trade off is less power for an always hit, anyway.

[RifleAvenger]

Yeah, maybe aerial ace/magical leaf aren't as powerful as other moves, but with STAB most are base 90 power, and that's a standard power of most pokemon's coverage moves, if not more. And the trade off is less power for an always hit, anyway.

Yet, w/o evasion, there are plenty of other moves with 100% accuracy that SHOULD always hit, and do more damage. Even at 90 BP, you're still probably not going to OHKO or 2HKO, maybe even 3HKO pokemon, because most of the never miss moves (minus Aura Sphere), don't get the best coverage, have low BP, and a lot of major threats have at least acceptable bulk + defenses and won't be one hit by the likes of STAB magical leaf.

Letting in evasion is more trouble than it's worth; why force players to either run low power, never hit moves or play the dice, when neither improve the quality of the metagame?

[kaiser soze]

having to deal with evasion > need for hazing > need for more base 60 moves > less flexibility for your team

[Psycho Cut]

having to deal with evasion > need for hazing > need for more base 60 moves > less flexibility for your team

Exactly, so there's more skill in building a team that can take on all corners.

I do see your point, evasion can be very annoying, but it's part of the skill of the game of being able to deal with that and building teams to counter to it. Besides, either togekiss and lucario, two pokemon often seen in the competitive game that can learn aura sphere and can hit hard with it, could easily be fit into a team to deal with evaison users, and could handle other sfuff too.