Originally Posted by Makaveli
So.. I'll be back home tomorrow, though I might not be fully active again until Tuesday.
Have there been any new developments on PO's 5th gen servers? Has Smogon done anything at all worth noting in the past week? Is Shoddy 5th gen yet?
I do not think Kyurem should be Uber, there's nothing outrageously broken about it's offensive or defensive stats. It's speed is probably what will cripple it the most, along with it's Dragon, Fighting, and Steel weakness. It's STAB is resisted and practically halted by most steel types, it also has no offensive Fire moves besides HP Fire. Scizor wrecks it. It doesn't have any set-up moves besides Claw Sharpen, and it's movepool isn't that great either. It doesn't even get Earthquake.
I'm a rather lovable individual
Oh, and it also seems that DW pokes are capable of having special moves which are either unobtainable, or only available from past gen tutors/TMs, such as Sleep Talk on Lickitung and such, though I don't really see any significant moves released yet. Since these pokes are distributed as events it seems gamefreak could technically put whatever move they wanted on whichever poke. They could make Flare Blitz Flareon or Volt Tackle Electivire if they wanted but I doubt it.
Originally Posted by Makaveli
I would say we should make our own sets, but its kind of pointless to fight Smogon, and the POTW will be up and running for 5th gen soon (which will be community based this time).
Someone told me PO was thinking of making Ditto Uber. Please tell me this is a rumor, or just some dumb topic that wasn't taken seriously. Or that it was mistaken to simply mean Eccentric Ditto should be banned because its Dream World ability wasn't released yet.
Also if Dream World abilities have special moves then I may finally get a Recover Regirock or Tentacruel!
No the person was prolly crying their ****ing brains out when they just got a +6 Blaziken ready to sweep and Ditto comes in and shits on his team.I think I find it highly unlikely that ditto will be Uber.Depending on which pokemon it takes,it's not THAT hard to take down. x3
Actually, now that I think it over, I think that all the "suspects" should be OU. We should probably give all of them a test individually and see how they perform in the OU tier before making a decision. We really don't know how each poke works and for example, wobbuffet has been severely nerfed with encore only lasting 3 turns and facing competition with shanderaa and we don't know how each other will work (whether there is an easier way to stop mewpass or more antileads to take down deo-s etc. So, I think that they all deserve a try in OU.
As a side note, I think it's great that the POTW is going to be community organized now. We can get some great analyses this time for people to refer to. Bet it won't differ much from Smogon's, though.
So it looks like we might have 2 options (or more!)
One, we could all take a vote on all these suspects and just call the ban list good after that until Serebii wifi picks up (and people start complaining about it). I know many of you have decent amounts of experience with 5th gen PO (where suspects can be used), so its not like a vote would be completely biased or without good reason.
Or two, since Smogon is once again sitting on their historically indecisive asses by doing absolutely nothing besides hindering the tiering process Pokemon Online is leading the way. They have already done some minor suspect testing (the results are apparently obviously broken stuff from 4th gen is still broken). PO has four rulesets. http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/show...Gen-Beta-Tiers . We could simply use their own Wifi tier. Despite it not being Wifi, the goal is to imitate wifi as closely as possible, and coincidentally their rules are fairly close to ours. Their rules are as follows:
This would more or less allow all the suspects into Wifi.Soul Dew, event pokemon, non released Dream World abilities are banned. Moreover, the following pokemon are banned:
Arceus, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Lugia, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiramu, Zekuromu.
Released Dream World abilities are still allowed. (Munna, Mushaana, Darumakka, Hihidaruma, Eevee, Umbreon, Jolteon, Vaporeon, Flareon, Espeon, Leafeon, Glaceon, Bellsprout, Weepinbell, Victreebel, Nidoran-M, Nidorino, Nidoking, Sentret, Furret, Sunkern, Sunflora, Hoppip, Skiploom, Jumpluff, Lickitung, Lickylicky, Ponyta, Rapidash, Exeggcute, Exeggutor, Farfetch'd, Nidoran-F, Nidorina, Nidoqueen, Stantler, Oddish, Gloom, Vileplume, Mareep, Flaaffy, Ampharos, Doduo, Dodrio, Tangela, Tangrowth, Surskit, Masquerain, Igglybuff, Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, Bidoof, Bibarel, Kangaskhan, Lotad, Lombre, Ludicolo, Poochyena, Mightyena, Rattata, Rattatac, Shinx, Luxio, Luxray, Taillow, Swellow.)
Edit: PO has almost unanimously voted that Darkrai is Uber. If we absorb a PO tier list its almost certain Darkrai is banned.
The thing I have against no amogon's "no tiers" is that it doesn't prove anything with the usage of OU pokes that may affect the metagame like ninetales and politoed. I reckon we should. I reckon that we should only ban all previously uber pokes with a BST of 670+. We can then test the rest. This gives us an opportunity to see how the formerly uber pokes perform in this metagame.
I have been testing some 4th gen ubers (the 600 TBS ones) and here is my opinion on them:
The Lati Twins:
Really, people accually want them uber again, they are not as powerful as in the 4th gen. here, sazandora ARGUABLY outclasses it due to better movepool and better typing.
Both Of them will be OU
pre-evolution stone pretty much took deoxys-d's walling capabilitys and increased it.
Once Again, it is set up bait, erufuun also screws it over, It will be OU
ononokusu has better attack and can break subs with double chop, has slightly lower speed then salamence but that is not too important.
all it got was a new ability, it will be OU (If there are move tutors in B/W like in Plat/HG/SS then it could sit in Ubers)
The Same reason as Salamence, OU but may go to ubers very quickly like before.
+3 SpAtk with tail glow and has 100 Base speed, Ubers
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I guess I'll take another stab at this since we've all had a bit of experience with 5th gen now.
Darkrai - PO is already considering banning this which I'm glad about. I don't even know why they decided to test it in the first place. Sure it only has 600 BST but its stat distribution is one of the best you can ask for out of all the 600ers. On top of that it has a very accurate sleep move, NP, and nearly unresisted coverage coming off its already massive Special Attack. Also its hard to pull off a move before getting put to sleep and until it does put something to sleep its nearly impossible to switch into it. Breloom and Roopushin serve as great revenge killers thanks to their ability boosted Mach Punches though imo that isn't enough to keep it in check so its still easily an Uber.
Deoxys-N - Really I've only seen a few since Deo-A is still around (though I have seen some surprisingly) and its been fairly underwhelming. It's fast and it can hit pretty hard, but when it doesn't KO something it is pretty much a given that its going down. Even resisted priorities like Mach Punch are going to beat it. Its most practical use seems to be as a SR lead, though it is still outclassed by Attack form. OU unless something Changes.
Deoxys-A - This really isn't much different from its original form. It hits much harder and still dies to anything. Its a bit more difficult to take out since some priority users won't be able to take an Extremespeed especially after they have taken some residual damage. Its a good revenge killer, and can work well as a SR lead, though I actually haven't had too many problems with it. Quite possibly OU for the time being.
Deoxys-S - While he was amazing in gen 4, this gen seems to be the advent of anti-leads. Erufuun and Voltros both have priority Taunts which completely shut it down. Espeon, while it should never be in the lead position, can switch into several leads such as this by switching into its Taunt to shut it down or backfire its Rocks/Spikes. It's still a great lead, though its very manageable this gen, so its safe for OU I think.
Deoxys-D - Only seen a handful of these, though none of them have done much of anything. It is a bit slow and can be Taunted by many things before setting up, plus Espeon can prevent any support from happening. The Evo Stone has revolutionized several defensive pokemon which gives this thing a lot of competition for a team slot. It doesn't help that Psychic isn't the greatest defensive type either. It has potential to be good, but its the least broken Deo form by far. OU.
Lati@s - While they haven't changed much, they seem to fit in with all the hard hitting threats this gen better than they did in 4th gen. They can revenge kill several Dragons due to being a cut ahead in the speed department, and they can also do quite a bit of damage with Specs Draco Meteors. They don't seem too bad for the time being so I'll go with OU for now. As a side note people should really stop using these as Blaziken counters...its getting pathetic. I've lost track of how many I've OHKO'd with a +2 HJK.
Mew - Only seen a couple, and it really hasn't stood out very much. It could probably be a great Baton Passer or an unpredictable sweeper, though I haven't seen anyone use it very effectively yet. I might try to fit Mew into one of my teams to see how it runs, though until I can see myself whether or not its broken I'll call it OU.
Shaymin-S - This thing actually doesn't seem to have gotten much more manageable since 4th gen. Its still a nightmare to switch into due to its powerful Seed Flare, plus Air Slash turns would be counters into shaky checks with ease. There are many faster things this gen, though few of them are faster than Skymin. I can't think of a good reason it shouldn't be Uber since its pretty difficult to deal with. Yea, being "uncounterable" doesn't hold much weight in a tiering arguement these days, but the fact that this thing can be uncounterable by running a single set puts it a bit ahead of OU imo.
Wobbuffet - Wob is strange. Few people seem to use it and this was also the case when it was allowed in 4th gen, though regardless people thought it should be Uber. This time around it seems that Shadow Tag is something people already prepare for well enough with Shandera being the most common poke around, and I personally haven't had too much trouble with it. The Encore nerf makes it much more difficult for it to provide free set up like it used to, and it can still revenge kill most things, but Shandera is a bit better for this in several cases. I think OU for now unless anyone else has something to add.
Kyuremu - Surprisingly it's one of the least used Dragons this gen. That 100 Base Speed mark seems to be vital for most OU Dragons and it just misses is which is unfortunate. It has perfect coverage at his disposal, and 130 mixed offensive stats are great, plus it has decent defenses. Where everything goes wrong is with his typing, its somewhat shallow movepool, and while it has a huge 660 BST, it doesn't have the greatest distribution which ties in with his Speed which just falls short of the important 100 mark. Hi Jump Kick getting a boost and becoming more widespread this gen certainly doesn't help it. It's movepool is pretty predictable and I haven't heard of anyone having any trouble with it so it can stay in OU for now.
Garchomp - Things are just to fast for SDChomp to wreck havoc on the metagame as it once did. It's still an awesome sweeper and its Speed makes it a great revenge killer for other Dragons, and a good revenge killer for nearly anything with a Scarf. It seems to be a good Doryuuzu check, and fits well on Sand teams pretty well alongside it. While it seems to be great, it isn't as threatening as it previously was. Seems to be a good OU.
Salamence - Salamence seems to be one of the most useful Dragons this gen. It has a SR weakness which few common Dragons have this gen surprisingly, though it still makes a good DD sweeper, and its also a pretty good Scarf revenge killer. Both sets enjoy making use of its new Overconfidence ability, which makes it nearly impossibly to take down if it gets a kill or two under its belt, though like most boosting sweepers this gen, it should be wary about becoming too powerful as Ditto can turn things around very quickly, though it has to rely on a Speed tie against Scarf variants. While it is a great pokemon, it isn't quite as gamebreaking as it previously was. Its similar to Chomp in the way that it will probably fit in better in OU than it did in the previous gen.
Manaphy - Manaphy completely destroys my team so I might be a little biased towards hating it. It was a pretty controversial Uber last gen, and personally I think it could have been managed in OU, though now that TG gives a +3 boost I'm a little inclined to say its an Uber. Politoed is one of the most common leads this gen, and as such, Rain teams are very common this gen. Manaphy fits well on them enjoying even more powerful Surfs, and a complete immunity to status and instant full recovery without any drawbacks. Its hard to take something so bulky down before it can set up, plus it has pretty good Speed, so sweeping isn't much of an issue for Manaphy.
Darkrai - Uber
Deoxys-N - OU
Deoxys-A - OU
Deoxys-S - OU
Deoxys-D - OU
Lati@s - OU
Mew - OU
Shaymin-S - Uber
Wobbuffet - OU
Kyuremu - OU
Garchomp - OU
Salamence - OU
Manaphy - Uber
This is what I think for the time being at least... and Lati@s =/= Blaziken counter.
Originally Posted by Makaveli
For now, I think that I agree with d0nut. I think, however, we will eventually need to refine that search and will end up banning deo (bar deo-d), chomp and kyuremu.
Well, here are my opinions...
Darkrai - Darkrai's speed, movepool, and Special Attack are nothing to laugh at, because of how easily he can set up and sweep. Darkrai really has no reliable counter. It comes in on something that can't really hit it, and as the opponent switches to the counter, it puts it to sleep, then uses Nasty Plot, which really ends up being GG most of the time. It's movepool is pretty huge and can be utilized to take out specific threats with ease. Uber without a doubt.
Deoxys-N - What really screws Deoxys-N over is it's frail defenses, and his crappy STAB. However, it could make out to be a frightening revenge killer because of his speed and offensive, and can sweep with ease after Pokemon with Priority have been removed. However, Bulky SD Scizor and CB Scizor could counter it, Scizor setting up with SD or U-Turning as Deoxys switches out, but one must be cautious of HP Fire. I'm a little unsure about where I would place it, but I'm going to say OU for now.
Deoxys-A - In my personal opinion, Deoxys-A is wayyyy to powerful in order to be in the OU tier. It has access to an overwhelming movepool, including a 180 Base Attack Extremespeed, 150 Base Speed, and 180 base Special Attack. However, there is no definite counter for it because of it's frightening offensive stats so I'm going to have to say Uber.
Deoxys-S - Priority Taunts in this gen cripple it pretty badly, but it has the ability to eliminate the anti-leads with anti-lead moves of it's own. It can OHKO Erufuun with Ice Beam, and it's bulkyness and speed allow it to switch out to an appropriate counter and come back later in the game to set up Entry Hazards and/or screens. I'm saying Uber but I wouldn't mind the matter being further looked into.
Deoxys-D - From personal experience of facing these things, they're really no big deal. It has crappy wall typing, and it's HP is horrid. I even doubt it'd get much usage in OU, since Stall has been crippled even more in this generation and powerful attackers can quickly take out Deoxys-D without much of a problem. It really isn't meant for Ubers, so I'll say OU, but I actually wouldn't be surprised for it to be kicked into BL.
Lati@s - These two really don't make much of a threat anymore, especially defensively. Blaziken can destroy Lati@s once it gets Swords Dance up, so why people think the dragons can effectively counter Blaziken, I don't know. However, Specs Latios is still very frightening, and has great offensive stats, but I wouldn't say it's enough for it to call it Uber. However, I still think that Soul Dew should be banned. OU for both of them.
Mew - After using it myself, I see it as an extremely broken Pokemon. It can set up and Baton Pass with ease, or set up and sweep by itself. It has one of the largest movepools in the game and has great base stats. It's mostly seen as a defensive baton passer, but it can be very unpredictable and rip through teams. Uber, definitely.
Shaymin-S - Definitely Uber. It has access to Serene Grace, Earth Power, and STAB Seed Flare and Air Slash. It's the fastest SubSeeder in the game, and has a unique Speed Stat and a great Special Attack stat. It's more annoying than Jirachi and Togekiss as well, and would definitely cause ragequits with ease in the OU metagame. Uber Uber Uber.
Wobbuffet - Really no comment, the Encore nerf cripples it's ability for opening up gateways for Pokemon to set up greatly. However, with some Wish Support, it could rip apart through most teams with little to no prediction. I say it should be tested more thoroughly, but for now I'm calling it Uber.
Kyuremu -I really don't see how people see this Pokemon as Uber in any way. It's typing sucks, it's movepool sucks, it's STAB is nothing special and it's speed sucks. It has nice offensive stats, but it is by no means broken, neither are it's defensive stats. OU indefinitely.
Garchomp - To be honest, I think Garchomp is somewhat outclassed by Ononokusu. Ononokusu has access to Dragon Dance and has a nicer Attack Stat. However, Garchomp has access to Sand Veil, Swords Dance, resistance to Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, and has a STAB Earthquake. It needs to be tested more IMO, and I still think it's just fine in the Uber tier.
Salamence - The Pre-Evo stone grants Porygon2 to get it's revenge on MixMence. Ditto also provides a means to revenge kill Salamence more effectively, and can even score some KO's on the opponent's team. I'm thinking OU.
Manaphy - I have been arguing for a long time before 5th gen that Manaphy is only Uber when it's along side Drizzle (Kyogre). But now, Tail Glow gives Manaphy +3 to it's SpA, and Politoed was given the gift of Drizzle. So unfortunately, I'm going to have to say Uber.
Dialga - It made me think when Dialga was mentioned in the Pokemon Online 5th gen banlist. I took a closer look and think it could be a nice addition to OU, and really isn't broken. With all the fast & hard-hitting new 5th Generation Pokemon, such as Kojondo and Rupuushin, I'm thinking Dialga could be kept in check. It's Base Stats look scary at a glance, but it is kind of slow and can be OHKO'd by a number of Pokemon. I think it deserves to be given a chance, and be tested. I'd say OU, but I'm not completely sure yet.
Ho-Oh - To be completely honest, I don't know why Ho-Oh was even uber in 4th Gen. Stealth Rock cripples it to the extreme, and it's crappy typing and speed make it easily checked by numerous offensive threats in the non-uber metagame. I strongly believe it should be OU.
In other words:
Darkrai - Uber
Deoxys-N - OU
Deoxys-A - Uber
Deoxys-S - Uber
Deoxys-D - OU/BL
Lati@s - OU
Mew - Uber
Shaymin-S - Uber
Wobbuffet - Uber
Kyuremu - OU
Garchomp - Uber
Salamence - OU
Manaphy - Uber
Dialga - OU
Ho-Oh - OU
I'm a rather lovable individual
The last two are just wrong. Not even steels would like to take base 150 SAtk STAB DMs. The fact that dialga also has access to flamethrower and has an awesome typing would let it run rampant. It would be very hard to take down and would rely on a couple pokes to dake it down and it can punch a much greater hole. Regeneration ho-oh is just too powerful and, since there is a decrease of SR, if ho-oh is on and there is no SR, it would be unstoppable with spin support.
SR cripples Ho-oh a bit, and it did in 4th gen as well but that doesn't automatically make something OU. As jellsprout said, Ho-oh didn't have any reliable checks in 4th gen, and that includes Ubers too since it gained Brave Bird to OHKO Kyogre and Palkia which used to screw it over. Even Smogon considered testing it in 4th gen but that all stopped after the release of HGSS. All the things in OU which could check it all risk being burned upon switching in, which makes TTar, which is probably its most reliable check in OU, nearly worthless half of the time. TTar also needs a Scarf to outspeed Ho-oh otherwise it will just die to EQ. Regeneration slightly helps Ho-oh get over its SR weakness, and on top of that it has access to Roost, plus 106/90/154 defenses are far from fragile. Also, with Espeon and Erufuun among other things out there, its easier than ever to prevent rocks from going up at the start of the match which only makes Ho-oh that much harder to take down. Its not quite as broken as a lot of Ubers, but it is still broken by far.
Originally Posted by Makaveli
Check Smogon's Policy review. They've been fighting for well over a month on this and don't seem to be getting much closer to a final decision. And if they do? Who cares? Smogon doesn't dictate anything as long as Pokemon Online has its own tiers and server.
From what I read on the Policy Review, Smogon is going to use a 5th gen initial ban list. Mostly based off PO's.. They should start voting soon, though I don't think anyone will care untill Shoddy 2 gets 5th gen running.
For once, I think that serebii has some sense over smogon. It is impossible to imagine that something of the likes of kyogre, arceus, reshiram etc would be anywhere near OU and there is no point of testing it for OU. However I use them cuz I will test their performance in ubers.
The Pokemon that appear on all four of Smogon's other lists as optional bans are as follows...
The only Gen 4 Pokes that appear on none of their initial ban lists are as follows...Arceus
Also, there are three Pokes that (iirc) only made it onto one of the lists that were posted...Deoxys-D
As far as the first two lists that I posted here, I think we should just go ahead, and adjust accordingly to those two now.Deoxys-N
The three from my third list here are probably not going to be banned on Smogon's initial ban list either. I'm not sure if I agree with Lugia personally, but that's a different matter.
Even though they are already there, we should keep the bans on my first list, and scrap whatever bans we have on the second list. I honestly forget what we banned, and can't be bothered to go back and look right now.
I think it's pretty easy to see where the dividing line here is between what we will for sure see banned and not banned at the tiering start (on Smogon) for Gen. 5. Might as well get used to it, even if we don't like it (although aside from Lugia being potential OU, I like the choices, so far from Smogon).