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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #26
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    Within the iffy list, Deoxys Defense is the only one that should be aloud. Speed has to much potential as a Dual Screen, attack dominates OU, Normal just has good coverage.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweep Freak View Post
    Within the iffy list, Deoxys Defense is the only one that should be aloud. Speed has to much potential as a Dual Screen, attack dominates OU, Normal just has good coverage.
    Magic Coat now reflects screens and entry hazards back in addition to status. Magic Mirror ability is likely to do the same but is not confirmed yet. This means that being the fastest screener won't always work since Magic Coat has priority.

  3. #28
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    So this verifies that Mence, Chomp and Wobb are unbanned in Serebii? Let the Serebii Trapping begin.

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkmner View Post
    So this verifies that Mence, Chomp and Wobb are unbanned in Serebii? Let the Serebii Trapping begin.
    Yes, along with Skymin and Manaphy. I'm gonna see if I can get WiFi set up sometime later since their aren't going to be any properly working simulators for quite some time and I've already got three teams to test...
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  5. #30
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    This thread is for the discussion of what we want to ban while Smogon gets their Ubers tiers in order. It is not for any other tiering discussion. Stay on topic.

  6. #31
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    I'll make it quick.

    Mew ban
    All Deoxys ban
    Wobbuffet no ban

    And ofc Garchomp and Salamence no ban.
    What pokemon communities like smogon think they are to put them into ubers and ban them.

    Nintendo/Gamefreak only can decide who gets banned. Official.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNoob View Post
    I'll make it quick.

    Mew ban
    All Deoxys ban
    Wobbuffet no ban

    And ofc Garchomp and Salamence no ban.
    What pokemon communities like smogon think they are to put them into ubers and ban them.

    Nintendo/Gamefreak only can decide who gets banned. Official.
    Nintendo and Gamefreak don't create competitive communities for people who want to have serious battles. Smogon creates these tiers and bans certain Pokemon because the people that are serious about competitive notice that they are too powerful, or the tiers are to focused because of them. Smogon is like a Congress, not a dictator.

  8. #33
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    Meloetta deserves to be OU. You need to use Ancient Song for it to change form. In it's voice forme, it has very weak defence and is easy to take care of with a strong dark type move. Ancient Song is a weak and the opponent can easily see this coming and switch into a ghost type. Aside from that, it's step forme is comparable to sky forme Shaymin (who is already banned). Also, I'm curious if you can use alternate formes online now.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Meloetta deserves to be OU. You need to use Ancient Song for it to change form. In it's voice forme, it has very weak defence and is easy to take care of with a strong dark type move. Ancient Song is a weak and the opponent can easily see this coming and switch into a ghost type. Aside from that, it's step forme is comparable to sky forme Shaymin (who is already banned). Also, I'm curious if you can use alternate formes online now.
    I agree. But its impossible to get Meloetta right now since its an event Poke that wasn't released yet.

    Edit: I'm putting Deoxys A in Ubers, since the only way it will be possibly unbanned is if Deoxys N turns out to be extremely underwhelming. Deoxys D is also being unbanned, due to its just good enough defensive stats and how almost everyone seems to vote him OU.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    I agree. But its impossible to get Meloetta right now since its an event Poke that wasn't released yet.

    Edit: I'm putting Deoxys A in Ubers, since the only way it will be possibly unbanned is if Deoxys N turns out to be extremely underwhelming. Deoxys D is also being unbanned, due to its just good enough defensive stats and how almost everyone seems to vote him OU.
    There are always hackers but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Deoxys N in OU seems good, not as flimsy but still really flimsy. Deoxys D I can see being abused by Taunt and Recover doesn't get it far because of its low HP. Anyways, everything else seems good. The other events should still be questioned whether or not to make them ubers in the future.
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  11. #36
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    Seriously, have you seen the Lugia vs. P2 w/ Evo Stone calcs yet?

    I believe Mew, Deoxys D and S, Lugia, Manaphy, the Lati Twins (soul dew banned though), Shaymin-S and obviously Chomp and Mence should be subtracted from last gen's ban list for the time being.
    <---Mah SS team, which is clearly superior to all of yours. Credit goes to Gladeshadow of the Dark Valley Request Shop.

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GolemGuy View Post
    Seriously, have you seen the Lugia vs. P2 w/ Evo Stone calcs yet?
    Yes, and its a terrible argument. Unlike Porygon 2, Lugia has more than 6 usable moves and some real speed to back it. Not to mention a Recovering Lugia with "Shield Dust" or whatever its new ability is will be all but impossible to kill without a Choice Band Tyranitar. It can also use Pressure and Reflect to annihilate any problems he would have had with physical moves. It can run Calm Mind and Reflect to simply NOT DIE to any hits. Porygon 2 can tank, but hes not immortal.

    I believe Mew, Deoxys D and S, Lugia, Manaphy, the Lati Twins (soul dew banned though), Shaymin-S and obviously Chomp and Mence should be subtracted from last gen's ban list for the time being.
    I agree, except for Mew and possibly Deoxys S. Maybe we should have a vote?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    I agree, except for Mew and possibly Deoxys S. Maybe we should have a vote?
    the guy included Lugia as well which you trashed in your previous post so

    Deoxys-S idk about. if it is unbanned the Mischievious Heart Taunters like Borutorosu and Erufuun would probably be used as leads; unlike 4th gen these two stop it from setting up completely. Deoxys of course gets Ice Beam which is trouble but it does have to forego a moveslot. i don't think i played when Deo-S was unbanned but i think it used Superpower to take out Tar, right? if my memory is correct and this is the case it might have to choose between IB and Superpower which restricts it greatly. could be borderline but i imagine the amount of suspicion i have is not exclusive and so i'd say unban it for the moment.

    Mew i'd say no. Tail Glow is now +3 so Baton Passing becomes even deadlier not to mention Shell Crack and oh i don't know every other move ever. all around base 100 defences are certainly nothing to scoff at and since Mence was considered too unpredictable last gen i'd imagine this thing would be even worse.

    the other one i'm not sure on is Manaphy due to the infinite rain and aforementioned Tail Glow boost making everyone run Tar (which is probably OHKO'd by STAB surf now that i think about it) or Abomasnow and so this thing would probably cause a huge amount of centralization in the metagame which i feel would cause this to be banned in the long run. then again, this factors in Dream World which you may be opposed to due to this probably being used on wi-fi (though on that note you did mention the dream world Multi Scale Lugia in your tirade in the above post).

    <-----

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    I agree, except for Mew and possibly Deoxys S. Maybe we should have a vote?
    I don't think a vote would be a bad idea unless uncompetitive plays come in like they have been known to do. Mew, Deoxys-S, and maybe Wobbuffet could all be voted on if you want to open a new thread or something. I don't think anyone should be opposed to allowing D-D in OU at least at the moment as there is no good reason to support banning it at this point. Mew has a huge movepool and good all round stats, Deoxys-S has the best Speed in the game and a great support and offensive movepool, and Wobbuffet is Wobbuffet.
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  15. #40
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    I wasn't involved in the Manaphy tests so I can't really say anything about how it plays. I guess I'll put it back on suspect.

    I'll double check with the other mods but I'm sure we can get a vote up. We can either vote now, or dump the suspects into OU and ban things people complain about (Just like Smogon!).

  16. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    I wasn't involved in the Manaphy tests so I can't really say anything about how it plays. I guess I'll put it back on suspect.

    I'll double check with the other mods but I'm sure we can get a vote up. We can either vote now, or dump the suspects into OU and ban things people complain about (Just like Smogon!).
    I was very active on the suspect tests so I can vouch that it will be quite powerful. If TG were still +2 I would think it would be an easy OU this gen but +3 TG is pretty game changing, as is Politoed getting Drizzle for defensive sets. Skymin might also be broken but since very few people have had the opportunity to use it I say we at least give it a shot in the beginning to see if we can get any different opinions. Mew, Deo-S + N, Manaphy, and Wob should be the only suspects for now.
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  17. #42
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    Politoed and Ninetales are irrelevant for the time being, as they don't exist yet. For that same reason, so are Speed Boost Blaziken, Shadow Tag Shanderra, I-forgot-the-name-but-it-reverses-the-benifits-and-downsides-of-stat-changing-moves Smuglord, and all of those guys,
    <---Mah SS team, which is clearly superior to all of yours. Credit goes to Gladeshadow of the Dark Valley Request Shop.

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  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by GolemGuy View Post
    Politoed and Ninetales are irrelevant for the time being, as they don't exist yet. For that same reason, so are Speed Boost Blaziken, Shadow Tag Shanderra, I-forgot-the-name-but-it-reverses-the-benifits-and-downsides-of-stat-changing-moves Smuglord, and all of those guys,
    No point in bringing any of them up for the time being. Not just cause they haven't been released, but because they haven't been tested much and really none of them are as broken as they seem. Remember...people thought Rampardos, Rhyperior, and Cresselia should all be Uber at the release of DP so we shouldn't go around swinging the ban hammer blindly. Shanderaa is actually more manageable than people make it out to be. Smuglord/Jaroda has an awful movepool which leaves it walled by several things. We should wait until we can test things more throughly on a simulator before we ban anything that isn't completely obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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  19. #44
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    Maybe we should just wait for Smogon because everyone plays by their rules.
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  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParaChomp View Post
    Maybe we should just wait for Smogon because everyone plays by their rules.
    The whole point of us doing this is not everyone wants to wait on Smogon to create a balanced metagame. They are going to be starting with everything unbanned no matter how obviously broken it is (see Kyogre, Mewtwo, Arceus, etc.) Most people will play by Smogon's rules, but this is an alternative for those who are too impatient for them to finish testing things. This isn't a permanent tier list as stated in the OP, its only until they do ban what they need to. Considering they haven't even started testing yet due to lack of a 5th gen simulator, it could be a while (6 months to a year I would think,) before Smogon presents us with a stable tier system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaveli
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  21. #46
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    Yeah, sure. We can play by the rules that aren't developed for at least 6 months. M'kay.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweep Freak View Post
    Yeah, sure. We can play by the rules that aren't developed for at least 6 months. M'kay.
    To be honest, it looks like Smogon are going to have an initial banlist anyway, because they realize casual Pokemon players aren't ready, and patient enough, to do proper tiering yet.

    However, I do think this is a good idea, to, in the event of Smogon deciding to have no initial banlist, have your own substitute in the meantime for those who are living in the past, and still want to (try to) play DPP OU. Obviously, it'd just be embarrassing when this list would turn out very different from Smogon's list, which would actually have mountains of evidence and discussion behind each ban.

    But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm getting the gist that Smogon are going to have an initial banlist, so you might not need to worry after all. In the Policy Review, there's quite a lively discussion about what will be on the banlist, and a lot of the admins, mods and badge holders there are talking like it's already certain to happen.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHUCKLE MAN View Post
    To be honest, it looks like Smogon are going to have an initial banlist anyway, because they realize casual Pokemon players aren't ready, and patient enough, to do proper tiering yet.

    However, I do think this is a good idea, to, in the event of Smogon deciding to have no initial banlist, have your own substitute in the meantime for those who are living in the past, and still want to (try to) play DPP OU. Obviously, it'd just be embarrassing when this list would turn out very different from Smogon's list, which would actually have mountains of evidence and discussion behind each ban.

    But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm getting the gist that Smogon are going to have an initial banlist, so you might not need to worry after all. In the Policy Review, there's quite a lively discussion about what will be on the banlist, and a lot of the admins, mods and badge holders there are talking like it's already certain to happen.
    If they do have an initial banlist I'll probably call this list obsolete (maybe we can take a vote, if people still care I'll keep it active I guess).

    Still even on the PR its sort of going both ways. The "public" poll is still in favor of no ban list and even in PR some people are making an argument proposing that if the public supports a "no ban" it should be. I sort of agree, though it might be because the poll was so stupidly worded.

    I have to go now, but I'll check on Smogon's PR more often and try to keep this thing more up to date.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHUCKLE MAN View Post
    But as I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm getting the gist that Smogon are going to have an initial banlist, so you might not need to worry after all. In the Policy Review, there's quite a lively discussion about what will be on the banlist, and a lot of the admins, mods and badge holders there are talking like it's already certain to happen.
    No, they're still pretty much 50/50 on the subject. Only now the "Initial Banlist" side is trying to put together such a banlist. This is because they suspect most commoners are voting "No Bans" on the public poll because they have no idea what an initial banlist will look like.
    Even on the "Initial Banlist" side there is a pretty large rift between the users. There are those who want a D/P/P Ubers+"obvious" 5th gen Ubers banlist and those who only want a minimal banlist.

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  25. #50
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    If it matters, Pokemon Online is much better than Shoddy 1 and 2. PO already has a basic ban list so even if Smogon decides to start with no bans a significant portion of 5th gen simulator battles will still have one.

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