Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

[PoignantLyrics]

Some other servers (specifically, the popular brazil one) have a "Clear Skies" tier like this and almost nobody plays it. Of course, this is one of those things that Smogon just has to learn on its own.

Other servers =/= Smogon. Once Smogon makes a decision, almost all it's members mass-test it in order to determine the effects on the metagame. If they implemented a weather-less tier for testing purposes, the members would use it in order to determine whether they should ban weather from the standard metagame.

[iShock]

Why is Infernape BL and Empoleon OU? I DEMAND TO KNOW!

[ilucado]

Is Darkrai still uber!? if yes why?

[d0nut]

Why is Infernape BL and Empoleon OU? I DEMAND TO KNOW!

They aren't...go look up a tier list.

Is Darkrai still uber!? if yes why?

Yes. It still has Dark Void to eliminate its already small pool of counters, and can sweep teams with little effort by either setting up a Sub or Nasty Plot.

[toawest1]

wait so is deoxys-s Banned?bc i don't see it on the list above.is in the uber Tier or is it the OU or what?

[d0nut]

wait so is deoxys-s Banned?bc i don't see it on the list above.is in the uber Tier or is it the OU or what?

The only forms banned are Normal and Attack. Speed and Defense forms are allowed in OU (and I believe the Defense form is even allowed in UU.)

[the_green_thunder]

I just gotta say, I find the tier system completely ridiculous and inaccurate. I recently heard about the RU (Rarely Used) Tier. I know it's not an official tier yet but it makes sense to add it in, considering how "broken" a lot of things are in UU. But to put Pokémon in tiers based on usage is not the way to go if you ask me. Why? Consider this: Cresselia is in RU. Why is that? Because it is rarely used. That doesn't stop its stats from being equal to that of something in UU or even OU. Then when tons of people use it in RU, it'll just go back up to UU or get banned altogether. It's redundant and pointless. I know I'm ranting here, and probably not doing a very good job of it, but I think that the tier system should be different. Instead of basing it on usage, it should be based on a Pokémon's overall stats and potential when compared to all other Pokémon.

EDIT: I understand that Smogon is the only one to actually take the initiative to make tiers in the first place. I commend them for that. I'm just saying that there's a better way of doing so.

[jesusfreak94]

^If it's too powerful for RU, then it will banned to UU or higher (not likely). Basing tiers on usage is a simple, quick, and easy way to organize the competitive metagame without having to analyze and test each individual Pokemon (which would take far too long). If a Pokemon is deemed broken in a tier by those who play that tier, then it is tested and voted on to remove from the tier. Thus, the only Pokemon who must be tested are those who are deemed too powerful in their respective metagame, instead of every single Pokemon in the game.

There are other ways of balancing a metagame, such as the Point Value System. However, basing tiers on how "good" a Pokemon is becomes either far too complicated or subjective. Usage is very straightforward, objective, and it allows the competitive community to indirectly but actively decide the balance of the metagame.

[kaiser soze]

I just gotta say, I find the tier system completely ridiculous and inaccurate. I recently heard about the RU (Rarely Used) Tier. I know it's not an official tier yet but it makes sense to add it in, considering how "broken" a lot of things are in UU. But to put Pokémon in tiers based on usage is not the way to go if you ask me. Why? Consider this: Cresselia is in RU. Why is that? Because it is rarely used. That doesn't stop its stats from being equal to that of something in UU or even OU. Then when tons of people use it in RU, it'll just go back up to UU or get banned altogether. It's redundant and pointless. I know I'm ranting here, and probably not doing a very good job of it, but I think that the tier system should be different. Instead of basing it on usage, it should be based on a Pokémon's overall stats and potential when compared to all other Pokémon.

usage is still the most efficient yardstick for measuring a pokemons effectiveness, at least better than base stat total. consider breloom, whos BS are pretty low but it has spore (100% sleep) and poison heal. speed boost blaziken is uber, where it can do major damage. jellicent so far is OU because its bulky, fighting immunity, two good abilities, but only has 480 total. and with the eviolite, you can inflate its stats. there are millions more examples. some things with high base stats dont get usage due to things like bad movepools (serperior), bad typing (articuno) or hindering abilities (regigigas)

although RU is an interesting situation. OU is so big now that a lot of them dropped to UU. Im no expert on this but it theoretically possible to combine the OU and UU banlists for a truer under/rarely used experience in lower tiers?

[the_green_thunder]

I agree with you guys, except for a couple of things.

Usage is very straightforward, objective, and it allows the competitive community to indirectly but actively decide the balance of the metagame.

I gotta say that usage, while it is the easiest way to judge, is by no way objective. Yes, judging each and every Pokémon would take a VERY long time, but it would still be more accurate.

consider breloom, whos BS are pretty low but it has spore (100% sleep) and poison heal. speed boost blaziken is uber, where it can do major damage. jellicent so far is OU because its bulky, fighting immunity, two good abilities, but only has 480 total. and with the eviolite, you can inflate its stats. there are millions more examples. some things with high base stats dont get usage due to things like bad movepools (serperior), bad typing (articuno) or hindering abilities (regigigas)

That's why I'm saying, judge a Pokémon on its OVERALL potential, taking into account Base Stats, movepool, weakness, resistance, everything. As I said, I know it would take IMPOSSIBLY long but in an ideal world that would be the best way to tier them.

Consider this. What if Arceus was never used by a single person on PO or WiFi battles. Would it then be considered in the NU tier, simply because no one ever uses it? According to the logic of the current tier system, it would be NU, but we all know its stats say otherwise.

[jesusfreak94]

Consider this. What if Arceus was never used by a single person on PO or WiFi battles. Would it then be considered in the NU tier, simply because no one ever uses it? According to the logic of the current tier system, it would be NU, but we all know its stats say otherwise.

It would be tested and most likely considered Uber. When a Pokemon is broken, its usage isn't really all that important in deciding whether or not it's banned. Moody in general had really low usage in OU, but those who played against or with it knew how broken it really was. Even though it wasn't used much at all, it was still a broken strategy that ended up getting banned.

[Blue Harvest]

Consider this. What if Arceus was never used by a single person on PO or WiFi battles. Would it then be considered in the NU tier, simply because no one ever uses it? According to the logic of the current tier system, it would be NU, but we all know its stats say otherwise.

See this is the flaw in your logic. If Arceus was not banned, people WOULD use it because its so good. If Arceus's usage falls and it drops into NU it would be because for whatever reason it turns out to be bad in OU.

The reason Cresselia is NU or UU or whatever is because in OU Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, Reunicles, Gengar, Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Hydreigon and so on keep a crushing grip on it. Having Cress on your team is a liability since these Pokemon are so common and can do so much damage with just one turn of setup.

So because of this, despite Cresselia's power people stopped using it and it dropped into UU.. or NU.. or something. OU is supposed to represent what people are using, not a power rating.

tldr version, tiers can not be based off power because it makes more sense to be usage based.

[the_green_thunder]

The reason Cresselia is NU or UU or whatever is because in OU Scizor, Forretress, Skarmory, Reunicles, Gengar, Tyranitar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Hydreigon and so on keep a crushing grip on it. Having Cress on your team is a liability since these Pokemon are so common and can do so much damage with just one turn of setup.

It makes a lot of sense when you put it that way Blue Harvest, and I suppose I do see the validity of usage based tiers. I guess it's just my own personal bias towards it that frustrates me so. I just can't bear to see pokes like Victini and Cress who have above average stats in UU.
I just like to see things in black and white (pun fully intended). Just seperate them into legendary and non-legendary and call it a day. That's wishful thinking of course, but I digress.

[jesusfreak94]

I just can't bear to see pokes like Victini and Cress who have above average stats in UU.

Guess how I felt to have my favorite Pokemon pushed to UU because of Infernape in Gen 4, and then get a tool in Gen 5 to make it OU worthy only to be banned to Ubers. But oh well.

Aside from that, I'd like to know what everyone's opinion is on Drizzle ever since the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban. Seeing as how the Swift Swim users tended to mask the other rain abusers before the ban, the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban has uncovered a long list of excellent rain sweepers and abusers apart from those that use Swift Swim. Many are proposing that Drizzle be banned altogether because the D+SwSw ban has made Drizzle no less broken due to the variety of other rain abusers.

What are your opinions on this? Is Drizzle more manageable without Swift Swim? Or is the sheer potential of PermaRain enough to ban it?

[kaiser soze]

I dont really have a problem with permanent weather (although sand can be annoying). swift swim is broken though once you realize kingdra will outrun all other dragons

[Skydra]

I do wish Swift Swim Kabutops (along with Drizzle) wasn't banned, because I really like it. It's not broken, but because of Kingdra it got banned too. Heck, even Luvdisk is banned with Swift Swim and Drizzle.

On that other topic, the only problem with basing tiers on usage is that Pokemon that would be fine in a lower tier as well are still banned.

[the_green_thunder]

Guess how I felt to have my favorite Pokemon pushed to UU because of Infernape in Gen 4, and then get a tool in Gen 5 to make it OU worthy only to be banned to Ubers. But oh well.

Which is what bugs me about the so-called "ban list" that Smogon has. Speed Boost Blaziken is amazing, but definitely not unbeatable. Heck, Sand Rush Excadrill is more broken than SB Blaziken. Which brings me to the topic of Drizzle...

Swift Swim + Drizzle should not be banned. Sand Rush + Sand Stream isn't. Yes, I know that only about 3 pokes get Sand Rush, compared to the numerous Swift Swimmers. But Drought + Chlorophyll has a lot of user too, and it's not banned. Again, sun isn't as viable as rain, but you see what I'm getting at. Bottom line, if Blaziken with Speed boost can get "banned", than ban Kingdra with Swift Swim only, not all Swift Swin users.

[LinksOcarina]

But speed boost Blaziken needs no setup, to boost it's speed. That is what makes it deadly.

I will say though Swift Swim/Drizzle is kind of an anomaly for weather teams, but I think the reason it's banned is because more than just Kingdra can utilize it.

33 Pokemon in the dex can use Swift Swim, around 11 of them are fairly dangerous, with Kingdra being the top of the list. Compare that to Sand Stream/Sand Rush....six pokemon can use it and only Excadrill is really viable in it. Chlorophyll is also interesting because most of the pokemon with that are utility or support, with the exceptions of Tangworth, Exeggutor, Shiftry, and Venusaur which are used more for fighting over setup.

So because of the sheer amount of pokemon that benefit from Swift Swim and Drizzle it makes more sense to ban the move than a whole group of pokemon.

[assassinsceptile]

Which is what bugs me about the so-called "ban list" that Smogon has. Speed Boost Blaziken is amazing, but definitely not unbeatable. Heck, Sand Rush Excadrill is more broken than SB Blaziken. Which brings me to the topic of Drizzle...

Swift Swim + Drizzle should not be banned. Sand Rush + Sand Stream isn't. Yes, I know that only about 3 pokes get Sand Rush, compared to the numerous Swift Swimmers. But Drought + Chlorophyll has a lot of user too, and it's not banned. Again, sun isn't as viable as rain, but you see what I'm getting at. Bottom line, if Blaziken with Speed boost can get "banned", than ban Kingdra with Swift Swim only, not all Swift Swin users.

It's banned because absolutely nothing in OU can switch into it and not lose, hell even ubers have a tough time even with Giratina and Lugia.

[d0nut]

It's banned because absolutely nothing in OU can switch into it and not lose, hell even ubers have a tough time even with Giratina and Lugia.

Pretty much...I've made it into the top 10 on Smogon's Ubers with little effort mainly by sweeping with Blaziken. The only thing commonly used that isn't OHKO'd in Ubers in the Sun after a SD is Giratina (including Giratina-O.)

Swift Swim + Drizzle should not be banned. Sand Rush + Sand Stream isn't. Yes, I know that only about 3 pokes get Sand Rush, compared to the numerous Swift Swimmers. But Drought + Chlorophyll has a lot of user too, and it's not banned. Again, sun isn't as viable as rain, but you see what I'm getting at. Bottom line, if Blaziken with Speed boost can get "banned", than ban Kingdra with Swift Swim only, not all Swift Swin users.

Drizzle + Swift Swim is in a leauge of its own next to Drought + Chlorohyll and Sand Stream + Sand Rush. The difference is Grass types don't get there STABs boosted by weather when they have Chlorophyll and neither does Excadrill or any other Sand Rush user. Swift Swimers get a boost to their Water STABs in the Rain which sets them a little higher than Chlorophyll / Sand Rush.

On Rain though, I've actually seen some people who think that the new Rain teams people run (ones without Swift Swimmers,) are better than the old Swift Swim teams. Theres a good chance that Drizzle will be banned altogether since several people prefer a metagame without weather, and some of them also wish to ban Drought, Sand Stream, and hell, a few people even want to ban Snow Warning. Of course, there are also several people who are completely fine with weather, but we'll see what happens.

Some of the other things which I think have a good shot of being banned are Thundurus, Garchomp, and Latios. Latios only needs a simple majority to go, so I think if anything that is what will make him go, though I've seen more and more people complain about Thundurus' lack of counters aside from Quagsire, and Garchomp turning the tides of matches based on SV hax, so they both have a good chance of getting banned. If weather gets banned, there might also be a retest of Manaphy and Blaziken since their tiering was affected by weather a great deal, though I'm sure Manaphy getting +3 from Tail Glow, and Blaziken will still be strong enough to beat most things in OU, so we'll see about them provided weather goes. There also seems to be a ton of people hating on ShellPassing as well since it takes no skill to use, and it wins matches against even the most well structured teams. Past that, most other nominations seem to be rediculous, like Lugia in OU and Tropius for Ubers...