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Thread: Official Serebii 5th Gen Tier List & Standard Rules Discussion Thread

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by waffle_x_v View Post
    ^ Well that's the problem. Certain pokemon aren't broken just because they have swift swim+Drizzle on their side. The most logical way to ban the pokemon is to test each of them autonomously. Swift swim isn't broken on luvdisc, kindra, perhaps. It makes no sense just outright banning the ability when evidently some pokemon can function well with it and not "break" the metagame.
    Except it's not. They're not going to go out of their way to create a multitude of complex bans so a minority of players who are complaining about a very small number of Pokemon being unable to use Swift Swim with Drizzle can be satisfied. That's just idiotic. Especially when said Pokemon would probably only see usage in lower tiers ... which, coincidentally, Politoed will be banned from. Smogon's entire policy this Generation goes against numerous complex bans, and doing this just creates more and more. I'm not going to go spouting the "slippery slope" argument, since I frankly think it's overused, but yeah. So basically, what you're implying to be the problem is actually the universal solution.

  2. #327
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    A silly question: Why is Blaziken banned?

  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runnerman View Post
    A silly question: Why is Blaziken banned?
    Speed boost, nuff said.
    You cant have somthing like that Jett around like Sonic The Hedgehog, and expect to have any chance of winning.


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  4. #329

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runnerman View Post
    A silly question: Why is Blaziken banned?

    I swear...why must someone ask this every single page.... Here's a few examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by spuds4ever View Post
    Just a question, why was Blaziken banned?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebbio View Post
    Blaziken kind of confused me. How?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulken View Post
    Forgive me for the noobish question, but why is Blaziken banned? Is it only if it has Speed Boost?
    Quote Originally Posted by HaZe In HD View Post
    But can someone explain why Blaziken is uber now?
    If people bothered to read even a page of this thread, they might have find out, but its because its offensive stats are very high, and it has very powerful STAB moves in Flare Blitz and HJK, and after a SD it is capable of OHKOing or 2HKOing virtually everything in the game. What makes it broken is the fact that Speed Boost allows it to also outspeed everything therefore destroying the tier. I think this is the last time I'll bother trying to spell that out in this thread though...its hopeless.
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  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sharpedo View Post
    Speed boost, nuff said.
    You cant have somthing like that Jett around like Sonic The Hedgehog, and expect to have any chance of winning.
    Cool, thanks. Sorry if it had been answered already, I'm getting errors viewing some of the pages.

  6. #331
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    You forgot to mention that people are too lazy to use Slowbro to counter it...
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  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoignantLyrics View Post
    Except it's not. They're not going to go out of their way to create a multitude of complex bans so a minority of players who are complaining about a very small number of Pokemon being unable to use Swift Swim with Drizzle can be satisfied. That's just idiotic. Especially when said Pokemon would probably only see usage in lower tiers ... which, coincidentally, Politoed will be banned from. Smogon's entire policy this Generation goes against numerous complex bans, and doing this just creates more and more. I'm not going to go spouting the "slippery slope" argument, since I frankly think it's overused, but yeah. So basically, what you're implying to be the problem is actually the universal solution.
    How is just banning a pokemon and not an ability a complex ban? Banning certain abilities together is a complex ban, banning individual Pokemon isn't. I don't understand where you got the notion that this suggestion is a complex ban. Who's to say that it's just a minority complaining? Who are to speak for everyone? The real idiocy is the complex ban crap. It makes no sense. Sure some Pokemon won't hit OU just because they can use swift swim but it will allow more diversity. Isn't that what we want?
    You seem to be contradicting yourself. At the beginning of your post you said that a "multitude of complex bans" is idiotic yet at the end you said that it's the "universal solution". Try to make your arguments more coherent. It's quite onerous to prove your point to someone when yours are still conflicting.

  8. #333
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    What about moves that decrease Accuracy. Sorry if this has already been asked, I didn't want to look through 17 pages. I'm assuming that they are also banned.

  9. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ai7iS View Post
    What about moves that decrease Accuracy. Sorry if this has already been asked, I didn't want to look through 17 pages. I'm assuming that they are also banned.
    Moves like Double Team are banned, but moves like Flash aren't.

  10. #335

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    Mew: 8 Ban, 18 Do Not Ban = 30.77% Ban
    Chansey: 14 Ban, 11 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 56% Ban
    Wobbuffet: 23 Ban, 2 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 92% Ban
    Staraptor: 22 Ban, 3 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 88% Ban
    Espeon: 24 Ban, 1 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 96% Ban
    Victini: 7 Ban, 19 Do Not Ban = 26.92% Ban

    Good bye Wobb, Star, and Espeon. Chansey will stay for another round at least. Apparently removing Sun was enough to nerf Victini for the time being, even if CB V-Create still destroys mostly everything. Mew stays too.
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  11. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cometk View Post
    Moves like Double Team are banned, but moves like Flash aren't.
    Primarily because they suck and you can just switch out.

  12. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Mew: 8 Ban, 18 Do Not Ban = 30.77% Ban
    Chansey: 14 Ban, 11 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 56% Ban
    Wobbuffet: 23 Ban, 2 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 92% Ban
    Staraptor: 22 Ban, 3 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 88% Ban
    Espeon: 24 Ban, 1 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 96% Ban
    Victini: 7 Ban, 19 Do Not Ban = 26.92% Ban

    Good bye Wobb, Star, and Espeon. Chansey will stay for another round at least. Apparently removing Sun was enough to nerf Victini for the time being, even if CB V-Create still destroys mostly everything. Mew stays too.
    Never had a problem with Staraptor myself. Then again, I had Rhyperior on every team. Espeon was annoying to deal with but managable. It'll probably be going to OU regardless though. Only saw Wobbuffet once but it didn't do much. It seems like it would pair well with something like Snorlax. Maybe even Tickle something to -6 then send in CB Escavalier and Pursuit it.

    Victini isn't broken but I still hate the ***. Happy Mew's staying but it'll probably be gone next round. Chansey's a mixed bag. If it gets banned next round Snorlax will be the immediate replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by a person View Post
    Primarily because they suck and you can just switch out.
    Yeah, pretty much.

  13. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cometk View Post
    Never had a problem with Staraptor myself. Then again, I had Rhyperior on every team. Espeon was annoying to deal with but managable. It'll probably be going to OU regardless though. Only saw Wobbuffet once but it didn't do much. It seems like it would pair well with something like Snorlax. Maybe even Tickle something to -6 then send in CB Escavalier and Pursuit it.

    Victini isn't broken but I still hate the ***. Happy Mew's staying but it'll probably be gone next round. Chansey's a mixed bag. If it gets banned next round Snorlax will be the immediate replacement.
    I feel the same in many ways, only I didn't run Rhyperior for Staraptor. For Espeon being OU its not really a matter of probably, its just a matter of next months statistics being released here in a few days. It jumped all the way to something like 28 this past month so its practically guaranteed to be OU in time. I ran into a few Wobbs, and they weren't really a huge problem, but then again I never ran stall, which was one of the big arguements people had against it from what I heard. It supposedly made stall unviable. Timid Wobb could outspeed several of the tiers common stall pokes, Encore them, then Tickle everything then finish them with Pursuit pokes like Escavalier like you mentioned. Chansey will probably be much worse now without Wobb since it along with its other stall buddies will be more useable.
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  14. #339

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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    Mew: 8 Ban, 18 Do Not Ban = 30.77% Ban
    Chansey: 14 Ban, 11 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 56% Ban
    Wobbuffet: 23 Ban, 2 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 92% Ban
    Staraptor: 22 Ban, 3 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 88% Ban
    Espeon: 24 Ban, 1 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain = 96% Ban
    Victini: 7 Ban, 19 Do Not Ban = 26.92% Ban

    Good bye Wobb, Star, and Espeon. Chansey will stay for another round at least. Apparently removing Sun was enough to nerf Victini for the time being, even if CB V-Create still destroys mostly everything. Mew stays too.
    I'm kinda sad about Mew remaining unbanned (I voted ban r1 and didn't ladder round 2 since I was gone the last two weeks of the round), but I guess the meta shifted a bit to deal with it and now it's not as big of an issue as it was earlier.

    Other than that, pretty much what was anticipated. This sort of clears up the tier a bit, though it's still kinda unstable, imo, especially with Wobb gone, since now stall will be ridiculous. Honestly, it has tons of excellent Pokes available, and the best stallbreaking strategies left are either heavy offense or TauntWoW Mew, the latter of which every stall team is extremely well prepared for.

  15. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0nut View Post
    For Espeon being OU its not really a matter of probably, its just a matter of next months statistics being released here in a few days. It jumped all the way to something like 28 this past month so its practically guaranteed to be OU in time.
    Hm, didn't notice. All I saw last month was it jumped to somewhere around 40. All I saw this month was that Magnezone hopped to 20. Might start running Shed Shell again on Skarmory now.

  16. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cometk View Post
    Hm, didn't notice. All I saw last month was it jumped to somewhere around 40. All I saw this month was that Magnezone hopped to 20. Might start running Shed Shell again on Skarmory now.
    Yea, people either realized just how useful Magic Bounce is, or making his egg moves such as Wish and Baton Pass legal along side MB increased his usefulness. Either way, he is climbing up there. The other notable things from this last month which might change the current tiers are Celebi and Mamoswine, which jumped way up in OU. Virizion shot up to like 40, but I remember seeing Celebi just above it at 39. Nasty Plot Celebi isn't so underrated now. Mamo was also like 40 something because apparently people hate Dragons again, or they want to take out Thundurus. Probably a little bit of both. Since Chomp as a Ground type left, Mamo and Landorus both shot up as powerful Ground types. Also Whimsi dropped to 61 or something so its gonna leave. At least it will work better in UU where the only thing with Magic Guard is Clef, which is currently outclassed in most ways by Chansey, and there are less Grass types to deal with, only Shaymin, Abomasnow, and Roserade that I can think of. Like Epic Eevee says, this next round is bound to be much more stall oriented than the previous rounds.
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  17. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by waffle_x_v View Post
    How is just banning a pokemon and not an ability a complex ban? Banning certain abilities together is a complex ban, banning individual Pokemon isn't. I don't understand where you got the notion that this suggestion is a complex ban. Who's to say that it's just a minority complaining? Who are to speak for everyone? The real idiocy is the complex ban crap. It makes no sense. Sure some Pokemon won't hit OU just because they can use swift swim but it will allow more diversity. Isn't that what we want?
    You seem to be contradicting yourself. At the beginning of your post you said that a "multitude of complex bans" is idiotic yet at the end you said that it's the "universal solution". Try to make your arguments more coherent. It's quite onerous to prove your point to someone when yours are still conflicting.
    Because the Pokemon deemed broken through Drizzle + Swift Swim isn't down to those abilities individually, it's the combination of the two which pushes them over the edge. What I saw you were suggesting was banning Swift Swim on individual Pokemon, or banning them because Swift Swim used with Drizzle made them broken. So, you're either saying we introduce yet another complex ban by allowing Swift Swim pokemon x, y and z, but not a and b to be used with Drizzle, or ban pokemon a and b on the grounds that two abilities being present on the team makes them broken. Both are bad suggestions, the former being classified as yet another complex ban, the latter is unjustified, as those Pokemon are only broken with the presence of other factors, so preventing those conditions is a far more logical approach. If it wasn't just a minority complaining, Smogon would have had to take action. Almost everyone is happy with the ban, as it is the most fair way of going about the problem. Especially when the Pokemon you're arguing in favour of aren't really OU viable anyway. Nobody speaks for everyone, but Smogon gives "everyone" a voice. They open discussion threads before their suspect testing periods in which the community as a whole can discuss metagame trends and what could be introduced or removed. While creating complex bans may allow more diversity, it also makes the game more confusing, and will introduce the "slippery slope" argument. Nerfing Pokemon x y and z in accordance to the current rules so they can be used will just open arguments such as "So why not nerf Ubers a b and c to be used in OU"? Smogon want to avoid that at all costs, so they limit the number of complex bans they enforce unless it is literally the least hindering way to go about providing a solution.

    Introducing a number of complex bans is idiotic, as it opens the slippery slope argument. However, you were implying that banning Swift Swim and Drizzle together was a "problem", because it meant your beloved RU (NU) Pokemon can't be used in an environment they shouldn't even be considered for. What I was saying is that your so called "problem" was the universal solution for the metagame at that point - it was the most reasonable proposal, even if it was a complex ban. What you're suggesting is that we replace it with either a multitude of complex bans, or unjust ones, both of which Smogon wants to avoid.

  18. #343
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    Why isnt Latios banned?

  19. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoignantLyrics View Post
    Because the Pokemon deemed broken through Drizzle + Swift Swim isn't down to those abilities individually, it's the combination of the two which pushes them over the edge. What I saw you were suggesting was banning Swift Swim on individual Pokemon, or banning them because Swift Swim used with Drizzle made them broken. So, you're either saying we introduce yet another complex ban by allowing Swift Swim pokemon x, y and z, but not a and b to be used with Drizzle, or ban pokemon a and b on the grounds that two abilities being present on the team makes them broken. Both are bad suggestions, the former being classified as yet another complex ban, the latter is unjustified, as those Pokemon are only broken with the presence of other factors, so preventing those conditions is a far more logical approach.
    Let me stop you right there. There seems to be a misconception. The proposal was to ban a Pokemon entirely if it is broken. This means the Pokemon itself would be completely out of the tier. The way smogon bans a Pokemon is that it bans it on how it performs at it's best. The suggestion was to ban the Pokemon entirely, ergo no complex bans! What you're suggesting as the "universal solution" is similar to banning speed boost entirely just so that people can use blaze, blazekin in UU. THAT'S idiotic.
    If it wasn't just a minority complaining, Smogon would have had to take action. Almost everyone is happy with the ban, as it is the most fair way of going about the problem. Especially when the Pokemon you're arguing in favour of aren't really OU viable anyway. Nobody speaks for everyone, but Smogon gives "everyone" a voice. They open discussion threads before their suspect testing periods in which the community as a whole can discuss metagame trends and what could be introduced or removed.
    I'll give you credit there. Not many are speaking up. But the few that do talk don't represent the entire consensus.



    I'm not going to bother replying to the rest of your post because this is simple and non-repetitive, plus it clears all the points you mentioned.

  20. #345
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    Quick question...why is Alakazam RU?
    It has the 11th highest SpAtk of all of the pokemon.
    I may sound noobish, but I'm not sure how the whole tier separation goes....
    I know Alakazam isn't as common in 5th Gen as in 4th Gen, but still...
    Can anyone solve my conundrum?




  21. #346
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    It doesn't really have anything to distinguish itself from other psychic types, atm.
    If you notice, it has a nice DW ability. It's OU in smogon's DW tier. Once it's ability is released it'll see much more usage.
    For now it remains quite outclasses in this current metagame...
    Tiers are separated by usage. No one uses Alakazam it goes to NU or RU.
    It doesn't mean its useless it's just that no one cares to use it.

  22. #347
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    Because Psychic is one of the worst offensive types in the game and it can't switch in at all.

  23. #348
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    I believe that all Weather teams should be banned, as well as Kyruem should be Uber, because it has just as high stats as many of the ubers that are uber now.
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  24. #349
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    Kyurem. No. It sucks. SR weakness, weakness to 3 priority moves, and a redundant typing. Weather shouldn't be banned. It's not broken in the least.

  25. #350

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekromaster826 View Post
    I believe that all Weather teams should be banned, as well as Kyruem should be Uber, because it has just as high stats as many of the ubers that are uber now.
    In a nutshell, what the poster above said, but also, stats alone are not enough to dictate an arguement about anything being Uber, especially not just the BST. 660 sounds incredible, but when you look at the way the stats are distributed, its disappointing. It barely falls behind the mark between fast and slow, its offenses are balanced, though its movepool (which is also quite lackluster I might add) screams special sweeper, and Mence usually does mixed better with access to more moves and slightly higher speed. Ice is simply the worst typing to have since it brings one resistance, and tons of common weaknesses, which undermines Kyurem's otherwise decent bulk. Ice is good offensively, but considering how similar the coverage is to his Dragon typing, it is a bit redundant.

    Weather is powerful, but there are several ways to check it. There is no one pokemon that can check all weather, but it is still very possible to design a team which can handle each form of weather, along with all other common threats in OU. Just learn how to build a decent team and suddenly it won't seem so bad.
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